What to do with Hector Noesi?
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Oct 15, 2011 
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Back in February, as pitchers and catchers reported to spring training, I wanted to be bold. I made my roster predictions, and I wanted to go away from conventional thinking in the rotation. This is what I wrote at the time:
I really wanted to shake up the system here and predict either Hector Noesi making the rotation or the Yankees pulling off a late-spring trade for a fourth starter. In the end, I decided to go with conventional thinking. I do think Noesi could make a serious run at a rotation spot…
Of course, Noesi didn’t report to camp on time, and he was sent to the minor league complex long before making any sort of impression. He instead made an impression in the regular season, sliding into a long relief role and pitching well enough to stay in the big league bullpen.
But what to do with Noesi going forward?
Yesterday, Kevin Goldstein reported that Noesi will be working as a starter this winter. It makes sense in so many ways, not only to build up his innings, but also to let him return to the role he had throughout the minor leagues.
Noesi has proven he can get big league hitters out, and although his walks were up this season, he has a strong history of throwing strikes. He kind of reminds me of Ivan Nova, if only because he never generated Phil Hughes-level prospect hype, but he still pitched well in the minor leagues and drew some relatively quiet raves about his ultimate potential.
Given the number of strong rotation prospects in the upper levels of the Yankees system, it’s inevitable that some will be either traded or converted to the bullpen, and it may be that Noesi has found his spot as a reliever. I could be that he’ll continue to thrive in that role, eventually moving into late-inning situations.
But there’s a lot to be said for letting a young starter stay in the rotation until he proves he can’t handle it. If Noesi has enough to make it as a big league starter — and the Yankees don’t need him in the bullpen next season — it might be worth taking a look. Maybe it’s next spring that I’ll go against conventional thinking and predict Noesi breaking camp with a rotation spot.
Associated Press photo
Good morning, Anybody!
Guys like Noesi and the others still at S/W are one of the factors that makes shelling out millions for a pitcher like Wilson less palatable to me. At least one of these guys is going to be a good ML pitcher very soon.
Noesi is a guy that should be given ample opportunity to win a starting slot in 2012.
Throw him into the mix with Warren, Mitchell, and Phelps and may the best man win the job.
Good challenge for the Yankees to have.
Good morning Tom-
CJ Wilson has been the worst of the #1 pitchers throughout the playoffs of the teams that advanced. His only asset is he’s a lefty and has only 200 innngs x 2 years of wear and tear on his soon to be 31 yo arm.
Like Noesi.
Talk of lefty Danks and righty Cain- only thing there is they are FA’s next year. Hate to give up a player like Noesi for a possible 1 year rental.
YT
The Rays seem to have pretty good success growing their own. I wouldn’t trade Noesi for a one-year rental before we see what we’ve got. If he turns out well, then he’s worth more in a trade. If not, bring in the next guy and see what he’s got.
Tom-
You’ll enjoy this one-
blake October 14th, 2011 at 11:22 pm
“What if the Yankees took on Derek Lowe’s contract?”
—————
Why would they want to do that?
——————————————————————————-
Bret The Hitman October 14th, 2011 at 11:23 pm
Blake,
To entice the Braves to take on Teixeira?
———————————————————————————–
Bret wants the Yankees to go get Fielder.
Teixeira, while enjoying his time in Atlanta both as a Brave and a student at Georgia Tech, is not waving his NTC, plus the Braves have the #2 ROY at 1st in Freddie Freeman, and the Braves are reluctant to take on payroll.
One thing that many were supporting was getting Chamberlain back as a starter.
Very nice to take a point out of today’s game.
I didnt want to dispute anything CB said last night, because of superstition.
But although the team Liverpool was facing this morning is superior in quality and depth, it is NEVER easy to win on the road, especially against your archrival, in England. Also not taken into account by CB was the fact that Liverpool’s opponent today have an extremely important match coming up midweek, so a lot of their team was kept on the bench for most of the match today.
Liverpool and their fans are almost exactly like the Red Sox and their fans. Arrogant, entitled, scum. The only difference is, Liverpool have a history of winning, the Red Sox have a history of failure, though Im not sure you can consider 5 (7*) World Series titles failure.
YT,
What on earth would be gained by taking on Lowe? Holy Smokes!
I’m in the Chamberlain as starter camp, too.
Give him a real chance to make the rotation is what they should do…..good delivery, good stuff, good control with improving fastball command. I like him a lot
blake,
Noesi, or Chamberlain, or both?
The Yankees would have to be overwhelmed in a deal to part with Eduardo Nunez. He’ll work on his defensive deficiencies in the Dominican League and be better in 2012.
The team lacks in muti postion infielders except for Ramiro Pena who has little in the way of a bat.
With a good spring, Brandon Laird should make the team as a utilty corner IF or corner OF.
Somebody like Walter Ibarra is still 2 years away.
If Cashman were to have interest in John Danks they can use Phelps, Brackman, and one of Golson / Dickerson / Maxwell.
Tom,
Both….but Joba wont be ready to start the year most likely. We have to see how things shake out…..whether they add a starter…..whether they bring Garcia back…..whether they can find a taker for AJ if they try etc……but Id certainly give Noesi a real chance to win a spot and I hope they build Joba back as a starter (not optimistic they will though)
# Yankee Trader October 15th, 2011 at 9:40 am
One thing that many were supporting was getting Chamberlain back as a starter.
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*nods head*
Yeahhhhhhhh buddy
“If Cashman were to have interest in John Danks they can use Phelps, Brackman, and one of Golson / Dickerson / Maxwell.”
I don’t think the Chisox can command a ton for a rental…..but I think they’d need more than that. Probably at least a Romine or Nunez level prospect….otherwise they’d be better off just keeping him and taking the picks.
That’s the thing Tex is not going to waive his no trade. He made that well known when the Pujols.
Warren, Mitchell, and Phelps
—–
It seems like we have been talking about them for years.
Nothing but AAAA guys.
Romine and Warren/Phelps is fair for Danks IMO and Id make that trade if I were Cash…..
Cashman did an interview yesterday where he said, out of the kids in the minors, this is the order they’re in right now for a rotation spot next yr: Noesi, Warren, Phelps, Banuelos & Betances. He did kind of group Warren & phelps and B & B together…like there wasn’t much separating each pair.
You guys, the Joba as a starter ship has sailed
Sabathia
Nova
Danks
Hughes
Noesi
AJ traded for an L screen
# CountryClub October 15th, 2011 at 10:16 am
You guys, the Joba as a starter ship has sailed
——————————
We know that but that doesn’t mean it was the right move to keep him in the pen.
“You guys, the Joba as a starter ship has sailed”
Probably but why?
nuney is close to untouchable. who would play ss or 3b if one of them went down?
he will be better all around next year
Joba will be starting somewhere after free agency.
joba is not a starter, at least not here.
esp if they bring back bart/freddy
as was discussed yesterday…..if the Yankees had a need for another good RH arm in their bullpen then keeping Joba in the pen would make at least some sense……but they don’t need him in the pen.
Joba has 4 plus or potentially plus pitches. If the TJS makes his arm stronger, why not try him as a starter. To limit yourself that way makes no good sense if the arm/shoulder are healthy.
# mick October 15th, 2011 at 10:23 am
joba is not a starter, at least not here.
esp if they bring back bart/freddy
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Well then they held onto him too long if his career is going to be that of a 6th inning guy.
Joba should be rebuilt this time around as a starter. Everyone’s fear is the TJS. Well, it’s already done. Now it’s time for a new beginning for him.
Well then they held onto him too long if his career is going to be that of a 6th inning guy.
===================
not if they trade him.
I like Nunez but he’ll be 27 or so before he ever gets any regular playing time and his minor league numbers (and glove) suggest he’s going to be a fringe everyday player IMO. He’s certainly valuable and you don’t trade him unless the return is good….but I don’t think a player like that is untouchable at all. I wouldn’t actively shop him but would trade him if something made sense.
girardi is not going on another joba watch or search for joba , whatever you want to call it.
Also, it’s great to have strong bullpen, but starting pitching is the priority for us
nunez potential value is insurance for alex or jeter on an everyday basis…you don’t know what you have with him yet but that’s where his versatility kicks in. who knows, he could be great, at least till the next one comes along.
I will be thrilled if we try Noesi, Joba, home-grown x-pitcher as a #5. That way we don’t make a unnecessary trade and can wait for FA to fill in or at the least we can take our time and not react in a knee-jerk fashion.
The elbow thing could have been going on for a long time and actually led to the shoulder problem. Joba’s stuff isn’t related to his role…..when he throws the ball properly it’s there….when he doesn’t it’s not no matter if he’s pitching in the rotation or in the bullpen.
With the bullpen depth they have I think it makes a great deal of sense to see what Rothschild can do with Joba as a starter and I’m really hoping that he pushes for that.
I will be thrilled if we try Noesi, Joba, home-grown x-pitcher as a #5. That way we don’t make a unnecessary trade and can wait for FA to fill in or at the least we can take our time and not react in a knee-jerk fashion.
=================
which is why we should stay away from wilson
Can we at least agree to deal from a place of reality in suggesting trades this off season?
Tex waiving his NTC to go to ATL and AJ being traded are not reality
Joba is wasted as a 6th inning guy. Even the Yankees should understand that. If youh have no room for him, then deal him or he will leave as an FA in a couple of years and will perhaps be able to reinvent himself elsewhere.
Joba might get a chance to start when he eventually leaves NY in a couple of years, but Cashman and Girardi have both said in interviews that they like his stuff better in the pen. Now they could have been covering up an organizational belief that he was too much of an injury risk as a starter or they could really believe that he’s better in the pen. Either way, they’ve made their feelings clear.
BTW, I’m not saying I agree with his move to the pen.
“nunez potential value is insurance for alex or jeter on an everyday basis…you don’t know what you have with him yet but that’s where his versatility kicks in”
I like him in that role….and it’s valuable to the Yankees especially because of the age of those 2 players….but I would still trade him if something made sense. I don’t think he’s the heir apparent to SS or 3B with the Yankees. I think he’s a back up with them and a potential starter on another team…..so if some team wants to give up value for him to be a starting player for them then I think you have to look at it.
joba can be more than a 6th inning guy, he is insurance for anyone who can be injured
and those guys can’t pitch everyday.
blake, the combination of Nunez’ offensive upside & the fact that we have no ready SS makes him more important as a bridge guy for when DJ gets moved off the position, than he would be strictly on ability. That said, he could be a bridge guy who becomes the enduring SS, because he has the potential to stick.
Unless some decent SS hits FA or they deal for one, I think Nuney is as valuable as an up the middle guy as pitching, which we have. Be one thing if they got a stud for him in an outbound package – that would be worth patching the position if need be. But it would have to be something mighty good. I wouldn’t do it, for example, for John Danks.
“Tex waiving his NTC to go to ATL and AJ being traded are not reality”
AJ being moved is much more likely IMO….I think if Cashman really tried he could find a taker for AJ…he’d have to eat salary….but somebody in the NL would take him IMO if Cashman made it affordable for them.
*you*
I am not interested in CJ, especially for what he will cost/length of contract. He will block Banuelos/Betances. I am firmly against that.
# mick October 15th, 2011 at 10:26 am
Well then they held onto him too long if his career is going to be that of a 6th inning guy.
===================
not if they trade him.
——————————-
I wouldn’t mind seeing that.
mick October 15th, 2011 at 10:32 am
joba can be more than a 6th inning guy, he is insurance for anyone who can be injured
and those guys can’t pitch everyday.
//
That’d be like hiring Arthur Rubenstein to play Leonard Cohen songs.
doesn’t everybody cover leonard cohen?
yankeefeminista October 15th, 2011 at 10:33 am
*you*
I am not interested in CJ, especially for what he will cost/length of contract. He will block Banuelos/Betances. I am firmly against that.
///
Me too. We know how they dig their heels in for veterans with a high $$$ tag. They’ll get it into their heads they can trade the younger guys.
hallejulah!!!
AJ being traded is not so unrealistic, especially if the Yankees trade for a similar contract, or eat a chunk of the contract. He’s only got 2 years left, had a stronger than usual final month, and could succeed in the NL. Much more likely than Lackey being traded, but that didnt stop the “rumblings” (from Peter Gammons ass) earlier this week suggesting the Padres wanted to reunite Lackey with Bud Black.
JAP,
I’m not sure about Nunez’s offensive upside. He’s got a lot of batspeed but his minor league numbers don’t suggest a whole lot. (under .700 OPS career in the minors and under .700 OPS career in the bigs)……and he’s 24 years old….will be 25 next year. I think he’s a good player….and he can do some things with his speed etc…..but mechanically he’s awful defensively and his pitch selection is poor at the plate. Those 2 things need to improve considerably for him to be a regular in the big leagues and they need to improve a ton for him to be a regular with the Yankees. JMO……
# mick October 15th, 2011 at 10:32 am
joba can be more than a 6th inning guy, he is insurance for anyone who can be injured
and those guys can’t pitch everyday.
————————————————-
The thing is though over the yrs the pen has been one of the strongest parts of the ball club. They traded for Wood when he was having a bad yr for the Tribe and he was lights out for the Yankees. Hughes was a starter for a majority of his career and excelled in the bullpen. I think they can find guys to pick up the slack if someone is injured or can’t pitch on a given day. Joba got injured and Drob stepped right in. These guys are interchangeable.
I’ve got to run, but I like Noesi too. THe more young live arms we can turn to, the more success we will have & the less dependent we will be on FAs. The more success the young guys have the bolder the organization will be about using them, & the more they produce, the more teams are going to want to deal with us for our secondary “inventory.”
Also, I am happy for the folks in St. Louis. I hope they get to the Series.
all of these “good chemistry guys in the clubhouse guys” like swisher and aj the pieman
will be gone soon enough and that will be a thing of the past.
enough of the salutes and even bald vinny is retiring…it was gimmicky and it’s almost over.
If they do decide on giving another shot at Joba as a starter, he won’t be doing on the ML level, I’d guess. First, he’s not coming back from TJ until the season has already started. They are not going to throw him into the rotation without stretching him out and they can’t do that at ML level.
Second, even going that route is because they have a desperation situation – ie, Sabathia signs elsewhere.
Frankly, I’d rather have Sabathia start and Joba in the pen, than start the season with no Sabathia, possibly no Montero because if Sabathia goes there is a desperation trade for an Ace and/or a lefty starter.
Of all the things said about Joba last night, the ONLY one I agree with is that after he lost the competition to Hughes, it may have been the wise thing to do to send him to AAA to stay stretched out and to work on whatever it was that caused him to lose the competition in the first place.
However, I tend to think that despite how much everyone thinks they know, and despite the fact that story may or may not have “shifted” over the season, the Yankees have information about Joba (about all their players) that we are not privy to. Seems to me, if something about Joba was not troubling the Yankees, there was no reason not to keep him a starter.
But I am in the minority. And I stand by my comment regarding his pitching in 2009. There was almost no improvement from start to start. I know about development, and I now it’s not linear. Explain to me how in 2008, before Texas all his stuff was plus, he was throwing at least 3 of his pitches consistently and with excellent command and good velocity, and in 2009, after Texas, he couldn’t locate to save his life. In 2007 and 2008 he was dominant. It also looked like he couldn’t agree on a game plan with his catcher – he must have set a record for shaking off signs. This was not the same guy, and I stand by that.
Joba got injured and Drob stepped right in. These guys are interchangeable.
===============
I don’t take pitching for granted.
It’s unpredictable and can change at any time.
Joba is starting over, recovering from surgery w/ a new pitching coach. He has shown he can be an effective starter in the past. It is certainly possible he could become one again. It is a waste putting him in the pen, as it is presently constructed.
# mick October 15th, 2011 at 10:39 am
all of these “good chemistry guys in the clubhouse guys” like swisher and aj the pieman
will be gone soon enough and that will be a thing of the past.
enough of the salutes and even bald vinny is retiring…it was gimmicky and it’s almost over.
—————————————
They’ll just replace them with other good chemistry guys. I think they like the feel of the clubhouse.
i still don’t think joba can concentrate long enough to be a starter
he can blow you away for an inning or even finesse you for one but for some reason he has a short attention span
They’ll just replace them with other good chemistry guys. I think they like the feel of the clubhouse.
====================================
they don’t have to be goofballs….even a guy like damon was a better clubhouse presence than those 2.
He has shown he can be an effective starter in the past. It is certainly possible he could become one again.
========
not really.
blake October 15th, 2011 at 10:37 am
JAP,
I’m not sure about Nunez’s offensive upside. He’s got a lot of batspeed but his minor league numbers don’t suggest a whole lot. (under .700 OPS career in the minors and under .700 OPS career in the bigs)……and he’s 24 years old….will be 25 next year. I think he’s a good player….and he can do some things with his speed etc…..but mechanically he’s awful defensively and his pitch selection is poor at the plate. Those 2 things need to improve considerably for him to be a regular in the big leagues and they need to improve a ton for him to be a regular with the Yankees. JMO……
///
But by default, he’s the guy in between, and I although I agree he’s not the most discriminating hitter, I like the way he can turn on the inside pitch & hope that Long can help reconcile his athleticism with better judgment/recognition. He’s a project, sure, but as a bridge guy, he has some real tools. We have younger guys who may be pushing up in a few years, & if they trump what he brings then he gets replaced. I’m just not sure where we turn when DJ can’t do it any more, so I’d be wary of just throwing him into a trade to sweeten it, unless it’s something just short of spectacular. Like I said, I haven’t looked really to see who may hit FA in a couple years, but the way teams are locking up guys these days, it may prove irrelevant.
I really don’t think the Yanks will panic and trade Montero for Matt Cain or something dumb like that even if Sabathia leaves…..they just haven’t operated like that recently.
# mick October 15th, 2011 at 10:40 am
Joba got injured and Drob stepped right in. These guys are interchangeable.
===============
I don’t take pitching for granted.
It’s unpredictable and can change at any time.
————————————
And even with all those changes the loss of Joba has been minimal. For yrs I remember a number of fans claiming he had to set-up because he was the only one that could do it…he had to become the heir to Mo. Well since his magical 2007 run other pitchers have stepped in and exceeded what he has done in the pen.
JAP,
yea I agree….he’s a valuable player to have around and as I said I wouldn’t shop him or anything …..but I would listen if he was asked for in a package that made sense.
you dont know what soriano will do
he could go down again and joba will move into the 7th inning role
If Sabathia leaves to be honest I think the Yankees will probably try and get by this year and then go bananas in the FA market next winter……think Kemp, Hamels….maybe Danks too. Maybe even throw money at Hamilton
Villa, what does Sabathia starting with us have to do with Joba? Joba wouldn’t replace CC; he would start at the back-end of rotation. Also why are you expecting Joba to be a finished product in 2009. He jumped 57 innings and his velocity dropped 2.5 mph. So, you just banish him at the time as a 23 year old to bullpen infamy? So, I guess we should do the same with Hughes after his “disappointing” season. I don’t see your logic here.
# mick October 15th, 2011 at 10:44 am
They’ll just replace them with other good chemistry guys. I think they like the feel of the clubhouse.
====================================
they don’t have to be goofballs….even a guy like damon was a better clubhouse presence than those 2.
—————————————————————-
Damon kinda tempered his behavior when he became a Yankee. It’s not a surprise that when AJ was signed and Swisher was acquired he joined in on the antics.
if you have cc-nova-aj-freddy/colon and hughes, where does joba fit in?
# mick October 15th, 2011 at 10:45 am
He has shown he can be an effective starter in the past. It is certainly possible he could become one again.
========
not really.
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True but they lose nothing if they try. If he fails he goes back to being an extra arm out of the pen.
He did not have a short attentions pan when he was matching Josh Beckett zero to zero.
Something happened with Joba or to Joba.
I wish he’d never been sent to the pen. It took me a long time to get over Joba should be a starter. If it could work out, great, but I just don’t see it any more.
I am more than willing to be wrong about this. And if they bring Joba back as a starter I’ll be his biggest cheerleader.
I also find it quite ironic that when the Yankees were gung-ho about Joba starting, the uproar was that he should be a relief pitcher, heir to Mo. Now, the tide has shifted and it’s almost an equal uproar.
Maybe Soriano gets traded and Joba is the 7th inning guy? Would he be as wasted there as in the 6th?
And if the Yankees don’t have CC, and Joba doesn’t start, chances are a 6th inning guy will be super-important. Because their starting rotation will be full of guys who are not a lock to go beyond
“if you have cc-nova-aj-freddy/colon and hughes, where does joba fit in?”
Joba wouldn’t be ready until the 2nd half at the earliest if they decided to make him a starter again.
why waste time with joba again…if he fails, his trade value goes down…odds are that is what they are goinf to do….let him show up as a reliever again then let another team try to reinvent him.
When will ManBan and Betances actually be ready to pitch in the majors without innings limits, 2015?
unless, as Villa says, there is more to the Joba story than we know, why not give him another try?
blake, he also looked pretty good in the OF, he has tools to play out there. His arm may play better, where pinpoint accuracy isn’t needed…I agree I’d think about it for someone that would just put the staff over (& preserve Montero in the meantime), but not John Danks
. I agree they can have Romine and Warren for him…I actually like Warren much more, now that he has that slider, & Romine is a fine prospect, but I’d consider that idea of yours…
See ya, folks.
P.S.
FREE JOBA!!!
He did not have a short attentions pan when he was matching Josh Beckett zero to zero.
===================
Isn’t that the trait of someone with a S.A.S?
He can get it up for the occasion but can vary from pitch to pitch.
Look at AJ.
Joba wouldn’t be ready until the 2nd half at the earliest if they decided to make him a starter again.
=========================
all the more reason to leave him in the pen
# mick October 15th, 2011 at 10:48 am
you dont know what soriano will do
he could go down again and joba will move into the 7th inning role
——————————
He could but how vital is a 7th inning guy on the team. The Yankees lost Joba and Sori in a matter of what weeks. Was there any point where the team missed a beat.
Nunez has always been overly aggressive, his big thing his clearly his athleticism/bat speed, but his plate discipline/selection improved over time from A through AAA. He unfortunately has sporadic AB’s and therefore falls into his naturally bad habits of being overly aggressive and undisciplined at the plate. He won’t get consistent playing time, but it would help with his hitting approach.
My last word: & possibly they just made a really bad decision because Eiland couldn’t deliver during the typical struggles a young starter encounters.
Fast forward to Rothschild, a much superior mentor who knows Joba is a K-man.
Later.
He could but how vital is a 7th inning guy on the team.
======================
i’d say pretty much so, unless our starters can go 7.
mick October 15th, 2011 at 10:51 am
why waste time with joba again…if he fails, his trade value goes down
———————————————————
Because it’s easier to sell a starter than a reliever especially when he is a spare part in the pen.
enough joba-wockey, later guys…
“I also find it quite ironic that when the Yankees were gung-ho about Joba starting, the uproar was that he should be a relief pitcher, heir to Mo. Now, the tide has shifted and it’s almost an equal uproar.”
_____
Villa, no, I never wanted Joba to be in the pen. He has 4 pitches; you don’t waste that in the pen.
“Fast forward to Rothschild, a much superior mentor who knows Joba is a K-man.”
will Rothschild push for it? We’ll see
# mick October 15th, 2011 at 10:57 am
He could but how vital is a 7th inning guy on the team.
======================
i’d say pretty much so, unless our starters can go 7.
————————————–
True but not on a team that has shown they can plug different guys into the pen and get goo seasons out of them. Noesi filled the Aceves/long man role out of the pen did anyone think he would. Did anyone think Cory Wade was going to be good for the team. Did anyone think Kerry Wood would put up the numbers he did.
yankeefeminista -
First of all, I never expected Joba to be a “finished product” in 2009. I also did not expect him to look 180-degrees different from the guy who pitched the year before.
Second, I did not say Joba would replace CC. I said that CC leaving would leave a hole in the rotation, that would force to Yankees to look at different ways to fill that rotation. Of course Joba would be at the back of the rotation. But he wouldn’t be able to be even that to start to the season. IF CC leaves, I’d hope the Yankees would stay in-house as blake suggests, but we don’t know what they will do, honestly. Not having a single lefty in the rotation, and not have a bona fide Ace, having an organization-wide mantra of WS or Bust, I’d wonder if they’d be so patient.
I’m not saying they should or they shouldn’t or that he could or he couldn’t. But I am saying that you can’t ignore the fact that 2009 was a setback for Joba and it wasn’t ALL the Yankees’ doing. At least some of it was Joba himself. In 2009 I thought Joba should have been sent to AAA. They didn’t do that. Suggests to me that perhaps we don’t know everything there is to know about the situation.
Joba to KC for Melky, who plays right field. Pick up Swisher’s contract then trade him if the deal falls through.
Joba starts in KC. Maybe add in Golson or another RF.
Melky starts in RF.
Win win for all.
I meant trade Swisher if the deal is done.
yankeefeminista -
Sorry. I should have been more clear. I did not mean to insinuate it’s the same people. It’s two different groups of people in their “uproars” over the use of Joba.
I can see that you never wanted Joba in the pen.
Believe it or not, I did not, either. But I’m not encouraged that it will change. And even though I wanted him to start, I saw his 2009 as a major disappointment, even factoring in developmental “blips.”
Joba likely isn’t going to be ready to fill any ML role on opening day so not sure his role for 2012 should impact off season decisions
“First of all, I never expected Joba to be a “finished product” in 2009. ”
the Yankees apparently did…..he did struggle in the 2nd half of that season but that’s not really unusual for young pitchers and he clearly wasn’t right.
“IF CC leaves, I’d hope the Yankees would stay in-house as blake suggests, but we don’t know what they will do, honestly. ”
If CC leaves then I do expect them to add a LH starter….whether it be to trade for Danks or sign Wilson but I don’t think they’ll panic and start trading all of their young talent….I think they’ll spread the money around to try and field a playoff team in 2012 but really look towards next winter
Id rather have Swisher than Melky
Headline :
State of Texas will execute 25 more tonight
Villa, all I would say is that sophomore year starting is often tough on young pitchers from Morrow to Bumgarner to fill in the blank. A “setback” isn’t a reason to stop starting a pitching prospect will 4 plus/projected plus pitches. If something else was as factor fine, but having a less spectacular sophomore starting year isn’t a reason to pull Joba from the SP.
Wonder if the Cardinals would consider moving Wainwright. They need to free up some money and he’s only under contract for 2 more years (1 of which he probably won’t be right until after the all start break)? He’s owed 9 million next year and 12 million for 2013
They made it this far without him and we all know they need Pujols money.
yankeefeminista -
My gut feeling is that there are or were other factors at play.
I just think it’s unfair for people to assume that the Yankees were simply impatient. I don’t see that same sort of impatience manifesting anywhere else; it’s seems an anomaly to me. That suggests to me that Joba’s situation was somehow different. Why would they make that big a mistake on purpose???? When quality starters are as rare as they are? When quality pitchers with 4 good to plus pitches are even more rare?
And again, if it happens that Rothschild says to the Yankees, let’s see what I can do, well, I hope it works out for the best (whatever the best is).
Maybe if and when Joba leaves NY, or when he retires, he will “tell all.”
yankeefeminista -
One thing I forgot – it wasn’t a typical sophomore year because of the incident/injury in August of the prior season.
No point in discussing Chamberlain. He’ll be in ST but won’t be fully stretched out for any role, bullpen or otherwise until next June. The team is not about to go on a hold pattern until he’s ready.
Before then, Cashman will look for a starter and do his best to find a taker for Burnett.
For my money a reasonable deal with the White Sox for Danks (Nunez not included in the deal) could work or otherwise sign FA Mark Buehrle to a 2-year deal as a bridge to Banuelos being ready.
“I don’t see that same sort of impatience manifesting anywhere else; it’s seems an anomaly to me. ”
maybe they learned from it.
blake -
Perhaps.
David Kaplan of CSNChicago.com reports that talks between the two sides have grown “increasingly contentious.” A source told Kaplan that Boston president Larry Lucchino is “trying to make it very difficult for Epstein to accept his dream situation in Chicago because of his fractured relationship with his one-time protege.”
The Red Sox “are believed to be requesting at least two top players from the Cubs’ farm system,” according to Scott Lauber of The Boston Herald.
Paul Sullivan of The Chicago Tribune says talks are not expected to be completed this weekend.
Typical of the Sox to try and squeeze water from a rock…..just exactly what are they going to do? Take Theo back? That would be fun
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com
Villa, I think the Yankees *are* impatient with young pitchers because they want to win now. (IPK is a good example; He was a precision pitcher who they didn’t want to wait to develop/go through growing pains) They can only afford to develop pitching prospects in increments because of the win now edict and because they have been able to fill their needs elsewhere (although the game is changing, and the farm is so much more important now with teams retaining their top pitchers). They also had a need in the pen and Joba filled that. It will be interesting to see how long they are “patient” with Hughes and the pitching prospect arsenal that follows him.
YF,
I think that was true in the past….but I do sense a change in thinking recently. I don’t think they would handle Joba the same way today as they did in 2008-2009. I think and hope they learned from that.
Villa Nova-Ya October 15th, 2011 at 11:18 am
yankeefeminista -
One thing I forgot – it wasn’t a typical sophomore year because of the incident/injury in August of the prior season.
_____
The injury should have meant that the player was given even more of a benefit of the doubt.
blake, I hope so as well. Signing C. combined w/winning in 2009 probably made us more able to be patient. Interesting to see how we will handle our young pitchers, going forward.
There’s no way the Red Sox should be able to get 2 top players from the Cubs farm system, or anything.
The Cubs are in control here. No need to cave in to the terrorist network known as the Red Sox.
Why doesnt Theo just resign from his position with the Red Sox, and then just sign with the Cubs.
Nice rotation ……
C.C. – LH
Nova – RH
Danks or Buehrle – LH
Hughes – RH
Noesi – RH
# blake October 15th, 2011 at 11:22 am
David Kaplan of CSNChicago.com reports that talks between the two sides have grown “increasingly contentious.” A source told Kaplan that Boston president Larry Lucchino is “trying to make it very difficult for Epstein to accept his dream situation in Chicago because of his fractured relationship with his one-time protege.”
The Red Sox “are believed to be requesting at least two top players from the Cubs’ farm system,” according to Scott Lauber of The Boston Herald.
Paul Sullivan of The Chicago Tribune says talks are not expected to be completed this weekend.
Typical of the Sox to try and squeeze water from a rock…..just exactly what are they going to do? Take Theo back? That would be fun
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SMH clowns nothing but clowns. Let the guy go to Chicago. You want to top players for a GM???? WTF
Cubs should hold out and refuse to give up picks for Theo. They already lost too many in the Garza deal.
Whats the point of going to another team (Theo) if he’s already going to lose 2 top prospects???
The whole thing is absurd. They will terrorize anyone they can, even their GM and manager that won them 2 World Series.
Oh, and don’t forget who our pitching coach was before Rothschild. Joba was *the* first pitching prospect experiment and the sacrificial lamb.
I agree. The Cubs should say stick it Red Sox….they have all the leverage here…..if they don’t want to let him leave for a reasonable price then let him go back to Boston and just get him after next year. The Red Sox are being petty as usual….if they didn’t want him to leave then they shouldn’t have allowed him to talk to the Cubs…..as usual they will think they are owed Starling Castro
Although getting Javy wasn’t being patient…
Buster says……….
For now, Sabathia’s focus is entirely on remaining with the Yankees, according to his agent, Brian Peters. “CC has been clear about how he feels about New York and the Yankees,” Peters said on Saturday morning, “and we will exhaust all of our efforts to reach a new agreement (with the Yankees).”
# yankeefeminista October 15th, 2011 at 11:30 am
Oh, and don’t forget who our pitching coach was before Rothschild. Joba was *the* first pitching prospect experiment and the sacrificial lamb.
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Yankee brain trust: let’s see how these rules work it will be exciting :/
blake October 15th, 2011 at 11:09 am
Id rather have Swisher than Melky
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Ditto.
I don’t expect Melky to repeat his 2011 season. You know what you’re gonna get from Swisher.
Well that sounds good…..the problem is that Buster isn’t very accurate so hopefully he is this time.
YF -
I’m not sure it was impatience as much as having some really prodigious pitchers who moved through the system quickly, who they believed weren’t facing as much of a challenge in the minors as they needed to develop and who they hoped would benefit from being protected by an equally prodigious offense to counterbalance any growing pains at the ML level. That there was the latitude to allow them to develop at the ML level (which in hindsight was not a really good idea).
As we know, that prodigious offense was non-existent in the beginning of 2008 when Hughes, IPK and Kennedy all started the season together. IPK did have control issues, and he was sent back down (he may also have been slightly injured at the time). We know Hughes was injured, too.
The thing is the entire situation with all three of those pitchers, the real “first wave” of pitching prospects was not ideal to say the least. And it was wrapped up in the non-trade for Santana.
I think if the Yankees had to do things over with these three, they probably would, but you don’t get that chance. They definitely knew what they were trading to Arizona in Kennedy.
The way they are dealing with both Banuelos and Betances seems to say to me that they are going to be more patient, are going to at least wait until they get their innings in at the minor league level, and fill in the gaps with the Colons and Garcias of the world, if need be, rather than pushing their prospects to fill a need they aren’t yet capable of filling. Not in NY, not with the mandate, and not with the bullseye on their backs.
Unfortunately, Hughes, IPK and Joba were a learning curve, if we look back on it.
Sounds like from that tidbit that CC and his agent will consider discussing a new deal before he opts out….if thats the case then the Yanks need to get on it and hammer this thing out
I think Joba as a starter could be a surprising delight. Look at CJ Wilson. CJ’s got a bit more talent than Joba, but it’s not a huge margin. Why not try him there again?
Villa, they now have the luxury of having won recently, experience, and no real gaping need. They were naive in thinking they could bring up 3 pitching prospects at once, and expecting them all to be successful right from the get-go. But this is a different discussion. The bottomline is Joba still has 4 pitches and his value is as a starter (unless his arm won’t allow him to start). The Yankees may as well trade him if they are going to waste him in the bp. Give him a chance elsewhere to be what he might be able to become.
Get C signed, the sooner the better.
I am off to Princeton. (Hi, Pruf).
Have a good day, all.
blake October 15th, 2011 at 11:18 am
“I don’t see that same sort of impatience manifesting anywhere else; it’s seems an anomaly to me. ”
maybe they learned from it.
+++++++++++++
Hughes was up at the same time. He has been given chances far beyond what Joba was given.
The “controversy” involving Joba’s development is media driven.
There has not been any concise information about the injury to Joba’s arm, yet he had not been the same since it manifested itself. It may be that they were concerned about him needing TJ surgery, or there might be something with his shoulder. The injury was said to be the triceps in some reports, the shoulder in others.
Shoulder injuries and weaknesses are really bad news for pitchers. Look at how long it has taken Wang to be pitching again in the majors.
The Yankees have a fine medical staff, and while there are mistakes made, there has to be more to the story of Joba than we know about.
Good morning –
1. What the heck are the Red Sox going to do with Theo if they don’t let him go to the Cubs? Say “never mind”, and demote Cherington? That would go over well, both in Boston and within the baseball world. Maybe they can have Theo get out his gorilla costume and go Trick or Treating throughout Boston. Talk about a Halloween surprise.
2. Sounds like CC wants to stay, but isn’t afraid to maximize his income. Can’t find fault with that.
I was a staunch supporter for Joba in the rotation when they were willing to give him a chance to start. I’d be a supporter of that notion now if they decided to go that route when he’s ready to return.
However, it is very clear to me that the Yanks have no intention of giving him that chance again. That ship has sailed.
A little short-sighted, in my opinion, but I think this rehashed “Joba to the rotation” stuff is nothing more than something to discuss to kill time.
Joba may start again someday, but I don’t think it will ever be with the Yanks.
Yogi,
Yea Hughes was the same time….but they have bounced him around also neglected things with him as well. There probably is more to the Joba story than we know about….but to form opinions on it we have to go on what we know…..
The Sox have no leverage here….they have burned the bridge with Theo and aren’t going back across it (though that would be fun). They are just being bitter
blake, that would be fun to see, trying to cross over a burned bridge. Someone might get wet……Heck, they’re all wet over there….
I’d like to see Theo have to go back to Boston….then trade for Zambrano and Soriano
Let’s hope our ownership is ready to step in with CC, in case Cashman pulls the same crap he did with Alex.
Obviously, one could argue that we’re better off without Alex and his contract. But I disagree
blake, they’re not being bitter. They are being themselves…arrogant, entitled, scum. They have nothing to be bitter about. Theo and Tito got 2 World Series titles.
Why is everyone so high on Dominic Brown from Philly. Great prospect, but totally unproven, no?
Henry says he’d like Theo to be GM “for twenty years”. Well, heck, that’s easily doable. You’re the owner, you have him under contract for next year. Just hold onto him, and give him an extension at a salary that you can both agree on.
The guy is a total phony.
yankeefeminista October 15th, 2011 at 11:30 am
Oh, and don’t forget who our pitching coach was before Rothschild. Joba was *the* first pitching prospect experiment and the sacrificial lamb.
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As a front office employee of the Rays, Dave Eiland has received permission to seek the vacant pitching coach position of the K.C. Royals.
Unknown – that’s why when you trade Swisher to them, you don’t do it for Brown alone, you get them to include SP – Hamels, or maybe Worley.
Sounds like CC wants to stay, but isn’t afraid to maximize his income. Can’t find fault with that.
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Joe-
Is it likely that his agent Greg Genske is going to have him opt out and go to FA, with the understanding that they’ll come back to the Yankees and tell them what the highest offer is, that they have to beat? I don’t like that scenario at all, as the Yankees will never know what the exact offer is from another team until the contract is signed.
If the Yankees work diligently to sign him before the end of the WS, technically before 3 days after the end, and he still opts out, I’m not on board with entering a bidding fray.
Like Papi said, “Too much drama over there.”
To be fair, it was a whirlwind affair when Torre flew down to Tampa. But nothing in recent memory can top what’s going on with the Red Sox.
Joba to the rotation is a good idea in and of itself. But he won’t be back until June. He won’t be stretched out and will be on an innings limit coming off TJS. That leaves two years of control with the Yankees? He can’t go to the minors to get back to starting, he’d be snatched up quickly off the wire.
I do think that Joba will start again one day. You gotta think he’s been spending his time reflecting. Looks like he’s gotten the plan started by getting fit.
Yankee Trader – I saw somewhere this morning a line from CC’s agent, that CC wanted to stay in NY, and he wanted to get something worked out. That would be best case, so that he never gets to the opting-out. While he might get top dollar by opting-out, if he just wants an extension, along the lines of what Lee was offered by Cash, that might do it. That’s still a lot of $$$.
Let’s hope he never opts-out.
maybe Joba should take charge and tell the Yankees he wants start again and will do whatever it takes…..with 2 years until free agency thats what I would do
blake,
Your idea of a bridge year and going for it in Winter 2012 is a good idea. One that I don’t expect the Yankees to ever consider.
But if someone opts out of a huge contract, as an organization that’s a gift. But spoiled children like Hal don’t appreciate them as such.
later
Technically Theo is probably receiving his pay checks from Boston at least till the end of this month. Cubs have all the leverage now that the RS named a new GM before the ink was dry. They are not getting players in return.
Ozzie Guillen, I read, wants the Marlins to look into trading for Zambrano.
Sorry, that’s *Hank*
m,
I don’t know….they’ve been a lot more disciplined lately and big picture in their thinking. If CC left I’d expect them to spread that money around to compete in 2012….but my guess is that they’d try keep everything short term.
# Joe from Long Island October 15th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
Yankee Trader – I saw somewhere this morning a line from CC’s agent, that CC wanted to stay in NY, and he wanted to get something worked out. That would be best case, so that he never gets to the opting-out. While he might get top dollar by opting-out, if he just wants an extension, along the lines of what Lee was offered by Cash, that might do it. That’s still a lot of $$$.
Let’s hope he never opts-out.
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That’s what we’re all hoping for.
Phelps didn’t have a healthy or good year and thus far has pitched poorly in the AFL. He has limited trade value at this point. Mitchell actually pitched the best of the AAA guys. The Yankees will not likely rely on them as one of their starters.
•David Kaplan of CSNChicago.com reports that talks between the two sides have grown “increasingly contentious.” A source told Kaplan that Boston president Larry Lucchino is “trying to make it very difficult for Epstein to accept his dream situation in Chicago because of his fractured relationship with his one-time protege.”
I think a 2 year extension would be reasonable. Even though it would be at ridiculous $$ for his most “advanced” years.
That is not a wish, that was the first shot across the bow from CC’s camp.
Nunez has a good bat for a middle infielder. In no way should he be the back up corner outfielder. That position should be a bigger bat. They cannot trade him without a replacement middle infielder. Pena is about a bad a hitter as one can be at the MLB level. He has a good but not spectacular glove. He cannot get playing time absent dire circumstances.
I would like a no.2 pitcher such as Wilson or Danks and a bat to help against right handed pitching. Swisher, Teixiera, Montero, Jeter are all far worse against RHP. That is why Detroit was tough match up.
Interestingly, I have seen reporters state the Cubs have all the negotiating cards and others say the Sox do. Theo can’t go back to Boston now, can he? Since when does a GM equal two good prospects. If I am the Cubs, I say to Boston, enjoy paying Theo another year while we go in another direction. Let’s see how the Sox respond.