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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Williams makes first appearance on Hall of Fame ballot

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 30, 2011 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The list of newcomers on this year’s Hall of Fame ballot is considered a relatively weak, but it’s headlined by wildly popular and successful Yankees center fielder Bernie Williams.

In the Hall of Fame press release announcing the ballot, Williams is the first newcomer mentioned. He Hall touted him as, “the switch-hitting center fielder on four World Series champs during a 16-season career with the New York Yankees. A .297 career hitter with 287 home runs, Williams won the AL batting crown in 1998 with a .339 average.”

Tim Salmon and Vinny Castilla are also among the most recognizable names added to the ballot this year, along with other former Yankees Ruben Sierra, Terry Mulholland and Tony Womack, and former No. 1 draft pick Phil Nevin, who was drafted five spots ahead of Derek Jeter back in 1992.

Barry Larkin, Jack Morris, Lee Smith and Jeff Bagwell are the top holdovers from last year.

Next year’s class will be one of the most fascinating we’ve ever seen. Newcomers next year will include Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Craig Biggio, Mike Piazza, Curt Schilling and Sammy Sosa.

This year’s full ballot: Jeff Bagwell, Jeromy Burnitz, Vinny Castilla, Juan Gonzalez, Brian Jordan, Barry Larkin, Javy Lopez, Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Bill Mueller, Terry Mulholland, Dale Murphy, Phil Nevin, Rafael Palmeiro, Brad Radke, Tim Raines, Tim Salmon, Ruben Sierra, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Larry Walker, Bernie Williams, Tony Womack and Eric Young.

Associated Press photo

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128 Responses to “Williams makes first appearance on Hall of Fame ballot”

  1. Villa Nova-Ya November 30th, 2011 at 7:06 pm

    How can Bernie be on the ballot? He never retired!!!!

    LOL

  2. Deal With It November 30th, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    Great Yankee but sorry to say no HOF.

  3. blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    JF convinced me……vote for Bernie instead of the compilers.

  4. blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    I don’t think he will make it because the cumulative numbers just aren’t there……but he was dang good for about 10 years there and helped win 4 championships…..was actually the best hitter on a club that won 4 championships.

  5. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    Bernie deserves to be in based on past selections and his accomplishments:

    1. He had character, which is one of the guidelines
    2. He played at a high level for a long enough time, OPSing .900 in centerfield for 8 years
    3. Was the most feared hitter on multiple WS teams (Jim Rice Clause)
    4. Postseason performer
    5. Numerous rings

  6. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    Every player is “a complier”. That’s never been the smartest comment for not voting for a player. No smarter than using longevity…which is part of the guidlines.

  7. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    The Red Sox hired someone to campaign for jim rice full time, if the Yankees can’t do that for Jorge and Bernie what good are they?

  8. Red Robin November 30th, 2011 at 7:13 pm

    PSA –

    ” … an investigation by Consumer Report finds the following:

    Roughly 10 percent of our juice samples, from five brands, had total arsenic levels that exceeded federal drinking-water standards. Most of that arsenic was inorganic arsenic, a known carcinogen.

    One in four samples had lead levels higher than the FDA?s bottled-water limit of 5 ppb. As with arsenic, no federal limit exists for lead in juice.

    Children drink a lot of juice. Thirty-five percent of children 5 and younger drink juice in quantities exceeding pediatricians? recommendations, our poll of parents shows.

    Mounting scientific evidence suggests that chronic exposure to arsenic and lead even at levels below water standards can result in serious health problems. ”

    Good luck .

  9. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 7:13 pm

    As much as I love Bernie, I just don’t see him as a HoFer. He was a great player and an enormously productive hitter for a centerfielder, but not a HoFer.

    I am not looking forward to next year’s ballot and the ensuing arguments. As far as I’m concerned, the only one from next year’s first-time ballot that should get in is Piazza and Biggio (in all likelihood). I have no use for any of the others, especially the cheaters…

  10. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 7:15 pm

    As much as I love Bernie, I just don’t see him as a HoFer. He was a great player and an enormously productive hitter for a centerfielder, but not a HoFer.

    Jim Rice and Andre Dawson are not hall of famers, yet here we are. So long as they are in, I want all the deserving Yankees to be in. P.S. .900 OPS CFer 8 straight years.

  11. blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:17 pm

    “Every player is “a complier”. That’s never been the smartest comment for not voting for a player. No smarter than using longevity…which is part of the guidlines.”

    There are players that were merely very good players that played long enough to hit certain milestones……yea every player is a compiler…..but if those players get in on longetivity then guys like Matthingly and Jerkies should get consideration for being excellent although for a shorter time

  12. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 7:19 pm

    Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    Bernie deserves to be in based on past selections and his accomplishments:

    1. He had character, which is one of the guidelines
    2. He played at a high level for a long enough time, OPSing .900 in centerfield for 8 years
    3. Was the most feared hitter on multiple WS teams (Jim Rice Clause)
    4. Postseason performer
    5. Numerous rings
    =========

    Those are good points (exept for the character thing, which I consider a minimal threshold–something on which to base an argument for exclusion, rather than an argument for inclusion).

    Besides Rice, name three players from the modern era with similar career numbers in the HOF. (I’m not tryinging to pick an argument; I’m interested in determining whether there are legitimate historical precedents on which to rest the case for Bernie’s induction.)

  13. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 7:21 pm

    I forgot about Dawson. Good point.

  14. blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    Jerkies = Bernie…..wow Droid

  15. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 7:24 pm

    Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 7:15 pm

    As much as I love Bernie, I just don’t see him as a HoFer. He was a great player and an enormously productive hitter for a centerfielder, but not a HoFer.

    Jim Rice and Andre Dawson are not hall of famers, yet here we are. So long as they are in, I want all the deserving Yankees to be in. P.S. .900 OPS CFer 8 straight years.
    ================

    Is Paul O’Neill an HoFer?

  16. Red Robin November 30th, 2011 at 7:24 pm

    Guess which political party wants to cut the FDA budget by 45% over the next 10 year .

  17. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 7:25 pm

    Cepeda, Perez, Billy Williams

  18. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 7:27 pm

    Red Robin November 30th, 2011 at 7:24 pm

    Guess which political party wants to cut the FDA budget by 45% over the next 10 year .
    ============

    Wrong blog.

  19. Joe from Long Island November 30th, 2011 at 7:34 pm

    Bernie played in an era where steroid and PED use was rampant. He has never been implicated in such. Does that count?

  20. blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:34 pm

    Larkin has to get in…..should have last year. Be interesting to see if Bagwell jumps or if Morris gets in.

  21. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 7:37 pm

    Morris was “a compiler”.

  22. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 7:38 pm

    Tony Perez is an excellent example. Cepeda and Rice each won an MVP award. Dawson won 2 MVPs. Bernie never finished higher than seventh in MVP voting.

    Of course, I don’t understand how Dawson and Rice can be inducted into the HoF by the BBWA, and Dale Murphy is left out of the HoF.

    Cepeda is a special case, because was voted in by the Veterans’ Committee.

  23. jacksquat November 30th, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    I think this means Larkin, Morris and Bagwell have better shots this year.

    Larkin and Bagwell deserve serious consideration.

  24. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 7:40 pm

    I don’t see how you can induct Morris, and exclude Kaat….

  25. blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:41 pm

    “Morris was “a compiler”.

    Yup….so is he more deserving than say a Kevin Brown……or someone who was excellent for 10 years or so?

  26. blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:42 pm

    Larkin should have been in last year.

  27. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 7:47 pm

    blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:41 pm

    “Morris was “a compiler”.

    Yup….so is he more deserving than say a Kevin Brown……or someone who was excellent for 10 years or so?
    ========================

    Longevity has to count for something. If you want to let floks in to the HoF on the strength of a few good years, then you will wind up admitting so many players that it diminishes the value of being inducted. Really, I’m not sure that I understand why we have to have somebody inducted every single year. (The same goes for inducting a player from the Negro Leagues every single year: The Negro Leagues is a finite pool–eventually, we’ll wind up inducting ALL of them into the HoF…)

  28. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 7:51 pm

    Is Paul O’Neill an HoFer?

    No he didnt have the sustained greatness at a position of scarcity that Bernie had.

  29. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 7:52 pm

    blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:42 pm

    Larkin should have been in last year.

    ===========

    Based on what? Larkin is another very nice player, but is he historically significant? Why? His numbers are pretty pedestrian by HoF standards, he never won an MVP, and won only one World Series.

  30. LGY November 30th, 2011 at 7:52 pm

    @ScottMCBSSports: With Iannetta, look for Angels to non-tender Jeff Mathis.

    Will Scoscia allow it??

  31. blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:53 pm

    Ghost,

    Yes…..I agree that longevity has to count for something. There is no cut and dry number but I think you need to be really good for at least a decade.

    My question is…..if guys that are good but not great players for 15-20 years are considered so strongly……then why aren’t more guys that were truly great for less time also considered?

    I’ve always thought seasonal averages should always factor in more that the total cumulative numbers………with a reasonable sample size.

  32. jacksquat November 30th, 2011 at 7:54 pm

    Jim Rice career WAR: 41.5

    Bernie Williams career WAR: 47.3

    But I don’t like this kind of argument, as 41.5 career WAR is far too low, even for CF (and Rice was not a good fielder). Even Dawson is 57.0, and many considered him borderline.

  33. blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:54 pm

    “Based on what? Larkin is another very nice player, but is he historically significant? Why? His numbers are pretty pedestrian by HoF standards”

    Check out his numbers compared to other SS’s that are in…..

  34. JsDad November 30th, 2011 at 7:55 pm

    I’m not sure about Bernie. I’d like to see him in, but that’s emotional.

    I’d put Bonds & Clemens in. They were both great, steriods or not.

    Piazza doesn’t deserve it. He was a designated hitter, masquerading as a catcher. Defense has to count for something. Lots of steroid rumors, too. I wouldn’t be shocked if they were true, though I don’t know. I’d put Jorge in first.

  35. jacksquat November 30th, 2011 at 7:56 pm

    Larkin 68.9 career WAR, at SS (gold glove level).

  36. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 7:57 pm

    Kaat and Tommy John, both should have been in long ago. John’s career was dead in the water before surgery and he had been a very good pitcher long before surgery. He was just as good or better after. He also was the guinea pig that resurrected a lot of careers. Too bad that they couldn’t figure out how to redo rotator cuffs. Mel Stottlemyre would have cruised in.

    Hodges numbers stacked up to every first baseman in baseball from WWII through the 70s. Minoso probably should be in based on the discrimination line.

    Santo should have went in before he ever came off the 15 year wait.

  37. blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:57 pm

    And he did win an MVP in 1995. He was a better player than Ripken was….didn’t play as long…..didn’t have the streak……but peak performance he was better.

  38. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 7:59 pm

    Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 7:51 pm

    Is Paul O’Neill an HoFer?

    No he didnt have the sustained greatness at a position of scarcity that Bernie had.
    ==============================

    Sustained greatness? You cherry-picked Bernie’s best years, and ignored the rest! O’Neill’s numbers are remarkably similar to Bernie’s; he just didn’t do it in successive years. You MIGHT have something making the case based on the production by position, but this other standard that you concocted seems entirely too convenient. It’s only persuasive to those who are inclined to agree in the first place.

    I think that GB& was on to something with Perez and Billy Williams: They are excellent precedents on which to base Bernie’s induction.

  39. blake November 30th, 2011 at 8:02 pm

    Bernie was one of the best players in baseball for 7 or 8 years…..that should matter.

  40. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 8:03 pm

    Ghost, the one mark the writers held against Cepeda going in on the writer’s ballot was his drug and smuggling conviction.

  41. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:05 pm

    Sustained greatness? You cherry-picked Bernie’s best years, and ignored the rest! O’Neill’s numbers are remarkably similar to Bernie’s; he just didn’t do it in successive years. You MIGHT have something making the case based on the production by position, but this other standard that you concocted seems entirely too convenient. It’s only persuasive to those who are inclined to agree in the first place.

    What? How did I cherry pick Bernie’s best years? He had 8 STRAIGHT YEARS of .900 OPS out of centerfield, a place where you don’t normally find .900 OPSes laying about. Thats not cherry picking, thats a streak. Paulie had 7 years of not quite .900 OPS in RF.

    Bernie did it at a much harder position.

  42. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 8:06 pm

    blake November 30th, 2011 at 7:57 pm

    And he did win an MVP in 1995. He was a better player than Ripken was….didn’t play as long…..didn’t have the streak……but peak performance he was better.
    ==========

    I stand corrected on Larkin’s MVP award. Consistent excellence has to count for something. Ripken had the Streak, 3,00 hits, and 400 homers, to go along with his two MVP awards. Larkin had a higher OPS (some of which was inflated by the era in which he played), and that’s about it…

  43. raymagnetic November 30th, 2011 at 8:08 pm

    The biggest joke is that Albert Belle didn’t get enough votes to even be included past the first year he was on the ballot.

    He was better than Rice, Dawson, Williams and a ton of other players who got inducted. However the writers decided he was a jerk and now he’ll never get in.

    The HOF is a joke. Williams ain’t getting in.

    I think he deserves to be inducted but being that the hall is a sham anyway it doesn’t matter to me if he gets in or he doesn’t.

  44. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:09 pm

    Bernie was basically as good as Ken Griffey Jr, a hall of famer, during his streak and better than Jim Edmonds and Andruw Jones. Paul O’Neil accrued half as much WAR during his peak and was not better than Walker, Sosa, or Manny. And players like Tim Salmon put up just as much as he did in the same time period.

  45. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:13 pm

    O’Neill’s numbers are remarkably similar to Bernie’s; he just didn’t do it in successive years. You MIGHT have something making the case based on the production by position

    Similar but worse. And at a different position which matters. Many 1Bman can put up an .800 OPS, that ain’t getting them to the HoF. A short stop with a career .800 OPS is prolly a HoFer if they play long enough.

    From 95-2002: .321 .406 .531 .937
    vs 93-1999: .312 .390 .507 .897

    Bernie is simply superior. Better position, better numbers, better defense at a better position.

  46. jacksquat November 30th, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    Belle had some excellent years, but his career was short and he only accumulated 37.4 WAR, far less than even Bernie, and less than Teixeira has right now.

  47. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:05 pm

    Sustained greatness? You cherry-picked Bernie’s best years, and ignored the rest! O’Neill’s numbers are remarkably similar to Bernie’s; he just didn’t do it in successive years. You MIGHT have something making the case based on the production by position, but this other standard that you concocted seems entirely too convenient. It’s only persuasive to those who are inclined to agree in the first place.

    What? How did I cherry pick Bernie’s best years? He had 8 STRAIGHT YEARS of .900 OPS out of centerfield, a place where you don’t normally find .900 OPSes laying about. Thats not cherry picking, thats a streak. Paulie had 7 years of not quite .900 OPS in RF.

    Bernie did it at a much harder position.
    ———————-

    Jerk, I understand that it’s eight straight years, but it’s still cherry-picking. The man played sixteen years, and never broke 300 career homers. Bernie’s career OPS was roughly equal to O’Neill’s: .858 compared with .833.

    I am a huge Bernie fan, but the case for admitting him is largely emotional. The only thing that saves Bernie in my view might precedent (Rice, Billy Williams, Perez, etc.), and possibly his production as a center-fielder.

  48. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:16 pm

    Bernie’s career OPS was roughly equal to O’Neill’s: .858 compared with .833.

    Not roughly equal, better, in CF… not RF… with a dominant peak. Oneil did not have a dominant peak. He had 1 very good dominant year and sadly strike shortened.

  49. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:17 pm

    Andre Dawson never had any consecutive year of .900 OPS.

  50. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:17 pm

    Jim Rice had a 3 year peak.

  51. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 8:19 pm

    Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:09 pm

    Bernie was basically as good as Ken Griffey Jr, a hall of famer,

    =========================

    I hope that you’re joking. Why did Griffey hit more than twice as many homers? Why did Griffey finish in the top five in MVP voting five times to Bernie’s zero? Why is Griffey’s OPS 50 point higher than Bernie’s?

  52. blake November 30th, 2011 at 8:21 pm

    Larkin career slash: .295/.371/.444 /.815
    Ripken Career slash: .276/.340/.447/.788

    Also Larkin played his entire career more or less at SS…95% of the games.

  53. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:21 pm

    You misread. During his peak years, Bernie put up near equal WAR to Griffey. Stat line is close as well. 95-2002: .321 .406 .531 .937 vs .286 .379 .579 .958

  54. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 8:21 pm

    Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:17 pm

    Andre Dawson never had any consecutive year of .900 OPS.
    ==============

    Two MVPs. And Bernie’s OPS is somewhat inflated by the era in which he played– their OPS+ scores are pretty close.

  55. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:22 pm

    In his peak years Bernie was the equal of a dominant HoF player, and his peak was lengthy. Paul O’Neil was the equal of Tim Salmon. That was the point of that.

  56. blake November 30th, 2011 at 8:24 pm

    and Jeter beats them both. 313/.383/.449/.832

  57. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:25 pm

    Two MVPs. And Bernie’s OPS is somewhat inflated by the era in which he played– their OPS+ scores are pretty close.

    1 MVP, zero rings. Bernie better OPS+. Bernie robbed of 98 MVP because he missed 20ish games.

  58. Pat M. November 30th, 2011 at 8:29 pm

    I’m not certain that Bernie gets in to the Hall, but Face makes a real good argument though…..I do think Jorge has a better shot than Bernie and in time Williams could get in via the Veteran committee…..He was the big time player during that 90′s Dynasty run….

  59. DaSaint007 November 30th, 2011 at 8:31 pm

    Love, Love Bernie. But he’s not a HOF.
    Neither is Jim Rice in my mind, for what it’s worth. So on those grounds sure, let him in.

    Eventually, as was Rice let in.

  60. blake November 30th, 2011 at 8:31 pm

    Jorge should get in…I don’t know if he will or not but he absolutely should. His numbers are better than several catchers already in the hall and he won 5 rings.

  61. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 8:32 pm

    I didn’t misread. You’re saying that he was as good as an HoFer over a arbitriarily chosen period of time. However, that HOFer played at that high level for twice as long. This is the same old argument that happens on this site: People like to use certain statistics over certain periods of time in an inconsistent fashion to “prove” some point that they are trying to make. To paraphrase Andrew Lang, folks on LoHud use statistics the way a drunk uses a lamppost–for support, not for illumination.

    And I don’t think that Rice or Dawson belong in the HoF either. But it is what it is. If Bernie gets inducted, I’ll be happy for him. And if Bernie is left out of the HoF, I will hardly consider it any kind of any injustice, merely the outcome of a highly subjective and capricious process.

  62. Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:32 pm

    Posada is absolutely HoF and hopefully it won’t have to be explained as much as Bernie…

  63. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 8:34 pm

    Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:25 pm

    Two MVPs. And Bernie’s OPS is somewhat inflated by the era in which he played– their OPS+ scores are pretty close.

    1 MVP, zero rings. Bernie better OPS+. Bernie robbed of 98 MVP because he missed 20ish games.
    ======

    Damn, I can’t count tonight; I must be tired. Ishould quit while I’m ahead. :)

  64. blake November 30th, 2011 at 8:36 pm

    Jorge Posada: .273/.374/.474 /.848
    Carlton Fisk: .269 /.341 /.457 /.797
    Gary Carter: .262 /.335 /.439 /.773

  65. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 8:38 pm

    Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:32 pm

    Posada is absolutely HoF and hopefully it won’t have to be explained as much as Bernie…

    =========

    Actually, the case for Posada’s induction is quite similar to the case for Bernie (although Jorge’s case might be a little stronger). They are both two very good, but not great, players. I wish them both well when they come up for the vote. However, if I was in the BBWA, they regretfully wouldn’t get my vote.

  66. Pat M. November 30th, 2011 at 8:39 pm

    blake…Jorge is a no brainer for Cooperstown

  67. blake November 30th, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    there are 13 catchers currently in the HOF by my count…..Posada has a higher career OPS than 9 of them…..and one of the ones that’s higher than him (Campanella) only played 10 seasons.

  68. blake November 30th, 2011 at 8:51 pm

    Jorge has more homers than 9 of the 13 also……and more RBI than 7 of the 13

  69. Joe from Long Island November 30th, 2011 at 8:53 pm

    Pat M. – hi there. Hope you’re right about Jorgie.

  70. blake November 30th, 2011 at 8:55 pm

    and I realize that it’s historically a defense first position…..but Jorge can always point to the WS scoreboard there as he clearly didn’t hurt them that much in that area.

  71. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 9:05 pm

    blake November 30th, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    there are 13 catchers currently in the HOF by my count…..Posada has a higher career OPS than 9 of them…..and one of the ones that’s higher than him (Campanella) only played 10 seasons.
    ==================

    It’s not surprising that Posada would have a higher OPS than a number of HoF catchers, considering the era in which he played. How does Posada fare in terms of OPS+ when compared with those others?

    I wish that there was a way to filter out career OPS+ ranking by position. Against all players, Posda ranks #316, which is really good, but he is looking up at an awful lot of guys…
    http://www.baseball-reference......reer.shtml

  72. blake November 30th, 2011 at 9:09 pm

    OPS+ career

    Posada: 121
    Carter: 115
    Fisk: 117
    Berra: 125
    Bench: 126

    he’s right there

  73. Baseball Mogul November 30th, 2011 at 9:09 pm

    Bernie probably doesn’t make it, but he was very good for a good chunk of his career and a class act.

    Posada will make it, despite probably being the worst baserunner I’ve ever seen.

  74. blake November 30th, 2011 at 9:11 pm

    “Posada will make it, despite probably being the worst baserunner I’ve ever seen.”

    uhm yes….if there was a Hall of terrible then Jorge would be president of the baserunning wing.

  75. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 9:12 pm

    “Posada will make it, despite probably being the worst baserunner I’ve ever seen.”

    ===================

    LOL. Maybe they’ll give him his own wing for leading the HoFers in baserunning gaffes. :)

  76. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 9:13 pm

    blake November 30th, 2011 at 9:09 pm

    OPS+ career

    Posada: 121
    Carter: 115
    Fisk: 117
    Berra: 125
    Bench: 126

    he’s right there
    ===============

    Yep.. I still wonder about Fisk and Carter, but apparently I’m a hardass :P

  77. blake November 30th, 2011 at 9:16 pm

    Joelsherman1 Joel Sherman
    Epstein’s #Redsox were near landing DeJesus in July ’10, when he fractured wrist on Jeter inside-park HR, Epstein gets him now with #Cubs
    8 hours ago

    I remember that play…..it was crushing to the Lohud faithful that were wanting the Yanks to go after him.

  78. Bret The Hitman November 30th, 2011 at 9:17 pm

    Hello gentlemen. I’m at the library with my girlfriend and just wanted to check in and say hi. Since she is so perfect, it’s hard for me to follow baseball right now. I wish I could post a picture of her. I don’t know what I did to deserve this.

    Anyways…

    Bobby Valentine will be toxic in Boston.

  79. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 9:18 pm

    The Lohud Faithful that wanted Dejesus consisted of about 3 people.

  80. blake November 30th, 2011 at 9:19 pm

    I mentioned Dejesus and Bret appeared….it’s a miracle. Congrats on the new girl ;)

  81. tomingeorgia November 30th, 2011 at 9:20 pm

    Bernie ran like a gazelle in the outfield, but was possibly a worse base runner than Jorge, Plus, he had a terrible arm. Not HOF.

  82. blake November 30th, 2011 at 9:20 pm

    Joelsherman1 Joel Sherman
    Was told #Redsox will stand united at Bobby V presser tomorrow and say if Cherington wasn’t on board, Bobby wouldn’t have gotten job
    2 minutes ag

    yea Cherington was on board because Lucchino said so.

  83. Bret The Hitman November 30th, 2011 at 9:22 pm

    Blake,

    Green eyes, blond hair, and dimples when she smiles. Thick southern accent. Girl-next-door look and manner. I feel like she walked out of a movie. And she’s feisty to boot and has a great sense of humor. The North should be jealous.

  84. Bret The Hitman November 30th, 2011 at 9:24 pm

    And when I say she walked out of a movie I’m talking about one of those far-fetched romance dramas that you end up sitting through only because the lead actress is so stunning. She makes you buy into the story.

  85. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 9:24 pm

    Bernie Williams was a sensational athlete who could play baseball, but, likely the least instinctive player that NYYs ever had in center field as a permanent player outside of Mickey Rivers.

  86. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 9:24 pm

    It’s interesting how many HoFers have career OPS+ below 120. There are quite a few of them; some, like Robin Yount, are quite surprising.

  87. blake November 30th, 2011 at 9:25 pm

    Bret,

    sounds like 7 WAR gal :)

  88. Nick in SF November 30th, 2011 at 9:26 pm

    Have fun, Bret, but please don’t forget that our one-year anniversary is approaching.

  89. Bret The Hitman November 30th, 2011 at 9:28 pm

    Blake,

    I don’t deserve it. She is a lab instructor here and can have any pre-med guy, any football or basebal player. She could be a trophy wife but she has pride and knows what she wants. Why me? No idea.

  90. Bret The Hitman November 30th, 2011 at 9:30 pm

    Nick,

    I know dude.

  91. Joe from Long Island November 30th, 2011 at 9:30 pm

    Brett – let’s see…. Good looking girlfriend, or David DeJesus……

    Tough one, there…… ;)

    Best of luck to ya!

  92. Nick in SF November 30th, 2011 at 9:33 pm

    “I remember that play…..it was crushing to the Lohud faithful that were wanting the Yanks to go after him.”

    I remember it too, but remember: from pain comes art. A flashback to July 23 2010:

    Visions of Dan Haren:

    Ain’t it just like LoHud to play tricks
    When you’re trying to be so quiet
    We sit here stranded
    Though we’re all doin’ our best to deny it
    And DeJesus holds a hand full of pain tempting you to defy it

    Lights flicker from the opposite blog
    In this one the rumors make fog
    The sports talk station plays soft
    But there’s nothing, really nothing to turn off

    Just DeJesus and his surgeon so entwined
    And these visions of Dan Haren
    That conquer my mind

  93. Bret The Hitman November 30th, 2011 at 9:34 pm

    Joe,

    Every morning I wake up and every moment I look at her I wonder why she’s still smiling at me. This might not last but I really don’t care. I will always look back on this time of my life, however long or brief, and consider myself an extremely fortunate guy. No DeJesus. But lucky.

  94. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 9:35 pm

    Ozzie Smith had a career OPS of .666 and a OPS+ of 87! He was 13 percent worse than the average player in the league during his career, and he still made it into the HoF! But he was probably the greatest shortstop I ever saw (maybe Vizquel was in his league as a SS).

  95. blake November 30th, 2011 at 9:53 pm

    Nick,

    that’s deep man…

    Ghost,

    ozzie was the best defender…..lots of SS’s have been better players.

  96. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 10:02 pm

    There’s nothing that Smith did better than Vazquel, who was the superior hitter. All Smith was better at was back flips and promoting himself.

  97. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 10:02 pm

    Jerkface November 30th, 2011 at 8:25 pm

    Two MVPs. And Bernie’s OPS is somewhat inflated by the era in which he played– their OPS+ scores are pretty close.

    1 MVP, zero rings. Bernie better OPS+. Bernie robbed of 98 MVP because he missed 20ish games.
    ==========================

    BTW, I just checked the ’98 MVP voiting. Bernie wasn’t robbed of anything. He had an OPS of .997, which tied Juan Gonzalez, winner of the MVP award that year. Gonzalez also hit 45 homers, drove in 157, and slugged .630. Derek Jeter had more first-place votes (2) than Bernie that year. Bernie didn’t win the MVP that year, because Gonzalez had a better year (except of course for the fact that Gonzalez didn’t win the WS that year :P).

  98. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 10:04 pm

    GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 10:02 pm

    There’s nothing that Smith did better than Vazquel, who was the superior hitter. All Smith was better at was back flips and promoting himself.
    =============

    Do you remember anybody else that was as good as Smith or Vizquel?

  99. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 10:06 pm

    Aparicio was as close as you can get and so was Concepcion. Belanger was probably the best glove I ever saw but, couldn’t hit. He was a lot like Eddie Brinkman.

  100. blake November 30th, 2011 at 10:07 pm

    Yea I’d say Omar was just as good a defender as Ozzie overall….and yea he was a better hitter.

  101. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 10:08 pm

    One shortstop that never received the recognition that he deserved was Larry Bowa.

  102. blake November 30th, 2011 at 10:12 pm

    If Ozzie played today I’m not sure he would have remained a starter long enough to develop into a respectable hitter…..he was so bad offensively early in his career that clubs today probably wouldn’t have tolerated that no matter how good his glove was.

  103. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 10:15 pm

    So the Angels had to do exactly what some people want the Yankees to do. They trade Napoli away because he wasn’t the manager’s type of player or the fan’s because he didn’t have a name. They had to trade to get the same kind of player that Napoli was in getting Iannetta. and, they are still stuck with Wells’ contract.

  104. raymagnetic November 30th, 2011 at 10:15 pm

    Bernie had a higher OPS+ than Juan Gone in 1998 and he played CF.

    RBI is a team stat anyway.

  105. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 10:15 pm

    I’ve always liked Bowa. I love his competitiveness.

    I never saw Aparacio (although I’ve heard of him), and I only vaguely remember Concepioin.

    Smith and Vizquel are probably the slickest shortstops that I’ve ever seen–a significant cut above the rest. In this respect, they remind me of Bobby Alomar (and Robby Cano), who are the slickest second basemen I’ve ever seen.

  106. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 10:16 pm

    raymagnetic November 30th, 2011 at 10:15 pm

    Bernie had a higher OPS+ than Juan Gone in 1998 and he played CF.

    RBI is a team stat anyway.
    ===========

    Right. What about the home runs? What about the slugging?

  107. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2011 at 10:19 pm

    Manny Trillo, Dick Green and Ryan Sandberg were as good at 2nd base that I’ve seen until Alomar and Cano. Very close to that level was Bobby Grich, a natural shortstop.

  108. Ghostwriter November 30th, 2011 at 10:22 pm

    Good memory! I had forgotten all about Grich and Trillo…

    It’s pretty to watch the middle infielders play their position when they’re as good as Smith, Vuzquel, Alomar, and Cano.

  109. LGY November 30th, 2011 at 10:24 pm

    :arrow:

  110. DONNYBROOK December 1st, 2011 at 3:25 am

    The super tough call is gonna be Pettitte. That Playoff record just knocks you over, and the W’s are not to be sneezed at either. Very, Very tough call when he comes up.

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