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A few minor moves

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 28, 2011 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Nothing particularly significant here, just another small part of getting caught up on the past week. Baseball America’s latest minor league transactions includes a few familiar names.

The Yankees have re-signed LHP Josh Romanski, who did a nice job splitting his season between the High-A rotation and the Double-A bullpen. He was originally a fourth-round pick of the Padres back in 2008, and he’s put up pretty solid results two years in a row for the Yankees. Probably nothing more than minor league depth, but he’s a lefty. Speaking of which, the Yankees also sign LHP Juan Cedeno out of independent ball.

A third left-hander, Steve Garrison, has signed a minor league deal with the Mariners. Garrison spent most of the year in Double-A, though he did get one big league call-up and make his big league debut. He was dumped from the 40-man, became a free agent and landed with the Mariners.

The Twins have siged OF Matt Carson, a former Yankees prospect who got some big league time recently with Oakland. C Omir Santos, another former fringe prospect with the Yankees, has re-signed with Detroit.

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126 Responses to “A few minor moves”

  1. blake November 28th, 2011 at 3:03 pm

    Trader,

    But the question is…..is the command still coming or is this the pitcher he is? At 25 I don’t think we know that yet. If he dialed in and lowered his walk rate you’re talking about a potential #1.

  2. Yankee Trader November 28th, 2011 at 3:03 pm

    Gio Gonzalez-Lack of command bothers me.

    Attached the RAB’s article listing pros and cons for him:

    http://riveraveblues.com/2011/.....lez-58777/

    Also in his only appearances last year at YS, Fenway and the Rogers center he was hit hard.

  3. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    Chip November 28th, 2011 at 3:05 pm
    Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 2:56 pm
    donnybrook – That’s fine, I’ll be the other GM… grinning ear to ear because I just fleeced you for Brett Gardner and sold you a player that has not lived up to the hype in 5 seasons.

    —————

    In defense of Maybin – he’s still only 24 and has played on nothing but bad teams. At 24 Brett Gardner was getting his first cups of coffee with the Yankees and hit .228 with a .283 OBP.

  4. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    I like Gio, I just would not give up 2 promising, cheap, young arms inna package to get him.

  5. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    Gonzalez’ walk rate has been at 4 or worse his entire minor league career, took him 2 1/2 seasons to get it down to 4 at the ML level… I would not expect that to continue to improve at this point…

  6. Yankee Trader November 28th, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    Blake-

    Hope you had a good T-Day with family.

    “Although his walk rates have improved each year in the show, Gonzalez has also thrown fewer pitches in the strike zone each season. He bottomed out by throwing just 42.5% of his pitches in the zone in 2011, down about 2.5% from two years ago. In ten career starts against the patient offenses of the Yankees and Red Sox (five each), he’s managed to complete six innings of work just four times.”

    I just don’t think Gonzalez warrants trading a lot of talent for. If Matt Cain were even available then I’d be interested as he’s already a #1 on a team with two #1′s.

  7. champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    repost

    champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 3:07 pm
    That especially if your the Yankees is where you are wrong. GM’s around the game know that it’s not the same ol Yanks anymore that can be fleeced because of the owners overreacting.

    Garza while a good pitcher certainly isn’t an elite pitcher and as such would command such a package. He also is not cheap and he’ll be a FA after next season.

    The Cubs have no farm system outside of Brett Jackson and maybe Vitters and have major holes on their ML team as well. In short they are bereft of talent and would do well to flip a Garza for a quantity over quality i.e. 1 big chip type deal.

    for instance a deal of Romine/Noesi/Phelps and Corbin Joseph would be a very good deal for them in return for Garza.

    The Cubs get 20+ years of cheap service time combined and potentially 2 mid rotation #2-3 type NL starters an above league average to potentially all star C and a 2B with an advanced hit tool who may all be on the major league roster as early as next season. If needed you could upgrade the package by switching out Joseph for Dave Adams who I think will be a stud hitter and is a very good 2B with the glove…. a Pedroia type player potentially

  8. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    Chip – Maybin was the one with the super-prospect hype who had something to prove at or below the age of 24, not Gardner. Gardner had a rough go of it to start, but his next season he turned out a very respectable .340 OBP and has never looked back. Maybin is still waiting for that “next season”… and so are the GM’s that pay him.

  9. champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    The issue is giving up “elite” level prospects for Gio which I think is a mistake that the Yanks won’t make.

    I’d take Danks for a package of Romine/Noesi + a Joseph/Kyle Roller type before I’d go after Gio if it took a Dellin/Banny/Sanchez/Mason Williams.

    Hell I think Danks is the better pitcher.

  10. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    Regarding Gardner, I thought offensively he shoulda shown more offensive growth last season. He had a good playoff series vs Detroit, but in the regular season I was disappointed. Not that he shoulda pulled an Ellsbury and just taken off, but time and time again I see him attempting to yank the ball outta the park, and getting away from the slash type hitter he oughtta be. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a good player, and his defense in LF is outstanding. But a Maybin for Gardner deal? YEP

  11. Yankee Trader November 28th, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    Matt Latos and Maybin were reported as being untouchable.

    Here’s a funny tidbit:

    Wednesday Nov 23 | Posted by: roboblogger

    Mat Latos hates Cameron Maybin, taunts him with Panda Express
    Full story: Gaslamp Ball

    Mat Latos and Cameron Maybin did a joint autograph session recently where Latos signed a photo “I hate Cam Maybin!” At first you might think it was a joke and a reference to the “I hate SF!” ball he signed last Spring, but we suspect he might really hate Maybin

  12. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    Get Danks inna package including Betances and Noesi? NOPE

  13. blake November 28th, 2011 at 3:15 pm

    Trader,

    I did….hope you did. That RAB article is fine…..but again they are assuming that Gio isn’t going to get any better…..they are assuming that a guy in his mid 20s is finished developing……command is often the last thing to come.

  14. LGY November 28th, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    for instance a deal of Romine/Noesi/Phelps and Corbin Joseph would be a very good deal for them in return for Garza.

    ——-

    You would have to convince Theo to stick it to his former bosses to accept a package like that.

  15. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:17 pm

    donnybrook – Where is that hard analysis of Maybin’s failure to progress in 4 ML seasons? Gardner is already playing above any projected level for him so “expecting” him to significantly improve is silly. Gardner lost 40 points off his BABIP from ’01 to ’11 accounting for almost all of his lost production at the plate. His OBP dropped the same 40 points, but his AVG only dropped 20… so he did actually “hit” better last year than previously. he could easily have batted almost .300 last season.

  16. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 3:19 pm

    Yea, yea, Sandy Koufax, control, blah,blah blah. Bottom line = 2 possible cheap, young starters for Gio? NOPE

  17. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    Here we go with the “Shoulda\Woulda” Dance.

  18. LGY November 28th, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    If at 25 Gio is done progressing that’s pretty disheartening as a Yankee fan in regard to 25 year old Phil Hughes.

  19. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    donnybrook – maybin shoulda/woulda been a good ballplayer. He isn’t.

  20. blake November 28th, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    “for instance a deal of Romine/Noesi/Phelps and Corbin Joseph would be a very good deal for them in return for Garza.”

    That’s not enough….again why would they trade their best trade chip and not even get anybody from the top 100 in return.

  21. Yankee Trader November 28th, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    Would rather have Danks for a lesser package, and a much lesser package if the WS want to unload the last 2 years of Matt Thornton.

  22. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 3:25 pm

    Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:09 pm
    Chip – Maybin was the one with the super-prospect hype who had something to prove at or below the age of 24, not Gardner. Gardner had a rough go of it to start, but his next season he turned out a very respectable .340 OBP and has never looked back. Maybin is still waiting for that “next season”… and so are the GM’s that pay him.

    ——————–

    So at 24 Maybin is washed up because he didn’t storm the palace at 18? He was rushed. it happens. As an all around athlete he is vastly superior to Brett Gardner, and if we assume that Maybin, like Gardner, progresses from age 24 on – his potential is far greater than Brett’s.

  23. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:25 pm

    LGY – Hughes showed better command in the minors than he has now. Gio does not, this is the pitcher Gio has been since 2006… and he just now got his walk rate down to his minor league level.

  24. blake November 28th, 2011 at 3:26 pm

    “If at 25 Gio is done progressing that’s pretty disheartening as a Yankee fan in regard to 25 year old Phil Hughes”

    Seriously…..and that’s kinda my point. I don’t think we can be so eager to point out all of Gio’s flaws and then turn around and praise guys that haven’t even made it to the bigs leagues yet at a pretty similar age.

    I would rather trade Romine and something for Danks as well if that’s an option……but 4 cost controlled years of Gio is intriguing to me

  25. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 3:27 pm

    Garza to me issa Z Jr. Guy’s a hot-head that may blow at any time. Trade for Garza? NOPE

  26. champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    What did the Cubs send to the Rays to get Garza?

    Who was the big chip? SuperSam Fuld? Chirinos who btw Romine is a better prospect than

  27. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    Chip – My point is that Maybin is an underachiever that couldn’t hold down a starting job on a terrible Florida Marlins team, and was traded for 2 nothing relief prospects…

    Can’t come up with any reason I would trade my star outfielder in Gardner for… that.

    Donny can’t either, all he talks about is Maybin’s hype.

    You buy hype, I’ll buy production… I’ll win and you can keep hoping.

  28. Gary November 28th, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
    Regarding Gardner, I thought offensively he shoulda shown more offensive growth last season. He had a good playoff series vs Detroit, but in the regular season I was disappointed. Not that he shoulda pulled an Ellsbury and just taken off, but time and time again I see him attempting to yank the ball outta the park, and getting away from the slash type hitter he oughtta be. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a good player, and his defense in LF is outstanding. But a Maybin for Gardner deal? YEP

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    I hope he works on his bunting. He’s the kind of player that needs to be an excellent bunter. By proving that he can put the ball down, instead of those popup bunts it will get him more hits in the long run.

  29. Yankee Trader November 28th, 2011 at 3:31 pm

    From RAB’s arrticle:

    Gio Gonzalez- career unintentional walk rates are 4.35 uIBB/9 in the bigs and 3.97 uIBB/9 in the minors.

    His 91 walks led the league this year, one year after his 92 walks finished second to C.J. Wilson

    4.05BB/9 innings in 2011

  30. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:33 pm

    blake – Gio has never pitched better than he is now, at any level. he has not shown the ability to average less than 4 BB/9 since his first level of the minors. Every time he bumps a level his BB rate jumps, and then settles back down to 4.

    Expecting him to at this point outperform that? It’s clearly just not how he pitches. If you want to believe a guy is going to change the way he has been pitching for at least 5 years, that’s great… but only a fool pays up front (in prospects) for that hope.

  31. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 3:34 pm

    Proclaiming a 24yr old player DOA, is short sighted. Proclaiming Maybin DOA is Helen Kellerish. Maybin for Gardner? YEP

  32. champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 3:34 pm

    Garza is the biggest spots has also pitched like a #1 and in a clubhouse like the Yanks I doubt that hot head thing would be an issue.

    In fact I’d love having his competitiveness on the mound.

  33. LGY November 28th, 2011 at 3:35 pm

    What did the Cubs send to the Rays to get Garza?

    Who was the big chip? SuperSam Fuld? Chirinos who btw Romine is a better prospect than

    ——-

    Chris Archer.

  34. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    donnybrook – As you continue to bring nothing to the table that could be seen as a fair arguement, I’ll just ignore your bogus trade.

    Maybin for Gardner? BAHAHAHAHAHA. No. Not now, not never.

  35. LGY November 28th, 2011 at 3:39 pm

    Chris Archer was BA’s 27th best prospect pre-2011.

    Hak-Ju Lee was ranked 92.

  36. blake November 28th, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    “blake – Gio has never pitched better than he is now, at any level. ”

    Well he pitches pretty good now.

  37. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    -ID-
    Now your talkin’ like a Nixon supporter. Except is was, “Now more than ever”.
    I can handle a hot head like O’Neill, but not on the mound. Trade for Garza? NOPE

  38. blake November 28th, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    champ,

    The Cubs sent a lot more to the Rays than the package you’re suggesting they’d take from the Yankees……hey if you can get Theo to do that we’ll kick Cashman out and give you his office.

  39. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    blake – despite a 4 BB/9, yes. It’s the walk rate that is not going to improve in my eyes. He can learn to pitch around it his shortcoming and be effective, but his ceiling is limited by the walks. I just don’t see any reason for his walk rate to change as it is now stabilized back to his career rate. 5 years of pitching data doesn’t just up and vanish. If his stuff is not sharp enough to induce swinging strikes outside the zone, he’s not going to stop walking people.

  40. champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    Archer is a kid with a big arm who at the time of the deal hadn’t pitched above high A.

    Adam Warren has had a better professional baseball career than Archer pitched the whole season @ AAA and has a big arm ( 94-96 with the 4seamer ) and profiles as no worst than a #3 starter esp. in the NL and maybe more of a solid #2 in the NL Central.

    Same thing with say a Noesi in the NL….solid mid ro maybe #2 type NL starter.

    Romine potentially all star level everyday NL catcher on the cusp pf the majors.

    And in Dave Adams a Pedroia type upside with a very advanced hit tool…

    That would be a very good package, potentially, for Garza imo.

  41. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    -BLAKE-
    True. The price in any trade is always higher when presented to the Yankees.

  42. champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 3:49 pm

    the Cubs sent a Catcher in Chirinos who is not as good a player as Romine an okay SS prospect in jak-Lee and Archer who is an upside arm but he’s not in Bettances or Banny’s class at all.

    Romine/Warren/Noesi and Dave Adams is definitely a better package than what the Cubs sent to the Rays.

  43. blake November 28th, 2011 at 3:49 pm

    “It’s the walk rate that is not going to improve in my eyes.”

    How do you know that? He wouldn’t be the first young guy to figure that out.

  44. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    blake – By looking at career trends for more than just the pitcher of the moment? Most guys have K and BB rates that begin to stabilize throughout their late minor league career and very rarely exceed it in the majors without drastic changes to pitching motion, grip, or pitch selection (or a new pitch altogether).

  45. blake November 28th, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    Champ,

    I think most would disagree…..

  46. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    blake – So yes… He wouldn’t be the first young guy to figure that out… but he wouldn’t be the first to continue to pitch the way he pitches either. The list of pitchers that exceed their minor league BB rates is exceedingly short.

    Not something I would buy in on, especially at the cost of 2 pitchers who can very easily pitch “as good” as Gio.

  47. blake November 28th, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    ID,

    Most guys haven’t been in the big leagues as long as Gio has at his age…..pitchers all development differently. Gio may be finished developing and be close to where he’s going to be……but that’s still a good pitcher and if his command took a step forward (which is possible at his age) then he’s a frontkine type guy. As LGY said……those concerns are why you don’t deal Montero or Banuelos for him…….

  48. jacksquat November 28th, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    The discussion about Betances is moot because Beane is not going to take Betances + lesser players for Gio. It would take at least Montero + B + ,or 2 x B +.

  49. LGY November 28th, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    Same thing with say a Noesi in the NL….solid mid ro maybe #2 type NL starter.

    Romine potentially all star level everyday NL catcher on the cusp pf the majors.

    And in Dave Adams a Pedroia type upside with a very advanced hit tool…

    That would be a very good package, potentially, for Garza imo.

    ——–

    Well when you rate those players like that, why are offering all that talent for Matt Garza???

  50. blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    “Not something I would buy in on, especially at the cost of 2 pitchers who can very easily pitch “as good” as Gio.”

    I think you’re underselling how difficult it is to throw back to back seasons like Gio has in the big leagues. As I said……he’s not perfect……but the chances that Betances and Noesi are ever as good as Gio is right now probably aren’t as good as we would like to believe……and I really like them both.

  51. jacksquat November 28th, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    Betances + Noesi would not get it done, even if you threw in Phelps, etc.

  52. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    With the current options of Wilson and possibly Darvish involving NO active Yankee players, the Yanks should wait on any trade for a SP. Gio, Danks, or Garza for a buschel basket of Yankee kids? NOPE

  53. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    blake – I think you are overestimating the results a pitcher with a 1.3 WHIP should be getting… so we’re all out of our comfort zone :p

    Yeah, he pitched well… but not in any sort of method I would expect him to sustain. You can only outperform your metrics so many times before the averages catch up with you :)

  54. blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    “And in Dave Adams a Pedroia type upside with a very advanced hit tool…”

    How could Theo turn down Pedroria 2.0.

  55. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 4:09 pm

    I believe Theo has his eye on Pujols and short of that, Fielder. He’s looking to make a splash in his new role. Everything else is on hold.

  56. austinmac November 28th, 2011 at 4:13 pm

    I must agree with Blake on Gonzalez. He is quite good and has as good a chance to improve as does Betances, only one year younger. He would not come cheap nor should he.

    What are the Yankees going to do with Betances, Banuelos, Warren, Phelps and Mitchell? Either use them or trade them since they will be Rule 5 fodder in the near future.

    I have my doubts that Warren throws 94-96. If their is a scouting report that says that I would love to be educated.

  57. austinmac November 28th, 2011 at 4:16 pm

    It appears most all are opposed to spending on Wilson or Darvish, if posted. Most also want to hold onto all players under Yankee control or trade players with no value.

    If people are happy with the team as is with a sophomore Nova as the no. 2 starter, just say so. Expecting teams to trade valuable pitchers for players nowhere near the top 100 minor leaguers is pure fantasy.

  58. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 3:30 pm
    Chip – My point is that Maybin is an underachiever that couldn’t hold down a starting job on a terrible Florida Marlins team, and was traded for 2 nothing relief prospects…

    Can’t come up with any reason I would trade my star outfielder in Gardner for… that.

    ————

    I’m sorry – did you just call Brett Gardner a “star outfielder” that is beyond stretching any possible definition of the word “star”

    Brett is a fine defensive outfielder with plus speed which often makes up for the fact that he gets bad breaks on fly balls. He is — at his best — erratic at the plate with wild swings in production both in terms of his hitting and his ability to get on base. He is fast but is not a good base runner (which is a big reason why he hits 9th instead of 1st). He has zero power, nor does he have any power potential.

    And at 28 he is likely done progressing as a ball player – what you see is what you’re going to get.

    Which is not to say he’s a bad ball player but a “star”? Not in this lifetime pal.

  59. CompassRosy November 28th, 2011 at 4:21 pm

    I believe Theo has his eye on Pujols and short of that, Fielder. He’s looking to make a splash in his new role. Everything else is on hold.
    ========

    just ran across this, fwiw…
    http://tinyurl.com/c4zyj5l

    |||| The Cardinals and Marlins appear to be the strongest candidates to sign Pujols, with each team known to have offered a nine-year contract during the last year – St. Louis in spring training, Miami earlier this month.

    Fielder, meanwhile, has been pursued by a group believed to include the Cubs, Nationals, Rangers and Mariners. Boras declined to say which teams have offered Fielder a contract, but he pointed out that his biggest free-agent hitter last offseason (Jayson Werth) signed the night before the winter meetings began – with a team (Washington) no one expected.

    “People were still at the airport.”Boras said. “The most predictable part of the winter meetings is the lack of predictability.” ||||

  60. jacksquat November 28th, 2011 at 4:22 pm

    I’m not opposed to spending on Darvish or Wilson, just with limits. I’d rather see Darvish, partly because he is more interesting. I also think there is a very good chance he could put up ERA’s well under 4 with the stuff he has.

    I’d rather not trade Montero in a deal for a pitcher unless it’s Kershaw or maybe 1 or 2 others, all of which are very unlikely to be traded.

  61. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 4:23 pm

    From what I’ve seen from the posters on this Blog concerning possibly bidding on Darvish, the answer is an Overwhelming……….YEP

  62. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 4:24 pm

    On Gio –

    Reportedly the A’s wanted either Logan Morrison or Mike Stanton from the Marlins for him – to give you a comparison, that’s at least Jesus Montero. I’m not meeting that asking price. Not even coming close to it. Not for a guy with huge home/road splits in a pitcher’s park.

    This is not to say that Gio is a finished product or couldn’t improve over the next couple of years. Just that it is an incredible risk to take.

  63. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 4:25 pm

    Chip – Over Gardner’s career so far there have been less than 10 outfielders more productive than him…

    Star.

    Who do you think is actually better at taking extra bases than Gardner is? I’d love to hear this list of outfielders that run the bases better than Brett.

  64. jacksquat November 28th, 2011 at 4:25 pm

    A nine year deal for a guy who might be 35 (and looks like it) is not somewhere I’d want to go.

  65. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 4:27 pm

    I’ll take the Marlins seriously when they sign their first big name, big $$$, free agent. Thus far, Loria has made a lotta noise, and produced a mouse.

  66. blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    “that’s at least Jesus Montero. ”

    That’s why you bring in the Reds ;)

    ID,

    Fair enough……

  67. metaldome November 28th, 2011 at 4:30 pm

    Anyone else think the new baseball playoff format is dumb? They plan on expanding the wild card with two additional teams, one each in the American and National Leagues, with the winner being decided by a one game playoff prior to the regular postseason. So you work hard all season and your fate is decided by one game? Plus, these teams are going to have to start their aces and throw everything they have into winning this one game, putting them at a huge disadvantage in the next round of the playoffs. I fail to see anything positive this accomplishes.

    If they want to expand the playoffs, they should do it like football. Make it three division winners and three wildcard spots in each league, with the top two teams in each league getting a first round bye. This would give more teams a chance to play in the post season, reward the teams that have played the best during the regular season (rather than penalize the wild card teams), and give teams a reason to keep playing even after they have locked up their division.

  68. blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:30 pm

    Id bid on Darvish……Id even bid aggressively …..but it’s not my money.

  69. Yankee Trader November 28th, 2011 at 4:30 pm

    A nine year deal for a guy who might be 35 (and looks like it) is not somewhere I’d want to go.
    ————————————————
    I think he looked 35 when he entered the league. :)

  70. blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:31 pm

    Warren touches 94 more than sits 94-96 to my knowledge.

  71. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    I like the adding of a Wild Card team. I’m all for making it as difficult as possible for a team to qualify for the Playoffs as a Wild Card. A Wild Card team is lucky to get a ticket to the dance under Any circumstances.

  72. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 4:25 pm
    Chip – Over Gardner’s career so far there have been less than 10 outfielders more productive than him…

    Star.

    Who do you think is actually better at taking extra bases than Gardner is? I’d love to hear this list of outfielders that run the bases better than Brett.

    ——————

    With his speed he should be stealing bases at a far better success rate than he had last year.

    Only 10 OF’s have been more productive than Brett? I can think of at least 20 without breaking a sweat that I would much rather have than him:

    1. Kemp
    2. Ethier
    3. Choo
    4. Ellsbury
    5. Granderson
    6. J-Upton
    7. McCutchen
    8. Stanton
    9. Pence
    10. Bourn
    11. Holliday
    12. Braun
    13. Hamilton
    14. Cruz
    15. Crawford (even with last year’s horrible season)
    16. Maybin
    17. CarGo
    18. Heyward
    19. Gordon
    20. Quentin

    Are any of them as fast as Brett – no. But at the plate all of them are more complete players and while the speed gives Gardner an edge defensively, none except Quentin are subpar defensively.

  73. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    Oh, and I left out a biggie, Jay Bruce.

  74. Erin November 28th, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    YankeesInk Joba reports his recovery is on sked. Don’t write him off as a 2012 contributor.He seemed to be reaching maturity as a pitcher when injured.

    BryanHoch Curtis Granderson helping dedicate new school playground in Bronx pic.twitter.com/TGqLNZJF

  75. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    Plus, and again, this isn’t all about knocking Gardner, but if you’re not going to hit for any power and your only offensive asset is baserunning – you have to get on base at a better than .345 clip. Guys like that – your Brett Butler’s, Kenny Lofton’s, Marquis Grissom’s – for their careers they averaged .370 range. That’s where Gardner needs to be to be considered “star” material.

  76. Erin November 28th, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    A working link of the Grandyman would help:

    http://twitter.com/#!/BryanHoc.....88/photo/1

  77. Yankee Trader November 28th, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    Yu Darvish is going thru a divorce which is not settled.

    UPDATE 11/25 @ 12:02am – Nippon TV News 24

    When asked if there was a chance she might get back together with Yu Darvish, Saeko sidestepped the question and said, “Well, I am not really sure. Right now, when I look at my children I think about how I want to grow up with them.”

    And when asked if she would know more before the end of the year, Saeko replied, “I do not know the answer to that either. I will be sure to let everyone know when new information becomes available.”

    Could be that financially Yu Darvish stays with the Nippon Ham Fighters another year, rather than risk a new mlb contract being tied to the settlement.

    Even if he does get posted, expect it to last close to 6 weeks from the posting date until signed.

  78. blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:41 pm

    Bowden thinks Cash will trade for a starter by the time the winter meetings are over.

  79. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    Chip – You also left out actually answering the question I asked you.

    None of those guys (crawford included) take more extra bases than Brett Gardner, which is what I asked.

    You claimed he was a bad baserunner… but he’s actually a better base-runner than all 20 outfielders you just mentioned.

  80. metaldome November 28th, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    “I like the adding of a Wild Card team. I’m all for making it as difficult as possible for a team to qualify for the Playoffs as a Wild Card. A Wild Card team is lucky to get a ticket to the dance under Any circumstances.”

    I understand what you are saying, but just because you are a wild card team doesnt mean you dont deserve to be there. I would argue there are plenty of years when the second place team in our division is better than most of the other division’s fist place teams.

  81. Erin November 28th, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    Off topic:

    Christmas TV alert: The Grinch is on ABC tonight. (The cartoon, not the awful movie with Jim Carrey) ;)

  82. blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:44 pm

    Im a grinch purest as well :)

  83. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 4:44 pm

    Chip – Nothing you’ve said convinces me that Gardner is not one of the 10 best outfielders in the game.

    All you care about is power. 1 tool. Too shortsighted for me.

  84. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 4:44 pm

    Blake –

    I would love to see the Yankees work creatively to get a three team deal done this winter and bolster the pitching staff – I just think that Gonzalez is the wrong target to aim for. Beane’s smart, he looks at the landscape and sees a seller’s market and he’s got a young LH starter – some GM’s (and even some owners) will look at that and say “whoa, young left handed pitching – that’s hard to find, of course we’re going to pay more for it” and just like that you’re trading Mike Lowell for Ed Yarnell.

    I say, for the price he’s asking, let someone else find out if Gio is a good pitcher or if he’s just good because he pitches in a park that is only slightly more pitcher friendly than Yellowstone.

  85. Yankee Trader November 28th, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    Bowden thinks Cash will trade for a starter by the time the winter meetings are over.
    ——————————————
    It just might be a lesser trade than what’s been posted here-using players like Phelps, Warren, Whelan, Kontos to thin out the AAA ranks.

  86. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 4:44 pm
    Chip – Nothing you’ve said convinces me that Gardner is not one of the 10 best outfielders in the game.

    All you care about is power. 1 tool. Too shortsighted for me.

    ————–

    Not true – the players I listed all have power and arm strength and at least better than average speed and (with the exception of Quentin) all are solid defensive players. You’re the one who is listing Brett Gardner, a 1 tool pony, as one of the 10 best outfielders in the game. It just ain’t so.

  87. 108 stitches November 28th, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    Garza is in the same situation as Danks, a potential 1-year rental. Cashman would want a 72 hour window to negotiate some free agent years before surrendering good talent.
    Epstein could deal now that he’s out of the AL East. If he convinces Cub ownership that Cashman’s proposal is for the betterment of the Cubs near future – maybe a deal, pending the window.

  88. Erin November 28th, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    All right Blake! :)

  89. blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    Chip,

    Can’t argue there…….price would obviosuky be key. I still think Danks makes the most sense on the trade front

  90. blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    Garza isn’t a rental…..he’s under control until after 2013.

  91. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    Chip – Keep dodging the question. Gardner is not a 1 tool pony, unless you are blind or purposely ignoring the fact that baseball is not played solely at the plate.

  92. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:46 pm
    Chip,

    Can’t argue there…….price would obviosuky be key. I still think Danks makes the most sense on the trade front

    ————–

    he does, but I’m still not convinced that Kenny Williams would move him without being blown away. It just makes a ton more sense for him to let Floyd and Peavy walk and use their money to re-sign Danks.

  93. Baseball Mogul November 28th, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    Given the surplus of upper level arms in the system and an already full rotation (plus w/ Noesi stretched out) a trade makes much more sense than a signing. Hope Bowden is right.

  94. blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    Maybe they have info that Danks doesn’t want to stay there……

  95. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 4:53 pm

    Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
    Chip – Keep dodging the question. Gardner is not a 1 tool pony, unless you are blind or purposely ignoring the fact that baseball is not played solely at the plate.

    ———————–

    I am not – I said from the get go – that he’s a fine defensive outfielder but that the reason he’s a fine defensive outfielder is that his phenominal speed allows him to make up for the fact that he often makes bad breaks on fly balls.

    In baseball, a five-tool player is one who:

    excels at hitting for average (.264 meh)
    hitting for power (non-existant)
    baserunning skills and speed (has speed but his skills are lacking as evidenced by his poor success rate as a basestealer)
    throwing ability (non-existant)
    fielding abilities (above average – but again, because of his speed)

  96. BX33 November 28th, 2011 at 4:54 pm

    Joelsherman1
    #Yankees would have interest in Garza, but having no hi-level trade talks with any team about SP. #Cubs

  97. Chip November 28th, 2011 at 4:55 pm

    blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:50 pm
    Maybe they have info that Danks doesn’t want to stay there……

    ———-

    Possible.

    But what if the info is that Danks is 100% determined to test the free agent market? Does that alter your opinion?

  98. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    Chip – has speed but his skills are lacking as evidenced by his poor success rate as a basestealer

    He is fast but is not a good base runner (which is a big reason why he hits 9th instead of 1st).

    When you stop making stuff up and answer my question, let me know.

  99. blake November 28th, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    “But what if the info is that Danks is 100% determined to test the free agent market? Does that alter your opinion?”

    From who ‘s perspective ……from the Yanks not really because I wouldn’t assume an extension and I wouldn’t offer more than rental price.

  100. LGY November 28th, 2011 at 5:01 pm

    Gardner has an 83% success rate stealing bases in his career.

    It doesn’t get much better than that.

  101. LGY November 28th, 2011 at 5:05 pm

    fielding abilities (above average – but again, because of his speed)

    ——————

    Even if this were true, why does it matter?

  102. yanks 27 November 28th, 2011 at 5:05 pm

    Bottom line – Gardner is a track star with a bat. He will be replaced as soon as a better replacement comes along

  103. LGY November 28th, 2011 at 5:08 pm

    throwing ability (non-existant)

    ——————

    Over the past 2 seasons Gardner is 12th among OFs in assists.

  104. champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 5:09 pm

    Warren sits 93-94 and hits 96 with his 4 seamer.

    Noesi sits 93-94 as a starter and touches 96 when he lets it go.

    Beane can ask for whatever he wants to but the reality then sets in as no Gm in his right mind would even entertain Gio for Stanton. It’s asinine to even think so.

    Gio’s home road splits paint the picture of what he really is….a pretty good, young LHP who is about league average or slightly better away from the coliseum. His career stats are also somewhat inflated due to the fact that he’s made a ton of starts against 2 of the most punchless offenses in baseball in the Angels and Mariners over the last 3 yrs.

    Would I take him in my rotation, yes….would I trade a Montero or Bettances or Banuelos or gary Snachez to get him…no.

    Hell Brandon McCarthy had a better year than Gio last season does that mean GM’s should trade a top 20 prospect for him?

  105. blake November 28th, 2011 at 5:11 pm

    Gardner has improved his angles a lot in the last couple of years. He’s a good player…..I think they do need to make a decision on him in the next year or so though as to whether he’s going to be a long term option or not.

    He has value …..so if the answer becomes no then they need to explore trading him while he’s stilla under 30 and before his salary starts to rise.

    I think if he coukd ever get on base at a .375 clip consistently then he coukd be an everyday guy long term for the Yanks……but he’s nit been that consistently so far….he can be dynamic for stretches……but then he’ll be awful for awhile after that offensively.

    Point is that a lot if his value is tied up in his speed…….and he’s not that young anymore ….

  106. champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 5:21 pm

    Gardner id an “ELITE” defensive OF’er and according to the fielding bible the BEST defensive OF’er in the game bar none…

    He’s also an “elite” basestealer who after a slow start and Girardi admittedly crossing him up a lil bit proceeded to steal 42 of 49 or 85% success rate.

    He is evolving as a offensive player and I’m sure would like to be more consistent as would all players but he could potentially become an elite leadoff hitter with a .290avg/.390+obp/50-60sbs profile which would make him an elite offensive player as well as an elite defensive player.

    He is entering his 3rd season as an everyday player and could easily reach that ceiling as early as this season.

  107. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 5:24 pm

    I’m looking at that Chip List of OF’ers Better than Gardner, and I look for Maybin to become a McCutchen type player, with more speed, and 20+ HR power. Again, we all like Gardner, but when it comes to trading Gardner straight up for Maybin? YEP

  108. blake November 28th, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    If Gardner can hit. 290/.390 then yea he’d be an elite leadoff hitter……but he needs to show that fairly soon I think if he wants to be an everyday player with the Yanks long term.

  109. champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 5:28 pm

    Gardy may be around until guys like Santana, Heathcott and Mason Williams show up….of if an Abe Almonte can make that leap this season then maybe a Gardner becomes more available in the right deal in a sell high while before he becomes more expensive move.

    I think it may also depend on whether the Yanks go hard after Cespedes and get him. Then maybe a Swisher or Gardner becomes a tradeable asset around the trade deadline if Cespy is mashing up the international league.

    I’d prefer to see Gardy- Grandy- Cespedes as opposed to Cespy- Grandy- Swish personally.

  110. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    Yanks gotta be careful regarding the speedy Gardner as his trade value can decline rapidly. His value offensively and defensively is currently based on his speed. Based on his age, his legs have probably got a couple Very good yrs remaining. Once his legs start going, his numbers offensively, defensively, and ultimately his value will plummet. Cashman has gotta watch Gardner closely, and know when to sell high.

  111. Irreverent Discourse November 28th, 2011 at 5:51 pm

    Making Maybin’s value based on… what? The hope that some day he may get on base and be able to use that speed?

  112. Ghostwriter November 28th, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    blake November 28th, 2011 at 5:11 pm

    Gardner has improved his angles a lot in the last couple of years. He’s a good player…..I think they do need to make a decision on him in the next year or so though as to whether he’s going to be a long term option or not.

    He has value …..so if the answer becomes no then they need to explore trading him while he’s stilla under 30 and before his salary starts to rise.

    I think if he coukd ever get on base at a .375 clip consistently then he coukd be an everyday guy long term for the Yanks……but he’s nit been that consistently so far….he can be dynamic for stretches……but then he’ll be awful for awhile after that offensively.

    Point is that a lot if his value is tied up in his speed…….and he’s not that young anymore ….
    ========

    This rings true to me. Gardner clearly took a step backwards with the bat last year. However, his down year in 2011 followed three successive years of improving play. I expect that he’ll bounce back in 2012. I think that he is a guy that we can expect to give us .290/.400/.420 once he starts to put it all together. For a leadoff hitter these numbers would be terrific production. The big question in my mind is why he seemed to struggle as the lead-off hitter.

  113. Ghostwriter November 28th, 2011 at 5:56 pm

    champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 5:28 pm

    “…I’d prefer to see Gardy- Grandy- Cespedes as opposed to Cespy- Grandy- Swish personally.”

    ======================

    Me too. I would be surprised (and deeply disappointed) to see Swisher with the Yanks in 2013.

  114. blake November 28th, 2011 at 5:57 pm

    Yes I agree….if Gardner loses a step and hasn’t improved with the bat enough to compensate for it…..then his value could nose dive. He’s a valuable guy right now…..but I think they need to see some progression offensively soon

  115. Ghostwriter November 28th, 2011 at 6:01 pm

    champ809 November 28th, 2011 at 5:21 pm

    “…He is entering his 3rd season as an everyday player and could easily reach that ceiling as early as this season.”

    ===================

    Lots of guys don’t really blossom until their late twenties, after a few years in the league. If Gardner can’t bounce back from his bad year at the plate in 2011, then I might be inclined to consider the possibility that 2010 was his peak.

  116. blake November 28th, 2011 at 6:02 pm

    If Gardner coukd get on base at a .400 clip consistently then he’d be one of the best outfielders in baseball….the jury is still out though on that.

    Nobody knows if Cespedes can hit in the big leagues…….Id like to see them sign him but i don’t think you can ship Swisher out until we make sure this guy can hit when the lights come on against mlb pitching.

  117. Niblick November 28th, 2011 at 6:07 pm

    Wow, did Gardner steal DONNYBROOK’s candy or something? Haven’t heard this much hating on a Yankee since … oh yeah, last year, Jorge, AJ, Phil, Nunie, Cervelli, Mitre, Colon … Never mind, come to think of it, there seems to be a lot of folks here who don’t like Yankees.

  118. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 6:11 pm

    Agree. VERY soon as the shelf life onna guy that relies on speed is limited. I like Gardner, and LOVE his speed defensively being teamed with Grandy, but Cash has gotta be concerned after what he saw outta Gardner last season. Had Gardner been remotely dependable with a stick, Jeet woulda been moved outta the leadoff slot early and permanently. Such was not the case, and Gardner continues to be a player inquired about by other teams making Cashman squirm. Should Gardner continue the level of offensive play we saw last season, Cashman has gotta seriously consider moving Gardner come July 31. It’s the old, “better a year too early, than a year too late”.

  119. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 6:13 pm

    I like Gardner. My preference is Maybin, and in general the Yanks getting value outta a guy before the needle hits E.

  120. Ghostwriter November 28th, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    “Had Gardner been remotely dependable with a stick, Jeet woulda been moved outta the leadoff slot early and permanently.”

    =====================

    On what are you basing this assertion?

  121. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 6:15 pm

    On the Fact a platoon was used.

  122. Ghostwriter November 28th, 2011 at 6:25 pm

    DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 6:15 pm

    On the Fact a platoon was used.
    ===============

    ??? When did this happen? Gardner led off in 57 games last year, most of these when Jeter was out. There wasn’t a true platoon used.

    Girardi has made his reticence to shake up the order pretty clear. So, I find it hard to imagine that Gardner had a legitimate shot at seizing the leadoff spot. Yes, Gardner didn’t perform well as the leadoff hitter, but that isn’t why Jeter remained the leadoff hitter. Loyalty and Jeter’s second half had a lot to do with it.

  123. DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 6:33 pm

    I disagree on the platoon issue. Your own comment about Gardner Not performing well outta the leadoff slot defeats your argument. You mention Jeet’s 2nd half numbers, but fail to get into Gardner’s. Hmmmm…..

  124. Ghostwriter November 28th, 2011 at 6:37 pm

    Actually, Gardner led off only 23 games prior to the AS break (about 3 games when Jeter was oout). This is fewer than I originally thought.

  125. Ghostwriter November 28th, 2011 at 6:41 pm

    DONNYBROOK November 28th, 2011 at 6:33 pm

    Your own comment about Gardner Not performing well outta the leadoff slot defeats your argument.

    — Ummm… no it doesn’t. You’re assuming that performance is the only thing that matters to Girardi, when that clearly isn’t the case, e.g., Teixiera’s iron grip on the three-hole, despite his struggles.

    You mention Jeet’s 2nd half numbers, but fail to get into Gardner’s. Hmmmm…..

    —Because it’s irrelevant to what we are discussing. I don’t appreciate the insinuation that I’m somehow being dishonest.

  126. Ghostwriter November 28th, 2011 at 6:44 pm

    EDI:

    Ghostwriter November 28th, 2011 at 6:37 pm

    Actually, Gardner led off only 23 games prior to the AS break (about 13 games when Jeter was oout). This is fewer than I originally thought.

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