Pitching matchups in Toronto
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Sep 16, 2011 
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erin – i love those fake perter gammons post
Triple Short of a Cycle September 16th, 2011 at 11:53 am
The reality as I see it is that he isn?t the player he once was, even a couple of years ago.
———————————————-
He doesn’t have to be. Back then he was a centerpiece of the offense. Now the team will be built around Grandy,Cano and Montero.
*************
Cano yes, Grandy and Montero not so sure. Not yet.
Granderson strikes out way too much and a .260 batting average does not a team centerpiece make. Bautista, Gonzalez, Martinez and Cabrera are that and are hitting over .300. As to Montero, who knows what he will do consistently. Hoping he fulfills his potential and more – but to say he will be an A-Rod like team centerpiece at this stage is speculative.
I can’t wait for the game tonight. With all of the day games and west coast games it seems like I’ve seen them play about 3 times this month.
Doc Iac- isn’t he a riot?
def, the fake john sterling is great too
FauxJSterling Faux John Sterling
by DocIac
Fans: I appreciate it when you “correct” my “errors,” but who ya gonna trust–the VOICE OF THE NEW YORK YANKEES, or your lyin’ eyes?
whenever i see the Yankees playing in Toronto, i can’t help but think how the Jays have been accused of stealing signs.
if C.C. gets rocked tonight, then there has to be someone in CF for the Jays relaying signs
to the plate.
time for C.C. to knock someone down and send a message very early!!
Doc Iac- LOVE FauxJSterling. I was telling Shame Spencer the other day that I’m not totally convinced it’s not Sterling.
erin – haha u could be right!!
WTP-if they do a crowd shot and you see The Man in the White Coat we may be in for a long night.
Granderson strikes out way too much and a .260 batting average does not a team centerpiece make. Bautista, Gonzalez, Martinez and Cabrera are that and are hitting over .300.
——————–
Martinez as in Victor Martinez??
jimbaumbach Deadline for Roger Clemens to decide to appeal judge’s decision to go forward with new trial is approaching. No word yet from Clemens camp.
Granderson strikes out way too much and a .260 batting average does not a team centerpiece make.
———————————
I didn’t say he was a centerpiece I said they will build around these 3 players.
LGY September 16th, 2011 at 10:43 am
Pretty good article on RAB.
A thought on trading Phil Hughes:
http://riveraveblues.com/2011/…..hes-56245/
==============================
Nice piece. I’m also warming up to the idea of trading Hughes, where I was once adamantly opposed. Times change. At the the trade deadline, I suggested making Hughes the centerpiece of a package to bring back Ubaldo. Unfortunately, the Rox weren’t interested in Hughes. Still, Hughes has plenty of value, and the Yanks are pitching-rich. Hughes could be traded away for a solid, young outfielder, another starting pitcher, or even an infielder to shore up the left side of the infield.
At this point, the Yanks have given Hughes enough of a chance at playing such that trading him away won’t be nearly precipitous as bundling him in a package with a number of other prized prospects to bring back Santana. In other words, Hughes isn’t a prospect anymore. He is a pretty good player that quite possibly could help the Yankees more as a trading chip than as a member of the Yankee roster, and who could benefit from a change of scenery.
Suffice it to say, that the clock is ticking on Huhges, and he will be worth more as a starter than as a bullpen pitcher.
Hughes value is the lowest its ever been. They wouldn’t get squat for him. Not comparing the players but it would be the same as if the Mets were going to try and trade Wright after 2009
Triple Short of a Cycle September 16th, 2011 at 12:40 pm
Hughes value is the lowest its ever been. They wouldn’t get squat for him. Not comparing the players but it would be the same as if the Mets were going to try and trade Wright after 2009.
======
What’s your point? David Wright? Didn’t he have a decent year in ’09? At any rate, assuming Wright had a bade year, then taking a gamble on Wright after the 2009 season would have been a good deal for a club in need of a third baseman for the right price.
As part of a package, I think Hughes could bring back some value. Just because the Rox didn’t want him doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have any value.
LGY September 16th, 2011 at 12:27 pm
Granderson strikes out way too much and a .260 batting average does not a team centerpiece make. Bautista, Gonzalez, Martinez and Cabrera are that and are hitting over .300.
——————–
Martinez as in Victor Martinez??
**********
Yes, Martinez along with Cabrera is a centerpiece of the Tigers. He has a lifetime slash line of
.302/.369/.458/.859
The Grandy Man Can Song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW24NRxOUwo
Ghostwriter,
You are missing the point. You don’t trade a guy who is coming off his worst season and expect to maximize his value. Don’t you think the Yankees would have gotten a ton more if they traded Joba after 2007 then if they decided to trade him this past off season?
Selling low on a young player is never a good idea unless the return is significant ……the Yanks just likely wouldn’t get enough back to warrant parting with his potential (much like Joba after 2009)……the exception would be if he was a piece in a larger dealnfor a star player……that’s the only way I coukd see them moving him.
Yes, Martinez along with Cabrera is a centerpiece of the Tigers. He has a lifetime slash line of
.302/.369/.458/.859
——————–
You are telling me that not only is Victor Martinez a centerpiece stick but has a better bat than Curtis Granderson?
Victor Martinez?
Everyone with a reasonable contract is tradeable, including Hughes if the price is right. I think his trade value is low right now due to the injuries. Assuming someone wants him and will offer good value, the Yankees will have to evaluate if the upside potential they think Hughes has is more than what they get.
I personally value pitching more than anything and think Hughes has a good future ahead of him so it would have to be a Granderson type of return for me to do that deal.
Who the hell is Henderson Alvarez, and can someone buy him a first name?
LGY September 16th, 2011 at 12:50 pm
Yes, Martinez along with Cabrera is a centerpiece of the Tigers. He has a lifetime slash line of
.302/.369/.458/.859
——————–
You are telling me that not only is Victor Martinez a centerpiece stick but has a better bat than Curtis Granderson?
Victor Martinez?
*************
Stop with your garbage trolling to start an argument I never said I would choose one player over another. I was responding to Triple Short of a Cycle’s comment that the Yankees will be built around Grandy, Cano and Montero and pointing out that the Cabrera and Martinez are centerpieces of their team, the Tigers, and are hitting over .300. Different teams different realities.
Granderson and Martinez, or Cabrera, or AGon, others I mentioned are all different players that play different positions and have different value to their teams.
Triple Short of a Cycle September 16th, 2011 at 12:49 pm
Ghostwriter,
You are missing the point. You don’t trade a guy who is coming off his worst season and expect to maximize his value. Don’t you think the Yankees would have gotten a ton more if they traded Joba after 2007 then if they decided to trade him this past off season?
================
The object of the game is not to maximize a given player’s value; the object of the game is to win baseball games and championships. It isn’t clear to me how moving Hughes would impede those goals. Even so, nobody here knows whether or not Hughes has bottomed out. He may ounce back in 2012, but he may not. If he doesn’t bounce back in 2011, then he will have no value to speak of. Right now, the Yankees can sell his potential, his periods of success, and the possibility that Hughes could become a consistent starter. Next year, they won’t be able to do that if Hughes flounders again. It makes sense for the Yanks to cut their losses on Hughes while they still can do so, especially considering the depth of pitching in the organization. Right now, Hughes looks to me as likely to become a bullpen pitcher as he is to become a consistent starter.
Obviously, I’m not suggesting giving him away for a bag of balls. I do think that he has value, even if he winds up being only can be a short reliever. However, in the right package to bring back a good position player or pitcher, I think that Cashman would be nuts not to consider it.
Trolling? I thought you welcome anyone challenging your baseball opinions?
You said: Granderson strikes out way too much and a .260 batting average does not a team centerpiece make.
Then: Bautista, Gonzalez, Martinez and Cabrera are that and are hitting over .300.
Any logical interpretation of those statements are that you believe that Granderson is not a centerpiece bat, but Victor Martinez is. Nothing about different team realities. Simply that Victor Martinez is a bat you can build a lineup around, while you cannot with Granderson because of his strikeouts and batting average.
Therefore, you said that Victor Martinez is a better offensive player than Curtis Granderson. I am challenging that baseball opinion like you claim you always welcome.
Ghost – the fact that you wanted to trade for Jimenez speaks volumes about your ability to assess baseball talent.
pretty favorable matchups for the Yanks here….2 of 3 is a minimum here.
If I were the Yanks I’d call up Kenny Williams and see if he’d be interested in Hughes + for Danks. Hughes has an additional year of control and has the upside to be as good as Danks or maybe even better. Don’t know if they’d be interested and it if they were then the “+” part would have to be known….
Niblick September 16th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Ghost – the fact that you wanted to trade for Jimenez speaks volumes about your ability to assess baseball talent.
=======
The fact that you offer a cheap insult instead of an actual argument speaks volumes about you.
LGY – I never said any player was better than any other. “Are that” references that they are the centerpieces or go to guys on their teams. That is true about Cabrera and Martinez on the Tigers. I do not believe it is true about Granderson on the Yankees. I think you can say that about A-Rod in the past and Cano now. That is all semantics, the bottom line is that Granderson as good as he has been this year in certain hitting categories is very weak in others given that he is a .260′s hitter who is 4th in the AL in strikeouts.
Trading for Jimenez wouldn’t have been a bad idea had the price been better…..
blake September 16th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
Trading for Jimenez wouldn’t have been a bad idea had the price been better…..
=========
Precisely. I would have been wiling to part with Hughes and maybe Cervelli or some low-level prospects. I would not have been willing to trade Montero or the B-s.
Sorry, but what exactly makes Martinez a center piece of the Tigers but Granderson not of the Yankees?
Phil’s value is really low right now. They couldn’t get much for him. They’re better off keeping him and hoping he regains some MPH on his fastball and looks better overall.
FakePeteGammons 2 hours Just because Theo didn’t draft Lester or trade for Beckett doesn’t mean he can’t develop SP. Weiland, Bowden, Tazawa among best in game.
Ghost – just look at the numbers he’s posted this year. Or don’t you want to look at the facts? As for cheap insults, if you’re going to offer your opinions, then be prepared to be criticized for them. If not, just stay in your basement.
LGY September 16th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Sorry, but what exactly makes Martinez a center piece of the Tigers but Granderson not of the Yankees?
*************
I answered. Because I do not think that a .260′s BA and 160 strike outs qualifies one as being a centerpiece on the Yankees. Cano is the centerpiece on the Yankees. Cabrera and Martinez are on the Tigers.
This conversation about whether Granderson is a centerpiece is ridiculous.
The guy is leading baseball in XBH (or he’s in the top 3, depending on how it’s changed in the past few days). He’s got 10 triples, over 20 SB, a very solid OBP, and ~40 HR. He leads baseball in runs scored and RBI.
How is he not a centerpiece? I mean, come on. Sure, Bautista is probably a better player overall, but that doesn’t mean that Granderson isn’t a centerpiece. BA is overrated as a statistic, especially when so many of granderson’s hits are for extra bases and he steals so many bases while driving in runs.
I think it’s absurd to say that Cano is someone to build a team around but Granderson isn’t. Granderson this year is hands down better than Cano.
Niblick September 16th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Ghost – just look at the numbers he’s posted this year. Or don’t you want to look at the facts? As for cheap insults, if you’re going to offer your opinions, then be prepared to be criticized for them. If not, just stay in your basement.
================
If you want to criticize my opinions with actual facts, then do so. If you want to name-call and launch into character assassination, then you can shove it.
And yes, I’m fully aware of his numbers this year. Is checking out a player’s most recent stats how you “assess baseball talent?” Color me unimpressed.
Doesn’t sound too good on the Youkka’s hip….he’s sitting out tonight.
I answered. Because I do not think that a .260?s BA and 160 strike outs qualifies one as being a centerpiece on the Yankees. Cano is the centerpiece on the Yankees. Cabrera and Martinez are on the Tigers.
—–
If the Yankees had signed Martinez this past offseason instead of the Tigers would you still consider him a centerpiece bat?
“Granderson this year is hands down better than Cano.”
eh….if you asked me right now which player I think the Yanks could better survive without…I’d say Cano. Granderson is a centerpiece type player though if he shows that this season is the player he is now….he’s been this player though since last August so I think he is.
So Phil goes on Monday and AJ opens up against the Rays on Tues.??
LGY September 16th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
If the Yankees had signed Martinez this past offseason instead of the Tigers would you still consider him a centerpiece bat?
************
It depends on his performance, different team, different stadium, different players hitting before him and after. Speculative.
I am astounded that some here value Granderson more than Cano on this team.
Would Boston be a better team today if they would have re-signed Beltre and Vmart instead of aquiring Gonzalez and Crawford?
Gonzalez is still the best player of those 4…..but Beltre and Vmart have both outperformed Crawford by a very wide margin. Also you have to consider that had they not signed Gonzalez…..Youkalis would still be playing 1B and may not be hurt right now……and they’d still have the greatest pitching prospect ever.
I meant they’d better survive without Granderson than Cano
WCYF
Alright, fair enough. How about this?
Granderson shares your concerns about his strikeouts and batting average. He spends all winter trying improve in those areas by cutting down on his swing.
Next season, with his new shortened swing, he gets his BA up to. 300 and cuts his strikeouts down significantly. However, his power is also seriously affected and his OPS drops 100 points.
Would you consider him a centerpiece then?
blake September 16th, 2011 at 1:41 pm
Would Boston be a better team today if they would have re-signed Beltre and Vmart instead of aquiring Gonzalez and Crawford?
Gonzalez is still the best player of those 4…..but Beltre and Vmart have both outperformed Crawford by a very wide margin. Also you have to consider that had they not signed Gonzalez…..Youkalis would still be playing 1B and may not be hurt right now……and they’d still have the greatest pitching prospect ever.
===============
It was a huge break fir the Ynaks that the Sox chose to sink so many resources into signing Crawford. If the Sox still had VMart or Beltre, then they would have been very tough for the Yanks to overcome, to say the least.
Are you astounded, WCYF? What about the fact that Granderson’s WAR is higher than Cano’s and he’s leading Cano in every offensive category except BA? Granderson’s played better defense. He’s stolen more bases.
But you’re ASTOUNDED that people value Granderson more this year than Cano? Really?
Maybe you need to choose a different word because it’s easy to see how people would feel that Granderson is more valuable to this year’s team than Cano. There isn’t a statistic from this season that is telling anyone otherwise – and the Granderson’s passing the eye test, too.
I’m not “astounded” that you think Cano is a better player or that you value him more. I’m a little bit confused, perhaps, maybe somewhat curious as to your reasoning, but astounded is leaps and bounds beyond what I’d say it amounts to.
blake September 16th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
I meant they’d better survive without Granderson than Cano
===============
If the Yanks were without either of them, they wouldn’t have much success this postseason. They are both way too important right now. Filling in for Grandy and/or Cano would be a lot to to overcome. That’s a lot of lost production to replace.
Lets take a look:
2011 WAR:
Gonzalez : 6.2
Crawford: 0.1 (which illustrates just how bad Crawford has been because Fangraphs weighs defense a lot in their WAR apparently.
Beltre: 4.9
VMart: 2.4
If you go by this the Sox actually have lost a win by swapping Beltre and Vmart for Gonzalez and Crawford……Boston’s offense is better this year not because of these moves but because Ellsbury has played out of his mind….because Pedroia has been healty….and because Papi returned from the dead………I believe the Sox would be a better (and cheaper) lineup had they re-signed their own guys last winter.
Ghost,
my reasoning is that if they lost Granderson (heaven forbid) then they could put Jonesy in LF and move Gardner to CF…..that would be a lot better than having Nunez play 2B every day if Cano went down. Also…..Cano is still a better overall hitter than Granderson
Granderson is a very complete player. However he has caught the Teix disease. He’s pulling off the ball horribly. Through his swing he’s facing RF. Teams are starting to shift on him. All that MVP talk. Fortunately he seems to be aware of the problem. There’s hope that he will correct that bad habit prior to PS. I’ve always been about “Zone hitting and Quality at bats”
Cano had the disease midseason but he changed his approach and has been his old self.
WCYF
Alright, fair enough. How about this? Granderson shares your concerns about his strikeouts and batting average. He spends all winter trying improve in those areas by cutting down on his swing. Next season, with his new shortened swing, he gets his BA up to. 300 and cuts his strikeouts down significantly. However, his power is also seriously affected and his OPS drops 100 points. Would you consider him a centerpiece then?
************
Depends on what our other players are doing. But would I prefer that Granderson hit over .300 and struck out 100 times instead of 180 – with 30 home runs instead of 40 and an .825 OPS instead of a .925 OPS. Absolutely, in a heartbeat.
Bo knows September 16th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Granderson is a very complete player.
***********
How can one say that given his BA and strikeouts.
Add me to the list of folks who thinks Granderson is better than Cano.
game on the line I want Cano up there over Granderson…..Robbie is a much tougher out against dominant pitching because he can hit everything…..you can get Granderson out if you make the right pitches. JMO….not a knock on the Grandyman because he’s great….but Cano is the Yanks best player and has been since Alex has started having the injury woes.
blake,
Fair enough. I just hate the idea of choosing between them. Cano is undoubtedly the better pure hitter than Grandy. Cano is quite evidently a natural. Grandy is very talented, but I don’t think that he is as gifted as Cano. While Grandy has had a much more productive season than Cano, I think that they are equally likely to catch fire, and carry the Yanks in the post-season.
West Coast Yankee Fan September 16th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
WCYF
Alright, fair enough. How about this? Granderson shares your concerns about his strikeouts and batting average. He spends all winter trying improve in those areas by cutting down on his swing. Next season, with his new shortened swing, he gets his BA up to. 300 and cuts his strikeouts down significantly. However, his power is also seriously affected and his OPS drops 100 points. Would you consider him a centerpiece then?
************
Depends on what our other players are doing. But would I prefer that Granderson hit over .300 and struck out 100 times instead of 180 – with 30 home runs instead of 40 and an .825 OPS instead of a .925 OPS. Absolutely, in a heartbeat.
=============
Wou would rather see that Granderson had his OPS 100 points lower than it is??????
Granderson has a ton of ability as a hitter….lightning wrists and (now) a very short compact swing. Cano has one of the top 5 swings in baseball though and when he’s locked in there is nowhere to pitch him……maybe I’m old school but I still prefer all things being equal for a guy to not strike out and Cano just doesn’t that much because has such a knack for putting the bat on the ball….that gets him into trouble sometimes but I still think its a great gift to have.
WCYF
That’s pretty extreme thinking. You are basically sacrificing a bunch of HRs for more singles and less strikeouts. As you know a HR has significantly more value than a single.
I’d also like to point out that it would be basically impossible for Granderson to get his BA up to 300, hit 30 HR, and only have an 825 Ops.
What you would really get is something like 15 HR. You still signing up for that?
I think Cano’s best could be 40 homers, 40 doubles, .330 average and a ton of RBI’s. I’m still waiting for that monster ….best player in baseball type season that I believe he has in him
Granderson has a ton of ability as a hitter….lightning wrists and (now) a very short compact swing. Cano has one of the top 5 swings in baseball though and when he’s locked in there is nowhere to pitch him……maybe I’m old school but I still prefer all things being equal for a guy to not strike out and Cano just doesn’t that much because has such a knack for putting the bat on the ball….that gets him into trouble sometimes but I still think its a great gift to have.
————————–
Totally agree. Nothing kills a rally like a SO or the mighty pop up. I’m still totally surprised about the lack of situational hitting by the Yankees.
LGY September 16th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
WCYF
That’s pretty extreme thinking. You are basically sacrificing a bunch of HRs for more singles and less strikeouts. As you know a HR has significantly more value than a single…
================================
The big knock on Granderson at this point are his strikeouts and his batting average. The strikeouts and batting average matter only insofar asthey impede on run production for the Yanks. Looking at his situational hitting, he has struck out 84 times with runners on base, with 50 of these Ks coming with runners in scoring position. So, if he could have gotten a few more hits (say 15 hits) in these situations instead of striking out, then it probably would have been a positive net trade, giving up a few homers for more base hits.
Cano is an EASY out if you save the high fastball for the right time.
WCYF,
I’d also like to point out that by saying you would rather Grandy’s OPS be 100 points lower with less strikeouts and more BA, you are saying you prefer Victor Martinez.
Granderson: .265/.367/.558 .925 OPS, 71 1B, 22 2B, 10 3B, 39 HR. 159 Ks.
Martinez: .323/.372/.458 .825 OPS, 115 1B, 34 2B, 0 3B, 11 HR. 50 Ks.
You would sign up for Granderson to be like Martinez in a heartbeat. You would sacrifice 100 points in OPS for way less strikeouts and much higher BA.
So, indeed you DO think that Victor Martinez is a better offensive player than Curtis Granderson.
Totally agree. Nothing kills a rally like a SO or the mighty pop up. I’m still totally surprised about the lack of situational hitting by the Yankees.
——————
Actually, a double play is the biggest rally killer.
Blake, that is an interesting analysis of Martinez and Beltre vs. GOnzo and Crawford. Add to that the fact those moves forced Youkilis to play third every day, which hastened his physical decline. For this year, I think the Sox may be worse off. Though long term, I think Gonzo and Crawford outperform what they had last year. Youk is on his way out, however, unless they keep him as DH when Ortiz retires.
LGY September 16th, 2011 at 2:15 pm
Totally agree. Nothing kills a rally like a SO or the mighty pop up. I’m still totally surprised about the lack of situational hitting by the Yankees.
——————
Actually, a double play is the biggest rally killer.
=================
True. I would much rather see a guy strike out with a man on third than hit into a double-play. Still, strikouts are probably the second-worst thing that can happen.
TravonFree My iPad just auto corrected “you” to “Youkilis” and now I must destroy it. (cc @baldvinny) #UltimateBetrayal #Yankees
So, if he could have gotten a few more hits (say 15 hits) in these situations instead of striking out, then it probably would have been a positive net trade, giving up a few homers for more base hits.
——————————–
That sums it up totally. Curtis is a victim of his own success. The object of the exercise is run production as in controled swing.
can anyone tell me who are the players the yankees must protect on the 40 man roster this winter or lose them to the rure 5 draft ?
“Cano is an EASY out if you save the high fastball for the right time.”
when he’s right he doesn’t swing at that pitch….pitch selection is the only thing keeping him from being the best player in baseball IMO
tucker,
except that those 2 contracts are very long and Crawford’s deal is going to limit other moves if he doesn’t turn it around. They could have gotten Beltre and Martinez much chepaer….and more shorter term
they are both great players,
if men are on and we need a hit im goin with arod and cano and even jeter,
unfortantly granderson is not on top of that list,
Yeah, good point. Crawford at Fenway never made much baseball sense. He makes them a better road team defensively, but his speed doesn’ help much in left at Fenway. I think Theo really saw it as a signing that would reinvigorate the fan base, which was tuning out toward the end of last year. The risk is that Crawford begins to fade ala Mike Cameron as he ages.
blake,
Where would they have played Beltre?
Doc Iac September 16th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
they are both great players,
if men are on and we need a hit im goin with arod and cano and even jeter,
unfortantly granderson is not on top of that list,
================
Tex is also pretty productive in these situations.
Actually, a double play is the biggest rally killer.
————————————————————-
You see there’s the conumdrum. Walks are the latest but man on second and taking a walk sets up the DP. Situational hitting.
It’s one of those “If I can’t have lunch I’ll have a sandwich”.
Mattingly was probably the greatest I have ever seen.
Metta World Peace is official… Damn I was thinkin about takin dibs on that name.
LGY September 16th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
WCYF – That’s pretty extreme thinking. You are basically sacrificing a bunch of HRs for more singles and less strikeouts. As you know a HR has significantly more value than a single. I’d also like to point out that it would be basically impossible for Granderson to get his BA up to 300, hit 30 HR, and only have an 825 Ops. What you would really get is something like 15 HR. You still signing up for that?
**********************
I disagree with the 15 home runs – you can hit 30 home runs with an OPS of .25 or lower. To prove that, these are home run totals of players “to-date” this year with OPS less than .825:
Kinsler – 29
Willingham – 26
Hardy – 26
Trumbo – 27
sp – with an OPS of .825 or lower
Tex is also pretty productive in these situations.
——————————-
as long as its not late and close
Are we really talking about Curtis Granderson’s batting average right now?
Mattingly was probably the greatest I have ever seen.
——-
In productive out situations over his career, Don Mattingly was successful 37% of the time.
Guess the percentages for Grandy and Tex this year.
West Coast Yankee Fan September 16th, 2011 at 2:36 pm
LGY September 16th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
WCYF – That’s pretty extreme thinking. You are basically sacrificing a bunch of HRs for more singles and less strikeouts. As you know a HR has significantly more value than a single. I’d also like to point out that it would be basically impossible for Granderson to get his BA up to 300, hit 30 HR, and only have an 825 Ops. What you would really get is something like 15 HR. You still signing up for that?
**********************
I disagree with the 15 home runs – you can hit 30 home runs with an OPS of .25 or lower. To prove that, these are home run totals of players “to-date” this year with OPS less than .825:
Kinsler – 29
Willingham – 26
Hardy – 26
Trumbo – 27
======
Good grief. Let me guess–they either have mediocre batting averages (i.e less than Grandersons’s .270-ish BA), or they haven’t had very many ABs this year.
WCYF
You misunderstood. You can’t hit 300 AND 30 HR with only have an 825 Ops.
As you know, singles contribute to OPS as well.
LGY September 16th, 2011 at 2:15 pm
So, indeed you DO think that Victor Martinez is a better offensive player than Curtis Granderson.
************
No I don’t LGY. You are being totally disingenuous. I said they are different players, on different teams, who play in different stadiums, who play different positions, have different players hitting before them, etc.
The discussion was about being a centerpiece on their respective teams not who was a better player.
I disagree with the 15 home runs – you can hit 30 home runs with an OPS of .25 or lower. To prove that, these are home run totals of players “to-date” this year with OPS less than .825:
Kinsler – 29
Willingham – 26
Hardy – 26
Trumbo – 27
—
Kinsler is hitting .249
Willingham is hitting .253
Hardy is hitting .264 (.305 obp)
Trumbo is hitting .256 (.295 obp)
These are the guys you’d rather have than Granderson?
Guess the percentages for Grandy and Tex this year.
—————————————
So we do Mattingly’s career and the other two this year. Heh.
In passing if you get a chance listen to K Law on ESPN. He talked about the Toronto drafting situation, where he started as the stats weiny and then came around to a more balanced approach re scouting.
My biggest chuckle is the choir at Rab dunning Binder Joe.
Yep, I was right:
Kinsler – 29; .249
Willingham – 26; .253
Hardy – 26; .264
Trumbo – 27; .256
So, basically unless the idea is to get a les productive player than Granderson, then I don’t think that pulling for an OPS 100 points lower than what he has been producing at is a good idea.
So we do Mattingly’s career and the other two this year. Heh.
——
I just said this year because you are complaining about their at bats from this season.
Feel free to guess their career marks if you prefer that method.
Correction: I should have said above:
“Good grief. Let me guess–they have mediocre batting averages (i.e less than Grandersons’s .270-ish BA).”
Jacksquat September 16th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
These are the guys you’d rather have than Granderson?
************
It’s amazing to me how some cannot follow a conversation. I never said anything about preferring those players. I was specifically refuting LGY’s contention that a player with lower than an .825 OPS would hit 15 home runs. That is clearly not the case – and that is all I was illustrating.
West Coast Yankee Fan September 16th, 2011 at 2:49 pm
Jacksquat September 16th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
These are the guys you’d rather have than Granderson?
************
It’s amazing to me how some cannot follow a conversation. I never said anything about preferring those players. I was specifically refuting LGY’s contention that a player with lower than an .825 OPS would hit 15 home runs. That is clearly not the case – and that is all I was illustrating.
===============
It’d be nice if you could have a conversation without insulting people, especially when you’re the one that seems to be having trouble following the conversation. LGY clearly indicated that it would be impossible for a player to have a .300 BA, 30 home runs, and an OPS of less than .825.
Your examples did not satisfy the .300 BA condition. Basically, you posted the names aof several players that are less productive than Granderson. I don’t think that represents an improvement of any sort.
West Coast Yankee Fan September 16th, 2011 at 2:49 pm
Jacksquat September 16th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
These are the guys you’d rather have than Granderson?
************
It’s amazing to me how some cannot follow a conversation. I never said anything about preferring those players. I was specifically refuting LGY’s contention that a player with lower than an .825 OPS would hit 15 home runs. That is clearly not the case – and that is all I was illustrating.
—
Uh, no, you aren’t getting out of it like that. You either take those type of players, or like LGY said, much less power and the higher batting average you want.
You are losing this debate, you should concede and move on. But we all know that won’t happen because you never admit you are wrong.
jacksquat September 16th, 2011 at 2:53 pm
======================================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690
That is because I am not wrong and there is no debate. It is my opinion. I am not overly enamored with a player that hits in the .260′s with 170+ strike outs.
If you want to call that player the centerpiece of the team and you prefer him to Robbie Cano be my guest.
BloggingBombers Brett Cecil has been scratched by the Blue Jays for tonight’s start. Dustin McGowan will start for Toronto against the Yankees.
No I don’t LGY. You are being totally disingenuous. I said they are different players, on different teams, who play in different stadiums, who play different positions, have different players hitting before them, etc.
The discussion was about being a centerpiece on their respective teams not who was a better player.
———————
The discussion morphed and advanced from the original talking point, as many discussions do. The main focus simply became what you prefer Curtis Granderson to do.
You would prefer if Granderson raised his BA and cut down on the strike outs even if it meant he hit for less power.
So, I looked up some stats and noticed that the player you are looking for Granderson to be is Victor Martinez.
Victor has a high BA, low strikeout rate, and an OPS 100 points lower than Granderson because he hits for way less power. You would prefer if Granderson would put up Victor Martinez’s numbers instead of what he has done this season.
The logic follows, that therefore, you believe Victor Martinez is a BETTER OFFENSIVE player than Curtis Granderson.
It’s that simple based on what you have said.
West Coast Yankee Fan September 16th, 2011 at 3:02 pm
That is because I am not wrong and there is no debate. It is my opinion.
====================
You made factual assertions that were disproven.
You basically said I wish Granderson put up the exact same offensive numbers as Victor Martinez and then claimed that you don’t actually think Martinez is a better offensive player…
Somebody ought to be able to figure out what the OPS of a .300 hitter with 30 HRs and ALL the rest singles would be over 600 at bats. End this.
Tom: OPS .750
NYYROC,
Thanks. Does that include bases on balls, at a league average rate?
Tom,
We are talking about a realistic scenario which is why I originally said basically impossible.
If a player hit 30 HR, the rest singles, and didn’t walk a single time all season his OPS would only be .750.
Realistically though, it’s impossible to find a player with that kind of component slash line.
No, I just used the parameters you suggested as follows: .300 @ 600 PA =180 hits. #0 are HRs (120 TB, 150 singles (150 TB)= 270 TB/ 600PA = .450SLG. OBP is .300 (just BA, dn include BBs). .450 =.300 =OPS .750.
edit 30 are HRs
I looked up McGowan and noticed he’s made two starts this month. I guess he’s coming off an injury.
ESPN had a small bit of news of him as well that I wanted to share:
The good news was that he managed to throw 75 pitches.
Right now, the bigger deal for McGowan is to stay pain-free after this outing. If he can rebound in his upcoming starts, the Jays will be more than willing to treat this start as a mere bump in the road back from two shoulder surgeries.
edit .450 + .300=OPS .750 (my math is good my typing is bad!)
LGY,
I realized the weakness of my original question, and then threw in league-average walks. I think your point about intentionally reducing OPS to raise batting average being foolish is absolutely correct. I want my Granderson, not their Martinez.
Ledger_Yankees Your magic numbers today are 7 for the postseason and 10 for the division. #nyy
BloggingBombers Bodog.com has new odds on who A-Rod will date next: Actress (1/1), Model (3/2), Musician (5/2), Athlete (7/1). Bets must be confirmed by TMZ
Ledger_Yankees #NYY PR says the team left Seattle at midnight, landed in Toronto at 6:55 a.m. yesterday. Went through customs and got to hotel 8:45 a.m.
tomingeorgia September 16th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
Somebody ought to be able to figure out what the OPS of a .300 hitter with 30 HRs and ALL the rest singles would be over 600 at bats. End this.
==================
Tom,
Your exercise really wouldn’t settle the issue, because you would far understate the likely slugging percentage, because a guy that hits 30 home runs will almost certainly have his share of doubles as well. (BTW, the answer to your question–asuming 600 ABs–180 hits, and 30 home runs is .450)
It would be impossible to have an .825 BA, 30 home runs, and a .300 BA at the same time (asuming 600, or so, AB). The only way that it would be conceivable is if the player in question didn’t walk, making the BA roughly equal to the OBP.
OPS=OBP PCT+ Slugging
.825 =.300 + .525
If you hit 30 homers, then you are almost guaranteed to slug more than .515, which would mean the player would have to have an OBP approximately equal to his BA.
“blake,
Where would they have played Beltre?”
third base….
I hope MgGowen starting instead of Cecil doesn’t mean Girardi will lefty/righty Montero out of the lineup
I don’t know about you guys…..but I prefer .300 BA, .400 OBP, and .600 SLG in my ballplayers
EDIT:
“It would be almost impossible to have an .825 BA, 30 home runs, and a .300 BA at the same time (asuming 600, or so, AB).”
blake September 16th, 2011 at 3:28 pm
I don’t know about you guys…..but I prefer .300 BA, .400 OBP, and .600 SLG in my ballplayers
===
More is better, as usual
KayShowESPN #Yankees Closer Mariano Rivera will join us NOW here on ESPN NY 1050 & ESPNNY.com from the clubhouse in Toronto.
eboland11 No lineup as yet…players just starting to filter in
I would guess that money and the like aside, there isn’t a major league team that would not want V. Mart or Granderson on their team.
I wanna know where this .825 BA guy is…..I bet he’s in the Red Sox farm system somewhere hidden from the rest of the world to use as a secret weapon
LGY September 16th, 2011 at 3:10 pm
No I don’t LGY. You are being totally disingenuous. I said they are different players, on different teams, who play in different stadiums, who play different positions, have different players hitting before them, etc.
The discussion was about being a centerpiece on their respective teams not who was a better player.
———————
The discussion morphed and advanced from the original talking point, as many discussions do. The main focus simply became what you prefer Curtis Granderson to do.
You would prefer if Granderson raised his BA and cut down on the strike outs even if it meant he hit for less power.
So, I looked up some stats and noticed that the player you are looking for Granderson to be is Victor Martinez.
Victor has a high BA, low strikeout rate, and an OPS 100 points lower than Granderson because he hits for way less power. You would prefer if Granderson would put up Victor Martinez’s numbers instead of what he has done this season.
The logic follows, that therefore, you believe Victor Martinez is a BETTER OFFENSIVE player than Curtis Granderson.
It’s that simple based on what you have said.
========
It’s pretty clear that the .100 lower OPS to .825 wasn’t just pulled out of thin air. Strange conversation…
Ghost,
Of course, you’re correct. Let me put it a slightly different way: .300 BA, 30 HR, and league average doubles, triples and walks would result in a pretty good OPS, I’d think. Again, the point is that reducing OPS by cutting Ks never did make any sense to me.
blake September 16th, 2011 at 3:34 pm
I wanna know where this .825 BA guy is…..I bet he’s in the Red Sox farm system somewhere hidden from the rest of the world to use as a secret weapon
=============
There are lots of .825 OPS guys in the league. Personally, I’d rahter have a .925 OPS guy, because those are a little harder to come by…
I’m sure Betsy will have a field day with knowing that the guy stalking her for not being overly enamored with Phil Hughes is not overly enamored with Curtis Granderson
What ever happened to good old fashion discussions about baseball ?
munson15 September 16th, 2011 at 3:41 pm
What ever happened to good old fashion discussions about baseball ?
******************************************************************
Didn’t you hear-The Yankees did not win yesterday, so this board has gone to hell
as a result!
tomingeorgia September 16th, 2011 at 3:37 pm
Ghost,
Of course, you’re correct. Let me put it a slightly different way: .300 BA, 30 HR, and league average doubles, triples and walks would result in a pretty good OPS, I’d think. Again, the point is that reducing OPS by cutting Ks never did make any sense to me.
======
Westy has a point about the willingness to trade some power production in favor of fewer strikeouts. I discussed this tradeofff with respect to Granderson in my post at 2:14 pm above. Yes, I would rather see his OPS down a few points( because he has few homers) if his RBIs went up enough to offset the decline in homers. Westy just made his point badly.
Ghost,
Got it. Thanks.
Thanks for the heads up about the Mo interview Erin. That was great!
I made my point perfectly. Guys that hit .260 and strike out 180 times a year are not ideal in my opinion and they certainly not the MVP in the AL this year.
I love Curtis Granderson and what he has done in the power and RBI department this season. I would say the same about Teixeira. But neither is the centerpiece of this team’s offense IMO.
JonLaneNYC #Yankees finish will be a grind. Landed in T.O. 6:45 Thurs morning, got to hotel 8:45. Will play 14 games over season?s final 13 days
rb- my pleasure
I’ll compromise. Grandy can hit .285 with 30 HRs and 115 strikeouts.
BTX,
Deal, but let’s make it 39 HRs, and 122 Ks
tomingeorgia September 16th, 2011 at 3:45 pm
Ghost,
Got it. Thanks.
=================
One more thing: The funny part is that silly digression on dropping the OPS by 100 points largely misses the point. If Granderson have 20 more base hits (preferably with runners in scoring position) and 10 fewer homers, then not only would Granderson’s average increase to about .300, but Grandy’s OPS actually would have increased a several points over where it is now.
West Coast Yankee Fan September 16th, 2011 at 3:54 pm
I made my point perfectly….
=======
Yeh, sure you did. That’s why you just lost an argument in which you actually had a valid point. :LOL:
They work 3 hours a day. 18-24 hour work weeks is hard to consider a ” grind”.
Ghost,
you wrote .825 BA
Ghost,
I understand the underpinnings of the advanced stats, but Granderson has surely looked good this year to my eyes, which is why I watch baseball.
Yankees Oklahoma Christian University will officially dedicate the new Bobby Murcer Indoor Training Facility on Sept. 23.
blake September 16th, 2011 at 4:03 pm
Ghost,
you wrote .825 BA
=================
Heh. My brain is faster than my fingers!
# Tabbert September 16th, 2011 at 4:01 pm
They work 3 hours a day. 18-24 hour work weeks is hard to consider a ” grind”.
———–
Get real. These guys don’t just fall out of bed and take the field.
Tom,
Me too. Granderson has looked great to me. I just like playing around with the numbers a bit.
You get real. They make more in a single ab than families make a year. Traveling is tiring, working out is tiring. But lets face it, these guys are fine dining, living it up, and playing a game for maybe all of 20 hours a week. If thats a grind, sign me up.
I’m trying to figure out why someone would want a player to be less productive…
Ghost,
Anybody ever looked at Mike Schmidt, Mickey Mantle, Reggie Jackson, Jim Thome for strikeouts per season? For now, I’ll take the RBIs and runs that Granderson puts up. He works hard on his game, and the K rate will come down.
blake September 16th, 2011 at 3:34 pm
I wanna know where this .825 BA guy is…..I bet he’s in the Red Sox farm system somewhere hidden from the rest of the world to use as a secret weapon
———————-
Nick in SF could not have said it better.
Tabbert,
If you have any talent, enough to get drafted, put in five or six years in the minors, somehow make it to MLB, survive a few more years there with good enough output, then you, too, could get the big bucks. I failed step one, alas.
Tabbert September 16th, 2011 at 4:12 pm
You get real. They make more in a single ab than families make a year. Traveling is tiring, working out is tiring. But lets face it, these guys are fine dining, living it up, and playing a game for maybe all of 20 hours a week. If thats a grind, sign me up.
========
That sounds like sour grapes to me. The idea of being on the road 3 out 6 months doesn’t sound like fun to me. The nice hotels and restaurants doubtlessly lightens the load a bit, but all of that travel is still tiring. In addition to playing 20 to 25 hours a week, they have to condition themselves, watch tape, and prepare for games. I suspect that most of them work just as hard as you do, and some might even work a good deal harder.
jonmorosi Change: Dustin McGowan to start for #BlueJays vs #Yankees tonight. Brett Cecil sustained cut on his left index finger.
# Tabbert September 16th, 2011 at 4:12 pm
You get real. They make more in a single ab than families make a year. Traveling is tiring, working out is tiring. But lets face it, these guys are fine dining, living it up, and playing a game for maybe all of 20 hours a week. If thats a grind, sign me up.
———–
They’ve had to pay their dues to get there. They didn’t just graduate from high school or college and go straight to the major leagues.
We would all like to have that gig, but they had the talent, determination, and commitment to get to this point.
Kudos to them.
eboland11 Still no lineup but Cano just came through clubhouse walking much better than Wednesday in Seattle
Yay!!!!
JackCurryYES Stats of the day: Jose Bautista is 0 for 18 with 8 strikeouts off CC Sabathia. Meanwhile, Mark Teahen is 12-38 off CC.
tomingeorgia September 16th, 2011 at 4:14 pm
Ghost,
Anybody ever looked at Mike Schmidt, Mickey Mantle, Reggie Jackson, Jim Thome for strikeouts per season? For now, I’ll take the RBIs and runs that Granderson puts up. He works hard on his game, and the K rate will come down.
=========================
BB SO BA OBP Slug OPS
Schmidt: 102/127/0.267/0.38/0.527/0.908
Mantle: 117/115/0.298/0.421/0.557/0.977
Jackson: 79/149/0.262/0.356/0.49/0.846
Thome: 112/162/0.277/0.403/0.556/0.958
Cecil must be hanging out with Freddy.
Haha, sour grapes? I love these guys and admire their talent. Im not jealous or envy any of them. Yes, they travel a lot and their bodies get taxed. But, your failing to realize they work 20 hours a week for 6 months. I was simply stating this ” grind” thing is over blown. Its not like these guys are about to just fall apart and are just gasping for air because of their grueling schedule. Were talking about a two week stretch of weird hours, travel, and physically taxing activites for some of the most fine tuned athletes on the planet. I think they will survive. But, if we end up losing… We can blame it on the ” grind” and our guys being tired.
With AROD ailing and aging I’m still wondering if the Yankees secretly covet Prince fielder. These clips from the NY Daily News earlier this year intrigue me:
Fielder said he learned from the way Sabathia handled his impending free agency during his three months with Brewers in 2008, recalling how the big lefty pitched on three days’ rest late in the season to push the ballclub to the playoffs.
“He was almost a little too unselfish,” Fielder said, chuckling. “But I thought it was awesome. To see him do that for a team he was on for only three months, I think I can give my all for a team I’ve been with for six years.”…
Fielder smiled at the mention of the short right-field porch here, but he wouldn’t go near any talk of potential landing spots for next season, though he did leave open the possibility that he could be happy as just a DH.
“I’m not ruling anything out,” he said
But, your failing to realize they work 20 hours a week for 6 months.
—————————————————————
Working out,watching game tape,getting treatments,pre game and post game stuff doesn’t count as “working”?. I know actual people who have full time jobs that do less then 20 hours a week of actual work.
Back when I lived in Hackettstown, NJ, I used to go up to Augusta, NJ, where the Cardinals had a NY/Penn league team. These kids, some of whom I got to know a little bit over a soda at the car hop diner across from the park (I don’t think any of them were old enough to buy a beer), lived with “host families” in the surrounding area, and made something like $800 per month in short season ball. A few (very few) made it, but most didn’t. That’s where they start. If you can go from there to the bigs, more power and money to you.
Still no Alex
New Post w/lineup
Why trade Hughes when his trade value is low? Now would be a great time to trade Ian Kennedy. His value has never been higher. Oh, wait…
It is 8 months, 9 if you get to the post season.
It is also physical work – the better the athlete, usually the more intense the training. There is game prep which is mental. There is public relations stuff that usually goes along with it. There is the travel. The Yankees I think had one home stand this season that was of any real length.
They work strange hours and don’t get to spend time with family during milestone events (in fact, they get criticized if they take off more than one game when they have a birth in their family – I’ve seen it here).
Yes, they have 2-4 months to make up for those missed events that most of us don’t get no matter how hard we work.
But the fact that they get perks that some of us will never know for money none of us will never see, doesn’t make their job any less hard nor less of a grind especially as the season comes to an end. Most are playing banged up, some are playing just short of full-out injury.
And frankly, most don’t complain. I don’t consider an acknowledgment of the grind complaining, necessarily. It’s simply a statement of fact. Most will say there’s nothing on earth they’d rather do and the grind is worth it, I’d bet.
It sure is better than many blue color jobs or even many white color jobs. But the grass is always greener on the other side. The pay is amazing once you reach a certain level, the opportunities that can come your way are also pretty good. If they make it, and stay, and get those million dollar pay checks, the accoutrement to their lives are enviable, indeed. But they do work for it.
Also, is it their fault that entertainment/sports jobs are among the highest paying in the world? People are willing to foot the bill for people to entertain them during their leisure, and apparently on some level, society certainly puts a high value on someone having the talent that can make them enjoy their time off from their dreary jobs with no benefits, and little salary.
BTW
Bautista hit .260 last season…
Granderson is obviously a centerpiece player for the Yanks over the next 3-5yrs if his production stays in this range as 40+HR/30 steal CF’ers are few and far between in the game today.
The next step for Curtis in his development as a hitter is going to be improve his contact rate and cutdown on the K’s obviously and I’m sure he’ll huddle up with KLong in Dec. and look to address this issue.