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Final thoughts on Pineda, Kuroda and Montero

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 15, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

After a few more conversations with people in the organization, here are a few final thoughts on Friday’s rotation upgrades and the moves that made them possible.

• The trade is in no way an indication that the Yankees stopped believing in Jesus Montero. The Yankees realize they’re taking a significant risk in losing him. “The least risky attribute of everything going on is the bat,” one source said. “And (the Mariners) got the bat.” That said, the Yankees recognized they had to give up something they wanted to get something they needed. “You’re not going to rob anyone any more,” another source said.

• The Yankees believe Montero’s bat will be significant, but they also believe it’s easier to replace Montero’s potential than to replace Michael Pineda’s potential. It’s easier to lure a hitter to Yankee Stadium, and impact hitters reach the free agent market more often than impact pitchers. Just look at this year’s market. The top pitchers available were occasional all-stars C.J. Wilson and Mark Buehrle. The top hitters were perennial MVP candidates Albert Pujols and Prince Fielder.

• To reach his potential, Pineda needs a changeup. The fastball and slider are great, but the third pitch hasn’t come, and the Yankees believe he needs that third pitch to become a legitimate No. 1 or 2 starter. He’s still just 22, so there’s still plenty of room to grow, but the Yankees clearly believe Pineda is in the development stage.

• I suggested to one person in the organization that losing Hector Noesi didn’t seem so significant with so much pitching coming in (and so much pitching still available in the upper levels). “I don’t think the goal was to trade either of those guys,” the source said. “But those type of pitchers (like Pineda) don’t become available very often.”

• Amazing that a $10-million deal could get lost in the shuffle, but that’s exactly what’s happened with Hiroki Kuroda. With Montero traded and Pineda added, Kuroda is secondary, but he’s also exactly the kind of deal the Yankees seemed to be looking for this winter: A potential impact starter that comes with no long-term risk. A one-year deal is huge in this situation.

• Jose Campos is a long way from the big leagues, but the Yankees like that he combines a big fastball with good control. You don’t see that combination often in 19-year-old kids.

• No inside information to backup this thought, but I can’t help wondering how much the Mariners have been kicking themselves for choosing Justin Smoak over Montero two years ago. Wonder if that affected their willingness to make this deal.

Associated Press photo

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730 Responses to “Final thoughts on Pineda, Kuroda and Montero”

  1. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:06 am

    • “Me The Yankees believe Montero’s bat will be significant, but they also believe it’s easier to replace Montero’s potential than to replace Michael Pineda’s potential”

    This is the problem…….because this just isn’t true anymore. Unless they are going to sign Prince……its going ti be very hard to replace Montero’s potential.

  2. MTU January 15th, 2012 at 9:08 am

    Blake-

    They must believe it !

    I’d say they know more than we do.

    ;)

  3. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:10 am

    “. It’s easier to lure a hitter to Yankee Stadium, and impact hitters reach the free agent market more often than impact pitchers. Just look at this year’s market. The top pitchers available were occasional all-stars C.J. Wilson and Mark Buehrle. The top hitters were perennial MVP candidates Albert Pujols and Prince Fielder.”

    I asked this question yesterday. Who is the next impact bat under age 30 at any position that will hit the free agent market after Prince Fielder…..Cole Hamels and Matt Cain may be available next winter……over 30 and injury prone Josh Hamilton is the only potential bat on the horizon.

    I think folks are still thinking this is 10 years ago…….it’s just not

  4. MTU January 15th, 2012 at 9:10 am

    Upgrade the pitching development side of things and we’re golden.

    ;)

  5. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:12 am

    MTU,

    I hope so

  6. MTU January 15th, 2012 at 9:12 am

    Blake-

    You saying you think you know more than the Yankees Braintrust, and their particular version of “Carmen” ?

    Sorry bud but in this instance I have to side with them.

    :(

  7. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:13 am

    They should offer Tampas player development people twice their salaries and steal them all.

  8. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:15 am

    MTU,

    No…..just saying I don’t agree with those two statements….

  9. Melkmanisinhotlanta January 15th, 2012 at 9:16 am

    Final conclusion of trade:

    1. Going to be hit like a Pinata.
    2. Campos will be lost in the minors for years to come.
    3. Jesus will save the Mariners. Now he will be extra motivated to save.
    4. NYY will have doubled down on the slow, unproductive play off bats of Tex, Aroid, Jeter, Swishdillyicious.
    5. Pathetic that the keys to the kingdom have been traded away. Huge impact bat gone..expect more of the same for 2012 for the NYY: elimination in first round of playoffs.

  10. MTU January 15th, 2012 at 9:16 am

    Blake-

    Neil Allen works for them.

    He’s a former Yankee. Let’s get him back.

    And whoever else we can steal.

    The raw materials Tampa starts with also have a lot to do with it.

    Rememeber that. Scouting is the first part of the equation.

    It also does not hurt to pick consistently high in the draft.

    They are definitely doing something right though so don’t get me wrong.

  11. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:16 am

    Hopefully they have a plan in place to replace what they lost with Montero……otherwise Im not sure this deal makes the Yankees any better short term or long term. We will just have to see…..

  12. Jacques Strappe January 15th, 2012 at 9:17 am

    I just woke up so I’m hoping I missed seeing sudden news release that the recent pitching upgrades gave Cashman the freedom to either trade AJ Burnett (did ANSKY have to pay 50% of his salary? 60%? 70%?) of just release him. Did it happen yet? Did I miss it? Where’s my coffee?

  13. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 9:17 am

    To reach his potential, Pineda needs a changeup. The fastball and slider are great, but the third pitch hasn’t come, and the Yankees believe he needs that third pitch to become a legitimate No. 1 or 2 starter.
    ———————————-
    Good morning. Just where will he develop the CU-starting the season at AAA or learning on the “fly”

  14. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 9:18 am

    Blake -

    He’s not under 30 – he’ll be exactly 30 – but I could see a scenario where the Mets decline their 16 mil option on Wright and he hits free agency.

  15. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:19 am

    Im not sure how good David Wright is anymore……he’s a K machine.

  16. Benny Blanco January 15th, 2012 at 9:19 am

    Final conclusion of trade:

    1. Going to be hit like a Pinata.
    2. Campos will be lost in the minors for years to come.
    3. Jesus will save the Mariners. Now he will be extra motivated to save.
    4. NYY will have doubled down on the slow, unproductive play off bats of Tex, Aroid, Jeter, Swishdillyicious.
    5. Pathetic that the keys to the kingdom have been traded away. Huge impact bat gone..expect more of the same for 2012 for the NYY: elimination in first round of playoffs.=========================

    Definitely a “devils advocate” perspective.

  17. MTU January 15th, 2012 at 9:20 am

    YT-

    I already told you that the other day.

    Michael.

    Meet your new team mates Hiroki and Freddy.

    Also your new pitching coach Larry.

    And this guy over here is Mr. Splitty.

    Learn to love him as he will be a good friend to you throughout your career.

  18. ron January 15th, 2012 at 9:21 am

    Prince is still out there.

    Name me a potential ace that is or was out there,that is similar to pineda.

    If we wanted,we can sign prince,and get more production than montero,guaranteed.

    Pena,giambi,etc..

    There are options.

    Also,gary sanchez now replaces montero,even though he is a few years away.

    You simply can’t get good,young,cost controlled pitching,without giving up a ton.
    Even then,teams just don’t trade those pitchers,til they sucked the best years out of them.

    I think montero is going to absolutely mash,so i hope pineda is great.

    Campos,if he turns out great,at least might soften the blow if pineda doesn’t work out.

    I f montero simply can’t catch,i’m ok with the trade.

  19. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 9:21 am

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:19 am

    Im not sure how good David Wright is anymore……he’s a K machin

    ———————————-

    Maybe Long can work his magic.

  20. Melkmanisinhotlanta January 15th, 2012 at 9:22 am

    Compare Pineda aka Pinata’s effectiveness to Jesus’ for 2012 and just watch how painful 2012 is going to be. Is Pinata going to develop his change up against the Sox?

    Jesus is now ultra motivated to succeed. Pity.

  21. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:22 am

    Either way……I wouldn’t want to get in with Wright on a long term deal.

  22. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 9:23 am

    SUNDAY, 8:13am: Neither the D’Backs or Yankees appear to have reached an agreement with Colon, tweets Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com. Based on the rumors we’ve heard, that would leave Oakland as Colon’s most likely destination, but there’s still no confirmation.

    Just how Friday evening started with this MLBTR rumor that spoiled my night:

    6:06pm: The Mariners have moved closer to a trade that would net them a “young impact hitter,” reports ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick. A source calls the trade “significant” and says Brandon League is not part of the deal (both links via Twitter).

  23. ron January 15th, 2012 at 9:25 am

    The problem with fans is,they are trying to figure out who got the best in this trade,and it simply can’t be done now.

    It’s going to take years to figure it out.

    Montero can turn into pujols,pineda might stink,but campos might turn into king felix,noesi stinks,and gary sanchez is a monster.

    Let’s wait & see.

  24. Melkmanisinhotlanta January 15th, 2012 at 9:25 am

    Forgive Cashman for he has sinned.

  25. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:25 am

    Ron,

    That’s very true….

  26. Jacques Strappe January 15th, 2012 at 9:26 am

    2011: CC Pineda Hughes Nova Garcia Kuroda
    2012: CC Pineda Hughes Nova Banuelos and somebody

    Not bad especially if Pineda evolves as everyone exects he will, Nova keeps on his current path and Hughes can get back to being the pitcher he was in 2010.

    Kuroda’s here for a year, so Banuelos can come up next year. Next year they can extend Kurodda (or Garcia) if needed.

    I agree on the point that signing a position player with a good bat to replace Montero is a little easier than acquiring a pitcher with Pineda’s tools. If ANSKY gets under the luxury tax threshold by 2014 they’d be at liberty to go over it for such a player (or two) at a lower rate than they’re paying now. Time’s-a-coming soon when they’ll need to replace Jeter (and be free of his contract) too. With all respect to Mr Jeter of course.

  27. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:28 am

    Even if Campos develops into a frontkine guy 5 tears from now the trade coukd be a win……I just hate losing Montero

  28. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 9:31 am

    mtu-

    the only good thing that will come out of this bizarro trade is that the blog got reinvigorated by the controversy and is somewhat interesting for a change.

    seeing cb and some other good people show up was a welcome development.

    now if some of the old sunday morning crew showed up like doreen and murphydog we’d really have something going here.

  29. austinmac January 15th, 2012 at 9:31 am

    Cashman gave up less than the other teams who acquired young pitching. I believe Pineda has a reasonable chance to also be better than the others. He can dominate.

    Yes, they need a bat. Prince seems most unlikely, but I agree he would be a wonderful addition. If not, Pena or Damon seem the most likely. They really need a left handed bat.

  30. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 9:31 am

    I don’t know what to tell you Blake – there’s risk in everything and the Yankees are taking one here. If Montero becomes Miguel Cabrera and Pineda becomes Jeff Weaver then yes, this is a bad deal. And if all the Yankee bats get old and they’re never able to sign or trade for another hitter – then yes, the offense will struggle.

    But the Yankee offense today is as strong as it was last year when they were 2nd in overall offense and the rotation is a heck of a lot better. To me that’s a win.

  31. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 9:32 am

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:10 am
    “. It’s easier to lure a hitter to Yankee Stadium, and impact hitters reach the free agent market more often than impact pitchers. Just look at this year’s market. The top pitchers available were occasional all-stars C.J. Wilson and Mark Buehrle. The top hitters were perennial MVP candidates Albert Pujols and Prince Fielder.”

    I asked this question yesterday. Who is the next impact bat under age 30 at any position that will hit the free agent market after Prince Fielder

    *********

    Hamilton after next season

    Votto in 2013

  32. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 9:33 am

    I hate losing Montero too – but you do have to give up something to get something and the yankees obviously believe it’s easier to find offense than it is to find pitching. I think most people in baseball agree with that line of thinking.

  33. Benny Blanco January 15th, 2012 at 9:33 am

    Blake, I’m sure the mariner’s fan base hate “losing pineda.” I hate losing montero too, but look at the history..

    Every (top) prospect we have followed recently has been traded..i.e Kennedy, Jackson, and now Montero.

  34. MTU January 15th, 2012 at 9:34 am

    Randy-

    Yeah. I miss those folks.

    Gotta run.

    catch you later.

  35. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 9:35 am

    I thought Safeco was a pitchers park, but according to these stats the park ranked 13th out of 30 in homers allowed. Smoak had 10 of his 15 homers there last year.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/p.....t/HRFactor

    Over or Under -Montero hits 30 homeruns this season in the majors?

  36. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:37 am

    Hamilton wont be under 30 and he’s hurt constantly…..Votto yes…..unless the Red sign him now that they’ve traded Yonder Alonso….which is what I expect to happen.

    Randy,

    Yes….that I agree with.

  37. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 9:37 am

    Trader -

    Under

  38. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:39 am

    And Votto is no more of a fit than Prince is now anyway…..he’s a first baseman.

  39. Tar January 15th, 2012 at 9:39 am

    “now if some of the old sunday morning crew showed up like doreen and murphydog we’d really have something going here.”

    +1

    I miss the Sunday morning Loopy rants. Doreen and Erica are surely missed as well. Maybe Erica can come back and lobby for a certain caveman type DH :D

  40. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 9:39 am

    “Five years of Pineda’s prime years could cost the Yankees little more than one year of Burnett’s tear-your-hair-out inconsistency.”

    Marc Carig’s article yesterday on the new way the Yankees might be doing business:

    http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....of_ya.html

  41. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Yea ill take the under on 30 for Montero next year in that park……the 10 years after next though…….I don’t know.

  42. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:41 am

    Im in a foul mood and Tar knows why Im sure ;)

  43. Villa Nova-Ya January 15th, 2012 at 9:41 am

    Taking my time to weigh in on this.

    First reaction was total shock. I was sure Montero was not going to be traded because looking at the landscape of FAs and players known to be available via the trade route, in my view, Montero was clearly too much to pay for anyone. Let alone Montero and Noesi (or any other combination).

    After the dust is settling, I am still disappointed (very much so) that Montero will not be in pinstripes next season or thereafter. On one level I feel like the Yankees allowed the fan base to fall in love with this player in September (especially those who don’t make it a habit to follow the baby bombers, and there are a lot more of those than of us here who make it a second career almost LOL), and then they took him away.

    On another level, it’s clear that the Yankees were not all that comfortable with the pitching staff they had going in to 2012 and were determined to add someone. Montero has been their best trade chip for a couple of years now, and so it makes sense that he was the one to go. However, I do NOT believe for a minute that he was categorically NEVER going to be ML Yankee. If Seattle doesn’t make the trade, Montero is on the roster in April. No doubt in my mind the Yankees know what they gave up and were not “shopping” him so much as realizing that he was what other teams wanted and reluctantly parted with him.

    I imagine the Yankee war room to look something like this: A list of FAs, a list of players KNOWN to be available in trade, and a third list of players they would want to pursue via trade, and of course, the list of players in whatever combination they’d be willing to deal for known and unknown players. Most of us here didn’t factor in that list of players we NEVER thought would be available for trade. Who the Yankees coveted unbeknownst to outsiders. That’s partially why the total shock.

    I think in terms of balance, of fairness, this was a good trade. It hurts both sides, but it has big potential to help both sides.

    I had looked forward to watching Jesus’ swing for years to come, and now it’s not to be. But, seriously, that is the nature of baseball, of prospects. And Cashman has always been honest – with obvious exceptions, he’s said every player is moveable in the right trade. And he’s been honest about the nature of their farm system – some will be Yankees, but probably more of them will be used to help the Yankees in other ways.

    I’m concerned about the DH position, but it’ll be dealt with.

    My one concern about Pineda is that if he needs to develop a third pitch, how do they expect him to do that at the ML level? It seems to me that pitchers are reluctant to use new pitches in real-game situations. I suppose that pitch #3 will be job #1 in ST for Pineda. From what I understand, he has been working on a third pitch, and may just need some refinement. That would be good.

    I was also surprised that Montero ultimately got traded for potential rather than a definite #1 type, but this is more a reflection of the market and just look at what a haul other teams got this winter. Cashman did not have to sell the farm for a quality pitcher.

    Also, I’ve seen a lot of reasons here for why the Yankees needed to look for another pitcher at this juncture, but not once did I see what I think reason #1: AJ being a failure in the role he was brought to fill, a #2. He’s not even the slam-dunk #5. Had AJ been even an iota more reliable, this move was not necessary.

    Also, adding Kuroda says to me that the Yankees are fully committed to giving Banuelos and Betances whatever time they need to develop at the level they should, and not having to rush them into ML service. Now, no one knows what the future holds – what injuries or other things may occur – but at least it can be seen that the intent is there on the part of the Yankees to make sure that their next generation of youngsters gets the time they need.

    I am thankful for the sane and well-thought out posts here over the last few days. I understand the emotional response to this trade, because I had it myself, am having it still. But at the end of the day, it’s baseball. The part of baseball we all hate – parting with a player we’ve grown attached to (even if, as in this case, what we’ve grown attached to is more promise/potential).

    This winter, we’re saying goodbye to a player on his way out (Posada) and all that he’s given to the Yankees, as well as to a player we thought was on his way in (Montero), and all that we’d hope he was poised to give in the future.

  44. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 9:42 am

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:37 am
    Hamilton wont be under 30 and he’s hurt constantly…..Votto yes…..unless the Red sign him now that they’ve traded Yonder Alonso….which is what I expect to happen.

    ********

    But you do not know that – that is speculation – just like saying Montero will be another Cabrera or Piazza – you do not know that – you asked a question – Votto – as of now – is not signed after 2013. I think you are letting this fascination with Montero cloud the statement that offensive players come out on the market more often than big time pitcher.

    Look at what the Rangers did last offseason – they get a Beltre and Napoli – two non-elite but nice hitters – and that dramatically improved their already potent offense. Finding the hitting is WAY easier than finding the pitcher.

  45. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:43 am

    “Also, adding Kuroda says to me that the Yankees are fully committed to giving Banuelos and Betances whatever time they need to develop at the level they should, and not having to rush them into ML service. ”

    Agree …and this may be the best news from all of this……

  46. yankee21 January 15th, 2012 at 9:44 am

    Excellent post Villa

  47. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 9:44 am

    Blake-

    I know we talked about this, but I’m still unclear-If Burnett is traded and the Yankees assume, lets say 25M of the 33M owed him, that 25M[12.5M/year] counts against them for luxury tax purposes even though he’s no longer on the 40 man roster???

  48. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:45 am

    Stone,

    Where would Votto play? Finding hitters isn’t all that hard no…..finding young elite level hitters like Montero’s potential is next to impossible to find anymore because teams don’t let them go.

  49. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:46 am

    Yes Villa….nice post

  50. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:47 am

    Trader,

    According to LGY…..they would still be on the hook for whatever the acquiring team didn’t pick up with regards to the luxury tax under the new CBA…..which stinks if true.

  51. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 9:48 am

    Let me ask you guys this – and be honest please – if the trade had been reversed…if the Yankees had traded a pitcher who came up through the system, been an all star in the first half, won RoY, etc and a top 10 prospect…for a slugging prospect that everyone agrees will mash but may not be able to do more than DH and a kid who showed some promise as a long reliever…would you be happy or would your reaction be much the same as it is now?

  52. Tar January 15th, 2012 at 9:49 am

    Blake

    Why did something happen? :wink: Just a perfect storm, character building I hope.

    BTW we are in agreement on this trade, it hurts a lot. It sure can hurt a lot less ( for now anyway) if they now go all in and sign an impact bat.

  53. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:49 am

    The Yankees should use the money they we’re going to use to sign Cole Hamels…..to sign Prince fielder

  54. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 9:50 am

    I can see a mid season trade where the Yankees get Carlos Quentin from the Padres if there’s a concern about offense.

  55. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 9:50 am

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:45 am
    Stone,

    Where would Votto play? Finding hitters isn’t all that hard no…..finding young elite level hitters like Montero’s potential is next to impossible to find anymore because teams don’t let them go.

    *********

    So now the question turns to where Votto will play – okay – could he make the transition to the OF – idk – but I do know when Votto was rumored on the trade market – there was speculation that he could move to RF.

    Look – we do not know how Montero will be over a full season – the Heywards, the Browns, the Belts – have all struggled so far – and they put up better numbers in AAA than Montero.

    And who says you have to build your team with prospect hitters – why can’t you do what the Rangers have done – find a Napoli, Beltre, Cruz, and Hamilton via trade and FA. The team of the 90s did not have the supposed “generational” bats at the time – in fact – they beat those big sluggers – the Piazzas (Mets), the Gonzales (Rangers), the Ramirezs (Cleveland).

  56. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 9:52 am

    I was also surprised that Montero ultimately got traded for potential rather than a definite #1 type.
    —————————————————-
    When I looked at all the rosters of the other teams for “1′s of their perspective teams it seemed that the Yankees would have needed to part with either Banuelos or Betances, plus Montero and 2 others as what transpired with Gonzalez and Latos. Other young pitchers that would have been nice to acquire, for example Bumgarner-the Giants already had a catcher.

    This might have been the best they could do to get a #2 who has the potential to be a #1.

    Thoughts?

  57. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Chip,

    Here is the thing……from the Mariners POV…..they traded from an area of strength (young pitching) to add to an area of weakness (offense).

    The Yankees traded from an area of weakness (young offense) to add to an area where they strong in the minors (young pitching).

    The trade may come up roses for the Yankees……if Pineda becomes a right handed Sabathia then it probably will……but were just have to see…and to trade Mkntero I would have like more track record in return

  58. 108 stitches January 15th, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Austin Romine should blossom out with his full potential in ST knowing that he doesn’t have the shadow of Montero over him any longer. It’s a battle between him and Cervelli as the backup catcher to Russell Martin. Gary Sanchez is still 2-3 years away but will likely be a non-roster invitee to ST so Tony Pena and Butch Wynegar can get a read on him.

  59. austinmac January 15th, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Villa,

    Well said. Now let’s get a DH. Let’s get Prince. It will make Blake happy.

  60. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Chip January 15th, 2012 at 9:48 am
    Let me ask you guys this – and be honest please – if the trade had been reversed…if the Yankees had traded a pitcher who came up through the system, been an all star in the first half, won RoY, etc and a top 10 prospect…for a slugging prospect that everyone agrees will mash but may not be able to do more than DH and a kid who showed some promise as a long reliever…would you be happy or would your reaction be much the same as it is now?

    *******

    You ask another great question – you are really on today.

    Taking Montero away from certain posters is the equivalent in their mind of depriving them from watching a potential star. But there in this fault – they are more upset b/c they will not be able to follow Montero – follow the individual – vs. the long term health of the team. Long term health of teams is dependent on not having to overpay and give out terrible long term contracts on pitching (both starters and relievers).

  61. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:55 am

    Stone,

    I see that POV…..those 90s teams had some pretty darn good hitters though…..Jeter, Bernie, Posada were all the young elite level bats at their positions Im talking about that are tough to find if you don’t develop them yourself these days.

  62. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    “Well said. Now let’s get a DH. Let’s get Prince. It will make Blake happy”

    After my Heels getting blown out yesterday…..I need something ;)

  63. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    Blake -

    You can look at it that way or you can look at it that the Yankees traded from areas of strength – offense in general, catcher in particular, for an area of weakness young high end ML ready pitching.

    It’s a fair trade – that means neither fan base gets to be happy right away ;-)

  64. austinmac January 15th, 2012 at 9:58 am

    Pineda has more upside than any young pitcher the Yankees have. He has much more control and command than either of the Bs and throws harder than either. What’s not to like? What 22 year old didn’t need to work on a third pitch.

    I will greatly miss Montero, but a DH is his likely role. Getting a pitcher like Pineda for one player without a position is remarkable considering what was given up for Gio and Latos. Pineda has more upside than either.

  65. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 9:58 am

    Blake -

    Those 90′s teams also had the best pitching in baseball with Cone, Clemens, Andy, El Duque…

  66. blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:59 am

    Chip,

    Who is this food offensive catcher the Yankees have above A ball?

  67. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 9:59 am

    I’m starting to get the sinking feeling that they can’t move AJ. The pitching market is bare now and we hear no action on AJ. If that is the case, where does Hughes fit in, AAA? Or do you think the Yankees are weighing offers for Hughes? Can the Yankees turn Hughes + Gardner into somebody like Logan Morrison?

  68. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 10:00 am

    Trader,

    According to LGY…..they would still be on the hook for whatever the acquiring team didn’t pick up with regards to the luxury tax under the new CBA…..which stinks if true.
    ——————————
    Blake-
    That’s what I thought. This brings me then to perhaps the best scenario for the Yankees to dump Burnett and get another bat for DH- to trade for another bad contract instead of signing a FA DH for 4-8M like Pena, Damon, Kotchman, etc. This would of course be contingent on players accepting the trade and waiving their NTC’s

    Would/could that bad contract, if the monies are evened out be best served for the Yankees if it was:

    Carlos Lee-has one year 18.5M
    Jason Bay
    Alfonso Soriano- 3 yars left so doubt that one
    Vernon Wells-hope not
    Alex Rios

    Any others?

  69. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:01 am

    Those 90?s teams also had the best pitching in baseball with Cone, Clemens, Andy, El Duque…”

    Those teams we’re good everywhere

  70. benstein January 15th, 2012 at 10:02 am

    Blake

    If the yankees sign prince fielder there gonna pay top $ and not have a full time position for him and to pay that much for a DH when u already have a pretty good lineup it just doesn’t make sense

  71. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 10:02 am

    Trade target to consider – Seth Smith of the Rockies. He’s got some nice power, good OB skills, good defense – would be a nice little addition to the OF, move Swish to DH

    And even if it’s not for AJ – if the Yankees are going to look for some offense for a year, maybe they go after Carlos Lee?

  72. Villa Nova-Ya January 15th, 2012 at 10:03 am

    We heard nothing about the Pineda deal either.

    I would think at this point the message is clear that the Yankees are eminently able to get their work done without advance fanfare. And that the leaks and tweets we do hear about usually don’t come to fruition, at least on the major deals.

  73. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    Blake –

    Offense and catcher were two different areas of strength. Though I do think that Romine, while no Montero with the bat will be fine offensively.

  74. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 10:05 am

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:55 am
    Stone,

    I see that POV…..those 90s teams had some pretty darn good hitters though…..Jeter, Bernie, Posada were all the young elite level bats at their positions Im talking about that are tough to find if you don’t develop them yourself these days.

    ********

    I am now confused as toward your definition of elite – they were very good – but remember – the elite hitters were crushing HRs – and destroying RBI levels – no those teams were made up very good hitters almost 1-9 – who would grind ABs – but not the MVP headliners of their day. We now have elite hitters on our team – that they are not all 22 or 23 – how does that matter – what matters is how we do in 2012 – finding quality hitters is easier to do from season to season – look at what the Rangers did with Beltre and Napoli last offseason – non-elite hitters who are very good – better to have 1-9 quality than 2 or 3 elite hitters – regardless of their age.

  75. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 10:05 am

    Trader -

    I threw it out there yesterday – Jayson Werth.

  76. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 10:07 am

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:01 am
    Those 90?s teams also had the best pitching in baseball with Cone, Clemens, Andy, El Duque…”

    Those teams we’re good everywhere

    ********

    First – you have to mention David Wells – ’98 he was the staff leader of the greatest team of the past 40 years.

    Best in baseball? The majority at the time saw the Braves as the best – Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz – three future HOFs – that they only one WS shows the unpredictability of postseason baseball. The Yankees staff was on it in the postseason – but I am not sure they would be considered during the regular season as the best in baseball.

  77. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 10:07 am

    Villa-

    Good posts. I believe I read that Joel Sherman had said that this trade has been discussed for a few weeks, although it probably was Felix Hernandez that was initially discussed.

  78. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 10:08 am

    Villa Nova-Ya January 15th, 2012 at 10:03 am
    We heard nothing about the Pineda deal either.

    I would think at this point the message is clear that the Yankees are eminently able to get their work done without advance fanfare. And that the leaks and tweets we do hear about usually don’t come to fruition, at least on the major deals.

    ********

    Great point. But I do concede it is fun to think up of ideas to add to the offense.

  79. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 10:09 am

    Romine needs AB’s. I think even if he rakes in ST, Cervelli is your backup catcher. Romine will be more ready when he comes up to provide backup in the inevitable wake of injury to one of the big league catchers.

  80. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Chip-

    I saw that, but Jason Worth has way too many years left that would hurt the Yankees in 2014 and on, plus he’s a good fielder and not a DH

    I believe Swisher is a better RF’er than Seth Smith so Smith could DH.

  81. LGY January 15th, 2012 at 10:11 am

    They should offer Burnett for Adam Dunn.

  82. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 10:12 am

    Villa –

    I agree completely.

    I said it yesterday, in the biggest media market in the world, at a time where rumors pop up on the internet every hour – how the Yankees and Mariners were able to keep this deal completely under wraps until it was done amazes me. Kudos to both GMs for having a tight grasp on their front offices.

  83. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:13 am

    Ben,

    I think on a one or two year deal it makes sense….if Prince sound accept that. Fielder is one of the best hitters in baseball and pretty much perfect for their lineup.

    Stone,

    Well Jeter is a first ballot HOFer and both Bernie and Posada are borderline candidates……so that’s what id define as elite. The age and injury risks piling up concerns me……I coukd see it coming to a head one year and really hurting

  84. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 10:13 am

    **Werth** not Worth

    Chip -
    Werth’s contract:

    11:$10M, 12:$13M, 13:$16M, 14:$20M, 15:$21M, 16:$21M, 17:$21M
    full no-trade clause

  85. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:14 am

    “They should offer Burnett for Adam Dunn.”

    I thought about that but why would the White Sox do it…..and why would the Yankees want to take on more payroll with that. If the White Sox would make the money close to even then sure

  86. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Blake,

    I don’t know if you saw the January 3 tweet I reposted last night where Rosenthal says Boras is looking for an opt-out for Prince.

    The question is, is there any value in an opt-out after only 2 years? And would the whole contract be enticing enough for Prince to consider NOT opting out if he wants the option of a fair long-term deal?

  87. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 10:15 am

    LGY -

    Initially I wanted to puke when I read that – but in retrospect….not bad. It’s an extra year for the Yankees, but who knows.

    By the way – I’m kind of hoping the Rangers do sign Prince – means Napoli will hit FA next year.

  88. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 10:17 am

    Didn’t Adam Dunn quit/retire??

    I remember there were a lot of people clamoring for the Yankees to sign Adam Dunn to put up 50 homers as a Yankee, year in and year out!!

    Now look at him .064 BA against a lefty.

    LGY- bad joke to make this early on a Sunday. :)

  89. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 10:20 am

    Bret-

    An opt out clause is Boras’ new gold standard for big ticket long term FA’s. Not surprised he would want this, especially for the Nationals , until Fielder can determine that the team will be perennial contenders.

  90. Crawdaddy January 15th, 2012 at 10:20 am

    I thought some of you would’ve come to grips to losing Montero by now.

  91. LGY January 15th, 2012 at 10:20 am

    blake

    Taking on that extra year would be the big risk in that deal. The reason I would consider taking that risk though is because I have no confidence Burnett will bounce back while I believe Dunn will.

  92. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 10:21 am

    Stone,

    Well Jeter is a first ballot HOFer and both Bernie and Posada are borderline candidates……so that’s what id define as elite. The age and injury risks piling up concerns me……I coukd see it coming to a head one year and really hurting

    *******

    Jeter was very good back then at his position – but at the time – he was not even considered the best “hitter” at his position – ARod and Nomar were considered better – Jeter’s elite status has grown since then as the longevity and consistency and accumulation of career stats (3000 hits) plus postseason excellence – but at the the time in 90s – elite.

    Williams – the standard for elite was easy back then – easy – it was Griffey. Williams again was very very very good – but remember – he never hit over 30 HRs – in an era when 50 HRs was the standard – no Williams did the very good things that were needed out of a team loaded 1-9 – but he was not the classic no.4 hitter in an era dominated by (PED no less) of insane homerun and rbi production explosion. Just look at those Texas Rangers team in the 90s – Gonzales, IRod, Palmerio (whether with Os or not), Dean Palmer – or even better those Cleveland teams – with Alomar, Ramirez, Thome – those were the elite at the time. The Yankees had grind the bat – very very very good offenses – but they were stacked at every position with professional hitters – here comes Chili Davis – up Tim Raines off the bench – here comes Knoblauch with YS homeruns off of Glavine in 1999 WS –

    It is 1-9 – not just following an elite bat or two who might hit 35 homeruns. Give me that 1-9 team instead of the other one with a young bat that can hit. It the later scenario – you are just following a player. . . and not the team at large.

  93. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 10:21 am

    Would Prince go for 7 years, 20 million AAV with an opt-out after 2 years? If he rakes in YS after 2 years, he might be able to score a Pujols deal. However, is 20 million AAV close enough to what the Nats might offer so it won’t insult Prince? If the Nats are prepared to offer 25 mil per for Prince, then 20 million is a huge insult. I don’t think I’d want to offer more than 20 million – that increases the chances Prince opts out for more money after raking and keeps the team out of another long-term big contract and also doesn’t block DH for eternity.

  94. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:22 am

    Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 8

    Bartolo colon has a deal. It’s apparently not dbacks or yanks. A’s were among other teams interested. No confirmation.

    Scott Swaim @MLBInsideNews 1

    Sources: #Diamondbacks sign Bartolo Colon to 1 year deal.

    battle of the gossipers

  95. austinmac January 15th, 2012 at 10:24 am

    No Dunn, Rios, Werth etc. None of these guys can do what DHs need to do. Hit.

    Carlos Lee can hit and he is really a DH. However, he is right handed and I am not sure his power numbers would translate with the Yankee stadium left field dimensions. Minute Maid Park is a homer haven in left.

  96. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:25 am

    Stone,

    Nomar was better than Jeter for 2 or 3 years maybe and that’s even arguable…..Williams OPS’d over .900 for like 7 straight seasons…..both were really good and my point is that the Yankees don’t have anybody close to those guys levels on the position player side above A ball anymore.

  97. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 10:26 am

    The Yankees passed on Beltran and could have easily met KW’s asking price for Carlos Quentin. They must have a plan for DH. You don’t move Montero overnight without some contingency plan laid out well in advance.

  98. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:27 am

    I would much rather dump AJ to relieve salary than trade him for the same or more salary for a warty DH……if they can’t do that now then I’d wait until ST when maybe some teams will discover they need pitching.

  99. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:27 am

    Yea….man Beltran for 2/24 would be nice about now.

  100. LGY January 15th, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Burnett for Dunn would never happen but I think it would be an interesting trade.

    I just can’t imagine Dunn went from ~.900 OPS guy to brutally bad so quickly. And of course that short porch is made for his swing.

  101. austinmac January 15th, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Blake,

    I don’t think anyone can really disagree that they have no AA or AAA position prospects who can hit. Not even close.

    That is problem that needs to be addressed.

  102. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:28 am

    If they had any idea that they were going to trade Montero then why didn’t they sign Beltran?……he was dying to come to the Yankees.

  103. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 10:29 am

    what’s this bs about pineda coming over here and developing a change up while being counted on to win big games for the yankees?

    when has any yankee pitcher under the present braintrust developed a change up on the fly like they’ll be trying to do with pineda ?

    this trade is pie in the sky.

    the guy is a two pitch pitcher who throws the crap out of the ball.

    that reminds me of a guy i once caught for a whole winter as he approached his first full year in the majors .that following summer he started for the national league in the 1990 all star game. jack armstrong was 11-3 with a 2.28 era on july 5th. he ended up 12-9 pitching through the end of september.

    what’s my point? jack had two pitches- a 95+ fastball with control and a really good slider. jack ended up 40-65 for his career and never approached his first half season of success again.

    as CB pointed out last night, young pitchers are very erratic in their progress until they settle in around age 25-26 for a variety of reasons. some are health. some are maturity. sometimes it’s simply that a young pitcher has enough to fool hitters for a short time but not the long haul.

    i see nothing about pineda that reminds me of sabathia. when was sabathia ever a two pitch pitcher?
    cashman has made a colossal blunder that will eventually cost him his job.

    cashman supporters totally miss the fact any average gm would have as much success as cashman as had. all he has to do is not to be stupid and try to do something he’s not capable of and that’s trying to be the judge of pitching.

    he’s shown over and over again he has no clue when it comes to pitching development. yes, he can sign a sabathia and have success, but name one starting pitcher cashman’s developed who’s blossomed under his control into a consistent reliable pitcher.

    this trade is as brain dead as bringing in marty miller to give the yankees a rash of hamstring injuries or having hughes and kennedy in the rotation when they were not close to ready or the weird platoon of andy phillips, josh phelps, and mienkiewicz while not giving bernie an extra year because there was no room on the roster because of all the first basemen. of pitching wang with a bad hip and destroying his yankee career. or firing neil allen to watch allen spit out starters for the rays year after year.

    wake up and smell the coffee folks.
    cashman is nothing special at best and at worst he’s a real menace.

    in this case with trading montero, he’s basically said by his actions to yankee fans to not waste one second of their energy rooting for any of their minor league players to become part of the core of the team.

    he’s said by his actions to wait for a very long time before developing a rooting interest in any young yankee. that’s good for developing a fan base that pours money into the yankee coffers ?
    i don’t think so.

    cashman didn’t do a trade that just shows he’s a baseball lightweight. he’s done a trade that shows he has some serious character defects as a human being which is why there is such emotion on the blog with this trade.

  104. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:29 am

    LGY,

    I think Dunn will rebound also….and YS would certainly help…but I can’t think of a reason the White Sox would want AJ unless they were saving a lot of money on the deal…..they’d be better off hoping Dunn rebounded for them I think.

  105. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 10:30 am

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:25 am
    Stone,

    Nomar was better than Jeter for 2 or 3 years maybe and that’s even arguable…..Williams OPS’d over .900 for like 7 straight seasons…..both were really good and my point is that the Yankees don’t have anybody close to those guys levels on the position player side above A ball anymore.

    ********

    But do they even need to at this point? Look I keep coming back to how easy it was for the Rangers to add two bats last offseason – Beltre and Napoli were amazing – and they are not elite. You can add very good hitters – and when you do that – a lineup of very good hitters can surpass a lineup with 2 or 3 elites. It is easier to go season to season with hitters than season to season with pitchers.

  106. Crawdaddy January 15th, 2012 at 10:30 am

    Because the Yankees aren’t worried about their lineup like you are Blake. They probably feel they can get bats when needed.

  107. Chip January 15th, 2012 at 10:31 am

    LGY – you know who would be a great fit? Thome.

  108. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:31 am

    Randy,

    the one thing to like is the Pineda throws strikes at 97 mph….and he has pretty much his entire career….if he continues to do that then even without a CU his floor is probably a #3 starter barring injury…..I don’t like the trade but I love what they got back…..just wish they had traded someone else to get them.

  109. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 10:31 am

    Trading for a young pitcher of Pineda’s caliber must have required an immense amount of planning, deliberation and evaluation. They must have discussed every single other potential target – Gio, Cahill, Latos, Garza. We’re talking about an enormous amount of strategy here to fill a rotation spot. It only follows that they have rock solid plans for any other open spot. So I think the fact that they passed on Beltran and Quentin can be a good sign that they have something better in mind and have been lurking all along for Prince Fielder.

  110. Crawdaddy January 15th, 2012 at 10:32 am

    Randy off the deep end again!

  111. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 10:32 am

    Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 10:30 am
    blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:25 am
    Stone,

    Nomar was better than Jeter for 2 or 3 years maybe and that’s even arguable

    ******

    Come on – Nomar batter .372 – .372 in 2000!! It was more than 2 or 3 – and we are talking the 90s also – that was the time range.

  112. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 10:32 am

    PhiltheThrill January 14th, 2012 at 11:33 pm
    One of the reasons they probably felt compelled to make this stupid trade is the failure of their system to deliver a consistent frontline pitcher since Pettitte. So they felt that had to scrap something they had done right for something they’ve done wrong.
    ///

    This is the bald truth when stripped of all the sidebar noise.

    The failure to develop Joba Chamberlain – to suck it up and turn him loose in 2010 when he could have run without any innings caps, has been the Original Sin that the Yankees continue to pay for. Well, what if he had failed without a leash, what then? We’ll never know now will we? But 2008 and a full starter’s arsenal should have led to more than a open and shut case – to more than just 88.9 career minor league innings.

    Instead of turning Chamberlain loose, or sending him back to AAA for another turn with Aldred, they padlocked him into a bullpen role in order to save those arms. Javy was brought here to “eat innings” and spare the bullpen Joba’s inefficiency, but the “horse” from the NL had trouble getting out of the fifth. Javy merely cost them Arodys Vizcaino, who was, let’s see if I get this straight:

    “just an A-ball pitcher,”
    who had “attitude problems” (I knew this was a red flag when the Yankees started circulating the old “attitude problems” about Montero; whenever you start to repeatedly hear that, they’re planting seeds in the Public Mind. Beware Gary Sanchez),
    who was “injury prone”,
    who would “end up a bullpen lifer,” and,
    who would obediently disappear into vapor or would go the way of Brien Taylor.

    Checking in on the the current day Vizcaino, instead of the made up one on Lohud, we find that:
    He’s ranked 55th in BA’s top 100 ML prospects
    No. 2 in the pitching-rich Braves’ organization, right behind Teheran
    He’s got a promising changeup in development that may sway the Braves to redirect his course from a flame thrower with a first-class breaking pitch reliever in 2012 to a starter’s role beyond.

    That? Was nothing compared to the biggest shadow of all now cast over the Yankees for their capricious regard for their own development of starting pitching: Montero for Michael Pineda.

    This was the biggest price of all to pay, and what have we got? Another big arm who will need to be properly handled, which would be a first when it comes to high-end, high profile young starters.

    The light is that Larry Rothschild is not Dave Eiland, but it’ll take a major adjustment top to bottom in the Yankee organization to resist the hard work and the slings and arrows that come with rolling up the sleeves and actually developing these guys, instead of trying to get a quick BP fix out of them and derailing them forever.

    But the damage done this time is going to be very difficult to recover from, at least until a bat like Sanchez is ready. Of course, he probably won’t even be a Yankee in three years’ time.

  113. LGY January 15th, 2012 at 10:34 am

    LGY – you know who would be a great fit? Thome.

    ——————–

    :mad: Don’t even want to talk about that. :mad:

  114. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:34 am

    “But do they even need to at this point? ”

    If Tex improves from the left side, if Granderson repeats his career year, if Jeter fights off father time, if Arod stays healthy, if Swisher doesn’t freak out trying to impress for free agency…..then no they’ll be fine.

    The flip side to that to that of course is that Tex continues to be awful left handed, Granderson regresses to what he was before last year, Arod gets hurt, Jeter gets older, Swish presses……etc. If those things happen then yea they need some help.

    Now obviously it’s unlikely for all those bad things to happen at once…..but my point is that they are building up a lot of age and injury risk in their lineup…..and now they have no young players on the horizon to balance it out. Basically they had better hope Cano stays healthy.

  115. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 10:35 am

    Please don’t turn this into a support group for Montero mourners.

    Let’s move on and discuss DH. Let’s discuss having 7 starters and a deep farm with many trade options to address LF, RF long term.

  116. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:36 am

    Nomar was a better pure hitter for a few years than Jeter…..but as an overall player not really. Arod was a monster but he doesn’t count

  117. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 10:37 am

    “Randy off the deep end again!”

    have another donut and roll over on your couch fanboy.

  118. Crawdaddy January 15th, 2012 at 10:38 am

    “have another donut and roll over on your couch fanboy.”

    Great comeback after your rant.

  119. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 10:39 am

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:36 am
    Nomar was a better pure hitter for a few years than Jeter…..but as an overall player not really. Arod was a monster but he doesn’t count

    *****

    Now it is changed from elite hitter – b/c this all started with your question – what “hitters” are available under 30 – now we have changed it to player – taking into account I guess defense and intangibles (which w/ Montero are his weaknesses). I am not going to get into player vs. player debate – I am only focusing on hitter b/c that was your original question – Nomar and ARod were at the time considered better elite hitters than Jeter. And why ARod does not count – I have no idea. I respect your posts on this site b/c you appear level headed – but this one has spiraled into a weird direction.

  120. djsunyc January 15th, 2012 at 10:40 am

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 9:10 am
    “. It’s easier to lure a hitter to Yankee Stadium, and impact hitters reach the free agent market more often than impact pitchers. Just look at this year’s market. The top pitchers available were occasional all-stars C.J. Wilson and Mark Buehrle. The top hitters were perennial MVP candidates Albert Pujols and Prince Fielder.”

    I asked this question yesterday. Who is the next impact bat under age 30 at any position that will hit the free agent market after Prince Fielder

    ————–

    blake, 3 seasons ago we got swisher for betemit. 2 seasons ago we got granderson for of prospect and 2 pitchers (and neither projected to the level our prospects are now).

    are they fielder or pujols, no? but they arent’ chopped liver – especially granderson. he almost won the mvp this year. in that time we also signed mark texeira as a FA who was another really good hitter at the time. (you just don’t know how they will perform in ny).

    during that time, our big FA pitcher was burnett with other big FA’s pitcher that year being derek lowe. we tried to sign cliff lee but was shunned. this offseason, the FA pitchers were wilson and yu.

    so yes, i believe getting a good hitter is easier than landing a good pitcher.

    you’re argument is entirely predicated on thinking montero will be manny when nothing is guaranteed.

    making this trade has really no bearing on our WS hopes. we will always make the playoffs barring major injuries. even with arod out 60% of the year last year, we won the division. it all comes down to who is the hottest and luckiest in october. the cards were lucky to make it to the postseason and they carried that momentum deep. and it’s b/c their pitching was good and someone like frieze had a hot 2 weeks.

  121. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 10:41 am

    “But the damage done this time is going to be very difficult to recover from, at least until a bat like Sanchez is ready. Of course, he probably won’t even be a Yankee in three years’ time.”

    and why as a fan spend a moment of time as a yankee fan looking forward to sanchez learning how to become a great yankee?

    he’ll probably be traded by cashman for a two pitch pitcher who has had three months of success for a last place team three years from now as cashman is trying to get some pitching for the rotation that is still weak after him being in full control for 8 years.

  122. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:43 am

    Stone,

    you brought up Jeter and Nomar…..both guys are the level players I’m talking about. Back to the original question…..what potential free agents position players under 30 are on the horizon that fits the Yankees?

  123. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:44 am

    and Arod doesn’t count because he’s the best SS (while he played there) in history….so judging anybody against him is pointless.

  124. Ys Guy January 15th, 2012 at 10:45 am

    this is what makes baseball so GREAT! its january and the giants are playing the pack today and im all jazzed about baseball! it’ll take YEARS to figure out who ‘won’ and in the end it will most likely still be undecided. i think both principles are going to do great.

    I can’t WAIT for opening day! :)

    oh, yeah…GO Giants!

  125. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    djsunyc,

    that’s all true….but I think it’s dangerous to bank on trades like that happening again. Teams aren’t trading offense like the used to because it’s becoming more of a premium commodity.

  126. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    I’m going to focus on how slow Montero is so I can move past this :)

  127. yankee21 January 15th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    There is little in Cashman’s body of work to give me confidence he knows what to do with young pitchers with talent. Either its the coaches he has hired, the development plan or advice he has taken or the guys he’s brought in to pitch, the results are few young pitchers under his watch succeeding to the level expected of them- as Yankees. In my mind I suspect Pineda will in fact regress under the bright lights and big expectations. I hope not but it is a risk.

    Yet Cashman is bringing Pineda in with expectations to be a #2, if he had half a brain he would start preparing Yankee fans that Pineda is still young and developing and not expected to be the #2 guy on the staff.

    Yet Robertson, Nova and Noesi on the other hand seemed to find a way to sneak through the system and actually bear fruit. Noesi in his brief appearances looked fairly polished and almost a finished product yet he was shipped out. I can see Noesi winning 13-14 games for SEA. The question is, why was he not good enough for NYY?

    Why wasn’t the acquisition of Kuroda and the subtraction of AJ considered as the key means to better this pitching staff rather than relinquishing a key bat to maybe get a better pitching staff?

  128. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    and I fully admit that I’m too close to this to probably evaluate it with no bias…..I’ve followed Montero for years and have seen Pineda pitch like 3 times……but I don’t think that changes where I think the Yankees future needs lie and how it doesn’t necessarily line up with the trade they made…..we’ll see.

  129. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 10:49 am

    Pineda is not Phil Hughes. His 2 pitches are flat-out filthy and he can still get outs with them. And I suspect his changeup has more deception and drop than Hughes’. Pineda just needs to learn to use it more, when to use and be able to throw it for strikes.

    Pineda hammered righties and just battered them down to a .184 BAA as a rookie and he throws strikes – so they know what’s coming and STILL can’t hit him.

    He’s not your typical 2-pitch pitcher.

    He doesn’t need a 3rd pitch like Hughes needs one.

    He dominated without one but just grew tired. And if he’s got the positive attitude that CompassRosy described to go along with that raw talent, I see no reason why he won’t work hard enough to refine that changeup and throw it with confidence (something Hughes never had). I see no reason at all why he can’t kick up his game a notch and devote himself to his craft as Ivan Nova did in 2011 – a guy who learned a new pitch mid season as a rookie and incorporated it.

    This fixation on 2 pitches sounds like post-traumatic Hughes stress.

  130. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 10:52 am

    “I’m going to focus on how slow Montero is so I can move past this”

    blake-

    A for effort, but graig nettles couldn’t run a lick and he played a position where quickness was even more important.

    players like nettles and montero are slow below the waist but lightening fast above it.

    nettles was not a great defensive player either when he first came up.

  131. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:53 am

    If Cashman now either signs Prince or uses the surplus of pitching he has to swing a deal for an impact hitter……then I’ll like it a lot better.

  132. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 10:53 am

    “He dominated without one but just grew tired.”

    tired?

    he’s 22.

  133. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Randy,

    focus on the negatives :)

  134. Crawdaddy January 15th, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Blake,

    It’s January 15th. Plenty of time to get a bat for DH.

  135. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Signing Soler makes even more sense now than it did 3 days ago…..gotta start stocking the pantry with bats now.

  136. Ys Guy January 15th, 2012 at 10:55 am

    montero is years away from being a competent fielder. he is hardly a complete player. pineda needs to develop an off-speed pitch. that makes this a very equal trade, both guys have great but incomplete talent. if montero isn’t competent in the field and pineda never develops that off speed pitch, then its a dh for a closer, if they both develop those skills then its a top of the rotation pitcher for a middle of the order hitter.

    unless one or the other fails miserably, its an even trade. time to move on and either keep rooting for the yankees or buy an ichiro jersey.

  137. Crawdaddy January 15th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    People need to look at Pineda’s game log from last season and perhaps they’ll get a better understanding of Pineda’s second half. Of course, I’m talking about reasonable people.

  138. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    Crawdaddy,

    true…..filling it for 2012 isn’t as big an issue as long term and covering the next 3-4 years until some of the guys they have in the lower levels are ready.

  139. blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:58 am

    I love getting Pineda…..his 2nd half last year doesn’t worry me in the least…..from the return standpoint I love the deal…..it’s just the part they gave up I’m struggling with. We have to see what this move leads to though first before judging and the final evaluation of the deal likely won’t happen for 4 or 5 years if not longer. If Pineda flames out but Campos turns into Felix Hernandez down the road then…..it still could be ok….

  140. Crawdaddy January 15th, 2012 at 10:58 am

    Blake,

    Are you really worried that the Yankees won’t get some hitters in the next 3-4 years? Chances are the Yankees other than CC will have a low cost, but highly talented starting staff. With that advantage, they can spend money on getting some batters after 2012.

  141. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 10:59 am

    Right, Randy and at 22 he’s still building innings and arm strength. Sabathia at 22 was building strength as well and now he’s a workhorse. If Pineda can stay healthy (and injury is a risk with any pitcher as you well know) he’s going to be a workhorse as well. This guy learned on the fly pitching in the big leagues and posted the lowest BAA vs. righties. He destroyed them – with 2 pitches. He needs to throw more offspeed stuff in order to conserve energy. I think he has the baseball IQ to do that as he doesn’t throw upper 90′s although he is perfectly capable of touching upper 90′s whenever he wants. Give this guy some credit for the numbers he posted as a 22 year old learning on the fly. The Yankees scouts – not just Brian Cashman – seem to be all about this guy and the rest of baseball believes the Yankees scored big here. And I have to give Brian Cashman credit for growing a sac. I had my doubts and was vocal about them.

  142. Crawdaddy January 15th, 2012 at 11:00 am

    By the way, I think AJ is gone by this time next year. I wouldn’t be surprise if Hal has already signed off eating his contract to get him out of here.

  143. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 11:01 am

    randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 10:41 am
    “But the damage done this time is going to be very difficult to recover from, at least until a bat like Sanchez is ready. Of course, he probably won’t even be a Yankee in three years’ time.”

    and why as a fan spend a moment of time as a yankee fan looking forward to sanchez learning how to become a great yankee?

    he’ll probably be traded by cashman for a two pitch pitcher who has had three months of success for a last place team three years from now as cashman is trying to get some pitching for the rotation that is still weak after him being in full control for 8 years.
    ///

    I am already rethinking plans to visit Charleston to see this kid. Saw him 3X at Lakewood in 2010 & was excited enough to flirt with a very long car ride…

    It’s a killer. My brother was crestfallen on the phone yesterday “I was looking forward to watching him hit all summer…” we just sat on the phone and said nothing for about 2 minutes.

    I’m out. Keep kicking Cashman’s ass, Randy. Some of us REALLY need those posts about now.

  144. Crawdaddy January 15th, 2012 at 11:01 am

    I don’t think Cashman makes this deal without his scouts pushing him to do so.

  145. blake January 15th, 2012 at 11:02 am

    “Are you really worried that the Yankees won’t get some hitters in the next 3-4 years?”

    Who?

  146. Crawdaddy January 15th, 2012 at 11:03 am

    “Who?”

    Cashman will work that out in good time just like he did with Granderson and Swisher.

  147. Mike_Boston January 15th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    Randy,
    Pujols and Fielder are/were available this winter, while CJ Wilson and an unknown commodity like Darvish were the top 2 arms. Can anyone even compare those 2 sets of top talents, it’s not even close. This is the new way of business in MLB, young pitching stays put. If you look at the rookie season the kid had, with the worst run support in MLB, at the ripe age of 22, this kid has ace written all over him. The Mariners are a rare case where they have the young pitching but need the bad and don’t have the budget for Fielder, they had to make this deal if they wanted to score some runs.

    Of course Cashman took some major risk here, but a bat can be replaced by $ while an arm like Pineda’s can not. I can’t even believe I’m going to quote Schilling here but what he said yesterday was enough to make me believe in this deal: You never EVER trade 22 yr old P that throw 95-100, are huge, can start..don’t care how good a bat you get

  148. jacksquat January 15th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 10:46 am
    I’m going to focus on how slow Montero is so I can move past this

    Babe Ruth was slow.

    Hope that helps. :grin:

  149. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 11:05 am

    This is for Cash & Co.

    Good day.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5R_pS0h5Qk

  150. Mike_Boston January 15th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    meant bat not bad

  151. RWhite January 15th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    Just a thought….if we have to concern ourselves with an arm injury derailing a pitchers career then we also have to consider the fact that Montero came up as a catcher, is considered a catcher and will probably be given a chance as Seattle’s starting catcher. This also puts the longevity and productivity of his career into question. Even without injury his production will suffer with time. There is risk for both sides, let’s see how it plays out.

  152. G. Love January 15th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    I honestly really felt for you guys who followed Montero through every level. While I didn’t do that myself, this blog has been a window into seeing fans do that.

    When I saw the deal go down I also felt a little sick inside because I was there to see him hit in Yankee Stadium. It felt like a Yankee legend was born. I’m stunned a bit that the Steinbrothers didn’t put their foot down on this because they need heroes in that lineup when Jeter takes the uniform off. Texeira, Swisher are not heroes. Arod is almost an anti-hero at times. Cano, Gardner, Granderson have that kind of feel to them in their own ways.

    Montero felt different. Like he was the guy who was going to tie the lineup together going forward.

    My argument to Cashman would have been this – why do Arod and Pujols and Texeira make more money per year than most starting pitchers?

    Somewhere in baseball there is more value in a everyday bat that can hit with premium numbers.

    Cashman has to be convinced that Montero isn’t that bat. If he turns into that bat, even if Pineda is a good #2, it still doesn’t make sense. I get it that Montero had no position, but I feel that was more steered from Girardi and what he expects out of the catching position than the reality of throwing the kid back there for 40 games next year to break him in slow like they did with Jorge.

    On the flip side the one thing I love that I’m hearing about Pineda is he has Nova’s presence on the mound.

    I love Nova. I think I would be devastated if they traded him. He proved it’s more about your brains and your heart than it is about what some prospect guru claims your ceiling was last season. In my eyes he put Phil Hughes to shame last year developing his arsenal and getting better and more centered on the mound as the season went on.

    If Pineda has that makeup and high ceiling talent then I understand why this deal was made. I don’t want to see some high ceiling bonus baby who is scared on the mound. I want the guy with a chip on his shoulder who dares the hitter to beat him.

    I hope that is who Pineda is here. I hope he embraces the attitude and becomes the guy here. I hope to see him buzz some Red Sox hitters when Chicken & Beer Beckett decides to play target practice with our guys.

    Basically, because they dealt Jesus for him, I have huge expectations for Pineda. Not from day one, but let’s see a slow build into becoming the guy like Nova has shown us.

    The difference between Nova and a guy like Hughes is Nova kept progressing. Remember when the rap on him was he couldn’t get past the 4th, 5th inning? He blew through that. Hughes seems to get himself close to the top of the mountain and then falls back down every time.

    I’m not in love with this trade yet. I need to see what Pineda does in pinstripes. If the guy goes out there and is a force who can K a guy per inning and doesn’t walk the ball park he’ll quickly become a “real Yankee” here.

    But if Montero lives up to the hype and Pineda is a merely good middle rotation starter Cashman should be fired for this one. He put everything on the line with this deal in my eyes.

    And his offense needs a bat. They need Prince. If he thinks riding Tex, Swisher and Arod again along with hoping Granderson hits 40Hr’s is the plan for this offense he’s going to be in for a rude awakening.

    I was okay with the patience plan for this off season because I thought adding Montero to the lineup would mask the failure of Swisher and Tex against RHP.

    Without Montero’s promise in the lineup there is a major hole on this team. Any RHP pitcher who can get those turkeys to 2 strikes can bounce the ball on the mound first and get them to swing at it.

    There needs to be another move made. A real competent hitter is needed. That’s for sure.

  153. pat January 15th, 2012 at 11:07 am

    Yankees biggest offensive need last year seemed to be situational hitting. There are some players who are great situational hitters that may not fit the “elite” hitter category as you are defining it. Perhaps an elite hitter is not what they need most right now.

    When fans react to trades now, I always think back to fan reaction of trades like Brosius or O’Neill. Lots of focus on what the Yankees gave up rather than on what they were getting back.

  154. blake January 15th, 2012 at 11:07 am

    “Babe Ruth was slow”

    The Babe was deceptively agile…..kinda like Prince Fielder :)

    Craw,

    Hope you’re right.

  155. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 11:08 am

    6. While you never say never on a long-term deal for Jacoby Ellsbury, it appears the Sox will attempt to settle on a one-year fix to avoid arbitration by Tuesday’s deadline. Ellsbury will likely get a huge increase on his $2.4 million paycheck after his tremendous season.

    *******

    From Cafardo – another young elite hitter on the horizon possibly going towards FA in the future. . . . interesting, interesting. . . .

  156. jacksquat January 15th, 2012 at 11:08 am

    I don’t see how Jack Armstrong is relevant. He was 25 and had only 6 K/9 the year mentioned.

  157. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 11:10 am

    It’s amazing the Yankees were able to acquire a young potential ace while keeping Banuelos, Betances, Sanchez and Mason Williams out of the deal. Plus they got Campos. They did a fantastic job leveraging Montero. They are stocked with pitching amidst an offseason where some team paid over 50 million dollars just to talk to an unknown commodity.

    The offense with Posada scored the 2nd most runs in 2011.

    Meanwhile there are 7 starters, 5 minor league arms with 2 being top prospects. Depaula. Campos.

    And we’re worried about how to replace Posada short term and how to replace Montero long term when Prince Fielder is on the market and the Yankees are the richest team in baseball.

    Now carry on with the support group for Montero mourners.

  158. blake January 15th, 2012 at 11:10 am

    G . Love,

    I agree with pretty much that entire post.

  159. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 11:11 am

    “montero is years away from being a competent fielder. he is hardly a complete player. pineda needs to develop an off-speed pitch.”

    y’s guy-

    we don’t necessarily agree on much , but i consider you one of the good posters who make contributions to the baseball discussion.

    but do you not see with your own eyes that montero is an elite hitter who fit yankee stadium perfectly. how could any pitcher pitch to him away in that stadium with his ability to flick the ball in the right field seats.

    pitch him in then. that’s not gonna work for long. we all saw how he handled the pressure of being a yankee in the play offs. he’s not just some young good hitter. the kid was a special yankee.

    pineda?
    develop a change up?
    come on. when has the yankees coaching staff ever developed a young pitcher’s change up?

    how’s burnett’s change up coming by the way?

    the most likely scenario for a pitcher like pineda is he’ll be a relief pitcher by the time he’s 26-27.

  160. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 11:12 am

    All you people that simply Love Montero have just gotta come to grips with the fact the guy simply aint a catcher, and is a KID that is already a full-time DH. Cashman sold as high as possible before it became absolutely clear that the emperor had no clothes. Pineda’s 2011 2nd half is certainly cause for concern, but when weighed against Montero’s value dropping as the upcoming 2012 season progressed AND unclogging that DH Slot for Jeet and A-Rod, Cashman was forced to pull the trigger ASAP for the best value available. To me, the greater loss to the Yankees is Noesi. Over the course of time, this trade will be evaluated by comparing the overall performance of Pineda vs Noesi. The Yanks have to hope the difference betwen the 2 Chuckers will Not be incremental but substantial.

  161. yankee21 January 15th, 2012 at 11:12 am

    Ellsbury is crazy if he doesn’t demand the moon from BOS. They treated him like a pariah in 2010 when he was injured. I imagine there is not a lot of love happening there.

  162. blake January 15th, 2012 at 11:14 am

    Hopefully the Rangers will be tapped out after Darvish and Prince doesn’t want to play for the Nats…

  163. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 11:14 am

    Montero felt different. Like he was the guy who was going to tie the lineup together going forward.

    *********

    People who project this on the kid only have themselves to blame – that is way too much projection IMO. In this day and age – we come up with what we want to see and make it real before it happens INSTEAD of just letting it happen.

  164. 86w183 January 15th, 2012 at 11:15 am

    I don’t see the Yanks eating huge $$$ on AJ.

    A trade for Jason Bay might make sense for both teams and is essentially a financial wash. the Mets are going to be bad offensively so why not try to load up on arms. AJ, in that park and getting away from AL East lineups could have a major bounce back year.

  165. Mike_Boston January 15th, 2012 at 11:15 am

    There is no way in hell Ellsbury is signing with the sox, unless they can dump Crawford. 250 million $ on 2 slightly built outfielders, no way is that happening…you know he won’t take a penny less than Crawford, especially with they he was treated 2 seasons ago and with Boras calling the shots.

  166. blake January 15th, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Ellsbury is one guy I can see making free agency…..but he needs to stay healthy and show the power is real……another is Zimmerman if the Nats believe in Rendon and if they were to sign Prince.

  167. blake January 15th, 2012 at 11:17 am

    AJ for Bay is kinda interesting…..id rather just salary dump AJ but that may not be an option…….is Bay washed up though?

  168. 108 stitches January 15th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    It is what it is. Nothing short of bad physicals will change anything Cashman has done. Is the Yankee pitching better than they were before Friday ? A high percentage will say yes. Nothing was etched in stone that Jesus Montero would be a Yankee for life. Many teams would like the state of catching the Yankees have and there’s more on the way.
    Cashman said weeks ago it was pitching-pitching-pitching. Baseball hasn’t changed in at least one respect. You get nothing unless you give something up.

    Cashman is not finished …….

  169. G. Love January 15th, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Ellsbury was treated God awful in Boston and he isn’t giving them the wittle Pedey, Youk brain dead discount. He’ll go to free agency and hope the Dodgers, Cubs and Yankees are all ready to bid big.

    I expect Boston to try to deal him for prospects Gammons will salivate over during the next year or if the team isn’t a 90 win team going forward.

  170. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Bobby V as usual just can’t shut up. Like the guy doesn’t have a bushel basket of R\Sox problems, he has to create even more by bad mouthing the Yankee Trade. Absolutely dumb and arrogant.

  171. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 11:22 am

    “I don’t see how Jack Armstrong is relevant. He was 25 and had only 6 K/9 the year mentioned.”

    he was a two pitch pitcher. i caught him and i’m telling you he was 95+ with great control and a really good slider.

    the fact he started the all star game for the national league with a low 2 era backs up how good he was.

    but two pitch starters even when they have two plus pitches have a problem when the league gets to know them after a few times around, and also when inevitable injuries happen in their early career.

    at some point they need to become pitchers.
    if pineda was a pitcher and not just a thrower why did he get hammered once teams saw him a few times?

    i see pineda as an interesting pitcher, but not anything special enough to give up an elite hitter like montero. this is not an equal risk trade. there is much more chance that a young pitcher will have career threatening injury or injuries than a position player.

  172. yankee21 January 15th, 2012 at 11:23 am

    108- I don’t think Cashman is finished either. I expect him to add Gustavo Molina to the 40 man roster any day now.

    Afterall with Montero out of there, it finally clears up a roster spot for a real catcher so Joe G can be happy.

  173. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 11:28 am

    The Yankee Clubhouse was headed for trouble with Montero’s attitude.There is a protocol\decorum that Rookies are expected to follow. Montero Repeatedly violated that in his short time in NY.

  174. mick January 15th, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Montero’s attitude is the unknown factor here and nobody here knows anything about that.

  175. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 11:31 am

    “The Yankee Clubhouse was headed for trouble with Montero’s attitude.There is a protocol\decorum that Rookies are expected to follow. Montero Repeatedly violated that in his short time in NY.”

    montero should have never told cashman to get him that coffee that time.

  176. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 11:32 am

    DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 11:28 am
    The Yankee Clubhouse was headed for trouble with Montero’s attitude.There is a protocol\decorum that Rookies are expected to follow. Montero Repeatedly violated that in his short time in NY.

    ********

    Did you get that from Joel Sherman? I seem to remember him writing about that back in October/November.

  177. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 11:32 am

    “Cashman is not finished …….”

    done

    dead man walking.

    going to be theo’s special assistant in chicago.

  178. jacksquat January 15th, 2012 at 11:33 am

    randy l., I’m not disbelieving you caught him and his stuff was good, but he was a 6 K/9 pitcher at 25, and Pineda is 9 K/9 at 22, with good control. I get the two pitch pitcher concern, but I think it’s a little early to even be mentioning relief pitcher.

    I have reservations about trading Montero as well, and I agree that Pineda is more risky.

    And I know you’re probably not an advanced statistics type of guy, but the stats do show that Pineda’s second half of 2011 wasn’t anywhere near as bad as it seems just looking at the ERA.

  179. 108 stitches January 15th, 2012 at 11:33 am

    Jason Bay for Burnett is almost a wash. Almost the same salaries & same length of contracts. Bay would have to waive his no trade clause. The cash strapped Mets would want an OF such as Justin Maxwell to replace Bay and the additional $500,000 difference in salaries. Throw in Kevin Whelan and another pitcher to the Mets as a good borough neighbor policy.

    Jason Bay of
    4 years/$66M (2010-13), plus 2014 option
    ?4 years/$66M (2010-13), plus 2014 option

    ?signed by NY Mets as a free agent 1/5/10
    ?$8.5M signing bonus
    ?10:$6.5M, 11:$16M, 12:$16M, 13:$16M, 14:$17M club option ($3M buyout)

    ?2014 option guaranteed with 600 PAs in 2013 or 500 PAs in both 2012, 2013
    ?full no-trade clause

  180. blake January 15th, 2012 at 11:33 am

    Cashman can redeem himself by figuring out a way to trade for Andrew MuCutchen :)

  181. PhiltheThrill January 15th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    Austin Romine is not the answer.

  182. blake January 15th, 2012 at 11:38 am

    Bay isn’t much better a hitter than AJ is a pitcher at this point though…..

  183. Mike Ri January 15th, 2012 at 11:39 am

    Cashman still isnt done yet

    We stll need to dump AJ and fill the DH role.

    I like the Jason Bay for Aj idea alot..makes sense for both teams

  184. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 11:39 am

    In order of cost in salary and prospects it would take – Upton (high price in prospects and salary), McCutchen (high price in prospects), Gordon (prospects and two years from FA I believe), Brown (cost prospects) – who would people want?

  185. blake January 15th, 2012 at 11:40 am

    A Pena/Jones platoon would probably be a lot More productive than Jason Bay.

  186. dogface January 15th, 2012 at 11:43 am

    A Pena/Jones platoon would probably be a lot More productive than Jason Bay

    ==========================

    By a good margin too. Doesn’t sound like Pena is all that interested though. He’s an excellent defensive 1B. Sounds like he’d prefer a gig where he’s primary 1B rather than a platoon DH.

  187. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 11:44 am

    DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 11:28 am
    The Yankee Clubhouse was headed for trouble with Montero’s attitude.There is a protocol\decorum that Rookies are expected to follow. Montero Repeatedly violated that in his short time in NY.

    ——————————-

    Yet they tolerate Aj and all his bs.

  188. CB January 15th, 2012 at 11:44 am

    I’m going to be honest here –

    These comments from the yankees make me feel worse about this deal.

    I’ve been making the point about the distribution of risk in this deal here many times. The Yankees confirm this:

    “The least risky attribute of everything going on is the bat,” one source said. “And (the Mariners) got the bat.”

    This is the rub of the entire deal. Yes on face, it was a great trade because equivalent “value” was exchanged in terms of talent. Teams were just exchanging “pieces” to meet different needs. That’s how it’s being interpreted. This is why I described the trade as the kind of trade you’d read about in an economics book – two teams with different utility functions exchanging “assets.”

    But the value on face of the asset is the only thing that is being exchanged. You are also exchanging different forms of risk.

    So if you are exchanging the assets of the same nominal value, but one side gets stuck with the risk – then that’s really no longer a “fair” deal. The Yankees should get back more value on face than they gave up to make up for the difference in risk. I suppose you can say Campos does that – but he’s only 19. He so far away he himself is filled with risk.

    And the other concerning part of these comments is the following:

    t’s easier to lure a hitter to Yankee Stadium, and impact hitters reach the free agent market more often than impact pitchers.

    If the yankees believe this then they are simply working off a false hypothesis. This is just false.

    It’s as if we are still stuck in 2002 not 2012.

    The gnawing feeling in my gut is getting stronger…

  189. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 11:46 am

    dogface January 15th, 2012 at 11:43 am
    A Pena/Jones platoon would probably be a lot More productive than Jason Bay

    ==========================

    By a good margin too. Doesn’t sound like Pena is all that interested though. He’s an excellent defensive 1B. Sounds like he’d prefer a gig where he’s primary 1B rather than a platoon DH.

    *******

    Too bad – don’t blame him – he would be part of a platoon – b/c I see against lefties – the Yanks will have some combo of: Jones in LF, ARod DH, and Nunez at 3b. . . .

  190. dogface January 15th, 2012 at 11:47 am

    Off topic, but someone needs to inform ESPN that the clock has struck midnight on T. Tebow.

  191. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 11:49 am

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 11:02 am

    “Are you really worried that the Yankees won’t get some hitters in the next 3-4 years?”

    Who?

    ————————

    That’s the thing there is no one. Pitching has moved around more than hitting the problem is the Yankees couldn’t acquire it so it seemed like acquiring pitching in general was impossible.

  192. 86w183 January 15th, 2012 at 11:49 am

    I don’t think Bay is washed up. He’s only 33, he was healthier and more productive last year.

    He had a .918 OPS vs LHP… would be better fit if he had that OPS vs RHP, but you’re not likely to get a better option in terms of getting something/someone useful for AJ.

    Another thought might be Nick Markakis who is trending seriously downward.

  193. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 11:49 am

    “And I know you’re probably not an advanced statistics type of guy, but the stats do show that Pineda’s second half of 2011 wasn’t anywhere near as bad as it seems just looking at the ERA.”

    i get that. but come on , two pitches. people are being delusional that a two pitch pitcher is going to dominate with such a limited arsenal.

    i would also worry about a pitcher who doesn’t have the creativity at that age to have more pitches.
    that was the problem with armstrong. he didn’t have the mental inclination to develop a third pitch.

    one day tony cloninger came over and showed jack a split finger grip and after tony instructed him jack threw maybe the nastiest split finger pitch in baseball history which bounced in front of home plate after the bottom dropped out of it. jack threw another one. same thing happened. unhitable pitches.

    jack looked at tony and said” i can’t throw that pitch. it moves to much.”

    true story.

  194. yanks61 January 15th, 2012 at 11:49 am

    Look, I’m not saying that Pineda is the 2nd coming of little Ron Guidry. For one thing he’s RH and for another a lot bigger! However, I’ve read that Lyle taught Guidry a slider while they were both in the BP (though it’s true Martin wasn’t using him) – in just a couple of months.

    Yet, according to what I’ve also read, when he finally was called up, “He had but two pitches, the heater and the slider, hard and harder. Who needed more? Guidry began to earn a nickname Louisiana Lightning. People started to marvel at the Yankees’ at this free-throwing freak of nature: a 5-11, 152-pound man who could fire a ball in the upper 90s.”

    So there are indeed pitchers with exceptional stuff and control who have, historically, succeeded with only two pitches. But here’s the thing, unlike Gator, Pineda already has two pitches and like Guidry, he can still learn another. Meanwhile, also like Guidry, he can’t be blowing them away with only two pitches?

  195. Melkmanisinhotlanta January 15th, 2012 at 11:49 am

    Monterro will hit .320, 28, 97 rbi obp .387

  196. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 11:50 am

    Yanks could do more offensively AND defensively with a Damon\Jones Platoon than a Pena\Jones Platoon. I would hang ontta AJ if the sole altenative is Bay. Now, if the Yanks were to expand the deal and somehow get the Mets to include Daniel Murphy, I would do it then.

  197. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 11:52 am

    - yanks61 -
    Good to see ya.

  198. Melkmanisinhotlanta January 15th, 2012 at 11:54 am

    Pinata is Humberto Sanchez…so sad

  199. PhiltheThrill January 15th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    Most pitchers with 2 pitches are relief pitchers. The third pitch most starters have is to help them get through the lineup 2 or three times.

  200. Ys Guy January 15th, 2012 at 11:56 am

    man, alot of people OD’d on the kool-ade. for almost 2 days i keep reading that montero is mickey mantle, miguel cabrera and now, babe ruth.

    get a grip.

  201. Ys Guy January 15th, 2012 at 11:59 am

    damon had 2 entire months last year when his obp was under .300.

    for the season his obp slipped 30 pts.

    love johnny, but no thanks.

  202. DJSpellBound January 15th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    First Time Poster here and I figured I post up some thoughts.

    First I hated to see Montero go, I’ve been following him for some time.

    Second, Pineda still has to develop his third pitch….a changup presumably.
    We have not heard yet that Pineda was going to be directly plugged into the rotation. Just because he pitched out of the number 2 spot for the Mariners doesn’t necessarily mean that he is an automatic to be plugged into the Yankee Pitching rotation.
    The reason why I say this is because we still have 7 pitchers, and unless Cashman unloads one of them (cough, A.J. cough) Pineda could still be the guy fighting for the number 5 spot or be put back into Triple A to refine his third pitch until he is ready. I know it sounds silly but without Pineda, we would have a rotation that consists of C.C./Nova/Kuroda/Hughes/Burnett&Garcia. (Flip them however you want)
    I can’t see Hughes going back to the bullpen, he’s more valuable as a starter.

    My 2 Cents.

  203. 86w183 January 15th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    Ys Guy —

    Montero is better than all of those guys and Pineda is a poor man’s Jose Contreras

    Bummer that

  204. randy l. January 15th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    “But the value on face of the asset is the only thing that is being exchanged. You are also exchanging different forms of risk.”

    cb-

    i personally would never trade an early twenties top prospect offensive player for an early twenties top prospect pitcher because of the much higher risk of a pitcher being injured .

    i also believe if the yankees are not getting their kind of guys in the yankee minor league system and developing them with their own core principles then they are wasting a huge amount of opportunity developing home grown players.

    when i add up all the different facets of the trade i absolutely hate it.

    will the yankees make the playoffs in 2012?
    sure they will.
    of course this just shows how difficult it is to evaluate cashman because he has such a tolerance for screwing up.

    will i stop being a yankee fan?
    no.
    will i watch less this year without montero?
    probably, i was very excited to watch this kid, and i don’t get excited by too many young players.

  205. jacksquat January 15th, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    randy l., if it makes you feel any better, Pineda did start throwing a changeup in the latter part of 2011, and supposedly it is pretty good. And we know the Yankees push the changeup like a crack dealer.

    I have many reservations about trading Montero, also sharing the opinion that he should not have been ruled out as a catcher. But I’m also optimistic about Pineda, he has a great foundation and only needs a good 3rd pitch, and is plenty young enough to learn one.

  206. jacksquat January 15th, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    Ys Guy January 15th, 2012 at 11:56 am
    man, alot of people OD’d on the kool-ade. for almost 2 days i keep reading that montero is mickey mantle, miguel cabrera and now, babe ruth.

    get a grip.

    lol, my Babe Ruth comment was a joke. I thought that would be obvious. Get a grip yourself.

  207. 86w183 January 15th, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    DJSB —-

    Welcome to the insanity. Assuming they’re all healthy no one is going to the minors.

    Two will be dealt, or one will go and one will head to the pen. Pineda is a lock for the rotation in my view. Hughes is more valuable as a starter, true but he’s also been MUCH better out of the pen and is the most likely to end up there.

  208. mick January 15th, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    randy, why are you equating jack armstrong to pineda?
    isn’t it possible he can learn to throw a change, maybe he even falls in love with it, unlike armstrong.
    didn’t nova learn? why can’t pineda?
    it seems that is the intangible here.

  209. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    If the Yankees can fill the DH spot thru a trade of Burnett for a like contract, then they are no worse off in terms of paying the luxury tax that they’d owe on signing a FA DH for some 4-8M. Otherwise if they dump Burnett of trade him for a bag of balls, their still on the hook for LT applied to that portion they are picking up, even if he’s no longer on the 40 man roster.

    Burnett might be willing to go crosstown to the Mets.

  210. yankfan January 15th, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    what a HORRIBLE trade this was for NYY

    pineada is a 2 pitch fly ball pitcher who has a 4.7 era in the AL east and had a terrible 2nd half

    everywhere you read, it says he needs to develop a 3rd pitch to attain ace status…isnt this the same problem that plagued AJ and Phil? no 3rd pitch to keep hitters off balance when their fastball isnt working? and you give up your best prospect of the decade to get a 3rd such pitcher? cashman needs to be fired

  211. stuckey January 15th, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    So I see the LoHud forum is still mired in its annual group insecurity despite the 2012 Yankees AGAIN being a virtual lock for the postseason this year.

    If the postseason the past few years, particularly this last one, when the team with the second lowest scoring differential (by a run), who qualified for the PS as a wildcard in their 162 game, due only to a epic collapse by another team, went onto win the World Series, has taught us ANYTHING, is that you don’t construct a championship team by WAR and/or on paper.

    You qualify for the PS and HOPE to get hot.

    Yanks scored the second most runs in baseball last year, second only to a team that didn’t qualify for the postseason.

    They WILL score plenty again this season, on their way their annual 95+ wins.

    Micro-analysis beyond that is utterly superfluous. Anyone determined to try to predict a first round 5 game PS series based on Friday’s events do so at the risk of being really, really ridiculous.

    As to where the runs (enough runs to qualify for the PS) are coming from 2, 3, 4 years down the road, any baseball fan who’s observation of the game is clearheaded and not clouded by aforementioned insecurity knows its pure folly to try to make those sort of predictions 2 or 3 years ahead.

  212. Ys Guy January 15th, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    damon needs to go where he can hit every day if he’s going to make it to 3000, the yankees isnt really a fit for him anyway.

  213. G. Love January 15th, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    It’s a bit comical that Pineda is getting ripped for being a 2 pitch pitcher in here when Hughes was defended voraciously for being a 2 pitch pitcher in here when people would criticize his lack of arsenal. I recall a lot of “he only needs 2 pitches if he has fastball command” defenses of Hughes in here ad nauseum over the years.

  214. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    Having 7 starters should be a luxury but I believe you have to pencil in AJ because no team wants to pay for him. So even if you make Garcia a long-man to start the year, Hughes is left without a rotation spot.

    So the real question in my mind is what happens with Hughes.

    Hughes either goes to AAA, the bullpen or gets traded.

  215. Giuseppe Franco January 15th, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    Those who are clamoring for Prince Fielder are going to be very disappointed.

    It doesn’t make sense in so many ways, especially since this is a team aggressively trying to LOWER their payroll.

    Secondly, aside from the cash, what do you do if Girardi wants to give A-Rod a day to DH?

    You’d either have to sit Teixeira or Fielder or instead just give A-Rod a full day off – which means you are taking one of your best run producers out of the lineup.

    Best case scenario would see the Yanks playing in the World Series in 2012. But what do you do in the NL ballpark where there is no DH (and during interleague games for that matter)???

    You’re playing the biggest series of the season and you’re forced to sit one of your best run producers?

    It’s a hell of a lot easier to sit an Andruw Jones/Carlos Pena than it is a Teixeira, A-Rod, or Fielder.

    Fielder is a pipe dream. Never gonna happen.

  216. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    You guys can question Pineda and his 2 Pitches all ya want, but the Bigger question is the Fact that Kuroda has NEVER pitched in the AL. At least Pineda has had some limited success in the AL, and is still improving. Kuroda = Box of Cracker Jacks.

  217. Ys Guy January 15th, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    i guess i shouldn’t be surprised by people’s reaction since so many on here thought we were going to get a #2 without giving up any of our top 3 prospects.

  218. blake January 15th, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    This trade has brought everyone in….hi Stuckey.

    I don’t think Pineda can be evaluated as a typical two pitch guy……because 1) he’s 23 years old 2) would because hes 6’7 and throws 95+ for strikes.

  219. mick January 15th, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    i for one was enfatuated with jesus but for some reason am surprisingly calm about this departure, almost relieved. the pressure on him would have been unbearable and god forbid he got off to a bad start. they are loaded with catchers and have HOF hitters at every IF position with a MVP candidate in CF.
    One or 2 more hits or a fly ball last year and theyre in the ALCS.
    As far as trading a top prospect pitcher for a hitter, why weren’t guys like Kershaw or King Felix dealt?

  220. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    - Ys -
    Just what team is gonna play Damon everyday? NO team is gonna offer him that. He is now a 4th OF’er\LH platoon DH, which fit the Yanks.

  221. blake January 15th, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    “Those who are clamoring for Prince Fielder are going to be very disappointed.”

    Im not expecting it…..so I wont be disappointed……but it does make all kinds of sense if its a short term deal. He’d make the Yankees significantly better ans would help balance out some of the risk Theys currently have in their lineup.

  222. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    I was not in favor of trading away an elite young hitter, tailor made for YS. However the asking price for other team’s #1′s like Mat Latos and Gio Gonzalez, would have included either Betances or Banuelos plus 2 others along with Montero.

    CB-If you believe that Michael Pineda is already better than Mat Latos, than we got a pretty good pitcher.

    BTW, Safeco allowed the 13th most homers/game out of all 30 ML stadiums. Smoak hit 10 of his 15 homers there. I thought they’d be lower on the list.

  223. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    Pineda’s 2 pitches are filthy. Hughes 2 pitches are inconsistent. Either his fastball is flat or low velocity. Or his curve is a looper.

    No comparison.

    Pineda held righties to a .184 BAA, that includes his second half.

    No comparison.

    Pineda has confidence to throw his change. Hughes has never had any confidence to speak of and neither has Burnett when it comes to throwing the change.

    No comparison.

  224. Melkmanisinhotlanta January 15th, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    The fool Cashman is trying to outsmart us but in the heat of September, we saw Jesus save. Oh yes my non Christian friends, he saved you as well. Cashman the clown once again blunders.

  225. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    Both ends of a Fielder signing just don’t fit. Why would Fielder take the short $$$ ? Why would the Yanks once again clog the DH Slot after just clearing it for Jeet and A-Rod? Just notta fit here. I could live with Pena as the cheaper Platoon option.

  226. Giuseppe Franco January 15th, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    “Those who are clamoring for Prince Fielder are going to be very disappointed.”

    Im not expecting it…..so I wont be disappointed……but it does make all kinds of sense if its a short term deal. He’d make the Yankees significantly better ans would help balance out some of the risk Theys currently have in their lineup.

    ————

    Nah, you’re one of the more common sense posters. But some (okay, one fool) still thinks this is a video game.

    Hell, I’d like to have Fielder, too. But the thought of them adding that kind of cheddar is not even remotely realistic.

  227. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    Mariners also have 2 good lefty starters in their minor league system, one of which is just turned, 23 yo James Paxton, who has improved his stock dramatically in his first full professional season, posting a 2.37 ERA and 131/43 K/BB ratio over 95 innings between Class A Clinton and Double-A Jackson.

    Is Campos projected to be better?

  228. Melkmanisinhotlanta January 15th, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    Picking up Fielder would contradict the new MO of the NYY. Why pay top dollar for him when his best years are behind him. The same stupid trap.

  229. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    Donnybrook,

    Boras is looking for an opt-out for Prince.

    Offer 7 years at 20 million AAV and an opt-out after 2 years.

    There’s a chance Prince takes that contract over the Nats offer and opts out after 2 years for a Pujols contract.

    Win-win for the Yankees avoiding another long term deal and win for Prince getting an opportunity to play where he wants to play, a place where he can rake 50 HR’s and cash-in in a couple of years.

  230. mick January 15th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    Needless to say with the Prince breathing down the back of Tex, it could improve his concentration on being the hitter he can be, not the slugger. Prince with an opt out, I agree.

  231. dogface January 15th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    Offer 7 years at 20 million AAV and an opt-out after 2 years

    =========================

    $20M AAV probably won’t get it done.

  232. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    - Bret -
    So your gonna ADD $20 Mill to the Yankee Payroll for at Least the next 2 seasons??? NOT gonna happen.

  233. yanks61 January 15th, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    Hi Donny.

    Yeah, look, of course trading for ANY pitcher is a bigger gamble than trading for a position player. I think back on Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas and the Lou Brock/Ernie Broglio deal. And those pitchers were both good experienced hurlers when they were dealt.

    The Yanks thought this deal had to be done. Are we going to hear ALL the reasons they thought it had to be done? Probably not, because unlike the Red’s GM, who ragged on Jiminez after dealing him last year, it’s generally not the done thing – for good reason.

    I loved the thought of Jesus hitting in this lineup. But there had to be very good reasons why he was dealt. And, again, let’s be real here, these trades aren’t done rashly by Cash dealing in a panic, they’re undoubtedly discussed at length with scouts, coaches, managers and guys like Gene Michael. Does anybody really believe they’re not?

    Pat alluded before to the O’Neill and Brosius trades. I also remember the Doc Medich for Randolph trade. I loved Doc and thought Kelly was the second coming of Bobby Murcer. Neither was easy for me to accept. But like then, I’m going to go with guys in the FO. Sure they could be wrong. They could also be right. But whatever side of the issue you’re on, lets all agree that we’re going to give this kid all the support we can. Jesus is gone. Lots of us have had a good cry. Now let’s turn the page and get behind Pineda.

    I think, like a lot others, there’s also another shoe dropping between now and ST. Maybe even more than one. Whatever the case, I prefer to look on the positive side and root now for Pineda. He’s now OUR guy and he looks like very good one. Let’s give him a chance.

  234. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    dogface January 15th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    Offer 7 years at 20 million AAV and an opt-out after 2 years

    =========================

    $20M AAV probably won’t get it done.

    ***********

    How much higher would the Nats go and what if the Nats are his only other option? If Texas signs Darvish they will not be able to offer much more than 20 million either.

  235. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    - Bret -
    So your gonna ADD $20 Mill to the Yankee Payroll for at Least the next 2 seasons??? NOT gonna happen.

    *******

    2012. 2013.

    The big concern seems to be 2014.

  236. blake January 15th, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    Offer 1/25 with a player option for 2013 for the same money. The Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs, Nats, Rangers……al coukd potentially be interested next year….you never know.

  237. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    - yanks61 -
    I’m No Cashman guy, but considering the risk vs reward here, I like the gamble. And make No mistake, it is a gamble. I also give Cashman some credit for showing some stones, especially After comparing Pujols’s bat to Montero’s barely a month ago.

  238. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    If Fielder is foolish enough to risk a two year contract, at risk for injury, without any guarantees of added years, then he should sign with the Rangers, where he’ll rake in that stadium, play 1st, be in the playoffs, and if unscathed after two years, be worth more to other teams as a 1st baseman, not a DH.

  239. mick January 15th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    I also give Cashman some credit for showing some stones, especially After comparing Pujols’s bat to Montero’s barely a month ago.
    ===========================
    Why do you think he did that?

  240. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    Blake,

    Yanks would have to offer a full 7 year deal so as to give Prince the option to play out the contract. Otherwise, they risk insulting him. An opt out after 2 year serves the same purpose but gives him some well-deserved security. The Yankees can price the first two years at a 20 million base with performance incentives. Prince knows he can rake in YS and wants to be a Yankee and is friends with CC. He can get his Pujols deal in 2 years and the Yankees avoid another long-term big-money contract that would clog up DH for an eternity. But you have to offer him an opportunity to play out 7 years. You’re betting he will rake in YS and opt out. You have a 2 year cushion of financial planning to prepare for the event that he plays out the contract.

  241. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    - Bret -
    I do Not see the Yanks adding $20 Mill to the current payroll. They just tacked on roughly $10 Mill with Kuroda.

  242. blake January 15th, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    The Rangers may not can pay that high AAV on a short deal if they sign Darvish…..Prince and CC are buddies as well so if he does a pillow deal then maybe NY would be appealing…..YS fits him just as well as Arlington does.

  243. blake January 15th, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    Hal would have to approve it….and I don’t think the Yankees would guarantee anything past 2013….they are worried to death about that soft cap coming into play apparently.

  244. DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    The Yanks and Fielder just boils down to $$$$. The Kuroda deal is gonna be it on double figure free agent signings. You guys are talking like George is still around.

  245. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    DONNYBROOK January 15th, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    - Bret -
    I do Not see the Yanks adding $20 Mill to the current payroll. They just tacked on roughly $10 Mill with Kuroda.

    *******

    There are several ways to drop that 10 million. Swisher (10) alone can be moved and the Yankees can trade pitching depth for a young, cheap OF like Dominic Brown (just an example). If you don’t like that plan…what about moving Gardner (3) + Hughes (3)? What about moving R. Soriano (13) and eating 3 million of his deal?

    Yanks have lots of movable parts.

  246. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
    The Rangers may not can pay that high AAV on a short deal if they sign Darvish…..Prince and CC are buddies as well so if he does a pillow deal then maybe NY would be appealing

    ******

    Perhaps – but I am done using CC/buddies to lure anyone here – especially after how we heard Lee would come b/c his buddy CC was here to vouch for how great it is. . . .

  247. blake January 15th, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    “The Yanks and Fielder just boils down to $$$$. The Kuroda deal is gonna be it on double figure free agent signings. You guys are talking like George is still around.”

    yea I don’t know if they will do it….probably won’t….just saying they should….bats like Prince’s don’t hit the market often and now they have an opening for him because they traded their own young bat.

  248. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    Instead of talking about the risk in dealing Montero, Cashman should have been talking about why he traded for Pineda and Campos…..he talks a lot more than he used to and frankly he was better off NOT talking

  249. Yogi Mantle January 15th, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    This year the Angels transformed themselves for the fans. They didn’t do it by adding CJ Wilson, they did it by adding Pujols. They also increased their franchise value by a large margin.

    Despite the over the top love and need for pitching, it is the everyday player who can hit for average and power that excites the fans.

    You look at the players who played the game, Olney had put up top WAR years in a post, how many of those who have high WAR years are pitchers?

    This trade just makes me sick. Montero might not succeed, nothing in life is guaranteed, but in seeing the hitting ability of Montero, that is the type of player that puts people in the seats and excites them.

    No hitters or perfect games are great, but watching a majestic HR hit excites a lot more than a low scoring game till the last couple of innings.

    Seeing the way the game is going right now, pitching is the dominate force. Having a batter who is able to overcome the increased pitching has an even higher value.

    Even Ruth, who was a very good pitcher didn’t make his real mark on the game till he became the hitter. Is Ruth even thought much of as a pitcher, or is it his batting that transformed the game and transformed two teams for generations?

    So what if Montero is only average defensively? We had that with Posada behind the plate, and somehow I think he did pretty good overall in his body of work. So what if Montero would need time to work into the role of catcher, or backup catcher, while getting at bats in as DH.

    When you look at the history of the game, it is rare that you have pitchers who are viewed in the same realm as the batters are.

    When you think of the top baseball players, pitchers are rarely, if ever, considered in the very top.

    Mantle WAS baseball. Ruth as a batter, not as a pitcher, was baseball. While Montero will probably not ever reach anything like those levels, I would doubt that Pineda will be remembered far more than Montero will be if each reaches their potential.

    When this trade is also viewed with the signing of Kuroda, it makes even less sense for the Yankees to have done this. Is Noesi that much worse than Pineda? The minor leaguer doesn’t even come into play with this, as it is far too long till he may produce anything for this club.

    This year’s world series wasn’t about pitching. This year’s early exit for the Yankees wasn’t as much about pitching as it was hitting, or lack thereof, by the Yankees in critical times.

    Even if the Yankees do something crazy like signing Fielder for a one or two year deal, which would be fun to watch, it still is short term and then what when the offense needs will still be there and few, if any options from the farm to fill that need.

    I just cannot see the justification given the addition of Kuroda for this trade. Why bother adding Kuroda once this deal went through?

    Time will tell if this was the right move, but it just feels wrong on far too many levels to me. I had a lot of excitement for the season prior to this move, now, not so much. I’ll still watch games, but this trade has killed some of the excitement I had to watch how a young batter would do over a full season, and seeing if we might watch Bronx Bomber legend being born. A pitcher just doesn’t bring the excitement and anticipation that a big bat does. Scoring runs wins games. Seeing big hits puts butts in the seats. Seeing a two pitch pitcher just doesn’t cut it for me.

  250. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    blake – You can’t use one offseason to make a bold claim like “impact bats will never hit the market”. THis is nonsense, we are just on a low period because a lot of young talent like Longo signed cupcake deals for their clubs a few years ago. Agent will not allow their clients to do this anymore, as FA is the mecca of talent going forward (with IFA and draft overpaying out the window).

  251. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    Or they could trade Swisher alone for Dominic Brown+ and save 10 million. They can trade Swisher alone for Shin Soo Choo and save millions.

    They can trade R. Soriano alone in a salary dump and shed 10 million of his 13 million.

    Regardless, Prince makes them a WS favorite and you can’t ignore his potential impact in the playoffs. He’d be the most dangerous hitter in the lineup – hands down.

  252. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    No hitters or perfect games are great, but watching a majestic HR hit excites a lot more than a low scoring game till the last couple of innings.

    I completely disagree. You have problems with your enjoyment of the game, that’s one thing… but don’t assume everyone is in it for the bombs.

    Stop disregarding Campos, he is a large part of this deal.

  253. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 12:45 pm

    I see Pat M hasn’t changed – with that same old schtick about how I hate Phil and how if he succeeds this year it will ruin my year, lol.

  254. blake January 15th, 2012 at 12:45 pm

    For arguments sake…..lets say that Prince really doesn’t want to play in Washington and the number they are offering isn’t big enough to overcome that…..and lets say the Rangers won’t go there either after Darvish.

    If you’re Prince (and the Yankees would offer it)….would you gamble on yourself and go to Yankee stadium for a season and about 25 million dollars….try to win a championship….market yourself in the largest market……and then try again next year…..or sign a deal that you’re not totally happy with with Washington?

    I’m not saying it’ll happen….but Boras has a history of pushing stuff like this if the number he wants isn’t out there that year.

  255. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 12:45 pm

    Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
    Instead of talking about the risk in dealing Montero, Cashman should have been talking about why he traded for Pineda and Campos…..he talks a lot more than he used to and frankly he was better off NOT talking

    ******

    He already did – he said it was a risk dealing Montero – plus this happened on Friday night – the news cycle will have more quotes when things reopen later this week after the 3 day holiday and football quiets down for the week. . . .

  256. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    G. Love January 15th, 2012 at 12:09 pm
    It’s a bit comical that Pineda is getting ripped for being a 2 pitch pitcher in here when Hughes was defended voraciously for being a 2 pitch pitcher in here when people would criticize his lack of arsenal. I recall a lot of “he only needs 2 pitches if he has fastball command” defenses of Hughes in here ad nauseum over the years.
    ///

    I’m not sure Pineda is “getting ripped.”

    The whole rationale for dealing Montero (never bought into it, but it’s been out there forever) is you part with him for a true No. 1, and in more temporal terms, someone to twin with CC to get us through before our high-end guys blossom or a FA thoroughbred falls into our lap.

    Well, Pineda is not that guy in 2012, which was a “must” from the gallery. They signed Kuroda, who they grabbed for depth, to be the “No. 2″ and to shield Pineda from having to deliver quickly.

    It’s not that Pineda may not ultimately justify the “ace” projection; it’s that he’s a guy who isn’t at that destination yet, and in light of that fact, relative to the conditional terms for giving up a supreme and lineup resurrecting young bat, the deal does not make sense.

    In that all-defining context we’ve heard forever from fans and the Yankees, this deal was senseless, and reckless, and in part, driven by a disproportionate worship of pitching, which the organization already has, and an apparent disdain for less-than-stellar catcher defense.

    And if the organizational pitching prospects are “a year away”, and Pineda is “a year away”, or rather, if Pineda is not appreciably further than those two in AAA (who both have less innings, but complete and plus arsenals), then why was Montero sacrificed?

    The rhetoric that more established pitching would be best disposed to help eke out one more championship with DJ, Alex and Mo still a step or two out of the shade is actually hugely contradicted by this trade: their chances just got much, much worse for 2012, because the bat that was taken for granted (say, in a spare-all and add-on Kuroda signing) is now gone.

    In this way, the acquisition of Kuroda, though it will improve the staff, lost a great deal of its relevance. It was a relatively low-cost move, especially in terms of time commitment, that would buy the young pitching more time and “save” having to part with the high-end guys, including and especially Montero.

    Well, the slam dunk hitting prospect, who was going to do far more to help the current 2012 cause than the raw young arm will, I expect, was in this deal, completely rendering those “conditions” irrelevant. Yea, in context, Michael Pineda may be two things: a really great prospect for the future rotation who is also really irrelevant to the current cause, given the cost.

    What’s funny is, all those pushing for pitching certainty at the expense of pitching prospects, in the name of “winning one more” before the door slams on No. 2, No. 13 and No. 42, are so busy celebrating the excision of Montero for “pitching” it hasn’t even dawned on them that their cause took a major hit.

    They’re not thinkers: they have decided “pitching wins.” It’s a mantra that precludes examination of what actually has gone down, here.

    But the Yankees have simply imported a high ceiling question mark…the kind of “prospect” they shake their little finger at and announce has the percentages working against him of ever realizing his greatness.

    Betances and Banuelos are a breath or two away from where Pineda enters, but the latter is a sure thing, a true No. 2 that giving up Montero was worth, while the Bs are likely victims of “the percentages” and worth trading for Matt Garza or Ubaldo Jimenez.

    Pineda somehow is worth Montero, even though the Yankees have his like in AAA, and more on the way (DePaula is supposed to be sprung soon, according to Newman).

    Worth Montero even though, unlike young pitching, we have nothing in the cupboard close to the majors that is even Montero’s shadow, much less Montero.

    So it’s not about “ripping” Pineda; it’s about acknowledging where he may be, relative to having been worth giving up a player like Jesus Montero.

  257. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    Plus the deal is not even official yet – players have not passed physicals yet – and we know that is no given when Yanks and Seattle are doing a deal.

  258. Mike from UNC January 15th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    Does this move remind anyone else of the Josh Beckett/Hanley Ramirez deal the Red Sox made a few years back? Granted, Beckett was a lot more established, but the deal ended up working out fairly well for both sides. I bet the Red Sox would have loved to have had Ramirez playing SS for them the last couple years, and I’m sure the Marlins wouldn’t have minded having Beckett on the mound. But I’d say both teams benefited from it. I think the same will hold true for this deal.

  259. yanks61 January 15th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    Donny, I agree about the gamble, as I said. But I’ll tell you, whatever else anyone wants to say about Cash, I have to say I have an increased respect for the guy right now. Once again, right or wrong, this took balls. I don’t think he wasn’t aware of how the fans (at least the dedicated fans) had latched on to Jesus. And still he pulled the trigger.

    No, I don’t think it was arrogance. I respectfully disagree with those who do. I don’t believe for a minute that Cashman made this up entirely on his own. I think he and the brain trust had very good reasons for doing the deal, but it took guts to finally go through with it.

    Sure, he could lose this gamble and maybe his job later on because of it. But he had the cajones to take that risk in spite of what I’m sure he realized would be a very emotional reaction from a large segment of the serious fanbase, and I respect him for that. JMHO.

  260. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    11. One scout said pitchers ate up Anthony Rizzo on the inner half of the plate when he played for the Padres.

    ********

    Stay classy Theo, Jed, and Josh. . . . .

  261. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    Blake,

    You absolutely would insult Prince if you didn’t offer him a full 7 year deal and an option to play out that contract regardless of a 2-year opt out.

  262. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    I would not have traded Montero coming into this off-season because I share serious concerns about the offense. Of course I didn’t think a young talent like Pineda was going to be available. Maybe Cashman believes that he has good young offensive talent (not Montero-like, of course) in the minors and that, in a few years, he can start working them into the lineup. Maybe he figures with a really good staff and promising young hitters, he’s ahead of the game. I think he is also stung by Joba and Hughes. As much as he talks about Banuelos and Betances, he has to know that they are know that there are know guarantees. I figure he thinks there is strength in numbers – and Pineda, unlike those 2 B’s, already has a very successful year under his belt.

    I have no doubts that Pineda will develop that third pitch and be just fine – and I trust Larry Rothschild.

  263. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    STOP trying to justify the trade and argue against it as if it was just Pineda for Montero. Seriously, It’s embarrassing for a guy that supposedly scouts minor league talent all day.

    Get your head out of your respective bums. Campos + Pineda > Montero + Noesi.

    Montero is not going to “tank the yankee offense” and more than losing Ruben Rivera did, or A-Jax, or any of these other bats that were traded away in the last 15 years.

  264. Yankee Trader January 15th, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    Daily predictions before I go, subject to change thru berating by my LoHud colleagues. :)

    Fielder to the Nats on a 6-7 year deal with an opt out after 3. Boras and Lerner are business buddies having signed Werth, Strasburg, Pudge and Harper.

    Cespedes, will get a ridiculously high offer from the Marlins, after foolishly playing winter ball, not being in shape, and will not be the second coming of Bo Jackson.

    Roy Oswalt will get a one year deal from the Cardinals.

    Have a good day all.

  265. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    blake, signing Prince means probably 50 home runs out of him. If they really want to “win now” blah-blah-blah, it’s automatic. Sign him.

  266. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    signing Prince means probably 50 home runs out of him

    This year?

    The prodigal son returns.

    Make it happen.

    2/$55m and be done with it. Worry about the lineup again in the soft cap year.

  267. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    anks61 January 15th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
    Donny, I agree about the gamble, as I said. But I’ll tell you, whatever else anyone wants to say about Cash, I have to say I have an increased respect for the guy right now. Once again, right or wrong, this took balls. I don’t think he wasn’t aware of how the fans (at least the dedicated fans)

    ********

    Dedicated fans would know that the game is filled with prospects who do not come through – that the Yankees hype a good percentage of their prospects – that is notoriously hard to break through with the Yankees as a prospect (luck AND talent need to come together at the right time for an opportunity) – and that we still do not know what there is in Montero. We do not know – and to react as if we traded away someone who HAS put up the numbers at the mlb level IS the problem here. Dedicated fans do not cancel their season tickets.

  268. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    ’61,

    You made a reference about Trader Frank Lane trading the ’59 home run champ, young Rocky Colavito for the ’59 champ, aging Harvey Kuenn. This came a year after trading a young slugging center fielder Roger Maris and another for Woodie Held and Vic Power.

    Held and Power, by the way were former Yankee farm hands. Maris was supposed to be traded to NYY, but, Indians owner wouldn’t trade with George Weiss, so they sent Maris to KC for a year and that’s how the Yanks got Maris.

  269. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    Dedicated fans do not cancel their season tickets.</i.

    Cancelling your season tickets over trading away Montero for something that could actually bring a world series to the table for the next 3 years is extremely childish and immature.

    Anyone claiming they did is probably also lying about it for effect Stoneburner, don't believe them.

  270. blake January 15th, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    ID,

    I didn’t say there will never be…..just that it’s going to be less common in the coming years because……1) offense is more at a premium 2) teams have more money due to new stadiums and revenue sharing.

    Baseball grossed more than the NFL last year for the first time on forever I heard on the radio the other day…..teams aren’t letting their good young players go anymore because they don’t have to

  271. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    Oh, I forgot! I’m supposed to jump up and down that we used Montero to replace Vizcaino with Campos, whom I’v never laid eyes on…

    Ian Hunter said it well:

    “And you’re caught half-way up
    You don’t want to go back
    So you keep going on
    Compromising the lack.”

    Can’t wait to watch Campos hit behind Cano, btw :D

  272. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Stoneburner, I know and I think he’s stupid for doing that. It just agitated some fans (most Yankee fans do not visit and post on boards, have not followed Montero and do not have an attachment to him)… Instead of talking about why the trade could bomb, which shows he’s incredibly defensive, why not talk about the positive aspects of the trade? We have yet to hear from Cashman why he loved Pineda so much – why not?

  273. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    Don’t waste your breath. He said Montero would be “lucky” to hit .270 out of the gate…

    Guess again…

  274. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    Cashman never said that Montero was only going to be dealt for an “he’s already an ace” type pitcher, but clearly he thinks Pineda will get there since he made the deal.

  275. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    teams aren’t letting their good young players go anymore because they don’t have to

    **********

    But we just saw two players leaves – one from a big market team (Reyes) and one from a lower mid market (Fielder). To say nothing of the game’s best hitter leaving a Musial type legacy behind in St. Louis (I know he does not fit your young category – but still – the best hitter in the game changed teams).

  276. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    blake – Pitching will always be the dearth in talent, and the most desired in the FA market. Simple matter of numbers, there are more elite hitters than elite pitchers… they can’t all be signed. IMO… Agents are not going to let any young hitters that can be talked out of it sign deals like Longoria did anymore, because the bats that DO make it to FA are going to absolutely rake in the cash.

    This year was Albert and Prince… next year is Ethier and Hamilton… David Wright and Kinsler are the next 2 elite bats coming out… there will always be someone for the Yankees to drop the checkbook on, so to speak.

    You know what doesn’t become available? Elite level pitching in the FA market… for 2 reasons. First, pitchers sign early deals because their careers are much more volitile than hitters. Second, elite pitchers mainly play at their highest levels before the age of 28, where hitters are just hitting their peak from 26-28. It’s not entirely worth the money to sign long term deals with guys like Wilson and Buehrle. You are always better off locking up with a young rotation and then paying for the bats.

  277. yanks61 January 15th, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    “We do not know – and to react as if we traded away someone who HAS put up the numbers at the mlb level IS the problem here. Dedicated fans do not cancel their season tickets.”

    Absolutely agree Stone!

    Yogi Mantle – I loved both those guys, by the way! – So, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Dizzy Dean, Bob Feller, Whitey Ford, Tom Seaver, Bob Gibson, and my God, Sandy friggin Koufax (the greatest pitcher I ever saw) weren’t exciting?? Yogi, I enjoy the long ball, I get that the chicks dig it too, but great pitching is a wonder to behold. As ID has said, everybody has a right to enjoy the game differently :)

  278. blake January 15th, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    Stone,
    Reyes due to the Mets financial crisis and Prince is a special case…..which is why the Yankees should sign him

  279. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    You can’t offer Fielder or any player performance bonuses. You can offer them bonuses for awards…not numbers based bonuses other than at bats, starts or innings.

  280. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 12:55 pm
    Stoneburner, I know and I think he’s stupid for doing that. It just agitated some fans (most Yankee fans do not visit and post on boards, have not followed Montero and do not have an attachment to him)… Instead of talking about why the trade could bomb, which shows he’s incredibly defensive, why not talk about the positive aspects of the trade? We have yet to hear from Cashman why he loved Pineda so much – why not?

    ********

    If in week’s time – after the trade is official and Pineda is a Yankees – b/c Cashman probably is not talking about a player who is still under another team’s control – than your post gains some strength. I do not blame someone not talking about the other player they are about to acquire but have NOT officially – especially with tampering and being cautious about physicals given the track record between these two teams.

  281. blake January 15th, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    Ethier and Hamilton are both older and injury prone and over the next 2-3 years I highly doubt either puts up the numbers that Prince will

  282. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
    Stone,
    Reyes due to the Mets financial crisis and Prince is a special case…..which is why the Yankees should sign him

    *******

    Oh I know – but you keep saying – who is out there – who is young and going to hit the market – and we keep saying Reyes and Prince this offseason – then Votto and Ellsbury in upcoming seasons probably – and I have brought it up time and time again – you can add to an offense with sneaky good deals like the Rangers did with Napoli and Beltre last offseason – I live in Dallas – those two additions were crazy good and they did not involve young + elite players.

  283. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    blake – you are too locked in to one season and the ages of those players. I can’t see any reason or proof that the FA batting market is “drying up” and one season will not be proof of a trend.

  284. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:05 pm
    blake – you are too locked in to one season and the ages of those players. I can’t see any reason or proof that the FA batting market is “drying up” and one season will not be proof of a trend.

    ******

    Totally agree – you said it much better than me. . . .

  285. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Andrew Marchand of ESPN New York was told by a source that if the Yankees do add a hitter, it will be at the “right price in a late deal.”

  286. exiledintampa January 15th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    It will be extremely unfair if folks don’t get behind Pineda just because they hate that he was traded for Montero. Pineda didn’t engineer the trade. People on here already using derogatory terms to describe him are out of there minds. I love the Yankees and will root for him to develop into the kind of pitcher they think they traded for.

  287. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    Stone, ok – got it.

  288. Nick in SF January 15th, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    “…he’s done a trade that shows he has some serious character defects as a human being…”

    You cannot make this stuff up. :shock:

  289. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 1:09 pm

    exiledintampa January 15th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
    It will be extremely unfair if folks don’t get behind Pineda just because they hate that he was traded for Montero. Pineda didn’t engineer the trade. People on here already using derogatory terms to describe him are out of there minds. I love the Yankees and will root for him to develop into the kind of pitcher they think they traded for.

    ********

    No argument there – put on the pinstripes – you get behind the kid.

  290. Tom in N.J. January 15th, 2012 at 1:09 pm

    Guy the Yankees should sign next offseason?

    Here’s one: Miguel Montero, 28 years old, good lefty hitter as a C, .820 OPS. Plus a 40% caught stealing percentage last year.

  291. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    Jose Iglesius has dropped off of Sickels Honor Role.

    Grade Change: Jose Iglesias
    by John Sickels on Jan 15, 2012 1:00 PM EST

    1 comment Email Print
    The final grades for the 2012 Baseball Prospect Book are locked down. I could tinker with these forever but Jeri will hit me in the head if I don’t turn the final list over to her.

    The main change today is moving Boston Red Sox shortstop prospect Jose Iglesias from a Grade B- down to a Grade C+. He doesn’t hit enough to justify the higher grade at this time.

  292. disco stu January 15th, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    “Hal would have to approve it….and I don’t think the Yankees would guarantee anything past 2013….they are worried to death about that soft cap coming into play apparently.”

    It that is true, then what would have happened if the Yankees DID have the Mariners agree to trade King Felix? What if one of the caveats of such a trade would have been to restructure the contract to give him more years/money to avoid him going to FA down the road? He would potentially been earning just as much as CC does before ever throwing a pitch in pinstripes.

    Would that not have blown any chance the Yankees have had of getting under the $189
    threshold by 2014 as signing someone like Prince Fielder would do?

    This is why I think too many people are taking what Joel Sherman wrote a month ago as the gospel.

    Its all been speculated and just because Sherman cited annoymous Yankee sources in his article doesnt confirm to me that it is a fact. No one is on record as saying this is what they are doing.

  293. blake January 15th, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm 12m

    Rangers meeting with Fielder @ the Four Seasons Hotel went extremely well & they can afford to sign both Darvish and Fielder if they choose
    JIM BOWDEN JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm 15m

    Yu Darvish & the Rangers appear to be close enough in negotiations now to get a deal done but it probably won’t get done until Tues deadline
    JIM BOWDEN JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm 17m

    Brian Cashman told me last night that Michael Pineda better improve the change-up & develop into a #1 starter or he will have made a mistake

    ugh

  294. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
    Andrew Marchand of ESPN New York was told by a source that if the Yankees do add a hitter, it will be at the “right price in a late deal.”

    *********

    Que the hundred of stories by the papers about ST pitching battles – Chad – you and the writers will be busy this February and March.

  295. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:12 pm

    blake – we’re not talking about prince fielder level bats coming to the FA market, players like Fielder don’t come along very often… forget about being able to sign someone like that… basing the FA market on him is silly. you and i both agree they should sign him.

    Anyone putting Montero on a Fielder-like pedestal needs to get their head checked. He has a long line of “future babe-ruthian” prospects to get past that have flamed out in 1 or 2 seasons because they couldn’t handle major league pitching. Let that happen before we start worrying about “what we lost”. The hype around here for 1/2 a player with no defensive position is incredible.

    I’ll take the stud rookie pitcher that has a better K rate than 98% of the league and a fastball at the upper end of the AVG velocity spectrum and waltz into the playoffs happy. I would rather possibly lock up an entire game of the playoffs (or two!) than score a few more runs here and there. Runs they may score anyway because the offense is already one of the best in the league.

    Taking the team from the #2 lineup in the league to the #1 lineup in the league is not going to have nearly the impact that these 2 moves have made with Pineda and Kuroda on the pitching staff. Yes, the pitching staff “performed” well last season with Garcia/Colon/Nova pitching way over their heads. Now it will actually have a chance of repeating that performance, with a significant possibility of improving it.

  296. blake January 15th, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    “blake – you are too locked in to one season and the ages of those players. I can’t see any reason or proof that the FA batting market is “drying up” and one season will not be proof of a trend.”

    just don’t see much close in the minors and not a lot of answers in the coming FA market or trade market…..something off the radar could prove me wrong…..we’ll see.

  297. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    I have no doubts that Pineda will develop that third pitch and be just fine – and I trust Larry Rothschild.
    ///

    Rothschild is a professional. But if memory serves me, you also “trusted” Dave Eiland, and exonerated him from any wrongdoing in the development of Joba/Hughes/Kennedy, right?

  298. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Looking at the Bowden tweets seems Boras is more inclined to use the Rangers against the Yankees. The Nats bluff probably won’t fly.

  299. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    JIM BOWDEN JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm 17m

    Brian Cashman told me last night that Michael Pineda better improve the change-up & develop into a #1 starter or he will have made a mistake

    *******

    If Bowden speaks the truth – Cashman is not doing the kid any favors. Welcome to NY Michael.

    (Bowden was always a weird character – w/ the Marge Schott days – something just weird – especially given that he is not a GM anymore – nothing about the tweet – but him and before Duquette was hired again by the Os – there was always just something odd about them – kind of like Steve Phillips)

  300. blake January 15th, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    if the Rangers sign both Fielder and Darvish then they’ll be really tough next year….probably means Hamilton will be gone after 2012 but for next year they’ll be very very tough especially if Darvish is for real.

  301. blake January 15th, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    Bowden is good on the radio….I like him…he’s very entertaining.

  302. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    exonerated him from any wrongdoing in the development of Joba/Hughes/Kennedy

    Hughes pulled a hammy and hasn’t been the same since.
    Joba clearly hurt humself as well, and we may never know when.
    Kennedy seems to have done well for himself and developed into a good pitcher.

    Eiland was doing fine, he didn’t injure those players. He didn’t call them up too early. Until he got drunk and punched Burnett in the face (pure speculation) things were going quite well under Eiland.

  303. yankfan January 15th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    how can people confidently say he will develop a 3rd pitch when right in front of our eyes we saw phil failed to do it, AJ failed to do it, etc

  304. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    Can’t remember who it was, but somebody here used Smoak and Heyward as reasons not to trust rankings of “projectable” hitters, as if Montero has much in common with those two… That just shows me that those people cannot differentiate between hitters in an experiential viewing way….That also says volumes on why it’s not coincidentally THOSE people who think getting rid of him is no sweat…What you can’t recognize, you can’t really mourn when it’s gone…

  305. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 1:15 pm
    Bowden is good on the radio….I like him…he’s very entertaining.

    *******

    Bowden had the scoop on Pujols and the Angels days before it happened – I remember his article – he even talked to Mike Soscia about it and got a tacit “yes”

  306. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    That being said – fact he does not have a GM job is weird – just weird. . . .

  307. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    I’m sure the Rangers can try to sign both Darvish and Fielder but they’re not going to be able to offer much more than 20 million AAV for Prince after Darvish.

    This is going to come down to Yankees vs. Rangers.

    I’d stick to 20 and 7 with an opt out after 2 years before the 2014 rule kicks in.

    Rangers can’t go much higher than that.

    Boras is smart to pit the Yankees against the Rangers – gotta hand it to him. The difference between having him and not having him is double.

  308. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    JAlfred, you’re not interested in having a conversation, just in starting an argument, so you can think what you will – it doesn’t bother me.

  309. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    Anyone trying to justify this trade as Pineda vs Montero only shows how ignorant and delusional some people are proud to be.

    I’ll trust the Yankee’s opinions of player development over anyone on this board. The Yankees continue to make moves year in and year out that strangely coincide with the things I believe and say so… I’ll keep believing myself as well.

  310. Nick in SF January 15th, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    “Until he got drunk and punched Burnett in the face…”

    So your theory is that Eiland was possessed by the collective will of LoHud?

    I think you may be on to something.

  311. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    yankfan January 15th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    how can people confidently say he will develop a 3rd pitch when right in front of our eyes we saw phil failed to do it, AJ failed to do it, etc

    **********

    You’re comparing Pineda’s 2 pitches to Hughes’ and your comparing Pineda’s confidence to use a changeup to AJ’s?

  312. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Seriously, that’s what Cashman told Bowden?

  313. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    Nick in SF – Just something I had heard from my buddy that works at the MLB network… supposedly Eiland had some drinking problems and that was the cause of his absence from the team.

    Also, yes. Collective will :)

  314. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    yankfan, the confidence that a pitcher they’ve barely seen will fulfill all promise and answer all questions affirmatively is inversely proportional to their lack of confidence that ANY player we draft, no matter how highly regarded, will ever turn out well, because they are armed with “realism.”

  315. yanks61 January 15th, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    GB – And I LOVED that Maris trade from the very beginning. I can still recall, like it was yesterday, the opening game of the 60 season. It was up in Boston, would you believe, a bright, chilly sunny day. And Roger Maris smoked the ball all over the lot in a Yankee romp. I was sure the Yanks had found another great. As you keep stressing, too, he wasn’t just a power bat; the guy could flat out run, field and throw – amongst the best! KC was, of course, just a Yankee farm!

    Man, the guys the Yanks had in their system in the early 50′s and proceeded to trade away – Lew Burdette I believe went for Johnny Sain (who did help the Yanks win some pennants as a reliever and spot starter) and Jackie Jensen was another guy. I believe they may have sent him to Washington, then subsequently got traded to the Bosox. If I’m not mistaken, I think he was one of those guys who was afraid to fly. Don’t know if you heard anything about that or if it played any part in his getting dealt (they traveled mostly by train in those days.)

    You could have made up a very good team with the guys the Yanks traded in that 10 year or so period.

  316. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:22 pm

    I don’t think Eiland was any good now – at the time I did. In any case, I place the “blame” for Joba and Phil squarely on their shoulders, not on the Yankees, not on anyone elses. I feel the same way about any athletes – how they turn out is on them and their ability.

  317. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    When you believe things are a certain way, and the team you root for constantly does things contrary to your opinions and beliefs… It’s time to get your opinions checked. Or you could just go through life believing you “know better than everyone”. See how that works out for you.

  318. muwarriorsfan January 15th, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    testing

  319. m1kew January 15th, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    For those worried about Pineda’s “two pitch” limitation please read http://www.draysbay.com/2012/1.....#storyjump for an obiased study of what he threw last year.

  320. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:19 pm
    JAlfred, you’re not interested in having a conversation, just in starting an argument, so you can think what you will – it doesn’t bother me.
    ///

    I am interested in your answer to my question………….
    ???

  321. m1kew January 15th, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    sorry – unbiased, not obiased

  322. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    Yankeefem posted something about Felix having worked with Pineda towards the end of 2011 on his change to good effect, I believe.

  323. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    Prufrock – Curious, how many times have you interviewed for a scouting or player development position for a major league ball club?

  324. m January 15th, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    Good to see stuckey.

    The Yankees want to win, not fill seats. Pretty sure pleasing the fans was not part of the analysis of whether or not to pull the trigger.

  325. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:22 pm
    I don’t think Eiland was any good now – at the time I did. In any case, I place the “blame” for Joba and Phil squarely on their shoulders, not on the Yankees, not on anyone elses. I feel the same way about any athletes – how they turn out is on them and their ability.
    ///

    Oh, OK. Thanks for the answer. Good to know that despite not being any good, Eiland had no role in not developing Joba and Phil.

    But what then changed your mind about Eiland, if I may ask? If there was no “evidence” in how the young pitchers turned out to this point, under his watch?

  326. muwarriorsfan January 15th, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    I’m in Milwaukee and the good thing about Fielder is that many of his HR’s either tied the game or put the Brewers ahead in the late innings. He won’t wilt under the pressure and look Nick Swisher foolish. He would have to cut out the “beast mode” nonsense and shave the beard off, though.

  327. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    JAlfred, the way you asked the question sounded antagonistic…….but since you do seem to want to know, yes, I didn’t feel Eiland was to blame. I don’t think he helped at ALL now, but I certainly don’t blame him because Phil couldn’t develop a 2nd or 3rd pitch or because he gave up HRs………..or because Joba got stubborn. No PC can execute for their pitchers – so in the end it’s all up to the players. Pineda has far better stuff than Phil and he’s in the hands of a very good pitching coach, so yes, I think Rothschild will actively help him.

  328. Nick in SF January 15th, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    stuckey was here??? Another guy who owes me $25. :mad:

  329. m January 15th, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    And some people are so stuck on the comps. Let’s give Pineda a chance to show us who he is instead if labeling him an Armstrong, AJ, or Hughes.

  330. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    ’61,

    The deal for Maris was probably 2nd in Yankee history behind only to Ruth, as far as trade/sales. Not inclued are FA deals. Had it not been for the hand injury in ’65, he probably ends up in the HOF. he could still hit and play a great right field…just no power left. A marvelous all around player.

  331. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    Now you’re being sarcastic with your “good to know” comment. If you don’t mind, I will beg out of this discussion. You have my answer – you don’t have to like it. If you want to act like Mick, that’s your business, but I don’t have to respond. I hope you have a nice day. By the way, what exactly is YOUR point – that you blame the Yankees for Joba and Phil? Given your anger at the organization, I think it’s safe to say that you’re not being objective.

  332. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    Banuelos, Betances, Campos… does the next great yankee pitching prospect start with a C or a D… guesses?

  333. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    Betsy, fair enough. But isn’t it possible that Eiland was off on the wrong scent on Joba? Like, isn’t it possible that something like forcing a pause in his delivery helped him lose velocity? I mean, I’m just asking if it’s possible, not if it’s a fact. What do you think? Possible that a mechanical suggestion that as implemented hurt rather than helped? Again, just a suggestion of possibility, not even probability.

  334. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    Betsy, I am just trying to understand where you stand. And if I’m angry, there are posters like you whose pragmatism can throw cold water on my hysteria, and for that I am grateful :D.

  335. m January 15th, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    Joba couldn’t repeat his delivery and Hughes battled injuries. Not all of it was Eiland.

  336. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    Who Mick?

    Mantle?

    Jagger?

    Sorry, you lost me, there.

  337. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    Micky Shuler?

    Now, in retrospect, those were the good ‘ole days, from a Jet perspective :D

  338. Bo knows January 15th, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    Point A Rod has at best two years at 3B, then needs to DH.

    -. The going thinking in baseball is three top stud pitchers for the playoffs

    -. The two Bs fell back last year re control. If they didn’t, Montero is still here.

    -. Kuroda was brought in to ease the pressure on Pineda. I approve wholeheartedly.

    -. Butler/1BDH are not that difficult to find. Maybe not Montero but fairly close. The market is flush with them.

  339. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    m, what percentage would you give it? That might have been Eiland?

  340. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    Jensen was competing with Mantle as a center fielder along with Bob Cerv. yeah, he was afraid of planes so he retired for a year, tried it a year later and then retired for good. One of Weiss’ bad trades, though. They got very little for him. Trades for little bobby shantz, trading Ralph Terry to KC (just to get him some experience in the big leagues and then getting him back) getting Clete Boyer from KC, Eddie Lopat, Johnny Mize on waivers. The farm he put together and traded off the excess for players like Maris, Hector Lopez and others. He was a bigot and a total ass, but, he knew talent.

  341. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    Betsy, it’s also useful to learn that a bad pitching coach can’t hurt, but a good one can only help. Thanks for that :D.

  342. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    No doubt in my mind that the Yankees are stockpiling young arms for a long-term solution to the OF corners either for this season or next.

    The new Core of this team is up the middle, Cano, complemented by Granderson, Martin and Nunez. This team is getting younger in a hurry and most don’t even recognize that fact.

    With veterans anchoring the rotation, and the infield corners, only the OF corners need early attention.

  343. dogface January 15th, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    He would have to cut out the “beast mode” nonsense and shave the beard off, though.

    ========================

    Wouldn’t have to do either in Texas.

  344. jacksquat January 15th, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    I think the Nats are going to get Fielder.

    Yanks pretty much no chance.

  345. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    I explained to you where I stood. Why don’t you tell me why you think Phil and Joba’s lack of development are on Eiland? As I’ve stated, my general philosophy is not to blame the coaches. Players have to live or die on their ability. Maybe we overrated one or both of these kids. Young pitchers sometimes don’t develop the way we hoped. Maybe they were a case of being mature in the minors while other kids were still growing – and that’s why they dominated. Both coming to camp overweight ? Hardly something you want to see. Phil was drafted out of HS – a risk. Ok, so he hasn’t turned out – that’s why the Yankees are in the baseball business instead of the fortune telling business.

  346. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    It all boils down to…

    What do you value more? The difference between a ~.750 and ~.900 OPS batter, or the difference between a ~5 ERA pitcher and a ~3.7 ERA pitcher?

    Which do you want under control for the long term? 1/9 of your lineup or 1/5 of the starting staff?

    What if the Yankee’s go sign Soler/Cepedes? Does losing Montero matter anymore?

  347. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    The two Bs fell back last year re control. If they didn’t, Montero is still here.
    ///

    Wow, Bo. So the Yankees expected 20 year old Manny and Betances, a year removed from ligament replacement surgery, to secure Montero’s place in Yankee lore.

    Tough bosses!

  348. m January 15th, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    Insert “personality clash” and “stubborn pitcher” into a % blame spreadsheet and see what comes out.

  349. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    More like… the Yankee bosses don’t hold 20 year old players like any of those you mentioned in “Yankee lore”.

  350. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    between a ~.750 and ~.900
    ////

    LMAOROFFL

  351. jacksquat January 15th, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    I generally like Cashman, but that statement about Pineda, while maybe true, was dumb to make in public. I hope Pineda doesn’t hear about it. A 23 year old going to the Yankees doesn’t need that additional pressure.

  352. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    What’s so funny? Are you telling me Montero is going to come in and Pujols the league oer 1 OPS his whole career?

    I’ll take that bet right now, if you’re willing.

  353. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    We’ll never know, now :D

  354. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    Jack, I really hope Bowden was kidding.

  355. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    Why won’t we know? Is montero going to suddenly stop playing baseball? I’ll give you his road splits instead.

  356. luis January 15th, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    Hi guys,

    Randy I, very good post my feelings exactly.

    JAP, I was really hoping to see Montero in pinstripes. your point about trading him for a number one pitcher is right on the money, we just didnt get that on this trade, it may become true in the future, but right now is not. It is a very huge risk, especially if you take in to account that our offense is getting old and you have a pitching rich farm system. Also your point about Joba not being developed properly is right on the money.

    Blake,

    They might give the Bs the chance to develope properly, but I am scared by the thought of the offense struggling, and then pulling the trigger on a trade for a bat.

    The secret of the success of the franchise was developing the core from within, complemented with good FA signings, you don’t trade your future core.

  357. Teary . Francona January 15th, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    I like the trade and signing. I dont like Cashman constantly opening his mouth. He’s arrogant.

  358. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    m January 15th, 2012 at 1:43 pm
    Insert “personality clash” and “stubborn pitcher” into a % blame spreadsheet and see what comes out.
    ///

    ah, straight from the tabloid writer emergency fund for when no one’s singin’.

  359. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
    JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm 12m

    Rangers meeting with Fielder @ the Four Seasons Hotel went extremely well & they can afford to sign both Darvish and Fielder if they choose
    JIM BOWDEN JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm 15m

    Yu Darvish & the Rangers appear to be close enough in negotiations now to get a deal done but it probably won’t get done until Tues deadline
    JIM BOWDEN JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm 17m

    Brian Cashman told me last night that Michael Pineda better improve the change-up & develop into a #1 starter or he will have made a mistake

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    I seriously doubt that Cashman told that to anyone and certainly not to an idiot like Bowden knowing it would go out over the airwaves.

  360. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    Eiland was the worst Yankee “pitching coach” since Art Fowler.

  361. CB January 15th, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    “JIM BOWDEN JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm 17m

    Brian Cashman told me last night that Michael Pineda better improve the change-up & develop into a #1 starter or he will have made a mistake”

    You look at all of Cashman’s and the Yankees comments about the risk involved and the contingencies needed to make this deal work for the Yankees – and they are pretty much spot on and being honest.

    That’s how good Montero’s bat is. They aren’t trying to sugar coat this.

    People downplaying Montero as “only a DH” etc. should consider that. The yankees themselves are telling us that they are the ones absorbing most of the risk in the deal. That’s their assessment. And it’s accurate and honest.

    Perhaps they shouldn’t be saying these things as they aren’t helping Pineda. But the acceleration of expectations was always part of the risk anyway with this deal. Pineda is going to have to learn to live with it unfortunately. It won’t be easy.

    Despite all of this – they still made the deal.

    Either that tells you about how much they value Pineda specifically or how much in general they believe in the old adage “pitching wins.”

    It’s probably a combination of both I suppose. Let’s hope it’s much more about the specifics of the player.

    I’ve seen Pineda’s change up. It’s really not very good at all.

    I don’t think that’s a problem per se – because I don’t expect young pitchers to be finished products. It’s an evolution – often a painful one. Given how young he is – that third pitch could snap into place quickly. By spring training it might be substantially improved.

    But what the issue of that third pitch does do is increase the risk in the deal – which was substantial to begin with. It’s just another unknown.

    It is interesting to see how the yankees comments are focused on reasons which when looked at objectively are largely factors for not making this trade.

  362. blake January 15th, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    Nationals PR @NationalsPR
    Following

    #Nationals agree to terms w/ LHP Gio Gonzalez on contract extension thru 2016, w/ options for 2017 & ’18, thus avoiding salary arbitration.

  363. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    luis!!!!!!!!!!

    My Yankee pennant’s at half mast, my friend.

    You’re a breath of fresh air, though. Stick around! Maybe you should come out here when Seattle’s in town ;). We can watch and weep together :(

  364. dogface January 15th, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    Nats lock up G. Gonzalez for 5 years with team options for 2017 and 2018.

  365. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    CB – One would only expect them to feel buyers remorse until you get a few years of production from these players out in the open. I am banking on the side of them highly valuing and liking what they see in Pineda/Campos.

    I still think Montero is easier to replace, regardless of if this works out in their favor. There are simply more hitters than starting pitchers in baseball.

  366. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    Maybe we overrated one or both of these kids. Young pitchers sometimes don’t develop the way we hoped. Maybe they were a case of being mature in the minors while other kids were still growing – and that’s why they dominated.
    ///

    Oh, I didn’t realize the books were closed on them. Thanks.

  367. Teary . Francona January 15th, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    This.

    On top of that, Montero is a hitter without a position. His only value was as a catcher, especially considering the Yankees have aging players that will be needing the DH spot in years to come, and Teixeira locked into 1B for years.

  368. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    CB, we understand the risks – and Cash does too. He made the trade and so I think clearly he believes in Pineda’s potential. I remember him saying that Stick told him (after Cash had gotten burned in a trade) that if he loses his boldness, he’s in the wrong business. Well he’s gutsy as a burglar. I appreciate that they understand how good Montero is, but to me this is more about Cashman opening his mouth when he shouldn’t. Regardless of how poorly Soriano has turned out, I still hate it that Brian made public that he didn’t want him – that’s not how you welcome a new player. Pineda will have to deal with NY, but that’s a natural thing. I expect the GM to usher in his young pitcher and to try and make a smooth transition, not to say really stupid things (even if the Bowden comment isn’t true, it is true that Cashman talked about the risk) that only end up throwing oil on the water.

  369. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    As soon as Romine came up to catch last year I knew they were trying to avoid exposing Montero’s defense.

    You have to give up something to get something. Let’s spend our time and efforts hoping they got something, rather than worrying about spilled milk.

  370. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    LOL I knew I was wrong to even respond to you. Oh well – my mistake – lesson learned.

  371. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    We won’t know how he would have fit into Yankee lore.

    What we do know is he will not put up a .750 OPS. Well, many of us know it, I might say.

  372. blake January 15th, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    I care more about the Bowden comment that the Rangers could fit both Fielder and Darvish into their budget than the one about Pineda….we already knew that he needed to be a #1 or the deal was probably a bad one.

    If the Rangers add Prince then that lineup will be impossible to navigate through…and if Darvish is the real deal their rotation and bullpen will be solid as well…. the Rangers are probably the biggest threat to keep the Yankees out of the WS anyway….and that would just make it more significant…..

  373. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    Eiland was doing fine, he didn’t injure those players
    —————————-

    No he wasn’t.

  374. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    Teary . Francona January 15th, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    This.

    On top of that, Montero is a hitter without a position. His only value was as a catcher, especially considering the Yankees have aging players that will be needing the DH spot in years to come, and Teixeira locked into 1B for years.

    —————–’

    Bad job by the FO then

  375. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    Perhaps they shouldn’t be saying these things as they aren’t helping Pineda. But the acceleration of expectations was always part of the risk anyway with this deal. Pineda is going to have to learn to live with it unfortunately. It won’t be easy.

    ////

    Why would Cover My Ass Cash decelerate expectations on a raw young 22-year old pitcher before he steps into the Roman Coliseum? What would that serve?

  376. Nick in SF January 15th, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    C R, here’s a math problem for you.

    Bret the Hitman has owed me $25 for over a year.

    stuckey has owed me $25 since early April.

    You said you were going to send me $25 to pay off Bret the Hitman’s debt, but he said he would pay his own debt.

    Should I feel like I’m out $50 or $75?

  377. luis January 15th, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    JAP,

    Hi my friend!!, lol! Probably is Pineda pitching and Montero hits two opposite field homers, then I am going to cry!!.I am going in May, i don’t have the exact dates yet but I’ll let you know in advance.

  378. exiledintampa January 15th, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Chad, I wish you would stop using Montero’s picture and start using Kuroda/Pineda/Campos. And, why do I get the feeling this is far from the final thoughts on the subject?

  379. blake January 15th, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Hopefully these moves mean that Betances and Banuelos will get most if not all of 2012 at AAA so that they can build their innings and get ready for the show……and hopefully it means that the Yankees have learned that you can’t let a kid (Joba) throw 70 innings in the minors and then expect them to be a good big league starter immediately.

  380. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Blake,

    Sure the Rangers can afford to make an offer for Prince after they sign Darvish but that doesn’t mean they can meet his asking price or price out the Yankees.

  381. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    Bad job by the FO then

    Disagree. Your DH spot should be a fluid role, dynamically filled with players for rest days and what not. You would naturally be playing guys on their positive splits and you can still end up with near elite level production from the position.

  382. muwarriorsfan January 15th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    If Texas adds both Fielder and Darvish, they are far, far superior to a Yankee team filled with declining/aging players like Jeter, Tex and Arod.

  383. exiledintampa January 15th, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    http://sports.gather.com/viewA.....4981025602

    Billie Butler to Yanks rumor

  384. blake January 15th, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    Bret,

    if the Rangers offer close to the number Boras is looking for I think that’s where Prince will go….chance to win every year and a ballpark that will inflate his numbers like crazy. It’s a good fit…..if they really want him then that probably takes the Yanks out of play unless they are willing to go longterm and match or beat Texas’s offer.

    Only way I can see Fielder going to the Yanks is if Texas is out on him and Prince just doesn’t want to go to Washington and decides to do a Boras special Pillow contract with the Yankees.

  385. jacksquat January 15th, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    Yes, I asked Chad yesterday for no more Montero pics. It’s cruel. :(

  386. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    Blake, I’m not quaking in my boots about the Rangers. I don’t know why people think they aren’t better already since they’ve gotten to the WS twice in a row. They are the team to beat in the AL until they prove their not, but no team is unbeatable.

    Way to place the burden squarely on a 22 year old’s head, Cashman – as if he’s already not in a difficult position.

  387. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    The two Bs fell back last year re control. If they didn’t, Montero is still here.

    ——————————–

    If the Yankees develop Hughes and Joba properly then Montero is still here

  388. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 2:02 pm
    Blake,

    Sure the Rangers can afford to make an offer for Prince after they sign Darvish but that doesn’t mean they can meet his asking price or price out the Yankees.

    *******

    Rangers have a new tv contract – i would not underestimate their chances of outbidding the Yankees here – especially w/ the Yanks having 2014 in mind budget wise.

  389. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    It is interesting to see how the yankees comments are focused on reasons which when looked at objectively are largely factors for not making this trade.
    ///

    Isn’t it?

  390. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    The Pineda trade is not official until the physicals. Cashman is talking about a Mariner when he discusses “risk”. He really should want Seattle to feel good about the deal in the aftermath.

  391. blake January 15th, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    Billy Butler would be awesome….I think they’d ask a lot for him though.

  392. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:06 pm
    The two Bs fell back last year re control. If they didn’t, Montero is still here.

    ——————————–

    If the Yankees develop Hughes and Joba properly then Montero is still here
    ///

    Best, you are right.

    How many bags of Tates have you gone through since the news broke?

  393. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Or, if Joba and Phil had been as good as people hoped, Montero might still be here. That’s the way it is with young pitchers.

    I wish Cashman would keep his trap shut

  394. blake January 15th, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Betsy,

    the Rangers lineup is really good already and if you added Prince to it then it would put it on a whole other level…..the Yanks could still beat them of course….but I wouldn’t like it that they got him much.

  395. Teary . Francona January 15th, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Nick

    You should feel like you’re out $50. But like I said, I’ll send you the payment for Bret, since I never had a problem with him.

    I do feel extremely bad, not that it makes any difference, for the breach of privacy on you and others.

  396. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Stoneburner,

    True but after Darvish I just don’t see the Rangers being able to blow the Yankees out of the water. The Yankees can offer similar dollars and years with an opt-out after 2 years (2014).

  397. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    jacksquat January 15th, 2012 at 2:05 pm
    Yes, I asked Chad yesterday for no more Montero pics. It’s cruel.
    ///

    Seriously? If so, thank you for that. But I do see one here^^^ :(

  398. DaSaint007 January 15th, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    I can see Rangers signing Fielder as a hedge to losing Holiday.

  399. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    and hopefully it means that the Yankees have learned that you can’t let a kid (Joba) throw 70 innings in the minors and then expect them to be a good big league starter immediately.

    —————————————

    SMH one of the dumbest things they have ever done.

  400. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    The Pineda trade is not official until the physicals.
    ///

    If only David Adams were in this one.

  401. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Love how it is always some other third party like the Yankees to blame for certain prospects not breaking through – could never be that the player was not as good or could not handle the physical demands of throwing a baseball or adjusting to baseball.

    When it is Hughes and Joba – people quickly blame the Yankees, Eiland, etc. – but when a Nova succeeds – same organization – who is not to blame there?

    When it is Montero – and a lot of indications are showing the Yanks have questions about catching a staff in 2011 and possibly 2012 – it is not the player – it is the Yankees and Girardi.

    The reason – it would mean the fans were wrong about a certain player making one of the most difficult adjustments – transitioning to MLB and readjusting when the league adjusts on you. . . .

  402. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    I would feel quite happy with Billy Butler despite my lust for Prince. I can get over being a chubby-chaser real fast.

  403. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Blake, I wouldn’t like it, but I’m never scared of any team just because I don’t believe in that. I think the Rangers are already better anyway until proven otherwise, so I just go with the flow. Except for 2009, the playoffs are always the same old story for the Yankees – they have to prove otherwise to me.

  404. dogface January 15th, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    The Yankees can offer similar dollars and years with an opt-out after 2 years (2014).

    =============================

    Why couldn’t Texas offer the same?

  405. Bo knows January 15th, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    Pru

    Glad to see that you’re more balanced today. Last night was very bad. Let’s leave it at that.

    The two Bs had a stellar year in 2010. Lack of control, especially by Betances made for an uncertain future. Now maybe it’s just development of young kids but there is no room in the BP after all the mistakes made re Hughes and Joba.

    Cashman is being very up front and honest with Yankee fans. So, he is willing to take responsibily for his actions. Doesn’t deserve ripping. “The Yankee trust expects Pineda to develop into a 1a pitcher and they are willing to accept the risks involved for the rewards of a cost controlled top end pitcher.

    I have developed a serious dislike for Contreras, the CB guru. Maybe they need a CU guru.

  406. Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    The Yankees with Fielder are a better team than Texas with Fielder. That would be his only motivation would be picking which team he thought he would win with.

    So very unlikely he takes a short term deal. Still, here’s hoping.

  407. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    Stone, so true………blame has to be placed somewhere and better on the Yankees than on the players, right? I don’t buy that at all but that’s how it is…….

  408. blake January 15th, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    Fielder would take the Yankees from one of the top 5 teams in baseball to the clear best team in baseball IMO

  409. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:06 pm
    The two Bs fell back last year re control. If they didn’t, Montero is still here.

    ——————————–

    If the Yankees develop Hughes and Joba properly then Montero is still here
    ///

    Best, you are right.

    How many bags of Tates have you gone through since the news broke?
    —————————-

    probably not as much as you lol jk my friend

  410. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    Wow. Mishandle Hughes and send him to a team where Dave Eiland is waiting for him…
    That’s a whole ‘nuther level of cruel, even for Cashman…

  411. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Best, yea, prolly not ;)

  412. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Cashman does deserve ripping for his dumb comments. We get that there is a risk, but enough already – and those comments do nothing to help Pineda’s transition to another team, nevermind NY. If he has this many reservations about the deal, then he shouldn’t have made it. Either he believes in Pineda or he doesn’t…….

  413. exiledintampa January 15th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Would Pineda’s third pitch have to be a CU? I see he threw a sinker abet very little, but had a 75% gb rate on it.

  414. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    I definitely do not want Prince Fielder on any kind of long-term deal and fortunately that won’t happen. Hal already said it’s not happening..

  415. CB January 15th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    “Your DH spot should be a fluid role, dynamically filled with players for rest days and what not.”

    This idea comes up all of the time and I think it’s really counter productive to have this kind of “rotating DH.”

    DH is a position. People somehow think that DH is a spot where a lot of offense is produced. This isn’t true. The average DH isn’t really that great a hitter.

    In other words – it’s a potential area to develop significant relative advantage.

    It’s even more important for the Yankees to gain this advantage because they can afford to develop line up depth that other teams can’t.

    It’s not that simple just to DH. Some players can’t really do it because they aren’t integrated into the game in the same way. They don’t do it day in and out.

    And more importantly if you adopt this strategy then you are going to have varying levels of production and talent running through the position.

    If a player needs to rest – especially an older player – just rest him. Period.

    And the flip side of this is that with this strategy then the manager may be more inclined to give an Eduardo Nunez more at bats.

    Treating the DH spot as a kind of revolving place holder is a lost opportunity to create substantial positional advantage.

    The Red Sox have thrived on creating this kind of positional advantage. The White Sox did so before.

    You cannot lose the opportunity to maximize positional advantage over 650 plate appearances.

  416. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    blake January 15th, 2012 at 2:15 pm
    Fielder would take the Yankees from one of the top 5 teams in baseball to the clear best team in baseball IMO
    ////

    Swing’s tailor made, that’s for sure. Provide Cano with protection. Save the lineup from sucking again in October.

  417. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Or, if Joba and Phil had been as good as people hoped, Montero might still be here. That’s the way it is with young pitchers.

    ———————————–

    I’d rather look at it my way because the Yankees are in charge of their development so it rests mostly on their shoulders because of the way they handled them.

  418. MTU January 15th, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    Randy is right in one regard.

    All of this controversy has brought back alot of former posters.

  419. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    dogface January 15th, 2012 at 2:12 pm
    The Yankees can offer similar dollars and years with an opt-out after 2 years (2014).

    =============================

    Why couldn’t Texas offer the same?

    ******

    They could.

    If it’s close, I’d think Prince (and most players for that matter) would rather play for the Yankees, especially being a lefty hitter in Yankees stadium.

  420. Ghostwriter January 15th, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 15th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    Bad job by the FO then

    Disagree. Your DH spot should be a fluid role, dynamically filled with players for rest days and what not. You would naturally be playing guys on their positive splits and you can still end up with near elite level production from the position.
    ==========

    Nice theory. It’s too bad that it doesn’t work out in practice. The Yanks have been doing this rotating DH crap since Girardi got here, and the only time that they’ve had an OPS above .800 out of the DH slot was in 2009, when Matsui got the vast majority of the ABs. The fact is that guys need routines.

  421. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    You have to break a lot of eggs (pitching prospects) before you make that omelette. Same with positional prospects – very few make it – most struggle. Look at the sophmore year a Heyward has – or what Brandon Belt was supposed to do for SF last year – those two put up video game numbers much better than Montero in AAA. Look at the struggles the Angels and Dodgers have had to go through to breakthrough their prospects for every Kemp – there is a Loney – for every Ervin Santana there is a Brandon Wood – so for every Hughes and Chamberlain – there is (and we are still not sure Hughes is done just yet). . . .

  422. Teary . Francona January 15th, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    This.

    New York is already the most difficult place for many players to transition to due to the culture of winning and the demands of the fans, Cashman doesn’t need to open his gigantic mouth and discuss the possibility of Pineda’s failure to develop into a #1 starter.

  423. Ghostwriter January 15th, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    “It’s not that simple just to DH. Some players can’t really do it because they aren’t integrated into the game in the same way. They don’t do it day in and out.

    And more importantly if you adopt this strategy then you are going to have varying levels of production and talent running through the position.

    If a player needs to rest – especially an older player – just rest him. Period. ”

    ======

    Spot on.

  424. Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Then we completely disagree in philosophy, Best. I just don’t see how the players (whether it’s these 2 or any other) don’t bear the brunt of it all – the credit or the blame. The ghost of Albert Einstein could be teaching me about physics and I would still be hopeless – that’s not his fault. There is only so much a teacher can do and so much an organization can do.

  425. Nick in SF January 15th, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    “I do feel extremely bad, not that it makes any difference, for the breach of privacy on you and others.”

    That’s encouraging, but we both know that talk is cheap. Feeling bad and saying you feel bad won’t do much to make amends, especially if the underlying behavior hasn’t completely stopped, as you suggested the last time you openly posted on this forum.

    If you want to feel better, why not contact Chad and tell him your name, phone number, and address? Explain to him why you’re not going to invade the privacy of his readers anymore. Wouldn’t that help make you feel better?

  426. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Pru

    Glad to see that you’re more balanced today. Last night was very bad. Let’s leave it at that.
    ///

    Let’s. But thanks for the two cents :D.

  427. Bret The Hitman January 15th, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    I definitely do not want Prince Fielder on any kind of long-term deal and fortunately that won’t happen. Hal already said it’s not happening..

    **********

    I think Hal left himself some wiggle room on Prince Fielder. Here’s what he said in Newsday before this Pineda deal. Before being the operative word because they still had Montero.

    HAL on PRINCE

    “We’ve got a budget,” Steinbrenner said. “I’m a little concerned about our payroll. Brian knows that. Having said that, if a deal comes up that has favorable terms, then it’s something I’m going to look at.”

  428. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    So Yankees screw up Hughes and Chamberlain – but get it right w/ Nova and Robertson? Say what??????

  429. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Francona, that’s good advice. You should take it. Seriously.

  430. Bo knows January 15th, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Let’s. But thanks for the two cents .

    ——————————
    Well, as they say ‘Talk is cheap”.

  431. dogface January 15th, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    People somehow think that DH is a spot where a lot of offense is produced

    ===========================

    AL stats for 2011 indicate the DH position produced the 2nd highest OPS behind 1B. 2nd most RBI behind 1B, 3rd most homers behind 1B and RF, and the highest OBP.

  432. Ghostwriter January 15th, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    The Yankees didn’t just trade Montero to fill the slot with a $18-million-per-year player.

  433. luis January 15th, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Stoneburner,

    With all due respect, you are right about that in the end is the player that has to deliver, but rushing them didn’t help. On the trade, you basically traded something you lack ( a bat ), for something that You have in excess ( pitching ), i am not arguing that Pineda may turn out to be a frontline starter, but he isn’t there yet. For me, Montero was untouchable due to the lack of position players in the farm system and that he has a one in a million bat. I hope that the trade becomes a good one for the team, but right now I think it was dumb.

  434. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Love how it is always some other third party like the Yankees to blame for certain prospects not breaking through – could never be that the player was not as good or could not handle the physical demands of throwing a baseball or adjusting to baseball.

    When it is Hughes and Joba – people quickly blame the Yankees, Eiland, etc. – but when a Nova succeeds – same organization – who is not to blame there?

    When it is Montero – and a lot of indications are showing the Yanks have questions about catching a staff in 2011 and possibly 2012 – it is not the player – it is the Yankees and Girardi.

    The reason – it would mean the fans were wrong about a certain player making one of the most difficult adjustments – transitioning to MLB and readjusting when the league adjusts on you. . . .
    ——————————————–
    1. Hard to blame the player when the prospects were handled properly through the early yrs of theri development. We all understand not all prospects work out but let’s be honest when it comes Hughes and Joba the Yankees did a poor job. The two players take some of the blame no one can deny that but the Yanks take a majority of it.

    2. Nova has to do it again. I’m not giving them a pat on the back for Nova. And I’m a fan of the kid but he has to repeat his season.

  435. Ghostwriter January 15th, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    dogface January 15th, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    People somehow think that DH is a spot where a lot of offense is produced

    ===========================

    AL stats for 2011 indicate the DH position produced the 2nd highest OPS behind 1B. 2nd most RBI behind 1B, 3rd most homers behind 1B and RF, and the highest OBP.
    ============

    I wonder how many of those DHs were dedicated DHs….

  436. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    So Yankees screw up Hughes and Chamberlain – but get it right w/ Nova and Robertson? Say what??????

    ————————-

    We’re talking about starting pitchers and Nova has to do it again.

  437. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    This is what bothers me the most about the “huggers” – they have already made up their mind. They toss around words like “generational” and already have Montero’s career stats written down. They did the same with Joba and Phil – and when the players do not live up to the hype or their pre-conceived notions of the player – they look for someone else to blame than the player and their own “personal” amateur assessment based on a few games they saw the kid at in Trenton or Charleston (love that one – the drive to the minor league game is what makes it so and makes it so real for them).

    So when Hughes and Chamberlain struggle – they look for the excuse.

    If Montero had started off hitting .240 or .250 – they blame would go to Kevin Long and Joe Girardi in some fashion.

    You can argue with this ideal and pedestal they are put on – it is challenging a belief system. But sometimes you have to wait and see how things play out – evaluate things two – five – eight years down the line. It is the difference b/w evaluating Joquian Arias and Robinson Cano NOT in Feb. 2004 for ARod when a trade goes down – but in 2011/2012.

  438. jacksquat January 15th, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Colon to the A’s.

    Queue the Colon/”athletic” jokes.

  439. Ghostwriter January 15th, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    luis January 15th, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Stoneburner,

    With all due respect, you are right about that in the end is the player that has to deliver, but rushing them didn’t help. On the trade, you basically traded something you lack ( a bat ), for something that You have in excess ( pitching ), i am not arguing that Pineda may turn out to be a frontline starter, but he isn’t there yet. For me, Montero was untouchable due to the lack of position players in the farm system and that he has a one in a million bat. I hope that the trade becomes a good one for the team, but right now I think it was dumb.
    ==========

    This about sums it up. I really don’t understand why they felt the need to do this, after they signed Kuroda. This makes no sense to me. Now, they have a significant surplus of pitching, and a fairly significant hole in the offense. I guess that they could make it work if they moved ARod to DH, and gave Nunez a chance at being the everyday third baseman.

  440. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:27 pm
    Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    So Yankees screw up Hughes and Chamberlain – but get it right w/ Nova and Robertson? Say what??????

    ————————-

    We’re talking about starting pitchers and Nova has to do it again.

    ********

    No – we are talking about pitchers here. Robertson is just as important to the pitching staff.

    Until proven otherwise – Nova is what he is – 4th in ROY – a postseason win under his belt – and a thorn in everyone’s side that the Yankees cannot develop their own pitching. . . .

  441. Ghostwriter January 15th, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    EDIT:
    This about sums it up. I really don’t understand why they felt the need to do this deal for Pineda, after they signed Kuroda. This makes no sense to me. Now, they have a significant surplus of pitching, and a fairly significant hole in the offense, having given up Montero. I guess that they could make it work if they moved ARod to DH, and gave Nunez a chance at being the everyday third baseman.

  442. MTU January 15th, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    This whole Montero thing has caused a tear in the fabric of the space-time contiuum which is having ripple effects even here on loHud.

    You can feel it.

    :)

  443. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    You have to break a lot of eggs (pitching prospects) before you make that omelette. Same with positional prospects – very few make it – most struggle. Look at the sophmore year a Heyward has – or what Brandon Belt was supposed to do for SF last year – those two put up video game numbers much better than Montero in AAA. Look at the struggles the Angels and Dodgers have had to go through to breakthrough their prospects for every Kemp – there is a Loney – for every Ervin Santana there is a Brandon Wood – so for every Hughes and Chamberlain – there is (and we are still not sure Hughes is done just yet). . . .

    ——————————-

    Every team has failures but they at least have one guy the Yankees haven’t produced their one guy since Andy.

  444. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    jacksquat January 15th, 2012 at 2:29 pm
    Colon to the A’s.

    Queue the Colon/”athletic” jokes.

    *********

    I wonder who plays Colon in Moneyball II: The Revenge of Giambi.

  445. dogface January 15th, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    I wonder how many of those DHs were dedicated DHs…

    =============================

    Guess it depends on how you define it. 450 PA’s? More?

    Fun Fact: Yankees led the AL in homers from DH spot in 2011

  446. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    The point is, a bat like that means no more musical DHs. You don’t ass backward it and get RID of the super bat to put your little rotation in place.

  447. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    MTU January 15th, 2012 at 2:33 pm
    This whole Montero thing has caused a tear in the fabric of the space-time contiuum which is having ripple effects even here on loHud.

    You can feel it.
    ///

    Kid’s powerful :(

  448. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    You have to break a lot of eggs (pitching prospects) before you make that omelette. Same with positional prospects – very few make it – most struggle. Look at the sophmore year a Heyward has – or what Brandon Belt was supposed to do for SF last year – those two put up video game numbers much better than Montero in AAA. Look at the struggles the Angels and Dodgers have had to go through to breakthrough their prospects for every Kemp – there is a Loney – for every Ervin Santana there is a Brandon Wood – so for every Hughes and Chamberlain – there is (and we are still not sure Hughes is done just yet). . . .

    ——————————-

    Every team has failures but they at least have one guy the Yankees haven’t produced their one guy since Andy.

    *******

    Wang was established – pre-injury

    Nova just had a nice encouraging season

    And we are really talking since Cashman took over the reigns entirely from the Tampa crew making the Raul Mondesi crazy type trades. Hughes and Joba and Kennedy were round two of eggs – Wang probably the first round of eggs along with Cano. Now we have Pineda, Nova, Banuelos, and Betances round three – just need one or to make it. . . . .

  449. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:27 pm
    Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    So Yankees screw up Hughes and Chamberlain – but get it right w/ Nova and Robertson? Say what??????

    ————————-

    We’re talking about starting pitchers and Nova has to do it again.

    ********

    No – we are talking about pitchers here. Robertson is just as important to the pitching staff.

    Until proven otherwise – Nova is what he is – 4th in ROY – a postseason win under his belt – and a thorn in everyone’s side that the Yankees cannot develop their own pitching. . . .

    ———————

    Drob is important no doubt about that but the topic is starting not pitchers in general. If that’s the case do they take bows for Joba even though he has been up and down for his
    career.

    Nova he has to do it again. If he falls off the map next yr(which I don’t think he will) are you still going to point and say he’s a thorn….

  450. Carlo January 15th, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    Stone – ur post that starts in with “the huggers” should be framed and sold in modells throughout the city. Well done.

  451. MTU January 15th, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    JAP-

    Perhaps he sneak back thru a wormhole from the Seattle paralell Universe.

    ;)

  452. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    Really, the DH excuse is the most feeble-minded thing ever advanced.

  453. Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Wang only started for like 2-3 yrs before he got injured and Nova has to do it again I’m sorry.

  454. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    I still like bringing back Damon (here I am two years later saying this – again) – even just for him to foul off good pitches and drive up the pitch count when he is in there – and when he is not in the game – a very nice PH off the bench.

  455. Carlo January 15th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Great baseball minds always say, “you can never have too many DH’s”.

  456. Nick in SF January 15th, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    If it was freeing for you to know that SJ and Trisha found out your name, wouldn’t it be more so to let Chad know all of your information? You could include information about your employer as well.

    As for who will play Colon in Moneyball 2, I’m thinking it should be the ghost of Dom DeLuise.

  457. MTU January 15th, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    There’s a new thread —>

  458. luis January 15th, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    Hi Ghost,

    What I’m really worried about is that they might feel the need to get a bat in the middle of the season, and pull the trigger on a trade for a bat that involves the B’s. So we end up with a bunch of hired guns and no homegrown core.

  459. Stoneburner January 15th, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 15th, 2012 at 2:40 pm
    Wang only started for like 2-3 yrs before he got injured and Nova has to do it again I’m sorry.

    ********

    That is because it is only be a few years – you cannot evaluate how things are run now vs. before when the organization was a mess and drafting guys like Dave frickin Walling and Alex Graman in the draft.

  460. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    MTU,

    Where’s David Adams when you need him? Yanks were saved by Arizona’s passing on Cano, saved by Adams’ ankle the first go-round with Montero… he hits like a demon, shows his opposite-field swing and Yankee Stadium were born to make music together, and they do it again…. no ankle, no clerical error, will save them from themselves, this time. If anyone happens to see Gary Sanchez, pour water on him, and mix in some of that plant food…

  461. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    luis January 15th, 2012 at 2:41 pm
    Hi Ghost,

    What I’m really worried about is that they might feel the need to get a bat in the middle of the season, and pull the trigger on a trade for a bat that involves the B’s. So we end up with a bunch of hired guns and no homegrown core.
    ///

    luis, I’m past worrying about this stuff. Maybe it’ll be best for those guys if they get out of here.

    Did you see my link?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5R_pS0h5Qk

  462. RMS January 15th, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    Don’t know what else Cashman has up his sleeve but I hope he can unload AJ. Either pick up a lot of his salary or swap bad contracts.

    ————————————————-
    As far as Montero. If Cashman really felt he was the next Manny/Piazza etc., I don’t think he would have traded him.

  463. luis January 15th, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    JAP,

    I didn’t but I just saw it, that basically sums it up for me, my feelings exactly!! LOL

  464. J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    luis, it’s ineffable…

  465. Ghostwriter January 15th, 2012 at 2:55 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    Did you see my link?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5R_pS0h5Qk

    =====================

    RFLMAO!

  466. RMS January 15th, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    Like the idea of signing Damon. Has been here, good clubhouse guy, can hit.

  467. mick January 15th, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    Betsy January 15th, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    Now you’re being sarcastic with your “good to know” comment. If you don’t mind, I will beg out of this discussion. You have my answer – you don’t have to like it. If you want to act like Mick, that’s your business, but I don’t have to respond.
    ====================================

    # J. Alfred Prufrock January 15th, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    Who Mick?

    Mantle?

    Jagger?

    Sorry, you lost me, there.
    =======================================
    No, JAP ..you see Betsy’s hiatus has not remedied her problem of instigating trouble.
    She is back, as expected, to clog the blog.
    Here I was minding my own business when she openly unveils her massive wound for the Lohud public to view.
    Get over yourself blowhard.

  468. mbspam17 January 15th, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    Here are my thoughts on the Pineda trade

    http://gotsportsblog.com/micha.....win-win-2/

  469. Dill Pickler January 15th, 2012 at 11:29 pm

    ron says: “Prince is still out there. Name me a potential ace that is or was out there,that is similar to pineda. If we wanted,we can sign prince,and get more production than montero,guaranteed.
    Pena,giambi,etc.. There are options.”

    Here are the problems with that statement:
    1. Pineda is a “potential ace.” the minor leagues are swimming with “potential aces.” How many of them actually pan out? You want me to name a similar “potential ace”? Dellin Betances. Phil Hughes. Cashman repeatedly said he wouldn’t trade Montero unless for an ACTUAL ace. We now know that wasn’t true.

    2. Yeah, they COULD sign Prince, but all signs point to them not even considering it.

    3. You say that Pena or Giambi (! HA!) could provide “more production” than Montero?
    Of course, we don’t know what Montero is capable of yet. But certainly all signs point to him being a huge, impact bat. To compare him to near 40-year-old whiff machines like Carlos Pena (.225 last year in Wrigley) and Jason Giambi, which is so ludicrous I won’t even go into how dumb THAT suggestion is — is just not appropriate.

    Yes, they can cobble together a decent DH platoon between Jones and Pena or whoever. But to say Montero wouldn’t provide more — a LOT more — is to ignore his potential. We’ll see. Count me on the side that thinks this team needed Montero’s impact bat a lot more than it needed another young project pitcher with potential.

  470. Dill Pickler January 15th, 2012 at 11:48 pm

    “G . Love, I agree with pretty much that entire post.”

    Make that two of us. Great post.

    To all those who blather that the offense is juuuuust fine, we scored the 2nd most runs in all of baseball last year, blah blah blah, that was basically the same thing being said the year before. This offense is Jekyl and Hyde, and is becoming more so every day. Tex and Swisher and the rest of these slumpos get turned into guava jelly in the postseason, year after year after year. The problem is Cashman doesn’t see that either. He thinks the offense is juuuuuust fine, which is why he won’t even consider Prince Fielder.

    The bottom line is this: we don’t have another bat like Montero’s in the minors that is anywhere near ready for the show.

    We do have pitchers like Pineda who are very close to being as ready as he is.

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