The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


The morning after the big splash

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 14, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

For three and a half months, Brian Cashman refused to budge. He wanted pitching — he made that clear from the very beginning — but he wouldn’t pay top dollar for free agents and he wouldn’t cough up massive prospects in a trade.

So what in the world happened last night?

Yes, it was stunning. And it happened fast. But beyond the shock value of suddenly acquiring two big league starters and losing the team’s top hitting prospect in the process, I’m not entirely sure last night’s flurry of activity signaled a philosophical shift within the Yankees organization.

Consider the two moves…

The key to the kingdom
A four-player deal for Michael Pineda
Cashman has always said that pitching is the key. His “key to the kingdom” line is practically a catchphrase, and last night he swapped young hitting for young pitching. True, the hitter he gave up was believed to be nearly untouchable, but Jesus Montero was never completely untouchable, and we knew that. We’d known it ever since the last time Cashman tried to trade for a Mariners starter.

Last night, the Yankees gave up a 22-year-old slugger who might or might not be able to play the field effectively, for a 22-year-old starter who had a 3.74 ERA last season and is still under team control for another five years. Yes, Hector Noesi and Jose Campos are legitimate prospects, but this deal clearly centered on swapping a young, cheap, talented hitter for a young, cheap, talented pitcher.

Short-term risk
A one-year deal with Hiroki Kuroda
Kuroda is about to turn 37 years old and he’s never pitched outside of the National League West. Even coming off his best year, Kuroda’s no sure thing. And at $10 million, he no cheap thing either. But what’s the worst-case scenario here? One bad year?

C.J. Wilson signed for five years. Mark Buehrle signed for four. Edwin Jackson was believed to seeking a multi-year deal. The risk with Kuroda is contained. Here and now, he helps turn the Yankees rotation from a thin question mark to an overflowing strength. In the future he… does nothing. Maybe he keeps the Yankees from pushing a young guy into the rotation right away, but ultimately, his impact — for better and for worse — is limited to this season. The short-term cost is high, but still lower than Kuroda was reportedly seeking early this offseason.

Associated Press photo

 
 

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237 Responses to “The morning after the big splash”

  1. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 8:34 am

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....ay-retail/

  2. Stoneburner January 14th, 2012 at 8:35 am

    Stoneburner January 14th, 2012 at 8:35 am
    Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 8:29 am
    We’ll also need to be patient with Pineda as he isn’t a finished product. He’ll need coaching, and he’ll need time to develop.

    —————————————–

    Why should we be patient the Yankees showed they had no faith or patience with Montero by how many times they tried to deal him.

    ********

    Nice – so take it out on the kid – b/c he is the one who pulled off the trade NOT Cashman – real classy. And being a Yankees fan – should always know to not get too attached to prospects unless they somehow establish themselves in the majors before they become trade bait or are lucky to survive the trade rumor mill. Plus – I root for the New York Yankees NOT the New York Monteros.

  3. Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 8:38 am

    I don’t think the Yankees showed a lack of faith or patience with Montero.

    ———————————————

    They wouldn’t let him catch and tried to trade him more than once if that is not a lack of faith I don’t know what is.

  4. blake January 14th, 2012 at 8:38 am

    Cashman should go to Boras and say look…..we will make Prince the highest paid player in AAV in history for two seasons……he can enter the market again at 29 and likely after tearing up the short porch at YS. Hal would have to approve it…..but the money would come off before 2014 and THAT would really make the Yankees better

  5. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 8:39 am

    a Jones / Pena split would not be a bad idea although I rather see a young 3rd base with a good bat & glove

  6. Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 8:42 am

    Stoneburner January 14th, 2012 at 8:35 am

    Stoneburner January 14th, 2012 at 8:35 am
    Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 8:29 am
    We’ll also need to be patient with Pineda as he isn’t a finished product. He’ll need coaching, and he’ll need time to develop.

    —————————————–

    Why should we be patient the Yankees showed they had no faith or patience with Montero by how many times they tried to deal him.

    ********

    Nice – so take it out on the kid – b/c he is the one who pulled off the trade NOT Cashman – real classy. And being a Yankees fan – should always know to not get too attached to prospects unless they somehow establish themselves in the majors before they become trade bait or are lucky to survive the trade rumor mill. Plus – I root for the New York Yankees NOT the New York Monteros.

    —————————————–

    Now I’m taking it out on Cashman. He sucked at developing his own pitchers so he went out and acquired one unfortunately Montero had to be given up to accomplish that. Hopefully the trade works out but if it doesn’t it will be another pitching failure by Cashman. The last time he tried to get young with the rotation it didn’t work out.

  7. Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 8:44 am

    Might find this article on Pineda and the short video of his nasty slider and 96mph fastball interesting, even if it was against the weak hitting A’s.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb

    I think I like Stoneburners idea of possibly considering Kotchman as the left-handed DH/1B

  8. blake January 14th, 2012 at 8:44 am

    What about an Ethier/Jones DH platoon?

  9. CashmanSUX January 14th, 2012 at 8:45 am

    The truth in the way the Yankees view Montero (be their opinion right or wrong) is in their actions, not their words.

    Cashman has been making Montero available for one pitcher after another year after year, and finally trades him for a high-level pitching PROSPECT. That should tell you something. The Yanks viewed Montero as a guy they wanted to trade. If they honestly believed all the hype they’ve been throwing out there (he’s mike piazza, he’s Miguel Cabrera), would Cashman & Co. have made this deal? No. And remember, these are the same people who said Phil Hughes was Roger Clemens.

    Personally, I like this trade.

  10. jacksquat January 14th, 2012 at 8:46 am

    MTU January 14th, 2012 at 8:35 am
    Jack-

    A fast slider, i.e. high 80?s is NOT an OS pitch.

    An OS pitching my mind is something in the 70?s.

    And most guys don’t throw the spitter all that hard.

    It’s a terrific pitch because it usually induces either swings and misses, or
    ground balls.

    When guys miss with it they usually do so low in the zone which is another plus.

    Splitters are not hung as often as some off speed pitches.

    The stress on the arm thing is overblown IMO.

    I don’t like the cookie-cutter approach to teaching pitching because pitchers are individuals and as such has different abilites.

    What works for one guy might not work for another.

    Pitches come into and out of vogue just like car styles.

    I can remember when the “palmball” was a favored pitch.

    Right now it’s the cc.

    Open-mindednes is a good thing in a pitching coach, and a willingness to see
    each guys strengths and weaknesses.

    I hope that larry Rothschild is such a Man.

    The splitter is a pitch thrown fairly hard. Look at Kuroda last year for example:

    Fastball: 92.0
    Splitter: 87.1
    Slider: 84.3
    CB: 78.7

    and it is typically a k pitch much more than a contact/ground ball pitch (like a two seamer).

    I know about the splitter because I used to throw one. ;)

    I was not advocating not throwing the split, just my observation of what appears to be a pattern with the Yankees. They like the changeup.

  11. yankeefeminista January 14th, 2012 at 8:46 am

    Re-post:

    yankeefeminista January 14th, 2012 at 8:42 am
    Ugh, did we really trade Montero or was it just a nightmare I had last night on Friday the 13th?

    MTU, King Felix (the best at it!) was teaching Pineda the change while Pineda was in Seattle. Pineda supposedly threw some nasty ones in September. He is a work in progress, but at least he threw 9 changeups in one of his 3 September games.

    yankeefeminista January 14th, 2012 at 8:44 am
    Rich in NJ, he expressed mine too! We miss you around here.

  12. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 8:47 am

    need to bring in a DH, 3rd base or a OFer, SP & BP are set players in place how it plays out who knows…would like to see them get a catcher that can give RM a break, don’t know if FC is the answer maybe the kid catcher can win the backup job out of ST

  13. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 8:47 am

    Stay tuned folks.

    There seems to be more to this story.

    We now return to your regular programming.

    I’m freakin’ excited.

    I thought we were really good before.

    Now I think we’re effin’ great.

    Just tweak it a bit more and the rest of the league is gonna sh*t their pants.

    they may have already.

    :)

  14. Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 8:47 am

    No not now

  15. Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 8:48 am

    Blake-

    Does Prince Fielder really want to convert to the role of DH for two years, even if it’s the Yankees when he can get a 1B position with the Rangers, if they can’t sign Darvish by this Wednesday, or stay in the NL with the Nats who have the $$$ to sign him and having a close working relationship with Boras, having signed no less than 4 previous clients?

  16. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 8:48 am

    blake January 14th, 2012 at 8:44 am
    What about an Ethier/Jones DH platoon?

    ————————————————–
    is Ethier a decent OFer

  17. RadioKev January 14th, 2012 at 8:48 am

    That fangraphs article is on the money, the trade is a good deal versus what the market has been doing this season.

    Hopefully CC can help show him the art of pitching. CC also made that transition, from being more of a thrower to a pitcher, in the bigs.

  18. jacksquat January 14th, 2012 at 8:48 am

    After throwing a full year of MLB I don’t think anyone is a “prospect” anymore. Young, yes, but not a prospect.

  19. willwill January 14th, 2012 at 8:50 am

    Phil hughes may not be roger clemens, but he also wasn’t slapping balls against the fence with weak swings like montero. I hate this thread and i feel we are going to regret it when montero does become Cabrera like.

    This is the Cano trade that didn’t happen IMO.

  20. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 8:50 am

    fangraphs article ……usually they are on spot, not saying all the time but better than most, nice read

  21. willwill January 14th, 2012 at 8:51 am

    thread=trade typo

    heh

  22. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 8:51 am

    OK Jack.

    Point is the Splitter is a very good pitch and should not be ignored.

    Especially when you have 2 guys on your staff who are expert at throwing it.

    Dig it !

    ;)

    YF-

    That may be the case with Felix but Pineda now belongs to us and we have 2 guys who make great use of Mr. Split.

    I’d like Hughes and Pineda to make it 4.

    My bet is that if they learn it their games go to the next level.

  23. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 8:52 am

    willwill January 14th, 2012 at 8:50 am
    Phil hughes may not be roger clemens, but he also wasn’t slapping balls against the fence with weak swings like montero. I hate this thread and i feel we are going to regret it when montero does become Cabrera like.

    This is the Cano trade that didn’t happen IMO.

    ———————————-
    cut the cord…the kid had no position on this team

  24. Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 8:52 am

    I think Cashman and the Yankees planned to anounce the trade first, hoping the signing of Kuroda would mitigate some of the horrible indigestion most of us felt when it was announced that the major hitting prospect the Mariners had indeed obtained was Jesus Montero, and it wasn’t for Felix Hernandez!! :)

  25. blake January 14th, 2012 at 8:52 am

    “is Ethier a decent OFer”

    No….not really.

    Trader,

    For enough $$ maybe……they coukd still let him play 1B some…..heck even work Tex in to RF a little maybe. If Boras can’t get the deal he’s looking for longterm……then would getting the highest AAV short term be a way to save face?

  26. RadioKev January 14th, 2012 at 8:53 am

    MTU,

    I’m pretty sure the splitter is a feel pitch. You can’t just make a guy throw it. If they like it, they like it, if they don’t, they don’t.

  27. Stoneburner January 14th, 2012 at 8:55 am

    Soooooo – guesses at new Yankees top 10 milb:

    1. Banuelos
    2. Betances
    3. Sanchez
    4. Campos
    5. Williams
    6. Santana
    7. Bichette
    8. Murphy
    9. Heathcott
    10. Personally I like Montgomery b/c of the filthy stuff – Tyler Austin here? Gumbs? Bird? Warren/Phelphs/Mitcheel group? etc. . . . .

    Still have some pieces – more in the lower minors coming – which is good for the future – and still some high chips in the high minors (Banny and Dellin)

  28. yankee21 January 14th, 2012 at 8:55 am

    Through this trade of Montero and Noesi for Pineda Yankees just spoke loud and clear what they think of the long term prospects of Hughes, Nova and even Betances. If Cashman truly believed as he said before that Betances is the best pitching prospect the Yankees have ever had he wouldn’t have traded for Pineda. If he truly believed that Hughes could step up and potentially be that #2 he wouldn’t have traded for Pineda. If he believed Nova could take the next step again he wouldn’t have made this trade.

    Just goes to show you that what Cashman says when it comes to NY young pitchers the best thing to do is not believe it.

  29. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 8:55 am

    The leagues worst nightmares have come true.

    The Yankees can hit adequately and have the pitching to give them fits.

    As if that wasn’t bad enough the have a top rated Farm and lot’s of money to spend in the future.

    What a freakin’ great time to be a Yankee fan !!!!

    :)

  30. yankeefeminista January 14th, 2012 at 8:56 am

    MTU, at least Pineda threw the change @6+%, it was a power change and he was 1/2 run above average with it. If we are going to develop someone else’s pitchers, we have are going to have to deal with some growing pains.

  31. CashmanSUX January 14th, 2012 at 8:56 am

    jacksquat January 14th, 2012 at 8:48 am
    After throwing a full year of MLB I don’t think anyone is a “prospect” anymore. Young, yes, but not a prospect.
    =============================

    Perhaps… But he’s also not what Cashman insisted was “the only thing he’d trade Montero for” — a proven top of the rotation starter… He has the POTENTIAL to be that, but he’s not there yet, which is why I still believe “prospect” is a valid term.

  32. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 8:57 am

    Not true at all.

    The splitter is NOT a feel pitch.

    That’s exactly my point.

    The circle change is a “feel” pitch.

    It’s way easier to learn and master than the cc.

    That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.

    ;)

  33. yankee21 January 14th, 2012 at 8:57 am

    blake, I agree, I think Fielder coming to NY for 1-2 years would be huge and he could leverage that into a mega deal as a FA.

    Before that though they need to clear a little salary, why is AJ still on the Yankees?

  34. Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 8:59 am

    If he believed Nova could take the next step again he wouldn’t have made this trade.
    ———————–
    Yankee21-
    Hopefully there are no lingering concerns about Nova’s forearm/elbow.

  35. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:00 am

    YF-

    I’m ready for that.

    But the Yankees are gonna have to become more effective at teaching their young guys the art and science of pitching.

    And at developing them all the way through the system.

    Rothschild is a pro.

    Now let’s upgrade the MiLB system.

    Quality is job 1.

    ;)

  36. PacoDooley January 14th, 2012 at 9:00 am

    Pineda is arguably better than the other guys that have signed deals or been traded this offseason, or at least he has a much brighter upside. So if they were going to trade a guy without a position to fill on this team (no, they do not need a DH) then this is the best deal they could possibly make. They hang onto all of their major pitching talent while adding a huge front end starter. This rotation can be amazing and relatively cheap (other than the preimium they pay CC) in a couple of years. This team has been some decent pitching away from a WS win for most of the last decade (obviously not including 2009), so who can argue with them stockpiling top end pitching talent??

  37. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 9:01 am

    yankee21 January 14th, 2012 at 8:57 am
    blake, I agree, I think Fielder coming to NY for 1-2 years would be huge and he could leverage that into a mega deal as a FA.

    Before that though they need to clear a little salary, why is AJ still on the Yankees?

    —————————————–
    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$….don’t think they want to eat the money they are paying him to trade him, I for one still believes in AJ but

  38. CashmanSUX January 14th, 2012 at 9:01 am

    “This is the Cano trade that didn’t happen IMO”

    ============================

    That’s absurd. Cano is a dynamic defensive player, too.

  39. Frozen Rope January 14th, 2012 at 9:02 am

    no reason to be excited about the pineda deal. this organization has proven to be exceptionally incompetent with developing young pitchers (Hughes, Joba) or evaluating their talent (Kennedy) so I’m sure they’ll screw up Pineda too. He got off to a great start last year, but away from Safeco and playing in this division he could be just shockingly average at best.

    would have been nice to see what Montero could have done in this lineup at DH though I do agree with the Yankees view he would never stick as a catcher

  40. Frozen Rope January 14th, 2012 at 9:04 am

    No more Montero taking up the DH spot, suddenly the Yankees could use a veteran bat. And Posada isn’t being considered why?? I’d still take him in the playoffs over Arod, just look at the lds last year.

  41. jacksquat January 14th, 2012 at 9:04 am

    Usually a guy will pick either a split or a change. I hated how a change felt and much preferred a split. It’s just a pitcher to pitcher thing. In that regard it is a “feel” issue.

  42. rl1856 January 14th, 2012 at 9:08 am

    Looks like AJ gets traded and Hughes/Garcia/Nova compete for 2 spots in the rotation.

    I am sorry to see JM go and I think he will become a top AL hitter. Silver lining is that the DH slot can be used to give other players a defensive day off without having to worry abt getting AB for Monterro.

    Jury will be out on these trades for at least a year. If Noesi develops into a middle of the rotation starter and JM becomes a solid AL hitter, while Pineda does become a solid #2 who wins ?

  43. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:08 am

    OK Jack.

    I gotcha now.

    With your definition sure.

    :)

  44. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 9:08 am

    Frozen Rope January 14th, 2012 at 9:04 am
    No more Montero taking up the DH spot, suddenly the Yankees could use a veteran bat. And Posada isn’t being considered why?? I’d still take him in the playoffs over Arod, just look at the lds last year
    —————————————————-
    let jorge retire it’s time, he can’t run anymore ….3 hits to score from 1st base…unless they make another big slpash I’m on board for a Jones/Pena split DH

  45. blake January 14th, 2012 at 9:09 am

    I agree it was nice to see Rich in NJ back!

  46. CashmanSUX January 14th, 2012 at 9:09 am

    It never ceases to amaze me how many fans treat their prospects like absolutes and sure things.

    What if Montero, impossible as it seems, is not quite Miguel Cabrera… You know, like virtually every hitting prospect is not Miguel Cabrera???

    What if Montero, while good, turns out to be… Say… Carlos Lee???

    Anybody have a problem with this trade then??? … Stop guzzling the kool-aid on prospects.

  47. Chip January 14th, 2012 at 9:10 am

    A few thoughts:

    1. I love these moves and here’s why – as much as I think Montero can become Miguel Cabrera offensively Jayson Stark pointed something out…forget the fact that the Yankees were dangling Montero in different trades – if the Yankees thought Montero could catch why didn’t they even entertain the thought of calling him up when Martin got hurt last year? Is it because that despite what they’ve been saying they really don’t believe he can be an effective catcher? Who knows. But if Montero is a DH – even a tremendous Edgar Martinez type DH – you have to take the young potential ACE over a DH. And Campos is no slouch from what I hear either – probably jumps into the top 10 of Yankee prospects. Plus (and you know I’m skeptical of Yankee prospects) but next year (2013) the rotation could easily be CC, Pineda, Nova, Banuelos, Betances. I don’t mind parting with Noesi because, quite frankly the Yankees have guys who are better than him.

    As a baseball fan, I love this deal – it wasn’t a salary dump where the Yankees bought a player – it was an old school high risk high reward deal where both teams used a position of strength to upgrade a weakness. Homers will hate it because they think we should fleece every GM in every deal – but it doesn’t work that way.

    2. I even like the Kuroda signing. I was against him if he was coming in here as a number 2 at 12 – 14 mil, but as a number 4 at 10 mil I think that’s great value.

    3. Happiest Yankees: Francisco Cervelli and Austin Romine

    4. Most miserable Yankee: Freddy Garcia. Barring something nuts I think Garcia just became a $5 mil long reliever – sure it’s possible he beats out Hughes and AJ for the 5th spot – but I think in an ideal world the Yankees want Hughes to be the 5th starter. Though that brings me to…

    5. So the question is what’s next? Do you sign a DH (Vlad, Carlos Pena, Johnny Damon) do you make Alex the DH and use some combination of Eric Chavez, Eduardo Nunez and Brandon Laird at 3b? Do you let Jorge Vazquez try to win the job in spring training? Do you sign Cespedes and move Swisher to DH? Or do you trade AJ for a high priced slugger (Carlos Lee) or Hughes and a prospect for a young slugger (Andre Ethier)?

    I don’t think they’ll open the wallet for Prince on a short term deal – given how much convincing it took for Hal to open up the budget for Kuroda.

    I’m not sure how I would feel about Carlos Pena – he’s an all or nothing bat and that can really hurt you at times, plus it would make the team feel very left handed. I would love to do AJ for Lee (with the Yankees picking up the difference) but I’m not sure why the Astros would want AJ – even at no cost. I want no part of dealing AJ for Soriano – though I think Sori would have a rebirth coming “home” to the Yankees. AJ for Jason Bay would be an interesting deal – unless Bay’s option vests, it’s a revenue neutral deal – would the Yankees and Mets do it?

    Needless to say – I feel there’s another shoe yet to drop – it might not happen until spring training – but the Yankees aren’t going into the season with both AJ and Hughes on this roster.

    Of course I could be wrong – the Yankees might deal Nova and a prospect for a young elite hitter (Justin Upton?) Who knows.

  48. Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 9:11 am

    AJ still has a 10 team partial NTC. Since his wife doesn’t fly, maybe a crosstown trade to the Mets for Jason Bay would be considered if the monies could be evened out.

  49. Chip January 14th, 2012 at 9:12 am

    blake January 14th, 2012 at 8:44 am
    What about an Ethier/Jones DH platoon?

    —————–

    Hughes for Ethier makes a ton of sense for both teams.

  50. Chip January 14th, 2012 at 9:13 am

    Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 9:11 am
    AJ still has a 10 team partial NTC. Since his wife doesn’t fly, maybe a crosstown trade to the Mets for Jason Bay would be considered if the monies could be evened out.

    ————-

    I was thinking that – it would be a little bit of a salary dump for the Mets since Bay’s option will likely vest – but it is so out of character for the Yankees and Mets to make a big deal like that.

  51. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:14 am

    AJ needs to disappear.

    Especially now.

    ;)

  52. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:15 am

    I would love to have Eithier.

  53. blake January 14th, 2012 at 9:15 am

    I like the Yankees rotation now….quite a bit……its a great mix of upside and depth and when you combine it with what they have in the minors and pen its one of if not the best organizational staff in the game.

    However…..I think they need a bat. Their lineup carries age risk and the #1 guy to mitigate that was just traded.

    If you’re going to make this kind of deal to bolster one area of your club……then you’re taking a big gamble by leaving risk in another area (the lineup) IMO.

    Right now Imstill unsure if the Yankees are better, worse….or the same as they would have been in 2012 without making this deal……adding Fielder or anither impact bat makes it a clear win.

  54. Carlo January 14th, 2012 at 9:16 am

    The flexibility that this deal gives us as it pertains to our ability to continue to improve this team for the short and/or long term is really the silver lining.

  55. Frozen Rope January 14th, 2012 at 9:16 am

    now is this trade confirmed? or will seattle do an end run around us at the last minute like last time?

  56. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 9:16 am

    Montero didn’t make the roster out of ST when FC was hurt thar tell you something right there, he wasn’t up all season with the big team until Sept and when he got here he only caught 3 games….once he got here his stock rose some, didn’t play winter ball because they didn’t want to take a chance of him getting hurt because they planned on trading him this off season…..

  57. blake January 14th, 2012 at 9:17 am

    What if Cashman acquired Campos to flip him in another deal?

  58. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:18 am

    Blake-

    Pitching wins championships.

    The Yankees are way better IMO.

    They have plenty of O with a staff like this, and they now can compete in the PS.

    If they just tweak the O a bit they will be the team to beat.

    They may be already.

  59. Carlo January 14th, 2012 at 9:18 am

    I’m pretty sure I’m the only one who thinks Burnett could be additive this year. Unless he is flipped for a like contract impact bat, I hope they keep him and let him battle with hughes and garcia.

  60. Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 9:18 am

    CashmanSUX January 14th, 2012 at 9:09 am

    It never ceases to amaze me how many fans treat their prospects like absolutes and sure things.

    What if Montero, impossible as it seems, is not quite Miguel Cabrera… You know, like virtually every hitting prospect is not Miguel Cabrera???

    What if Montero, while good, turns out to be… Say… Carlos Lee???

    Anybody have a problem with this trade then??? … Stop guzzling the kool-aid on prospects.

    —————————————-

    What if Pineda turns about to be Carmona while Jesus becomes Lee is it still a good deal?

  61. Carlo January 14th, 2012 at 9:20 am

    MTU – 100% agree. I felt like I was the only one enthused by this deal last night. Glad to see some cooler heads arriving this AM.

  62. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:20 am

    Carlo-

    You are one of a small minority that is for sure.

    Especially after yesterday’s events.

  63. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 9:20 am

    Carlo January 14th, 2012 at 9:16 am
    The flexibility that this deal gives us as it pertains to our ability to continue to improve this team for the short and/or long term is really the silver lining.

    —————————-
    Carlo……flights out to Vegas from the northeast just rose the last week, and long term not good .. looks like I’m a Borgata,Mohegan Sun guy for a while……going to miss the whole Vegas thing though

  64. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 9:21 am

    Carlo January 14th, 2012 at 9:18 am
    I’m pretty sure I’m the only one who thinks Burnett could be additive this year. Unless he is flipped for a like contract impact bat, I hope they keep him and let him battle with hughes and garcia.

    —————————-
    I’m a AJ guy

  65. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:21 am

    Carlo-

    I meant with respect to Burnett.

  66. CashmanSUX January 14th, 2012 at 9:21 am

    since the media has now, finally, caught on to what I’ve been saying about Cashman so often trying to trade Montero, Here’s something else to keep in mind….

    It was not only was was making Montero available in all those different trades, it was also that all those other GM’s kept saying “no.” kept finding other prospects they liked better.

    There’s a message in those facts.

  67. Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 9:21 am

    Chip

    ARod is not ready to become a full time DH. Cespedes will hinder the Yankees going forward in 2014 as they try to stay under the 2014 LT threshold.

    I think Cano might find himself the logical replacement at 3rd for ARod at some point in the future anyway.

    Have to go. Predictions As usual can change on a dime: :)

    Got one right as Kuroda did sign for less to be a Yankee.

    Fielder still to the Nats on a 6-7 year deal with an opt out.

    Darvish signs with the Rangers for no less than 11-12M/year on a 5-6 year deal.

    Cespedes gets big bucks from the Marlins, but doesn’t turn out to be the second coming of Bo Jackson.

    Yankees sign a lefty FA bat to platoon at DH with Andruw Jones[Kotchman, Pena, Damon] or quite possibly trade with the Royals for Billy Butler

    Have to go. Good day all. Until later.

  68. 108 stitches January 14th, 2012 at 9:23 am

    Would like to be a fly on the wall when Cashman, Stick Michael, Mark Newman, and Billy Eppler were looking over the merits of the deal to present the deal to Hal Stenbrenner. Montero would have caught 40 games as a backup catcher. Lots of hitting upside ….. no question about it but a Mickey Mantle he’s not.
    Cashman isn’t finsihed yet and is also in a sweeter postion than any GM if a player is needed when the 7/31 trading deadline approaches.
    No surprise if Cashman now attempts at least a bad contract for a bad contract by dealing Burnett to the NL for either Carlos Lee or even Alfonso Soriano. There is now simply no room for Burnett on the roster with the addition of Pineda and Kuroda. Hughes and Garcia will battle it out for the No. 5 spot in the rotation in spring training.

  69. Carlo January 14th, 2012 at 9:24 am

    Joeman – only going to get worse this year as airlines are taking out capacity. Revel is opening in AC in the spring so that could be interesting / worth checking out. I’m in vegas next week for work……room rates are up as well.

  70. djsunyc January 14th, 2012 at 9:25 am

    brian cashman is the egg mcmuffin of gm’s…

    all y’all that hate the trade – stop actin like chicken littles or exit stage left.

    there’s no telling how it’s gonna work out for either team. appreciate the guts it took to make a move like this and hope for the best.

    if you venture out to fan sites for all other teams, the overwhelming majority say the yankees won this…

  71. LGY January 14th, 2012 at 9:26 am

    Still in shock especially since the trade was the first sports related news I had seen in over a week.

    Really hate losing Montero, but what’s done is done. At least I really like the pitcher they acquired for baseball reasons and on a personal level as well.

    And of course, KURODA!!!

  72. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 9:27 am

    Carlo January 14th, 2012 at 9:24 am
    Joeman – only going to get worse this year as airlines are taking out capacity. Revel is opening in AC in the spring so that could be interesting / worth checking out. I’m in vegas next week for work……room rates are up as well.

    ———————————————————–
    didn’t know about the new casino where’s it located……don’t pay for rooms so I make out there but I’m a pig…..can’t stand paying those big air fares

  73. yankeefeminista January 14th, 2012 at 9:27 am

    MTU, yes, adding Pineda will be a litmus test for how we approach developing young starting pitchers. God forbid he have a rough sophomore year. Interesting to see what Aldred with do for the Killer B’s in AAA.

    And I love the arms too, but don’t underrate what we have lost in terms of Montero’s bat. That combination of average and power is not easily replaceable especially in the long run. This lineup is flawed, can’t hit lefties: a paltry slash line of .255/ .336/.435 and our inability to make contact in the playoffs is a grave concern. If Alex isn’t Alex, we have some troubles ahead. People are overrating this offense.

  74. Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 9:28 am

    all y’all that hate the trade – stop actin like chicken littles or exit stage left.

    —————————————

    Basically if you don’t like the deal shut up

  75. Carlo January 14th, 2012 at 9:28 am

    I’m hoping they don’t deal hughes in a bigger deal for a bat. I hate trading guys at their rock bottom value and that’s essentially where he is right now.

  76. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 9:28 am

    yankeefeminista January 14th, 2012 at 9:27 am
    MTU, yes, adding Pineda will be a litmus test for how we approach developing young starting pitchers. God forbid he have a rough sophomore year. Interesting to see what Aldred with do for the Killer B’s in AAA.

    And I love the arms too, but don’t underrate what we have lost in terms of Montero’s bat. That combination of average and power is not easily replaceable especially in the long run. This lineup is flawed, can’t hit lefties: a paltry slash line of .255/ .336/.435 and our inability to make contact in the playoffs is a grave concern. If Alex isn’t Alex, we have some troubles ahead. People are overrating this offense.
    ———————————————–
    there’s a need to bring in a BIG hitter & it could happen

  77. blake January 14th, 2012 at 9:30 am

    As a Yankee fan who follows the minors pretty closely……its tough to evaluate this deal with without some level of bias……I’ve been following Montero for years.

    Have to focus on what they got rather than what they gave for my sanity.

  78. Carlo January 14th, 2012 at 9:31 am

    Joeman – next door to showboat (north). Started building it 5 years ago. Ran out of money. Morgan stanley owns it now and finanlly financed the balance last year. As for paying for rooms, I have to when I go for work…..can’t take the comps anymore.

  79. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:31 am

    YT-

    Points well taken.

    I think they’ll tweak the O.

    :)

  80. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:32 am

    I meant YF. sorry.

  81. jr1212 January 14th, 2012 at 9:34 am

    First time post, long time reader

    Before I give my take on the trade would like to say this is the best site for Yankee news, rumors and opinion

    On to the good stuff. There is nothing better, besides winning when following the Yanks than to see a homegrown player blossom and become one of the best player in the league. I was hoping to follow Montero the same way I follow Jeter, Posada, Mo and Cano. Since Montero signed with yanks I would read all the scouting reports and analysis about him. When he came up in September I was more excited to see his at bats than any others. Looking at him play I could see him become a star and soon. There is no doubt this kid is
    gonna hit.

    Saying that I think Cash had to make this deal. Just think of all the ELITE young arms we now have. Pineda, Banuelos, Betances, Robertson, Campos and hopefully Depaula. Thats not even counting arms like Joba, Hughes and Nova. Elite Pitching is the hardest thing to obtain. Even if just two become legit then the yankees will b in good shape. Just imaging CC, Pineda and Banuelos leading the rotation in two years.

    It hurts to give talent like Montero but u have to give to get. Im pretty sure most mariners fans dont like the trade..

    Anyways hopefully it works out.GO YANKEES!!!!!

  82. austinmac January 14th, 2012 at 9:35 am

    As much as I hate to lose Montero, Pineda has fabulous potential. He looked like Felix when I saw him. High end fastball and slider with control. A young guy like him can add an improved change.

    Risky trade but worth the risk.

    I have advocated, as have others, Kuroda at one year. He is certainly more of a reliable starter than probably anyone they had but CC.

    Last year the team struggled more against right handers with Swisher and Tex hitting far better from the right side. The hoped for batting addition should be left handed. I can easily see Damon
    or Pena. I dream of Prince but no way.

  83. jacksquat January 14th, 2012 at 9:35 am

    yankeefeminista January 14th, 2012 at 9:27 am
    MTU, yes, adding Pineda will be a litmus test for how we approach developing young starting pitchers. God forbid he have a rough sophomore year. Interesting to see what Aldred with do for the Killer B’s in AAA.

    And I love the arms too, but don’t underrate what we have lost in terms of Montero’s bat. That combination of average and power is not easily replaceable especially in the long run. This lineup is flawed, can’t hit lefties: a paltry slash line of .255/ .336/.435 and our inability to make contact in the playoffs is a grave concern. If Alex isn’t Alex, we have some troubles ahead. People are overrating this offense.

    —-

    You mean can’t hit righties? The Yankees hit significantly better vs lhp than rhp last year. Jeter, Tex and Swish notably hit much better vs lhp. Cano and Granderson hit very respectably vs lhp.

  84. djsunyc January 14th, 2012 at 9:36 am

    Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 9:28 am
    all y’all that hate the trade – stop actin like chicken littles or exit stage left.

    —————————————

    Basically if you don’t like the deal shut up

    ———–

    i understand the emotional connection. i just don’t get the ego that makes one think they know what the outcome of this trade will be. there’s no telling who wins this deal b/c they are both so young and have very little mlb experience.

    just be happy we have a young potential stud and hope he turns into one. everyone talking like we traded away mantle needs to get a reality check. he might turn into mantle but do go around telling people he is before he does it.

  85. yankeefeminista January 14th, 2012 at 9:36 am

    MTU, they have no choice. Nothing coming down the pike in terms of O. Could we see a short term fix, like Pena’s bat vs. righties? or another big deal for some offensive youth?

    Blake, it also hurts because the bat is so darn special!

    Catch you all later. Keep the faith!

  86. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 9:38 am

    “Ill never shake the feeling that we lst something special that most have never seen. A chance to impact games daily. ”

    That.

    I’m going with what blake just said and what a lot of others have to be feeling. (Iwoke up with a pit in my stomach and then remembered why.)

    Last night when I heard the announcement over the radio, the first thing I heard was that the Yankees had gotten Pineda and Kuroda. I was thrilled/amazed by the Pineda news and accepting of the Kuroda news. (I don’t tend to dig my heels in after the Yanks make an aquisition of which I was theretofore not particularly fond!)

    But then I heard who the Yankees traded. And I didn’t know about Noesi until I got back home and read it here.

    I too am about pitching – and defense. That has always meant a heck of a lot more to me than offense.

    But this. Montero. Sorry, I’m still sick about this one. Not about the get, but surely about the give.

    I adjust quickly. Always.

    Except for now.

    :(

  87. Carlo January 14th, 2012 at 9:39 am

    Free agent bats this offseason: fielder, pujols, reyes, beltran….to name a few.

    Free agent arms this offseason: wilson, buehrle, darvish.

    For those giddy for cain and hamels next year…both are discussing extensions with their teams.

    Star bats come to mkt, star arms do so with far less frequency. This move addresses that.

  88. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:39 am

    YF-

    Either is possible.

    That’s the good thing.

    ;)

  89. spidanyc January 14th, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Freddy Garcia, Romine, Hughes and Phelps for Garza

  90. Gary January 14th, 2012 at 9:41 am

    Trade bodes well for the Giants, Yankees are pulling a 2 minute drill in the 4th quarter and getting on the board. Hope Eli follows suit on Sunday against the Cheeseheads.

    MTU I still say we can get rid of AJ if we can Nick too :-)

    Hopefully the board will move beyond the guys that are gone and wish them well and start to focus on the new guys who are here. I probably know better but I hope it isn’t a daily debate with the boxes from the previous day on Jesus, Nosei, Kuroda, and Pineda

  91. joeman January 14th, 2012 at 9:46 am

    like to see Romine the backup catcher on this team this year…..keep RM fresh

  92. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:46 am

    Gary-

    Jesus is very talented.

    Can’t blame people for feeling a sense of loss, or betrayal.

    That’s the fan’s right.

    As a Manager Cashman has to do what he thinks is in the best interest of the Team, and to do so w/o emotion.

    This move will define him.

    That’s for sure.

    Me. I would have preferred moving Jesus for a guy like Kershaw.

    Established.

    That wasn’t happening though.

    There is no denying Pineda’s potential though.

    He could develop into a # 1.

    I hope he does.

  93. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 9:47 am

    austinmac – I think getting Pineda was a HUGE score for the Yanks.

    I’m not worried about Pineda at all.

    This is just one of those, as blake said, where you have to focus on what you got and not on what you lost.

    I guess I’m saying that if Pineda were an FA and the Yanks spent a ton of money on him, I would consider it money well spent.

    I’m just having difficulty with the Montero part. I don’t remember seeing any of our kids come up and do what he did, just about every time he held the bat in his hand. (I know Shane Spencer looked like he was going to be special too but Montero was solid.)

  94. Gary January 14th, 2012 at 9:47 am

    austinmac January 14th, 2012 at 9:35 am
    As much as I hate to lose Montero, Pineda has fabulous potential. He looked like Felix when I saw him. High end fastball and slider with control. A young guy like him can add an improved change.

    Risky trade but worth the risk.

    I have advocated, as have others, Kuroda at one year. He is certainly more of a reliable starter than probably anyone they had but CC.

    Last year the team struggled more against right handers with Swisher and Tex hitting far better from the right side. The hoped for batting addition should be left handed. I can easily see Damon
    or Pena. I dream of Prince but no way.

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    Austin, I’m hoping both those guys aren’t pulling everything insight. I think a slight adjustment in their style could translate into a big gain in their stats. Nick has to stop trying to hit everything out of the park and not get consistently behind in the count. I don’t know the exact stats but he is almost dead meat up there with 2 strikes.

    Yanks won’t pay that money for Prince to DH.

  95. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:49 am

    At least today when I’m out hiking I won’t be up on top of a mountain when something big happens.

    :)

  96. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 9:50 am

    MTU, I feel like staying under my covers today for a few reasons. Frigid temps is just one of them.

    :(

  97. Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 9:51 am

    jr1212 January 14th, 2012 at 9:34 am

    ————————–

    The Yankees still have to develop those guys which I don’t think they can.

  98. CashmanSUX January 14th, 2012 at 9:52 am

    spidanyc January 14th, 2012 at 9:40 am
    Freddy Garcia, Romine, Hughes and Phelps for Garza
    =========================

    Is that a joke?

    I assure you the Cubs will be laughing.

  99. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Unless I am misremembering, I don’t remember the Yanks ever going after a big bat just for the purpose of DH. Did the Sux get big fatso as their DH or was big fasto brought in to play a position originally, does anyone remember?

  100. CashmanSUX January 14th, 2012 at 9:54 am

    Angle that hasn’t been discussed.

    This trade also tells you all you need to know about what the Yankees think of the Phelpses and Warrens of this world.

    #common

  101. jacksquat January 14th, 2012 at 9:55 am

    Plus, we definitely don’t need more pitching now.

    I am off to kidnap Banuelos until the season starts. :)

  102. Chip January 14th, 2012 at 9:55 am

    I’ll toss out a deal that I know won’t happen:

    AJ for Werth

    Here’s why it makes sense for the Yankees:

    1. It actually saves the Yankees some short term money. Werth is due $29 mil over the next two years whereas AJ is due $33 mil, plus it means the Yankees don’t have to commit more money to Swisher next offseason.

    2. Werth would probably rebound nicely going from “the man” to back to being a support player in a deeper lineup.

    Here’s why it makes sense for the Nats:

    1. Clears RF for Harper

    2. Opens up long term payroll so they can sign Prince

    3. Adding a veteran to a very young rotation for no cost

  103. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2012 at 9:56 am

    Like I said last night this was a deal the Yanks had to make.

    A rotation of CC, Nova, Garcia, Hughes and AJ just had too much potential to go down the drain this year. It could have necessitated a big play for Hamels next year, which would wreak havoc with the Yank plans to get under the luxury tax threshold in 2014 and who might not even be available to begin with.

    Meanwhile Montero’s wasn’t going to catch much if at all this year, making it very questionable whether he could develop enough to be a full time catcher down the road. DH is the cheapest position to replace production, and the Yanks needed the DH spot to rotate their aging stars through. That’s why I always thought the Yanks would eventually trade Montero’s.

    Getting the young cost-controlled pitcher for Montero makes so much more sense than trading him for an established expensive pitcher like Cliff Lee or even King Felix.

    Hurray for the Yanks and Cashman today.

  104. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 9:56 am

    “I’m pretty sure I’m the only one who thinks Burnett could be additive this year.”

    carlo, add me to the very small list. I’ve never given up hope on AJ.

  105. CashmanSUX January 14th, 2012 at 9:56 am

    Did the Sux get big fatso as their DH or was big fasto brought in to play a position
    ============================

    Basically got him off the scrap heap… Certainly wasn’t a “big money” deal… Played first originally.

  106. MTU January 14th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    Trisha-

    Time wounds all heals.

    Gotta get ready.

    Stay warm and order in a nice spicy meal.

    ;)

  107. jr1212 January 14th, 2012 at 9:58 am

    @ Best to Ever do it

    thats part of the risk. Hopefully now that Larry Rothschild is here we can see a better reward than in the past

  108. 108 stitches January 14th, 2012 at 9:58 am

    Cashman also had an eye toward 2013 and beyond. Warren, Phelps, and Mitchell are still around as is Romine. There’s also Marshall, Campos and Stoneburner among others at AA that will advance.
    Fans will pay attention to Seattle box scores to see how Montero and Noesi are progressing.
    Expect Larry Rothschild to see Michael Pineda as the kind of pitcher he can work with.

  109. Out Pitch January 14th, 2012 at 9:58 am

    If the Yanks were so desperate for pitching that the new guys are the number 2 and 3 starters, how could they not have done this deal?

    Really, and for a guy who can’t field his position.

    Obviously, no one knows the outcome, but the Anti-Cashman’s are out of control on this one!

  110. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 9:59 am

    MTU, when the thought of a spicy meal does nothing to perk up the corners or the mouth or make the eyes shine, you know depression is setting in.

    ;)

  111. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 9:59 am

    Carlo January 14th, 2012 at 9:16 am

    The flexibility that this deal gives us as it pertains to our ability to continue to improve this team for the short and/or long term is really the silver lining.

    ********

    EXACTLY. This move sets up the Yankees for upgrades, if they choose, in LF, RF and DH. The team is locked and loaded now in the rotation short term and long term. The rotation beyond CC will be cost-controlled moving forward. They can trade some of their pitching depth now for CHEAP upgrades in LF and RF and the bullpen even.

    Other than Prince Fielder, who would the Yankees have to spend big money on?

    They could’ve made the budget fit for 2014 by signing Hamels, they can do the same if Prince is signed. There is plenty, PLENTY of surplus now for cheap upgrades in LF, RF and he bullpen.

  112. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:01 am

    Out Pitch, I think there are a lot more just feeling the sting of losing Montero right now than there are outright anti-Cashman.

    It’s possible to really like what you got but to really feel sad about what you gave up.

    (raises her hand)

  113. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:01 am

    Joeman January 14th, 2012 at 9:16 am

    Montero didn’t make the roster out of ST when FC was hurt thar tell you something right there, he wasn’t up all season with the big team until Sept and when he got here he only caught 3 games….once he got here his stock rose some, didn’t play winter ball because they didn’t want to take a chance of him getting hurt because they planned on trading him this off season…..

    **************

    Spot on. The front office was leveraging Montero for front-end pitching all along.

  114. CashmanSUX January 14th, 2012 at 10:02 am

    By the way, might want to tap the brakes on “Yankees focused on getting under 189 by ’14″ stuff…

    If they made the reported hard push last night for King Felix (offered any three of Montero, banuelose, Betances, nova) that means they were willing to add ANOTHER $20 million+ per year salary for next decade to what they already have.

  115. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    CashmanSUX,

    This is true. The rotation is set. The biggest bat on the horizon in 2012 or 2013 is Prince Fielder.

  116. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:05 am

    “Basically got him off the scrap heap… Certainly wasn’t a “big money” deal… Played first originally.”

    That’s kind of what I was getting at in thinking about DH. Fatso played first. He morphed into a milkshaking DH.

    I guess it’s possible that the Yankees go get a DH. But wouldn’t that be a first for them, if they went out and got someone totally for the purposes of DH. Or is that what they did with Nick Johnson a few seasons ago?

    I’ll tell you this move has thrown me for a loop.

  117. Joe from Long Island January 14th, 2012 at 10:06 am

    I wonder how many phone calls Cash has gotten from other teams looking for starting pitching? I wonder what’s been offered, on both ends?

    If you look at the Yanks’ main divisional competition to be Tampa, at least for the next few years, all this young pitching Cash has lined up puts the Yanks in a good position vs. the rays.

    Just daydreaming – but signing Chavez and Pena would give them lefty bats off the bench, with Jones and Nunez being the right sided bats. I bet Nunez sees a lot of innings in the OF come February and March.

  118. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:07 am

    Do you think just maybe they passed on Beltran because their plan for DH is more significant?

  119. Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 10:07 am

    jr1212 January 14th, 2012 at 9:58 am

    @ Best to Ever do it

    thats part of the risk. Hopefully now that Larry Rothschild is here we can see a better reward than in the past

    ——————-

    Hopefully that’s the case

  120. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:08 am

    Logically I understand it. You don’t get without giving. Logically it makes total sense.

    Emotionally? Well that’s a horse of a very different color.

  121. Joe from Long Island January 14th, 2012 at 10:08 am

    Spot on. The front office was leveraging Montero for front-end pitching all along.

    And, if it didn’t work out, they would have been very content to let Montero hit at dh.

    Bret – where were you last night? I figured you’d be besides yourself.

  122. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:08 am

    Bret, do you think it’s possible that they don’t have any major plans for DH?

  123. jacksquat January 14th, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Chip January 14th, 2012 at 9:55 am
    I’ll toss out a deal that I know won’t happen:

    AJ for Werth

    Here’s why it makes sense for the Yankees:

    1. It actually saves the Yankees some short term money. Werth is due $29 mil over the next two years whereas AJ is due $33 mil, plus it means the Yankees don’t have to commit more money to Swisher next offseason.

    2. Werth would probably rebound nicely going from “the man” to back to being a support player in a deeper lineup.

    Here’s why it makes sense for the Nats:

    1. Clears RF for Harper

    2. Opens up long term payroll so they can sign Prince

    3. Adding a veteran to a very young rotation for no cost

    I would do that if Werth had only 2, maybe 3 years left.

    But man you are nuts. Werth is signed for 6 more years through age 38, salaries of 13/16/20/21/21/21. If Werth doesn’t bounce back that is a big albatross contract.

  124. Joe from Long Island January 14th, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Bret – I think they passed on Beltran partley for that reason, partly because of the medical issues. Personally, I think there’s another shoe to fall. AJ and possibly Freddy are in for a change in scenery, maybe with others.

    I might be wrong, but I’d bet Hughes doesn’t get moved, because he’s still young enough to offer much more upside than either of those two, and his cost is still lower than either. Depends on the deal, of course.

  125. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:12 am

    Joe,

    I was here at the very end. I read two entire threads and stopped at the late one because it was 500 posts long and I didn’t want to lose too much time. I had to jump in and open my big fat mouth. But I did read something like 500 posts before that. I took note of your contributions and found that you were one of the only posters making sense. Prufrock lost his mind and Jerkface whined in numbers as usual. The threads were hilarious. G. Franco promised us Montero would not get traded, he would go nowhere and the notion he would get traded was a fantasy. He led us on. He LIED to us. This trade is ALL his fault.

    :lol:

    Also great posts from Joeman, Carlo, CashmanSux and Pat M. last night. MTU, Trader and Blake were on the fence but they’ll come around.

  126. spidanyc January 14th, 2012 at 10:14 am

    How about one more trade and we call it an offseason…..

    Nova, Hughes, Romine & Phelps for Cain and the Yankees potential 2013 rotations looks like this:

    CC
    Cain
    Pineda
    Banuelos
    Betances

  127. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:14 am

    trisha – true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:08 am

    Bret, do you think it’s possible that they don’t have any major plans for DH?

    ************

    Nope. Cliff Lee money is still sitting their burning a hole in Hal’s pocket and Prince is a bigger ticket draw than Lee could ever dream. He’s friends with CC from their time on the Brewers and they talked at the All-Star break. Hal just met with Boras before this deal went down. Prince Fielder is stil out there for money alone and it’s getting late. They don’t have to buy Hamels or Cain now that Pineda is here.

  128. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:18 am

    Sign Prince for DH.

    Trade bait for cheap upgrades in LF and RF

    Hughes
    Gardner
    Betances
    Swisher
    Cervelli
    Warren
    Phelps
    Mitchell

    Yanks remain under the 2014 cap.

  129. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:19 am

    Well he’s also talking with the Texans. And the Nats.

    Heretofore I felt I had a pretty nice handle on the modus operandi of the YO.

    I give.

  130. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:22 am

    Trisha,

    There was never a guarantee of Hamels or Cain (remember Cliff Lee?)

    And who is more of a sure bet at DH, Fielder or Montero?

    The deal makes a ton of sense.

  131. Tar January 14th, 2012 at 10:24 am

    I refrained from commenting in the hopes that I would feel better about this trade, but I now realize that is not going to happen for a long time ( if ever :mad: ) .

    Is it an emotional response– hell yes! Baseball is an emotional game for me (not just numbers or interchangeable players) I yell when Mo k’s the final batter, or Robbie takes one deep, I yelled at my computer last night. I like so many others have been following Montero for a years now. I really wanted to see him mash in pinstripes. c’est la vie.

    The more rational side of me is hopefully optimistic that Cash and co, really did their homework on Pineda and Campos (is he the sleeper in this deal?). At least they are young with tons of potential. What a nasty potential rotation we got going for now and the future.

    This deal would have been unbearable if it was about getting someone else’s retreads just to plug a hole.

    Oh yeah one last benefit—I really like Rosy, so at least she gets to cheer on our boy Jesus. :wink:

  132. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:27 am

    Tar,

    Rosy had some glowing words to say about Pineda. She said in addition to being talented, Pineda has the mojo and the quirky personality that suits him for the pressure of NYC and the AL East. The way she described his makeup made me think of Ivan Nova and how Nova deals with all the pressure by smiling and working hard. I think they have a real gem on their hands in Pineda and Rosy was here last night to shed some light on that.

  133. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:29 am

    Bret, I think I’ve already stated that logically I totally understand the deal. And I wasn’t thinking about/worried about Cain, Hamels, or anyone else.

    Emotionally it’s a kick in the stomach.

    I’ll be stunned if the Yankees go out and get Fielder. If they do, it will defy, IMO, everything we’ve been hearing about keeping cost down and developing our own.

    If they get Fielder, it is a total signal that they do not have faith in their offense – or they’re tired of not winning a world series.

    Again, the YO I thought I knew isn’t the same one I’ve been knowing all these years.

  134. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:30 am

    Tar just said it all.

    As usual, we are really in synch.

  135. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:32 am

    Trisha,

    I think the front office just accurately identified that they could use their money to upgrade the lineup via free agency but front-end pitchers are harder to come by for money alone so you have to trade for them or develop them (which can take time and never pan out). They found the most offense-starved team in baseball with the most young elite pitching surplus and sold Montero to the highest bidder while a HOF hopeful (Fielder) is waiting impatiently in line to get a crack at YS and become the legend his father never could. Prince in YS with a chip on his shoulder for money alone? It’s a match made in heaven considering the market.

  136. LGY January 14th, 2012 at 10:34 am

    Yankees payroll projects at $207M right now.

  137. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:35 am

    Trisha,

    Trading a bat like Montero shows the Yankees have enormous faith in their offense and it shows they know they can replace that bat long term.

  138. Madrugador January 14th, 2012 at 10:38 am

    Seems everyone has Banuelos pegged to be a durable starting pitcher at the Major League level and yet I’ve never seen anyone so small accomplish that. He lists at 5″11” and only 155 lbs. Even Ron Guidry weighed in at 161lbs. Banuelos puts a lot of torque on his arm with his delivery. He may have some success at triple A and even at the big league level but I don’t see him as a durable starter.

  139. Tom in N.J. January 14th, 2012 at 10:38 am

    Brian Cashman and the Yankees did well for themselves on Friday night. As I said at the outset, I saw a good deal of hostility towards this deal in the early going, but keep one thing in mind: Montero may or may not prove to be something special, but the Yankees now have two hulking strikeout pitchers at the top of their rotation. There is nothing speculative about that statement, and therein lies the genius of the deal.

    http://www.pinstripedbible.com.....able-cost/

  140. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Prince is still getting Lee’s paycheck, or Hamel’s or Cain’s, however you want to slice it, LGY.

  141. LathamJoe January 14th, 2012 at 10:39 am

    This could work out to be a solid deal for the NYY organization. Although Cashman doesn’t have a great track record when it comes to acquiring pitchers (Jared Wright, Pavano, Vazquez to name a few), Pineda has great potential as a future ace or No. 2 starter. Its too early to get a solid read on Campos, but you have to love his potential, too.
    It’s been evident during the last few years of Montero’s development that he was viewed by the NYY Front Office as a DH type with some exposure at catcher/first base (think Matt Nokes). Girardi is a believer in rotating the DH position (probably by necessity – because of the relative age of his starters). Obviously Montero’s potential as a hitter is extremely high – even Manny Ramirez-like. But trading him to Seattle minimizes his effectiveness as a threat to the World Championship aspirations of the Yankees. Unless Seattle is willing to spend heavily to attract hitting support for Montero, their chances of seriously contending, even with a dominant offensive performance from him, is unlikely.

  142. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Bret, if they have tremendous faith in their offense, I don’t see the need for Fielder. The Yankee way has not been an all star at every position.

    I am really happy for my WCS’s Mariners. I always pull for them, as she knows, even though I know she doesn’t pull for our Yanks. :) I don’t blame her of course. It’s always a lot easier to pull for the underdog from a perspective on high. And ludicrous to expect the underdog to pull for the top dog, friendship or no!

    :)

  143. blake January 14th, 2012 at 10:40 am

    This is one time I agree with Bret somewhat……now that this deal is done you have to look at Fielder IMO…..just like arms like Hamels don’t come along often…..bats like springs almost never hit free agency at 27…….and now hey have an opening for him.

    This trade makes it less likely that they’ll need to pursue one of Hamels/Cain next year……so use that money to drastically improve the offense. Prince in YS paired with Cano would be game changing……it would be a monster upgrade at the DH position.

    Can’t go longterm…..but you have to see if Boras would do a high AAV short term then try and move AJ to offset some salary.

    A move like that would be a masterstroke……and make the Yankees a potential juggernaut.

  144. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:40 am

    Yeah, Pineda K’d one per inning as a rookie (who was rushed) and he’s built like a tank. There is some risk because he’s raw and the league adjusted to him in the second half but kudos to Cashman for growing a sac.

  145. Shame Spencer January 14th, 2012 at 10:42 am

    CashmanSUX January 14th, 2012 at 9:21 am

    since the media has now, finally, caught on to what I’ve been saying about Cashman so often trying to trade Montero..

    —————————

    Huh, go figure..I thought what you were trying to say all this time was that Cashman sits around and does nothing…

  146. Tar January 14th, 2012 at 10:42 am

    “Trading a bat like Montero shows the Yankees have enormous faith in their offense and it shows they know they can replace that bat long term.”

    Bret

    Thanks, I read Rosy’s and a lot of other comments last night, I was just to pissed off to comment myself.

    All indications are the Yankees had decided that Montero was NOT a catcher and just a DH. And no matter how special his bat was an elite young pitcher trumps an elite young DH.

    It’s a gamble and I disagree but IMO that is what Cash was thinking.

  147. Shame Spencer January 14th, 2012 at 10:43 am

    And I really, really wish they would have considered Beltran if they had this move on the radar… 2/24 would’ve been cake to eat and it sets you up at DH and in RF if Swish departs in 2013.

  148. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:43 am

    Make no mistake, the Mariners wanted Montero more than anyone else out there. Most other GM’s seemed to want Banuelos as the centerpiece or as part of the package. No sale.

  149. blake January 14th, 2012 at 10:44 am

    “And I really, really wish they would have considered Beltran if they had this move on the radar… 2/24 would’ve been cake to eat and it sets you up at DH and in RF if Swish departs in 2013″

    Yup

  150. Shame Spencer January 14th, 2012 at 10:45 am

    I’m just gonna feel badly if Pineda struggles here this season.. it wouldnt be his fault because he is still in development.. but it might not be pretty. I really hope he comes to camp in shape and ready to compete.

    ..I think part of the reason I’m still so agitated about this is I one of the things I was looking forward to most this season was seeing Jesus hit for a full year. How far away is Sanchez?!

  151. CB January 14th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    This is a complex trade with many different perspectives one can take.

    But the starting point is what kind of asset the Yankees got back in this deal.

    It’s been widely said that the Yankees have not gotten the #2 starter that they’ve needed for so long.

    I don’t think that’s the right characterization of what Pineda is right now. If people are expecting a 2 there’s a real chance that Pineda is going to disappoint. He’s not that kind of pitcher right now.

    Does he have the potential to be so? Sure. Could he take a step up and evolve into that pitcher? Yes.

    But he’s not that level of pitcher right now.

    I’m concerned people are reading too much into his ERA and peripheral stats.

    Pineda really didn’t have a consistent tool to use to attack left handed hitters with last season. He pretty much needed to get them out with his fastball and mix in his slider as possible. That slider is a terrifici pitch. But he really doesn’t have a back foot slider like CC does that can get out the opposite handed hitter.

    This is the big remaining question on Pineda. Will he be able to dominate LH hitters somewhat close to the level he does to RH hitters?

    In other words this gets down to whether or not he can expand his arsenal. Until he does that he’s not a true 2. He’s a young pitcher with loads of potential. There’s nothing wrong with that – the yankees gave up a young player in return who himself isn’t a finished product.

    No player at 22 is a finished product. Few if any 22 year olds are true #2 guys. As talented as Pineda is – he’s not one of those rare few. Doesn’t mean he’s not talented – he’s enormously gifted.

    But what the Yankees traded for was a mixture of accomplishment and potential – with the emphasis on potential.

  152. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    Shame,

    I was for Beltran because he’s versatile but I guess when Hal/Hank want to make a huge splash (Prince) they will. The Rangers will sign Darvish by Wed. Shortly after Boras and Fielder will take the Yankees offer. I believe Prince wants to play for a winner and hit in a hitter’s park. It’s down to Texas and NYC. But the Rangers don’t have the mystique and Prince just played for a beer company so maybe he’s ready for a little magic in his life.

  153. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:47 am

    If the Yankees go after Fielder I think I will barf in my mouth. Not because Fiedler wouldn’t be a good addition, but because I had really started to respect the organization for NOT trying to stack at every position and outspend everybody else just because.

    I’m predicting that Fielder will not be on the Yankees and I will still see the Yankees as a reasonable organization and not greedy slobs.

    JMO

  154. blake January 14th, 2012 at 10:47 am

    Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS #mariners probably could have had 3 montero/banuelos/betances/nova for f sea people say king is off limits

    Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 2 things about montero/yanks. 1) they ton of catching prospects, 2) girardi pr defensive catchers

    As I said last night…..I much prefer the trade they made to that proposed one for Felix. Felix is more established but when you combine the additional prospect price of Betances and Banuelos….+ plus the 20 million a year you have to pay Felix in dollars…..its just way too much.

  155. Shame Spencer January 14th, 2012 at 10:49 am

    blake – Even with Montero on the team I still thought a move like that would make sense.. with him off the team and a giant void to fill in the line up, its kind of killing me they didn’t make that deal.

    I think Prince is a pipe dream.. but after last night I’m not discounting anything. I’d obviously love his bat in our line up.

    Jeter
    Grandy
    Cano
    Arod
    Fielder
    Tex
    Swish
    Munson
    Gardner

  156. 108 stitches January 14th, 2012 at 10:49 am

    Everything to like about a loaded pitching rotation at AAA in Banuelos, Betances, Warren, Phelps, and Mitchell with the likes of Marshall, Stoneburner, and Campos waiting in the wings at AA and more on the way at lower levels.

  157. DONNYBROOK January 14th, 2012 at 10:50 am

    - HIDDEN ADVANTAGES OF TRADING MONTERO -

    (1) Yankees NOW can re-sign Russell “Thurman” Martin without clogging the DH slot for years.

    (2) Yankees NOW can routinely rest regulars, (especially Jeet\A-Rod) in the DH Slot.

    (3) Yankees NOW only need 2 Catchers on the 25 Man. Frees up spot for whatever necessary.

    (4) Yankees NOW can look at signing a Bat that actually plays a position(s) to DH. (Pena\Damon)?

    (5) Yankees NOW have a spot for Andruw Jones to display Only his bat.

  158. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:50 am

    Trisha,

    Well I am rooting for gluttony. :lol:

  159. Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 10:50 am

    Also great posts from Joeman, Carlo, CashmanSux and Pat M. last night. MTU, Trader and Blake were on the fence but they’ll come around.
    ———————————–
    Bret-

    LMAO. Maybe if they trade some pitching in AAA not named Betances or Banuelos for Billy Butler of the Royals. Then I saw his contract, Not so sure now.

    11:$3M, 12:$8M, 13:$8M, 14:$8M, 15:$12.5M club option ($1M buyout)
    option may increase by $2M to $14.5M based on performance
    assignment bonus if traded

  160. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    I think anyone who is expecting a 22-year-old to come to the Bronx and be immediately dominant is not being realistic. It can happen but chances are it won’t. Pineda was gotten to help shore up the future. That works for me.

    I don’t care if Pineda slates as #4 right now. I’m confident he’s the goods and in time will shine.

  161. blake January 14th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    CB,

    Two questions

    1) would you rather have Pineda or Latos.
    2) would you have preferred a Banuelos centered trade for Garza? I would…..and I absolutely love Manny…..but id rather have done that if it meant keeping Montero…..plus Garza is probably a better pitcher than Pineda at the present.

  162. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    Bret – :lol:

    I appreciate your honesty!

  163. blake January 14th, 2012 at 10:53 am

    Shame,
    I was all about Beltran ….especially for the money he signed for. Fielder probably is a pipe dream…..but to me it would really make the Yankees unreal. I worry about their offense…..

  164. DONNYBROOK January 14th, 2012 at 10:53 am

    - HEADS UP -

    Rumors of the Yanks talking to the Angels regarding Trumbo gaining traction.

  165. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Trumbo could be sweet.

  166. Shame Spencer January 14th, 2012 at 10:55 am

    trisha – true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    I think anyone who is expecting a 22-year-old to come to the Bronx and be immediately dominant is not being realistic. It can happen but chances are it won’t. Pineda was gotten to help shore up the future. That works for me.

    I don’t care if Pineda slates as #4 right now. I’m confident he’s the goods and in time will shine.

    —————————–

    You are 100% correct, but this is the problem as I see it… Montero’s bat would’ve played in Yankee Stadium right now. He, offensively, was as close to a sure thing as you could get. So trading that for potential is what’s been hard to swallow. Montero could’ve potentially been our catcher of the future, sure, but he was absolutely our DH of today without a doubt. I’m not totally against this deal, I mean its done so how can I be lol.. but right now its just tough to gauge because we’re going to have to wait to see how not only this season plays out but how the next few play out before we know if we shot ourselves in the foot.

  167. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 10:55 am

    What do the Angels want for Trumbo and can he play 3b?

  168. blake January 14th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    “Rumors of the Yanks talking to the Angels regarding Trumbo gaining traction.”

    Link?

  169. Shame Spencer January 14th, 2012 at 10:57 am

    Brett – I don’t remember you being 100% on board with Beltran :P I thought you kept saying there weren’t enough at bats to go around! But I’ll take support wherever I can get it lol.

  170. Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 10:58 am

    This is the big remaining question on Pineda. Will he be able to dominate LH hitters somewhat close to the level he does to RH hitters?
    ——————————-
    CB-
    Lefties hit .237 off him last year.
    The overall BA of .211 would place him #1 on the Yankees, ahead of CC last year at .255.

    My question is will his ERA be better away from Safeco than it was last year and will he be able to handle the extra innings without fading in the 2nd half like last year.

  171. GreenBeret7 January 14th, 2012 at 10:59 am

    Trumbo can’t walk or run any better than Morales right now and not likely ready for the season. They aren’t trading for a cripple.

  172. Joe from Long Island January 14th, 2012 at 10:59 am

    I’d expect that Girardi was spoken to, and quite a bit, about Montero’s abilities as a catcher. Ditto Tony Pena. And that those opinions were taken seriously by Cash, along with Eppler’s scout’s input. It looks like the consensus of the group was to go in the direction of a better catcher behind the plate.

    And, I don’t think it’s just the Yankees’ own unique philosophy. Doesn’t Scioscia also lean that way?

    Between Girardi, Pena, and Scioscia, that’s a lot of ML catching pedigree there. That has to count for something.

  173. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:00 am

    Shame, I was for Beltran as the primary DH and occasional roaming corner outfielder on a 2 year deal for 22 million. I thought the Yankees could trade Montero for a #2 or stash him in AAA to build/hold value until the trade deadline.

    But if they passed on Beltran, it’s quite possible they have something bigger in mind for DH. I’m not sure if this Trumbo talk is real or if it is meant to prod along Boras and Prince Fielder who seem to be waiting on Darvish and making the Yankees/Hal wait.

    Let’s face it though.

    Prince is a huge serving of whoopass.

  174. Frozen Rope January 14th, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Doesn’t Scioscia also lean that way?

    ——–

    yeah and didn’t Napoli help hit the Rangers to within a strike of winning the WS?

  175. Triple Short of a Cycle January 14th, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Evan is on the Fan spouting the same nonsense that many in the media are. Montero has no position to play (ever hear of Ortiz and Edgar Martinez) Pitching wins championships. blah blah blah.

    The fact is hitters have become the undervalued asset in todays game. With Steroids mostly out of the game it is becoming harder and harder to find stud hitters.

    Other then Justin Upton what other young hitter could the Yankees have a chance at signing? They just don’t exist.

    Well now it becomes a moot point if Hamels becomes a free agent or not.

    As soon as I saw the way they jerked Montero around with how long they waited to call him up and then sitting him half the time and sitting him for the whole playoffs I knew he wouldn’t be here this year and mostly everyone on here disagreed and said no way they trade him.

    Thanks Girardi

  176. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 11:02 am

    Shame, make no mistake about it. My heart is broken with Montero no longer in pinstripes. But I have to be pragmatic about the deal we now have. I think Pineda was a great score for the Yanks.

    Best I can say. Still cannot believe Montero was traded, by the way. Would like to wake up and find it was all a dream and that the Yanks got Pineda and Montero will be DHing for them…

  177. Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 11:03 am

    2) girardi pr defensive catchers

    ——————————

    Give me a bucket to vomit in.

  178. DONNYBROOK January 14th, 2012 at 11:03 am

    It’s clear the Yanks came to the conclusion that Montero was presently a player without a position. Basically, a youngster that was Exclusively a DH, and was gonna jam-up the DH Slot for the foreseeable future. Every game Montero was behind the plate in 2012, woulda seen his value drop. Cashman decided to move Montero while his value merited a promising, cheap, young, SP. Rumor has it that Cashman tried to get King Felix but Seattle would Not budge. Seattle wanted Nova but Cashman would Not budge. Compromise was Pinero instead of King Felix, and Noesi instead of Nova.

  179. Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    January 04, 2012|By Mike DiGiovanna
    Mark Trumbo said Wednesday that the stress fracture in his right foot will take about five months to heal, a timetable that will push the Angels slugger’s rehabilitation to the start of spring training in late February.

    When Trumbo was diagnosed with the injury in late September, he said he hoped to resume baseball activities by mid-November. But after being examined Nov. 11 by Dr. Philip Kwong, a foot-and-ankle specialist, Trumbo was told to rest the foot for at least another month.

    Trumbo is now excess hurt baggage for the Angels with Morales, Abreu and Pujols, unless he can prove that he won’t be a liability at 3rd, a position of need for the Angels.

  180. 4 NYY January 14th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7lqWuX2pA

    ” I Like It.”

  181. DONNYBROOK January 14th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    - Hitman -

    Rumor has it the Angels are trying to pry Robertson away from Cashman.

  182. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 11:05 am

    Trader – my big question always is this: will X be able to handle being a Yankee and playing in the Bronx? If Pineda has a strong psyche I think the rest will fall in line. He sure has the talent and potential.

  183. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    Yeah Nova is a keeper. He might not have the polish of Noesi but he has the moxie to pitch in big games. I like Nova a ton. And Rosy described Pineda’s makeup in a similar way. I’m excited to have Pineda on this team. He’s raw but he’s got a positive attitude. Hard work flows from a positive attitude. I believe the Yankees sold high on Montero and was never sold on his makeup.

  184. Joe from Long Island January 14th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    rope – so what does the one have to do with the other?

  185. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    “Rumor has it the Angels are trying to pry Robertson away from Cashman.”

    That will happen when pigs fly.

    caveat – I thought the same thing about Montero.

  186. Best To Ever Do It January 14th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    Triple Short of a Cycle January 14th, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Evan is on the Fan spouting the same nonsense that many in the media are. Montero has no position to play (ever hear of Ortiz and Edgar Martinez) Pitching wins championships. blah blah blah.

    The fact is hitters have become the undervalued asset in todays game. With Steroids mostly out of the game it is becoming harder and harder to find stud hitters.

    Other then Justin Upton what other young hitter could the Yankees have a chance at signing? They just don’t exist.

    Well now it becomes a moot point if Hamels becomes a free agent or not.

    As soon as I saw the way they jerked Montero around with how long they waited to call him up and then sitting him half the time and sitting him for the whole playoffs I knew he wouldn’t be here this year and mostly everyone on here disagreed and said no way they trade him.

    Thanks Girardi

    ————————-

    What happens if Martin gets hurt we’re stuck with Romine and Cisco smh

  187. CB January 14th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    Blake,

    I prefer Pineda to Latos. Latos is a more complete better pitcher right now – but Pineda is much more talented. And Latos himself is very talented (though I’m not a fan of his arm action).

    Pineda is really talented. He’s a kind of guy where it’s not hype on his talent. It’s real.

    But I do have concerns about how he will round out. The Yankees have just not been that successful at expanding the arsenal of their young pitchers. How will they do with Pineda? Rothschild better be everything he’s given credit for being.

    Pineda really needs to improve his change up and add a two seamer. Those really aren’t trivial issues. I don’t think he’s got the arm slot for a backfoot slider (how many righties do? why does it seem like it’s only LH pitchers who can pull that off).

    If he adds that third pitch then he’s really going to be a legit 2 with the potential to be a 1. Add two quality pitches and he’s got a real shot at being a 1.

    But these are hypotheticals. Pineda is much more raw than many yankees fans and the media seem to think. I could see this rush of expectations leading to disappointment very quickly.

    On your second point. I would have preferred trading Manny for Garza – though I don’t really like that deal either.

    I would have just signed Kuroda and called it a day.

  188. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:07 am

    Donnybook,

    Robertson is the future closer IMHO. I don’t think the Yankees would sacrifice him for a spot they can fill with money alone. Would be a different story if Trumbo had a solid glove at 3b.

  189. Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 11:09 am

    Trisha-

    Compass Rosy gives Pineda two thumbs up as a Yankee! :)

  190. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 11:09 am

    Donnybrook, I think it is abundantly clear to everyone that the Yankees traded Montero because they saw him as a hitter without a position.

  191. DONNYBROOK January 14th, 2012 at 11:11 am

    I like Pineda, but that 2nd Half ERA is alarming. Montero had NO blemishes on that bat of his in his very limited MLB exposure. My concerns about Montero would center on the Clubhouse rumors concerning his demeanor\attitude even though he was a rookie.

  192. Betsy January 14th, 2012 at 11:11 am

    One post and then I’m out:

    1) I know what Girardi prefers, but if Cashman made this deal because of Joe, then he should be fired. I don’t believe he did, though – I believe he made it because it’s obvious that no matter what he said, he didn’t think Montero was a catcher. He needs to be right about Gary Sanchez, who has had his own issues already in the minors.

    2) Pineda is 22 – he’s a baby. I don’t care about his peripherals in the 2nd half – he’s 22 years old with an electric arm. He got tired ; I’m going to look beyond the trees and see the forest – he’s going to be fine. I don’t doubt he can pitch in Yankee Stadium at all. He doesn’t have to be a#2 in 2012 for this to work. Fans talk about patience – lets have some with this kid. Just because Phil couldn’t ever develop more than one or 2 pitches doesn’t mean Pineda can’t. Larry Rothschild is a very good pitching coach – I’m not worried.

    3) The thing I worry about with trading Montero is that their lineup is OLD. I don’t like their lineup for the post-season at all – we go through the same thing every year with it. Cano and Tex are the only “stars” who are relatively young and they aren’t babies. More to the point, Tex is not future the anchor of the lineup we thought we were getting when we signed him. He’s a fine player, but he’s not as good as he used to be. We have no hitting in the minors – and what we do have is years away.

    4) The writing is on the wall with Phil Hughes, but I said this last year. I do find it funny that a lot of what people are saying now about him I was attacked for, but oh well. There is no room for him at the inn. I expect him to be the long-man or 5th inning guy. I don’t believe he has a future with this team, so I think Cashman may just trade him for whatever he can get. There’s really no way to re-build his value in the role I think he’ll be in in the pen. IF he somehow does get a rotation spot in 2012, I’ve no reason to think he’ll be that good. Sure he’s working out hard, but unless he can develop more than one pitch (which isn’t all that special anyway), he’s going to have the same issues.

    5) I’m not worried about losing Noesi in the slightest. They have other young pitchers in the minors who they are high on – he should never be the deal-breaker in any deal.

    6) Nova apparently was a deal-breaker, so he’s locked into the rotation – and he’s certainly in the Yankees future plans for now. Then again, so was Hughes – but they are two different pitchers. While I think Cashman made the deal in part because he can’t know that Nova will turn into a #2 in 2012, I also think he’s satisfied that Nova will at least be solid.

    I hope everyone had a Happy New Year.

  193. tucker January 14th, 2012 at 11:12 am

    Phelps, Warren and Mitchell must be groaning. They go from a realistic chance of becoming spot starters, long men or injury fill ins to being buried further down the company charts.

  194. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 11:12 am

    Trader – I trust her judgment.

    But the Yankees have scouted players and brought them to the Yanks only to have them wilt in the Bronxian spotlight.

    That’s more of a generic statement than a predictive statement about Pineda. Beyond the talent, they have to be built for the Bronx. Hopefully Pineda is.

    In a vacuum, I love the kid’s potential, that’s for sure!

  195. Tom in N.J. January 14th, 2012 at 11:12 am

    Mark Trumbo is the next Mike Jacobs.

  196. DONNYBROOK January 14th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    - HITMAN -

    The Yanks are currently paying Soriano a lotta $$$ to Simply man the 7th inning.

  197. CB January 14th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    Trader,

    I know what his stats are. I’ve looked at them extensively.

    And I don’t think they really tell the story. His body of work is just too small.

    His stats are very heavily weighted by his early season performance when hitters really had no idea what to do with him. But as the year went on he wasn’t nearly as effective. That may have just been work load for a young arm. But my sense was that hitters were adjusting.

    As good as his numbers were last season – I still think he should have been in AAA learning in that environment. The M’s rushed him and I think that hurt his ability to develop that 3rd pitch.

    With him – I think the eye test is really important. He’s only thrown 170 innings in the bigs. Difficult to generalize off that entirely.

    He didn’t have the same sorts of tools to get out LH hitters. That’s an area he’s going to need to continue to develop.

  198. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:14 am

    Donnybrook,

    I didn’t like the reports of Montero sulking in AAA because he felt he deserved to be in MLB and supposedly his numbers in AAA were being blamed on that. And maybe as a big leaguer he didn’t want to be a DH and was going to stew over that as well over time. They sold high on him like they should have done with Joba. Montero might not hit 20 HR’s in Seattle.

  199. Tom in N.J. January 14th, 2012 at 11:14 am

    Alex and Jeter are old. The rest of the starting 9 average about 30.

  200. DONNYBROOK January 14th, 2012 at 11:14 am

    - BETSY -

    Good post.

  201. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:14 am

    BETSY!!!

  202. 108 stitches January 14th, 2012 at 11:15 am

    The Rays are on the prowl for a proven hitter and can deal either Davis or Neimann as trading chips with up and comers like Matt Moore and Alex Cobb strongly in their immediate pitching picture.
    Boston has no real trading chips and better hope that the back issues of Buchholz allow him to double his output of 82.2 innings he had in 2011. If John Henry actually opens his wallet to get Oswalt, he too comes with back issues. Toronto has the horses to slide into 3rd place in the AL East.

  203. Betsy January 14th, 2012 at 11:16 am

    One more thing – trading Garcia or putting him in the pen after he signed a 1 year deal when he could have gotten a multi-year deal elsewhere would be really a terrible thing to do.

  204. hardwired7 January 14th, 2012 at 11:17 am

    Three solid strike throwers in the rotation now. CC, Pineda and Kuroda were all better than 3:1 K/BB last yr.

    That’s not meant to minimize the loss of Montero. As a fan, reading that he was traded was a gut punch, and I’m not even a hugger.

  205. Faiaz January 14th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    If it was not the case prior to this particular trade… this swap definitely puts Cashman in elite GM status.

  206. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    Personally I’d put Kuroda in the pen and let him be the 6th starter, at least at the beginning. I’d keep Freddy in the rotation.

    I’m sure a lot will remain to be seen.

    If any of the newbies turn in horrendous ST, and the oldies are cooking, well come on. Try some logic.

  207. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Hi Faiaz!

  208. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:20 am

    I wonder what they can get for Phil Hughes right now and some of that pitching surplus in the minors.

  209. Betsy January 14th, 2012 at 11:21 am

    Tom, ok, I guess I can’t leave just yet.

    I did forget Grandy, which I don’t know how I did because he’s fabulous. Gardner, IMO, is just not that good. Swisher, I Hope, will not be back next year – they need to find a RF. My point is that Montero was going to be the impact bat they needed – and don’t have in the minors. I don’t have problems with the deal because I can absolutely see where Cashman is coming from; I think if he thought Montero could catch, this deal would not have been done. I just have some reservations because of their lineup going forward – not so much this year (though I do), but in the next few years.

    Donny, thanks! Hi Bret- how are you?

  210. 108 stitches January 14th, 2012 at 11:22 am

    Montero has to realize that the surrounding cast he’ll have in Seattle will not be what he would have had with the Yankees. A very likeable kid but for his sake he shouldn’t put too much pressure on himself to attempt overachieving.

  211. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:22 am

    Betsy,

    I’m great! Would be better if they upgrade LF!!! :lol:

  212. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:23 am

    Is Shin Soo Choo a possibility for RF? What do the Indians need? They inquired on Swisher.

  213. Faiaz January 14th, 2012 at 11:24 am

    Hey Trisha :)

    Thoughts on Pena as DH?

  214. blake January 14th, 2012 at 11:24 am

    “I would have just signed Kuroda and called it a day.”

    that would have made a lot of sense.

    “I do find it funny that a lot of what people are saying now about him I was attacked for, but oh well. ”

    Hi Betsy, this is a true story…..but I still tend to think the whole Phil Hughes tale hasn’t been told yet. I want to see him healthy for a full season first and then see where he is.

  215. DONNYBROOK January 14th, 2012 at 11:25 am

    I’d Now like to see Cashman get Damon on the cheap, ( $3 Mill?) and platoon Damon and Jones outta the DH hole. Damon would also serve as the 4th OF’er.

  216. Faiaz January 14th, 2012 at 11:25 am

    OR… what can we offer the Metsies for Wright? Is that a dream or is there a hint of reality to that for the future?

  217. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:26 am

    Damon? Follow up a ballsy move like this with Damon/Jones platoon?

    You’re no fun!!! :lol:

  218. blake January 14th, 2012 at 11:26 am

    Yankees @YankeeSource 9h
    Kuroda vs.sub .500 teams: 3.61 ERA and 1.227WHIP & 2.99 SO/BB. Kuroda vs. + .500 teams: 3.28ERA and 1.144 WHIP & 3.47 SO/BB.

  219. Faiaz January 14th, 2012 at 11:27 am

    Bret,

    You want prince don’t you? LOL

  220. lounge lizard January 14th, 2012 at 11:27 am

    Watching Pineda on the mlb.tv archive, I was reminded a whole lot of the 22 year old Joba Chamberlain. Very similar build, delivery, repertoire.

    So if the Yanks should have sold high on Joba, guess what the Mariners may have just done with Pineda.

    And Pineda did already miss most of a full season (2009) with an elbow injury, so Tommy John surgery is very much in the picture.

    I’d like to name someone who Pineda reminds me of that has had a long, successful career as a starter but I can’t, really. I see Lee Smith, Frank Francisco, Fausto Carmona . . . and Joba Chamberlain.

  221. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:28 am

    Replacing Swisher with Choo in RF frees up $$$$$$$$. Dumping part of AJ’s contract (albeit a small portion) frees up more $$$$. Maybe they can dump R. Soriano too? More $$$$$$.

    For PRINCE FIELDER

    :lol:

  222. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 11:28 am

    I think staying away from the forum was a good thing for Betsy. Nothing like clearing your head away from this place, especially when it starts to get crazy.

    I think that was a pretty sage post.

  223. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:29 am

    The one small difference between Pineda and Joba – one is a butthead.

  224. blake January 14th, 2012 at 11:30 am

    Joe Casale

    If Fielder signs with the Nats, Zimmerman could be in play. The upside of having a ton of young arms. Gives #Yankees a lot of good options.
    9:49 AM – 14 Jan 12 via Twitter for iPhone · Details

    Joe Casale Joe Casale @sportsJC16
    Another #Yankees thought this AM. Use their surplus of young arms and look to acquire Ryan Zimmerman to play 3B and make Arod the FT DH.

    depending on what they’d have to give up…..that would be awesome

  225. DONNYBROOK January 14th, 2012 at 11:30 am

    - BRET -
    Still a lotta gas left in Damon’s tank.

  226. Shame Spencer January 14th, 2012 at 11:30 am

    Betsy!? Rich in NJ!? I love that this news brought out so many of the old crew!!! Keep coming back folks, the season is only 35 days away!

  227. Bret The Hitman January 14th, 2012 at 11:30 am

    How much $$$$$ can the Yankees get by dumping Swisher (replacing him with Choo), part of AJ, R. Soriano and Hughes????

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$

    PRINCE

  228. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 11:31 am

    lizard, people feel that Pineda was rushed up “of necessity” much like what happened with Joba and Hughes. You can’t say enough about letting kids have the time they need to develop. Look what happened to Steven Strasburg in his first season in the majors! When you rush a pitcher up, you put a lot of weight on his shoulders and a lot of strain on his arm.

    Hopefully the Yankees are cautious with Pineda.

  229. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 14th, 2012 at 11:32 am

    Ryan Zimmerman? Love him.

  230. Shame Spencer January 14th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    Zimmerman would be ridiculously awesome… I’ve also always wanted to find a place for David Wright on our team but I dunno that they’re relegating Alex to the DH spot just yet. He was still very solid defensively even after he came back from injury. I just always like Wright.. he and Jeter would be a perfect pairing – the media would hate them lol. Talk everyday and still tell ‘em nothing.

  231. Yankee Trader January 14th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    CB-

    Appreciate your input. Hopefully Michael Pineda at 6’7″ and 270 will have a long healthy career and be the mirror image of CC Sabathia.

    I looked at all teams where Montero might have gotten a chance to catch or play first in the NL and DH/catch in the AL, and after eliminating the AL East as trading partners, there weren’t many fits where the Yankees could have traded just Montero and Noesi for a young starting pitcher.

    Bumgarner of the Giants already had Posey at catcher
    Garcia of the Cards were already set at C/1B
    The only possibility might have been the Brewers as a 1B/C for Yovani Gallardo.

    Any thoughts on what other young pitchers the Yankees might have gotten who were better than Pineda without sacrificing more than they did?

  232. Shame Spencer January 14th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    New thread: What’s Next?

    :arrow:

  233. Faiaz January 14th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    “the season is only 35 days away”

    WHOA, reading that gave me this overwhelming feeling of baseball and the sun. I guess time really does fly sometimes.

  234. DONNYBROOK January 14th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    Once again, that Pineda 2nd half ERA keeps jumping out at me.

    The trading of Noesi shows the ballyhooing of these guys offseason performances is a lotta smoke.

  235. Betsy January 14th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    Hi Blake

    Actually, I just don’t see there being any room for him – either he or AJ will be traded or sent to the pen. He did look fantastic in the post-season, but I think that was because he was in the pen. I’ll grant that his arm did look healthy then, but I don’t think health has anything to do with why he has struggled so much at time. Health doesn’t explain why he has been unable to develop pitches beyond his FB – forget the change, it’s the curve I’ve been disappointed in. He’s also not the very smart pitcher we heard so much about in the minors. Actually, I was saying these things early in 2010 – before he started to struggle. I recall having huge conversations with CB about it – I just did not think there was any way he could keep it up with only 2 pitches. For the record, no matter what anyone thinks, I do not relish, nor have I ever relished, saying this stuff. I will feel a twinge when he’s traded or he leaves – despite my reservations.

    Bret, glad to hear it. I think Gardner is safe for now – but if he does not have a strong year, they are going to have to deal with him as well – I agree.

  236. 108 stitches January 14th, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    •Alfonso Soriano reiterated that he is willing to waive his no-trade clause, but only if the Cubs deal him to a contender, reports ESPN Chicago’s Bruce Levine. Soriano is owed $54MM through 2014 and the Cubs are reportedly willing to pay most of that salary in a possible deal.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If Epstein is willing to eat that much of Soriano’s salary do an even deal of Burnett for Soriano and sweeten the deal by adding Justin Maxwell.

  237. yclept January 14th, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    Pineda’s second half ERA should be no more surprising than his first-half. First full big-league season – he likely wore down. The Mariners let him pitch through a dead arm in all likelihood, and that’s a good thing.

    As for who he compares to and whether or not those pitchers ever had success, that is just silly thinking. I am sure many who saw Pedro early on were thinking, “Look at him – probably not even 150 pounds – can’t remember the last time a pitcher like this became much of anything. No chance.”

    I don’t know how a build of a pitcher really gives us any indication of what they will or will not be – they’re pitchers. By nature, they are all injury risks. Not making a trade for a good pitcher with big upside because of the chance he might someday get hurt is not really the way to run an organization.

    And there hasn’t been many details released on his elbow injury – we all know that organizations treat pitching prospects like gold, and the hint of any injury will cause a shutdown. Obviously, it was not serious enough to go under the knife. If Pineda gets hurt in 2012, I would personally chalk it up to the nature of the beast more than any other reason.


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