Second guessing Joe Girardi
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Oct 13, 2011 
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A baseball manager is an easy target. When his moves work, it’s easy to give credit to the players who made it work. When his moves don’t work, it’s easy to blame the decision and assume that a different choice would have led to a better result.
Is Derek Jeter’s strong second half a credit to Jeter, or a credit to Joe Girardi for sticking with him in the leadoff spot?
Is the Yankees division series loss because key hitters didn’t produce in key spots, or because Girardi didn’t pick the right hitters for those situations? Would anything have changed if Jesus Montero were given an at-bat in Game 5?
These are three of Girardi’s most questionable moves this year. Are the results that followed Girardi’s fault?
The six-man rotation
Probably the most questionable decision of the regular season, mostly because it wasn’t a decision at all. It was a non-decision.
Given six viable starting pitchers at the end of July, the Yankees chose to keep all of them. There was constant talk of trimming to a five-man, but Ivan Nova pitched too well to be optioned, Phil Hughes showed signs of improvement, and Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon had workloads that were cause for concern.
The six-man might have kept Garcia effective, but it might also have limited CC Sabathai, who had a bad second half – by his standards – and is well known for his preference to stay on turn (for him, short rest seems preferable to extra rest).
The division series lineup
Let’s start this with my own admission that I happen to agree with Girardi on this point: Whatever postseason numbers suggest, I think it makes more sense to choose a lineup based on regular season results. The larger sample size gives a better indication of what a player’s capable of doing. To me, shaking up the lineup for Game 5, immediately after the team scored 10 runs in Game 4, would have been second guessed more than sticking with the regular batting order.
That said, Girardi’s lineup clearly didn’t work. The heart of the order started slow and stayed that way. Russell Martin had a bad series and was allowed to hit for himself in a big spot in the finale.
Oddly enough, the Girardi lineup decision that had me most puzzled in the division series was the decision to pinch hit Eric Chavez for Brett Gardner strictly because Girardi was hoping for a home run. At this point, I’m just not sure Chavez is legitimately a bigger home run threat than Gardner, and I think Gardner had a better chance of either driving a double to the gap or at least rolling the lineup over to the top of the order.
The significance of Robinson Cano
From beginning to end, last season was a fairly significant proof that Robinson Cano had developed into the Yankees best all-around hitter. He was an MVP candidate and a more dangerous hitter, despite the fact he was protecting Alex Rodriguez (not the other way around).
Unconvinced by one season – fair enough – Girardi kept his third, fourth and fifth hitters unchanged out of spring training, giving Rodriguez and Mark Teixeira well-earned time to reassert themselves. But that never happened. Rodriguez got off to a strong start, then got hurt. Teixeira hit for power, but never his for his usual average, especially not against right-handers.
It wasn’t until the last series of the season, when he had two full seasons of overwhelming evidence, that Girardi finally made the switch and moved Cano up to the No. 3 spot in the order, dropping Teixeira’s all-or-nothing bat into the fifth hole. As I said several times when the Yankees leadoff spot was being debated, I’m in the camp that does not believe the exact order of a lineup makes much of a difference, but the hesitance to move Cano spoke to a greater issue of Girardi’s slow-to-change approach.
Associated Press photos
The 6 man rotation woukdnt have been bad it they had just kept CC on regular rest…..shuffle the other guys but keep your ace on schedule. The Yanks didn’t do that and it hurt them IMO.
The most questionable decision Joe made for me was by far pitching Ayala in Game 2. He shouldn’t have been anywhere near the mound unless the game was a foregone conclusion…..it wasn’t and that cost them Game 2. Their pen was rested and there was no reason to go to your worst pitcher there.
The lack if pinch hitting in Game 5 also can be questioned……but they limited Montero’s role and impact long before Game 5 when they refused to let him catch and platooned him against RHP
One of LoHud’s favorite activities: second guessing Joe Girardi.
Girardi said about Montero- “he’s only 21 years old” and he would be taking a “personal interest” in his catching development.
You let his bat continue to develop at DH while he works on his catching and saves the FT wear and tear catching takes on a body. What is the rush? He’s only 21.
A large sample size gives an indication of what a player is capable of… when given a long enough period of time to work with.
Unfortunately, as we seem to find out year after year, it is NOT an indication of what a player is capable of in a short playoff series against elevated talent.
blake October 13th, 2011 at 11:54 am
The 6 man rotation woukdnt have been bad it they had just kept CC on regular rest?..shuffle the other guys but keep your ace on schedule. The Yanks didn?t do that and it hurt them IMO.
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agreed
Soriano and Ayala pitched too much. Mariano and Robertson too little.
Have to remember also about Napoli that the Angels traded him as a throw in to take on the debacle that is the Vernon Wells contract…..unreal
The lineup was obvious. All righties pitching. We saw gardner go thru hot streaks during the season. He had big hits. Offense needed a jump start. Was there any reason not to hit this guy leadoff, bump Grandy down to Swisher’s spot and move Swisher down in the lineup? You had to do something. Playoffs, Leyland made some key moves in the lineup knowing his guys and who would succedd in spots. Joe G managed like we had weeks left in the season, waiting for guys to come around. Game 4 and 5, backs against the wall, you can’t wait for a guy to break out of it. And it cost us.
I only want Montero to catch some for the next 5 years or so…….then he can get a 1B mitt and concentrate on mashing. I don’t want him wearing down behind the plate……Posada is the exception…..most guys can’t catch fulltime and continue to hit.
You let his bat continue to develop at DH while he works on his catching and saves the FT wear and tear catching takes on a body. What is the rush? He?s only 21.
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What does age have to do with anything? Montero’s bat is ready right now
It never second guessed Girardi, I was worried about him not mixing up the lineup well in advance of his move haha.
Next year, which he hinted out, this lineup needs to be looked at. Jeter cannot leadoff, it’s time Gardner is the full time leadoff regardless if he struggles. Cano has to bat third. I am not sold Grandy is a #2 hitter, but no where else to place him so I guess Jeter is #2 and hope he isn’t a dp machine.
There’s not rush, but his being “only 21″ also doesn’t take into account that his bat has arrived. He’s a more mature, complete, and better hitter than most of the people in the lineup.
What would be smart for them to do is ease him in behind the plate, but get him enough consistent time back there that they can load up the lineup when they need to by putting another bat at DH and have Montero catch.
I think you don’t want to wear out his knees and back, shoulder, etc., by not being judicious with him, but he needs to get enough time there to learn the staff, progress at the position, and rightly get ALL ABs in NL parks if we get to the WS.
Who cares if his bat is ready now, it’s going to get used anyway. His glove isn’t, and he will have a full season as a PT catcher to work on it.
“You let his bat continue to develop at DH while he works on his catching and saves the FT wear and tear catching takes on a body. What is the rush? He?s only 21.”
That’s fine for next year…..the issue was winning a playoff gaame
“What does age have to do with anything? Montero’s bat is ready right now”
Which is why I said you let him DH now while he works on his catching with the multitude of catchers with the big team.
I agree Ayala pitched too much; thought Soriano was in just the right amount except for the one pitch. Wish Robertson pitched that 9th inning in NY instead of Ayala. I can’t question the use of Mariano.
I agree with Chad that pinch-hitting for Gardner with Chavez was a head scratcher, since Gardner was one of the few bright spots in the lineup.
I do not believe Girardi had to change his lineup, but I do think he could have pinch hit for Swisher and/or Martin in Game 5. There’s really no one in the regular lineup who shouldn’t have started any of the games. I don’t know if moving Posada up in the lineup would have made much difference, but it possibly would not have hurt.
Girardi addressed the reason he waited so long to make the switch to Cano at #3 and Tex at #5; he said on a couple of occasions that he had been thinking about doing it for a while but it didn’t make sense to do until until ARod was back (and I’m assuming he meant back and with a few at-bats under his belt?).
Anyway, in his last press conference, Girardi seemed very open to lineup reorganization next season. He’s always more open to doing this between seasons rather than in-season.
I didn’t like the 6-man, but unless they were going to give up on AJ altogether, and could be sure AJ wouldn’t have to be relied upon next season, they were in a sort of bind. Ironic that the guy who has a history of injury has been one of the most dependable pitchers in terms of health, isn’t it? I certainly don’t wish injury on any player, but you have to admit, if AJ had developed a blister, it would have made life easier.
He’s a more mature, complete, and better hitter than most of the people in the lineup.
This is just flat out not true. He has now had two successful HALF-seasons in AAA… and hit well in the majors with his limited exposure to pitchers with no video on him.
If it takes him until the all-star break to get his bat going every season, he still has lots of work to do.
He COULD be one of the better hitters in the lineup, but to say he already is isn’t being fair.
blake – seriously, it’s time to get over the fact that montero had no place in the lineup this postseason.
It is easy to 2nd guess when you don’t see the hoped for results. My 2nd guess would have been to put Jones in over Swish, since Swish clearly got away from his usual game plan of working counts.
OTOH, Ron Washington has stayed w/ Michael Young and his awful post season .188 BA, and he came thru yesterday w/ an important RBI.
How does anyone know Montero’s glove isn’t ready considering the Yankees never gave him a real shot behind the plate?
upstate kate October 13th, 2011 at 11:52 am
J Alfred
Girardi has also waxed poetic about Montero. I fully expect Montero to be the DH/BUC next year. I fully expect that Montero is a big part of the team going forward, and nothing Girardi has said makes me think otherwise.
Do I think Montero will ever be the FT catcher? I have no clue. Seeing what has transpired w/ Joe Mauer makes me wish that he doesn’t. That bat is too good to waste.
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Kate, the timing of his non sequitur praise for Martin was awkward & I think also, strategic and telling. I hope they are just taking their time with Montero, but I see red flags and remain wary. Girardi is besotted with Russell Martin, I don’t think there’s any doubt about that, at least not in my mind. & because of that, I wonder about his judgment on the best way to use him going forward. Cashman’s comparison of Martin with Munson makes me leery, also. For example, wishing his bat was like Munson’s will not make it so.
LGY – Austin Romine being called up to catch told me everything I needed to know about where they think Montero’s glove is at.
J Alfred -
That’s exactly what it sounds like they are going to do with Montero – get his bat in as much as possible, certainly as DH (and perhaps they ask him to learn 1B in winter ball?) and he will be BUC, being eased into the position.
I do think that catching is a singularly difficult position on a baseball team, physically and mentally. I don’t have objection to them moving at a slower pace with Montero in terms of catching.
blake –seriously, it’s time to get over the fact that montero had no place in the lineup this postseason.
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Just like he had no place on the big league team all season because he “couldn’t hit AAA pitching”
“blake – seriously, it’s time to get over the fact that montero had no place in the lineup this postseason.”
Yea it is because the season is over…..but that doesn’t mean it was the right choice. Again I don’t question so much the decision making in the postseason as the decision making in September to limit his role by not letting him catch……
Girardi really looks like Moe from the 3 Stooges in that picture above.
But they know Russell Martin is short-term. I don’t see why liking Martin behind the plate necessarily is a bad thing regarding Montero. I think they may just be very comfortable having Martin be the one who helps to break in Montero.
Well I agree pitchers will find holes in Montero’s swing, but there is no denying that when thrown offspeed pitches as well as other junk, he didn’t swing at too many bad pitches and look outside the zone. He also hits the ball hard whenever he makes contact, even outs. He has great bat speed and hits the ball to all fields. Cano had similar talents but never the discipline to lay off pitches or stay in the zone. So on first impressions he has looked as polished a hitter as we have seen come thru here. I am not saying he should bat cleanup next year, but batting 7th in this lineup? He should be at the minimum solid and less pressure at the backend allowing him to develop gradually.
LGY –Austin Romine being called up to catch told me everything I needed to know about where they think Montero’s glove is at.
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How do you know they are right?
“LGY – Austin Romine being called up to catch told me everything I needed to know about where they think Montero’s glove is at.”
Mathis catching told me everything I need to know about where they thought Napoli’s glove was at.
If Montero was ready to step behind the play in any important role (especially in a PENNANT CHASE) then they wouldn’t have called up their AA catcher to play instead. They clearly had no intention of Montero getting behind the plate in the postseason. Who can blame them? You want a pitcher that has never caught your staff before handling a postseason game? Please.
He COULD be one of the better hitters in the lineup, but to say he already is isn’t being fair.
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ID, I couldn’t disagree more that his bat needs future oriented speculative qualification. I’ve seen him hit at Futures, Double A, and here. You may need more convincing, I don’t.
LGY – I don’t presume to know better than them, like you do.
Prufrock – When he hits in April-June, let me know.
Mathis catching told me everything I need to know about where they thought Napoli’s glove was at.
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Nice
Montero doesn’t have any holes on his swing…..if he swings at strikes and doesn’t chase junk he’s going to be tough to pitch to. That was clearly the report on him….try to get him to chase slop
blake – Mathis/Napoli has nothing to do with Montero’s situation. At all.
Martin should be behind the plate working Montero in at catcher a few times a week. He’s a perfect guy to learn from and allows Arod to stay fresh DHing and letting nunez get in the lineup as well. All a no brainer as far as I am concerned.
Now this would be an interesting interview.
YESNetwork Legendary actor @WilliamShatner joins Michael Kay on CenterStage. (PREVIEW VIDEO): http://bit.ly/ocgC6t
How do you know they are right?
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Because Mike Francessa says so
I can’t know better than the team because Girardi would not even give him a chance.
When Tex hits April-June. Some guys start hot and some don’t. Also the disappoiuntment of not making the team when given a prime chance certainly didn’t help his start I am sure.
So they’re supposed to receive praise for the wisdom of not putting a kid behind the plate that didn’t know the staff, rather than the criticism they deserve for not bringing him up earlier to get familiar enough to give them the option of using him to pinch hit in their hour of most need?
Montero has Back Up QB syndrome- The promise of the one who has yet to fail will always look better than the one who has failed.
I wish Jesus a long and prosperous career but highly doubt he can live up to the expectations some of you have set for him because odds are he will fail at least 65% of the time over the long haul.
Irreverent Discourse October 13th, 2011 at 12:14 pm
Prufrock – When he hits in April-June, let me know.
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You should remain skeptical if you haven’t had anything confirmed for you.
Well we have to face some facts. Jorge until the playoffs was a debacle. And being loyal to our aging guys and worrying about what they might think will continue to be a problem. The Sox throw guys out the door etc, but they have no quams cutting ties. Our other extreme is we are too loyal handing out big money and plugging guys in in key spots based on history not present reality.
pat-totally agree @12:18
Backup QB syndrome isn’t applicable at all, since the whole point of it is that the backup’s promise of being “better” is based on an emotional, fickle whim, but he really doesn’t have the talent of the starter.
Russell Martin is not a good hitter. Montero is already getting IBB’d by managers, because teams don’t want to pitch to him.
I, for one, will accept a 65% failure rate at the plate for Montero. That equals ROY, All-Star and MVP.
I would like to see Montero assigned to winter ball so that he can work out at a couple of other positions. If the team’s not sold on him behind the plate they have to pull a Miggy Cabrera with him and figure out where they think he can play to get his bat in the lineup. The logical choice right now would be Right Field.
LGY – You have the choice of believe that he wasn’t given a chance for a reason, or spite. You have chosen the latter, apparently.
“blake – Mathis/Napoli has nothing to do with Montero’s situation. At all.”
Yea it kinda does.
This guy isn’t Frank Cervelli.
He’s merely one of the most heralded hitting prospects in baseball, who has put up this line in the majors already: 328 .406 .590 .996.
He hits the ball to all fiellds, and has a laughable amount of pop in his bat to the opposite field. Wait until he starts pulling pitches into the LF seats.
You guys are really too much, even the Yankees don’t disrespect his obvious talent like some here. Do you guys just not recognize a great hitter when you see one??
Enough with the second guessing. It is what it is. I personally think Girardi saved game 5 and gave them a chance with his BP management.
I just logged on and saw the trade proposal in the previous entry. I needed two basins to catch all of my barfing. That has to be one of the worst ideas I have seen from anyone in a long time. Sorry, Chad. If you were meant to be provocative, you were.
I’m still reveling in the Red Sox collapse. Ortiz wants the Yankees (he’ll get Anaheim). Papelbon could go to the Mets, Nationals, or Phillies (if they cut Madson loose). JD Drew and Scutaro are gone. The minor league cupboard is bare. Ellsbury is only a one year rental who nobody really is going to give a lot for. Now the big talk is what they will get for their GM? How about a gorilla suit and some bananas?
As they say at Mc Donalds–I’m lovin it!
pat & Erin -
I agree as well @12:18.
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Montero was impressive, no doubt. Loved how he looked most at-bats. Can’t wait for him to start next season with the big club.
But I saw no need to rush him in. I don’t think he would have made the difference. He was not needed behind the plate – and you cannot KNOW with certainty that he or anyone else would have gotten a hit in game 5 situations. The list of people who did not come through for the Yankees with RISP in the games that they lost spans the lineup. Literally, from Jeter to Gardner.
There was no need to have him catch more in September because Martin was catching every playoff game, and Montero was going to catch only if absolutely necessary. THey must have been okay with that, because they did not carry Romine on the ALDS roster.
Also, Girardi said if there were lefthanders being faced it would have been a drastically different lineup, which suggests to me Montero would have been the DH in those games against lefties, because that’s pretty drastic.
Spite?
blake – No, it’s kinda doesn’t. Napoli is a bad catcher. Scoscia refuses to play a bad defensive catcher. Napoli was not hitting last year and got traded away. Now he’s hitting, he’s still a bad catcher. Just because Ron Washington accepts that and Scoscia doesn’t has no correlation to Montero not being ready for major league catching duties yet.
LGY – Spite or incompetence? Take your pick, it’s still wrong.
of course, lightning can strike (a la 2009) and anything COULD happen, but based on the postseason track records of Tex/A-Rod/Swish, along with Martin’s Wil Nieves-like bat, does anyone honestly forsee a different outcome in NEXT year’s playoff’s?
The percentages tell us a resounding NO, until the roster (or at least the lineup) turns over.
I agreed with Girardi, except two ABs:
-would NOT have pulled Gardner for Chavez
-would have PH Montero for Martin in game 5 bases loaded (once we were down 2 runs, needed to focus on the one offensive upgrade available)
Speaking of Montero, subbing him for Martin late in games would have likely won one or two. But imagine putting him in and not scoring?
A rookie catcher, in a deciding playoff game, with huge amounts of Yankee pressure to win, not really knowing the pitchers?
Imagine a passed ball from Ayala in the top of the 12th in game 5 allowing a run to score (after Mo was already used for two innings).
We would have been screaming for Girardi’s head.
Prufrock – Or you call him up early, he clearly can’t catch yet and get sent back down. Now you blew an option, dropped someone from the 40-man and don’t even have his bat at the end of the year. All because of your impatience.
Villa Nova-Ya October 13th, 2011 at 12:11 pm
J Alfred -
That’s exactly what it sounds like they are going to do with Montero – get his bat in as much as possible, certainly as DH (and perhaps they ask him to learn 1B in winter ball?) and he will be BUC, being eased into the position.
I do think that catching is a singularly difficult position on a baseball team, physically and mentally. I don’t have objection to them moving at a slower pace with Montero in terms of catching.
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I have no objection with a pace that will also prepare him enough to make the manager comfortable enough to actually use him when it matters most. This is what I am dubious about. We won’t find out until next season, if he isn’t moved. I am just not liking the vibe I get from Girardi, on top of his brazen refusal to take advantage of better bats to try and get out of Thursday night with a win. That disregard for what a better hitter potentially can do does not inspire confidence.
Speaking of Montero, subbing him for Martin late in games would have likely won one or two. But imagine putting him in and not scoring?
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Imagine if Martin got hurt during one of the games
Can Verlander throw 100 mph on the 150th pitch?
We may find out today because Leyland has made Benoit and Valverde unavailable for todays game.
BryanHoch Leyland says he wants to get through this game with Justin Verlander and Phil Coke. #tigers #alcs
Phil Coke, savior??
You guys are really too much, even the Yankees don?t disrespect his obvious talent like some here. Do you guys just not recognize a great hitter when you see one??
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I think it has more to do with some people here who refuse to knock the Yankees in any way shape or form
Irreverent Discourse October 13th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
Prufrock – Or you call him up early, he clearly can’t catch yet and get sent back down. Now you blew an option, dropped someone from the 40-man and don’t even have his bat at the end of the year. All because of your impatience.
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Impatience is your word to demean a reasonable position. They could have brought him up with enough AAA time and still enough in front of him to get worked into the catching mix.
Am I impatient if I want Montero to come off the bench with the bases loaded in a fifth and final ALDS game?? Impatient to what? Have a better chance to win? If I lose, I’m going home. Does Montero give me a better chance, there, than Nick Swisher? If you disagree that he does, then we have a fundamental disagreement on what kind of a hitter Swisher is in that situation versus what kind of problems Montero poses for a pitcher in that spot.
That would have to be where the disagreement lies. Which would not make this about some kind of impetuousness, non-thinking need of mine to see Montero.
A few things on the Napoli situation as it pertains to Montero.
Scoscia was a tremendous defensive catcher in his own right – thus he was more likely to value the defense Mathis offered than the offense from Napoli behind the plate. Given that, and the fact that he had (at the time of the trade) a lot of DH options and offense they dealt him. Now, if Scoscia had known then that Mathis would be terrible in a full season of work, that a combination of injuries and ineffectiveness would limit Bobby Wilson to only 57 games and that Kendry Morales would have to miss the season, would have have pushed for the trade? Probably not. And there’s no way to spin it, dealing anything for Vernon Wells is a bad deal.
Ron Washington on the other hand was a coach in Oakland before getting the Texas job. As we know, the philosophy in Oakland under Beane is that defense isn’t as high on the priority scale so he (Washington) looked at his roster purely from a standpoint of putting the best offensive team on the field each day and hope that the offense would make up for any runs the defense allowed.
Now we flash to the Yankees – Girardi certainly falls more under the Scoscia category than he does Ron Washington’s. As a former light hitting, defensively solid catcher, he’s going to value those traits higher than some fans may want him to.
Girardi looks at his lineup and I’m sure he sees enough offense to say to himself, “if Martin’s struggling, we can carry him.” and he’s not totally wrong on that. What didn’t help Montero’s situation was that he wasn’t terribly impressive this spring, nor did he come out and prove that he was just too darn good for AAA. You want to say he was bored – ok – that’s fine, but that could also show a lack of maturity. Either way, when taken as a whole, it gave Girardi enough ground to say “I’m going to stick with Russ Martin.”
It’s just different philosophies.
@DKnobler: Angels thought Napoli could hit, couldn’t catch. They were half right. The Rangers knew better. http://t.co/nUNX7Dw6
“Just because Ron Washington accepts that and Scoscia doesn’t has no correlation to Montero not being ready for major league catching duties yet.”
One manager is winning and one isn’t. The point is that they need to give the kid a chance and I think they will…..at least to catch for a couple of years……and had they given him a chance this year then maybe they would have felt comfortable hitting him for Martin late in one of those games.
“A rookie catcher, in a deciding playoff game, with huge amounts of Yankee pressure to win, not really knowing the pitchers?”
The pressure would still be there……but him not knowing the pitchers is the Yankees own fault.
And here’s a heretical thing to say: Everyone says CC “for sure” would have won game 1A because it looked like he had killer stuff and it looked like Verlander was vulnerable.
How about this: CC gave up a first inning HR to Young.
Verlander gave the run right back in the bottom of the first, but teh Yankees looked primed to get much more than one run in that inning and did not.
Verlander gets stronger as he goes along. No guarantee that the Yankees score any additional runs off him. No guarantee CC doesn’t give up more runs.
I say, it’s easy to say CC and the Yankees would have prevailed, I guess, but game was tied at the rain out. And Verlander was let off the hook early.
In their second match-up, the Yankees give CC a 2-run lead in the first that he could not hold. And it wasn’t until the 7th that Yankees were able to score again. They tie it up, and Soriano gives it right back.
There is a tendency to look at one inning in this series, 7th inning, Game 5. But the series loss was a total team effort.
I’m sorry – I meant game 1 not 1A.
Chip – that was a nice discussion.
Leyland threw a lot of eggs into the basket last night……he went all out to win last night knowing he had Verlander going today and it didn’t work out.
But I saw no need to rush him in. I don’t think he would have made the difference. He was not needed behind the plate – and you cannot KNOW with certainty that he or anyone else would have gotten a hit in game 5 situations.
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Villa, the crux of your position, then, is you don’t think Montero would have made a difference. You think Swisher would have had an even or better shot to get the game tied. I can accept that that’s your take on the two hitters. That there is really no difference between them.
Villa Nova-Ya – i had the exact same thought about that Game 3. CC let them back in, and then that HR given up by Soriano.
It was a team effort.
Still can’t believe they lost three games.
Villa Nova-actually you could classify Game 1 as Game 1A and Game 1B.
As we know, the philosophy in Oakland under Beane is that defense isn’t as high on the priority scale so he (Washington) looked at his roster purely from a standpoint of putting the best offensive team on the field each day and hope that the offense would make up for any runs the defense allowed
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This is the philosophy under Beane based on what??
Blake
Are you thinking that if Montero was called up earlier he would have replaced Cervelli? I think he would have replaced Posada, and that is why (IMO of course) he was not called up earlier.
I really think the Yankees realize what a fabulous bat they have in Montero. He has been impressive in the short time we got to see him. The first time he faced Lester, even tho he didn’t get a hit (IIRC) he seemed very comfortable up there. However, there is no way I would have expected to see him PH in a game 5, series on the line. That would be a totally unfair position to put a kid that was a late season call up in. I would have put Jones in there.
LGY October 13th, 2011 at 12:43 pm
@DKnobler: Angels thought Napoli could hit, couldn’t catch. They were half right. The Rangers knew better. http://t.co/nUNX7Dw6
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It’s not that simple.
A) When the Rangers got Napoli it was with the idea of him being a part time DH/platoon partner at 1b. Remember, they gave a nice contract to Torrealba last winter to be their starting catcher.
B) The Angels had two other catchers who they wanted to play, were set at 1b and had too many DHs already. They didn’t have a place for Napoli at the time they traded him. Had the Angels known that Morales was going to miss the year I doubt they deal Napoli.
“Are you thinking that if Montero was called up earlier he would havene replaced Cervelli? I think he would have replaced Posada, and that is why (IMO of course) he was not called up earlier.”
Cervelli….if Martin got hurt then Cervy would have been just a phone call away for the next game.
Now, if Scoscia had known then that Mathis would be terrible in a full season of work, that a combination of injuries and ineffectiveness would limit Bobby Wilson to only 57 games and that Kendry Morales would have to miss the season, would have have pushed for the trade? Probably not. And there’s no way to spin it, dealing anything for Vernon Wells is a bad deal.
Ron Washington on the other hand was a coach in Oakland before getting the Texas job. As we know, the philosophy in Oakland under Beane is that defense isn’t as high on the priority scale so he (Washington) looked at his roster purely from a standpoint of putting the best offensive team on the field each day and hope that the offense would make up for any runs the defense allowed.
–
Lot wrong here. One, Mathis was already the 1A catcher before they traded Napoli. He did not suffer under any more work than he normally did. And he is bad at defense. Scoscia just likes the way he catches the ball, but he couldn’t possibly appreciate his errors, CS%, or PB/WP numbers. Its a silly bias against Napoli because Umpires complained that they couldnt see the pitch over Napoli’s fat, HR hitting head. They did not have a glut of DH guys going into 2011. They only got their primary DH by trading away Napoli and pushing Abreu to DH to field Vernon Wells. Terrible mismanagement there.
Two, Washington was the DEFENSE guy in Oakland and in his career, and is pretty defensively minded. Just because he was on a Billy Beane team doesn’t mean he is Billy Beane. Not to mention Billy Beane went after undervalued assets, the philosophy wasn’t screw defense. Notice how Beane has assembled a top flight defensive team with bad offense? Defense and speed became undervalued, so he acquired it.
I mean, spend like 2 seconds at wikipedia, Chip:
As infield coach Washington has been credited for developing much of the A’s young infield talent in the last decade, including six-time Gold Glover Eric Chavez, and former MVP and A’s shortstop Miguel Tejada. In 2004, Chavez expressed his appreciation by giving Washington one of his Gold Glove trophies, signed “Wash, not without you.”[2]
J Alfred -
In this series, I do not think Montero was the difference maker.
I think Montero is a great hitter and will continue to be. But I’d have been okay with Girardi pinch hitting Jones for Swisher or Martin. It did not have to be Montero. In fact, Jones, as a veteran with playoff experience, might have had more success. My issue with the situation was not pinch hitting at all, not the particular pinch hitter used.
If they pinch-hit for Martin, I think Montero would have been fine behind the plate for 2, 3 inning till they won, or till the end of the game.
And what I am saying is there was no guarantee that ANY pinch hitter would have gotten the job done. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. You can’t make the leap that if Girardi pinch hits, they win the game. What you can say is, based on prior production, based on where they are in the game and in the season, it sure wouldn’t have hurt to pinch hit in that situation, to take a different approach.
B) The Angels had two other catchers who they wanted to play, were set at 1b and had too many DHs already. They didn’t have a place for Napoli at the time they traded him. Had the Angels known that Morales was going to miss the year I doubt they deal Napoli.
——
Nonsense. Mathis has been one of if not the worst players in baseball his entire career.
Napoli was run out of town and never given a chance because Scoscia greatly overvalued Mathis and severely undervalued Napoli.
That McClelland/Girardi picture definitely needs a caption.
The Angels had two other catchers who they wanted to play, were set at 1b and had too many DHs already. They didn’t have a place for Napoli at the time they traded him.
–
Their desire to play catchers over Napoli doesn’t exonerate them of their idiotic move to trade him. Their 1B situation was NOT locked up because even in the offseason they should have had a handle on Morales’ injury situation. They did not have too many DHs. Matsui was gone, who else was going to DH? Their primary DH was pushed into the spot due to acquiring Vernon Wells. They had plenty of room for Napoli but Scoscia is a twit.
Going into the 2011 offseason, the Angels had 0 DHs.
“That McClelland/Girardi picture definitely needs a caption.”
“Pick a finger”
Angels catchers hit .192 .252 .302 .555 in 2011, they effed up bad.
Many Angels fans complained during Napoli’s entire tenure with the team that he wasn’t getting enough PT and proper opportunity behind the plate.
“Pick a finger”
Done in one.
But the pitchers love Mathis and Scoscia knows catching!!
Villa, the complaint is, he had a few opportunities to use his very deep bench in Game 5, and did not pull the trigger.
Montero was the most talented option on that bench.
You keep saying there’s no guarantee: about Montero coming through, there, about C pitching a gem…isn’t that kind of a given? Isn’t that a little beneath you to use that as a debating point??
We don’t “know” the result; the point is, what gives you the highest probability for success?? What, I don’t realize what you obviously do? That they might fail? C’mon. That’s not an honorable way to debate, & I think you know that. It also implies I’m just a spoiled fan who can’t accept the loss, and I just “know” that one spot would have assured victory. Except, that’s not my position and it isn’t even fair to strawman me into that position. He had several opportunities to upgrade, and chose not to.
If I was so blind to not see that failure was a possibility, I would have complained about pinch hitting Jones in Game 2. Not only didn’t I complain, I still think that was a good move, and that Jones hit an opposite field shot that Kelly ran down. If Ordonez was still in there, we would have had a much better shot at being alive right now.
So, I don’t second guess because I idiotically assume success, but because I don’t think the manager pushed what to me were obvious buttons to try and win.
“That McClelland/Girardi picture definitely needs a caption.”
“Pick a finger”
**
How about “read between the lines?” (Cringe)
the manager did NOT push
Just because Montero may not be deemed “ready” to catch, doesn’t conflate into that his bat isn’t ready. Or Girardi needed to do was pinch hit Montero in a few critical situations. Everybody and their grandmother knows Montero’s bat plays better than Swisher’s or Martin’s in those critical Game 5 AB’s.
Heidi Watney’s twitter recently blowing up over accusations of her hooking up with Jason Varitek while he was married.
Isn’t that old old news.
*All* Girardi needed to do…
Um, just about to have lunch. Too bad I didn’t leave before seeing a blurb on Jason Varitek’s sex life.
Wow. What an article. If the Sox want to trade Lester and Ellsbury to the Yankees straight up for AJ Burnett, it gets my thumbs up.
http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....?page=full
“Nonsense. Mathis has been one of if not the worst players in baseball his entire career.”
Except when he plays the Ya kees for some incredibly annoying reason.
Ugh. I can still see those shots into LC gap over the OFers’ heads off the bat of the challenged Mathis. We overcame him, though (2009).
Sure, Unknown, I’ll do that
. Put Ells in RF.
Good one, all.
We’d still have no arms in the OF, though
.
Good day.
pat October 13th, 2011 at 12:18 pm
Montero has Back Up QB syndrome- The promise of the one who has yet to fail will always look better than the one who has failed.
I wish Jesus a long and prosperous career but highly doubt he can live up to the expectations some of you have set for him because odds are he will fail at least 65% of the time over the long haul.
Good post. If Montero had been playing from Game One, we would have won the ALDS. If Montero plays every game next season, we will undoubtedly win the World Series. Way too much expectation is being placed on the shoulders of a young man who the Yankees clearly have serious doubts about becoming their everyday catcher. The bottom line is this: If A-Rod, Tex and Swish had played anywhere near the back of their baseball cards in the play-offs then we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
My concern wasn’t the lineup per SE but the lack of using pinch hitters in certain situations. I think there was only one pinch hit? Chavez for Gardner, and that was a poor move at the time.
J Alfred -
I second guessed Girardi’s non-move in game 5 as well. I second guessed Chavez. I second guessed Ayala (my initial reaction was “where’s DRob?”) There was a lot of room to second guess.
I think our difference really boils down to I wouldn’t have insisted on the PH in Game 5 being Montero; I would have been okay with Jones. Point being, Girardi had tools on his bench he chose not to use with the game and the season on the line.
But it doesn’t change the reality that we don’t know what might have happened, whether that be CC pitching that gem in Game 1 or “name your PH” hitting for Swisher and/or Martin in Game 5. Pinch hitting may have changed the outcome of that game, but we can never know for sure. I wish Girardi had done something, and then we’d know. We do agree on that, right?
And my larger point was there are too many situations to look at to hinge the results of the ALDS on that one inning. Close situations, where one hit, or a sac fly or other productive out, or a good pitch makes a difference (though really, the pitching was good enough). Heck, if the rain could have held off in Game 2 for another half hour!
I think you have such a passion for Montero and it is rooted in having witnessed him play in person through his minor league career and I think you are genuinely worried that the Yankees don’t see it the same way you do. I certainly didn’t mean to imply you are a spoiled fan and I apologize if you took that meaning from me.
DRob30 People watching at the mall is one of my favorite ways to kill time while @ERob3 shops.
A blistering Red Sox rip job from the SF Chronicle:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....1LGVFJ.DTL
LGY October 13th, 2011 at 12:58 pm
B) The Angels had two other catchers who they wanted to play, were set at 1b and had too many DHs already. They didn’t have a place for Napoli at the time they traded him. Had the Angels known that Morales was going to miss the year I doubt they deal Napoli.
——
Nonsense. Mathis has been one of if not the worst players in baseball his entire career.
Napoli was run out of town and never given a chance because Scoscia greatly overvalued Mathis and severely undervalued Napoli.
—————–
Napoli spent 5 years in LA – he was given plenty of a chance.
Again, I don’t think dealing him (especially for Vernon Wells) was the right move. But I understood it based on their roster configuration.
lol @ TWatney
Jerkface -
Just because the A’s don’t value defense highly doesn’t mean they don’t value it at all. Of course they’re going to have a defensive coach like Ron Washington, but the point is that Washington came from a place where he had seen teams succeed without putting an abundance of value on the defensive part of the game.
Fans just murdering Milkshake Ortiz over his comments about not minding playing for the Yankees is hilarious.
Worship one day and crucify the next. The life of a fan.
LGY October 13th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
Many Angels fans complained during Napoli’s entire tenure with the team that he wasn’t getting enough PT and proper opportunity behind the plate.
—————
Do you really want your manager or general manager making their decisions based on what the fans want?
Scoscia’s not wrong about Napoli being a bad defensive catcher and his philosophy was that he’s got enough offense at other spots in the field, he can trade offense for defense behind the plate.
Varitek and Heidi Watney? Wow, I like his taste (although he was married at the time so ethically not a good thing).
I saw this headline and I just kind of figured that it was a thread for comments.
but the point is that Washington came from a place where he had seen teams succeed without putting an abundance of value on the defensive part of the game.
–
So what? That doesn’t mean Washington doesn’t value the defensive part of the game, as is obvious by his entire career that he does value defense. And the Rangers worked with Napoli instead of pooping on him and he was pretty good behind the plate this year. And are you really sure you know what Scoscia’s philosophy is?
No need for Ortiz. He is what he is when he was. He’s in Stage Two whining and would not be a fit in the Yankee clubhouse except for comical reasons when his teammates would watch him chugging up the first base line like he was headed for the electric chair.
2012 will have DH options and none include Ortiz.
Scoscia was pretty wrong about Jeff Mathis being a good defensive catcher.
I glanced at that proposal on the last page, and said no way they’d give us Nicky for Swisher. Then I saw the name Montero in there. I guess Chad wanted to see what unanimity looks like.
The first picture in the post has 2 fingers 2 many.
It’s funny how Lester’s name got smeared. I mean it’s not really funny, but maybe if Lester wasn’t in on the fun and games he should have distanced himself more?
I haven’t seen a single person post expectations for Montero, so stop with that.
People know he is very talented and has a lot of potential. I think everyone knows he could still struggle. However, everyone saw how he hit when he got a chance at the end of the 2011 season, and not pinch hitting him late in the game for Martin was idiotic. I don’t think Girardi is an idiot overall, but he is way too conservative. And no, no one is saying that pinch hitting Montero would have guaranteed a win.
Jerkface October 13th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
but the point is that Washington came from a place where he had seen teams succeed without putting an abundance of value on the defensive part of the game.
–
So what? That doesn’t mean Washington doesn’t value the defensive part of the game, as is obvious by his entire career that he does value defense. And the Rangers worked with Napoli instead of pooping on him and he was pretty good behind the plate this year. And are you really sure you know what Scoscia’s philosophy is?
—————–
I didn’t say he doesn’t value defense. I said he doesn’t value it as highly. At somepoint you’re going to realize that there are levels right – that just because you like vanilla better than chocolate doesn’t mean you hate chocolate. Just because you value offense more than defense doesn’t mean you don’t value defense at all.
I give a lot of credit to Napoli for putting together a strong season and forcing his way into the everyday lineup – but the fact remains that when he was brought over he was looked at as a bench player. He changed that perception – much like Freddy Garcia did here.
I didn’t say he doesn’t value defense. I said he doesn’t value it as highly.
–
But you don’t know this and all evidence points to Wash valuing defense highly.
Jerkface October 13th, 2011 at 1:50 pm
I didn’t say he doesn’t value defense. I said he doesn’t value it as highly.
–
But you don’t know this and all evidence points to Wash valuing defense highly.
————-
Playing Nelson Cruz in RF and Mike Napoli behind the plate would argue against that.
Napoli plays in a bandbox now, of course his numbers are going to improve.
I do like that the Angels basically GM’ed their way out of the playoffs. Even though they were tantalizingly close to getting the WC and even the division at one point.
and for all the “Scoscia didn’t give Napoli a chance” stuff – Napoli got 369 at bats this year. With the Angels last year he got 453 and the year before he got 382.
Can you say “Team is OLD” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Playing Nelson Cruz in RF and Mike Napoli behind the plate would argue against that.
–
Napoli was better at holding runners this year than Martin. In the extra 300 innings Martin caught over Napoli he allowed 70 more SB and only caught an extra 28. While throwing 7 more errors.
And Cruz has been positive in the outfield for his entire career, has a cannon accurate arm, and is one of their best hitters.
Here is more defensive evidence: He plays Andrus, Hamilton, Young, Gendry, Beltre, Chavez and Kinsler. You’re so off base.
What is up fellas!!
Havnt watched one inning of this round. Still getting over getting ousted yet again by the Tigers.
What ive learned from this thread.
-Martin is not Munson but Will Nieves in Sheeps clothing.
-Napoli is Matt Nokes.
Everyones Jealous of Montero and he will take over Alex’s duties of meaningless homeruns
and non important rbis in early innings or blow outs. Proceeding to win the ROY with all that fluff.
Playing a very good defensive RF in RF means Washington doesn’t value defense?
Once upon a time, Hamilton would have been a good target, but is slowing down? Did you guys notice they switched him from CF to LF in that last inning last night?
m October 13th, 2011 at 1:51 pm
Napoli plays in a bandbox now, of course his numbers are going to improve.
I do like that the Angels basically GM’ed their way out of the playoffs. Even though they were tantalizingly close to getting the WC and even the division at one point.
—————
Eh, they made one short sighted trade that seriously back fired given their injury situation.
I think it was a terrible reaction to losing out on Carl Crawford and Reagins wishes he could have a mulligan on that.
The guy that Eric Chavez personally thanked for winning a million gold gloves doesnt value defense highly.
Whatever postseason numbers suggest, I think it makes more sense to choose a lineup based on regular season results. The larger sample size gives a better indication of what a player’s capable of doing. To me, shaking up the lineup for Game 5, immediately after the team scored 10 runs in Game 4, would have been second guessed more than sticking with the regular batting order.
————–
but girardi didn’t manage the pitching in game 5 based on a larger sample size. he managed them hitter to hitter. the lineup management was the complete opposite. there would be no tomorrow if there was a loss.
larussa made some pretty significant changes. leyland put the lefty at 3B after playing the OF all series and then batted him 2nd.
sorry but in a game 5, everything needs to be micromanaged – can’t just sit back and rely on the larger sample size.
posada should have no way in hell been batting behind swisher. there is absolutely no way that can be refuted.
and having martin bat up with a key situation that late in the game with a guy like montero on the bench was just painful.
if girardi has ZERO plans to use him to catch at all in this series, then they should’ve put romine on the roster too. poor management and foresight.
Did you guys notice they switched him from CF to LF in that last inning last night?
–
Hamilton should be in LF to begin with. He isnt very good in CF.
They may have been talking about catching? Or the fact that he got traded away?
The move was good for Texas, bad for the Angels. End of story. I for one was tired of hearing how perfect the Angels were.
Clearly, Girardi’s best moves this season were his overall handling of the bullpen and his ignoring the morons who were screaming for Jeter to be moved down in the lineup right before 3,000 hits..
NOBODY can deny he did an excellent job in those two scenarios…
Other than that, there’s a lot not to like, I thought CC in game 5 was a classic over-managing move and not getting Montero an at bat with the short porch in right was horrible…
with that said, i think giradi did a GREAT job all season. but he didn’t make the necessary offensive adjustments in the biggest game of the year.
If the 4-5-6 were hitting, then they win the series. Of course the problem is: A-Rod didn’t have his timing back, Teix continued his struggles from the left hand side & Swisher tenses up during the post season.
With this, it comes down to the issue stated above “….but the hesitance to move Cano spoke to a greater issue of Girardi’s slow-to-change approach.”
I have no problem PHing with Chavez because Chavez is good at getting a hit with RISP. BUT the problem is he PH for Gardner, who was hitting. And this comes down to the simple fact that Girardi didn’t want to PH for the guys who were struggling (4-5-6). So he chose the low man on the totem pole… Gardner.
I don’t think it’s that Girardi doesn’t have a feel for the game, as much as Girardi doesn’t want to ruffle feathers & hopes these guys get it done.
He could have moved Posada ahead of Teix, but he probably felt like Teix was already moved from the 3rd spot & didn’t want to move him further.
In the end, it’s about 4-5-6 not hitting well & Girardi’s reluctance to change things up & let the dice roll.
Here is more defensive evidence: He plays Andrus, Hamilton, Young, Gendry, Beltre, Chavez and Kinsler. You’re so off base.
————
of course he plays Andrus, Hamilton, Beltre, and Kinsler – they’re all stars both offensively and defensively.
The move was good for Texas, bad for the Angels. End of story. I for one was tired of hearing how perfect the Angels were.
–
The angels hold onto their prospects too long, suck at free agency, and stink at trades. Their best trade in the past 10 years fell into their lap because the diamondbacks got pressure from ownership.
I was talking more about the last couple of seasons, Chip.
But I love how they took on Wells. Once upon a time I suggested we take on Wells. But that was to pry Halladay out of Toronto’s stingy little hands.
of course he plays Andrus, Hamilton, Beltre, and Kinsler – they’re all stars both offensively and defensively.
–
Right so you using 2 bad examples probably wasn’t a good way to back up this ‘Ron Washington moneyball’ thesis you have going on.
I don’t know the exact numbers, but we had our opportunities. Just failed to take advantage of them. The infamous small army left on the bases again.
And certainly cannot be argued that Washington values defense LESS than Mike Scoscia, who willingly played Rivera, Wells, Hunter, and Abreu in his outfield. The latter 3 might have made a good defensive outfield in like… 2003.
Scoscia certainly overrates catcher defense, and then fails to see who is even worth putting at the position to maximize it.
Jerkface October 13th, 2011 at 1:59 pm
The move was good for Texas, bad for the Angels. End of story. I for one was tired of hearing how perfect the Angels were.
–
The angels hold onto their prospects too long, suck at free agency, and stink at trades. Their best trade in the past 10 years fell into their lap because the diamondbacks got pressure from ownership.
—————-
They held onto one prospect for too long: Brandon Wood.
Only one really bad free agent decision – Gary Matthews
Dan Haren trade wasn’t the only good one – they gave up nothing for Tex. The Napoli for Wells deal was attrocious.
Can’t argue with their player development though – which will probably only look better next year if they play Trout.
Check this out–just posted on Extra Bases:
“In conversations with sources both inside the locker room and in the front office, some disturbing stories emerged:
Carl Crawford kept more and more to himself as the season progressed, largely because the clubhouse culture here was unlike any he’d experienced during his decade with Tampa Bay. A consummate pro, Crawford had once grabbed Pat Burrell and thrown him up against a wall, angrily telling Burrell that his unprofessional ways were not accepted in the Rays’ clubhouse. Tampa Bay management had their speedy outfielder’s back, trading Burrell a short time later. That’s the kind of cache Crawford had in that room, and with that organization.
But in Boston, Crawford apparently felt he couldn’t exert his influence because he wasn’t one of the veterans who understood what the Sox organization considered acceptable and what had led them to victory. Finally, late in the season but before the team entered its death spiral, Crawford had had enough. He launched into an impassioned speech, imploring teammates to get it together. It fell on deaf ears.”
It only gets worse and worse. This is beyond incredible. Mets squared, anyone? WHy would anybody want to play for that club?
What happened to the Angels is the same thing that happened to NYY/BOS. The Rangers got good like the Rays did.
So, what we were right all along? Beckett’s a DB?
Jerkface October 13th, 2011 at 2:03 pm
And certainly cannot be argued that Washington values defense LESS than Mike Scoscia, who willingly played Rivera, Wells, Hunter, and Abreu in his outfield. The latter 3 might have made a good defensive outfield in like… 2003.
Scoscia certainly overrates catcher defense, and then fails to see who is even worth putting at the position to maximize it.
————————
The fact that Scoscia had Rivera, Napoli, Abreu and Hunter on the roster was part of the reason why Rivera and Napoli were traded.
There were too many DHs and they were trying to improve defensively.
The idea was for Borgeous to play CF, Hunter to play RF, Abreu to DH and Morales to play 1b.
With that alignment and Scoscia not wanting Napoli behind the plate or Rivera in LF there was no place for them so they were traded for Wells. It was a bad idea. A very very bad idea. Not because of the player. Wells the player would’ve made sense, but not at that contract.
Well their player development is all relative. Even though they are said to be big market players in FA they rarely put their money where their mouths are. And they essentially hold onto all their prospects.
It’s not often that I agree with Francesa – but on this one he’s spot on. There’s not a worse fit in baseball right now for the Yankees than Big Papi.
The Cubs are stupid imo. They are seriously giving the Sox the chance to take real, valuable players. No, I’m not suggesting Castro, but a player from their already barren farm system.
The Sox gave their permission to the Cubs to talk to Theo, you don’t need to give up anything valuable. Tell them to give him up or take him back.
http://www.boston.com/sports/b....._ta_1.html
Ortiz fits very well *again* if they give the catcher reins over to Montero.
Big bat at DH that crushes RHP. Just what the doctor ordered.
Phranchise October 13th, 2011 at 2:12 pm
Well their player development is all relative. Even though they are said to be big market players in FA they rarely put their money where their mouths are. And they essentially hold onto all their prospects.
—————-
I don’t know if that’s true. They spent a lot of money on Hunter, Abreu, Piniero, Rodney, Downs. Traded prospects for Haren, developed Weaver, Kendrick, Trumbo and scouted and signed Morales
I just can’t help it. Here’s O’Shaunessey. He’s right.
http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....h_red_sox/
Could you imagine YES putting up signs to watch Man U soccer instead of a one game playoff of the Yankees? Unbelievable.
LGY October 13th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Ortiz fits very well *again* if they give the catcher reins over to Montero.
Big bat at DH that crushes RHP. Just what the doctor ordered.
—————-
Because the Yankees need a 37 year old who can’t play the field? Even if they give the catcher job to Montero and put him there for 162 games they’re still going to need to DH Alex at least once every 5 games and Jeter will get some time there too.
And I know – you don’t ever want Derek DHing – get over it. It happens and will continue to happen.
LGY October 13th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Ortiz fits very well *again* if they give the catcher reins over to Montero.
Big bat at DH that crushes RHP. Just what the doctor ordered.
*******************
LGY- NO!!!!
LGY -
Even if the Yankees wanted a full time DH – which they don’t – instead of signing Big Sloppy go out and sign Prince. Much younger, also demolishes RHP.
what Dr is that?
bromes October 13th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Clearly, Girardi’s best moves this season were his overall handling of the bullpen and his ignoring the morons who were screaming for Jeter to be moved down in the lineup right before 3,000 hits..
NOBODY can deny he did an excellent job in those two scenarios…
—
Girardi did nothing. He stuck with Jeter like he stuck with .220 hitting (vs rhp) Teixeira until the last week of the season. He was lucky that Jeter turned it around after he returned from the DL.
Yeah, he makes sure that bullpen guys don’t pitch too many innings. Woop-dee-doo.
upstate kate October 13th, 2011 at 2:20 pm
what Dr is that?
———–
Kavorkian
jacksquat October 13th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
bromes October 13th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Clearly, Girardi’s best moves this season were his overall handling of the bullpen and his ignoring the morons who were screaming for Jeter to be moved down in the lineup right before 3,000 hits..
NOBODY can deny he did an excellent job in those two scenarios…
—
Girardi did nothing. He stuck with Jeter like he stuck with .220 hitting (vs rhp) Teixeira until the last week of the season. He was lucky that Jeter turned it around after he returned from the DL.
Yeah, he makes sure that bullpen guys don’t pitch too many innings. Woop-dee-doo.
——————
so you’re saying the Yankees had the best record in the league in spite of Girardi?
From the Chia Pet’s article:
“It would be nice if they’d hire a strong-willed field manager, but we fear they’re going to go with a no-name who’ll carry out the orders of Carmine the Computer, Tom Tippett, and Bill James.”
kate- it’d have to be Dr. Kavorkian
PittsburghYankeeFan October 13th, 2011 at 2:06 pm
Check this out–just posted on Extra Bases:
“In conversations with sources both inside the locker room and in the front office, some disturbing stories emerged:
Carl Crawford kept more and more to himself as the season progressed, largely because the clubhouse culture here was unlike any he’d experienced during his decade with Tampa Bay. A consummate pro, Crawford had once grabbed Pat Burrell and thrown him up against a wall, angrily telling Burrell that his unprofessional ways were not accepted in the Rays’ clubhouse. Tampa Bay management had their speedy outfielder’s back, trading Burrell a short time later. That’s the kind of cache Crawford had in that room, and with that organization.
But in Boston, Crawford apparently felt he couldn’t exert his influence because he wasn’t one of the veterans who understood what the Sox organization considered acceptable and what had led them to victory. Finally, late in the season but before the team entered its death spiral, Crawford had had enough. He launched into an impassioned speech, imploring teammates to get it together. It fell on deaf ears.”
It only gets worse and worse. This is beyond incredible. Mets squared, anyone? WHy would anybody want to play for that club?
—
I suspect that this all evolved from the culture of “idiots”.
and Chip beat me.
LOL
The Sox are going to survive. But winning games will be easier than fixing the club. And fixing the club will be easier than fixing their image.
Crawford had had enough. He launched into an impassioned speech, imploring teammates to get it together. It fell on deaf ears.”
Crawford should be in those “wanna getaway” commercials. That extra pocket change will
help him feed his family.
good answer Chip and Erin
m October 13th, 2011 at 2:27 pm
The Sox are going to survive. But winning games will be easier than fixing the club. And fixing the club will be easier than fixing their image.
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I will say this for them. Starting over (at manager and GM) is better than letting a bad situation fester which I think the Yankees did at the end of the Torre years.
Chip October 13th, 2011 at 2:23 pm
jacksquat October 13th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
bromes October 13th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Clearly, Girardi’s best moves this season were his overall handling of the bullpen and his ignoring the morons who were screaming for Jeter to be moved down in the lineup right before 3,000 hits..
NOBODY can deny he did an excellent job in those two scenarios…
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Girardi did nothing. He stuck with Jeter like he stuck with .220 hitting (vs rhp) Teixeira until the last week of the season. He was lucky that Jeter turned it around after he returned from the DL.
Yeah, he makes sure that bullpen guys don’t pitch too many innings. Woop-dee-doo.
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so you’re saying the Yankees had the best record in the league in spite of Girardi?
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I think they could have had the same or better record with many other managers. I don’t think Girardi is a terrible manager overall, I’m not saying he does everything badly, so no, not necessarily “in spite of”. Some discipline and “loyalty” is fine, but Girardi goes way too far at times. He is way too tight. A little more intellectual flexibility and even creativity would be nice.
Oh no, they need to use the DH spot to rest their aging players!! Same script every year.
Jeter DH’d 10 times this season.
SoS
Right. He give the speech, nobody listens in total silence, and the announcer says “Wanna get away?”
LGY -
Even if the Yankees wanted a full time DH – which they don’t – instead of signing Big Sloppy go out and sign Prince. Much younger, also demolishes RHP.
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Not a chance the Yankees would invest 6+ years and at least $120 million at DH with Prince Fielder.
Jeter does not need to DH, he could just take some full days off. As a senior citizen it comes with the territory.
The only reason Jeter even got 10 games at DH is because for the 2nd straight season the Yankees didn’t have a real DH.
Chip,
That’s interesting. But to be fair, the Sox are termite-ridden. The Yankees were basically a turn-key operation, and getting rid of Torre actually opened the door for a more unified team. Yes, we didn’t do much in the playoffs in Torre’s later years, but it was no train wreck.
Anyway, it’s going to be real awkward next season. They might need a larger than life manager (like Showalter!) to kind of suck all the energy towards him. You know, deflect while the players readjust? Because they will have to. They’ve been knocked of their pedestals, are hated in Boston, and are being ridiculed in the baseball world. It’s beyond embarrassing.
And fixing the club will be easier than fixing their image.
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Their image cant be fixed.
Cant fix youks grill.
Pedroia cant pass for Santa Clause with his Elf stature. Not even pumps could fix that.
Ortiz cant get rid of his gut with all the shakes he downs the empanadas with.
Beckett loves beer days in the clubhouse when its work out day.
Gonzalez loves dos xx and likes hanging out in the clubhouse as well.
Crawford is blowing up T. Hunter phone hoping to be trading to Disneyland this winter.
JD Drew is fine now that the season is over.
When’s the last time Jeter took off 10 full days that weren’t injury related?
Alex will need to DH more than Jeter.
Still waiting for the Jeter to leftfield transition.
DH will be OWNED by Alex in about a year.
LGY October 13th, 2011 at 2:30 pm
Oh no, they need to use the DH spot to rest their aging players!! Same script every year.
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That’s because it is true every year.
Yankees are not signing a DH. Unless Chavez retires and they sign Thome to provide some punch off the bench.
(they’re also not doing that but I figured since I burst your Ortiz bubble I would throw you a bone)
I feel bad for Crawford…..well as bad as I can feel for anyone making 20 million dollars a year. He made a great choice financially…..but baseball wise Boston is probably the worst place in the league for him to play…..the ballpark….the clubhouse…..the expectations etc…
As much as we abuse Theo the Wonder Child on this blog, the is no dummy.
If the Sox were fixable and a good situation, don’t you think he would have stayed, given his family ties to Boston?
Yes, it’s that bad. Didn’t Henry and Luccino partially own the Marlins for awhile?
How’s the search for a new football team going, SoS?
Buffalo might be a good choice after all. Though Detroit might end up being better.
It was not just the last game of the series–Arod had not had a significant at bat since injurying his thumb–anyone who watches the yankees on a regular basis could see his at bats the last few weeks were not very good–the decision to move him in the order or pinch hit for him should have been made long before game five, that said–Girardi is not a bad manager, but does make some strange decisions and never accepts any responsibility–prime example last game in Tampa, blowing thru the pen and then having to rely on Proctor who eventually loses the game. Over protective of some players to a fault!
m October 13th, 2011 at 2:35 pm
Chip,
That’s interesting. But to be fair, the Sox are termite-ridden. The Yankees were basically a turn-key operation, and getting rid of Torre actually opened the door for a more unified team. Yes, we didn’t do much in the playoffs in Torre’s later years, but it was no train wreck.
Anyway, it’s going to be real awkward next season. They might need a larger than life manager (like Showalter!) to kind of suck all the energy towards him. You know, deflect while the players readjust? Because they will have to. They’ve been knocked of their pedestals, are hated in Boston, and are being ridiculed in the baseball world. It’s beyond embarrassing.
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I think the most fascinating thing will be what the new GM/manager does with four icons:
Ortiz, Varitek, Wakefield, Youk.
Ortiz, Varitek and Wake should all be gone and Youk (much like Posada this past year) needs to be transitioned to DH – not that he’s not a good 3b but his injuries are piling up.
Theo was able to dump some fan favorites (Pedro, Millar, Damon) but he had a title to fall back on. The incoming GM won’t have that on his resume.
Crawford should have stayed w/ Tampa (yeah I know they couldn’t pay him) or gone to the Angels.
Why would the Yankees sign a DH? They have Montero to do that when he is not catching.
That’s because it is true every year.
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Except it isn’t.
DH has turned into a rotating spot the past two years only because the players slated to play there full time got hurt or sucked.
Right. He give the speech, nobody listens in total silence, and the announcer says “Wanna get away?”
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PYF,
I was thinking his back is towards the players hes doing some chalk talk and turns around only to see and empty room, lights out accept for JD hanging out in a tubb with his ducky and headphones on. Then he gets a text from his agent saying Wana get away?
blake,
I agree. I kind of felt sorry for him when he revealed that he found out that the Sox were tailing him. But reading how he retreated in the clubhouse because he didn’t like what was going on kind of pulled on the heart strings. But we all knew that it wouldn’t be a good fit. I think CC was able to make changes here because the clubhouse culture is different. And it was more loosening up the clubhouse rather than entitlement that Boston is dealing with.
New Post: The impact of Eppler and Oppenheimer
Though Detroit might end up being better.
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Bingo mel!! Im just following the Lions and rooting against the Pats, while hoping MY Colts tank the rest of the season to get Luck or trade him for 7 picks.
Ben Cherington, the New Kid on the Block, Favorite to be the next GM in baseball to get handed whatever he wants
The overwhelming DH at bats will be taken by Arod and Montero… maybe 135 or so
Add in 8-10 for Jeter, 6-8 for Tex…6-8 for Cano… couple for Swisher or Granderson… and you’re pretty much at 162 no?
Sounds like a good rotation to me
*games
Sorry, I missed the first two words of the article.
“Utter chaos.”
Markakis for for Swisher is a no-brainer…I’d take this deal every day. Adding Montero kills it…no way its worth giving up potential of Montero. Swisher’s actual impact on wins/losses in regular season is marginal…Yanks win the AL East with or without him. And 0 for 30 with RISP in postseason career ends the argument…