MLB ready to discuss international acquisition changes
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 15, 2011 
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This seems relevant, given recent discussion about Yu Darvish, Hiroyuki Nakajima and a pair of Cuban outfielders… Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Union released a joint statement this morning announcing plans for a committee to discuss changing the way international free agents flow into the Major League system. No decisions have been made yet, but here’s the press release with some bullet points about things the committee will discuss.
New York, NY, Thursday, December 15, 2011 … In accordance with the recently negotiated Basic Agreement, the Major League Baseball Players Association and Office of the Commissioner today announced their respective appointees to the International Talent Committee responsible for discussing the development and acquisition of international players.
MLBPA Executive Director Michael Weiner and MLB Executive Vice President for Labor Relations and Human Resources Rob Manfred are co-chairs of the committee, and per the Basic Agreement each appoints three members to the committee.
Joining Weiner on the committee are MLBPA Director of Player Relations Tony Clark, MLBPA Senior Advisor Rick Shapiro and MLBPA Special Assistant Stan Javier, while Kim Ng of the Commissioner’s Office, Sandy Alderson of the New York Mets and Andrew Friedman of the Tampa Bay Rays join Manfred.
By agreement, the Committee will hold its first meeting on or before January 15, 2012 and will meet twice a month thereafter to discuss issues related to the development and acquisition of international players, including but not limited to:
• If there is an international draft, whether international players should be part of a single worldwide draft (including players currently covered by the Rule 4 Draft) or a separate draft (or drafts).
• The appropriate age at which international amateur players should be signed to professional contracts.
• If there are to be multiple drafts, whether players from Puerto Rico should remain in the Rule 4 Draft or instead be part of an international draft.
• The development of appropriate country-by-country plans for playing and development opportunities for players prior to draft eligibility.
• The development of appropriate plans to provide undrafted or unsigned players (including players age 18 to 21) from Latin America with an opportunity to continue their development, including the creation of a new league or leagues, or the addition of centrally-operated Clubs in the Dominican Summer League (“DSL”).
• Whether and how regulations should be put in place regarding representation of international amateur players (e.g., “independent trainers” and agents).
• Improving the education and acculturation programs of Clubs at their international academies.
• What safeguards should be established in relation to any signing bonus payments made to international amateur players.
• The laws of the countries from which international players are signed and how those laws should affect the actions of the parties.
• What actions are necessary in order to achieve the negotiation of a revised agreement between MLB and the Mexican League that allows players greater choice of where to play and promotes a fair and open system of player movement.
• What actions are necessary in order to achieve the negotiation of revisions to the protocol agreements with the Korean Professional Baseball League, the Japanese Professional Baseball League, and the Taiwan R.O.C. League to accommodate a draft.
• How Cuban players should be treated under an amateur talent system in light of the legal and political factors that affect their signability.
International draft is the worst idea I’ve heard in months
These aren’t George’s Yankees anymore. Time to re-evaluate the way you judge them I fear.
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Which era of George are we talking about? The 90′s to 00′s George is not the same as the 80′s George.
Lotta mumbo-jumbo already, and the lawyers are just gettin’ started. Being an owner aint what it was when Charlie Finley had his season ticket holders names on index cards, kept inna shoe box stored in the trunk of his car.
Gossip Tweet:
ERob3 Erin Robertson
David’s Christmas present came early! Good thing, I’ll probably just be finishing putting it together by then… http://yfrog.com/nw40gmlj
Erin,
What is it?
It looks like a trailer for like a jetski or something.
Patrick and ID-it’s a kayak trailer.
and the only reason I know this is because she just tweeted Bald Vinny and told him what it was.
The international draft would cripple baseball in Central America.
Triple Short of a Cycle December 15th, 2011 at 11:01 am
These aren’t George’s Yankees anymore. Time to re-evaluate the way you judge them I fear.
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Which era of George are we talking about? The 90?s to 00?s George is not the same as the 80?s George.
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The era in which “budget” was something other teams had to deal with but not the Yankees.
Erin December 15th, 2011 at 11:19 am
I thought it was a training wheel kit for a kids bike. Boy was I off on that.
Where is Toronto getting the money to put up the reported whopper bid?
Erin December 15th, 2011 at 11:19 am
Is ‘Bald Vinny’ that ‘Bleacher Creature’ dude ?
Where is Toronto getting the money to put up the reported whopper bid?
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Most any owner has the money for a bid if they wanted to
Toronto actually bid on a whopper. They were really hungry.
VY- yes, he is
Erin December 15th, 2011 at 11:32 am
TY
Hope the Yanks had a Double-Whopper!
Areas where Yankees can have and advantage disappearing fast.
an* advantage…
Toronto has rid itself of big contracts and they are owned by a large media company. They have plenty of money are are willing to spend it according to what I read. They will be every significant competion. Their top three starters of Romero, Morrow and Darvish(if he signs with them) are far superior to CC and the next two, in my opinion.
Now I know how the other teams have felt over the years watching while the Yankees spend money and they could not. The shoe is definately on the other foot.
Not attempting to improve the team in the off season is wrong. If you are not improving, you are falling back. Cashman, who I have supported for years, has done nothing but say every possible improvement costs too much in money or players.
jacksquat December 15th, 2011 at 11:41 am
Areas where Yankees can have and advantage disappearing fast.
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Yankees haven’t really done as much as they could to exploit those advantages (which is quite disappointing IMO)
austinmac December 15th, 2011 at 11:42 am
Relax, Cashman isn’t done yet. Also, Yanks are good enough to be in the hunt thru AS Break & who knows what may be available then. Too soon to panic.
Hockey Fans check out this game winning shot.
sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Video-Patrick-Kane-8217-s-ridiculous-deke-tas?urn=nhl-wp19902
Brandon Morrow of the 4.62 ERA the past two years? Seriously?
austinmac December 15th, 2011 at 11:42 am
Toronto has rid itself of big contracts and they are owned by a large media company. They have plenty of money are are willing to spend it according to what I read. They will be every significant competion. Their top three starters of Romero, Morrow and Darvish(if he signs with them) are far superior to CC and the next two, in my opinion.
Now I know how the other teams have felt over the years watching while the Yankees spend money and they could not. The shoe is definately on the other foot.
Not attempting to improve the team in the off season is wrong. If you are not improving, you are falling back. Cashman, who I have supported for years, has done nothing but say every possible improvement costs too much in money or players.
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My only slight fear is that Cashman is doing this with an eye towards 2013′s FA class and the emergence of Banuelos and Betances.
Both are wrong-headed approaches.
We don’t know that those potential FA’s (Greinke, Hamels, Danks) will ever reach free agency. Two years ago Lee, Halladay and Beckett were all listed as potential free agents for the 2011 season and only one of them actually got there.
As for Banuelos or Betances – well we’ve seen what happened to the last group of highly touted Yankee pitching prospects and the same people who were in charge of their development are in charge of the development of Banuelos and Betances so my hope for their future is tepid at best.
If Toronto wins the bid, it doesn’t mean they will sign Darvish. It is probably just to block him. Then Darvish becomes a FA next year right?
Try that one again…………….
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/bl.....hl-wp19902
We have no idea who won the Darvish bidding yet or if he’s even going to sign.
People really need to chill.
LGY December 15th, 2011 at 11:46 am
Brandon Morrow of the 4.62 ERA the past two years? Seriously?
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My guess is that Morrow is soon going to be one of the top RHP in the game. His walk rate is dropping and his k rate is skyrocketing – and he’s still learning how to be a starting pitcher after being converted to and from a reliever by the Mariners.
LGY December 15th, 2011 at 11:48 am
We have no idea who won the Darvish bidding yet or if he’s even going to sign.
People really need to chill.
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As I said on the last thread – my guess is that the Yankees made a moderate bid but are probably not the winners.
Morrow still has a long ways to go. 10k’s per 9 is great but he nibbles too much. Health, getting him stretched out, getting his walks under control… he could be really good. Just in time to be a free agent in 2014.
My question on this bid thing is – what’s taking so long?
Yes, I know that the Ham Fighters have a week to decide if they’re taking it or not, but now that the bids are in – they should just announce who bid what.
It’s so stupid that Cashman is still not even willing to admit that the Yankees made a bid.
They are not the Ham Fighters…
They are the Nippon Ham team, they are the Fighters.
They don’t even know who placed the bids, this is done on purpose so they don’t reject bids from crap teams.
^ i just learned that today.
MarianoRivera Thanks to the guys at JPMorgan Chase for the tour of your trading floor! http://pic.twitter.com/pjAxBEz4
jacksquat December 15th, 2011 at 11:41 am
Areas where Yankees can have and advantage disappearing fast.
___
The good news is Cashman has drafted well, IMO and the future (2-3 years down the line), seems very ripe with real talent…
Yankees can be a team that develops from within and uses their money to pay their homegrown players the big salaries (like Cano)
Would this help us draft Kenny Powers from Mexico?
GO HAM FIGHTERS!! FIGHT THOSE HAMS!!!
We don’t know that those potential FA’s (Greinke, Hamels, Danks) will ever reach free agency. Two years ago Lee, Halladay and Beckett were all listed as potential free agents for the 2011 season and only one of them actually got there.
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Verlander and Cain were suppose to be apart of that class too right?
# ac1 December 15th, 2011 at 12:07 pm
jacksquat December 15th, 2011 at 11:41 am
Areas where Yankees can have and advantage disappearing fast.
___
The good news is Cashman has drafted well, IMO and the future (2-3 years down the line), seems very ripe with real talent…
Yankees can be a team that develops from within and uses their money to pay their homegrown players the big salaries (like Cano)
—————-
Do you trust the Yankees to properly develop those kids from the farm?
Yankee rotation is littered with ????’s Yanks used to get premiere SP’s whether it was by free agency or trades. Now they are talkin’ about guys like Danks, Garza, price to high, $189 mill, 2014 blah\blah\blah. Cashman is now talking like a CPA instead of a GM with #28 as priority #1. The apple has not only fallen far from the tree, it has been reduced to apple sauce. George has Gotta be appealing the powers that be for a Limited return engagement……………. We may just have us a movie here.
The good news is Cashman has drafted well, IMO and the future (2-3 years down the line), seems very ripe with real talent…
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That remains to be seen but the bottom line is that since Cash took over the draft he has yet to draft a number 2 starter or an impact hitter.
Not talking about international free agents either
Hassey – La Flama BLanca would never cut the hair.
“Not talking about international free agents either”
Why don’t they count?
Irreverent Discourse December 15th, 2011 at 11:56 am
They are not the Ham Fighters…
They are the Nippon Ham team, they are the Fighters.
They don’t even know who placed the bids, this is done on purpose so they don’t reject bids from crap teams.
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While that certainly makes more sense (I always thought Ham Fighters was a stupid name) it doesn’t alter the point.
They’re taking the money – why do they care who it comes from?
“They’re taking the money – why do they care who it comes from?”
Drama
Actually, I do trust the Yankees to properly develop the kids, especially now that they aren’t just dealing them all away.
Not every one of them is going to be successful, and not every one of them has a high ceiling. I think there is a new culture within the Yankees organization, though, and they take this a lot more seriously than in the past.
I also think that this is an area where the Yankees can still spend money so with the restrictions that they will now be facing to the CBA, I’d expect the Yankees to use their resources in other creative ways.
W
Triple Short of a Cycle December 15th, 2011 at 12:14 pm
The good news is Cashman has drafted well, IMO and the future (2-3 years down the line), seems very ripe with real talent…
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That remains to be seen but the bottom line is that since Cash took over the draft he has yet to draft a number 2 starter or an impact hitter.
Not talking about international free agents either
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And the closest thing to a surefire number 2 starter he has drafted – he didn’t sign (Cole)
Gotta love professional athletes. In April Shawne Williams says he doesn’t care about the money or years. Just wants to be back with the Knicks because they were the only team in the league willing to give him a second chance.
Today he signs with the Nets for the exact same money the Knicks offered.
Villa Nova-Ya December 15th, 2011 at 12:27 pm
Actually, I do trust the Yankees to properly develop the kids, especially now that they aren’t just dealing them all away.
Not every one of them is going to be successful, and not every one of them has a high ceiling. I think there is a new culture within the Yankees organization, though, and they take this a lot more seriously than in the past.
I also think that this is an area where the Yankees can still spend money so with the restrictions that they will now be facing to the CBA, I’d expect the Yankees to use their resources in other creative ways.
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I’m not going to tell you that you’re wrong – I’m just curious. After watching Hughes and Joba and the way they have thus far not panned out – what gives you confidence that two pitchers going through much the same process led by many of the same people will exhibit different results?
Cash drafted Ian Kennedy…….he’s pretty good
LGY December 15th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
Gotta love professional athletes. In April Shawne Williams says he doesn’t care about the money or years. Just wants to be back with the Knicks because they were the only team in the league willing to give him a second chance.
Today he signs with the Nets for the exact same money the Knicks offered.
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He’s got a chance to start at the 3 with the Nets – no chance of that with the Knicks.
That said – I’m more concerned with finding an actual PG than a bench shooter.
Wonder if now that they have CP3 the Clippers will waive/trade Billups.
blake December 15th, 2011 at 12:30 pm
Cash drafted Ian Kennedy…….he’s pretty good
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Cash drafted an NL pitcher to an AL East team – it was a stupid pick. Best thing about Kennedy is that he helped land Granderson.
# Chip December 15th, 2011 at 12:30 pm
LGY December 15th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
Gotta love professional athletes. In April Shawne Williams says he doesn’t care about the money or years. Just wants to be back with the Knicks because they were the only team in the league willing to give him a second chance.
Today he signs with the Nets for the exact same money the Knicks offered.
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He’s got a chance to start at the 3 with the Nets – no chance of that with the Knicks.
That said – I’m more concerned with finding an actual PG than a bench shooter.
Wonder if now that they have CP3 the Clippers will waive/trade Billups.
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There is a thought that Billups will play the SG position.
“Cash drafted an NL pitcher to an AL East team –it was a stupid pick. Best thing about Kennedy is that he helped land Granderson.”
Hogwash
The “NL pitcher” is a myth.
lol ok here we go…
What exactly is an “NL pitcher” as defined above?
blake December 15th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
The “NL pitcher” is a myth.
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if you say so.
Irreverent Discourse December 15th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
lol ok here we go…
What exactly is an “NL pitcher” as defined above?
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We’ve been having this fight for a week – do we need to rehash it?
Wonder if now that they have CP3 the Clippers will waive/trade Billups
========================
Clips say no for now. Wouldn’t matter for the Knicks anyway. Because they used to amnesty clause to waive him, he is precluded from rejoining the team before 7/1/2012.
December 21, 2012 – the day the ham fights back.
Why don’t they count?
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Because international free agents are just that free agents. They aren’t counted as being drafted
Well, for one thing, I do believe that Hughes/Joba/IPK were the first wave of the new thought process and in way they were guinea pigs. Not fair, certainly.
For another thing, circumstances were much different 4 years ago.
I hate to rehash the past, but all three zoomed through the minor leagues and blew everyone away, that includes IPK. All three showed incredible talent when they first pitched up here. Hughes was on the way to a no-hitter; Joba was amazing and continued to be amazing until he got hurt in Texas; IPK had a great start in September 2007, but struggled in early 2008. He also had an aneurysm that we was coming back from successfully when he was traded. If Granderson wasn’t available, IPK is still here, I believe.
Hughes was brought up as a last resort – Cashman fought it as long as he could. I seriously don’t want go through the scenario that led to that call-up, suffice to say almost every starting pitcher got injured, and then the replacements either got injured or gave up 4 consecutive HRs.
This is a long-winded way of saying that I don’t think the Yankees did as bad a job as they get blamed for. Could things have gone better? Yes.
But life experiences have taught me that even when you give your best efforts, things can go wrong.
Extra E is going to be seriously exposed in a starting role especially out of D’antoni’s system.
I will say this – in fairness to the Kennedy pick – there weren’t that many placers picked between Kennedy and Joba who are any good. Daniel Bard and Chris Cohglan are probably the only two I would have taken ahead of Kennedy.
Though the fact that Chris Perez who is a more than useful RP was taken one pick after Joba (can’t stay healthy) Chamberlain is a tad annoying.
Great – now I’m going to be annoyed for the rest of the day that instead of Kennedy and Chamberlain the Yankees could have had Bard and Perez.
“Because international free agents are just that free agents. They aren’t counted as being drafted”
No…..but its still talent evaluation. Drafting a 17 year old kid from the DR isn’t the same thing as signing an established big leaguer. The Yanks have to make up for where they get to draft in the international market……they aren’t getting the Verlander and Evan Longoria’s in the draft…….now obviously some star players come from later rounds ……but that’s much harder to predict and requires a bit of luck as well.
Signing a 17 year old kid I should say.
dogface December 15th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
Wonder if now that they have CP3 the Clippers will waive/trade Billups
========================
Clips say no for now. Wouldn’t matter for the Knicks anyway. Because they used to amnesty clause to waive him, he is precluded from rejoining the team before 7/1/2012.
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Didn’t know that – thanks.
Guess it is Baron Davis and wait for him to get his back healthy…sigh.
blake -
And a huge scouting department that will travel to the not-so-usual places to find prospects.
And I’m hoping this is where the Yankees beef up the organization. Though, listening to Cashman, it sounds like they’re on this and don’t really need us to tell ‘em.
LGY December 15th, 2011 at 12:41 pm
Extra E is going to be seriously exposed in a starting role especially out of D’antoni’s system.
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Well the bigger issue with him will be whether or not teams will respect Brook enough inside to leave him open outside for 3′s – which I don’t think will be the case. Lopez is a nice player, but doesn’t demand the double like Amar’e
Villa Nova-Ya December 15th, 2011 at 12:46 pm
blake -
And a huge scouting department that will travel to the not-so-usual places to find prospects.
And I’m hoping this is where the Yankees beef up the organization. Though, listening to Cashman, it sounds like they’re on this and don’t really need us to tell ‘em.
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I’m guessing that Cashman and co. don’t really need us to tell them how to do much of anything.
The Yanks have the most talent in their system that they’ve had since probably the early 90s. That doesn’t mean they will all pan out of course but they’ve been doing a nice job in the draft the last few years based on where they get to pick ………
Chip -
You’d never guess that from some of the comments here from time to time.
Thought you guys hammered out that a NL Pitcher coming over to the AL has an Increased ERA of roughly .60? That being the case, the NL Pitcher label is valid.
The postion that the Yanks are probably in most need of going forward is SS.
Jeter can’t last forever and there just is such a lack of qualify at the position across the game……the hope is that Culver can be the answer….but he’s still so far away.
They have some good outfield prospects and could strengthen that this winter….they have the catching pipeline and a lot of good arms in the organization.
Finding that next everyday SS is going to be a challenge…….
“Thought you guys hammered out that a NL Pitcher coming over to the AL has an Increased ERA of roughly .60? That being the case, the NL Pitcher label is valid.”
AL teams score more runs in general……having a .60 higher era doesn’t mean you’re a worse pitcher……it just means you don’t get to face the pitcher 3 times.
re: Nakajima sign-and-trade
If Lowrie + Weiland = Melancon…
Does Nakajima + Warren = O’Flaherty. The Braves have been shopping for a shortstop (Nunez). Maybe they would take Nakajima+ and give us a late-game reliever comparable to Melancon?
Foxsports:
Anyway, a sign-and-trade sounds like a wonderful idea, but we have to remember that Nakajima probably has very little trade value. I doubt the Yankees aren’t going to be able to flip him for a starting pitcher or anything substantial like that. Rosenthal says the Giants and Cubs have interest in trading for him, but apparently not enough interest to bid more than $2.5M during the posting process. Jed Lowrie is a decent comp as a middle infielder with three years of contractual control and questions about his game (defense, ability to hit righties, health), and he got traded for a middle reliever yesterday. Not even straight-up either; he had to be paired with an okay-ish pitching prospect. That’s basically our benchmark for a Nakajima trade, which means he’d likely have to be the second or third piece in a package of players if the Yankees want to receive anything meaningful.
blake December 15th, 2011 at 12:48 pm
The Yanks have the most talent in their system that they’ve had since probably the early 90s. That doesn’t mean they will all pan out of course but they’ve been doing a nice job in the draft the last few years based on where they get to pick ………
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Issue I have is that I worry they don’t know what to do with it. Cashman has in some cases held onto bad prospects too long (Brackman) and in other cases given up on them too soon (Tabata)
He’s made three major trades the last few years. One has been a success (Granderson) and the other two have been epic fails (Nady/Marte and Javy).
He has watched the last two years as Nolan Ryan has developed a winning pitching staff by creating the organizational philosophy of letting pitchers pitch and each year has gotten more and more conservative with how much he lets his prized pitchers throw. He wraps them in more bubble wrap than a crystal bowl. He’s seen, within his own organization, that the pitchers who pitch more tend to progress better (Nova vs. Hughes/Joba) yet refuses to apply that to his top guys.
I have more faith in Phelps and Warren becoming impact major leaguers than I do in Betances and Banuelos simply because the former are allowed to work more than the latter.
In terms of position players – he’s drafted head scratchers in Culver and Bichette – he might have an impact bat in Montero but he seemed terrified to let the team call him up last year when there was clearly a need (especially when Martin got hurt). He may have something special brewing in the lower minors with OFs like Mesa, Almonte, Heathcott and Williams – but those guys are all so far away that their career paths can’t even be fathomed let alone projected with any hopes of accuracy.
Outside of Montero – the most impact minor league bats that could be looked upon to help this club are Justin Maxwell, Brandon Laird and Corban Joseph – the two last ones still having to prove that they can hit at the AAA level let alone the ML level.
My point in all of this is that having the talent is great – and of course – we all know that not all of it will reach the majors – but are the Yankees adding to the attricion rate of minor leaguers by doing a subpar job of identifying and developing the true talent within their own organization?
Thought you guys hammered out that a NL Pitcher coming over to the AL has an Increased ERA of roughly .60? That being the case, the NL Pitcher label is valid.
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Add .6 to Kennedy’s ERA, he’d be one of the best pitchers we could run out. He gained velocity, doesnt walk people, has good breaking stuff. He missed his shot with the yankees because he had that injury in 09 when he definitely would have been called up.
just sold some collectables to a guy who threw in a bunch of baseball cards on his end. most of them are from 1989, of the yankees i got 2 carlos may’s, an al leiter, and there was also a 1977 paul blair.
Any pitcher in the game will likely have better numbers in the NL because they aren’t facing the DH…….that doesn’t mean they are any less successful for their club…..because their team gets to use the DH as well
Thought you guys hammered out that a NL Pitcher coming over to the AL has an Increased ERA of roughly .60? That being the case, the NL Pitcher label is valid.
================================
These two conclusions aren’t mutually exclusive.
Finding a SS is NO big deal. Finding another position for Jeet is the Much tougher challenge.
-DOGGY-
“What we have here is falure to communicate”
Hey LGY sounds like the Nets are adding another Williams to the mix.. Shawne Williams chose Nets over Knicks.. I don’t get to say that too often
What would you rather have in the Yankees org right now? IPK, Vizcaino + Haren? Or Joba + Hughes?
I’m Not saying Kennedy is good or bad, simply that the numbers validate the label of NL Pitcher. Case Closed…………………Next on the docket?
I’d rather have IPK, Vizcaino and Haren..
CC
Haren
IPK
Nova
Vizcaino
Banuelos
that the pitchers who pitch more tend to progress better (Nova vs. Hughes/Joba) yet refuses to apply that to his top guys.
I have more faith in Phelps and Warren becoming impact major leaguers than I do in Betances and Banuelos simply because the former are allowed to work more than the latter.
–
This doesnt make sense because Nova has followed the same progression that Hughes/Joba were put on. 148->139->180->180.
In terms of position players – he’s drafted head scratchers in Culver and Bichette
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The early returns on Bichette Jr have been pretty great.
Betances and Banuelos have had to deal with injury that has kept their innings down… its nothing to do with philosophy.
Jerkface December 15th, 2011 at 1:03 pm
Thought you guys hammered out that a NL Pitcher coming over to the AL has an Increased ERA of roughly .60? That being the case, the NL Pitcher label is valid.
–
Add .6 to Kennedy’s ERA, he’d be one of the best pitchers we could run out. He gained velocity, doesnt walk people, has good breaking stuff. He missed his shot with the yankees because he had that injury in 09 when he definitely would have been called up.
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Again this goes (for me anyway) back to “stats can only tell you so much”
Kennedy currently pitches in the NL West in larger/more forgiving ball parks. That dynamic, coupled with the fact that there’s only really three or four impact bats in his divsion that aren’t on his team (Kemp & Eithier, Tulo and Cargo) may breed confidence in him to throw more strikes and not walk hitters.
Put him in a smaller park, Fenway, Camden, Yankee Stadium – and have him face on a regular basis the likes of Longoria, Ortiz, Pedroia, A-Gone, Bautista even Ellsbury and Mark Reynolds – and that confidence in pitching to contact may not exist – walk rate goes up, IP goes down, fly balls that die in the OF turn into doubles off the wall or home runs over it.
So for all we know Kennedy might have turned into an outstanding pitcher for the Yankees or for all we know he might have been exactly the pitcher he was when he first came up – timid and trying to get major league hitters to chase the same garbage he was getting minor leaguers out with – we don’t and won’t know for sure. But if the question is whether or not I would still do the Granderson deal – the answer is yup…every day of the week.
Bichette Jr. killed GCL which is nice but doesn’t really mean a thing
Jerkface December 15th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
Betances and Banuelos have had to deal with injury that has kept their innings down… its nothing to do with philosophy.
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Banuelos was shut down for what 10 days because of a blister – that’s babying – and that’s an organizational decision.
Hey Chip do you realize that stats also can adjust for park and league factors?
Banuelos was shut down for what 10 days because of a blister – that’s babying – and that’s an organizational decision.
–
Pitchers get shut down for blisters in every organization, because you need your fingers to pitch?? He also lost time to appendicitis.
Jerkface December 15th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
Betances and Banuelos have had to deal with injury that has kept their innings down… its nothing to do with philosophy.
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and – if you continue to shut down these guys when they get minor dings (as the Yankees have) you can’t expect them to be able to differentiate when they get to the majors between the minor aches and pains that come from a full season’s work load and a serious injury – so you wind up with guys who either are soft or who do more damage to themselves because they think what they’re feeling is normal.
Patrick December 15th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Hey Chip do you realize that stats also can adjust for park and league factors?
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I do realize that Patrick. But do you accept that an individual pitcher’s approach and level of confidence may be altered based on his surroundings and opponents?
i really dont want to hear people complaining about the yankees letting ipk go. everyone on here wanted the kid thrown out with the garbage when he was here, there wasn’t a peep made about losing his talent when he was traded. let’s also remember that he was part of the deal that brought curtis granderson here, and he appears to be well on his way to being a core player for the yankees.
Find better examples of Betances and Banuelos getting shut down for ‘minor dings’. Your argument lacks merit right now. You’re basically making stuff up.
i really dont want to hear people complaining about the yankees letting ipk go. everyone on here wanted the kid thrown out with the garbage when he was here, there wasn’t a peep made about losing his talent when he was traded. let’s also remember that he was part of the deal that brought curtis granderson here, and he appears to be well on his way to being a core player for the yankees.
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I like the Grandyman trade, but please don’t pull this lohud fallacy stuff. IPK wasn’t universally derided. Some people stuck up for him. Some thought he would still be good. It is unfortunate that his yankee window of opportunity coincided with a major injury and unlike Hughes he did not receive unlimited get out of jail free cards so he was dealt.
Brett –
Give me:
CC
Haren
Hughes
Nova
Burnett
I would still trade Kennedy and would have, in a second, have done the Haren deal.
All those bats, and somehow the AL loses the World Series back-to-back. What’s that tell ya about the Rangers and media darling Washington.
I do realize that Patrick. But do you accept that an individual pitcher’s approach and level of confidence may be altered based on his surroundings and opponents?
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Ahh yes but the stats that regulate for park and league factors are based on what all pitchers have done in the past. Are you saying IPK is the only pitcher that would ever have emotions or whatever effect his performance? You are just being disagreeable for no reason right now, IPK would easily be the second best pitcher on the team right now.
i stuck up for ipk and was universally shot down by just about everyone on here. and still, it was a great trade the yankees made even for the one or two who thought kennedy would do well, so its really a non-issue. but dont pretend there wasnt almost unanimous contempt for him, by the time he left he was just below idle and shades on the list of hated yankees.
Y’s Guy -
NOT everyone. I had always been one of his biggest supporters. So don’t lump everyone together.
IPK was asked for by D’Backs. And the situation was the right one so he was dealt. I am happy with that trade btw, and would have been happy with it if it was Hughes instead of IPK.
Which is not to say I wish it was Hughes instead of IPK, just that if it was Hughes I’d have been no less happy with the trade.
It’s true there were maybe a handful of us that supported IPK, though. The rest wanted him run out of town on a rail.
Jerkface December 15th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
Find better examples of Betances and Banuelos getting shut down for ‘minor dings’. Your argument lacks merit right now. You’re basically making stuff up.
———–
While I won’t call any surgery a “minor ding” I will suggest that shutting him down for an entire season due to an appendectomy seems like being over protective to me – now maybe there were complications – I don’t know – but that’s usually a 10 day type thing – not a 6 month recovery time.
and in this article http://www.yankeeanalysts.com/.....tart-28563
you have both Betances and Baneulos on the DL with a blister – I know the minor league DL is only 7 days and it could have just been procedural to open up a roster spot…but come on.
“… what gives you confidence that two pitchers going through much the same process led by many of the same people will exhibit different results?”
Practice makes perfect with raising kids, making pancakes and making prospects into pitchers.
My appendix just burst!
Suck it up kid, that’s just a minor ding. Now go out and pitch a complete game or you will never make the majors!
Patrick December 15th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
I do realize that Patrick. But do you accept that an individual pitcher’s approach and level of confidence may be altered based on his surroundings and opponents?
—
Ahh yes but the stats that regulate for park and league factors are based on what all pitchers have done in the past. Are you saying IPK is the only pitcher that would ever have emotions or whatever effect his performance? You are just being disagreeable for no reason right now, IPK would easily be the second best pitcher on the team right now.
———–
No I am saying that to get a mean average you accept that there are extremes on both sides that help you arrive at that number.
Based on the kind of pitcher I viewed Kennedy to be – I think he would have been on the high side of those results.
Patrick December 15th, 2011 at 1:27 pm
My appendix just burst!
Suck it up kid, that’s just a minor ding. Now go out and pitch a complete game or you will never make the majors!
————
I’m not saying it was minor – I’m saying missing an entire season for it is extreme. Matt Holliday has his out and missed what – a week?
While I won’t call any surgery a “minor ding” I will suggest that shutting him down for an entire season due to an appendectomy seems like being over protective to me – now maybe there were complications – I don’t know – but that’s usually a 10 day type thing – not a 6 month recovery time.
and in this article http://www.yankeeanalysts.com/…..tart-28563
you have both Betances and Baneulos on the DL with a blister – I know the minor league DL is only 7 days and it could have just been procedural to open up a roster spot…but come on.
–
Banuelos missed the beginning of a season, not a whole one. Betances missed huge chunks of 2009 and 2010 with elbow surgery and the yankees still jumped his innings up by 50 this year! Pitchers can’t pitch with blisters if it is on their fingers which control their pitches. Major league pitchers get shut down for that.
Theres about zero babying going on. Phelps and Warren pitch innings because they havent had major surgery. And even Phelps only got 110 last year!
Jerkface —
Totally agree. I mentioned here I was disappointed to give up the kids in the Granderson trade… ALL of them. but I supported the trade and continue to now.
As for Kennedylast season… 4 starts vs AL lineups… 5.27… vs NL Lineups 2.57
So in other words, Kennedy wouldn’t succeed on the Yankees because you arbitrarily deem his personality unfit for it? Why are we even discussing this if you are going to bust out this kind of argument? I arbitrarily just decided that Kennedy would actually be the greatest pitcher of all time if he had stayed on the Yankees, my intuition just says it to be so. Walter Johnson 2.0. You can’t argue because I feel in my gut that it’s true.
Ys Guy December 15th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
i really dont want to hear people complaining about the yankees letting ipk go. everyone on here wanted the kid thrown out with the garbage when he was here, there wasn’t a peep made about losing his talent when he was traded. let’s also remember that he was part of the deal that brought curtis granderson here, and he appears to be well on his way to being a core player for the yankees.
—————
and if Joba does end up being the next great closer of the Yankees you’ll be hard pressed to find a single lohuder who would be willing to admit he was in the group that thought Joba should be a starter.
For the record – I’m in the group that thinks if Joba ever becomes an impact major leaguer it will be for a different organization.
Also about the Kennedy trade. I don’t regret it because we got Curtis Granderson back BUT any good trade has to hurt a little for both sides. I liked Kennedy when he was a Yankee and was sad to see him go. I know sometimes on this blog it feels like everyone is attacking you but that’s not the case Ys Guy, there were plenty of us still optimistic about Kennedy.
For the record – I’m in the group that thinks if Joba ever becomes an impact major leaguer it will be for a different organization.
—————————————-
I’m right there with you
you’ll be hard pressed to find a single lohuder who would be willing to admit he was in the group that thought Joba should be a starter.
–
I’ll be there, front and center.
Patrick December 15th, 2011 at 1:30 pm
So in other words, Kennedy wouldn’t succeed on the Yankees because you arbitrarily deem his personality unfit for it? Why are we even discussing this if you are going to bust out this kind of argument? I arbitrarily just decided that Kennedy would actually be the greatest pitcher of all time if he had stayed on the Yankees, my intuition just says it to be so. Walter Johnson 2.0. You can’t argue because I feel in my gut that it’s true.
—————
No what I actually said was So for all we know Kennedy might have turned into an outstanding pitcher for the Yankees or for all we know he might have been exactly the pitcher he was when he first came up – timid and trying to get major league hitters to chase the same garbage he was getting minor leaguers out with – we don’t and won’t know for sure. But if the question is whether or not I would still do the Granderson deal – the answer is yup…every day of the week.
Patrick – Why are we even discussing this if you are going to bust out this kind of argument?
He basically pulled the same thing yesterday. When that’s the only leg you can stand on, the argument is over :p
Chip – It sounds like you said exactly what patrick said you did.
I’ll be there, front and center.
—
Same…
# Jerkface December 15th, 2011 at 1:34 pm
you’ll be hard pressed to find a single lohuder who would be willing to admit he was in the group that thought Joba should be a starter.
–
I’ll be there, front and center.
—————
So will I…loud and clear
Me too, horse and jockey.
I would do the Granderson trade again given the chance…..but several folks here (me included ) really hated to lose IPK and thought at the time that loss would be greater than Jackson.
Also….those who think Kennedy is an” NL pitcher” who wouldnt have success in the AL east clearly have t seen him pitch recently. He’s added velocity, has terrific command and a great CU…..he’d have pushed for 20 wins with the Yanks last year as well because although his ERA would have been a little higher…….he would have has a much better offense behind him.
Chip …
You pose the discussion as “we don’t know if Kennedy would have been an outstanding pitcher if he had stayed or if he would have continued sucking and is only good now because he’s in the NL” then you answer that by saying “my personal assessment of his personality is that the latter is true”. Well I am saying my personal assessement of his personality indicates the former is true. Where does this leave us? Do you see why you ahve to argue with facts and not BS intuition blarhbal;kjdfal;s
Irreverent Discourse December 15th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
Chip – It sounds like you said exactly what patrick said you did.
———–
No, Patrick’s supposed point is that Ian Kennedy would be as good for the Yankees as he is for Arizona.
My point is that, based on what he was when he was with the Yankees, I find that extremely hard to believe, but I’ll allow it as a possibility – but that in either case – even knowing what kind of pitcher he has become in Arizona and what the current Yankee needs are, I would rather have Granderson than take the risk that Kennedy would have remained a timid pitcher who tried to live on the corners as he did when he first came up with the Yankees.
Kennedy had one bad game agianst the AL last season – on July 3 versus Oakland, 7 runs in 5.2 innings. The rest of his outings vs AL were fine.
Chip – No, that was not his point at all. And that wasn’t the discussion you were having either.
Everbody seems to like Granderson and the deal, but if at the time of the trade Grandy was making\$$$ what his 2012 salary will be, do you think Cashman does that deal? NO WAY.
Chip – You are entirely too obsessed with this “you can’t know every single factor in the world” nonsense. When you get over that, we’ll get into more discussions.
If all you can bring the the table is “well i don’t know because you can’t know” then kindly assume we know that you don’t know.
The NL and AL all get players from the same place…..it goes in cycles and for awhile there the AL was the better league…..its much closer now in talent and you coukd argue there might even be more young talent in the NL right now.
Pitchers in the AL have worse numbers primarily as a factor of having to face real hitters instead of pitchers and washed up pinch hitters.
As for a timid start – check his numbers as a September call-up in 2007. Not so timid.
Have no idea what happened in spring of 2008, but there was a reason the Yankees decided to take the risk and put him in the rotation.
Patrick December 15th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
Chip …
You pose the discussion as “we don’t know if Kennedy would have been an outstanding pitcher if he had stayed or if he would have continued sucking and is only good now because he’s in the NL” then you answer that by saying “my personal assessment of his personality is that the latter is true”. Well I am saying my personal assessement of his personality indicates the former is true. Where does this leave us? Do you see why you ahve to argue with facts and not BS intuition
———-
Where it leaves us is right where I said it leaves us – with an unprovable theory. For all your statistical analysis you have absolutely no way of knowing how Kennedy would have developed had he remained in the Yankee organization. All you know for sure is what happened when he got to Arizona.
You can look at the results all you want – but unless you know what accounted for those results you can’t formulate a conclusion that says with certainty that they would have been achieved under different circumstances.
Forget ballpark adjustments, forget league adjustments – it could have been as simple as a different pitching coach in Arizona noticing a flaw that went unnoticed by the Yankees. Arizona’s strength coach might have a different program than the Yankees do and that could have factored in.
There are just too many variables going from one organization to another to account for them all.
If the Yankees were better at evaluated their own talent, they would have traded Hughes in place of IPK in the Granderson deal and Betances in place of Vizcaino in the Vazquez deal. And they would not have hesitated to trade Joba and Nova in the Haren deal. The chances of any team doing the right thing all of the time are basically zero but it’s still nice to fantasize life with this staff:
CC
Haren
IPK
Vizcaino
Banuelos
Burnett
I’ve always felt like the organization has overrated Hughes and failed to sell-high on guys like Joba and Brett Gardner. Then they turn around and short guys like IPK and Melancon.
But Granderson wasn’t making that money then. That’s part of why it was a good deal for the Yankees.
*evaluating
Holy crap Chip you can’t be serious
Why do we even have stats lets throw them out the window! Why did Pujols get $250 million from the Angels if we can’t trust any statistics? I mean you can’t know 100% that he’s going to do well anywhere but St. Louis. Maybe he’s a wizard and his circle of power is buried underneath st. louis, if he moves anywhere else he can’t hit a baseball!
Why did the Yankees just extend CC Sabathia, what if Burger king discontinues the BK stacker, CC could have a secret medical condition and the BK stacker is the only cure.
Mariano Rivera might actually be dragonborn and he moves his cutter with a dragon shout and now that he got vocal cord surgery his power is gone!
2012 is coming, the world could end why don’t the Yankees blow up the team and turn the stadium into a disco roller rink but with ferarris that they drive around in circles with dubstep playing on the stadium speakers. YOU JUST NEVER KNOW CHIP YOU CAN”T ACCOUNT FOR EVERY POSSIBILITY THIS COULD HAPPEN DUDE YOU JUST DONT KNOW
Seriously Chip, you’ve gone off the deep end this week.
Irreverent Discourse December 15th, 2011 at 1:44 pm
Chip – You are entirely too obsessed with this “you can’t know every single factor in the world” nonsense. When you get over that, we’ll get into more discussions.
If all you can bring the the table is “well i don’t know because you can’t know” then kindly assume we know that you don’t know.
——————–
How is that nonsense?
Look at it this way – if the factors I brought up don’t matter – then why do teams replace coaching staffs?
If your conclusion – that Ian Kennedy’s success was based on maturation nothing more – then you are discounting the need for a pitching coach at any point in Kennedy’s development after he first learned how to throw his current array of pitches.
You guys are looking at possibly trading players based on their talent and or ceilings. The huge factor with Cashman now is $$$$. 2014 has changed the prism through which you gotta view all roster additions.
Also…
Why did the Yankees just extend CC Sabathia, what if Burger king discontinues the BK stacker, CC could have a secret medical condition and the BK stacker is the only cure.
Hilarious.
Seriously Chip, you’ve gone off the deep end this week.
—
I think he’s brought me with him
I think a better question might be…….would the Yankees be a better team now had they signed Holliday instead of making the Granderson trade?
Is Holliday, Jackson, Kennedy, and Coke > Granderson alone? With hindsight knowledge Id say that would have been preferable because Coke coukd still be in their pen, IPK would be in the rotation, and they coukd have traded either Jackson or Gardner for something else…….but that’s looking back knowing what happened.
Chip – I’m not discounting anything, you keep telling us we are. Get off your horse, your opinion is not the almighty answer, especially in spite of stats that say otherwise.
I can’t speak for patrick, but when i do stats analysis of a player, all of your “BS” factors have already been considered.
Why do people ignore that Holliday has been questionable in the post-season?
Villa – Because that means very little.
One thing is certain, that supposedly weak and inferior NL pitching has looked pretty damn good in late Octobers in recent years………Villa Nova Ya…….Ian Kennedy is going to be a perennial 15-16 game winner for years to come……Arizona demanded him in the trade or no deal……
Patrick December 15th, 2011 at 1:50 pm
Holy crap Chip you can’t be serious
Why do we even have stats lets throw them out the window! Why did Pujols get $250 million from the Angels if we can’t trust any statistics? I mean you can’t know 100% that he’s going to do well anywhere but St. Louis. Maybe he’s a wizard and his circle of power is buried underneath st. louis, if he moves anywhere else he can’t hit a baseball!
Why did the Yankees just extend CC Sabathia, what if Burger king discontinues the BK stacker, CC could have a secret medical condition and the BK stacker is the only cure.
Mariano Rivera might actually be dragonborn and he moves his cutter with a dragon shout and now that he got vocal cord surgery his power is gone!
2012 is coming, the world could end why don’t the Yankees blow up the team and turn the stadium into a disco roller rink but with ferarris that they drive around in circles with dubstep playing on the stadium speakers. YOU JUST NEVER KNOW CHIP YOU CAN”T ACCOUNT FOR EVERY POSSIBILITY THIS COULD HAPPEN DUDE YOU JUST DONT KNOW
——————-
I’ll try this again – slower though.
Statistics are useful for supporting a hypothesis but to base a conclusion on statistics alone, when there are literally thousands of non-quantifiable factors that go into it is foolish.
Your argument is that Ian Kennedy would have become the same pitcher that he is now had he never been traded.
You have no way to back up that theory. None. You can point to his success in Arizona and say “he could have done that in New York”
Just as I have no way to disprove it. I could point to comperable pitchers who remained with the Yankees and their failings and say “No, he probably wouldn’t have.”
Both arguments have merit
Villa A simple question… Which do you think is a more useful sample for Holliday when determining his future success…
his 4829 plate appearances in the regular season that say he’s a .315/.388/.541 hitter, or his 122 plate appearances in the playoffs that say he’s a .278/.361/.500 hitter?
Chip – I’ll try this again – slower though.
I stopped reading right there, have a nice day.
You have no way to back up that theory. None.
You have no way of disproving that theory.
None.
See, we can all play this stupid game you’re playing.
-BLAKE-
You gotta consider maybe Holliday did NOT wanna play for the Yanks or an AL team? Lee went that route.
I lied, I read it anyway
Your argument has very little merit because it’s not based on anything but conjecture. Kennedy got better. That is a fact. Now you have to deal with the fact that he is a better pitcher than he was when he left. He could have become this pitcher for any myriad of reasons, but there is no reason to suspect it was because he left NY. He was supposed to be this good, he got called up way too early and got injured for the Yankees. His time here was largely meaningless.
Chip,
The difference is, I actually DO have something to back it up. Fortunately for us, time didn’t stop in 2009.
194 IP, 3.80 ERA
222 IP, 2.88 ERA
Well gee whiz, looks like a young pitcher is improving as he gets more experience! What a shock. Arizona must be a special place indeed for this to occur. It’s not like young pitchers don’t improve if they are on other teams.
If his stats had stayed the same or gotten worse you’d have a point. Right now you are being pessimistic for literally nothing to back it up aside from your own biased opinion.
The reports were that Holliday did want to be a Yankee ……they thought 7/120 was too much money and be stayed in St. Louis. In light of some of the contracts from the last two years……that would have been a discount for him.
Im not knocking the Granderson trade…..they got an MVP candidate…..but had he not fixed his swing with K Long it would have been a terrible decision given they coukd have just signed Holliday for the money…….and still they would have all the players they traded has they done that.
but had he not fixed his swing with K Long
To be fair, I think they were under the impression they were getting the “fixed swing” Granderson from the get-go.
blake,
At the time the Yanks were just coming off a world series win and the signings of huge contracts with AJ, CC and Tex. Even though Holliday made a ton of sense I think the Yankees probably considered it overkill to go get him. Looking back, yeah you are right, it would have been a great fit.