Tex back in the lineup, Granderson gets day off
Posted by: Josh Thomson - Posted in Misc on Sep 04, 2011 
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Here’s the Yankee lineup that will face Toronto Blue Jays left-hander Brett Cecil today. CC Sabathia will start for the Yanks:
Brett Gardner CF
Derek Jeter SS
Mark Teixeira 1B
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Robinson Cano 2B
Nick Swisher RF
Andruw Jones LF
Russell Martin C
Jesus Montero DH
blake September 4th, 2011 at 10:57 am
Im.sure Hughes is going to the pen…..I hate that decision really but short term it could make the pen just even nastier than it already is.
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I agree on all counts. If true, it’s another poor, short-sighted Yankee management rotation decision. But you’re right, seeing what Hughes did in the first inning lat outing leads one to believe he could be dominant out of the pen if he throws 94-95 for an inning.
“I just don’t know why the Yankees are waiting to announce the decision ”
Because the players haven’t been told yet and the Yankees would prefer the news come from them and not the media.
Blake,
I wouldn’t worry too much about Hughes getting his innings in. The math works out nearly evenly if you include a deep post-season run.
AJ has 4 more starts right?. He could get 20-25 innings in that time. Then the playoffs start and he’s done. Realistically, if the Yankees kept Hughes in the rotation for the stretch, he’d be looking at a comparable number of innings, 20-25, right?
If Hughes pitches out of the pen down the stretch, they could get him up to 15 innings. The remaining 5 innings could come in the playoffs, in one single game if someone bombs, really.
pat September 4th, 2011 at 11:08 am
“I just don’t know why the Yankees are waiting to announce the decision ”
Because the players haven’t been told yet and the Yankees would prefer the news come from them and not the media.
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Then why say anything?
REpost:
Ghostwriter September 4th, 2011 at 11:04 am
LGY September 4th, 2011 at 10:55 am
While there is certainly an argument to be made their best lineup vs LHP has Jones in LF there is also a valid argument the best lineup has Jones out there.
It comes down to how much you value defense.
As we saw in the first game of this series Gardner’s defense is game changing. He saved a minimum 2 runs out in LF. It’s a very difficult question in baseball right now how to weigh defense vs offense.
But one thing is certain. Brett Gardner has a huge impact out there in Left.
And it’s disingenuous to suggest you don’t lose much with Jones out there. Maybe the only LF in baseball you don’t lose much with would be with Crawford. Gardner is the best LF in MLB and maybe the best defensive player in the game. Jones is solid but he’s not Brett.
It’s a very tough question and why so many people think Gardner is a great player while others not so much.
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Nice post. You can’t just hand wave away the value of Gardner’s defense, especially in left field, which is a tough spot to play in YS. The other element is what is the next best alternative? If you put JOnes in left field against lefties, then who is your DH? Montero? Posada? I’m not sure that Posada or Montero would be unambiguous upgrades over Gardner at the plate. It’s early, and I might be missing something, but I don’t see how that move would make the team better.
Pat, that’s pretty obvious………I just don’t get why they waited until today
The Yankees are so deep this season.
The MVP is getting a day and the lineup is still killer.
Craw, from the previous thread, thanks!
Glad to see Granderson getting a day off. I think he could use the blow from the grind.
great to have you here vinchenzo!!
good luck
still want to see montero catching
I think Girardi is doing a fantastic job once again of distributing playing time equally amongst the roster. The guy is definitely a huge fan of redistribution of resources. Surefire commie.
Torre’s teams crossed the finish line on fumes. They were so fatigued in the playoffs, they were far more vulnerable to collapse.
I don’t worry about implosion. The Yankees will put up a good fight, even if they’re one and done.
Betsy-
Because its prudent to put off announcements that are likely going to make waves until the last minute. You never know when someone is going to cut their finger and a decision can be postponed.
Betsy September 4th, 2011 at 11:07 am
They need to skip Colon a couple of times to keep him fresh, so I wonder who would get those starts?
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He probably only has about 4 starts left this season. At most, they could skip him once. At this stage, I think keeping him in his routine is probably best, unless Colon is hurting.
pat September 4th, 2011 at 11:18 am
Betsy-
Because its prudent to put off announcements that are likely going to make waves until the last minute. You never know when someone is going to cut their finger and a decision can be postponed.
=================
I really don’t see any pressing urgency to commit to anything now, for precisely this reason.
With Noesi and Hughes in the pen plus guys like Ayala and Wade, Girardi can preserve the stamina of Colon, Garcia and CC while limiting innings thrown by the back-end of the bullpen. Girardi is going to protect his most valuable arms, which is why you won’t see a start by AJ that depletes the pen. Hughes will enter games where AJ implodes early. Noesi can pitch in games where the others tire. The trio of Robertson, Soriano, Rivera definitely benefits from the extra protection with Hughes in the pen and rosters expanded.
Pat, I suppose…………well anyway, the deal is done and the envelope will be opened after the game to reveal the winner of the Best Pitcher Oscar for 5th starter.
Ghost, he’s just not the same as he was before – now maybe even a skipped start wouldn’t help him because of the amt of innings he’s pitched, but he’s vital to our chances in the playoffs, so anything that might help…………
Was anybody else surprised that Giaradi let Colon throw over 106 pitches yesterday? I wonder why he did that: was it to get Colon some additional work before skipping his next turn in the rotation, or did Girardi REALLY want to win yesterday’s game?
Bret, they can not use Phil as a caddy for AJ and have him sit around on his hands on the other days. They tried that with Wang and Phil never ended up pitching. If they’ve committed to AJ as a starter and Phil as a reliever, then Phil needs to be the long-man type for any starter -that will likely be his role in the post-season anyway, and also it will give him more innings.
Betsy, he was on a superduper roll earlier this season, and it was bound to come to an end. He still looks good to me, throwing the ball hard and with command.
“I’m not sure that Posada or Montero would be unambiguous upgrades over Gardner at the plate.”
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If that is the case, that’s pretty sad.
Betsy,
True, there’s always flexibility baked into the plan. I just suspect AJ is the most likely to go short and expose the pen. I see Hughes needing those innings. But Noesi can very easily enter those games as well depending on how Joe uses Phil and Noesi. My thinking is he can use both as long men. Did Noesi start any games when he was demoted? Or did he pitch exclusively out of the pen?
# Against All Odds September 4th, 2011 at 11:27 am
If true, it’s another poor, short-sighted Yankee management rotation decision.
————————————————
What else could they have done?
Ghost, but the results have been mediocre……….. He sure doesn’t deserve to be sent to the pen like Anthony McCarron wrote, lol
West Coast Yankee Fan September 4th, 2011 at 11:27 am
“I’m not sure that Posada or Montero would be unambiguous upgrades over Gardner at the plate.”
************
If that is the case, that’s pretty sad.
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That is pretty sad. Gardner is OPS’ing in the 600 vs. lefties.
Bret, yes, both will (most likely) be used as long-men……..but I hope it won’t be too often as that means the pitching is struggling.
It is preposterous to think that Phil Hughes would be used as a long man out of the pen. If the Yankees did that it would rank up there with the dumbest moves they have ever made.
If the Yanks were out of the playoffs then Hughes would get the starts and AJ would just be shut down.
But Hughes has a track record of pitching well out of the pen. In fact his relief stats are overwhelmingly superior to his starting stats (4.99 ERA vs 1.51).
AJ has made one relief appearance in 7 years.
Add to that the fact that Hughes has been able to have high end velocity for an inning or two in most of his starts and it’s really a very easy decision. As others have spelled out, the difference in innings is minimal and insignificant.
Hughes last two starts didn’t make a case for him to have one of the spots. He had to win the job. He didn’t.
Bret The Hitman September 4th, 2011 at 11:29 am
Betsy,
True, there’s always flexibility baked into the plan. I just suspect AJ is the most likely to go short and expose the pen. I see Hughes needing those innings. But Noesi can very easily enter those games as well depending on how Joe uses Phil and Noesi.
=====================
The depth of the starting pitching rotation suggests that the long-relief ptiching could be a key for the Yanks success in the postseason. If AJ struggles early, then I would expect Joe to have a quick hook, and go to Hughes and/or Noesi early. There is no point in saving Hughes for the late innings, because there already is a log-jam of right-handers to pitch the late innings. The obvious exception to this is if a game goes into extra innings (In which their pitching depth could give the Yanks an advantage.
You have to weigh the needs of the team with those of Phil Hughes. Hughes needs innings. That much is clear. The team needs innings from him. The back-end of the bullpen is pretty stellar without Phil Hughes. The 7th, 8th and 9th innings are thoroughly (and masterfully) covered. I don’t see how Phil Hughes or the team benefits from Hughes throwing the 6th inning. Those other guys have been throwing in the late innings all-season long and Joe has to stick with what works. Trying to transition Hughes to a late inning reliever is a tremendous project. It’s kind of late in the season for such a project. I’d rather see Hughes throw 3 inning stints every week.
I don’t buy that argument because neither one would be getting important innings in the playoffs. Assuming the decision is to keep AJ in the rotation, it’s because the Yankees think that he’s simply the better choice. I think all along they’ve wanted to keep AJ in the rotation – his and Phil’s starts against Boston were just excuses to make the decision they wanted to make. Velocity is not the be all and end all – we’ve seen many pitchers throw hard, whether out of the pen or not, and have their FB tattooed.
# austinmac September 4th, 2011 at 11:32 am
Hughes last two starts didn’t make a case for him to have one of the spots. He had to win the job. He didn’t.
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That’s what it boils down too.
If that is the case, that’s pretty sad.
—-
Why is that sad? Gardner is better vs LHP than Posada
In terms of Montero, Gardner is hitting. 258 with a 659 OPS vs LHP.
It is certainly possible that Montero produces less than that in his first month in the big leagues like many great hitters have done before him. Miguel Cabrera for example.
Ghost’s statement is definitely fair and this is coming from one of the biggest Montero fans here.
Against All Odds September 4th, 2011 at 11:29 am
If true, it’s another poor, short-sighted Yankee management rotation decision.
————————————————
What else could they have done?
*************************
Not play ping-pong with another young pitcher with the upside that Hughes has. You don’t “hold auditions” in August for the rotation IMO.
plus hughes hasnt shut down a good hittin team but once this season against the blue jays he gave up 2 runs in 5 innings…
Bret, at this point, it’s all about what the team needs. I think Phil will be a 6th inning guy if needed or a long-man, but if he doesn’t get sufficient work early as a long-man, I don’t know how he’ll be stretched out enough to BE a long man down the line. You can’t predict when he’s going to throw any amount of innings because it all depends on the starters.
Odds, yep.
Ghostwriter September 4th, 2011 at 11:24 am
Was anybody else surprised that Giaradi let Colon throw over 106 pitches yesterday? I wonder why he did that: was it to get Colon some additional work before skipping his next turn in the rotation, or did Girardi REALLY want to win yesterday’s game?
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The bullpen was short, and Colon has said he is not feeling tired. He doesn’t look tired either, not more than any other pitcher this time of year. He was still throwing mid-90′s near the end of his start yesterday. Everyone just *assumes* he is tired whenever he is not great because that’s the easiest thing to assume for a pitcher his age with his history.
Bret The Hitman September 4th, 2011 at 11:30 am
That is pretty sad. Gardner is OPS’ing in the 600 vs. lefties.
================================
That stat is a little deceptive. While Gardner doesn’t hit for power against lefties, he gets on base at a .360 clip. Obviously, we don’t need him to be a power threat against lefties.
Betsy,
With AJ starting 4 more times, I think you can predict with a high degree of reliability that the team will need long-man innings from Phil Hughes in those starts if Joe expects to protect the bullpen down the stretch.
Oh my bad. You were saying it’s sad if they produce less than Gardner not the question is sad.
Same thing applies though. Why is that sad? Montero is 21 and making his major league debut.
No one should be suprised if he struggles and everyone should have the patience to ride it out.
Ghost,
But if Montero can be an RBI guy vs. lefties, that helps in the playoffs.
Hughes will get another chance to start next year if he works hard in the OS.
I hope Burnett is moved.
CC
Garcia/Colon /(trade ?)
Nova
Hughes (if Healthy)
Noesi/Phelps/Warren
That’s how I see for next season.
Bret, we’ll see – but I hope not. I want all of our SP to do well………..
Ghost
That’s true too. Even if Gardner doesn’t SLG vs LHP he gets on base at a good rate and can turn singles into doubles.
People just need to give Montero breathing room to adjust.
There is nothing sad about a 21 year old struggling in his first taste of the big league.
Velocity is more important to Hughes than anyone on the staff because his fastball has the least movement.
# West Coast Yankee Fan September 4th, 2011 at 11:35 am
Against All Odds September 4th, 2011 at 11:29 am
If true, it’s another poor, short-sighted Yankee management rotation decision.
————————————————
What else could they have done?
*************************
Not play ping-pong with another young pitcher with the upside that Hughes has. You don’t “hold auditions” in August for the rotation IMO.
————————————–
Valid point but if he was a little more consistent in some starts this wouldn’t even be discussed.
A Montero-Gardner either or is a straw man.
LGY September 4th, 2011 at 11:39 am
Oh my bad. You were saying it’s sad if they produce less than Gardner not the question is sad.
Same thing applies though. Why is that sad? Montero is 21 and making his major league debut.
No one should be suprised if he struggles and everyone should have the patience to ride it out.
================
It’s good practice to assume that troll is going for the cheap insult, and ignore him as you please.
Against All Odds September 4th, 2011 at 11:42 am
# West Coast Yankee Fan September 4th, 2011 at 11:35 am
Against All Odds September 4th, 2011 at 11:29 am
If true, it’s another poor, short-sighted Yankee management rotation decision.
————————————————
What else could they have done?
*************************
Not play ping-pong with another young pitcher with the upside that Hughes has. You don’t “hold auditions” in August for the rotation IMO.
————————————–
Valid point but if he was a little more consistent in some starts this wouldn’t even be discussed.
********
With the exception of one game, has AJ been better?
Very good chance that Phil Hughes could very effective out of the pen for an inning or two at a time.
The arm just did not come back as quickly as hoped.
Ghostwriter – I see only polite baseball conversation – the only troll I see on this page is you so far.
Bret The Hitman September 4th, 2011 at 11:39 am
Ghost,
But if Montero can be an RBI guy vs. lefties, that helps in the playoffs.
=============
True. However, I’m not willing to bench a guy that has demonstrated that he can perform at the MLB level in favor of a guy with 7 ABs in the big leagues.
MTU,
I still think Francisco Liriano is a possibility because he is a lefty, is cheap to trade for, is only a one year commitment, has big game potential. I think the Yankees could get him cheaply without trading any top prospects. Let’s just say hypothetically speaking the Twins want Noesi + Cervelli + Joseph. Let’s face it, Cervelli and Joseph are blocked by a host of great players and prospects while Noesi is blocked long term if Betance and Banuelos pan out.
Here’s what I have come up with.
2012
CC Sabathia-lhp
Ivan Nova-rhp
Francisco Liriano-lhp
AJ Burnett-rhp
Phil Hughes-rhp
Dellin Betances-AAA
Manny Banuelos-AAA
Adam Warren-AAA
*Trade Burnett 2012 offseason
2013
CC Sabathia-lhp
Matt Cain-rhp
Ivan Nova-rhp
Manny Banuelos-lhp
Dellin Betances-rhp
Phil Hughes-rhp
*Sign Matt Kemp
A Montero-Gardner either or is a straw man
——
How exactly is it a strawman?
West Coast Yankee Fan September 4th, 2011 at 11:45 am
Ghostwriter – I see only polite baseball conversation – the only troll I see on this page is you so far.
======
Thanks for proving my point, sparky!
West Coast Yankee Fan September 4th, 2011 at 11:43 am
A Montero-Gardner either or is a straw man.
—
No it’s not, if Montero DH’s vs lhp Jones is going to take Gardner’s spot in LF vs lhp. They are not going to DH Montero and have Jones on the bench vs lhp.
# West Coast Yankee Fan September 4th, 2011 at 11:44 am
Against All Odds September 4th, 2011 at 11:42 am
# West Coast Yankee Fan September 4th, 2011 at 11:35 am
Against All Odds September 4th, 2011 at 11:29 am
If true, it’s another poor, short-sighted Yankee management rotation decision.
————————————————
What else could they have done?
*************************
Not play ping-pong with another young pitcher with the upside that Hughes has. You don’t “hold auditions” in August for the rotation IMO.
————————————–
Valid point but if he was a little more consistent in some starts this wouldn’t even be discussed.
********
With the exception of one game, has AJ been better?
——————–
No but when it comes to Aj we know the Yankees are going to give him some rope and not banish him. Hughes had a chance to grab the bull the horns and make the decision a tough one.
Bret-
AJ needs to go.
I’d rather take a chance on Danks than Liriano even though he would cost more. Doubt they get either one.
It will be interesting to see if they go after Kemp when Swisher’s contract expires. Depends on what Swish does in his walk year.
No thank you to Liriano – I didn’t want him this year and I don’t want him next year
Ghostwriter September 4th, 2011 at 11:46 am
Bret The Hitman September 4th, 2011 at 11:39 am
Ghost,
But if Montero can be an RBI guy vs. lefties, that helps in the playoffs.
=============
True. However, I’m not willing to bench a guy that has demonstrated that he can perform at the MLB level in favor of a guy with 7 ABs in the big leagues.
==============
I should add a caveat about Posada, who I would consider leaving off the postseason roster if Montero can make a case that he should be on it this year.
Odds, yeah he did…………..and they went mano a mano in essence in Boston and we saw how that went.
Being sent to the pen is not a a punishment; it is not “time-out” or going to bed without dinner because you didn’t pitch well.
It is an attempt at trying to maximize a pitcher’s value to the team right now.
Colon has shown some signs of fatigue. If he get sent to the pen it is not because he did something to “deserve” that – it is because they feel they can get the best performance from in as they go down the stretch or into the playoffs. Same with Hughes. He has shown velocity in the beginnings of games when he is fresh. It’s been a really tough season for Hughes, most of it spent rehabbing or getting back to form and he will not be “Phil Hughes” this season. But he can be utilized to the team’s advantage out of the bullpen.
You can’t personalize these decisions. And it makes no sense to put it in terms of whether a pitcher is “deserving” or not. It’s not a punishment. I suppose one could see it as a demotion, but I don’t think that’s true, either. AJ and Phil, to me, are about equal at this point in terms of what you might get from them in any one start. But Phil has the BP pedigree that AJ does not – so he goes to the pen (if that’s the decision they are making). OR they decide to keep AJ and Phil in the rotation and put Colon in the pen to try and keep him fresh for the playoff run. Who knows?
But it is all about what they think will work best for the team as a whole going forward.
Kemp – lifetime OPS+ of 123; Swisher – 117. Why the big love for Kemp? Not much of an upgrade.
I love seeing Montero in the lineup! He will be a MONSTER!
VN-
“But it is all about what they think will work best for the team as a whole going forward.”
Hammer meets nail. Exactly.
AJ is unmoveable unless the Yankees are willing to pay something like 90% of his contract.
Hopefully his last start was a sign of things to come and he can be a decent starter the next two years.
Villa Nova, that’s true, but IMO Colon has been huge for us all season and he’s still a lot better than Hughes as a starter, so there’s no decision to be made. McCarron’s argument was that AJ and Phil would slug it out for a start in the post-season………..that shouldn’t happen at all.
I mean Hughes OR AJ
# Betsy September 4th, 2011 at 11:50 am
Odds, yeah he did…………..and they went mano a mano in essence in Boston and we saw how that went.
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Yep we saw how it went and it didn’t go well.
MTU,
I don’t want to have to trade top prospects for Danks when the team will be only 1 year way from signing someone like Matt Cain for money alone. That’s why I see Liriano as a cheap place holder. Although next year’s staff would be just as weak as this year’s as far as front-end talent goes, the depth will be even better with Manny, Betances and Warren in AAA. That depth allows Cashman to take a 1 year shot at someone like Liriano. Otherwise you’re coughing up top prospects and blocking a spot that can easily be filled with an excellent free agent class of pitchers available after 2012.
Oh and I totally agree with your last comment – I just don’t think Colon to the pen is an option for them
I’m still puzzled by Gritner’s slumps. Unless he was injured at some point, he just stopped hitting. Even that ugly helicopter swing made an appearance a time or two. I’m not a fan of his hitting mechanics as he rarely utilizes his lower body. Send him to the Cano school this winter. At this stage it’s probably too late. Another case of poor development in the Yankee minor system.
eat 20 mill of AJ’s 30 mill and someone might go for it.
As Blake has said before, better to save 10 Mill than to lose all of it.
Burnett is a #5 .500 Pitcher. Our kids might be able to do that.
Odds, nope – but AJ came through so the only thing to do is hope he continues to do well as a starter because that would help the team
That’s the key — neither AJ nor Colon has any meaningful bullpen experience while Hughes has an excellent bullpen track record.
I agree Hughes is more “deserving” of being the # 5 guy than AJ, but I don’t think there’s any chance AJ could help out of the pen. I am pretty sure Phil can. I know that he has.
It’s not about the rest of the regular season. It’s about this October, not 2012.
# Betsy September 4th, 2011 at 11:56 am
Odds, nope – but AJ came through so the only thing to do is hope he continues to do well as a starter because that would help the team
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Yea the new delivery sticks and works out for him.
Colon has been huge all season – you’ll get no argument from me there.
I think we shall see what we shall see.
Danks is going to go FA and there’s no way I’m trading good prospects for him when that’s the case. I don’t think the Yankees have any intention of trading AJ – and not just because I don’t think Hal would eat the $$$. I think they still think he can be a viable pitcher for them
Good argument Bret but I’d rather just pass on Liriano.
Most likely the Yankees are going with what they have.
Who knows who might become available in the OS though ?
2013 looks stacked in terms of FA’s. Yankees always look ahead.
Villa Nova, yep – we just have to wait how it all plays out; it will be interesting to say the least
Colon is huge in the off-season too.
I think if Nova, Betances, Banuelos and Hughes (to a lesser extent) make strides in 2012 and the Yankees can sign someone like Matt Cain after 2012, it’s a no-brainer to move AJ in the 2012 offseason. He’ll be heading into a contract year and hopefully he will pitch better in 2012. I think Matt Cain will be worth the money. He’s a workhorse pitcher, a perennial 200 IP guy. I think CC, Cain, Nova, Banuelos, Betances, Hughes is a mean stable of arms.
Betsy-
I’m glad they think so because it’s their money and team on the line.
I just disagree. Hope they decide to move him and find a taker.
Jacksquat September 4th, 2011 at 11:48 am
West Coast Yankee Fan September 4th, 2011 at 11:43 am
A Montero-Gardner either or is a straw man.
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No it’s not, if Montero DH’s vs lhp Jones is going to take Gardner’s spot in LF vs lhp. They are not going to DH Montero and have Jones on the bench vs lhp.
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Montero is at DH today and Jones is giving Granderson a spell with Gardner in the lineup. Jones will also give Swisher a spell now and then probably against lefties when Montero will DH, and Gardner will not sit every game against a lefty when Montero will DH. There are plenty of scenarios where Montero and Gardner will both be in the lineup – like today. So I don’t see this as an either Gardner or Montero scenario.
Bret-
The Giants are most likely going to re-sign Cain.
New thread ==>
MTU September 4th, 2011 at 11:56 am
eat 20 mill of AJ’s 30 mill and someone might go for it.
As Blake has said before, better to save 10 Mill than to lose all of it.
Burnett is a #5 .500 Pitcher. Our kids might be able to do that.
—
“Our kids might be able to do that” is the reason he’s not worth $5 mil/year to another team. Plus then you are still essentially paying $10 mil/year to whoever replaces him.
The only thing I can see is possibly a bad contract for bad contract trade, although I can’t think of any possibilities off the top of my head.
MTU, they obviously feel differently about AJ than you so we’re going to see who’s right next year…….
Bret, if wishes were horses – but I wouldn’t hold my breath on him ever becoming available.
Betsy-
Most likely AJ will be here but it’s not because of what they think of him
necessarily.
There is the practical matter of moving him with his contract.
They might just be stuck with him. Not think he’s very good.
You’re right though. Time will tell.
i bet Swisher is happy that Tex is back in the line-up