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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


The give and take of young pitching

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 22, 2011 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Last night, the White Sox stopped shopping John Danks and locked him into a five-year contract. Four days before that, the Reds gave up a truck load of young talent to acquire Mat Latos.  One day before that, the Rays signed Matt Moore to an eight-year deal just three regular-season games into his big league career. A week before that, the Diamondbacks gave up a successful first-round draft pick in a trade for Trevor Cahill.

If nothing else, it seems this winter has shown the value of young starters. It’s shown that teams are willing to give them big contracts to stick around, and it’s shown that teams are willing to give up massive amounts of talent to acquire them. Two years ago, the Giants won the World Series on the strength of young, home grown pitching, and it seems the baseball world was paying attention.

So how would you have the Yankees approach this market?

Brian Cashman believes that pitching is the “key to the kingdom,” but he’s seen big money wasted on long-term deals with aging starters. He’s also seen big money wasted on unproven international talent. And although the Yankees have the prospects to trade for an elite young pitcher, Cashman seems worried about losing one or two of his own elite young pitchers in the process.

It’s an awkward balance between proven and unproven, between potential and uncertainty. In Manny Banuelos, the Yankees might have their own Gio Gonzalez. In Dellin Betances, they might have their own Mat Latos.

They might also have another Brien Taylor and another Andrew Brackman.

So if you were Cashman, which path would you prefer? Would you shoot for the stars and try to develop your own, or would you give up future potential for immediate, more proven gains?

Just a quick reminder, I’m hosting a chat today at noon. Stop by if you can.

 
 

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192 Responses to “The give and take of young pitching”

  1. Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 9:04 am

    GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 8:58 am

    I wonder how much JoAnna paid for a new ?clutch bat? for Nick?

    ***************

    LOL

    I wonder where one would find a “clutch bat” ;)

  2. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:04 am

    Chad-

    IMO it is not an “either/or” choice.

    As CB pointed out last night a lot of it is about talent evaluation.

    I think the Yankees should try their darndest to develop Pitching from within but if they see a chance to acquire a “stud” then maybe they fork over some of that talent.

    there are 2 roads that lead to tipperary.

    neither should be neglected IMO.

    :)

  3. Yankee Trader December 22nd, 2011 at 9:06 am

    I get the feeling Cashman might be more concerned with budget than management. Wants to prove that he can GM with the best of them and not just be the guy who hands out checks?
    ——————————–
    Pat-
    I just don’t agree with that at all. It’s been mentioned before, that the new CBA is enticing the Yankees with some 40M to be under the new threshold of 189M by 2014 for their 40 man roster, which also resets their luxury tax to 17.5% rather than 50% if they go over in 2015. That extra money is what will be available to sign potential 2014 FA’s Cano and Granderson.

  4. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:08 am

    It makes more sense to grown your own and buy what’s actually needed. Can’t afford to buy everyone of them. 1 or 2 buys, two grow your owns and one rookie gamble for the rotation.

  5. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:08 am

    The most valuable asset in baseball right now is a young, cost-controlled proven stud Pitcher.

    That’s Diamond or Platinum.

  6. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:09 am

    GB-

    Growing your own is goooood.

    ;)

  7. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:09 am

    Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 9:04 am
    GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 8:58 am

    I wonder how much JoAnna paid for a new ?clutch bat? for Nick?

    ***************

    LOL

    I wonder where one would find a “clutch bat”

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    According to some on here, every team but the Yankees have them, so, they must be easy and inexpensive to find.

  8. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:11 am

    I’ll look on the internet and see if I can locate the nearest Clutch-Bats-R-Us.

  9. blake December 22nd, 2011 at 9:11 am

    “Blake is still hung over. He didn’t bounce back as well as I did from Danks.”

    More like hung over from a grumpy baby and no sleep I am a little sad about Danks…..because I thought he would have been a good fit IF KW priced him reasonably……he just never did.

  10. Yankee Trader December 22nd, 2011 at 9:12 am

    Chad-

    Great post.

    Now that the Yankees also have some potential position players who could shine in the bigs, plus the home grown pitchers, the Yankees need to keep most of them and bring them up, rather than trade for or sign long term expensive contracts that will cost them dearly by 2014 and beyond.

  11. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:13 am

    MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:09 am
    GB-

    Growing your own is goooood.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Sorry, MTU, but your idea of “grow your own” will get them suspended for 50 games.

  12. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:13 am

    Blake-

    I did too. One of those rare times when kenny DID the fleecing.

    Too bad. Danksy would have looked good in PS.

    Let’s get one or 2 Cuban cigars.

    Get some rest (eventually).

    :)

  13. Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 9:14 am

    Joba in a very sentimental mood this morning ;)

    Joba_62 What’s better than having ur kid get out of the car for school and look at u and say ” I love you”…..NOTHING! #soblessed

  14. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:15 am

    GB-

    I didn’t mean “them”.

    ;)

  15. Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 9:15 am

    GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:11 am
    I?ll look on the internet and see if I can locate the nearest Clutch-Bats-R-Us.

    *******************

    :lol:

  16. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:16 am

    The truth is, growing your own pitchers/players from seedlings is best as long as your team continues to win. If there is a slippage in winning, that’s when you buy new plants and graft them into the rotation.

  17. ac1 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:16 am

    I love the idea that Cash would not make a move, just to prove he can win without big signings.
    Trust me, if the Yankees want a big signing the brass will step in: see R. Soriano.

  18. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 9:16 am

    So, who are you dumping to get Kuroda into the rotation? NY is not going to be able to trade Burnett and dumping Hughes is beyond stupidity. He’s 25 years old, talented and a good part of the future of the rotation. Are you dumping the a pitcher making $5 mil for the same type of pitcher that you’re going to pay $10-$12 mil per for up to 2 years?

    Salary dump AJ or make him/Garcia the long man. The Yankees have been in the market for another starter, why would they do that if they didnt have a plan to actually affect the rotation?

  19. Yankee Trader December 22nd, 2011 at 9:17 am

    Bichette and Santana making the top ten over essentially big league ready arms like David Phelps and Adam Warren (Hector Noesi isn’t eligible) is a bit surprising to me, but it’s not crazy. They topped the Gulf Coast League Top 20 Prospects List back in September, and really the only questions are long-term position (Bichette) and health (Santana). Ravel is reportedly doing well following his brutal and season-ending ankle injury, though he still has a ways to go with his rehab. He is expected to be ready in time for camp though, which is great news. Heathcott was another interesting top ten guy given his continued shoulder problems, but like I said, the tools won out this year.

    From RAB’s-might enjoy the rest of this short article:
    http://riveraveblues.com/2011/.....cts-61381/

  20. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 9:17 am

    And no, sorry, Kuroda and Garcia are not the same type of pitcher.

  21. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:17 am

    MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:15 am
    GB-

    I didn’t mean “them”.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Oh!!! Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning.

  22. upstate kate December 22nd, 2011 at 9:17 am

    check the bat cave

  23. ac1 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:19 am

    Hopefully some of those lower level top prospects make it here this year and some of the upper levels stay healthy for trade bait (ie: Adams)

  24. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:19 am

    GB-

    Sure. Play dumb.

    By the way, you sound your talkin’ about Roses- grafting.

    Too funny.

    :)

  25. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:20 am

    GB-

    Was that “grafting” or “drafting” you were talking about ?

  26. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 9:21 am

    I did too. One of those rare times when kenny DID the fleecing.

    ==========================

    Williams did well on this deal. Seems to me it was the smart thing to do. He obviously wasn’t going to get high end talent for him, so why not sign him to a reasonable deal rather than move him for some lesser guys?

  27. YankeeNiner December 22nd, 2011 at 9:21 am

    I don’t care what the excuses are with Cashman. I think he’s done a significant job in his tenure, but he is very poor at evaluating pitching. There is no argument there. Just look at those free agent misses (Wright, Pavano, Igawa, Burnett…) and his farm jewels Joba, Phil and Kennedy. Not one has measured up to his expectations as a Yankee. But when IPK is let go, he flourishes. Joba is not a starter and never will be. Hughes is soft. I hope he works out.
    So, I would trade Betances or Banuelos and another prospect (Romine, Laird, etc.) — Not mason Williams or Montero — for a proven commodity like Gio Gonzalez. It would be dumb bot to make that trade.

  28. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:21 am

    It’s time the Yankees started weaning fans off of the idea that they need to buy everything when they have ready replacements for their needs.

  29. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:22 am

    DF-

    Yup. Makes all the sense in the World from KW’s POV.

  30. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 9:23 am

    So, I would trade Betances or Banuelos and another prospect (Romine, Laird, etc.) — Not mason Williams or Montero — for a proven commodity like Gio Gonzalez. It would be dumb bot to make that trade.

    But once Cashman makes this trade, isn’t it likely because he mis-evaluated the pitching?

  31. YankeeNiner December 22nd, 2011 at 9:25 am

    Jerkface: No. Becasue Gio has proven he can pitch at this level and his stats prove it. Every MLB team wants a proven lefty with a great strikeout ratio.

  32. Stottlemyre68 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:25 am

    Danks has shown that he can be a good pitcher, but there’s no evidence that he has the potential to be a great one. Montero and Banuelos have so far shown the potential to be great and carried it up to the upper minors and, in Montero’s case, a September call-up. Betances seems a bit further away in terms of development.

    In my view, you shouldn’t trade potentially great for proven good, especially when that potential has made it through the high minors. You consider great for great and good for good, and perhaps when great is so remote that it has a heavy speculative element you might do great for good. Montero has shown that he can learn to raise his game to the next level at every level up to the majors. Are there questions about his defense? Sure, but if he hits up to his potential he will have a place in any lineup, especially with the DH. His attitude? Maybe Jeter/ARod/Cano and perhaps Tony Pena can put their arms around his shoulder and give him a friendly talking to — he’s 21 years old for goodness’ sake. With Banuelos, the biggest risk is the risk that, like any other pitcher, he can get injured. He could be the next Gil Patterson, but Danks could just as easily be the next Don Gullett and he’s nowhere near as good as Gullett was before he got injured. Betances, who’s had surgery already, is a higher injury risk and is more erratic, so the threshold for trading him would be lower — on the other hand, nobody knows the condition of his arm better than the Yankees, so I at least am willing to trust their judgment on this one.

  33. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 9:26 am

    Nova ended the season with a precursor to an elbow injury, Hughes has hardly had any fully healthy seasons in the majors, AJ Burnett is trash, and the Yankees have been very fortunate that CC is a horse that is seemingly immune to injury.

    Need 1 more starter.

  34. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 9:26 am

    I don’t like the whole “I told you so thing” I don’t like it when other people do it and I try to avoid doing it myself.

    That said, for weeks when I was suggesting that the White Sox would be best served by re-signing Danks rather than trading him unless they were getting exactly what they wanted, I was told I was nuts. That they didn’t have the money, that there was no way…on and on it went.

    And so, while petty convention would suggest that I would be well within my rights to issue an “I told you so;” in the spirit of the Holiday Season I will not. What I will do is request that in the future those of you who think you have all the answers may wish to consider the possibility that you are just as clueless as the rest of us and get off your high horses. You have no greater insight into the decision making processes than any one else and simply speaking with arrogance and faux authority does not make your clueless opinions any more valid than anyone else’s clueless opinions.

    I’m betting right now you wish I had just stuck to “I told you so.” :-)

    PS: This is not directed to everyone who disagreed about Danks, the select few know who they are.

  35. Yankee Trader December 22nd, 2011 at 9:26 am

    Latest predictions, as always subject to immediate change:

    Carlos Beltran spurns the better offer from the Blue Jays to stay in the NL and with a city he prefers-St Louis.

    The Nationals finally land a pitcher in Gio Gonzalez.

    Fielder doesn’t get signed until January and for less than what was expected. It won’t be the Mariners.

    Jurrjens does get traded to a team that doesn’t care about the medicals on his right knee.

    The Yankees aren’t done with assembling the team for 2012.

    Have a great day all. Until later. :)

  36. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 9:26 am

    Jerkface: No. Becasue Gio has proven he can pitch at this level and his stats prove it. Every MLB team wants a proven lefty with a great strikeout ratio.

    Burnett, Pavano, and Wright proved they could pitch at this level…

  37. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 9:27 am

    Bob Klapisch
    Sense around MLB is that Wilpons will be out of time unless investors are in place – and ready to infuse $ – by spring training. #Mets

  38. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:27 am

    My Eliot Ness list :

    Montero
    Banuelos
    Betances
    Williams

    (I would trade for them for a young, proven stud pitcher though)

    Everyone else is fair game.

  39. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:29 am

    Other than Baltimore, Gonzalez hasn’t had much luck pitching against the AL East or the Tigers in his career. Not a real comforting thought since that will be nearly half of his starts.

  40. pat December 22nd, 2011 at 9:29 am

    YT

    Won’t be the first time someone hasn’t agreed with me and been wrong. :wink:

    Joel Sherman said the Yankees are concerned about $40M not the Yankees and he has been known to bark up the wrong tree on occasion. I get that restarting the luxury tax clock is a smart money decision but a team with $600M in revenues might look at $40M as spending money to make money too.

  41. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:30 am

    Have a good ‘un YT.

    :)

  42. YankeeNiner December 22nd, 2011 at 9:30 am

    OK. I get it. But, those were free agents. This kid is 20-something and flourishing with a weak line-up backing him up. He could flop like the others, but it’s a risk worth taking. He’s under control until 2015, an easy budget add, and a lefty in stadium that favors LHPs.

    Just saying…

  43. rl1856 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:31 am

    Over the past few years, the Yankees have had a good track record of developing young pitching that has gone on to do well in the ML.

    Robertson
    Nova
    Hughes (teams still salivate over his potential)
    Joba
    Nector Noesi
    Tyler Clippard
    Mark Melancon
    Mike Dunn
    Alfredo Ascevas
    Jeff Karstens

    Notice anything about that list ? 4 of the 9 names are now pitching (well) for other teams.

    In deciding not to trade any of our current prospects, perhaps Cashman is worried about seeing a Yankee prospect develop in another uniform. I know I would be given how many quality arm have been traded away or allowed to leave.

    I would like to see our prospects given a chance to pitch at the ML level. I don’t think all of them will excel, but there is enough quality that more than a few will develop into solid players.

  44. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:32 am

    GG is not stud level IMO.

    He’s very good.

    Stud level is Kershaw, The King, Verlander, etc.

    Therefore, he does not get our “stud” prosepects, i.e. Banuelos, montero, Betances, etc.

    If that is the price forget it.

  45. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 9:33 am

    YankeeNiner December 22nd, 2011 at 9:21 am
    I don’t care what the excuses are with Cashman. I think he’s done a significant job in his tenure, but he is very poor at evaluating pitching. There is no argument there. Just look at those free agent misses (Wright, Pavano, Igawa, Burnett…) and his farm jewels Joba, Phil and Kennedy. Not one has measured up to his expectations as a Yankee. But when IPK is let go, he flourishes. Joba is not a starter and never will be. Hughes is soft. I hope he works out.
    So, I would trade Betances or Banuelos and another prospect (Romine, Laird, etc.) — Not mason Williams or Montero — for a proven commodity like Gio Gonzalez. It would be dumb bot to make that trade.

    —————-

    I tend to agree with the notion that for all the good the Cashman administration has done for the Yankees the evaluation of pitching (both from within and outside the organization) has been attrocious. I don’t think there’s anyone who can look at the number of poor signings, draft picks and poorly developed pitching prospects and see anything different. And it does make me skeptical as to whether or not Betances or Banuelos will live up to their potential.

    And yes, I do put a lot of this on Nardi Contreras – the lead voice in the organization when it comes to all matters pitching – I see nothing but failure on his resume and wonder what he brings to the table that makes Cashman trust him so much.

  46. mick December 22nd, 2011 at 9:35 am

    What I will do is request that in the future those of you who think you have all the answers may wish to consider the possibility that you are just as clueless as the rest of us and get off your high horses.
    ==========================
    Does that include yourself? ;)

    Really though, your Occupy Lohud movement would reduce patronage here by 99%.

  47. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 9:35 am

    Gio can’t pitch outside Oakland. No amount of wishing will change that. Unless the Yankees plan on moving some home games, Gio is a waste of resources.

  48. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 9:36 am

    rl1856 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:31 am
    Over the past few years, the Yankees have had a good track record of developing young pitching that has gone on to do well in the ML.

    Robertson
    Nova
    Hughes (teams still salivate over his potential)
    Joba
    Nector Noesi
    Tyler Clippard
    Mark Melancon
    Mike Dunn
    Alfredo Ascevas
    Jeff Karstens

    Notice anything about that list ? 4 of the 9 names are now pitching (well) for other teams.

    In deciding not to trade any of our current prospects, perhaps Cashman is worried about seeing a Yankee prospect develop in another uniform. I know I would be given how many quality arm have been traded away or allowed to leave.

    I would like to see our prospects given a chance to pitch at the ML level. I don’t think all of them will excel, but there is enough quality that more than a few will develop into solid players.

    —————–

    The other thing you’ll notice about that list is that the majority of the pitchers on it are relievers.

    It is a lot easier to develop a quality relief pitcher than it is to develop a quality starting pitcher.

    The last three starting pitchers who were developed by the Yankees and had any sort of long term success were: CM Wang, Eric Milton and Andy Pettitte.

  49. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 9:36 am

    Trader – I think Beltran would be a better fit in the AL where he could DH… Just sayin’ *cough*getonitcash*cough* :D

    …I don’t even want Beltran that badly I just feel like everyone else on here has someone to pine for so I might as well join the party lol. And saying COLON in big letters all the time might make people thing I have other issues entirely, so I’ll stick with Beltran for now (though I think its highly unlikely).

  50. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 9:37 am

    mick December 22nd, 2011 at 9:35 am
    What I will do is request that in the future those of you who think you have all the answers may wish to consider the possibility that you are just as clueless as the rest of us and get off your high horses.
    ==========================
    Does that include yourself?

    Really though, your Occupy Lohud movement would reduce patronage here by 99%.

    —————

    I full well admit that I have no idea what’s going to happen and so I never rip people who want to present an alternate theory (except you when it comes to the Yankees only carrying 2 catchers ;-) )

  51. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 9:37 am

    This kid is 20-something and flourishing with a weak line-up backing him up

    ==============================

    He’s flourishing in a big time pitcher’s park. Check his splits. Nothing special about him outside of Oakland Alameda County Coliseum.

  52. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:38 am

    Let the Nats give up a quad package of their best young talent for GG.

    Have at it.

    They’re all yours Billy.

    :)

  53. blake December 22nd, 2011 at 9:38 am

    If the Yankees are going to operate in a more conservative and frugal way then there are a couple of things that they should also be doing at the same time IMO.

    1) they should get rid of the no extension policy and operate case by case as every other team does. Operating on a budget and outbidding other clubs for guys as FA’s dont go together. They should try and save money there where appropriate. (Cano).

    2. They should cut bait on expensive players that are drastically underperforming if they can and if they can be replaced more cheaply.

    Operating on a budget is fine…..what doesn’t make sense to me is when you mix and match approaches……if the budget is going to be a set number then try and be more efficient with the payroll so that more quality can be fit in under the number you set….

  54. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 9:39 am

    Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 9:35 am
    Gio can’t pitch outside Oakland. No amount of wishing will change that. Unless the Yankees plan on moving some home games, Gio is a waste of resources.

    —————-

    I don’t know that he can’t pitch outside of Oakland – I just think it’s more likely he would be a solid midrotation guy for the Yankees rather than the top of the rotation guy he appears to be with the A’s.

    That creates a problem since Billy Beane is going to want top of the rotation compensation for him.

  55. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:39 am

    Being a great pitcher doesn’t mean that they’ll be good pitching coaches and being a non-descript pitcher like Rothschilde doesn’t mean he’ll be a lousy pitching coach. Contreras isn’t my idea, but, he’s less of a problem than Billy Conners has been. Conners is on the art Fowler level. Hitting coaches are the same way. If the superstars all made good coaches, Mantle, Aaron, Banks and Mays would all have a stable of batting title winners to their credit.

  56. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 9:40 am

    MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:38 am
    Let the Nats give up a quad package of their best young talent for GG.

    Have at it.

    They’re all yours Billy.

    ————–

    Agreed – and with Danks off the board the price is going to be even higher.

  57. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:42 am

    Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 9:36 am
    Trader – I think Beltran would be a better fit in the AL where he could DH… Just sayin’ *cough*getonitcash*cough*

    …I don’t even want Beltran that badly I just feel like everyone else on here has someone to pine for so I might as well join the party lol. And saying COLON in big letters all the time might make people thing I have other issues entirely, so I’ll stick with Beltran for now (though I think its highly unlikely).

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    So as with bringing in Kuroda, who gets dumped? More importantly, who replaces Beltran when and if he crashes and burns?

  58. blake December 22nd, 2011 at 9:43 am

    “PS: This is not directed to everyone who disagreed about Danks, the select few know who they are.”

    I never disagreed that the White Sox should try to sign him if they couldn’t get what they wanted for him……I just didn’t see Danks taking a deal like that. Reports were that extension talks were going nowhere and the White Sox stink….

  59. 108 stitches December 22nd, 2011 at 9:45 am

    As it stands now, only the TB Rays can come close to the Yankees with young major league ready arms or on the cusp of being so.
    They’ll be reckoned with in the AL East having a possible full year from Longoria, a full year of Desmond Jennings, and B.J. Upton in a contract year. Like the Yankees, they have some flexibility on their roster. With the exception of heavily Boston oriented ESPN, the Yankees and Rays will be 1 & 2 in the AL East.

  60. RayVT December 22nd, 2011 at 9:45 am

    The Yankees are really starting to flex their muscle in a dynamic way. In years past the Yanks were kind of a one headed monster, in that all decisions were made based on a supperior amount on money to spend on FA. It didn’t work real well and yet it did. The Yanks overpaid to get anyone and they were taken to the cleaners on trades or trade proposals because the Yanks had a terrific need to try and win now at all costs.

    Now the brain trust has developed a second head to the monster in that they have developed their own fortune in player development. Their two/three main divisional opponents (RSox, TB, Tor) have flaws.

    1. The RSox have no MiLB system and have a lot of money tied up in their 25/40 man roster with real holes too but their strength is money still.

    2. TB has no money but they have a tremendous Farm system which is their strength. TB’s everyday lineup has holes galore and their weakness of a lack of capital causes them from obtaining their potential.

    3. Toronto has a great MiLB system too and a decent 40 man roster with some stars. The money is coming up more in play as they have potential dollars available, but they lack the main ingredient of a #1 SP & a #1 Closer. Those two spots really are costly and are keeping them down as acquiring them is both expensive in dollars and in tradeable farm qualities.

    You see the Yanks are loaded for bear. They have almost unlimited resources in both money and farm system. A short term reduction in spending will make them even stronger as far as the Luxury Cap goes. The Bronx has a #1 SP and truly 2 other potential #1s in AAA (Banuelos & Betances). Also, the Yankee BP is an example of a luxury of wealth. Some young MLB SP like Hughes/Nova/Noesi are on the cusp of perhaps being #1s or #2s as well. Layered depth at key costly positions – SP, CL, C, CF and even SS make the Yanks very very dangerous. The Yanks can literally pick & choose who they want to add to push an awesome team to an even greater team.

    Can you imagine if the Yanks get Hughes/Nova/Noesi hitting on all cylinders with Banuelos & Betances primed to take their place what the Yanks could obtain in trading one or two of them? It must really be scary for the other GMs what the Yanks are building!

  61. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 9:46 am

    So as with bringing in Kuroda, who gets dumped?

    Why is this always the first question? Is it not completely obvious?

    Burnett/Garcia can be long men. Burnetts contract is not a consideration for how he contribute to the team at this point.
    Hughes/Nova can be sent down to AAA.

    There is nothing blocking Kuroda from the rotation, unless you expect all 4 of those starters to be successful. If they are all successful… how is that a problem? Oh noes! We have too many good starters at the all-star break, woes is me.

  62. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 9:47 am

    COLON!

  63. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 9:48 am

    GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:39 am
    Being a great pitcher doesn’t mean that they’ll be good pitching coaches and being a non-descript pitcher like Rothschilde doesn’t mean he’ll be a lousy pitching coach. Contreras isn’t my idea, but, he’s less of a problem than Billy Conners has been. Conners is on the art Fowler level. Hitting coaches are the same way. If the superstars all made good coaches, Mantle, Aaron, Banks and Mays would all have a stable of batting title winners to their credit.

    ———————-

    I don’t need a former star pitcher to become the Yankee pitching guru – but Contreras hasn’t even been a successful pitching coach.

    He was a minor league pitching coach here – replaced Billy Conners – was fired after one season in favor of Mel – was fired after two seasons by the Mariners and after 3 seasons by the White Sox and then returned to the Yankees in this new role – where it appears the only thing he’s done of note is create the ill-fated “Joba Rules”

    I would much rather the Yankees go out and get a pitching coach with a better track record of success – an older one who maybe doesn’t want to deal with the day-to-day travel and schedule of being with a big league team anymore – and put him in that role. A Leo Mazzone, Rick Peterson type.

  64. mick December 22nd, 2011 at 9:48 am

    Nice post, RayVt.

  65. ac1 December 22nd, 2011 at 9:49 am

    The last three starting pitchers who were developed by the Yankees and had any sort of long term success were: CM Wang, Eric Milton and Andy Pettitte.

    ___

    Ian Kennedy is headed that way in AZ.

    Also this goes to the Yankees not really starting to develop their pitchers again until now.

    Hughes and Joba have had injuries, but i believe teams would take either one in a second.

  66. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 9:52 am

    Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 9:46 am
    So as with bringing in Kuroda, who gets dumped?

    Why is this always the first question? Is it not completely obvious?

    Burnett/Garcia can be long men. Burnetts contract is not a consideration for how he contribute to the team at this point.
    Hughes/Nova can be sent down to AAA.

    There is nothing blocking Kuroda from the rotation, unless you expect all 4 of those starters to be successful. If they are all successful… how is that a problem? Oh noes! We have too many good starters at the all-star break, woes is me.

    ————-

    I believe Hughes is out of minor league options

    I can’t imagine the Yankees would send their second best pitcher from last year (Nova) to the minors (again) or that they would put their 3rd most effective starter from last year (Garcia) in the pen.

    I also find it difficult to believe that the Yankees – given their current economic policies – would view putting $33 million of AJ Burnett in the pen as the 12th man on a 12 man pitching staff as a good use of resources

  67. jacksquat December 22nd, 2011 at 9:52 am

    In Manny Banuelos, the Yankees might have their own Gio Gonzalez.

    No no no. Think Johan Santana.

  68. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 9:52 am

    GB – I don’t think we’ll really get Beltran but if we did I would rotate our OF spots between him, GGBG, and Swish. I’d only take Beltran on a 2 year deal max under the assumption he can slide into Swisher’s spot for a year while the Yanks target other OFers (in prospects/trades/etc). You could maybe get Swish 5-10 games at 1B against RHP to give Tex a rest as well. And I’ve heard people say they wouldnt want Beltran in LF and I see the merit of the argument but it loses a lot of meaning when we ran Jones out there all of last season..

    Colon? Doesn’t seem like you’d really need to make room for him. He could either be a starter or a long reliever and with the staff especially you have to assume you wont have a healthy/effective 5 in CC, AJ, Hughes, Garcia, and Nova for 12 games. Garcia and Hughes in particular I’d think would end up on the DL at some point.

  69. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:55 am

    IMO the Yankees need to improve the way they develop their Pitchers.

    They have the talent in the pipeline. Now all they need is a systematic way to develop it.

    Rothschild is solid at the ML level.

    We need the same quality throughout the MiLB organization.

    We need more Scot Aldred’s and Neil Allen’s.

    To skimp there would be foolish.

    Do it Cash.

    Get the very best for our MiLB system.

  70. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:57 am

    P.S. I know Allen is not with the Yankees.
    He was just an example.

  71. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 9:57 am

    would view putting $33 million of AJ Burnett in the pen as the 12th man on a 12 man pitching staff as a good use of resources

    ====================

    The “good use of resources” horse has left the barn as far as Burnett goes.

  72. upstate kate December 22nd, 2011 at 9:57 am

    Shame
    I will see your COLON! and raise you a GARZA!!!

  73. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 9:59 am

    RayVT -

    I like your post. Gene Michael has always said that there are two types of prospects – those you look at and say “They can help my club by playing for me” and those you look at and say “they can help my club by being traded.” And that a good GM is the one who knows the difference.

    I worry that the current Yankee brain trust is not able to accurately identify the difference.

    Dealing Jose Tabata (and a bunch of back of the rotation/bullpen RHPs) for Xavier Nady and a LOOGY?

    Holding on to Joba Chamberlain (who at the time was an EIG) when he could have netted them Dan Haren?

    Even in the Randy Johnson deal – the Yankees were trying desperately to keep Dioneer Navarro but were willing to include Robinson Cano (thankfully the Dodgers didn’t want a 2nd baseman in the 3 team deal)

    For the record – I have no issue with IPK or Austin Jackson going elsewhere or the inclusion of Vizciano for Javy.

  74. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 10:00 am

    With the HOF voting due any time and the announcements about 2 weeks away, who gets in? I’m going with Larkin, Raines and Bagwell.

    An interesting and strange selection of so called knowledgable minds place votes on the best players not in the HOF. The odd ons are Keith Hernandez receiving more votes than Mattingly, though Mattingly in a shorter career blew Hernandez in most categories. Also, players like Jeff Fassaro, Bill Lee and Todd Worrell received multiple votes and Mel Stottlemyre received none. Those aren’t even the worst names people thought were better.

    http://baseballpastandpresent......ment-19758

  75. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 10:00 am

    Is it time for Pitcher’s and Catcher’s to report yet ?

    :)

  76. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 10:00 am

    I meant 162 games… ugh!

    upstate kate – I’m nervous that you can see my Colon from all the way up there :D …sorry. Feeling silly this morning. I wish we could get Garza but unless Theo really wants to stick it to the Sox I dunno if that’s gonna happen.

  77. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 10:01 am

    MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:55 am
    IMO the Yankees need to improve the way they develop their Pitchers.

    They have the talent in the pipeline. Now all they need is a systematic way to develop it.

    Rothschild is solid at the ML level.

    We need the same quality throughout the MiLB organization.

    We need more Scot Aldred’s and Neil Allen’s.

    To skimp there would be foolish.

    Do it Cash.

    Get the very best for our MiLB system.

    —————–

    I was hoping like mad that the retirement of TLR would open up Dave Duncan to fill just that role.

    Leo Mazzone would be great – but Cash is married to the whole pitch count thing.

    Rick Peterson would fit the bill – or even “promoting” Larry into it and hiring another ML pitching coach would work for me.

  78. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 10:02 am

    “The “good use of resources” horse has left the barn as far as Burnett goes.”

    A-men!

  79. jacksquat December 22nd, 2011 at 10:02 am

    The Mets and Yankees are two of the teams that continue to seek a utility infielder, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com tweets.

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....qus_thread

    Huh? With Nunez and a possible signing of Nakajima? Have they lost faith in Nunez? Trade coming? Heyman is confused?

  80. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 10:02 am

    Time to walk the Mops.

  81. upstate kate December 22nd, 2011 at 10:03 am

    LOL Shame!
    Yeah, I just like Garza, whether he makes sense for the Yankees or not! Luckily there is always FBB.

  82. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:04 am

    Chip – Hughes is not out of options. I looked the other day before I wrote basically the same thing. I think he has 2 left.

    We are not talking about sending down a pitcher that is pitching well. He are talking about the worst pitcher of those 4 being moved out of the rotation for someone like Kuroda.

    If that’s Nova, his performance last year means absolutely nothing if he’s not pitching well this year.

    If that’s Burnett, his contract means nothing in regards to his rotation spot. His contract simply means that he needs to contribute to the major league club in some way, and if that means he has to be the long man, so be it. If he’s the 6th best option and he’s still in therotation, the Yankees are idiots. I don’t believe this is the case. Also, you can’t trade him, get that out of your head.

    If that’s Garcia… again, just like Nova last years performance means nothing if this year he is the worst of the 4 this year.

    I don’t see a problem taking any of those 4 players out of the rotation for a better pitcher. Worst case scenario? All 6 pitchers end up pitching well enough to be in the rotation (unlikely that all 4 mentioned here would at the same time) and the Yankees have a strength to trade away at the deadline to shore up the lineup/bench/bullpen/whatever.

  83. Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 10:05 am

    AndrewMarchand Bernie in the Hall? Could happen eventually http://tinyurl.com/c4aqosw

  84. RayVT December 22nd, 2011 at 10:10 am

    Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 9:59 am

    I agree with your concern, but I believe the Yanks have been on a learning curve in this new arena of raising your own studs again! That said, I believe they fell like the potential SP in AAA & AA and even in Hughes/Nova/Noesi & Joba as SP is still a high ceiling group.

  85. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 10:11 am

    Why would the Yankees send their second best starting pitcher in Nova to the minors just to add a pitcher? Hughes has more than 4 years of ML time. To get him to the minors, they’d need to expose him to waivers. Not happening. Since he isn’t hurt, they aren’t going to Dl him out of ST.What you want them to do quite obviously isn’t what Cashman is going to do. He’s also not paying $20+ mil to unload Burnett just to sign a $13 mil a year pitcher and NYYs aren’t getting Kuroda for much less than that, and probably for more than 1 year.

  86. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 10:12 am

    dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 9:57 am

    would view putting $33 million of AJ Burnett in the pen as the 12th man on a 12 man pitching staff as a good use of resources

    ====================

    The “good use of resources” horse has left the barn as far as Burnett goes.
    ============

    I’m kind of on the fence about moving AJ to the ‘pen. I think that Noesi would have to have a phenomenal spring for the Yanks to consider it, or AJ would really have to flame out next season.

  87. blake December 22nd, 2011 at 10:16 am

    Perhaps Noesi throwing fuel in the Dominican this winter has contributed to their reluctance to over spend. I really think he could be pretty good….

  88. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 10:17 am

    The odd ons are Keith Hernandez receiving more votes than Mattingly, though Mattingly in a shorter career blew Hernandez in most categories.

    ===========================

    Give the HOF voting body some credit for seeing this right. Mattingly topped out near 30% and at least remains on the ballot, whereas Hernandez topped out at 11% and was bumped off the ballot after 7-8 years.

  89. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:18 am

    GB7 – Again, Nova being “their second best pitcher” (a laughable concept, really) has nothing to do with anything. if he is pitching poorly in the spring he can be the odd man out. i’m not saying to send an effective pitcher out of the rotation.

    You need 5 years of service time before you have to be exposed to waivers, not 4 (hughes is at 4.1). So that option is perfectly viable.

    AJ is a sunk cost. I didn’t say to trade him. I said you CAN’T trade him…

    Can you please keep your thoughts on topic and stop “stereotyping” all of the arguments around here? Or better yet, go back to ignoring me like you usually do. It’s easier than constantly correcting you.

  90. RayVT December 22nd, 2011 at 10:18 am

    Last year the Yanks rode Colon into the ground once they found out how good he was early in the year. A number of us cringed and wished he could get some time off to restore his arm to perhaps be as good as he was earlier in the year in the playoffs because the Yanks needed a #2 SP they could depend upon.

    I think a Colon signing in 2012 would be a good thing and let him be the long man with a real option to be the SP after AS break to allow him to be a #2 or #3 in the playoffs. I would like Joba to be basically the same thing as well because even if they plan on using Joba in the BP, building him up as a SP for when he comes back would ultimately IMO make him better as a BP guy as well.

  91. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:18 am

    whoa… oops :p

  92. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 10:18 am

    I really have to say that I would welcome a return to the days when teams developed their own talent, locked them up under contract, and the core of each team more or less remained intact for a generation. It was kind of nice growing up knowing who were the guys on the Royals, the Tigers, the Sox, the O’s, etc. I wonder if we aren’t at the beginning stages of such a paradigm shift. However, locking up young players to long contracts with big money invites complacency. If I was Cashman, I would be very careful about whom received those kinds of deals.

  93. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 10:19 am

    AJ gets at least as much time in the starting rotation this year as Javy got with us in 2010. Fact.

    So if Javy started 26 games for us…. well… just get used to AJ being AJ.

  94. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:19 am

    At least I didn’t bold the entire thread lol

  95. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 10:20 am

    blake December 22nd, 2011 at 10:16 am

    Perhaps Noesi throwing fuel in the Dominican this winter has contributed to their reluctance to over spend. I really think he could be pretty good….
    ========

    “Throwing fuel”??? You make him sound like a young vandal (or a Phillies fan) :)

  96. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 10:21 am

    Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:19 am

    At least I didn’t bold the entire thread lol
    ===

    You ought to lay off the coffee :)

  97. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 10:22 am

    “I think a Colon signing in 2012 would be a good thing and let him be the long man with a real option to be the SP after AS break to allow him to be a #2 or #3 in the playoffs. I would like Joba to be basically the same thing as well because even if they plan on using Joba in the BP, building him up as a SP for when he comes back would ultimately IMO make him better as a BP guy as well.”

    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    In a weird way it’d be kinda nice if our starting rotation was in shambles by the ASB just to see what the hell they’d do with Joba…

  98. Bo knows December 22nd, 2011 at 10:23 am

    My latest chief gripe with the Yankees, other than Noesi not getting a hundred Major League innings last year is Hughes getting rushed in early spring and showing up with a great FB and little else – a CB that he keeps tinkering with and a sometime cutter.

    I get that the cutter is easier on the arm but he learned it at the AAA level. The toughest pitch ito hit is the CU so where’s the CU guru on the Yankees?

  99. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 10:24 am

    Shame,

    Careful what you wish for!

  100. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 10:25 am

    Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:18 am

    GB7 – Again, Nova being “their second best pitcher” (a laughable concept, really) has nothing to do with anything. if he is pitching poorly in the spring he can be the odd man out. i’m not saying to send an effective pitcher out of the rotation.

    You need 5 years of service time before you have to be exposed to waivers, not 4 (hughes is at 4.1). So that option is perfectly viable.

    =============

    Absent some serious regression on his part, sending Nova back to Triple-A would be a very big mistake. At this stage of the game, Nova has earned the right to work out his troubles (and he almost certainly will struggle a bit in 2012) with the big club.

  101. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 10:27 am

    Well, Hell. Robetson’s got options left. ship him off to AAA. Rivera’s only used one option. Send him down. It’s the time in the majors that dictate options, not just the 4 that he has being shuttled back and forth for 4 years. Hughes is out of options. One option was used in 2007 on his call-up a 3 options were used in ’09, 10 and ’11 because he spent at least 90 days on the roster each year.

    “Options: If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. The rules for this are as follows. (In all cases, an assignment of a player on a major-league disabled list to the minors while on a rehabilitation assignment does not count as time spent in the minors.)

    Once a player has been placed on a team’s 40-man roster, a team has 3 options on that player.
    A player is considered to have used one of those three options when he spends at least 20 days in the minors in any of those 3 seasons.
    A team may have a fourth option on a player with less than five full seasons of professional experience, provided that both conditions are met below.
    1.A player has not spent at least 90 days on an active professional roster in a season. Minor leagues that play below Class A Advanced have seasons that are shorter than 90 days, and as such, any player who spends a full season in a rookie or Class A (short-season) league will receive a fourth option year.
    2.A player has not spent at least 60 days on an active professional roster AND then at least 30 days on a disabled list in a season. Only after 60 days have been spent on an active professional roster does time spent on the disabled list count towards the 90-day threshold. As with the prior example, this cannot occur with players who spend a full season in a rookie or Class A (short season) league.
    Once all of the options have been used up on a player, a player is considered “out of options” and a player must be placed on and clear waivers prior to being sent down to the minor leagues (there is also the “veterans’ consent rule; see below).”

  102. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 10:28 am

    Obviously, they can’t send Rivera down because he’s out of options….just like Hughes.

  103. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:29 am

    GW – This is only the case if Nova comes into ST worse than Hughes, Garcia, Burnett and whoever the mystery 6th starter is (hopefully Kuroda). I don’t think he’s “earned” much more than those other 4 guys have to be tinkering at the ML level… and as you said, he is due for some serious regression.

  104. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 10:31 am

    I won’t actively hope for it but you gotta admit, Jerkface – it’d at least be interesting to see how they approached it.

  105. jacksquat December 22nd, 2011 at 10:32 am

    Nova had a low 3′s era the second half of last year and was essentially their #2 starter in the playoffs. I think he’s in the ML rotation to start the year even if he isn’t up to full speed in spring training.

  106. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:33 am

    GB7 – 2 seconds of googling.

    Phil Hughes
    Called up as a 20-year-old in what really was an act of desperation by the Yankees, Hughes was added to the 40-man for the first time in April 2007 and then went back to the minors after blowing out his hamstring. He spent a little more than three weeks in the minors that July but it was a rehab assignment, so it didn’t count as an optional assignment. The Yankees called him back up in August, so they didn’t burn an option that season.

    Hughes began the next year with the big league team, but eventually hit the disabled list and then did the rehab thing again. The Yankees kept him in the minors for close to 40 days, however the first 30 were the rehab assignment. He did not eclipse the 20-day limit and did not use a minor league option in 2009. Hughes did use his first option in 2009, when he began the year in Triple-A and was called up in late April. He hasn’t been back to the minors since and has two options remaining.

  107. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 10:36 am

    It doesn’t really matter what Hughes’ options are at this point: If he isn’t pitching at MLB level in ST he doesn’t belong on the team.

    I realize we could make the same argument about Burnett lol, but we’ve spent a lot of time trying to get Phil straight and if it doesn’t pay dividends this season I see the team moving on without him.

  108. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 10:37 am

    GB7 doesnt actually understand how most things work, but atleast his limited understanding of the rules allowed him to break out a really nice ‘LETS SEND RIVERA TO THE MINORS!!’ strawman

  109. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 10:37 am

    For the record – I don’t want to give up on him. But eventually the results have to be there consistently.

    I hope he comes out this year with a chip on his shoulder, man on a mission and all that stuff..but if not, move on.

  110. LGY December 22nd, 2011 at 10:38 am

    wait…don’t you guys mean KURODA!!!

    this message has been approved by LGY

    ——-

    Well done Kate!!

  111. LGY December 22nd, 2011 at 10:39 am

    Chip

    I gotta admit you nailed this Danks thing. As a result of my stupidity in this matter, I will not make fun of any of your trade proposals until 2012. Deal?

  112. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 10:39 am

    For the record – I don’t want to give up on him. But eventually the results have to be there consistently.

    I’m a huge Hughes proponent, defending him constantly on here, but you’re pretty much right. Make or break next year for Hughes.

  113. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:39 am

    shame – I agree that it doesn’t matter much, I’m talking about the 6th man here, the odd man out… not a player that we should be caring to have kept around.

  114. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 10:40 am

    Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:29 am

    GW – This is only the case if Nova comes into ST worse than Hughes, Garcia, Burnett and whoever the mystery 6th starter is (hopefully Kuroda). I don’t think he’s “earned” much more than those other 4 guys have to be tinkering at the ML level… and as you said, he is due for some serious regression.
    ==============

    ID, I’m sorry but what you are suggesting seems quite irregular to me. ST is a very short period and a very small sample. We saw Nova work and bulldog his way through a number of bad starts last year in a much bigger sample. He is a big league pitcher, and a bad few weeks in spring won’t change that.

    Moreover, Nova already was jerked around plenty in 2011, being sent back down in favor Hughes, even though he had been pitching great. He has demonstrated that he has the character and the ability to compete at the big league level. Treating Nova properly and judiciously is important not only for Nova’s sake, but for the sake of the other youngsters in the system. It could be demoralizing for some of the kids if the FO is seen to be capricious with Nova after all of his success.

    Absent the guy showing up to camp 40 pounds overweight, with huge bag of pot hanging out of his pants, or an injury, Nova should head north with the big club when camp breaks.

  115. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:42 am

    Ghostwriter – I’m simply suggesting they go into ST with 6 starters, and come out with 5. Who those 5 pitchers are should not matter, so long as they are the best 5.

  116. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 10:42 am

    Thanks guys – its the truth, though. I’ve wanted to see Hughes in that #2 or #3 spot for a while now but unless he gets it together this year we have younger arms with higher upsides waiting in the wings.

    Can we all agree the only mainstay in our starting rotation and the only starter that ‘deserves’ to be there is CC? As far as I’m concerned, the rest is an open season situation. A nice healthy competition between 4-6 guys.

    And if we’re just treading water by the ASB….. maybe one of those guys will be JOBA!

  117. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 10:44 am

    “Absent the guy showing up to camp 40 pounds overweight, with huge bag of pot hanging out of his pants…”

    Everybody hitting the objective pipe!

  118. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:45 am

    with huge bag of pot hanging out of his pants…”

    Smoking pot can result in Cy Young awards and Olypmpic Gold Medals. Remember kids, stay humble… don’t do drugs.

  119. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 10:48 am

    Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:42 am

    Ghostwriter – I’m simply suggesting they go into ST with 6 starters, and come out with 5. Who those 5 pitchers are should not matter, so long as they are the best 5.
    ====

    Noesi will be starting the year in Triple-A, regardless of what he does in ST. If Noesi has a dominant spring, followed by a strong stint in Triple-A, AJ’s job will be very much in jeopardy if he doesn’t perform.

  120. Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 10:48 am

    Absent the guy showing up to camp 40 pounds overweight, with huge bag of pot hanging out of his pants,

    ***************************

    :lol:

  121. MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 10:48 am

    The nice thing for the Yankees is that they don’t HAVE to do anything to be good.

    They already are.

    If something makes sense do it. Otherwise leave it alone for now.

    ;)

  122. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 10:49 am

    Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 10:44 am

    “Absent the guy showing up to camp 40 pounds overweight, with huge bag of pot hanging out of his pants…”

    Everybody hitting the objective pipe!
    ========================

    I knew that line would get a reaction out of folks :)

  123. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 10:51 am

    Noesi will be starting the year in Triple-A, regardless of what he does in ST. If Noesi has a dominant spring, followed by a strong stint in Triple-A, AJ’s job will be very much in jeopardy if he doesn’t perform.

    Noesi will be the 7th man if they bring in a mystery 6th pitcher.

  124. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 10:52 am

    GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 10:00 am
    With the HOF voting due any time and the announcements about 2 weeks away, who gets in? I’m going with Larkin, Raines and Bagwell.

    ———–

    I’m going with just Larkin.

    I think Bags gets (unfairly) dinged because there are sanctimonious writers who – with zero evidence – are going to assume he did steroids and Raines will get hit for a) spending most of his prime years in obscurity and b) cocaine.

  125. 86w183 December 22nd, 2011 at 10:52 am

    Assuming no one gets traded or hurt three spots are already set.

    CC will be in the rotation. AJ will be in the rotation. Nova will be in the rotation.

    Hughes, Garcia and mystery starter # 6 (Koroda, Noesi, Clemens, Koufax, Pettite) are competing for the other two spots.

    The idea that this is a “make or break” season for a 25 year old pitcher is inane.

  126. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 10:53 am

    LGY December 22nd, 2011 at 10:39 am
    Chip

    I gotta admit you nailed this Danks thing. As a result of my stupidity in this matter, I will not make fun of any of your trade proposals until 2012. Deal?

    —————

    Deal!

  127. 86w183 December 22nd, 2011 at 10:54 am

    Raines was clearly the best player of the three. Larkin would get my vote as would Bagwell… but I’d vote for Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod too.

  128. Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 10:55 am

    Ahhh…the objective pipe. That was the best Cashman quote this year by far. ;)

  129. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 10:55 am

    RayVT December 22nd, 2011 at 10:10 am
    Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 9:59 am

    I agree with your concern, but I believe the Yanks have been on a learning curve in this new arena of raising your own studs again! That said, I believe they fell like the potential SP in AAA & AA and even in Hughes/Nova/Noesi & Joba as SP is still a high ceiling group.

    —————

    I agree that they have high ceilings – I am just left to wonder if this current development team will help them realize their potential.

  130. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 10:55 am

    I’m going with just Larkin.

    I think Bags gets (unfairly) dinged because there are sanctimonious writers who – with zero evidence – are going to assume he did steroids and Raines will get hit for a) spending most of his prime years in obscurity and b) cocaine.

    ===================================

    I agree with Larkin, Bagwell and Raines.

    I’d probably throw Edgar Martinez in their too.

  131. jacksquat December 22nd, 2011 at 10:57 am

    86w183 December 22nd, 2011 at 10:52 am

    The idea that this is a “make or break” season for a 25 year old pitcher is inane.

    For his career, but if he doesn’t perform again as a starter this year, he may get Joba’d, at least while he is a Yankee.

  132. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 10:57 am

    Noesi will be the 7th man if they bring in a mystery 6th pitcher.

    This is exactly what I would prefer. When the inevitable injury or ineffectiveness strikes one of the starters, i would prefer the first guy called up to replace a starter not be Noesi.

  133. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 10:58 am

    ID -

    I don’t have a problem with bouncing anyone out of the rotation based on performance, but I think that the four of them are going to have to earn their way out of the rotation during the season.

    I think that going into the season – barring injury – the rotation is pretty much set and what the Yankees are looking for are a couple of veterans on minor league deals to mix in with Warren, Noesi and Phelps to compete for a 6th man role or make a push if Hughes shows up looking awful.

  134. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 10:59 am

    The idea that this is a “make or break” season for a 25 year old pitcher is inane.

    Its definitely make or break for Hughes. He is going to be a free agent soon and the Yankees aren’t going to waste money on locking up a question mark. If he fails to start strong this year he is going to end up in the pen or traded. Hughes has had 5 seasons to show what he can do and hasn’t yet made a huge impact on a starting spot.

    This season basically determines if Hughes is going to stick around as a Yankee. The Yankees dont just have 25 man spots to give away to projects.

  135. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 10:59 am

    Bagwell… but I’d vote for Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod too.

    =======================

    You just hit on the problem for Bagwell. He’s done nothing to deserve being lumped in Bonds, Clemens and Rodriguez, all of whom have been exposed for using PED’s (and all of whom I’d vote for HOF induction). When it comes to HOF voting, the only thing worse than saying “I won’t vote for a guy who used PED’s” is “I won’t vote for a guy who I think might have used PED’s”

  136. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 11:00 am

    Noesi needs to spend the entire year in AAA most likely, or else he is going to get Hughes’d by his crappy amount of innings last year (bad move leaving him in the bullpen to never pitch!). Yankees really need to bring in 1 more starter and then let Phelps/Warren be the first up.

  137. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 11:00 am

    Chip – Sticking Garcia into the pen as the long man (like they did last year) wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world if they have Kuroda (sorry… KU RO DA) in the fold and Hughes/Nova/Burnett pitching well. Saves miles on his arm too, maybe he can actually pitch the last 2 months effectively.

  138. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 11:02 am

    86w183 December 22nd, 2011 at 10:52 am

    The idea that this is a “make or break” season for a 25 year old pitcher is inane.

    ———————-

    I agree but in the big picture you are looking at the wrong thing (age)

    It’s his 4th year in the majors and he’s been – to this point – injury prone and inconsistant. The Yankees do have players who are at the stage where they are earning extended looks and so the question becomes whether or not Hughes shows enough to warrant holding those other kids down or whether the organization is best served by seeing what pitchers (with little left to prove in the minors) can do at this next level?

  139. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 11:03 am

    If breaking a law like using something illegal like cocaine was a reason for not getting in, drinking booze during prohibition would be just as bad. That eliminates 15 years of players. Both were illegal. Cepeda is in and he did time for smuggling marijuana.

  140. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 11:04 am

    86w183 – I don’t think its make or break for him as a pitcher, I just think its make or break for him as a starting pitcher with the Yankees.

  141. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 11:04 am

    The idea that this is a “make or break” season for a 25 year old pitcher is inane

    ===================================

    Maybe so for his career as a whole, but definitely not for his career as a Yankee. After this season, he’s an Arb 3 and then a free agent. That means he starts making real money and if he’s to do it as a member of the Yankees, he will most certainly need to show that he’s worth it by performing at a higher level than he has for the past year and half.

  142. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 11:05 am

    Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 10:51 am

    Noesi will be starting the year in Triple-A, regardless of what he does in ST. If Noesi has a dominant spring, followed by a strong stint in Triple-A, AJ’s job will be very much in jeopardy if he doesn’t perform.

    Noesi will be the 7th man if they bring in a mystery 6th pitcher.
    =============

    Fair enough. However, if they bring in a $12 million guy to compete for a rotation slot, then AJ is pretty much screwed. If they bring in somebody like Colon, then you could slot him (or AJ) in as the long man.

    In other words, I think that AJ is the one on the bubble. Here is how I see the rotation in order of their likelihood to be in the rotation:
    Sabathia (a lock, obviously)

    Hughes (a lock: make-or-break year; needs action in the Majors to assess his future with the club)

    Nova (a lock: earned his slot in the rotation three times over in 2011)

    Garcia (could be a candidate for long man as well, but I think that he’s earned enough good will to protect his slot in the rotation for now)

    Mystery guy (a lock if he has a 8-figure salary;possibly ahead of Garcia; on the bubble otherwise)

    Burnett (on the bubble: a bust of a signing; no signs of consistent improvement; Cashman has shopped him this offseason; clogs up the rotation; could be the odd man out)

    Noesi (starts the year in triple-A; could be one of the first options out of the minors in the event of injury or nonperformance)

  143. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 11:07 am

    Hughes hasn’t shown that he can’t be a more than solid ML starter, as much as some like to believe. He’s getting traded and he’s not being sent to AAA and he won’t be in the bullpen just to add an aging, expensive pitcher.

  144. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 11:00 am
    Chip – Sticking Garcia into the pen as the long man (like they did last year) wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world if they have Kuroda (sorry… KU RO DA) in the fold and Hughes/Nova/Burnett pitching well. Saves miles on his arm too, maybe he can actually pitch the last 2 months effectively.

    ——————

    There is one major difference between how the Yankees handled Garcia last year and how they treat him this year – the salary.

    Garcia was in here last year at a base deal of what $1.5 mil? Now he’s here at $4 mil base and both Girardi and Cashman have said publically that he has a spot in the rotation

  145. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 11:09 am

    I think if you can play baseball on cocaine you should automatically get inducted into the Hall of Fame. Still can’t get over Dock Ellis’ LSD fueled no-hitter. HOF worthy!!

  146. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 11:09 am

    He’s ***not*** getting traded and he’s not

  147. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 11:11 am

    GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 11:03 am
    If breaking a law like using something illegal like cocaine was a reason for not getting in, drinking booze during prohibition would be just as bad. That eliminates 15 years of players. Both were illegal. Cepeda is in and he did time for smuggling marijuana.

    —————

    Yes well the voters who voted for prohibition era players are all dead so their particular opinions or voting standards matter as little as yours or mine.

    The question is what this group of baseball writers will do and as we’ve seen they not only want the players they vote for to be great players, but they want them to be wonderful individuals too. Thus I think that a guy who was so into drugs they called him Rock might have a tough time crossing the finish line.

  148. Jerkface December 22nd, 2011 at 11:11 am

    Hughes hasn’t shown that he can’t be a more than solid ML starter, as much as some like to believe. He’s getting traded and he’s not being sent to AAA and he won’t be in the bullpen just to add an aging, expensive pitcher.

    He has never had a full season where he has been above average as a starter. As much as you’d like to believe, Hughes has never had a year as good as any of John Danks.

  149. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 11:12 am

    Dock Ellis was like Jackson. He was a legend in his own mind. If he had spent more time playing to his ability and less time blowing his own horn, his career would have been better.

  150. Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 11:15 am

    AndrewMarchand Source: Danks to Yanks never close. Some info on a trade that never was. http://es.pn/srY52O

  151. GreenBeret7 December 22nd, 2011 at 11:19 am

    Raines got his name when he was 17 because of how he was built, not because of the cocaine.

  152. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 11:20 am

    AndrewMarchand Source: Danks to Yanks never close. Some info on a trade that never was.

    ===============================

    Gotta love Marchand. He’s not only a great source for the merely obvious, he’s also outstanding at bringing to light the painfully obvious.

  153. pkyankfan69 December 22nd, 2011 at 11:20 am

    Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 11:09 am
    I think if you can play baseball on cocaine you should get inducted into the Hall of Fame. Still can’t get over Dock Ellis’ LSD fueled no-hitter. HOF worthy!!
    ———————————————

    I don’t see how doing coke would be a huge problem with playing baseball.

    Now playing baseball on LSD seems just about impossible to me.
    Putting your shoes on is difficult on LSD.

  154. ajw December 22nd, 2011 at 11:25 am

    Develop our own pitching. Cash is doing the right thing. Patience. Which many Yankee fans don’t have. :)

  155. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 11:25 am

    GW – and both Girardi and Cashman have said publically that he has a spot in the rotation

    Yes, and they can easily say that because they currently have no better options. $5mil isn’t going to stop them from putting the best rotation out there possible if they have 5 pitchers outperforming Garcia in the spring (or realistically, if all 6 starters look good coming out of sST). He’s the pitcher most suited to be the long man, most suited to be moved from longman to starter and vice-versa, and he’s easily he most expendable. Even if it’s only for a short period (like last season) he’s the guy I would send to the pen out of ST if all other options actually pan out. His measly salary never comes into the equation.

  156. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 11:26 am

    pkyankfan69 December 22nd, 2011 at 11:20 am

    Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 11:09 am
    I think if you can play baseball on cocaine you should get inducted into the Hall of Fame. Still can’t get over Dock Ellis’ LSD fueled no-hitter. HOF worthy!!
    ———————————————

    I don’t see how doing coke would be a huge problem with playing baseball.

    Now playing baseball on LSD seems just about impossible to me.
    Putting your shoes on is difficult on LSD.

    ======================

    Okay okay okay.. since its the off season I feel like there’s more room for this stuff. Once a few friends of mine decided to take ‘shrooms. I had left them to their own devices during finals or something (can’t remember what, just know I had an obligation). I come back home and they have written an elaborate story about the magic light box in my room and all the crazy things it opened their eyes to. They were worshiping the light box. It took me about 15 minutes of talking to them to realize that the ‘magic light box’ was my television.

    So again.. pitching a no-hitter on LSD? HOF worthy!

    And seriously kids, don’t do drugs.

  157. ajw December 22nd, 2011 at 11:28 am

    MTU December 22nd, 2011 at 9:04 am
    Chad-

    IMO it is not an “either/or” choice.

    As CB pointed out last night a lot of it is about talent evaluation.

    I think the Yankees should try their darndest to develop Pitching from within but if they see a chance to acquire a “stud” then maybe they fork over some of that talent.

    there are 2 roads that lead to tipperary.

    neither should be neglected IMO.

    _______________________________________________________________________

    Then again I agree more with MTU’s response. :)

  158. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 11:28 am

    The question is what this group of baseball writers will do and as we’ve seen they not only want the players they vote for to be great players, but they want them to be wonderful individuals too

    ========================

    Wonder how rigid they’ll be about this in light of recent revelations about Bill Conlin. BBWA’s statement seemed to argue that while abuse of a child is bad (they got this right on their 2nd attempt), it had little to do with Conlin’s brilliant career as a baseball writer.

    Be interesting to see whether similar logic will be applied in the player votes.

  159. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 11:28 am

    The more I read about this deal… the more I find myself wondering… WTF was Danks thinking signing this extension now?

  160. Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 11:30 am

    Shame-I’ve always been completely fascinated by that LSD no-hitter. Boggles the mind.

    BTW, I’m totally going to start calling my TV “the magic light box” ;)

  161. Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 11:31 am

    Something to be on the lookout for:

    Joba_62 Just finished an interview with @anthonymccarron hope u guys enjoy. Will be out Christmas day or the day after!

  162. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 11:31 am

    dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 10:55 am

    I’m going with just Larkin.

    I think Bags gets (unfairly) dinged because there are sanctimonious writers who – with zero evidence – are going to assume he did steroids and Raines will get hit for a) spending most of his prime years in obscurity and b) cocaine.

    ===================================

    I agree with Larkin, Bagwell and Raines.

    I’d probably throw Edgar Martinez in their too.
    ==================

    On a purely statistical basis, I would go with Bagwell. The others were very good players, but they just don’t make the cut IMO. However, it’s a real close call with Larkin and Martinez; other factors could play a key role in making a decision.

  163. DONNYBROOK December 22nd, 2011 at 11:32 am

    This free agency vs trade vs home grown question is NO longer relevant to Cashman in Dec. Cashman is currently Evaluating the 2012 Yankee team in a Much different manner. He begins by asking himself, “what do I know as fact”? (1) Yanks had the best 2011 record in the AL. (2) Almost the Entire 2011 Yankee team is returning in 2012. (3) In 2012, (1) team will be added to the AL Playoffs, = a grand total of (5). At this point, Cashman adopts an “Everything is relative” attitude, and measures his Best Record Team vs (1) The other teams in the AL East, and then vs (2) All other AL Teams. As for the AL East, Cashman sees NO significant improvement in any team, meaning this same Yankee team should repeat as AL East Champ and qualify for the Playoffs. Cashman then merely eyeballs the remaining AL teams. He knows the Yanks lost to Detroit in the 2011 Playoffs, he knows Texas was the 2011 AL Champion, he knows the Angels have vastly improved their roster in the 2011 offseason. In Dec, this is NOT a primary concern of Cash, as the he feels the Yanks have Already secured a Playoff spot in the 2012 AL Playoffs. What’s the motivation for making a trade Now? What’s the motivation for signing a free agent Now? Cashman Already feels he has a 2012 Playoff team. Cashman is gonna wait and make any future decisions based on FACT. How are the 2012 Yankees actually performing on the field, who is injured, etc. Cashman is currently compelled to do nothing based on feeling the current Yankee roster is Playoff bound in 2012.

  164. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 11:33 am

    The more I read about this deal… the more I find myself wondering… WTF was Danks thinking signing this extension now?

    ===========================

    It is pretty strange. They’ve been trying to extend him for awhile, but he seemed to prefer going year to year. Why he abandoned that philosophy a year ahead of free agency when he was probably in line for at least a Burnett deal is puzzling.

  165. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 11:34 am

    “as we’ve seen they not only want the players they vote for to be great players, but they want them to be wonderful individuals too

    This is just such a load of s***. I mean.. what stats do we have to evaluate morality?! ;)

  166. Johannes December 22nd, 2011 at 11:35 am

    I really hope Gio get’s traded soon so that I don’t have to worry the Yankees suddenly go crazy and throw Montero and Banuelos + other prospect at Oakland for him.
    Get Kuroda and dump AJ, eat all the salary if we have to.
    Kuroda has the right mentality to be succesfull here.
    Gio won’t be worth it. He’ll be good, but he’s not the solution I think.

  167. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 11:36 am

    Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 11:30 am

    BTW, I’m totally going to start calling my TV “the magic light box” ;)

    —————–

    The more I think about it, the more I think they were the ones seeing the world with more clarity than I lol

  168. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 11:36 am

    dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 11:28 am

    The question is what this group of baseball writers will do and as we’ve seen they not only want the players they vote for to be great players, but they want them to be wonderful individuals too

    ========================

    Wonder how rigid they’ll be about this in light of recent revelations about Bill Conlin. BBWA’s statement seemed to argue that while abuse of a child is bad (they got this right on their 2nd attempt), it had little to do with Conlin’s brilliant career as a baseball writer.

    Be interesting to see whether similar logic will be applied in the player votes.
    ======================

    I’m going to go out on a limb here, and say that a person being a child molester identifies them as being a scumbag of the highest order, and not deserving of any accolades for anything. He would be a rotten miserable scumbag if he had discovered a cure for cancer or brought about peace on earth. His little baseball column is hardly any sort of mitigating factor in my book.

  169. Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 11:37 am

    Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 11:28 am
    The more I read about this deal… the more I find myself wondering… WTF was Danks thinking signing this extension now?

    —————-

    I think he probably took a look at what Weaver got and also at the crop of potential free agents he would be competing with and took a calculated risk that it was better to sign now than be the third choice behind Greinke and Hamels

  170. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 11:38 am

    Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 11:34 am

    “as we’ve seen they not only want the players they vote for to be great players, but they want them to be wonderful individuals too”

    This is just such a load of s***. I mean.. what stats do we have to evaluate morality?! ;)
    =========

    We can measure the number of Google hits on a search of the person’s name, and terms like “miserable scumbag,” reprobate, etc. :P

  171. Wave Your Hat December 22nd, 2011 at 11:39 am

    I can’t imagine Garcia won’t start next year. Certainly not because any of the AAA pitchers knock him out of the rotation out of spring training. It won’t be Noesi – he started all of 7 games last year. Maybe if the Yanks sign Kuroda or Jackson, but it doesn’t look like that’s going to happen. And if they did sign a pitcher like that, it seems more likely they’d dump AJ or trade Hughes away than demote a guy who was arguably their second best starter last year.

  172. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 11:43 am

    Chip December 22nd, 2011 at 11:37 am

    Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 11:28 am
    The more I read about this deal… the more I find myself wondering… WTF was Danks thinking signing this extension now?

    —————-

    I think he probably took a look at what Weaver got and also at the crop of potential free agents he would be competing with and took a calculated risk that it was better to sign now than be the third choice behind Greinke and Hamels
    =======

    I think that he was reading the writing on the wall about the new CBA. And he was probably pretty happy in Chicago. It’s a great town; he probably likes the organization; and the idea of working with Ventura sounds like a pretty good situation. Making $65 million for the next 5 years doesn’t exactly sound like a hardship to me. Sure, he probably left a significant sum of money on the table, but he probably saved himself a lot grief and stresss.

  173. Against All Odds December 22nd, 2011 at 11:44 am

    # ajw December 22nd, 2011 at 11:25 am

    Develop our own pitching. Cash is doing the right thing. Patience. Which many Yankee fans don’t have. :)

    ——————

    Do the Yankees have the patience to go through the growing pains?

  174. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 11:45 am

    GW- That might not be a bad idea actually! At least we’re thinking with our heads since the writers haven’t come up with a way to figure that part out consistently.

  175. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 11:48 am

    I’m going to go out on a limb here, and say that a person being a child molester identifies them as being a scumbag of the highest order, and not deserving of any accolades for anything. He would be a rotten miserable scumbag if he had discovered a cure for cancer or brought about peace on earth. His little baseball column is hardly any sort of mitigating factor in my book.

    ===================================

    I think everyone would agree with this. Obviously the BBWAA was asked about Conlin after giving him the Spink Award last year, which comes with recognition in the HOF.

  176. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 11:48 am

    Against All Odds December 22nd, 2011 at 11:44 am

    # ajw December 22nd, 2011 at 11:25 am

    Develop our own pitching. Cash is doing the right thing. Patience. Which many Yankee fans don’t have. :)

    ——————

    Do the Yankees have the patience to go through the growing pains?
    ===

    They’ve been showing a lot of patience over the last few years. Can you remember the last youngster that they gave as many chance to as Hughes? Kaminiecki hung around for a long time, but I can’t think of anybody else…

  177. 86w183 December 22nd, 2011 at 11:48 am

    If the Yanks give up on Hughes after 2012 there will be 29 MLB clubs lined up to sign him.

    It may be “make or break” as a starter in your mind(s), but I don’t think many decision makers in the majors would agree with that thinking.

    That said, I’m betting on Hughes for a very good season ahead.

    Garcia is not going to the bullpen. “Touch” pitchers have to be in a routine to be effective. That’s probably why Cashman made little effort towards adding a starter once he resigned Freddie and extended CC.

    The keys to the rotation in 2012 appear to be Hughes (5-4, 5.90) and AJ (11-11, 5.16) being A LOT better.

  178. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 11:50 am

    The “writing on the wall” about the new CBA is that FA’s going forward will be overpaid (read: the best thing for the player) because they will be the most attainable commodity is baseball. Team can’t rely on the draft/IFA anymore. The “cap” only effects 2 teams currently, so players shouldn’t be considering that an issue..

    The suggestion that he doesn’t want to be a FA along with Greinke/Hamels makes the most sense.

  179. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 11:53 am

    dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 11:48 am

    I’m going to go out on a limb here, and say that a person being a child molester identifies them as being a scumbag of the highest order, and not deserving of any accolades for anything. He would be a rotten miserable scumbag if he had discovered a cure for cancer or brought about peace on earth. His little baseball column is hardly any sort of mitigating factor in my book.

    ===================================

    I think everyone would agree with this. Obviously the BBWAA was asked about Conlin after giving him the Spink Award last year, which comes with recognition in the HOF.
    ======

    I had no idea that had happened! This terrible. They must rescind the award and the recognition in the HoF (whatever its nature). If they don’t take some kind of remedial action, then I, for one, would be through with the HoF, and I think that folks should petition the living HoFers to do something about this. I wish Feller was still alive. He would never stand for this kind of garbage.

  180. Shame Spencer December 22nd, 2011 at 11:54 am

    86w183 – I have high hopes for Hughes this year as well, and hope beyond reason he can be a force in our rotation going forward. ….but if he isn’t, I have high hopes for Banuelos and hope beyond reason he can be a force in our rotation going forward :D

  181. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 22nd, 2011 at 11:55 am

    It really comes down to want vs. need.

    New York doesn’t need a middle of the road starter. They also don’t need an Ace. They need a bonafied #2 starter, if anything.

    So you take Banuelos and Bettances and evaluate, without overhyping your own prospects, whether or not their ceiling is higher than the #2 you’re looking to acquire. easier said than done, I know, but at the end of the day, getting someone who has demonstrated consistent success is a far surer bet than hoping that a prospect’s minor league numbers are going to translate to the MLB.

    I don’t know who is available, but I do know that the few guys that would be worth dumping the farm for are currently not available.

    I just don’t see NY doing anything this offseason in that capacity. My guess is they’ll go into the season with what they have now and evaluate the trade market prior to the deadline. If a real difference-maker becomes available, that is when they’ll make their move.

    But again, there are VERY few guys really worth dealing for who we know are available. Gio Gonzalez???? Please. That guy has pitched successfully for one season. I need to see a better, longer track record if I am dumping a Mat Latos esque package on a team to acquire someone. At least Latos has been dealing for a few years now. 2011 was the first time Gonzalez was even remotely relevant.

  182. Erin December 22nd, 2011 at 11:56 am

    New Post: LoHud Yankees chat starts at noon

    :arrow:

  183. G. Love December 22nd, 2011 at 11:56 am

    Seeing the package it took to get Latos most of you would have a conniption fit if the Yankees made a trade for a young good starter.

    It’s pointless to discuss pitching trades in here when most of the people are not willing to give up the goodies. It takes goodies now to get these guys. Romine, Phelps and Adams probably gets you a guy a year from free agency who is a middle of the rotation starter.

    The Yankees don’t want to pay the price in talent to get a slightly above average arm. That’s clear.

    They’re betting on their own development big time and let’s hope they are correct in doing so this time around as opposed to 2008.

    The rotation as it stands is good enough to make the post season. I’m more concerned about the disappearing power hitting millionaires in the middle of our lineup than if CC, Nova, Hughes, Garcia and AJ can’t keep the team in the game for 5 innings which is all they need to do with the depth of our pen in a playoff game.

    What I’m befuddled about is Cashman not looking to upgrade the offense and change the pieces which are flawed when it gets to big game better pitching situations.

    I would have traded Swisher for a pitcher if a deal was out there and brought in a platoon of Jones and someone who can hit RHP or I would have signed Beltran if Swisher netted a decent starter.

    Signing Swisher to a big money 4 year extension after this season would be a major mistake.

    Maybe we’ll get Cespedes although I have no idea how anyone can evaluate he’ll contribute anything based off what they’ve seen.

    To me the issue with why this team got kicked out of the first round was our offense making mediocre pitching look like Cy Young pitching when the pressure was up. If your best hitters can’t beat Doug Fister or Valverde when they both on the ropes begging to lose the game it doesn’t matter if you have Felix, Kershaw and Hallyday starting for you.

    The price to trade for a young starter is enormous so the Yankees should stand pat, take inventory of what they have and hope some of these guys step up like Nova did last season.

    I know I’m a little late to the game with this but I don’t understand the Yankees letting money stop them from going hard for Darvish. If he turns out to be a great pitcher, that will be another international miss where the Yankees let money stop them from getting talent they never would have had a chance to get in the draft. Considering half the cash outlay for Darvish wouldn’t count on the luxury tax it’s mind boggling to me why the Yankees would pass on him. They must have scouted him enough to not like him. If they loved him and passed on him because of money, that’s a problem and shows the front office is shifting away from using the one big advantage they have over the rest of the league. Money.

    What makes me fearful about that happening is when they miss on a guy they love because of money it can cause them to do something dumb to make up for the miss. Like Igawa.

    Let’s hope Edwin Jackson doesn’t get a 4 year 48 million dollar deal from the Yankees now.

  184. austinmac December 22nd, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    The Jays and Rays are in on Beltran. I think St. Louis would be a better place for him.

    When does patience become complacence?

  185. dogface December 22nd, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    The Jays and Rays are in on Beltran. I think St. Louis would be a better place for him

    ==============================

    I think having the DH spot available to give the balky knee the occasioanl break might serve him well.

  186. Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    If he turns out to be a great pitcher, that will be another international miss

    No. Darvish HAS to be a great pitcher, or the money will not have been worth it. It’s not a mistake by any team to pass on such an overpriced player.

  187. 86w183 December 22nd, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    All indications are that Darvish will cost the Rangers roughly $ 120 M over six years is not more.

    He has to be one of the top five starters in MLB to justify that kind of coin. It’s a huge risk that I would not have made if it were my money.

    I would, however take a flier on Cespedes and/or Soler who combined will get less than the posting fee for Darvish.

    The Yanks pitched well enough to win the Detroit series and they pitched well enough to post the best record in the league. And that’s with Hughes, Colon and Burnett combining for 24-24 with an ERA around 5.00. That’s almost half (72) of the starts.

    There’s reason to be patient and think internal improvements will make this team better in 2012.

  188. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    Irreverent Discourse December 22nd, 2011 at 11:50 am

    The “writing on the wall” about the new CBA is that FA’s going forward will be overpaid (read: the best thing for the player) because they will be the most attainable commodity is baseball. Team can’t rely on the draft/IFA anymore. The “cap” only effects 2 teams currently, so players shouldn’t be considering that an issue..

    ==============

    I’m not sure that I agree with that. I don’t have the data handy to prove it, but I would guess that the salary cap has slowed the rise of big league salaries over the last several years. This new CBA tightens the salary cap even more, with tougher penalties. This should have the effect of slowing the growth of salaries even more. Essentially, the two biggest teams have been sidelined, because their total salaries already exceed the threshold. Two years of watching the Yankees sit on the sidelines, tightening their purse strings, will make it kind of tough sell for guys like Boras that the Yanks or the Sox might steal away a favored player. After all, it was essentially a handful of teams–led by the Yanks– that have been bidding up the players’ salaries.

    A key point that I missed earlier in my remarks about Danks was his crummy year in 2011. this new contract takes a ton of pressure off him and his performance in 2012. Two subpar years in a row would have cost him a big payday. Now, he has his payday for sure (a bird in the hand, and all).

  189. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 12:25 pm

    austinmac December 22nd, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    The Jays and Rays are in on Beltran. I think St. Louis would be a better place for him.

    When does patience become complacence?
    ==========

    Beltran doesn’t really make sense for the Jays. However, he could be a very dangerous addition to an already tough Rays team. I really wish Cashman would take a look at signing him.

  190. Ghostwriter December 22nd, 2011 at 12:29 pm

    What I’m befuddled about is Cashman not looking to upgrade the offense and change the pieces which are flawed when it gets to big game better pitching situations.

    I would have traded Swisher for a pitcher if a deal was out there and brought in a platoon of Jones and someone who can hit RHP or I would have signed Beltran if Swisher netted a decent starter.

    Signing Swisher to a big money 4 year extension after this season would be a major mistake.

    =========

    I share your consternation and trepidation about Swisher. My prescription: Sign Beltran, sign Jones, and trade Swisher to a contender for a pitcher (or for some good prospects). There are lots of teams that would like to have Swisher, and we can get some good value for him, and upgrade the club with Beltran.

  191. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 22nd, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    G Love,

    I agree in part, but I think you’re a bit too presumptuous as to what Swisher would net us in the way of a starting pitcher.

    Trading for Swisher means taking on salary (not cheap) not to mention extending him. He’s a year away from Free Agency, so why would a team be compelled to give up a quality starting pitcher for a year of Nick Swisher?? He’s good, but he’s not THAT good. And if NY isn’t getting a quality SP in exchange for him, what’s the point of trading him?

    If teams are calling about Gardner or Swisher and are willing to cough up a quality SP, then sign me up. I have no problem dealing either of those guys, especially Swisher, as much as I love him.

    And for those of you lobbying for Beltran, no thanks. Cashman shouldn’t touch that with a ten foot pole. He’s over the hill, his knees are shot, and they can afford to take a gamble on one of these Cuban guys if they want to add OF depth.

    Need I remind you that we have enough old guys on our team as it is???

  192. J. Alfred Prufrock December 22nd, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    I’d say the folks here who do not want to deal the top prospects can be counted on one hand.

    Probably because there only those few who have some first-hand basis for wanting to keep those guys.

    Seems to me that the majority were in here the last two months throwing especially Betances’ name into every deal, for guys who can’t sniff his upside. That’s to be expected, I suppose, because most haven’t seen him, or any of these players. It’s easy just to throw names around to satisfy fantasies based on MLB players they HAVE actually seen.

    But again, the ones who want to hang onto the top guys are greatly outnumbered, and the ones who don’t want to deal Betances are, um, three of us. :D (all three have seen him pitch an actual game or two, or 10: coincidence? ;) ).


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