Granderson: “That’s it. Unless it rains again.”
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Aug 29, 2011 
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Choosing a makeup date for Saturday’s inevitable rainout became something of a soap opera here in Baltimore. The Yankees didn’t want to lose their September 8 off day, and they seemed prepared to fight the decision, but the two sides came to an agreement after the Orioles agreed to make it an afternoon game, leaving the Yankees an evening flight to the West Coast.
“That’s it,” Curtis Granderson said. “Unless it rains again.”
Essentially, Granderson said, the Yankees explored every option and decided there was no better alternative out there.
“After speaking to the union,” Granderson said, “with the process of how it was all going to go down, the understanding after speaking to them between games was, considering there were common off days left, it had to be scheduled on at least one of those games. The option of scheduling at the end of the season, which was our third and very slim chance, was out of the question because we did share common off days.
“So, with that being understood, the best option remaining at that point was the 8th that had been announced. Then it was a matter of getting the time changed. That’s where the Orioles, I think, stepped up and said, ‘We’re going to make this a day game.’ With all that being said, they worked with us on that, and we’re appreciative that given all the opportunities, it’s the best-case scenario for both teams, and we’ve got to play it.”
Howard,
Did u run distance? I am a bit of a fanatic myself. My career just ended but i was a Shot Put, Discus, and Hammer thrower.
Erin August 29th, 2011 at 11:58 am
Bautista has almost no shot IMO. Besides his underwhelming second half, as soon as those sign stealing allegations came out that ended any hopes he had for winning MVP.
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According to who? That is absurd. There were no such allegations against Bautista and that is just speculation and has nothing to do with his performance.
I’m glad that whole mess got settled, and that Baltimore agreed to change it to an afternoon game.
Being a player rep must be the most time-consumming, thankless job a player has. It has to be a distraction as far as taking away prep time for the games.
portsGeek August 29th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
blake… I agree with you completely about the RBI per RBI opportunity calculation..
98/360= 27.2% Granderson
82/306= 26.7% Bautista
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Logically one could assume that if Bautista had another (54) AB to equalize, he might make up the (16) RBI shortfall.
According to who? That is absurd. There were no such allegations against Bautista and that is just speculation and has nothing to do with his performance.
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OK, fine. I just don’t think he’ll get it.
“Logically one could assume that if Bautista had another (54) AB to equalize, he might make up the (16) RBI shortfall. ”
Yea but your point was that Granderson only has more RBI because he’s had more chances……which isn’t true.. he’s knocking in runs at the same (and actually) a better rate than Bautista per chance. He’s had more chances yes…..but he’s made the most of them
Erin, you’ll appreciate this little stat on Cano. He’s the first Yankee to ever start off with 7 years of 35 or more doubles. If he stays on course and injury free, he’s going to challenge the team record and possibly 700 doubles.
Blake it was Joe Posnanski’s point. I just offered it for discussion purposes since he is an actual AL MVP voter in Kansas City. Here is the entire article if interested.
http://joeposnanski.si.com/201.....yer-award/
If Granderson hits 45 homers, drives in 130, scores 150, and steals 30…….and can get his BA up around .285-290 then I don’t see how anybody coukd overlook him given that he’s doing it at a premium defensive position.
GB-that’s awesome. The first one? So cool.
blake August 29th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
“Logically one could assume that if Bautista had another (54) AB to equalize, he might make up the (16) RBI shortfall. ”
Yea but your point was that Granderson only has more RBI because he’s had more chances……which isn’t true.. he’s knocking in runs at the same (and actually) a better rate than Bautista per chance. He’s had more chances yes…..but he’s made the most of them
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“That’s absurd”. You can’t twist and cherry pick numbers to suit your need to make a point. Only he can do that.
Lest anyone question Posnanski’s impartiality here is a quote from him on the AL MVP.
“Interesting, I think. The near-unanimous choice for the best closer ever, Mariano Rivera, has never finished higher than ninth in the MVP voting. There’s a weird thing that goes on with the Yankees and awards. There’s this constant drumbeat about how Yankees players are overrated and over-decorated, but Derek Jeter has never won an MVP award, Mariano Rivera has never won a Cy Young and was never even close in the MVP voting, and the only Yankees player to win an MVP award the last 25 years was Alex Rodriguez, who supposedly gets no respect. Strange.”
Logically one could assume that if Bautista had another (54) AB to equalize, he might make up the (16) RBI shortfall.
No, logically… that’s not how percentages work at all. he would have to outpace himself over those 54AB’s to “catch” Granderson’s production.
If you want to do “RBI opportunity %” (rbi efficiency?), you should probably do it by PA (plate appearances) or PA – IBB and not just AB.
Also…
http://www.onionsportsnetwork......ons,21214/
They must have interviewed some folks around here for this.
Wcyf,
I understand…..its just that on that specific example Joe Pos really doesn’t have a valid point there.
Erin, the Yankee record is 534, I thinkm by Gehrig. Cano is at 275 now at age 28. He haverages 44 a year with none in the 50s. He’s consistant in that. Just something to look at. The 700 doubles, though would be impressive. Only 4 players and 2 of those were in the deadball era (pre-1920) and another on artificial turf for most of his career.
Howard,
Do you follow anything professionally these days? The World Championships are finally getting TV coverage.
==REPOST==
I don’t totally understand nor totally agree with all of the “sophisticated modern stats” like RunsCreated, WAR, WPA, WPA/LI, RE24, or BtRuns. .. especially since many of them are so dependent on complicated, non-intuitive formulas.
And, I know the “non-stat-heads” here do not like them at all– “the stats don’t tell you many things that you can see with your naked eye”.
I do like OPS. But I’d like to see some new stat which takes OPS and finds some way to add/subtract in RBI-Success-Rate, SB, CS, and DP. I have played around with this (nothing I want to publish), and it does affect rankings somewhat, though not like night and day. Granderson does move up.
And what about a simpler RunsCreated = R + RBI – HR (HR subtracted to eliminate double counting). Granderson is “off the charts” in this new SportsGeek RC stat!!
BUT.. I do think it would be really interesting to see the “sophisticated modern stats” side by side for the major MVP contenders.. AND then, have a friendly discussion about what the comparisons say about the various candidates, and whether these stats enlighten our perspectives at all. Would Granderson move up higher in the list, would A-Gon move lower, how would Bautista be affected?
AND, would that discussion encourage us to better understand the value of these stats.
GB-thanks for the info.
Since Heyman’s MVP pick is Granderson does that make him smarter or just less of a Yankee hater?:)
This is how you honestly represent numbers.
Let’s call it RBI efficiency (RBIe, I like it)?
(RBI * 100) / (PA – IBB)
Bautista – 529 PA, 19 IBB, 83 RBI – 16.2%
Granderson – 578 PA, 0 IBB, 107 RBI – 18.5%
Just with men on (essentially eliminating solo HR’s):
Bautista – 246 PA, 18 IBB, 58 RBI – 25.4%
Granderson – 276 PA, 0 IBB, 86 RBI – 31.1%
They are not particularly close in terms of average production.
if its a close call between a gold glove cf who also has a speed game and a slugging 1b, ill take the cf every time, its so much more demanding. and gonzo is a big minus on the bases and cant steal at all. grandy has no minuses in his game.
Erin, just wanted to brighten your dreary work day. I still remember those days, so, now my days are spent spreading cheer and happiness to those less fortunate….the working class.
I’d like to think Granderson being a center fielder will give him an edge, but why should it when playing shortstop has never helped Jeter (finishing behind Tex and Morneau in his two best years)?
And it’s kind of ridiculous, because getting crazy good offensive numbers out of elite position is exactly what puts the Yankees a cut above the rest of the league, yet the players who make that happen never get recognized for their value.
ID,
Thanks….those numbers are more up date.
GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
Erin, just wanted to brighten your dreary work day. I still remember those days, so, now my days are spent spreading cheer and happiness to those less fortunate?.the working class.
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How kind of you
Another compelling case for Granderson is the way he has performed in ARod’s absence. He basically has provided ARod-like power to complement Tex’s, which is why the offense hasn’t missed a beat.
Nothing like having back that right-handed power bat, though. Can’t imagine how potent we’d be with all cylinders firing. I hope Alex can become himself in that regard; the prospect that he may not is the reason I have been so ardent about Montero getting acclimated…
I think Granderson’s numbers stand out more in relief, with Alex having been out, to recommend him even more for the MVP…
Jeter got robbed in 2006 and 2009…..robbed I tell you.
This sounds like it’s straight out of a Disney movie
Joba_62 Morning! Dreams are an amazing thing and no one can take them away from u unless u take them away from yourself. Never stop dreaming!
Everyone has to do their fair share, Erin.
West Coast Yankee Fan August 29th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
portsGeek August 29th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
blake… I agree with you completely about the RBI per RBI opportunity calculation..
98/360= 27.2% Granderson
82/306= 26.7% Bautista
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Logically one could assume that if Bautista had another (54) AB to equalize, he might make up the (16) RBI shortfall.
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Yes, but the main reason for the discrepancy between Grandy’s AB’s & Bautista’s is the large # of walks Bautista has drawn. If he drew less walks to make up the # of AB’s (and therefor, according to your logic, make up the difference in RBI’s), his OBP and OPS would both be lower. So Bautista would be closer to Grandy in RBI #’s but further behind him in OPS #’s. No gain at all as far as MVP goes.
boy arod’s teammates are carrying him this year. if the team was in danger of missing the postseason, i think it would be open season on arod around here, but hes basically an afterthought this year.
Yankees Curtis Granderson’s inside-the-park homer made @MLBNetwork’s Plays of the Week … http://atmlb.com/qpsiNK
Joba is becoming a real concern. He sounds like Jiminy Cricket giving life lessons to Pinocchio.
He’s gonna burst into the chorus of “Don’t Stop Believin’” any second now.
U think joba has a ‘positivity quote’ calendar he quotes daily?
I hope he subscribes to 50% of the philosophy he’s pushing
arjay August 29th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
He?s gonna burst into the chorus of ?Don?t Stop Believin?? any second now.
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Or, using GB’s theory that he’s becoming Jiminy Cricket, “When You Wish Upon a Star”
“Yes, but the main reason for the discrepancy between Grandy’s AB’s & Bautista’s is the large # of walks Bautista has drawn.”
Another reason for the discrepancy is that Bautista has played 9 fewer games. In which case, he should be penalized, not rewarded. Then again, the voters didn’t seem to care when Hamilton and Mauer missed a whole month of the season the past two years.
I suppose Jiminy Cricket giving life lessons to Pinocchio is better than Kermit giving life lessons to scooter. If Kermit wanted to really help the kid, he’d have Ms Piggy give him lessons that he could really use.
The silliest thing of all is using UZR to try to discredit Granderson’s defense…I have to say, I was shaking my head when I heard Ron Darling’s quote that Gardner is the better centerfielder…I don’t think Darling has any idea how good Granderson is, and why would he? He’s busy with the Mets…he’s merely invoking and blindly accepting a very flawed stastic and then making a careless statement…
Granderson’s arm is his only real weakness out there…the fact that he is better tracking balls over his head than coming in on them is way more important than the reverse…he’s so good going back, in fact, that the Yankees made the adjustment and have him play shallow…not many CFs could play as shallow as he and get to balls over their heads, and that range off into the gaps…Curtis Granderson is unusually, yes UNUSUALLY, gifted at reading where balls with greater velocity are going to wind up and ditto on his ability to get off the ball like lightning…
His defense is taking a hit based on an imaginary statistic, and people who you’d think should know better are exposing their lack of understanding, or they just are accepting hearsay without really knowing much about his work in center…he’s outstanding.
Who does everyone think is the one guy the Yankees can ill afford to lose? CC, D Rob, Mo, Cano, Grandy, or maybe someone else?
I think it’s probably CC just because he is going to have to be everything that an Ace is in October for it to be successful.
Erin August 29th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
This sounds like it’s straight out of a Disney movie
Joba_62 Morning! Dreams are an amazing thing and no one can take them away from u unless u take them away from yourself. Never stop dreaming!
///
Joba intuitively understands what quantum physics has already proven: some dreams are as real as waking life.
GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
I suppose Jiminy Cricket giving life lessons to Pinocchio is better than Kermit giving life lessons to scooter. If Kermit wanted to really help the kid, he?d have Ms Piggy give him lessons that he could really use.
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Miss Piggy did take Scooter under her wing a few times, but it was usually to get him to convince Kermit to feature her in the show more.
J Alfred,
I don’t know if people really pay attention to the defensive stats……but they do pay attention from what I can tell to WAR and that’s where the defense stats hurt him because they bring down that number as defense figures significantly into that calculation.
So basically…..highly questionable defensive metrics bring down his WAR…..hopefully people voting on this stuff get that.
Ms Piggy with wings, huh? So, pigs can fly after all.
I don’t think MVP voters pay attention to WAR; I bet most of them barely know what it is.
The reality is that Bautista is batting .313 and is leading the AL in “ALL” the traditional and respected triple slash categories, OBO/SLG and a blistering 1.092 OPS. Add to that his home run total which is basically a back and forth to lead the AL with Granderson and I don’t see how any “OBJECTIVE” fan could assume this is a slam dunk for Grandy.
GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 12:53 pm
Ms Piggy with wings, huh? So, pigs can fly after all.
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LOL
Yeah, somehow I figured you wouldn’t let that one go.
“I don’t think MVP voters pay attention to WAR; I bet most of them barely know what it is.”
I think we might be surprised on that……maybe you’re right but a lot of this stuff is becoming more and more mainstream. The scary thing is that they may know what it is……but may not do the research to see if the number makes sense and if it matches up with what they’ve seen by watching the games.
Typo above – OBP
Bautista is also hitting like .260 something in the 2nd half with only 6 homers.
blake, that’s right, they’re built into WAR, which is what people like to trumpet.
I’m not optimistic that people voting get it, though. If I’m the Yankees, I would launch an effort of some kind, on some level, to discredit UZR. I don’t think that would happen, though, since the GM s may be a fan of it, since WAR is such a big deal with the briefcase GMs these days…
Someone should write some seminal piece on it..the challenge is, once it gets into minutia, you lose the fan with a casual interest in statistics…in order to knock something down, you need to explain what it is, in the first place, and that’s where you lose your mainstream audience…it’s why scientists who have already disproven Einstein’s Theory of Relativity in an important category don’t get any play, even though it has altered the very unstable ground people base their beliefs on reality on…there’s just not enough interest, and there is political resistance, to some things…
If ESPN is ring leading the WAR angle against Granderson, the soundbites will reverberate and won’t be examined, just accepted based on sheer repetition. I can’t even believe that a huge strength in Graderson’s play is being aggressively floated as a weakness…just SMH…but it’s hard to combat for said reasons, I think…
GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
I suppose Jiminy Cricket giving life lessons to Pinocchio is better than Kermit giving life lessons to scooter. If Kermit wanted to really help the kid, he?d have Ms Piggy give him lessons that he could really use.
*************
The next time you complain about others not talking about baseball I’ll remind you of your hypocrisy. If you don’t mind?
*minutiae, that is…
blake August 29th, 2011 at 1:00 pm
Bautista is also hitting like .260 something in the 2nd half with only 6 homers.
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Hence the award being given out when the season is over based on cumulative stats for the entire year.
“So, pigs can fly after all.”
Of course they can, didn’t you all see Chris Brown perform last night
(that one was for you Erin)
Erin August 29th, 2011 at 11:34 am
Early DVR alert- Tex and Alex will be on this coming Sunday’s episode of Entourage.
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Erin, I watched the advance preview last night on HBOGo, the episode is really good-not only are Tex and Alex on but Amar’e and Michael Strahan both get the chance to tell Turtle the same thing everyone else does (I’ll leave that to the imagination).
There are also a couple of surprises, the final season started out slowly but has been much better the last couple of weeks plus next week, they could have easily had another 4 episodes to close this one out-there is no way they can wrap everything up in 30 minutes.
Tell that to Cone, Prufrock. I love Cone, but he is too prescriptive about UZR and doesn’t consider its flaws. Thing is all this stuff is useful used in context with other support, but like everything people are all in or all out, rather than shooting for a happy medium.
blake August 29th, 2011 at 12:59 pm
“I don’t think MVP voters pay attention to WAR; I bet most of them barely know what it is.”
I think we might be surprised on that……maybe you’re right but a lot of this stuff is becoming more and more mainstream. The scary thing is that they may know what it is……but may not do the research to see if the number makes sense and if it matches up with what they’ve seen by watching the games.
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To paraphrase Gen. George S. Patton:
“The bilious b**tards who wrote that stuff about WAR for the Stat Freaks don’t know anything more about real real baseball than they do about “pleasuring a woman.”
RiverAveBlues Andy Pettitte returns to pinstripes to…model for Weatherproof?s fall ad campaign? http://blog.aglamslam.com/?p=7950
“OBJECTIVE” fan
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Is there such a thing?
Shame Spencer August 29th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
?So, pigs can fly after all.?
Of course they can, didn?t you all see Chris Brown perform last night (that one was for you Erin)
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Very nice Shame.
MG-very cool! I can’t wait to see it.
The scary thing is that they may know what it is……but may not do the research to see if the number makes sense and if it matches up with what they’ve seen by watching the games.
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Was just going to respond in kind to Niblick, Blake. It’s this insidious and flawed stat that hides inside a theorem that, in itself, undermines the entire outcome…it’s like any flawed mathematical proof that goes unexamined..but it could cost a player an award he may unreservedly deserve, if things continue their present course…
Lol Erin, I figured you might be the only one on here that knew what I was referencing
Who or what is a Chris Brown?
Banuelos and Betances pitch in a twin bill for Scranton tonight against Pawtucket.
Ok so I’m scared to ask, but I never understood URZ and would like a dumbed down explanation..
From what I do understand the stat divides the field into a certain number of zones, figures out how many balls fall into said zone, how many times and out is made when a ball falls into the same zone, and then compares the average of all the outs made in that zone by other players to the player in question….. is that about right?
ankeefeminista August 29th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
Tell that to Cone, Prufrock. I love Cone, but he is too prescriptive about UZR and doesn’t consider its flaws. Thing is all this stuff is useful used in context with other support, but like everything people are all in or all out, rather than shooting for a happy medium.
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Yankfem, Cone is peerless, IMO, when it comes to providing insight on pitching. He’s just fantastic. But I wholly agree that his touting UZR, considering how flawed it is and that the creators themselves are apologetic about it – and the fact that Granderson is the poster boy for a living refutation of it – is pretty disappointing. I have to say, I don’t think UZR is in the least, useful…defense, that isn’t pitching (far more measurable), resists measurment…no metric can force it into a stasis to allow for measurment…it’s why UZR is so woefully silly…the truth inevitably contradicts it, and dramatically…
Don’t forget that Hamilton basically won the MVP on 2 hot months last year.
Bautista since the ASB: .254/.412/.483 6HR, 18RBI
He’s riding high on his ridiculous April/May… he’ll have to improve his pace of late to keep up with Granderson though.
No one is trying to discredit the great season both of these players are having… so don’t try to turn it into that. The bigger point being made here by most of these posts is that Bautista is not a lock for MVP, not the fact that Granderson might/should/could be.
GB, he’s that punk singer who beat up on his former girlfriend Rhianna.
“Who or what is a Chris Brown?”
—————-
Some guy who’s famous for Ike Turner-ing Rihanna.
Shame-yeah, I was kind of hoping something would go wrong and he’d fall. Does that make me a bad person?
GB-you don’t want to know. Let’s just say he’s a total idiot and that’s putting it mildly.
Thanks, JC. Never understood how they could call what these “artists” screech out, singing.
Thanks, Kids. That was more than I ever cared to know about slugs.
Erin – My sentiments exactly.
GB – They don’t even have to screech out anything anymore.. lipsync kings and queens!! (aside from Adele who continues to embarrass every other artist whenever she performs live)
Ok, next question. Who or what is Rihanna?
shame – The types of batted balls that UZR processes are ground balls, bunt ground balls, outfield line drives, and outfield fly balls (including so-called pop flies).
From: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....zr-primer/
Shame-Adele was the best part of that show by far. Love her.
Shame, let me hear some Willie, Waylon and The Boys, Buddy Holly or Hoagy Carmichael instead.
If I had a natural gas generator, it would have been my MVP…8 inches of basement water and counting
WAR is not always what it seems. This is why I never understood people that blamed for “being buried in the stats” because… they likely understand and know how to properly illustrate them better than the average person who looks at 3 numbers and goes “this one’s bigger!”.
Another large problem that people have with WAR is that different sites calculate it differently. Fangraphs uses park adjustments, normalized HR rates for pitchers, baserunning runs, and UZR. Baseball-Reference leaves a lot of those factors out. Best thing to look at is each sites oWAR (just the offensive component of WAR, sometimes referred to as RAA or something similar) as the other factors are very flukey easily misconstrued.
Here’s something easy to read with good examples of how WAR can show a players true value: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.c.....xplain-war
GB, I would kill to be at that DH, but alas must work. Too bad the feed from PNC will be virtually unwatchable. How bad did PNC field get hit, I wonder. It doesn’t drain well, but maybe it is a non-issue? I am not liking how all our high milb teams don’t look like they will be making the playoffs? Trenton esp. suffered once the Killer B’s got called up. Hoping to maybe get to a SI playoff game.
“Ok so I’m scared to ask, but I never understood URZ and would like a dumbed down explanation..”
I think the sabermetricians gather around the bonfire, recite the pledge, then draw numbers from a hat and assign the positive numbers to the players they like…..and the negative ones to Derek Jeter and Curtis Granderson
I absolutely adore Curtis Granderson! It sounds as if the Yankees have chosen the right man for the job of player rep. He sounded like a professional conflict mediator in that interview.
Tarheel In NYC August 29th, 2011 at 1:33 pm
. He sounded like a professional conflict mediator in that interview.
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The Grandyman can do it all.
Yankeefem, from what Norris was saying, the field is in great shape. Yeah that stationary camera is a killer. Still no idea where they’ll play next year, but, hope they have a better video set-up.
Yankeefem, this year, looks like only the GCL, FSL and SI teams will be in the playoffs. Not sure even a end of the season sweep can help Scranton now.
Blake, they also pray to the statue of Bill James/Tom Tango (who are joined at the hip and head. Of course, you’d never know if it was actually them or statues anyway. both are stone cold idiots to think only computers can judge a players skills and worth to a team.
But just so I’m clear… the zones that are created to determine URZ are totally arbitrary and must vary from ballpark to ballpark in certain areas… yes? No?
“Both are stone cold idiots to think only computers can judge a players skills and worth to a team.”
I can’t wait to see that movie Moneyball because I love Brad Pitt but boy do I wish they would stop making it sound like that strategy actually won something for Billy Beane and all those who followed in his footsteps….
I have an idea about MVP. Why don’t we let the season finish? Their is another month for players to succeed or fail and their teams to rise or fall.
Billy Beane is the Joe Maddon/Tony LaRussa of GMs. They think they invented baseball.
GB,
I don’t get the Beane hype. When have his drafts or free agent signings in recent years paid off? He gets the reputation from three pitchers 10 years ago. None of tghe players discussed inMoneyball panned out that I can recall.
And we on the board know you and Abner Doubleday laid out the first field.
shame spencer – yes the zones are based around the “natural starting position” for each position on the field. Some parks with odd angles may have extra zones (anything outside a players normally expected range goes in the OOZ category in the UZR breakdown).
it does not take into account where the fielder actually started the play, so if there was a shift on and a player ran all the way back to his normal position to make a play, he only gets credit for a regular play. It also doesn’t help if you are say… a CF winged by 2 fast or semi-decent outfielders, as you won’t have to make as many “out of zone” plays.
These limitations are why I (and others) and looking forward to the FieldFX system that is being put in place that will track players starting position in the field, batted ball speeds and all sorts of other fun things.
UZR has its uses, but its certainly not a number that can just be pointed at and used to blindly compare players (especially at different positions).
Can you imagine being a ball player and every day having your name announced for all to hear…”Now batting, #58, Cheslor Cuthbert.” I’m afraid I be one of those kids that killed their parents for hanging a name like that on my.
ok austin, so while the rest of the baseball world discusses and decides who the mvp is, yankees fans should just sit on their hands and expect an objective and totally fair decision will be made by everyone else after the season is over. yeah, thats what always happens! LOL
nobody talk about mvp anymore the season isnt over. and tell EVERYBODY on mlb, the fan and espn to stop talking about it also.
Beane got lucky and had 3 pitchers develop at the same time. (Hudson, Zito, Mulder) that’s why they won for awhile……Beane has been an OK GM that has managed to tread water with a low payroll. I don’t see how that warrants having Brad Pitt play you in a movie.
Thanks, Mac, though Doubleday didn’t know any more about baseball than West Coast Red Sox Fan or Stuart Little does. Alexander Cartwright helped me lay out the field and write a few simple rules down. Then Bill James came along and scrwed everything up.
Who would Brad Pitt play in the Lohud Blog movie? Anyone else care to venture some guesses about who would play some of our borad members?
Is brad Pitt an actor?
Brad Pitt is best known for playing the role of “scared running little white boy” when Mike Tyson walked in on him and Robin Givens
GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 1:52 pm
Blake, they also pray to the statue of Bill James/Tom Tango (who are joined at the hip and head. Of course, you’d never know if it was actually them or statues anyway. both are stone cold idiots to think only computers can judge a players skills and worth to a team.
This is the bitter, old, ignorance that is stopping more useful statistics from becoming more mainstream. You can bury your head in the sand if you wish, but you are only making yourself be less informed than you could be.
Idiots will look at any statistic (WAR, UZR, AVG, RBI… whatever) and misrepresent and fail to qualify them to no end. Stat geeks are not the blind idiots that you old farts try to portray them to be, and take way more things into consideration than you ever do.
An idiot looks at 2 players and says “The one with more RBI is better” without also saying “but he had more at bats” or “he had more runners on base” or “he had more chances to drive in runs”.
An idiot looks at AVG and says “he’s not hitting” without taking walks and power into consideration.
An idiot does not use advanced statistics, because they are incapable of doing so.
This is why people fear them. You might actually have to know what you are talking about.
It’s way easier for people to just point at simple counting stats and be “kinda right”. Complacency never got us anywhere.
When you go to college, you didn’t drop out of calculus or physics because you learned how to add in the 2nd grade. You realize that there are better and more accurate ways to describe the world, and the old ways are inefficient. Saber-metrics is no different.
Ys Guy,
Okay, I will tell the baseball world that the most important games are yet to be played and statistics can markedly change. Should I tell you that as well?
If Boston wins the division one of their players will likely win. If the Yankees win, Granderson will likely win if stats don’t significantly change. If Bautista’s team finishes in fourth, he won’t win. The thing is, we don’t know what will happen and that is why people arguing who the MVP should be is premature. If one wants to argue MVP up until today, go for it, but that is not how or when the award is decided.
wait a minute….tony larussa didnt invent baseball??!??
Count this. Blow it out your….
I fear no numbers…..as long as I can use a calculator.
LaRussa didn’t invent baseball…..only how to overmanage it
GB7 – Ignorance at its finest. Kudos to you for being so proud of not knowing anything.
austin if you dont think that this and all the other discussions going on about the mvp influence how it turns out, you have you head in the sand (or someplace else)
GB7 – “The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.”
blake August 29th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
I fear no numbers?..as long as I can use a calculator.
**********************
My thoughts exactly
Irrelevant Discharge, believing in some idiots ideas of value and to follow him blindly without question is ignorance. Not believing in that hogwash isn’t ignorance. I trust my judgment more than his/their hokey formulas.
Irreverent Discourse August 29th, 2011 at 2:11 pm
GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 1:52 pm
Blake, they also pray to the statue of Bill James/Tom Tango (who are joined at the hip and head. Of course, you’d never know if it was actually them or statues anyway. both are stone cold idiots to think only computers can judge a players skills and worth to a team.
This is the bitter, old, ignorance that is stopping more useful statistics from becoming more mainstream. You can bury your head in the sand if you wish, but you are only making yourself be less informed than you could be.
Idiots will look at any statistic (WAR, UZR, AVG, RBI… whatever) and misrepresent and fail to qualify them to no end. Stat geeks are not the blind idiots that you old farts try to portray them to be, and take way more things into consideration than you ever do.
An idiot looks at 2 players and says “The one with more RBI is better” without also saying “but he had more at bats” or “he had more runners on base” or “he had more chances to drive in runs”.
An idiot looks at AVG and says “he’s not hitting” without taking walks and power into consideration.
An idiot does not use advanced statistics, because they are incapable of doing so.
This is why people fear them. You might actually have to know what you are talking about.
It’s way easier for people to just point at simple counting stats and be “kinda right”. Complacency never got us anywhere.
When you go to college, you didn’t drop out of calculus or physics because you learned how to add in the 2nd grade. You realize that there are better and more accurate ways to describe the world, and the old ways are inefficient. Saber-metrics is no different.
———————————
this is totally, completely unfair.
Let’s take me as an example:
In my early ’60s
-BS Chemistry
-MBA
-25 years in the microelectronics industry with a focus on inspection and measurement (and a heavily reliance on statisics)
-10 years in the environmental industry-I owned and was the lab director for a testing lab, again, heavily reliant on statistics
-played baseball from little league through college
-fan for well over 50 years
I don’t look at sabremetrics or rely on them for a very simple reason-the fans who think, that by reciting the numbers, they become experts on everything related to baseball.
I’ve read some of the articles about the use of sabremetrics and each of them clearly identifies the level of error and uncertainty involved in the calculations. This makes them a subjective statistic, yet every one of the posts on this blog uses them as an absolute number-an OPS of 850 is higher than 835 therefore the player with the higher number is better. That is a bunch of bulls**t since the errors and uncertainties in the calculations make this essentially the same. If you don’t believe me go read a basic statistics book.
I’m not going to debate the pros and cons of these ‘advanced’ statistics, it is unimportant to me in my approach to baseball, but to call those of us who, with good reason, have a right to ignore them is just wrong.
This is all great stuff…perfect for my screenplay
Erin August 29th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
Tarheel In NYC August 29th, 2011 at 1:33 pm
. He sounded like a professional conflict mediator in that interview.
**********************
The Grandyman can do it all.
====================================
Ain’t that the truth? He really is a total package. I think I might have a crush on him
The only thing that James ever did was find a bunch of suckers that also happened to be frustrated wannbe GMs and sold them books full of his BS for $25 a pop…every year.
..ignore them as ‘old farts’ and ‘idiots’ is just wrong.
YS Guy,
If you think the Lohud discussion impacts the MVP voting, please remove your head for some air.
The MVP voting occurs in October so I doubt Heyman saying on 8/29 Granderson should win will have an impact.
Hassey-you’re writing a screenplay about LoHud? Comedy, drama or horror????
Erin – Actually, it’s going to be a Muppet Movie
GB7 ? Ignorance at its finest. Kudos to you for being so proud of not knowing anything.
__________
Amen.
GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
“Believing in some idiots ideas of value and to follow him blindly without question is ignorance.”
***************
Doesn’t that accurately describe what you have done in your chosen career?
MG,
Well said and thank you for those of us to actually watch baseball.
Hassey August 29th, 2011 at 2:28 pm
Erin ? Actually, it?s going to be a Muppet Movie
**************************
Muppets acting out LoHud conversations? I’m intrigued…..
austinmac August 29th, 2011 at 2:29 pm
MG,
Well said and thank you for those of us to actually watch baseball.
——————–
austin, you’re welcome, can you please send me some beef ribs from the Ironworks in exchange?
SIYanks @Yankees 1st rounder Cito Culver (@yaboicito) has a bright future. Read all about it! http://ht.ly/6fL3H
Chad,
I believe West Coast Yankee Fan should be banned for repeated insults to those who served in the military. That is offensive and has no place on this board. Insulting people for lack of baseball knowledge is fine with me, but enough is enough.
Otherwise, Chad, you will find yourself without an audience. This is too good a site to let slide into oblivion.
GB7 – It has nothing to do with “honky formulas”. It has everything to do with representing and utilizing facts (statistics) in useful ways. Anyone with a college degree (I guess you didn’t have time for that… not a knock, just simple fact) that has taken a statistics course can tell you that.
This is how completely ignorant you are. You have literally no idea what you’re talking about. Just a bitter old man. Just keep attacking people, right? The same thing you accuse everyone else around here of doing. You need to get a clue.
Analyzing baseball didn’t stop in the 50′s when you apparently stopped using your brain.
# West Coast Yankee Fan August 29th, 2011 at 2:29 pm
GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
“Believing in some idiots ideas of value and to follow him blindly without question is ignorance.”
***************
Doesn’t that accurately describe what you have done in your chosen career?
———-
Go jump off a cliff, jerkoff.
GB is perfectly capable of defending himself, but you would never have the balls to say that to his face.
Some of us actually respect the military.
Muppets acting out LoHud conversations? I’m intrigued…..
————————————————————————————————————————-
An X Rated Muppet movie?
MG,
It was 112 here yesterday. I can cook you up some ribs by leaving them outside. That is a great place to eat some barbeque.
… and for once… I actually agree with what WCYF just said.
No one is knocking his service to this country, but blind obedient ignorance just about sums up military service, doesn’t it? Everyone I know that has served and still is will tell you that.
New Post hit the screen just now-
were the Dave Collins and Steve Kemp sigings worth it?
Irreverent,
What a surprise you agree with West Coast. Don’t you always?
I know many who have served and have never heard that expressed.
austinmac August 29th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
MG,
It was 112 here yesterday. I can cook you up some ribs by leaving them outside. That is a great place to eat some barbeque.
—————–
wow, that is hot-I’ve been to Austin many times in my former career but always managed to avoid the really hot days like that
And the Ironworks was always good for adding a few pounds while traveling…
Random thoughts- LaRussa invented the game, Scoscia revised it, and Madden perfected it.
whatever happened to YankeeNMore- he was so wise- predicting 90-72- blasting Cash for hanging on to scrubs like Nunez and Nova- predicting that Jeter would be lucky to hit .240- he was a very smart guy.
SJ 144 was a good commentator actually, save his blind spot for Girardi- Let me see a World Championship, two games from a World Series and 27 games over five hundred with two retreads and a rookie in the rotation- yes he is qute a bad manager…
MG – I think you missed my point by a wide margin.
I don’t look at sabremetrics or rely on them for a very simple reason-the fans who think, that by reciting the numbers, they become experts on everything related to baseball.
So you willfully impede your own development of understand because… other people don’t know what they are talking about or use the stats properly? That’s pretty dumb…
This makes them a subjective statistic, yet every one of the posts on this blog uses them as an absolute number-an OPS of 850 is higher than 835 therefore the player with the higher number is better. That is a bunch of bulls**t since the errors and uncertainties in the calculations make this essentially the same. If you don’t believe me go read a basic statistics book.
OPS has nothing to do with saber-metrics. neither does WAR, or UZR, or any of the other things you are “avoiding”.
When you read the weather report… you look at temperature and precipitation forecasts and accept them without knowing that they are derived from many other statistics. You are only cheating yourself by not taking all of the available knowledge, combining it together and formulating YOUR OWN OPINION.
If your biggest complaint is that people misuse advanced statistics then yes… this is true… in EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE. It has nothing to do with baseball.
Every other word out GB’s mouth is an insult to someone. I respect people who serve, I don’t like hypocrisy. He just criticized someone for blind allegiance and that is exactly what military personnel are supposed to do. It could not be a more fair question.
And where is it written that one cannot challenge and question the military? GB and Tom spent a good while yesterday discussing military subject matter – so it’s ok when they do it because some happen to agree with them?
GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
Muppets acting out LoHud conversations? I’m intrigued…..
????????????????????????????????????????-
An X Rated Muppet movie?
**************************
True. Maybe this is not such a good idea after all.
If there was blind obedience to everything in the military, most would be in prison. There is such things as being held accountable for following illegal or immoral orders. Every leader, every soldier has that responsibility to make that decision. If it’s wrong, you don’t obey. People have gone to jail for giving those orders and people have gone to jail for obeying those order. Those are the idiots. I’m/we’re given standards to perform by.
Having no idea as to what you’re talking about is no excuse. Ignorance, yes, not an excuse.
GB, glad to hear PNC is OK.
Saber stats can be useful to some extent but good point, MG, about “a subjective statistic” being passed off/I’d say often *manipulated* as “an absolute number.” I am all for more knowledge to use alongside eyesight/experience/traditional stats but the blind allegiance to those new stats as if they aren’t flawed and the agenda-based usage of them is what I dislike. Also for some they have actually replaced watching the players and ballgames, and you can tell who speaks prescriptively based mostly on the numbers and who actually watches the games themselves. Not that they are mutually exclusive.
austinmac – first off, get a clue. i never agree with WCYF about anything so don’t try to just “lump us together and throw up out the whole pile”. you post around here enough to know better than that.
second off, try being in the military and having a mind of your own. see how long you last before getting discharged. obedience and single-mindedness are necessities of military service, the system wouldn’t work without blind loyalty and suppression of thought.
austinmac August 29th, 2011 at 2:38 pm
Irreverent, What a surprise you agree with West Coast. Don’t you always? I know many who have served and have never heard that expressed.
***********
Austinmac – who appointed you the decider as to what political beliefs are appropriate to hold in this country? Not everyone agrees with you.
Hi everyone,
it`s been a little while since my last post….i`ve been reading the post on this thread, so i`m going to give you my 2 cents:
Sabermetrics are several tools to help interpret a players past performance to help predict future ones, they are flawed because they don`t take in to account other factors that can not be extracted from stats alone….remember that the players are human beings not machines. Having said that, they do help in many ways as long as you use them in a proper context.
In the MVP race, i think Granderson is very deserving of consideration, his numbers are a testament to that, he could end up having 150 runs, 46-47 hr and 130 rbi`s, that`s an outstanding season by any standard especially if you take in to account that he plays CF….Bautista i stated a while ago that the MVP was his to lose, if he couldn`t maintain the level of production that he was having because it would give legs to the accusations of stealing signs…..after the all star brake he is hitting 256 with 6 hr and 18 rbi`s, so in my opinion unless he tears up the cover of the baseball the rest of the season, granderson should win it.
Jumping in at the end of the thread here.
Buck’s comments didn’t sound so bad when you read them in full context. But he did throw in Flanagan’s name in there. Yellow card.
If they thought we were being unreasonable for wanting to BEAT a storm, then they were unreasonable for expecting us to play a night game before a west coast trip.
http://espn.go.com/new-york/ml.....complaints
RE: Granderson. If he were batting 20 points higher, there would be no argument imo.
Discussing non-baseball issues is fine as long as people don’t start talking about the two most divisive topics there is – politics and religion.
That’s just common sense to those with half a brain.
The military is like any other part of society..you have laws to live by. You break ‘em, you pay. Trust me, the laws in the military are a Hell of a lot more strict than in civilian life. That doesn’t mean blind obedience. It’s common sense. Not different than a cop telling you to go out and rob a bank.
GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
If there was blind obedience to everything in the military, most would be in prison. There is such things as being held accountable for following illegal or immoral orders. Every leader, every soldier has that responsibility to make that decision. If it’s wrong, you don’t obey. People have gone to jail for giving those orders and people have gone to jail for obeying those order. Those are the idiots. I’m/we’re given standards to perform by.
Having no idea as to what you’re talking about is no excuse. Ignorance, yes, not an excuse.
************
For me to be fair I would have to say that I agree 100% with everything you just wrote. I have always said that; every military person has to decide if an order is a moral or legal one or not and whether or not to obey.
And those who choose not to obey an order due to their conscience and/or morality know that there are repercussions for their actions.
Believing in some idiots ideas of value and to follow him blindly without question is ignorance
——————-
A new campaign slogan?
I already have some ideas for casting the LoHud Muppet Movie…
How in Hell does this have anything to do with “political beliefs”? You drag that crap into any argument you can’t win.
Giuseppe Franco August 29th, 2011 at 2:46 pm
Discussing non-baseball issues is fine as long as people don’t start talking about the two most divisive topics there is – politics and religion. That’s just common sense to those with half a brain.
************
GB and Tom spent twenty minutes talking about the military here yesterday. Why does it work only one way? Because some happen to agree with a particular point-of-view?
And what about the people who frequently make reference to god and church? According to you is that appropriate?
Tarheel In NYC August 29th, 2011 at 2:48 pm
I already have some ideas for casting the LoHud Muppet Movie?
*************************
Come on Tarheel, you can’t just leave us hanging…..
Tarheel,
please share them
GB7 – it’s not to say that “all service members are ignorant sheep”. that wasn’t his point and you know that, but can’t admit it because you have to fight everyone every time the word military is brought up (if that doesn’t show blind ignorance, i don’t know what does).
what you said basically describes the mantra of military service. follow orders (to a point, yes… we all know that), don’t talk back, accept what you are told.
it’s the same logical fallacy that people try to bring up every time someone says they “don’t support a war”. You immediately get accused to hating the troops and the people that sacrifice their lives for your well being. That’s a completely ridiculous jump in logic, and makes you looks really stupid. You can support the troops and not support the cause. The world does not exist in absolutes.
You can support advanced statistics without “burying your nose in the book”. You can’t, apparently… so you can’t understand how others do.
Idiots will misrepresent and misuse even the most basic of statistics. It has nothing to do with Bill James.
Chad, anytime you want to start a new post would be just fine. Anytime.
ID, you have your opinion, I have mine, we really need to leave it there because I have no interest in endlessly arguing about it or even discussing it.
I am comfortable that my knowledge of baseball is complete enough for me to enjoy watching the game at an interest level commensurate with the time in my life that is available. I have no interest in spending hundreds of additional hours a year trying to possibly enhance my understanding of the game marginally because there is no guarantee that this is true, it is just the claims by those that believe reliance on these statistics, which are dubious at best, are the new truth about baseball.
If that is what you and others want to do go right ahead, but to claim that you have an understanding of baseball that is inherently better than the rest of us is both inaccurate and lacks merit.
GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 2:49 pm
How in Hell does this have anything to do with “political beliefs”? You drag that crap into any argument you can’t win.
************
Because, not everyone supports the actions of our volunteer military. That’s why.
i have come up with a perfect trade for the yankees and giants. mark teixeira and rafael soriano to the giants for matt cain and brandon belt. yankees get there number two statrer and the giants get the powerhitter they need. what does everyone think about this trade.
GB7 and Tom were just talking about the military.
Only in your mind does military=politics.
GB7 – I know you won’t answer this but I’ll ask anyway.
Believing in some idiots ideas of value and to follow him blindly without question is ignorance
Would you support your own statement by saying that the troops that followed Bush’s “ideas of value” “blindly” into Iraq and Afghanistan “without question” were by your own definition “ignorant”? Or would you hide from your own words because you can’t separate supporting beliefs with supporting people?
Irreverent Discourse August 29th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
“…….You can support the troops and not support the cause. The world does not exist in absolutes.”
************
Absolutely 1000% percent correct. One can hate what a child does and not hate the child. Those that take that as unpatriotic criticism are the ones being unpatriotic. It is the very essence of what being an American is.
The least political organization in America is the military. You can’t campaign on an installation and you can’t have political bumper stickers on a car and you can’t publically support a candidate. Right…so political.
And only you throw out the “Mai Lai” because you want to incite and provoke.
No other reason.
m August 29th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
GB7 and Tom were just talking about the military. Only in your mind does military=politics.
**************
What is it then? Baseball? So it’s ok to talk about a subject matter when you deem there is no political bent to it?
End of an over-discussed topic.
Irreverent Discourse August 29th, 2011 at 2:53 pm
GB7 – I know you won’t answer this but I’ll ask anyway.
Believing in some idiots ideas of value and to follow him blindly without question is ignorance
Would you support your own statement by saying that the troops that followed Bush’s “ideas of value” “blindly” into Iraq and Afghanistan “without question” were by your own definition “ignorant”? Or would you hide from your own words because you can’t separate supporting beliefs with supporting people
—————————————–
ID,
With all due respect, i don`t think thats a subject to be discussed here
m August 29th, 2011 at 2:56 pm
And only you throw out the “Mai Lai” because you want to incite and provoke. No other reason.
************
That was a historical fact. You believe what you want to. I shall do the same.
**************
What is it then? Baseball? So it’s ok to talk about a subject matter when you deem there is no political bent to it?
***************
That’s what everyone has been saying all along.
Luis why don’t you make a list then of appropriate topics?
sandy g August 29th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
i have come up with a perfect trade for the yankees and giants. mark teixeira and rafael soriano to the giants for matt cain and brandon belt. yankees get there number two statrer and the giants get the powerhitter they need. what does everyone think about this trade.
_________________________________________________________________________
Not trading a guy with 30+ HR’s and the best glove in baseball @ 1st base.
m – you get to decide? What about talking about going to church and referencing god is that acceptable to you?
Then you should believe it somewhere else.
Because, and people have said this time and again, your only purpose of saying or as you call it “believing” what you want is to forward your political agenda.
We got you the first time you said it.
We’re not idiots. You don’t need to say something 20 times.
MG – If that is what you and others want to do go right ahead, but to claim that you have an understanding of baseball that is inherently better than the rest of us is both inaccurate and lacks merit.
Don’t lump me in with the idiots, I do everything I possibly can to qualify and make sure that the stats tell me what I think they are telling me before I say anything. And then i explain that and show how it works in my posts (you can see above in this thread a perfect example). To say that you have “as good an understanding” just because of an ability to use these stats would be wrong… just as assuming that you know everything you can by ignoring it.
Like I said above, you don’t show up to college physics with your 2nd grade science book and say “don’t worry, I already understand newtonian motion because i can watch a ball roll down a hill”. You don’t tell the professor you each have an “equal understanding of science” because he uses fancy formulas and you don’t.
The discussion really has nothing to do with sabermetrics, and everything to do with the fact that “educated people” don’t ignore certain things because they don’t understand them.
You, as an educated person… already understand the processes that are necessary to quantify and qualify statistics. Your willingness to accept the more “advanced” formulas like WAR et al is not really that important, because you are not misrepresenting things with the basic statistics to begin with.
Gossip Tweet:
YankeesInk I told you about the “blogger” who has me on his mailing list. On Jeter/Minka: “She had reportedly changed {him} to be a more of a jerk …”
# West Coast Yankee Fan August 29th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
Giuseppe Franco August 29th, 2011 at 2:46 pm
Discussing non-baseball issues is fine as long as people don’t start talking about the two most divisive topics there is – politics and religion. That’s just common sense to those with half a brain.
************
GB and Tom spent twenty minutes talking about the military here yesterday. Why does it work only one way? Because some happen to agree with a particular point-of-view?
And what about the people who frequently make reference to god and church? According to you is that appropriate?
——–
I wasn’t here yesterday so I have no idea what was discussed. Besides, discussions about the military doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with politics.
You know damn well that it doesn’t matter what others discuss. You’ve been asked 1000 times to refrain from political banter and you do it anyways.
There’s no bigger hypocrite in this forum than you.
I don’t go to church and when I reference god it is in vain.
There is only left and right in politics. It is much more divisive than religion of which many people don’t recognize or practice. They could care less.
Anyway, these are the acceptable things that Pete use to allow. He was much more firm on religion or politics.
I don’t care either way. Do whatever. Because you always do.
I just like peace. I hate to argue, and I hate seeing it when I come here.
Just a comment, but doesn’t it seem like Gardener has been chasing the high pitch out of the strikezone for the past week or two. About the only thing you can do is pop it up.
Erin August 29th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
Tarheel In NYC August 29th, 2011 at 2:48 pm
I already have some ideas for casting the LoHud Muppet Movie?
*************************
Come on Tarheel, you can’t just leave us hanging…..
===========================================================
Well, I don’t post here very often, but I’ve been a regular reader for about 18 months now, and there are some personalities that stand out to me.
Erin = Grover (his sweetness and optimism)
)
GB7 & Giuseppe Franco = Statler and Waldorf (need I say more?
Blake = Kermit the Frog (mild-mannered and diplomatic)
Trisha = Cookie Monster (his unwavering enthusiasm)
YankeeFem = Janice, the guitar-playing chick for The Electric Mayhem (laid back and unflappable)
Shame Spencer = Fozzie the Bear (99% of Shame’s posts make me literally LOL)
That’s just a start with the ones that stand out to me. I’m sure more will pop into my head – LOL I hope everyone takes it in good fun, because I mean every bit of it as a compliment
MG
Thank you for your great posts. It sums up what so many of us have difficulty with, re the alphabet soup of, as you said, subjective stats that are proliferating as we speak. It seems that each year there’s a new batch of wobas that are the latest and greatest.
The biggest sin is that they lack context.
MG -
I think you hit the nail on the head.
For the most part, though not entirely, many who use statistics, at least within this forum, do have an attitude that their way is the best, or rather, more enlightened way.
There are a lot of people who enjoy the game as presented, and they have done so for years, and their wealth of knowledge gained solely by observation is impressive. I speak mainly of people like my father-in-law, and his generation. But also of kids who began watching the game without benefit of advanced statistics. And other more casual fans have no less love of baseball and no less feel for who is a good player and who isn’t just because they don’t keep track of the numbers beyond what’s presented during a typical broadcast. In fact, it’s amazing, isn’t it, that what is really going on is nitpicking exactly how miniscule the difference is between one player and another? Arguing percentage points?
It’s ridiculous to try and quantify and/or qualify anyone’s love of the game based on how they approach that feeling. We’re all different. But the people who spout the numbers seem to do so with an attitude of superiority that is insulting and ends up creating a feeling of malice.
I also think it’s great to have an appreciation for statistics, if one is interested. But statistics are not necessary to enjoy baseball. Watching baseball is necessary for enjoyment of the game. Statistics are for arguments (friendly or otherwise) and contract negotiations.
YankeesInk I told you about the “blogger” who has me on his mailing list. On Jeter/Minka: “She had reportedly changed {him} to be a more of a jerk …”
–
A HA! I knew Jeter was a jerk!!!
it is really pathetic that someone not old enough to have been drafted or served during the Vietnam era feels the need to endlessly repeat the same references on a baseball blog.
I never talk politics, particularly on a baseball blog, but mine are as far from pro-military as anyone’s and actually had to work through the issue of possibly being drafted (I wasn’t) and having to go to Vietnam against my will (as did many of my friends). While none of my friends died in service it is far less than 6 degrees of separation to find someone who knew someone who did.
I can blame the government for the war but in no way can I blame the ones who went there and served, it is patently unfair.
West Coast Yankee Fan August 29th, 2011 at 2:59 pm
Luis why don’t you make a list then of appropriate topics?
———————-
I`m only pointing out that this is a baseball blog, they way ID formulated the question forces a political answer, that is going to be divisive no matter how he answers it, so better leave the subject alone, JMHO.
It’s ridiculous to try and quantify and/or qualify anyone’s love of the game based on how they approach that feeling. We’re all different. But the people who spout the numbers seem to do so with an attitude of superiority that is insulting and ends up creating a feeling of malice.
I also think it’s great to have an appreciation for statistics, if one is interested. But statistics are not necessary to enjoy baseball.
–
No one does this fyi
GF I wear your disdain like a badge of honor – it let’s me know I am doing something right. I do not need majority validation. People talk about all sorts of things here that are not baseball related that have political underpinnings. You are going to decide what does and what doesn’t? Get a good lawyer.
Ban all “non-sports” discussion then and I will follow that 100%.
GB7 & Giuseppe Franco = Statler and Waldorf (need I say more? )
————————————————————————————————————————-
Randy and GF, i can accept, but, why me? I’m more the Fozzy Bear with brains and looks type.
Tarheel-love your casting (I’m honored at being Grover by the way)
And I can totally see GB and GF up in the balcony. LOL
I still laugh when I remember that someone (Tarheel?) made a list of characters here and I was cast as “Mel” from the TV show Alice.
I also think it’s great to have an appreciation for statistics, if one is interested. But statistics are not necessary to enjoy baseball. Watching baseball is necessary for enjoyment of the game. Statistics are for arguments (friendly or otherwise) and contract negotiations.
This is exactly right… but you also shouldn’t argue with the person that studies the statistics… about statistics! Insulting them for their “far out wacko thinking” and acting like everything they say is crazy like so many are quick to do here is ridiculous… just because they chose to have a deeper understanding of the games intricacies than you.
Tarheel, lol. I wish you posted more.
I’m sorry; someone saying, in effect, “I’ll see you all later, because I’m going to church.” Is not a religious discussion.
I have yet to see anything more “religious” than people’s casual references to how they were going to celebrate a particular holiday, which was more social in nature, and sharing in nature, than in any way inflammatory.
Reminding people gently that it’s election day and they may want to vote, is not a political discussion.
Talking generally about one’s personal experiences in the military is not a political discussion.
Besides which, if a person doesn’t like or agree with a particular post, they can scroll past it.
# West Coast Yankee Fan August 29th, 2011 at 3:05 pm
GF I wear your disdain like a badge of honor – it let’s me know I am doing something right. I do not need majority validation. People talk about all sorts of things here that are not baseball related that have political underpinnings. You are going to decide what does and what doesn’t? Get a good lawyer.
Ban all “non-sports” discussion then and I will follow that 100%.
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Well, you must have many badges of honor because everybody thinks you’re a jackass.
You’ve earned your reputation here.
Extremists like you can find political underpinnings in grandma’s brownie recipe.
Villa Nova-great post @ 3:10
Back to baseball – and speaking of statistics. The lead in to a terrific article, “Statistics and Stories” by SI writer Jow Posnanski.
http://joeposnanski.si.com/201.....#more-7988
Questions: Do statistics take the wonder out of our sports? Do statistics drain the humanity out of them? Do statistics pull our eyes away from the fields and diamonds and courts and toward the ledger book? Do statistics make us less appreciative of the most important things in life, qualities that we intuitively understand are important but are not easy to quantify, such as leadership and guts and the ability to handle pressure, and the willingness to be a good teammate? Do statistics make us turn away from the myth and joy and mystery that make sports fun in the first place? Most of all: Do statistics ruin good stories?
An excerpt on Mo from the article.
“And one way to tell how Rivera makes us feel is by the numbers. For instance, here’s one: Since 1997, the New York Yankees have won 97.2% of the games they led going into the ninth inning. The record, if you want it to the moment, is 1,256-36. Obviously, Rivera did not finish all those games. But he finished 859 games over those years. He is largely responsible for that amazing record. Over the years, the Yankees have led going into the ninth inning 85 or so times a year. With Rivera closing, they have lost those leads once or twice a year.”
luis i know it was divisive and was not expecting an answer, i just want him to realize his own hypocrisy (as did WCYF by his original statement).
To be fair… WCYF’s original statement was completely benign…
austinmac’s and Giuseppe Franco’s completely off-the-wall and uncalled for response to it started this flame war. Stop blaming the wrong person.
The rest of you have completely blown it out of proportion because you can’t separate supporting ideas and beliefs from supporting the people around you.
MG August 29th, 2011 at 3:05 pm
it is really pathetic that someone not old enough to have been drafted or served during the Vietnam era feels the need to endlessly repeat the same references on a baseball blog.
I never talk politics, particularly on a baseball blog
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It’s a great strategy
Even reasoned people can’t have a level conversation about politics and religion today. We live in such a diverse nation that entrenches people very deeply in both their ideology and their beliefs. Unless your talking to someone that shares the same views as you do, there is never agreement or common ground and usually most of the conversations turn ugly at some point.
“The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance.”
# Irreverent Discourse August 29th, 2011 at 2:32 pm
GB7 – It has nothing to do with “honky formulas”. It has everything to do with representing and utilizing facts (statistics) in useful ways. Anyone with a college degree (I guess you didn’t have time for that… not a knock, just simple fact) that has taken a statistics course can tell you that.
This is how completely ignorant you are. You have literally no idea what you’re talking about. Just a bitter old man. Just keep attacking people, right? The same thing you accuse everyone else around here of doing. You need to get a clue.
Analyzing baseball didn’t stop in the 50?s when you apparently stopped using your brain.
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Gang of 5?
I’m going to jump in on the group think/can’t separate this from that.
This is absolutely not true.
People from all walks of life have been getting along with each other for years. Stat-heads (I use this term affectionately) and grey hairs (also used affectionately) can get along. They can respect the opinions of others and learn from each other.
But to call people sycophants and koolaid drinkers (where’s the outcry on that one, moral compass of the blog?!) is rude.
People are banding together to fight what is a trending behavior. Passive-aggressive, hypocritical, at times manic behavior only meant to cause trouble.
When this stops, then it’ll be a lot more pleasant here.
And before anyone cries victim, GB7 and randy l and trisha and Betsy have all been called out on occasion. So it’s not personal.
# GreenBeret7 August 29th, 2011 at 3:07 pm
GB7 & Giuseppe Franco = Statler and Waldorf (need I say more? )
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Randy and GF, i can accept, but, why me? I’m more the Fozzy Bear with brains and looks type.
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You’re nothing but a Legend in your own Mind.
Rude is better than Crude.
Tarheel I love when you post as well:D
OMG redfish just plagiarized my badge of honor post!!! I’m working so, I will catch up later.
I don’t give a rat’s behind what people believe in, but, whatever it is that you think you believe in, don’t try forcing it on me.
I’m checking out for now, mick.
If I don’t respond to you it’s because I’m not here. Not because I’m ignoring you.
GB7 – I don’t give a rat’s behind what people believe in, but, whatever it is that you think you believe in, don’t try forcing it on me.
Again… hypocrite… when you stop berating others for believing something different than you, these conversations will end.
“just because they chose to have a deeper understanding of the games intricacies than you.”
Irreverent Discourse -
You see, this is what I mean. I think it’s possible to co-exist, and I agree that no one from either side should be condescending. This whole line of thinking that someone who follows the more esoteric or simply the newer of baseball stats has a “deeper understanding of the game’s intricacies” is what I mean when i say that the people with the numbers think they understand the game better. Perhaps some do. I think the may just understand the numbers better, but don’t you find it interesting that when the numbers are applied retro-actively to retired and dead players, the story of their careers doesn’t really change? Might add some color to it, some interesting tidbits, but it doesn’t change the story.
And it seems interesting to me that just as the general population becomes somewhat accustomed to some of the newer statistics coming into general usage, that newer and more esoteric statistics are developed. It does have a feeling of wanting to keep people OUT rather than being a way to bring more people together over something. But that is just my own take on some of it. And I don’t want to generalize, because that is exactly what it is that drove me to even take on this subject.
For the record, I generally like to watch my baseball without accompaniments, but when I have the time and inclination, I love to pore over the different numbers. Sometimes they’re very enlightening, but sometimes they’re just a cloud of numbers.
New Post (Thank you Chad): Bernie Williams being inducted into Latino Baseball Hall
GB7 – I know you won’t answer this but I’ll ask anyway.
Believing in some idiots ideas of value and to follow him blindly without question is ignorance
Would you support your own statement by saying that the troops that followed Bush’s “ideas of value” “blindly” into Iraq and Afghanistan “without question” were by your own definition “ignorant”? Or would you hide from your own words because you can’t separate supporting beliefs with supporting people?
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Once again when the going gets tough, he gets going.
Can’t answer a legitimate question OR won’t lower yourself to it?
I stuck out my hand in peace and he spit on it.
ID,
Point taken, i was trying to defuse the situation, i hope you don`t hold any grudges, besides i agree that modern stats are very useful, but they are flawed, because we are talking about human beings, so other factors have to be added to the mix. As an example we can use Nova, he was proyected to be a back of the rotation pitcher, but he has shown the moxie and ability to learn and adapt to become a much better player than stats proyected him to be…..
have to go for a while, later guys
Villa – Good stuff.
No one makes fun of a scientist for knowing more about science than you do. No one thinks it’s condescending when a scientist tells you how something actually works.
No one makes fun of an english teacher when they correct your grammar or spelling because they understand it better than you do, even though you think you can speak and read/write.
No one thinks a historian is insulting them when they remember things that no one else would possibly remember.
Only in baseball are the “watchers” and the “studiers” apparently expected to be on a level playing field. I believe it’s the image of baseball being a simple game, and people become very frustrated when any aspect of it becomes difficult to understand.