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Three down, three to go: Arbitration decisions going as expected

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 17, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Jon Heyman has the numbers for the Joba Chamberlain and Dave Robertson deals.

Chamberlain will make a little more than $1.6 million next season, a mild raise from last year’s $1.4-million agreement.

Robertson will make $1.6 million with a little more in incentives. Last year, he was making barely more than the minimum. Not a bad payday for a first year of arbitration.

With half of the Yankees arbitration-eligible players now under contract, things are going almost perfectly as expected. Back in November, MLBTradeRumors used its formula to project salaries for arbitration-eligible players. Those projections had Robertson making $1.5 million, Chamberlain making $1.7 million and Phil Hughes making $3 million (Hughes got $3.2 million).

So what can we expect from the other half?

MLBTradeRumors projects Russell Martin getting $6.7 million, Brett Gardner getting $3.3 million and Boone Logan getting $1.6 million.

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375 Responses to “Three down, three to go: Arbitration decisions going as expected”

  1. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    From Sports Illustrated

    “Fielder has shown no signs of slowing down despite his 5’11″, 275-pound (or more) physique, having played no fewer than 157 games in any of his six full seasons, all with the Brewers, and has played 485 out of a possible 486 games in the past three seasons.”

    Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....z1jkR2rggF

  2. DONNYBROOK January 17th, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Those Fielder games played numbers would Not exist if he was coached by Girardi.

  3. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Repost:

    Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    Most comments I’ve read here and on other baseball forums / message boards / blogs are in favor of the trade, not sure what you’ve been reading

    —————-

    As someone pointed out earlier, being upset about losing Montero but happy about having Pineda aren’t mutually exclusive… although they’re being painted that way.

  4. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    Of course, with Banuelos selected as the second best left handed pitching prospect, he will be traded because Girardi doesn’t want a better left handed pitcher on the team than he was.

    ********

    :lol: That’s actually funny (and yes I realize you’re mocking fans who blame the Montero trade on Girardi)!

  5. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    In addition to playing all of those games (one would think it would slow him down, right?)… September is statistically Fielder’s most productive month in his career.

  6. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    If they gave Hamels a 1 year $15mil contract to avoid arbitration… Lincecum is going to get like ~$18mil. That’s crazy.

  7. CountryClub January 17th, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    Buster Olney
    PHI has $104m committed to 6 players for 2013, not counting Hamels, whose market value will be in $20-25m a year range as a FA next fall.

  8. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    It’s plain to see that Logan, Gardner and martin are not team players and “True Yankees because they’re holding out for the last nickel.

  9. DONNYBROOK January 17th, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    That’s exactly why I keep tellin’ ya to watch Lincecum and Cain. The Phils will eventually get something done concerning retaining Hamels long-term.

  10. jacksquat January 17th, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Erin January 17th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
    Gossip Break: Yankee broadcaster edition

    No words for the shirt he’s wearing.

    Pix11Jodi jodi applegate
    @RealMichaelKay mourning the removal of his #SportsCenter viewing couch of 20+ years. #HGTV #DearGenevieve Sat 8:30pm http://twitter.com/Pix11Jodi/s…..17/photo/1

    Which couch is going? Hopefully that unwrapped, brown turd.

    The shirt looks like a tablecloth in a cheap diner.

  11. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    They will get something done because they already have 6 $17m+/year contracts and they need a 7th?

  12. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    And the bottom line is who puts more butts in the seats, a 50 HR masher in the daily lineup with a charismatic personality and a million dollar smile, or an ace pitcher every 5th day?

  13. dogface January 17th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    It’s plain to see that Logan, Gardner and martin are not team players and “True Yankees because they’re holding out for the last nickel

    =============================

    They can still settle before the hearings, no?

  14. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    Bret – Is that ace pitcher pitching his “5th day” opening the season as defending champs? :)

  15. The Genius Maker January 17th, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    I was glad to see the last “sub” writers article was about Rivera. My site was named The Genius Maker (on the right listing of sites) as a Tribute to Mariano Rivera. The Genius Maker was because he made Torre look like a genius by bailing him out almost every time. To only throw one speed and be as effective as anyone to ever play is astounding. BTW, most of my site is more about the “inside” part of the game as I get into pitch selection and the subtleties of the game. Here’s to Mariano, may he have another great year!

    BTW, I people wanting Damon, need to look at how poor he was last year and also how he hit lefties better than righties – we don’t need him. While this may seem to oppose what I just said, I would trade Burnett and up to 5 mil for Jason Bay though. Bay is 5 years younger than Damon and while he hasn’t hit well the last two years, he did crush lefties with a .920 OPS. The Yanks need specialists because so many of their players won’t be pinch hit for. Bay would be a good guy against all lefties and could spell Gardner or Granderson (who I think will struggle more against lefties this year)

  16. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Terrific job by @RobinsonCano, donating six ambulances & four school buses to his hometown of San Pedro de Macoris today.

  17. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Hamels will most definitely hit the free agent market after this season.

  18. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    I see Cain more likely to reach as well because San Fran has good young pitching and need $$ for offense. They have holes all over the field.

    So if I’m the Yankees I first try to get Prince Fielder at my price (20 million with an opt-out after 2 years) and if he passes then I’m OK holding money for the next FA class and the possibility at Cain, Greinke, Upton, Cabrera.

  19. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    They can settle any time between now and the middle of the hearing.

  20. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    It’s plain to see that Logan, Gardner and martin are not team players and “True Yankees because they’re holding out for the last nickel.

    ——————–

    How dare you speak ill of Thurman Munson on this board!!! How dare you, sir..how dare you!

  21. CB January 17th, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    The Phillies have a really difficult set of budgetary issues. They’ve really concentrated a lot of money on relatively few players. And they have significant holes in their line up.

    Hamels is an absolute stud front line starter. But at some point continuing to concentrate more and more money on a handful of players is going to become an issue for them. Especially since so much of those resources would be going to their rotation and they have a very barren minor league system now.

    Will be interesting to see what happens there.

    The Phils have already given him an AAV of 15M before he even tests the market.

    I don’t see how a Weaver level contract gets it done to sign him to an extension given that he only has one year left. Don’t see how that level of money is enough reason for him to not test the market.

  22. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    MLBTradeRumors projects Russell Martin getting $6.7 million

    —————-

    The Yankees might want to put away the Thurman Munson comparisons for this one.

  23. CountryClub January 17th, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    For those that are interested in the results (or who want to vote), here is the RAB poll I mentioned:

    http://riveraveblues.com/2012/.....ver-62345/

  24. dogface January 17th, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    V. Martinez lost for 2012 season todue to torn ACL.

  25. Erin January 17th, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    beckjason #Tigers announce Victor Martinez has suffered torn ACL. Surgery would likely sideline him for the season.

  26. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    Win a copy of “The Life You Can’t Even Begin To Imagine,” Derek Jeter’s book with @JackCurryYES. http://bit.ly/xeIzEq

  27. jacksquat January 17th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    Seems like the younger/cheaper guys have signed and the older/more expensive guys are taking a little longer. Makes sense.

  28. The Genius Maker January 17th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    And the bottom line is who puts more butts in the seats, a 50 HR masher in the daily lineup with a charismatic personality and a million dollar smile, or an ace pitcher every 5th day?
    *********************

    Well it depends what comes with the 50 HR’s? If there is no OBP and little other power than I take the ace as the word ace implies he is excellent. Assuming both guys are excellent, I would take the starting pitcher. A great 2 way player, at a key defensive position might get the nod over the great starter, but no way a DH (I believe Montero will at best get to be an average defensive catcher and predict he will be more like Victor Martinez- a little better thrower, but a weaker receiver)

  29. DONNYBROOK January 17th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    The shelf life of an athlete is extremely short. I do NOT blame ‘em for trying to get every last nickel possible.

  30. PittsburghYankeeFan January 17th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    Jason Bay for a young pitcher and AJ? Would the Mets bite?

  31. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    3700 votes, 11% voted it below “indifferent”.

    I wonder where all those people are, they must be quiet :(

  32. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Jason Bay for a young pitcher and AJ? Would the Mets bite?

    Why would the Yankees do this

  33. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    VMart is going to miss the entire season with just a torn ACL :???:

  34. Cosmo January 17th, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Colts finish cleaning house, Caldwell fired today joining the Polians. Should be a no brainer now to decline Manning’s $ 20 plus million dollar option and draft Luck out of Stanford.

  35. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    woops.

    That was meant to be :?:

  36. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    rofl @ VMart… Oritz is the last DH left standing… and he has no contract. My how the game has changed.

  37. dogface January 17th, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    The Yankees might want to put away the Thurman Munson comparisons for this one.

    ====================================

    Yeah, they’re probably better off playing the “Your bat disappeared for 4 months” card when it comes to a hearing.

  38. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    The second NYY pass on Fielder, Philly locks up Hamels because they would know damn well the Yankees are lurking and losing Hamels to the Yankees is a huge power swing.

    Hamels also realizes being a pitcher he is more prone to injury. That might be part of the reason why top flight pitchers like Weaver are taking the guaranteed money with their hometown team.

  39. The Genius Maker January 17th, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    LOL, I made my comment without knowing Victor Martinez was injured…assume he was healthy and my comp is still accurate

  40. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    Why would he miss the entire season?

  41. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    Why would he miss the entire season?

    A knee injury of that magnitude is >12 months recovery time.

  42. The Genius Maker January 17th, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    Patrick; would you trade AJ for Bay?

  43. CB January 17th, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    “Hamels will most definitely hit the free agent market after this season.”

    At this point, when he’s so close to free agency, there’s not much security Hamels will get by signing an extension.

    The time to lock him up was last winter.

    At this point the best I’d guess they could hope for would be to offer him 125M-130M on the hopes they can avoid him getting offers of 150-160M on the market.

    He’ll get 150-160 as long as he stays healthy.

    Hamels is such an interesting pitcher. Went through a number of the challenges a young pitcher has to. Dead arm. The league adjusting to his two pitch repertoire. Needing to develop an third pitch.

    He’s a legit ace now. Great pitcher since adding that cutter. That was the tool he needed against LH hitters. Before that he really didn’t have a way of dominating them. Really developed.

  44. Erin January 17th, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    DRob30 @BruceBeck4NY thanks Bruce! I took @ERob3 to chick-fil-a for lunch, but it is a special day so she may get 2 fancy meals lol

  45. Triple Short of a Cycle January 17th, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    Is Fielder waiting for the Darvish situation to resolve itself? I can’t think of any reason why he hasn’t signed yet.

    If they don’t sign Darvish does he go to Texas and if Darvish does sign does he go to the Nationals?

    Could the Yankees be a dark horse?

  46. Joe from Long Island January 17th, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    victor martinez? wow. how did that happen? tough luck for what seems like a good guy. very bad for detroit.

  47. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    Patrick

    Just an ACL tear? You can be back playing competitive sports in as little as 3-4 months.

  48. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    Patrick; would you trade AJ for Bay?

    lol, no

  49. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    Just an ACL tear? You can be back playing competitive sports in as little as 3-4 months.

    Are you from the future dude? You can jog and stuff after 3-4 months but professional sports? No way

  50. Joe from Long Island January 17th, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    hamel’s career path, as documented by cb, is very instructive, for all of us.

  51. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    Triple,

    Yes Boras is waiting for Texas because they have big $$ and I bet his client wants to hit in a hitter’s park and play for a winner. If I’m Prince I either want to be a Ranger or a Yankee. If Darvish signs and Texas can only muster a low-ball offer for Prince then it comes down to the Yankees and Nats. If it comes down to that, I think the Yankees get Prince at their price with an opt-out after 2 years (before 2014).

  52. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    Erin January 17th, 2012 at 3:31 pm
    DRob30 @BruceBeck4NY thanks Bruce! I took @ERob3 to chick-fil-a for lunch, but it is a special day so she may get 2 fancy meals lol

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    With that pay raise, he could even spring for a night out at Aunt Jo’s Country Kitchen and a few frames at Bowl-A-Rama.

  53. Tar January 17th, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    Country Club thanks.

    I am really surprised by the results.

  54. blake January 17th, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    “Do you think the idea that’s out there about the Yanks wanting to be under 189 mil in 2014 is real? Because if you do, they arent signing any big time FAs in the next couple of years.”

    I think its a goal yes…..I don’t think they’ll be able to do it at the expense of winning though because that’ll cost them more money than they save.

    I think theoretically they could sign Hamels and Fielder and still get under 189…IF their prospects pan out…..if their entire rotation and bullpen are cheap and filled internally then its possible…..but they’ll need that to happen either way most likely.

    I think they are serious about the 189 number……his realistic that’ll be I don’t know……it’ll largely depend on how their young players progress.

  55. Erin January 17th, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    With that pay raise, he could even spring for a night out at Aunt Jo?s Country Kitchen and a few frames at Bowl-A-Rama.

    ********************

    :lol: :lol:

  56. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    rofl @ VMart… Oritz is the last DH left standing… and he has no contract. My how the game has changed.

    Its almost like having a good DH would offer a team some kind of competitive advantage over the rest of baseball… interesting

  57. blake January 17th, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    “Could the Yankees be a dark horse?”

    I hope so but doubt it…..and yea I think he’s waiting on theroster Rangers because if they can’t sign Darvish Im almost positive they’ll sign Prince…..which would be worse IMO

  58. Joe from Long Island January 17th, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    bob nightengale, of usa today, via mlbtr, is quoted as saying that hamels’ agent says – following this? – hamels will def, file for fa next off season.

    if he does, the yanks have to be in on him. if they then have an xs of pitching, i’m sure they can find someone to talk with them.

  59. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    Its almost like having a good DH would offer a team some kind of competitive advantage over the rest of baseball… interesting

    Nah rather give AB’s to Nunez and Chavez

  60. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    Are you from the future dude? You can jog and stuff after 3-4 months but professional sports? No way

    ——————-

    I was back playing soccer 4 months after I tore mine as a scrawny high school kid without access to world class doctors and therapy.

    Slade Heathcott IIRC was back on the baseball field in 3 1/2 months.

  61. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    It is interesting…

    especially considering who is the lone standing big-name free agent left with a tailor-made swing for YS.

  62. The Genius Maker January 17th, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    LOL??? after many .900 OPS years he has had two weak years with the Mets yet still had an OPS of .920 against lefties! Burnett has had back to back over 5 ERA’s and they both are signed through 2013 at about the same money. I am confident Bay would be more valuable to the Yanks than Burnett would be. Even if Bay only platooned against lefties, he would be more valuable. You disagree?

  63. blake January 17th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    Id rather do Carlos Lee than Bay… if Im trading expensive bad for expensive bad

  64. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    jerkface – almost as much as an impact as a good pitcher :)

  65. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    as as as as … that could have been written better…

  66. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    LGY,

    I guess you’re right, I don’t have personal experience with it. But from what I’ve read and heard it takes at least a year until you feel 100% after tearing ACL.

    And about Slade, just read this in an article about him, “Major League scouts were stunned how fast Heathcott recovered from knee surgery, leading his baseball team to a Texas state championship in his senior year.”

    So 3.5 months is definitely not the norm.

  67. Tar January 17th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    What about JD Drew as the lefty tandem to Jones. Is he even healthy?

  68. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    jerkface – almost as much as an impact as a good pitcher

    Now which is more scarce right now… oh yea the DH.

  69. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    “People may not want to keep hearing this, but the reason this trade is hard to take is that Montero’s bat is as close to a given as it gets. ”

    yankeefeminista-

    this is the basic truth of this whole debacle of trading montero.

    pineda probably has like 1/2 the chance of a 15 year quality career as montero.
    CB always raises the level of the conversation and his position the way i understand his position is that the yankees traded a lower risk player in montero for a higher risk player in pineda.

    they in effect traded for more risk.

    i don’t see how anyone can see it any other way.

    i think it’s the worse trade i’ve seen the yankees do in my lifetime .and that’s a long time. i came into the world with my mother yelling at my father for listening on the car radio to dimaggio destroy the red sox in the famous 4th of july series in the summer of ’49 as he drove us to the hospital for me to be delivered. that’s a lot of years rooting for the yankees.

    this is the worst yankee trade since Peterson and Kekich traded wives.

    i don’t hope pineda fails. it’s just that he’s a major risk.
    montero was as sure a thing as you get in baseball.

    montero did the job on the big stage. the kid was clutch. he was a yankee.

  70. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    @Sean_McAdam
    RedSox reveal Carl Crawford underwent arthroscopic surgery on left wrist today. Expected to be recovered and “hitting at some point in ST.”

  71. Joe from Long Island January 17th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    i would do a lot of due diligence before trading for bay. though, aj for bay is intriguing. would just him out very well.

  72. blake January 17th, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Pretty big loss from the Tigers lineup

  73. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    jerkface – no, the “pro DH” is extinct, it’s not scarce.

  74. Joe from Long Island January 17th, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    i wouldn’t touch drew.

  75. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    So 3.5 months is definitely not the norm.

    Well Heathcott is a white gamer and V-Mart is an ethnic DH, so you have to consider the added time brought on by his lackadaisical approach to rehab.

  76. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Patrick

    Oh yeah, I’m definitely not saying 3-4 months is the norm. I just don’t understand why VMart is being written off for the entire season.

  77. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    jerkface – no, the “pro DH” is extinct, it’s not scarce.

    So its almost like having one would be like having one of the rarest and most valuable things in baseball… interesting.

  78. DONNYBROOK January 17th, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    You guys keep saying the Yanks are short on OF’ers down on the farm, and Swish’s contract expires at the end of this season, so the Yanks are gonna sign Another 1B for $20 Mill? George used to do that kind of stuff, Not Hal.

  79. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    Erin January 17th, 2012 at 3:36 pm
    GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    With that pay raise, he could even spring for a night out at Aunt Jo?s Country Kitchen and a few frames at Bowl-A-Rama.

    ********************

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    I say that with a smile, but, that seems to be what he’s about…just a norma; country kisd with a great arm. Not so sure that would be her thrill of a lifetime, though. Isn’t she from Rhode Island or Mass?

  80. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    You disagree?

    How many damn times do I have to say it? I wouldn’t trade Burnett for Bay. Bay is owed more money and has been worse over the last two years than Burnett. He also can’t stay healthy. Yeah he had good numbers vs lefties last year, but in 2010 his OPS was .750 vs lefties.

    Yankees need pitching more than outfielders anyways, I don’t see the point to this trade.

  81. Best To Ever Do It January 17th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    Cosmo January 17th, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Colts finish cleaning house, Caldwell fired today joining the Polians. Should be a no brainer now to decline Manning’s $ 20 plus million dollar option and draft Luck out of Stanford.

    —————————-

    Yep new era for the Colts

  82. Tar January 17th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    “i wouldn’t touch drew.”

    Because of health, or just a variety of reasons?

  83. The Genius Maker January 17th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    I don’t understand the love for Chavez? I liked his defense and that is the one area that was good, but his OPS of .676 was very weak. The prior year he was at .610 and at 34 I wouldn’t expect a huge turnaround. Now at 1 mil a year he would be our best defenisive 3rd baseman so that has value. Nunez is young with some upside, but he was disappointing as his defense was very weak and his offense at .698 OPS didn’t get it done either. I don’t really like having two weak players. My hope is Nunez takes a step forward; he has the ability, but he also showed a lot of warts, especially with a very weak glove (and the glove seems harder to teach)

  84. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    ScottLauber
    Cherington says #RedSox “not ruling out” Crawford for Opening Day, but not putting timeline on recovery either.

    ScottLauber
    Cherington says #RedSox only discussed one-year deal with Jacoby Ellsbury

  85. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    ***just a normal country kid***

  86. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    jerkface – Or… a complete waste of money! If your “pro DH” can’t play all 7 games of the world series, your team isn’t as strong as mine.

  87. The Genius Maker January 17th, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    blake January 17th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    Id rather do Carlos Lee than Bay… if Im trading expensive bad for expensive bad
    ************
    If I had my choice, I would agree with you, but I would rather have Bay than Burnett

  88. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    Maybe the Yanks are negotiating multi-year contracts with Martin and Gritner…

  89. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    jerkface – Or… a complete waste of money! If your “pro DH” can’t play all 7 games of the world series, your team isn’t as strong as mine.

    My Pro-DH plays 2 home games then pinch hits and plays the latter half of 2 away games and we sweep you. Your move.

    lmao@you thinking 600 PA is a complete waste of money

  90. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    Tar January 17th, 2012 at 3:45 pm
    “i wouldn’t touch drew.”

    Because of health, or just a variety of reasons?

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    The fact that he shared a locker room with an elf and Youkilis would be enough for me? not to mention all of that chicken grease that stuck to him.

  91. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    It’s riskier to pay 150 million for a pitcher (because pitcher’s are injury prone) than it is to trade a DH for a cost-controlled frontline pitcher the year you have a perfectly healthy DH waiting impatiently on the free- market (Prince has only missed a handful of games over 6 years) and while the only team with a competitive advantage at DH is your chief rival, not to mention the fact that Prince would put butts in the seats every day and hit bombs with a swing that is destined for the HOF and is tailor made for Yankees Stadium. Not to mention the million dollar smile.

  92. pat January 17th, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    Cherrington: “If spring training were to open tomorrow, we’d be comfortable with our pitching depth. We have a number of options.”

  93. Erin January 17th, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    GB-I believe she is from the East Coast. No idea what state though.

  94. The Genius Maker January 17th, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    randy i “i think it’s the worse trade i’ve seen the yankees do in my lifetime .and that’s a long time. ”

    *************

    Oh boy. You should look at the numbers Pineda put up. Dismissing the talent of Pineda is silly

  95. blake January 17th, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    “If I had my choice, I would agree with you, but I would rather have Bay than Burnett”

    Id rather not have either of them

  96. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    I wonder if Bobby Valentine would describe the Yankees as “probably” better, in the aftermath of the Yankees signing Prince Fielder.

  97. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    jerkface – Who said that? My team is getting 80% of your DH production at 10% of the cost, and the rest of my team is better as a result. You don’t “sweep” anything, you just lose.

  98. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    Cherrington: “If spring training were to open tomorrow, we’d be comfortable with our pitching depth. We have a number of options.”

    Haha good luck with that dude

    padilla padilla padilla thats all folks

  99. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    jerkface – Who said that? My team is getting 80% of your DH production at 10% of the cost, and the rest of my team is better as a result. You don’t “sweep” anything, you just lose.

    Your missing 20% just left the bases loaded, and my pitcher that provides 90% of your production for 200% of the cost just fist pumped even though he is old and wise from Japan. Then my 160% DH just hit a HR off your boy because he is a true .900 OPS bat which doesnt exist anymore. I have a parade to schedule.

  100. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    Bahahaha

  101. Cosmo January 17th, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    @Sean_McAdam

    RedSox reveal Carl Crawford underwent arthroscopic surgery on left wrist today. Expected to be recovered and “hitting at some point in ST.”

    ============

    Now that’s funny, waiting until Jan. 17th to get his wrist taken care of. Assuming of course his injury occurred last season. Love those Sox medical guys.

  102. CB January 17th, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    I’ve seen this notion of the DH being valueless in many places on the internet.

    The sense I have is that this just the Fangraphs/Dave Cameron point of view spreading as it does all the time. Since Tango came out with his positional adjustment for the DH it seems like people have jumped off the boat very quickly.

    Fangraphs a very useful site. The access to information is great.

    But they have a very particular view of the game. And that view is conceptual before it is statistical. That’s fine. They have a set of perspectives on the game that share important fundamental points of overlap. The sight is also dominated by Dave Cameron.

    But somehow the focus on statistics has blurred away the conceptual assumptions they make, the ones that underpin their analysis.

    This whole notion of the DH being this valueless position has gone completely overboard.

    And it has very limited applicability to the Yankees.

  103. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    Gotta think the Tigers are favorites to sign Pena now.

  104. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    Your missing 20% just left the bases loaded, and my pitcher that provides 90% of your production for 200% of the cost just fist pumped even though he is old and wise from Japan. Then my 160% DH just hit a HR off your boy because he is a true .900 OPS bat which doesnt exist anymore. I have a parade to schedule.

    ID was just 100% owned

  105. Cosmo January 17th, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    Yep new era for the Colts.

    =======

    Apparently so.

  106. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    But they have a very particular view of the game. And that view is conceptual before it is statistical. That’s fine. They have a set of perspectives on the game that share important fundamental points of overlap. The sight is also dominated by Dave Cameron.

    In other words, COUNT UP THE WARS

  107. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    Now that’s funny, waiting until Jan. 17th to get his wrist taken care of. Assuming of course his injury occurred last season. Love those Sox medical guys.

    ———————

    TBritton_Projo
    Cherington says wrist was bothering Crawford at the end of last season.

  108. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    This whole notion of the DH being this valueless position has gone completely overboard.

    Yeah, and it’s being driven by YOU. Maybe if you would stop for like 2 seconds and understand people are actually saying, this discussion would be over.

  109. Pat M. January 17th, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    Looks like Cole Hamels is going to be a very wealthy young man in a years time….And to think he’s not even a top 10 pitcher ……I guess good pitchers are just so plentiful …Dime a dozen, or is it 100 million a dozen

  110. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    Perfect timing for this tweet

    d_a_cameron David Cameron
    Losing Victor Martinez sucks, but let’s not overreact – he was a +3 win player last year. So was Carlos Pena.

  111. CB January 17th, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    “RedSox reveal Carl Crawford underwent arthroscopic surgery on left wrist today. Expected to be recovered and “hitting at some point in ST.””

    That’s some news. Wrist injuries are terrible for hitters. It can take them so long to recover their hitting shape.

    What a way to start season two of that contract. Crawford could really struggle to start the season again.

    And that’s the last thing either he or the red sox could afford.

  112. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    @Sean_McAdam
    RedSox reveal Carl Crawford underwent arthroscopic surgery on left wrist today. Expected to be recovered and “hitting at some point in ST.”

    —————————

    Too bad they didn’t say if he’d be “hitting at some point” during the season…

  113. blake January 17th, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    “I wonder if Bobby Valentine would describe the Yankees as “probably” better, in the aftermath of the Yankees signing Prince Fielder.”

    Probably……now if his name were Prince Suzuki then…..

  114. Cosmo January 17th, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Prince oh Prince please come to NY.

    We will find 600 plus AB’s for you, no problem

  115. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    And to think he’s not even a top 10 pitcher

    He had the 8th lowest ERA in the league last year pitching in CBP

  116. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    Looks like Cole Hamels is going to be a very wealthy young man in a years time….And to think he’s not even a top 10 pitcher ……I guess good pitchers are just so plentiful …Dime a dozen, or is it 100 million a dozen

    ———————

    What 10 pitchers are better than Hamels?

  117. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    7th highest K/BB

  118. CB January 17th, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    “Cherington says wrist was bothering Crawford at the end of last season.”

    This gets even better. Cue the complaints about the Red Sox medical staff.

    And I believe that the Sox just recently got rid of their old medical staff.

  119. Triple Short of a Cycle January 17th, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    As I think the Sox will let Ellsbury go does anyone see the Yankees making a run at him?

  120. Ys Guy January 17th, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    i can just imagine hal and boras sitting down to talk last week.

    Hal: Scottie, how are you? You didn’t tell heyman why we’re here did you?
    Boras: Hey! I told him we were going to talk about Edwin Jackson!
    Hal: and he BOUGHT it!
    (laughter all around)
    Hal: well after tomorrow, nobody’s gonna remember we met. Now let’s ‘pillow talk’ about prince…

  121. Cosmo January 17th, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Cherington says wrist was bothering Crawford at the end of last season.

    ==========

    Friggen nitwit, should have told his player to get it done in November. Helps NY though so their tough luck. :lol:

  122. blake January 17th, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    “As I think the Sox will let Ellsbury go does anyone see the Yankees making a run at him?”

    He needs to show he can stay healthy and that the pop is for real but I love his swing

  123. Pat M. January 17th, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Crawford could be in for another tough season……And the news in Beantown just gets better for the Old Towne folks…..

  124. Triple Short of a Cycle January 17th, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    He needs to show he can stay healthy and that the pop is for real but I love his swing

    —————————————————————————

    Me too. He is a free agent after next season right? Bye Bye Swisher and hello Ellsbury

  125. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    It’s a simple fact that the DH position is not as valuable as any other position in your lineup. 600 at bats != 600 at-bats + defense.

    Wasting the perceived value of Montero’s bat in that role is just that, wasting it. If you can trade him to a team that doesn’t understand he can’t play the field yet, you DO IT. You don’t ask questions, you collect on that perceived value and move on.

    If you don’t believe they got back enough for him that’s one thing… and if that’s it then keep your complaints on topic!… but this nonsense about needing to have a permanent DH just needs to stop. Teams can and have succeeded either way with the right parts. A team looking at having A-Rod as a permanent DH in 3ish years should not be holding onto a player that projects to block that spot up. You cash in now, just like they did.

    Where are all of the great DH’ers that have come up since drug testing started? Oh, there aren’t any… because it’s not a role that teams are looking for anymore.

  126. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    He had the 8th lowest ERA in the league last year pitching in CBP

    22nd in wins DUH

  127. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    “You should look at the numbers Pineda put up. Dismissing the talent of Pineda is silly”

    6.75 era in july

    4.75 era in august

    4.00 era in sept

    genius maker-

    yeah i see your point.

    what could i have been thinking?

    silly me

  128. Cosmo January 17th, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Hal should strike NOW before the Darvish BS pans out. Pull the rug out from under Texas.

  129. Ys Guy January 17th, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    i think the sox will hang on to ells, i also think crawford will have a very good year this year.

    btw, did i just hear a one-year deal for hamels? could be his last in quakertown…

    francessa finally getting to the trade…

  130. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    ScottLauber
    Cherington says #RedSox only discussed one-year deal with Jacoby Ellsbury

    ———————-

    Jacoby isn’t gonna stick around the mental institution for any longer than he has to.. funny though, Sox fans must be pulling out their hair with Crawfords wrists acting up so soon in his monster deal and their team not being willing to extend their best outfielder….

    And to think, we seem to believe we’re the team with problems :) Lets all take a moment to light a candle for our fellow Red Sox fans.

  131. Ys Guy January 17th, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    cosmo, i think hal and cash and boras already worked out what they are going to do if texas signs darvish.

  132. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    randy – You mean a rookie pitcher has never gotten tired as the year went on? Strange, I could have sworn…

    2 pitchers had a better K% than Pineda last year. Clemens and Cone are the only 2 pitchers the Yankees have ever had, ever… that have averaged more than a K per inning for a full season.

    Pineda may be a pitching prospect… which we all know is volitile… but he’s probably the least volitile of them because he limits HR’s and strikes out a ton of guys. He doesn’t rely on his defense to save his butt all day.

  133. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    Dave Cameron’s rigid philosophy of DHs (and baseball in general) comes through pretty clear in his VMart/Pena tweet.

  134. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    Cosmo January 17th, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Hal should strike NOW before the Darvish BS pans out. Pull the rug out from under Texas.

    ************

    ;) Why the hell not? Texas pulled the rug out from under the Yankees when they swept in dangled Smoak for Cliff Lee after we already had a deal in place. Payback time? You decide.

  135. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    You all are focusing too much on Montero playing DH. It doesn’t matter what position he plays, he’s just a really rare hitter. Power, patience, high average, hits to all fields … there are just not many hitters that can do what he can do at the plate. That’s why he’s so valuable. Like CB posted earlier, there are very few truly “elite” hitters in baseball nowadays (classified as over .900 OPS). These types of hitters are extremely valuable, now more than ever.

  136. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    I can’t wait to hear Francesa’s take on players he knows nothing about!!

  137. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    Ys Guy January 17th, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    cosmo, i think hal and cash and boras already worked out what they are going to do if texas signs darvish.

    *********

    I agree!!!

  138. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    Not sure if it has been mentioned or not:

    Huge hit to the Detroit Tigers – Victor Martinez tore his ACL doing conditioning work and will miss the 2012 season.

  139. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    Patrick – Did you read the article Dave Cameron posted today on his projections for Montero… as a fan receiving that player I thought they were very telling. The expectations for his career around here are quite frankly… ludicrous.

  140. Pat M. January 17th, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    LGY & Jerkface…Did you really ask me for 10 better pitchers than Cole……There’s 2 already in his rotation to start with……And I just love it when Jerkface pulls a stat out of his behind because it suits his current stance….Usually era is a meaningless stat for the system analyst, so you’re the guy who drives a 10 year old BMW 3 series with the squeaky brakes with 200,000 miles on it so you can look the part………You’re a piece of work Face-Man, it must be a result of getting drilled in the head all the time playing dodge ball in PE

  141. Joe from Long Island January 17th, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    1. lgy – i hadn’t even thought of that, but you’re right. the tigers are going to go after pena. that may take him beyond what the yanks might be willing to pay. maybe matsui is coming back, after all. or, they will be more inclined to make a deal with some of this starting pitching. in any case, the price they will pay has gone up. supply and demand.

    2. it had been said that the red sox were only a couple of injuries away from a disaster of a season. well, they just had one. and, wrist injuries can have an effect on a hitter’s swing and power for quite a while. it seems that crawford can’t catch a break in boston. maybe he should have gone to laa.

  142. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    Clemens and Cone are the only 2 pitchers the Yankees have ever had, ever… that have averaged more than a K per inning for a full season.

    Only 2 STARTING pitchers.

  143. CB January 17th, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    One of the most remarkable organizational transformations over the past century was the growth and development of Toyota.

    They went from a company that started out making machinery for textiles to the world’s largest car company.

    One of the key principles they based their success on was that they refused to assess their own performance in relative terms. Their goal was never to be say 125% better than GM.

    Toyota not only engaged in competing with other car companies. They were constantly competing with themselves.

    Criteria for their own performance was set in absolute terms. The goal was to constantly improve everything they do at every spot in the organization. They set absolute targets for their own performance not only comparative ones.

    Even the process of goal setting – the perspective and point of view – was considered to be integral to their success. It set a standard for organizational performance and achievement that was relentless.

    That’s a how great organizations are developed.

  144. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    Patrick – Did you read the article Dave Cameron posted today on his projections for Montero… as a fan receiving that player I thought they were very telling. The expectations for his career around here are quite frankly… ludicrous.

    I did read it and it was ok but to be frank, Dave Cameron is a moron.

  145. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    patrick- yeah yeah… starting pitchers. doesn’t change my point… also like the 5th time it’s been repeated.

  146. Cosmo January 17th, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    What 10 pitchers are better than Hamels?

    ==========

    Verlander
    Halladay
    Kershaw
    King Felix
    Lincecum
    CC
    Lee
    J. Johnson
    Cain
    Lester / Grienke

  147. BoJo January 17th, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    PittsburghYankeeFan January 17th, 2012 at 3:27 pm
    Jason Bay for a young pitcher and AJ? Would the Mets bite?
    _________
    FYI–the Mets do bite…been that way since 1962.

  148. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    a moron? lol… ok I see you are not interested in honest dicussion about this at all.

  149. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    patrick – If you can only read his articles for his conclusions, and not understand the research… well… you just lost a few points in my book :(

  150. Triple Short of a Cycle January 17th, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    Pineda’s peripheral stats were similar in the second half but his ridiculous first half strand rate normalized I believe.

  151. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:10 pm
    Patrick – Did you read the article Dave Cameron posted today on his projections for Montero… as a fan receiving that player I thought they were very telling. The expectations for his career around here are quite frankly… ludicrous.

    I did read it and it was ok but to be frank, Dave Cameron is a moron.

    ————–

    I love Montero’s bat – but being realistic it’s more likely that Cameron’s right that he ends up in the Carlos Lee category of offensive player than Miguel Cabrera/Mike Piazza/Albert Pujols/Manny Ramirez group.

    As Schoenfeld points out – at 21 Cabrera was belting 33 homeruns in the majors; at 21 Montero was putting up nice numbers at AAA.

  152. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    Montero’s AAA numbers were not that great for a DH.

  153. Cosmo January 17th, 2012 at 4:14 pm

    Why the hell not? Texas pulled the rug out from under the Yankees when they swept in dangled Smoak for Cliff Lee after we already had a deal in place. Payback time? You decide.

    =========

    As in now. Will you please place the call ?

    (718) 293-4300

    TIA

  154. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 4:14 pm

    Cain, Lester, and Greinke better than Hamels?

    No.

  155. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    10 Starters better than Hamels:

    Halladay
    Lee
    Felix
    Haren
    CC
    Beckett
    Lester
    Greinke
    Linc
    Cain
    Price

    That’s more than ten…

  156. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    Bret – that’s because Montero only showed up for the second half of his AAA seasons… and as soon as they started pitching around him his power disappeared.

    A very similar thing will happen to him by the end of this season… once the entire league has a “book” on how to get him out. It’s at that point, that adjustment in 2013-2014 that will determine how successful Montero is… not what he looks like now.

    Anyone that says they can project him from 30 at bats in the majors is drinking too much koolaid.

  157. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    LGY & Jerkface…Did you really ask me for 10 better pitchers than Cole……There’s 2 already in his rotation to start with

    Ok so we’ve established that Cole is in the top 3. Where are your other 7? He is a young lefty that throws 200 innings and strikes people out while not walking people.

  158. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    Dave Cameron just compared VMart to Casey Kotchman on twitter.

  159. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:16 pm

    patrick – If you can only read his articles for his conclusions, and not understand the research… well… you just lost a few points in my book

    Where did I say I only read the conclusion? I read the article, it was ok. That’s not the only article I’ve read by Cameron though.

    http://www.ussmariner.com/2011.....ason-plan/

  160. Yankee Trader January 17th, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Pat M-

    Re: Cole Hamels worth

    My kingdom for a lefty starting pitcher or was it a horse?

  161. Erin January 17th, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Joba_62 Thank you for all the great tweets and i can’t begin to thank you all for your support throughout my career. Heres to a great 2012!!

    RobinsonCano It has been an honor for me to be able to supply my home town of San Pedro de Macoris with ambulances and school buses.

  162. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Halladay
    Lee
    Felix
    Haren – no
    CC
    Beckett – no
    Lester – no
    Greinke – no
    Linc
    Cain – no
    Price – no

  163. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Greinke has had 1 good season, are you both for reaaaaaaaaaaal

  164. Cosmo January 17th, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    What 10 pitchers are better than Hamels?

    ==========

    Verlander
    Halladay
    Kershaw
    King Felix
    Lincecum
    CC
    Lee
    J. Johnson
    J. Weaver
    Cain
    Lester
    Grienke

    Forgot a couple………………..

    Beckett
    Price
    Haren

  165. CB January 17th, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    However you want to group elite starters – Cole Hamels belongs in that group.

    You can argue about where he belongs but he’s way up there. No he’s not on the Doc, Lee, Felix, CC level – but those guys also aren’t available and are the great pitchers of this entire era.

    Cole Hamels is a tremendous pitcher. Its more than reasonable to consider him in the top 10 or just outside of it. At some point the players are so close together it becomes somewhat arbitrary.

  166. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:07 pm
    You all are focusing too much on Montero playing DH. It doesn’t matter what position he plays, he’s just a really rare hitter. Power, patience, high average, hits to all fields … there are just not many hitters that can do what he can do at the plate. That’s why he’s so valuable. Like CB posted earlier, there are very few truly “elite” hitters in baseball nowadays (classified as over .900 OPS). These types of hitters are extremely valuable, now more than ever.

    ————–

    Patrick –

    It does matter where he plays. If you need (as the Yankees do) to keep the DH spot open for Alex then you need your DH to be able to play somewhere in the field.

    The Yankees obviously don’t feel Montero’s bat would outweigh his liabilities behind the plate so that’s not an option.

    Look at it this way – if the Yankees absolutely believed that he is the second coming of Miguel Cabrera they wouldn’t have traded him. They would sooner have forced him to catch or play RF and left him there until Tex’s contract expired.

    Also, if they were that convinced about his future then he would have been up here when Martin got hurt and slumped in the second half. The bottom line is that the way the Yankees talked about Montero and the way they treated Montero paint two very different pictures.

  167. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Pat M,

    You think Michael Pineda is a better pitcher than Cole Hamels?

  168. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:20 pm

    LGY January 17th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
    Dave Cameron just compared VMart to Casey Kotchman on twitter.

    ————

    Maybe he meant that neither one of them will be big contributors in 2012.

  169. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 4:20 pm

    Just to leave a smile, courtesy of some of our heroes, especially Joe Theismann:

    “Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like like Norman Einstein.”

    Damned, Joe. You did go to Notre Dame. Did you attend class?

    http://web.yesnetwork.com/phot.....d=26366818

  170. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    Chip,

    Well obviously I don’t share the Yankees’ opinion of Montero because I wouldn’t have traded him and they did.

  171. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    Verlander
    Halladay
    Kershaw
    King Felix
    Lincecum
    CC
    Lee
    J. Johnson – no
    J. Weaver – no
    Cain – no
    Lester – no
    Grienke – no

    Forgot a couple………………..

    Beckett – no
    Price – no
    Haren – no

  172. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    JOSH BECKETT?

    Are you guys familiar with Cole Hamels?

  173. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    ” You mean a rookie pitcher has never gotten tired as the year went on? Strange, ”

    he got tired in july?

    i don’t think so.

    i think he’s just not that good.

    he’s going to get hammered by lefties in yankee stadium.

  174. Nick in SF January 17th, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    I don’t think you can conclusively say that Yu Darvish will be a better MLB pitcher than Cole Hamels.

    Plus, I like the way Hamels delivered his line in that commercial.

    “Who are you?”

  175. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    Are you guys familiar with Cole Hamels?

    I believe Cosmo and Pat M are the west coast, which explains why they have never seen him pitch.

  176. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    I suspect that steroid use is to blame for Martinez’ and Crawford’s injuries. It’s a scientific fact that steroids make your body break down. I learned that on here.

  177. Pat M. January 17th, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    The point is not if Cole Hamels is a top 10 pitcher or even a top 15….He’s very good and good pitching is the games most valued commodity…..And that is the bottom line and that’s the point that has been rebuffed here for the past few days…….

  178. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:22 pm
    Chip,

    Well obviously I don’t share the Yankees’ opinion of Montero because I wouldn’t have traded him and they did.

    ——————

    No offense – but I will take the opinions of the guys who see him every day over the opinion of the fan any day.

  179. UnKnown January 17th, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    I wish El Chato batted from the left side. Would help his case as helping out from the DH position this year.

  180. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    I’m really hoping when Cosmo says Beckett they mean 2003 Beckett.. or even 2004-2006 Beckett.. but you can’t possibly mean 2012 Beckett is better than 2012 Cole Hamels. I don’t even know anything about anything but I know that’s a kind of a leap..

  181. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:22 pm
    Verlander
    Halladay
    Kershaw
    King Felix
    Lincecum
    CC
    Lee
    J. Johnson – no
    J. Weaver – no
    Cain – no
    Lester – no
    Grienke – no

    Forgot a couple………………..

    Beckett – no
    Price – no
    Haren – no

    ————-

    In your opinion…which means diddly poop.

  182. pkyankfan69 January 17th, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    I know the Yanks say they don’t have the money but with Montero now gone 2 years @ 20 Mill sounds like a pretty good deal for Big Sloppy right now.

  183. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    No offense – but I will take the opinions of the guys who see him every day over the opinion of the fan any day.

    Then why discuss anything? Just let the Yankees do what they do and accept it. You sound like trisha right now, no offense to her. Have you ever disagreed with a move the Yankees have done? You’ve never criticized them?

  184. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    In my opinion – which also means diddly poop:

    Price, Haren, Cain, Jeff Weaver and John Lester are at least as good, if not better than Cole Hamels.

  185. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    In your opinion…which means diddly poop.

    You said Zach Greinke is better than Cole Hamels, get out of here stalker.

  186. Pat M. January 17th, 2012 at 4:29 pm

    Face besides being a person who people like to dislike, your an idiot at times…….Keep in mind, I’m not in bed after the East Coast games as they are the early games……I get to see double headers every night while you have a bed time curfew….

  187. Ys Guy January 17th, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    so mike says what he’s heard is that the Mariner’s held out for a long time to get Nova in the trade instead of Noesi. i was figuring the M’s wanted Nova too but the Yankees wouldn’t give him up.

  188. blake January 17th, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    Hamels is a top 10 guy….or very close to that. And he’s left handed.

  189. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    .Keep in mind, I’m not in bed after the East Coast games as they are the early games

    But don’t the east coast games interfere with you creeping around Santa Monica High? I can see how you wouldnt have time to watch Cole Hamel’s games when you’re too busy peeping at teens

  190. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    I think the point is that pitchers are generally overpaid. They can make 20+ million dollars for 30 games. The average ones can get 5 year deals. Scrubs can even get multiyear deals.

  191. The Genius Maker January 17th, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    The DH is not a valueless position. It is only an offensive position so it has less value than a fielding position as well. Having good production is obviously better than having lesser production no matter how you slice it. Having an older lineup having the DH to give them a little rest is a good idea, but when you have to play guys who have a sub .700 OPS you are hurting your offense a lot.

  192. Ys Guy January 17th, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    i didn’t see alot of WS MVP’s on that list. I believe it was one.

  193. pkyankfan69 January 17th, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    # Ys Guy January 17th, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    so mike says what he’s heard is that the Mariner’s held out for a long time to get Nova in the trade instead of Noesi. i was figuring the M’s wanted Nova too but the Yankees wouldn’t give him up.
    —————————

    Did you hear if Tuck was going to be on @ 5 today???

  194. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:28 pm
    No offense – but I will take the opinions of the guys who see him every day over the opinion of the fan any day.

    Then why discuss anything? Just let the Yankees do what they do and accept it. You sound like trisha right now, no offense to her. Have you ever disagreed with a move the Yankees have done? You’ve never criticized them?

    ———–

    Of course I’ve disagreed with their moves, but at the end of the day it comes back to the simple fact that they know vastly more about what they’re doing than we do. I thought that trading for Randy Johnson instead of signing Carlos Beltran was an exceedingly stupid move and I thought giving up Jose Tabata in the Nady/Marte deal was bone headed too.

    So sure, complain about it for a little while, get it off your chest, but be willing to accept the fact that while you may see all of Montero’s pretty numbers in the minors, the Yankees have, you know – paid professionals – to evaluate him and determine whether or not he would, in the long term, be more valuable to the team than Pineda.

  195. CB January 17th, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    Crawford’s injury is related to cartilage in his wrist.

    No word on the extent of it. But that’s pretty concerning long term. If it was a ligament tear or something similar then it could be fixed. It would take a while to heal but you could feel ok that it would likely heal.

    If he’s having problems with cartilage – that could set him up or predispose him to having recurrent or even chronic problems in that wrist.

    Very bad news given that he’s only completed one year of that contract.

  196. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    Having an older lineup having the DH to give them a little rest is a good idea, but when you have to play guys who have a sub .700 OPS you are hurting your offense a lot.

    Exactly. Having Eduordo Nunez or Andruw Jones batting vs RHP is not a virtue.

  197. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    By the way – I can promise you two things:

    1. In Seattle they’re wondering how they gave up Pineda for a minor league hitter without a position and praying that he’s not the second coming of Jeff Clement

    2. In Boston they’re up in arms over Gammons’ report that the Mariners wanted Ellsbury for Pineda and here the Yankees got him for a “overhyped DH”

  198. blake January 17th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    Some Sawks fan just called up the radio and said the Sawks should just put Lavaaaanaway in RF….lol

  199. Bret The Hitman January 17th, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    With a bench player like Eduardo Nunez, I see nothing wrong with Jeter and Arod getting full days off instead of DH’ing. With Nunez, the DH spot is wide open in my opinion. I think the Yankees like Nunez and they want to give him AB’s but they can do that without the DH.

  200. Yankee Trader January 17th, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Koufax
    Gibson
    Spahn
    Marichal
    Drysdale
    Ford
    Guidry
    Seaver
    Ryan
    Maddox

    10 better than Hamels. No contest :)

  201. Yank 97 January 17th, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    We’ll see how valueless the DH position is in a couple of years when Jeter is OPSing in the .600s, Tex is in the .700s and hitting .240, ARod continues to miss half a season worth of games while hitting for limited power, Russel Munson or his replacement is Joe Girardi-esque, they get nothing from LF, etc.

    Would sure be nice to have a young power hitter with immense bat speed OPSing .900 behind Cano.

  202. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Pat M

    Maybe you need to watch a little more video on Cole Hamels.

    Start here: http://philadelphia.phillies.m.....8;c_id=mlb

  203. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Chip you just gave two examples of mistakes the Yankees have made thus invalidating your point. We have every right to criticize moves they make, the Yankees are not always right!

    Being a paid profession does not equal a job well done. Come on dude get real

  204. blake January 17th, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    “2. In Boston they’re up in arms over Gammons’ report that the Mariners wanted Ellsbury for Pineda and here the Yankees got him for a “overhyped DH”

    Jack Z isn’t in the Theo frat of GMs

  205. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:33 pm
    Having an older lineup having the DH to give them a little rest is a good idea, but when you have to play guys who have a sub .700 OPS you are hurting your offense a lot.

    Exactly. Having Eduordo Nunez or Andruw Jones batting vs RHP is not a virtue.

    ————

    That probably won’t be the case – sure it will happen from time to time, but the roster’s not complete yet – could be Chavez, could be Pena – or maybe it could be Nunez – who knows. Bottom line is that the Yankees will not be hurting for offense.

    Remember you’re talking about a lineup that had Posada sucking wind at DH for most of the season and still had the second best offense in the league.

  206. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Then why discuss anything? Just let the Yankees do what they do and accept it.

    Patrick – There is a monumental difference between disagreeing with the moves they make and disagreeing with their evaluation of a player… and someone expecting their “personal evaluation” to be taken as evidence over the entire team full of coaches, trainers and what not that have been watching Montero his entire career.

    I go to plenty of games every year, I don’t consider myself a talent scout because of this fact. If I did, I would probably try to go do that as my career and not be posting on here… because that has to be better than my job now.

  207. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    CB January 17th, 2012 at 4:32 pm
    Crawford’s injury is related to cartilage in his wrist.

    No word on the extent of it. But that’s pretty concerning long term. If it was a ligament tear or something similar then it could be fixed. It would take a while to heal but you could feel ok that it would likely heal.

    If he’s having problems with cartilage – that could set him up or predispose him to having recurrent or even chronic problems in that wrist.

    Very bad news given that he’s only completed one year of that contract.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    I wonder if that injury happened on the play in left field on the non-catch. Looked a lot like the hand bent back like matsui’s years back.

  208. Eroc January 17th, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    so mike says what he’s heard is that the Mariner’s held out for a long time to get Nova in the trade instead of Noesi. i was figuring the M’s wanted Nova too but the Yankees wouldn’t give him up.

    ————–

    Makes sense.

    Honestly, Mike is not as enthusiastic about the deal as I thought he’d be. Keeps mentioning how the Yankees said he was going to be an all-star hitter and this deal is still wait and see and Campos is the one the Yankees are talking up now in the deal, etc.

  209. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:36 pm
    Chip you just gave two examples of mistakes the Yankees have made thus invalidating your point. We have every right to criticize moves they make, the Yankees are not always right!

    Being a paid profession does not equal a job well done. Come on dude get real

    ————-

    Yes, I realize that those trades didn’t work out for the Yankees – as did the nontrades where they could have gotten Dan Haren – but the point remains they’re not going to undo the deal because you’re not happy about it. So move on.

    Comfort yourself in the knowledge that the only person in all of baseball who doesn’t think the Yankees made a good deal is Bobby friggin Valentine.

  210. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    I wonder if that injury happened on the play in left field on the non-catch.

    Talk about adding insult to injury.. or rather the other way around :)

  211. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Remember you’re talking about a lineup that had Posada sucking wind at DH for most of the season and still had the second best offense in the league.

    This doesnt excuse stagnation. I want them to crush teams on all facets of the game. Slumming it with the lessers and their .700 OPS DHs doesn’t make the Yankees better or smarter or more flexible. It just means they are settling.

  212. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Top ten pitchers in no particular order

    Hamels
    CC
    Lee
    Halladay
    Verlander
    Kershaw
    Felix
    Lincecum
    Weaver
    Haren

  213. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    “2. In Boston they’re up in arms over Gammons’ report that the Mariners wanted Ellsbury for Pineda and here the Yankees got him for a “overhyped DH””

    Yeah but people from Boston are stupid and short sighted (I’m not one for generalizations) – Ellsbury would have only been under M’s control for another season or two(?). Would the M’s have done Pineda for Ellsbury straight up? I sincerely doubt it and if they would I’d be a lot more nervous about why they were so willing to move Pineda for a CF that won’t be cost controlled long-term.

  214. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    For the record, none of my plans for the DH that have been discussed involve only getting ~.700 OPS production out of the position.

  215. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    Yes, I realize that those trades didn’t work out for the Yankees – as did the nontrades where they could have gotten Dan Haren – but the point remains they’re not going to undo the deal because you’re not happy about it. So move on.

    Comfort yourself in the knowledge that the only person in all of baseball who doesn’t think the Yankees made a good deal is Bobby friggin Valentine.

    Sorry Chip but you aren’t the one that dictates how long we discuss a topic. If you don’t like it, stop reading. The Yankees will do nothing based on what is said on this blog so why don’t we all just stop commenting altogether?

    I’m not even that unhappy about this deal, it’s just not a move I think should have been made. I’m happy we have a pitcher like Pineda, he’s really damn good. I’d just prefer to have Montero

  216. CB January 17th, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    Last year at this time I said I was happy that the Sox had signed Crawford. They have the money. They are going to spend it. If it wasn’t Crawford they would spend in on someone else.

    All you can hope is that they spend the money unwisely.

    Two years ago I remember how the Sox were actually getting pats on the back for being such tough, shrewd negotiators with Boras when it came to Matt Holliday.

    They made him a one time take it or leave it 85M offer. Holliday turned it down. So the Sox immediately just switched the money over the John Lackey. If they weren’t going to pick up “wins” by offense they would get them through their vaunted “run prevention” strategy.

    Passing on Holliday when the Sox had the money and a major need only to give that money to Lackey and then go on to compound that awful mistake by paying Crawford as if he were a superstar is as just an unbelievably disastrous chain of decision making.

    Players aren’t completely fungible.

  217. Pat M. January 17th, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    LGY….I know who Cole Hamels is well before his rise in 2008….In fact he pitched vs. Fielder in a Pony travel tournament in San Diego in 1998, and Fielder took him deep some 400 feet away….Keep in mind when he was 22 he missed most of his AA season because of an elbow injury….While Pineda at 22 was pitching in the All-Star game….I’m in no way saying Pineda is better but he’s much younger and 120 million dollars cheaper…..Are you listening Yu Jerkface Darvish……

  218. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    Patrick –

    ID makes a great point. If you want to voice your opinion that’s fine – ’tis the right of every man by woman borne. But using your opinion as proof that it’s a bad deal is not compelling in any way shape or form.

    Why would those of us here value your evaluation of Montero v. Pineda more than the evaluation of Brian Cashman and his scouts?

  219. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Maybe Lester instead of Haren.

    That last spot was tough.

  220. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Keep in mind when he was 22 he missed most of his AA season because of an elbow injury….While Pineda at 22 was pitching in the All-Star game

    Keep in mind when Pineda was 19 he missed most of his AA season because of an elbow injury.

  221. The Genius Maker January 17th, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    “You should look at the numbers Pineda put up. Dismissing the talent of Pineda is silly”

    6.75 era in july

    4.75 era in august

    4.00 era in sept

    genius maker-

    yeah i see your point.

    what could i have been thinking?

    silly me
    *************

    Really? That is your response? You don’t even take into consideration his great stuff, the fact he is 22, or the stellar performance for the first half of the year where his ERA was 3.03? Taking his year into account; he finished with an OPS against of .621 (CC’s was .666) and an ERA of 3.74. Montero did great in his 69 AB’s (.996 OPS), but in the minors for most of the year only put up an OPS of .814. Could he be a .900 OPS guy? Sure, but dismissing how great the stuff is for Pineda and how young he is and also how well he pitched in his FIRST year is silly. Saying it was the worst trade you can ever remember is even more hyperbole.

    I was excited to see Montero, but I think this is a good trade for the Yanks!

  222. blake January 17th, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    LGY,

    Id probably do Lester there…..but that’s very close IMO.

  223. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    Why would those of us here value your evaluation of Montero v. Pineda more than the evaluation of Brian Cashman and his scouts?

    Where have I said that you should value my evaluation more than Cashman’s? Are you high?

  224. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:40 pm
    Yes, I realize that those trades didn’t work out for the Yankees – as did the nontrades where they could have gotten Dan Haren – but the point remains they’re not going to undo the deal because you’re not happy about it. So move on.

    Comfort yourself in the knowledge that the only person in all of baseball who doesn’t think the Yankees made a good deal is Bobby friggin Valentine.

    Sorry Chip but you aren’t the one that dictates how long we discuss a topic. If you don’t like it, stop reading. The Yankees will do nothing based on what is said on this blog so why don’t we all just stop commenting altogether?

    I’m not even that unhappy about this deal, it’s just not a move I think should have been made. I’m happy we have a pitcher like Pineda, he’s really damn good. I’d just prefer to have Montero

    —————

    That’s fine – as I said – you’re entitled to your opinion as am I as is everyone else – except GB – he needs to be sedated – but there is a lot of hand wringing going on and I can get that after the first day, but by now we should have moved on no? How’s it go? Give me the strength to change the things I can, the patience to accept the things I can’t and the wisdom to know the difference…be wise Patrick…be wise.

  225. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    For the record, none of my plans for the DH that have been discussed involve only getting ~.700 OPS production out of the position.

    Ah right your plan calls for plucking a .900 OPS bat out of thin air and calling it a job well done! :)

    I hope Pena’s price drops or the Yankees go big on Fielder. I don’t see Chavez hitting or staying healthy, he was fun for spring training and until he got hurt but I’m done with that guy. Maybe an interesting trade to help fix the DH.

  226. Eroc January 17th, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Hamels is better than Weaver or Haren, IMO.

    Better stuff, left-handed, done it in a small ballpark/big market

    Look at his playoff numbers while you’re at it. Won 4 games in the playoffs and a NLCS/WS MVP at a younger age than Phil Hughes is now. In 9 postseason starts (aside from the 09 season when he sucked the whole season), he has only given up more than 3 runs in a playoff game TWICE. 7/9 starts he has given up 2 runs or less.

    People are really underestimating Hamels to not put him top 10. Guy

  227. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Give me the strength to change the things I can, the patience to accept the things I can’t and the wisdom to know the difference…be wise Patrick…be wise.

    What. This isn’t AA… seriously, are you high?

  228. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
    Why would those of us here value your evaluation of Montero v. Pineda more than the evaluation of Brian Cashman and his scouts?

    Where have I said that you should value my evaluation more than Cashman’s? Are you high?

    ——-

    Well that seems to be your only argument here as far as I can tell. That you wouldn’t have done the deal and that in your opinion it doesn’t matter where Montero plays on the field?

    Again, that’s fine, but come with something more compelling:

    “Here’s a list of young, big time hitting prospects who were traded for young established pitchers and how wrong they’ve gone…”

    Stuff like that.

  229. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    “Why would those of us here value your evaluation of Montero v. Pineda more than the evaluation of Brian Cashman and his scouts?”

    I think we just found a solution… someone get Brian Cashman a Lohud handle stat!!

  230. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    jerkface – No silly, don’t change what my plan actually is in a pathetic attempt to make your point more valid.

    My plan doesn’t revolve around paying a DH $20mil a year… ever. Keeping Montero at the absurd level of production that you guys are assuming, $20mil+ per season for a player that can’t play the field was a very real possibility, he would have had to be in double digit millions before he ever gets out of arbitration. You don’t see how that limits you in any way? That’s really… kind of amazing.

  231. lounge lizard January 17th, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    About Pineda “getting tired”. Those of you with the mlb.tv archive can check this out.

    In his next to last start of the season, he shows no sign of fatigue. He goes through the eighth inning and hits 96 mph on his last pitch (number 101 for the game).

    Then he gets ten days rest before his last start (at Minnesota). In the first inning of that start, his velocity is down so dramatically (not even getting to 90 mph on his fastball) that the Twins “throwdown” commentator (Ron Coomer) asks for some camera time to comment on it as play is going on. Then the booth announcers join in.

    The direct quote from Coomer: “If I were the Seattle Mariners, I would be concerned about this.”

    Pineda made it through four innings and 81 pitches for his season wrap-up.

    It may well be just a blip but it’s a somewhat odd sequence of events not consistent with a straightforward “creeping fatigue” scenario.

  232. 28 RINGS January 17th, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    “Why would those of us here value your evaluation of Montero v. Pineda more than the evaluation of Brian Cashman and his scouts?”

    As if Cashman has some impeccable track record of finding/developing pitching.

  233. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:46 pm
    Give me the strength to change the things I can, the patience to accept the things I can’t and the wisdom to know the difference…be wise Patrick…be wise.

    What. This isn’t AA… seriously, are you high?

    ———-

    I’m not – but I would think it could be applicaple in other venues than AA right? If not, it is quite the unitasker of prayers.

  234. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 4:46 pm
    “Why would those of us here value your evaluation of Montero v. Pineda more than the evaluation of Brian Cashman and his scouts?”

    I think we just found a solution… someone get Brian Cashman a Lohud handle stat!!

    ————–

    Perhaps they have Shame…perhaps he’s right now lurking whilst on the toilet thinking “oh lord what have I done….”

  235. Pat M. January 17th, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    Face……You keep pointing out this .900 OPS for Montero, how did you come up with this number…

  236. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    Ok Chip, whatever man.

    I’m sorry you don’t like my posting.

  237. blake January 17th, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    The first time Pineda plants a 99 mph heater on Youkalis’s buttocks we will all feel better I think.

    Hal can replace Montero and make the Yankees the clear best team in baseball with one check.

  238. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    the dude had a 5.12 era in the second half.

    he’s a two pitch pitcher.

    he was pitching in an easy park for pitchers to break into the majors.

    safeco totally distorts his numbers.

    when lefties start hammering balls into the short right field seats is he going to challenge them the way he did in safeco with his slider and fastball.

    it’s so easy to guess when a pitcher only has two pitches.

  239. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Perhaps they have Shame

    I dunno, I posted “One of these days Cashman is going to wake up and realize he’s relying on Garcia/Burnett/Hughes/Nova” and 6 hours later we had 2 new pitchers… :)

  240. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:49 pm
    Ok Chip, whatever man.

    I’m sorry you don’t like my posting.

    ————

    Didn’t say I didn’t like it. Just that I don’t agree with it. Don’t take it personally

  241. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    randy – safeco totally distorts his numbers. Was safeco making him strike guys out at a better clip than every pitcher in baseball not named Verlander or Morrow?

  242. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    “….there is a lot of hand wringing going on and I can get that after the first day, but by now we should have moved on no?”

    Chip – How much time did we spend on Yu Darvish, a player that in all likelihood was never even on the Yankees radar? Lol, sometimes I swear its like you guys just started coming to this blog or something…

    If there’s a dead horse, this group will beat it until it returns as a zombie and then kill it again and again. That’s what we do here lol. And let me tell you something – its a hell of a lot better than paying attention to my job.

  243. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    jerkface – No silly, don’t change what my plan actually is in a pathetic attempt to make your point more valid.

    Your plan is to assemble a .900 OPS DH cheap using a platoon. This will often not be possible. If you have a chance to get a REAL .900 OPS player you should do it. Because they are scarce.

  244. 28 RINGS January 17th, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    lizard,

    He can only get by on 2 pitches for so long. He’s going to have to develop that 3rd pitch to become a complete pitcher. He ain’t getting through a Boston or Toronto lineup throwing a straight 95 MPH fastball and hard slider 3 times.

    Though considering our luck with getting our guys to learn/perfect change-ups, I’d be worried.

    At this point, Pineda is no different than a lot of pitchers. He has 2 very good pitches.

  245. kd January 17th, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    cb,

    the ligament issue is serious. nomar had a similar issue and was never quite the hitter afterwards. although i;ve always been suspicious of how many times nomar got injections, crawford is in for a long recovery period. he wasn’t a power guy to begin with. now he’ll just be a singles hitter.

    also, the crawford contract is a problem going forward for the sox. not just in terms of present day costs, it’s the future expectation. i seriously doubt that ellsbury signs for one penny less than crawford. that’s a lot to pay for the same skill set in the outfield.

  246. Best To Ever Do It January 17th, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    Eroc January 17th, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    so mike says what he’s heard is that the Mariner’s held out for a long time to get Nova in the trade instead of Noesi. i was figuring the M’s wanted Nova too but the Yankees wouldn’t give him up.

    ————–

    Makes sense.

    Honestly, Mike is not as enthusiastic about the deal as I thought he’d be. Keeps mentioning how the Yankees said he was going to be an all-star hitter and this deal is still wait and see and Campos is the one the Yankees are talking up now in the deal, etc.

    —————-

    Yea I thought he would be more excited about it. All last yr he said Montero would get traded and now that he is Mike seems ehhhh on it

  247. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    Let’s try this – be honest now people, I’m measuring noses here…

    If the Yankees had brought Pineda up through the system and he put together the year he did last year and on Friday the team announced that they were trading him and a top pitching prospect for a great hitting prospect that no one believes has a position other than DH and a middle reliever who might become a good mid to back rotation starter…how would you have felt?

  248. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    Face……You keep pointing out this .900 OPS for Montero, how did you come up with this number…

    Well lets see, he had a .900 OPS in the majors… oh bingo! You don’t even want me to list his playoff OPS. The only knock on Montero is his position. No one knocks his bat. You think Pineda is going to dominate the entire majors for the next 10 years? Less likely than Montero OPSing .900 for the majority of the decade.

  249. blake January 17th, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    Pineda’s slider is very very good……and he’s got a great mentor there with CC. When you can throw 98 with command and have a wipeout slider the the CU doesn’t determine if you’ll be successful…..it determines if you become a #1 IMO. Its easier to learn a CU than it is to have a slider like that.

  250. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    If there’s a dead horse, this group will beat it

    —————-

    Well that’s because beating a live horse can get you kicked in the junk.

  251. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Perhaps they have Shame

    I dunno, I posted “One of these days Cashman is going to wake up and realize he’s relying on Garcia/Burnett/Hughes/Nova” and 6 hours later we had 2 new pitchers… :)

    —————-

    What if Cashman uses the CashmanSUX handle??? Dun dun dunnnnnnnnn….

  252. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    Didn’t say I didn’t like it. Just that I don’t agree with it. Don’t take it personally

    Haha you basically just told me to stop posting because this topic is played out and that my opinion doesn’t matter because the Yankees are paid professionals.

  253. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    jerkface – Fine, I can accept that statement. After I have 5 good starters locked up for years, and 8 good position players, then I will take that chance. Until then, my DH is the last of my concerns.

  254. Duh Innings January 17th, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    MY REPLIES IN CAPS LIKE THIS.

    randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    “People may not want to keep hearing this, but the reason this trade is hard to take is that Montero’s bat is as close to a given as it gets. ”

    HOW SO? IF IT WAS A GIVEN HOW COME THE YANKS OFFERED HIM TO SEATTLE TWICE (ONCE FOR CLIFF LEE, AGAIN FOR MICHAEL PINEDA) AND HE JUST SUITED UP IN A YANKEE UNIFORM AFTER OVER TWO YEARS OF TALK ABOUT HIM? WHY DIDN’T THE YANKS JUST MAKE HIM THE DH TO START 2011? HE MAKES THE ROOKIE MINIMUM AND OFFSETS POSADA’S $13.1M FOR 2011.

    yankeefeminista-

    this is the basic truth of this whole debacle of trading montero.

    pineda probably has like 1/2 the chance of a 15 year quality career as montero.

    IF PINEDA HELPS THE YANKS WIN AT LEAST ONE WORLD SERIES IN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS THEY HAVE HIM UNDER CONTROL, I COULD GIVE A FLYING #@$% WHAT MONTERO DOES WITH SEATTLE WHO WILL PROBABLY LOSE KING FELIX WAY BEFORE THE FIVE YEARS ARE UP AND BE THE WEST COAST VERSION OF THE EXPOS MINUS THE BRIMMING MINOR-LEAGUE TALENT. BOTTOM LINE IS MONTERO ISN’T WINNING $#% WITH SEATTLE ESP. WHEN (AND I DO SAY WHEN) KING FELIX IS TRADED OR SIGNS ELSEWHERE (POSSIBLY WITH THE YANKS) SO WHO CARES WHAT HE DOES WITH THEM?

    CB always raises the level of the conversation and his position the way i understand his position is that the yankees traded a lower risk player in montero for a higher risk player in pineda.

    they in effect traded for more risk.

    i don’t see how anyone can see it any other way.

    I CAN. JUST BECAUSE PINEDA’S A PITCHER DOESN’T MEAN HE HAS LESS OF A CHANCE TO HAVE A 15-YEAR CAREER THAN MONTERO.

    i think it’s the worse trade i’ve seen the yankees do in my lifetime .and that’s a long time.

    YOU OBVIOUSLY MUST’VE BEEN IN A COMA DURING BUHNER FOR PHELPS, LEITER FOR BARFIELD, DRABEK FOR RHODEN, ARMAS JR. FOR STANLEY II WHERE BOSTON USED ARMAS JR TO GET PEDRO, ALL TRULY AWFUL TRADES. IMAGINE IF WE KEPT BUHNER, LEITER AND DRABEK, AND USED ARMAS JR TO GET PEDRO.

    PINEDA > ALL 2012 YANKEE STARTING PITCHERS SAVE CC INCLUDING NOVA, AND I LIKE NOVA. HE’S ALSO BETTER THAN ALL RED SOX STARTERS SAVE LESTER WHO HE’S NOT FAR BEHIND FROM SURPASSING.

    i came into the world with my mother yelling at my father for listening on the car radio to dimaggio destroy the red sox in the famous 4th of july series in the summer of ’49 as he drove us to the hospital for me to be delivered. that’s a lot of years rooting for the yankees.

    LOL.

    this is the worst yankee trade since Peterson and Kekich traded wives.

    AND IF HUGHES CONTINUED TO SUCK, GARCIA AND NOVA DIDN’T REPEAT OR TOP HIS 2011, BURNETT DID, AND MONTERO WAS BATTING .186 THROUGH MAY, YOU’D BE THE FIRST ONE TO SCREAM FOR PINEDA IF HE WAS MADE AVAILABLE BUT GUESS WHAT? YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP SOMETHING TO GET SOMETHING, AND PINEDA IS SOMETHING ALRIGHT. SO IS MONTERO. HENCE MONTERO FOR PINEDA THE NEXT AMERICAN LEAGUE ACE OR #2, AND NO ONE COMES CLOSE TO HIM.

    i don’t hope pineda fails. it’s just that he’s a major risk.

    HOW SO? CUZ HE’S A PITCHER?

    montero was as sure a thing as you get in baseball.

    PLEASE. HE HAD A NICE CUP OF COFFEE SEPTEMBER CALLUP. LET’S SEE HIM DO WHAT HE DID X 10 IN A PATHETIC LINEUP WITH A FADING ICHIRO WHO WON’T PROTECT HIM AND SMOAK WHO MAY NOT PROTECT HIM CUZ HE NEEDS PROTECTING HIMSELF.

    montero did the job on the big stage. the kid was clutch. he was a yankee.

    HE BARELY DID A JOB.

  255. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    and hard slider 3 times.

    Its actually a soft slider, and most scouts considered it to not be a plus pitch pre-2011 which I found interesting. Its 84 mph.

  256. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    “I think we just found a solution… someone get Brian Cashman a Lohud handle stat!!”

    jerkface is taken

    dumbass is free :)

  257. blake January 17th, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    “At this point, Pineda is no different than a lot of pitchers. He has 2 very good pitches.”

    There are very few guys with two pitches as good as his two pithes are…..and he throws strikes.

  258. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    blake – He’ll need the changeup to get lefties out more consistantly. It may determine if he becomes a top10 pitcher in baseball… but not a top 50 pitcher.

  259. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    jerkface – Fine, I can accept that statement. After I have 5 good starters locked up for years, and 8 good position players, then I will take that chance. Until then, my DH is the last of my concerns.

    Having 5 and 8 good players locked up isn’t possible probably. If you are questing for this white whale and ignore help at the DH spot along the way then I think its a flawed plan. The DH is not an afterthought, or shouldn’t be. Until baseball gets rid of it the team should plan on utilizing it to its maximum potential.

  260. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    Duh Innings – Wow if you didn’t write that in all caps, people might have read it.

  261. Yankee Trader January 17th, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Have the 4 players passed their physicals today?

  262. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:53 pm
    Face……You keep pointing out this .900 OPS for Montero, how did you come up with this number…

    Well lets see, he had a .900 OPS in the majors… oh bingo! You don’t even want me to list his playoff OPS. The only knock on Montero is his position. No one knocks his bat. You think Pineda is going to dominate the entire majors for the next 10 years? Less likely than Montero OPSing .900 for the majority of the decade.
    ———-

    Shane Spencer’s OPS after his first month in the bigs was 1.32

  263. Eroc January 17th, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    “Yea I thought he would be more excited about it. All last yr he said Montero would get traded and now that he is Mike seems ehhhh on it”

    yeah I know, he always mentioned that Montero would get traded for a “big pitcher”

    I think he is just being rational and cautious – this deal caries a lot of risk and could turn out good or bad, for either side. It’s not like the Granderson trade where all we lost was Kennedy who was not in our long term plans anyway or even Vazquez (though that turned into a disaster giving up Viz but at the time, it looked good).

    This deal, at the present time, I think most NYY fans are nervous about but hoping for the best.

  264. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    blake – He’ll need the changeup to get lefties out more consistantly. It may determine if he becomes a top10 pitcher in baseball… but not a top 50 pitcher.

    ——————

    Hooray for lists!

  265. Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 4:54 pm
    Didn’t say I didn’t like it. Just that I don’t agree with it. Don’t take it personally

    Haha you basically just told me to stop posting because this topic is played out and that my opinion doesn’t matter because the Yankees are paid professionals.

    ———-

    I never said stop posting and I never said your opinion doesn’t matter.

    I suggested that if you disagreed with the trade presenting reasons other than your evaluation of the two players would make your argument more compelling.

  266. Best To Ever Do It January 17th, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    28 RINGS January 17th, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    “Why would those of us here value your evaluation of Montero v. Pineda more than the evaluation of Brian Cashman and his scouts?”

    As if Cashman has some impeccable track record of finding/developing pitching.

    ——————–

    Exactly let’s not act liking he’s been pumping out aces matter not even aces he hasn’t even produced a consistent middle of the rotation guy.

  267. Eroc January 17th, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    Pineda is also a flyball RH pitcher… which is pretty much the worst type of pitcher to bring into the AL East/NYS.

    Like others have said, he has to get that 3rd pitch down.

  268. The Genius Maker January 17th, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    the dude had a 5.12 era in the second half.

    he’s a two pitch pitcher.

    he was pitching in an easy park for pitchers to break into the majors.

    safeco totally distorts his numbers.

    when lefties start hammering balls into the short right field seats is he going to challenge them the way he did in safeco with his slider and fastball.

    it’s so easy to guess when a pitcher only has two pitches.
    ********

    Yeah, Rivera has one. Look I am not comparing him to Rivera, but you can’t teach 97 with some movement. Do you really think the guy is a 5 ERA guy? His OPS against was .688 in the 2nd half! He was VERY unlucky to allow so many earned runs. a .688 OPS against is pretty good and this was his first full year for crying out loud. people have been making excuses for Phil Hughes and he is over 2 years older than Pineda. Randy you are looking ro find something wrong with the guy because you like Montero. The trade you now feel is the worst you have ever seen will actually turn out to be a good one and you will think your comment was silly in a year or 2.

  269. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    jerkface – If I can use a “DH” to maximize any of those other 13 positions I will. Those 13 positions contribute a larger percentage to winning the game. The 5 starters are obvious, one of the 5 determines the outcome of basically every single game… THe 8 position players also play defense, which makes them more important thant he DH.

    I’m not going to completely disregard it and have my team suffer for it, quite the contrary… it’s just not an area where I am focusing resources or holding onto young players to fill. I will fill the more important areas of need first. I will never, ever end up with a $20mil DH on my team unless every other position on my team is filled perfectly.

  270. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    HOW SO? CUZ HE’S A PITCHER?

    Bust rate for position players: 62.9%, Success 37.1%, SUPERIOR players: 22%
    Bust rate for pitchers: 77.4%, Success 22.6%, Superior 10%

    Basically its much harder for a pitcher to succeed because everything works against them. The act of pitching, the difficulty involved, the ability to simply lose it.

  271. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    “Shane Spencer’s OPS after his first month in the bigs was 1.32″

    I wanna make one of those videos like that kid did when Britney Spears was having a nervous breakdown where I just lay in the fetal position and yell ‘Leavvveee Shaaaaneeee Spencerr ALOOOOOOOOONEEE!!!’ into the camera over and over until I become a YouTube sensation.

  272. blake January 17th, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    Id,
    That’s probably fair…..a CU isn’t some magical thing though…..I think he can learn it. Just because Hughes hasn’t been able to doesn’t mean anything.

  273. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    Shane Spencer’s OPS after his first month in the bigs was 1.32

    And Joba Chamberlain was really good when he first came up with a better arsenal than Pineda, oh no Pineda will now become a reliever!! Shane was also 5 years older than Montero when he debuted but…

  274. Yank1 January 17th, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    Does Pineda’s FB even have movement? I thought the reports said it was a straight 95

    The CH is going to be vital against lefties… and there are a lot of good lefties in the AL East.

  275. Patrick January 17th, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    I suggested that if you disagreed with the trade presenting reasons other than your evaluation of the two players would make your argument more compelling.

    I have…

  276. Shame Spencer January 17th, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    I just don’t want Pineda in fat camp…. If he clears that hurdle he’ll at least rank ahead of Hughes on my meaningless list of pitchers :)

  277. Best To Ever Do It January 17th, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    Eroc January 17th, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    “Yea I thought he would be more excited about it. All last yr he said Montero would get traded and now that he is Mike seems ehhhh on it”

    yeah I know, he always mentioned that Montero would get traded for a “big pitcher”

    I think he is just being rational and cautious – this deal caries a lot of risk and could turn out good or bad, for either side. It’s not like the Granderson trade where all we lost was Kennedy who was not in our long term plans anyway or even Vazquez (though that turned into a disaster giving up Viz but at the time, it looked good).

    This deal, at the present time, I think most NYY fans are nervous about but hoping for the best.

    ————————-

    Yep it’s a risky more and hopefully it works out for the best if not it could be pretty ugly.

  278. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    “randy – safeco totally distorts his numbers. Was safeco making him strike guys out at a better clip than every pitcher in baseball not named Verlander or Morrow?”

    “Due to the spacious Safeco Field, pitchers are more prone to success in Seattle.” – fangraphs

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....-salesman/

    yeah, when a pitcher can challenge hitters constantly because mistakes don’t go out easily, he can strike out more hitters.

    when a pitcher starts nibbling and is afraid to throw strikes because of the tendency of flyballs to go out in right field there’s going to be problems.

    i will be surprised if pineda makes it through the yankee season without being sent back to triple a to learn a change up.

  279. lounge lizard January 17th, 2012 at 5:04 pm

    Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:52 pm
    Let’s try this – be honest now people, I’m measuring noses here…

    If the Yankees had brought Pineda up through the system and he put together the year he did last year and on Friday the team announced that they were trading him and a top pitching prospect for a great hitting prospect that no one believes has a position other than DH and a middle reliever who might become a good mid to back rotation starter…how would you have felt?

    ___________________________________________________________

    If we traded away a RHP who put up those numbers with Tom Seaver mechanics, I would not be pleased. If we traded away a RHP with extremely questionable long-term starter mechanics, I would be very pleased.

    We didn’t get Gio or Garza because they would have cost Montero plus plus other top prospects. Since Pineda is younger, cheaper and put up better numbers in 2011, why were we able to get him for “only” Montero?

    Think about it.

  280. CB January 17th, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    Pineda is a very good pitcher. Great deal of promise. I didn’t like the trade but he was a promising piece to get back.

    My biggest concern with him is injury. He’s got a great frame but he also throws with a lot of effort at very high velocity. His delivery is also very arm heavy.

    He may very well be able to absorb the stress but if he blows out his arm in the near future I would not be surprised.

    Which is why the yankees themselves admitted that they were the ones who took on the bulk of the risk in the deal.

    The subject of the yankees professional appraisal of players keeps coming up.

    Ok. In the yankees professional appraisal the most sure thing traded in the deal was Montero’s bat. Not Pineda’s fastball or arm. It was Montero’s bat. Also, in their appraisal of the talents involved they’ve said that the deal only works if Pineda develops a third pitch.

    That says quite a bit for how highly they appraised Montero’s bat.

    The 23 year old pitcher who just threw 170 innings in the majors with an ERA under 4 and striking out 9.1/9 and walking under 3/9 would only be worth montero’s bat if he develops a third pitch.

    And that’s not even factoring in the Campos issue – which generally increases the value in potential the yankees got back.

    Sounds like a pretty resounding assessment of Montero’s bat.

    At the same time, on the converse side, it suggests how highly the Yankees value pitching.

    We just have to wait and see how it shakes out.

  281. Gary January 17th, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    Hi Blake, been away all day, but just saw the V Martinez news. Has the price of DH’s just gone up? Seems it would have, the Yanks still need somebody and here is an opportunity to hurt the Tigers in replacing a high BA and lots of RBI’s

  282. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 5:06 pm

    blake-

    a lot of pitchers can’t throw a good change up.

    there is no reason to think pineda can. he has a lousy one now.

    just because he needs one doesn’t mean he’s going to develop one.

  283. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    randy – He still K’s almost a batter per inning (3 k’s short) on the road last year… it’s not all safeco.

    I would be infinitely more surprised if Nova/Garcia repeat their 2011 performances than Pineda.

  284. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    Position players ranked in the top 20 had a very high success rate at about 60%, while pitchers in the same group only succeeded about 40% of the time.

    http://www.royalsreview.com/20.....-prospects

  285. blake January 17th, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    Randy,

    Why can’t a 23 year old improve his change up?

  286. CB January 17th, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    Safeco does depress scoring and home runs by a lot.

    But the biggest impact it has is on RH pull hitters. Left field is cavernous.

    But the RF wall is actually much shorter. LH power hitters do ok there. It’s not that big in that part of the park. It’s actually not that much bigger than Yankee stadium in RF, IIRC. Somewhat but not grossly so.

  287. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    CB – That appraisal of Montero’s bat is not tied to any particular level or production, or their needs as a franchise. As the fangraphs article was pointing out, it’s way more likely that Montero at least turns into a Konerko… maybe Carlos Lee type hitter than the Ruthian figures some people are throwing around here. It’s also very likely that it takes him 3 or 4 seasons at the major league level to approach that level of success. The statement the Yankee’s made is very basic, hitting prospects generally have a higher baseline than pitching prospects.

    This is not to say that they feel they needed a bat like that in the DH role. Obviously by their actions they did not think that.

  288. Pat M. January 17th, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    So our GM in training , that’s you Face, is basing a projected .900 OPS on a September call up ??? Even for you that’s a stretch……And oh by the way, I live about 45 miles south of Santa Monica in Newport Beach……Santa Monica was Randy I’s old stomping grounds until he was 86th from the city….

  289. blake January 17th, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    Gary,

    Gotta think the Tigers will make a move….Pena maybe

  290. Benny Blanco January 17th, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    So question: Who would you rather have? Ubaldo or Pineda??

  291. Best To Ever Do It January 17th, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    lounge lizard January 17th, 2012 at 5:04 pm

    Chip January 17th, 2012 at 4:52 pm
    Let’s try this – be honest now people, I’m measuring noses here…

    If the Yankees had brought Pineda up through the system and he put together the year he did last year and on Friday the team announced that they were trading him and a top pitching prospect for a great hitting prospect that no one believes has a position other than DH and a middle reliever who might become a good mid to back rotation starter…how would you have felt?

    ___________________________________________________________

    If we traded away a RHP who put up those numbers with Tom Seaver mechanics, I would not be pleased. If we traded away a RHP with extremely questionable long-term starter mechanics, I would be very pleased.

    We didn’t get Gio or Garza because they would have cost Montero plus plus other top prospects. Since Pineda is younger, cheaper and put up better numbers in 2011, why were we able to get him for “only” Montero?

    Think about it.

    —————————-

    And then factor in Campos who is suppose to be as good Pineda and have a ceiling as a number 1. Something isn’t right here. Why would the Ms give the Yankees two pitchers projected to be aces or at worst 2s for a DH and a possible mid to back end rotation guy.

  292. stuckey January 17th, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    Derek Jeter is done.

    Left field will be a black hole offensively.

    Granderson can’t hit lefties.

    Montero will OPS .900

    Pineda will wind up a middle reliever after he blow his elbow out making a start in Scranton.

    I’ve learned so much in my time here…

  293. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    So our GM in training , that’s you Face, is basing a projected .900 OPS on a September call up ??? Even for you that’s a stretch

    You watched Pineda for 6 innings and said he was gonna dominate the entire MLB for 10 years. Please don’t, troll.

  294. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 5:15 pm

    You saw Cespedes on a youtube and thought he was Bo Jackson.

  295. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 5:15 pm

    You saw Mike Napoli on a bench and thought he was out of baseball.

  296. Gary January 17th, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    blake January 17th, 2012 at 5:12 pm
    Gary,

    Gotta think the Tigers will make a move….Pena maybe

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    Martinez has a lot to do with Cabrera’s success. Several teams might be interested in not making it easy to fix the hole.

  297. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    You saw Montero hit pitchers that never made the majors and thought he would OPS .900

    Oh wait, that’s not the meme you were doing… sorry.

  298. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    Martinez has a lot to do with Cabrera’s success. Several teams might be interested in not making it easy to fix the hole.

    the Tigers don’t have to worry. They can just pluck another v-mart out of free agency or by trade.

  299. Best To Ever Do It January 17th, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 5:15 pm

    You saw Mike Napoli on a bench and thought he was out of baseball.

    ———————

    hahahahaha

  300. CB January 17th, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    “Gotta think the Tigers will make a move….Pena maybe”

    Think LGY posted this thought also before. Makes a ton of sense given alternatives. I guess they could take a flier on Kotchman but I’d have to think they’d prefer Pena.

    It’s really too bad. I was hoping Pena would fall into the yankees price level. Seems unlikely now.

    The Yanks have half of a DH. They need to get the other half now.

  301. Yank1 January 17th, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    I bet there is a greater chance Montero has a .900 OPS in the majors than it is Pineda turns into a top of the rotation ace and stays healthy. It’s not going out on a limb, it is reality. The guy already has had elbow problems.

    And developing pitches are easier said than done… see: Hughes, Phil. 7 years and he still only has 1 pitch, injuries or not.

  302. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    jerkface – No, the tigers do have to worry because now their lineup was dependent on their DH and he’s gone. Their roster was not dynamic, like my proposals.

  303. Pat M. January 17th, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    CB….Then the question begs to be answered, why did they trade Montero…..Maybe they place a higher value on a young power pitcher with the potential to be a flat out denominator as opposed to a power hitting DH……..What gets lost in all of this is Campos, until about three years from now when he hits the big stage….I look forward to his progress reports this summer and beyond

  304. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    You saw Montero hit pitchers that never made the majors and thought he would OPS .900

    jered weaver didnt make the majors? Here I thought he was in the top 10!

  305. kd January 17th, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    the crawford thing is a pretty big blow to the sox. i know he was terrible last year, but at least he played defense. now that contract makes them unable to sign pitching and play aaaa players in the outfield.

    they may have to overpay for swisher at some point

  306. Best To Ever Do It January 17th, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    And developing pitches are easier said than done… see: Hughes, Phil. 7 years and he still only has 1 pitch, injuries or not.

    —————————————-

    Seems like we have been waiting forever for that to happen.

  307. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    jerkface – Ooooh, 1 pitcher, excellent point.

  308. blake January 17th, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    “The Yanks have half of a DH. They need to get the other half now.”

    What about Ethier?

  309. Gary January 17th, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 5:17 pm
    Martinez has a lot to do with Cabrera’s success. Several teams might be interested in not making it easy to fix the hole.

    the Tigers don’t have to worry. They can just pluck another v-mart out of free agency or by trade.

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    I think Martinez hit over .300 with 100+ RBI’s. I don’t think their are many of those guys just hanging around. Yanks need to move on their DH, the market just heated up

  310. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    “Randy you are looking ro find something wrong with the guy because you like Montero. The trade you now feel is the worst you have ever seen will actually turn out to be a good one and you will think your comment was silly in a year or 2.”

    actually what you’ll find is that when i go out on a limb like this , i’m almost always right.

    when i have i gone out on a limb before on the blog?

    i said before hughes got injured in his first year that he would get injured because of being rushed.

    i said before joba got injured that he was stretched out to fast and would get injured.

    i said livan hernandez would be a good pitcher for the yankees way back in 2008 when everyone thought he sucked.

    i never cared one way or the other about austin jackson or meloncon or tabata or any other prospects the yankees had.

    montero i said was going to be a star.

    i said this after watching one swing.

    i don’t believe it takes a lot of looking when you see something amazing.

    montero was a star with the yankees at the end of 2011.

    his only problem was cashman buried him.

    oh yeah, i also said cashman would ruin wang.

    how’d that work out?

    i also said cervelli was nothing special when the blog was gaga over him

    so ignore what i’m saying if you want.

    i’m saying pineda will be a relief pitcher much sooner than anyone here expects.

    when have i really been wrong?

    let me think.

    i know i was once

    maybe even twice :)

    actually i was wrong about Javier Vázquez.

    i thought he was going to be good in 2010.

    no , i’m right about this.
    worst yankee trade in 60 years.

  311. Gary January 17th, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    Man is the Montero converstaion getting old

  312. Wave Your Hat January 17th, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    The deal is more risky for the Yanks, but it was still a deal they needed to make.

    It improves them this year, because (A) with or without Montero, the Yanks are going to score a lot of runs in 2011, and (B) with the addition of Kuroda, it solidifies what was shaping up as a rotation with a lot of question marks and which had the very real possibility of disappointing.

    Second, the “absolute” value of Montero is beside the point. The question is, what was Montero’s value to this team, given existing contracts and players? Montero wasn’t going to be the starting catcher. He wasn’t going to become the starting catcher, given where he is now and how much playing time he was likely to get at catcher. He was going to be the DH, and as DH he’s not as valuable as he would have been elsewhere. And given the mega-contract with ARod, ARod is going to impinge on DH at bats at some point, maybe even this year.

    Pineda allows the Yanks to develop a very good, very inexpensive rotation in future years. Sure it’s a risk, but so is a rotation without him, while hoping to sign Hamels and all the while planning to spend less than $189M in 2014.

    The deal may not work out. I personally think it will, and like I said Friday night, I really respect Cashman for having the guts to do it.

  313. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    “Yanks need to move on their DH, the market just heated up”

    how about banuelos for montero?

  314. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    oh yeah, i also said cashman would ruin wang.
    how’d that work out?

    ROFL – Randy that’s just truly bonkers logic right there.

  315. Gary January 17th, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    kd January 17th, 2012 at 5:20 pm
    the crawford thing is a pretty big blow to the sox. i know he was terrible last year, but at least he played defense. now that contract makes them unable to sign pitching and play aaaa players in the outfield.

    they may have to overpay for swisher at some point

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    I think Crawford is going to bounce back this year.

    Sorry to inform you we are already overpaying Swisher.

  316. PacoDooley January 17th, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    Great stat from Yahoo:

    “Still, if he sticks at DH as most expect, the 22-year-old will try to become the fifth player in history to top four wins above replacement at the position. Yes, the only players with 90 percent of their games at DH and four-plus-WAR seasons, according to Baseball-Reference.com, are Edgar Martinez (with seven, including a DH-high 7.7 in 1995), David Ortiz (three), Travis Hafner (three) and Jim Thome (one). Thome is a Hall of Famer. Martinez is borderline. Ortiz will get plenty of votes. And Hafner was one of the game’s elite sluggers until injuries derailed him.

    Twenty-two pitchers posted WARs of four or better last season alone.”

    There my friends is why the Yankees traded Montero. They see him as a DH and they believe that an elite pitcher is more valuable than a DH. Pineda was already a 3.4 WAR player last year. People seem to be missing the massive talent of Pineda – few have done what he has done at his age and with his huge size (and apparently he has added a couple of inches of height in the last couple of years) he should only get better as he adapts his game. His command and poise suggest that he will be able to develop that third pitch we want to see.

  317. Gary January 17th, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 5:25 pm
    “Yanks need to move on their DH, the market just heated up”

    how about banuelos for montero?

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    How about Damon

  318. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    i said livan hernandez would be a good pitcher for the yankees way back in 2008 when everyone thought he sucked.

    He did and outside of one blip with the nats… does suck. Strike 2.

  319. Best To Ever Do It January 17th, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    To be fair they ruined Wang’s rehab

  320. CB January 17th, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    “Then the question begs to be answered, why did they trade Montero…..Maybe they place a higher value on a young power pitcher with the potential to be a flat out denominator as opposed to a power hitting DH……..”

    I think there are two potential reasons.

    The first is that they completely believe that power pitching wins and that they can “buy bats” on the market more easily.

    The second reason is that trading for Pineda may provide them a pathway to not have to spend anymore money on the rotation. This in turn will be of critical help to them getting under the salary cap for 2014.

    I suppose it could be a mixture of both.

    And I personally think the reasons why they made the trade are critical.

    If its the first reason and they really just believe in pitching then that’s an issue of organizational philosophy. That’s fine.

    I personally think that the game has changed in significant ways. Far fewer runs are scored. This means that offense is more scarce and can generate more competitive advantage than it could in the past.

    Pitching is still the key foundation – but I don’t think it is quite as “valuable” as it was a decade ago.

    But the Yankees probably disagree with that.

    Now the rub here is that if it’s the second reason – then the organization really has issues. If this is just a cost saving mechanism – which I think is very possible then I’m not real keen on it at all.

    Then this move is just a way of making up for the bone headed contracts to Alex and Soriano, and AJ.

    The key test to this will be how the Yankees act. IF Hamels hits free agency and they go after him aggressively as one would expect then I think we can reasonably conclude that the organization is truly wedded to elite pitching. If they pass on Hamels then I think this trade was largely made as a way of balancing the budget.

    We’ll see. Not enough information to draw conclusions now.

  321. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    Sorry to inform you we are already overpaying Swisher.

    Incorrect. Sorry to inform you but Swisher is one of the better OF’s in the major leagues, and has already provided surplus FA value on his contract.

  322. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    “ROFL – Randy that’s just truly bonkers logic right there.”

    hey, if living in ignorance floats your boat, knock yourself out.

  323. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    Pitcher WAR kind of sucks. Just my opinion though, because its based on FIP, which removes actual runs given up and what happens on the field. So pitcher WAR is based on the theoretical goodness of a pitcher, instead of their actual value that year like hitters WAR is based on. FIP is a good predicative stat but a pitcher with a great FIP and a terrible ERA isnt more valuable in a year than a pitcher with a bad FIP and a good ERA. You’d bet on the former the next season but for the season they just had one was clearly “better” to have on the team.

  324. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    Far fewer runs are scored. This means that offense is more scarce and can generate more competitive advantage than it could in the past.

    I believe this is the dog chasing his tail around the room. In reality, run scoring is depressed because of drug testing.. and players that you used to think projected to be .900 OPS bats will not be anymore.

  325. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    “To be fair they ruined Wang’s rehab”

    bingo

  326. Wave Your Hat January 17th, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    “Then this move is just a way of making up for the bone headed contracts to Alex and Soriano, and AJ.”

    I disagree with the word “just” there. This contracts are a fact of life. The budget constraints are probably (flexible) facts of life. This move was a smart way of dealing with them.

  327. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    So pitcher WAR is based on the theoretical goodness of a pitcher

    Not entirely accurate, more like the repeatable nature of a pitchers results.

  328. Gary January 17th, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:28 pm
    Sorry to inform you we are already overpaying Swisher.

    Incorrect. Sorry to inform you but Swisher is one of the better OF’s in the major leagues, and has already provided surplus FA value on his contract.

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    ID we have had this one out before and agreeded to disagree. You see the value of Nick Swisher much higher than I do.

  329. Wave Your Hat January 17th, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Unless Pineda busts, there’s no way the Yanks chase Hamels now, IMO.

  330. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    randy l – Who is living in ignorance? How can you possible convince me that Cashman broke Wang’s foot? Wang was ruined by his own injury (and lying about his injuries) and losing the feel of a sinker, which is possibly the hardest pitch to throw. it had basically… nothing to do with Cashman.

  331. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Gary – You see the value of Nick Swisher much higher than I do.

    You may have agreed to that… I certainly never do :)

    i just don’t see how you completely discount his production, production that other outfielders in the league do not give…

    The players you think are better than him do no exist in reality.

  332. blake January 17th, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    “Unless Pineda busts, there’s no way the Yanks chase Hamels now, IMO.”

    Then this move was as much about the payroll as trying to make the team better……and that stinks.

  333. Wave Your Hat January 17th, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    ID-

    randy l has always thought that Cashman never believed in Wang and the bad karma resulting from that caused the cascade of Wang woes.

  334. stuckey January 17th, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    “The Yanks have half of a DH. They need to get the other half now.”

    No, we’d LIKE them to get the other half.

    And to be fair…

    “The deal is more risky for the Yanks, but it was still a deal they needed to make. ”

    No, not that either.

  335. Best To Ever Do It January 17th, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    randy l – Who is living in ignorance? How can you possible convince me that Cashman broke Wang’s foot? Wang was ruined by his own injury (and lying about his injuries) and losing the feel of a sinker, which is possibly the hardest pitch to throw. it had basically… nothing to do with Cashman.

    ————————-

    The Yankees were the ones that told him not run and build up the strength in his legs. They have all the info and know the player better than we do. They botched his rehab plain and simple.

  336. Wave Your Hat January 17th, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    “Then this move was as much about the payroll as trying to make the team better……and that stinks.”

    I disagree, blake, because payroll is a critical element in making the team better.

  337. PacoDooley January 17th, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 17th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
    Unless Pineda busts, there’s no way the Yanks chase Hamels now, IMO.

    —————————–
    I disagree – I think it depends more on Banuelos and Betances development. If Nova is decent again this season, they will have CC, Pineda, and Novas locks on the rotation, with Kiroda and Garcia gone. If Hughes can stick and they finally drop AJ from the rotation I can see them going after Hamels to make this a lockdown starting 5. If Hughes fails, then they would need one of the B’s to fill a slot.

    So I think Pineda only affects the Hamels situation if they do not manage to develop at least one more quality starter before 2013.

  338. Gary January 17th, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:34 pm
    Gary – You see the value of Nick Swisher much higher than I do.

    You may have agreed to that… I certainly never do

    i just don’t see how you completely discount his production, production that other outfielders in the league do not give…

    The players you think are better than him do no exist in reality.

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    I don’t think there was anything to agree on. The statements simply state each of our positons and we do disagree on his value. I don’t discount his production, I discount his ability to produce when the chips are down. As far as I’m concerned the guy is a clown and I’ll be happy to see him go elsewhere after next year.

  339. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    ” How can you possible convince me that Cashman broke Wang’s foot? Wang was ruined by his own injury (and lying about his injuries) and losing the feel of a sinker, which is possibly the hardest pitch to throw. it had basically… nothing to do with Cashman.”

    i don’t have to convince a pompous dumbass of anything.

    like i said , look at my predictions when i go out on a limb.

    what are your predictions about the future?

    that’s the real test of if someone knows something.

    show something you’ve gone out on a limb on that you turned out right on and i’ll upgrade you from dumbass.

    otherwise STFU

  340. blake January 17th, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    “I disagree, blake, because payroll is a critical element in making the team better.”

    That depends

  341. Pat M. January 17th, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    CB…..As always a solid explanatory response…..I do think in between your two points lies the truth…..If their young pitchers progress I can see The Front Office turning their back on Cole Hamels next winter…….ID, you’ve been very impressive in expressing your viewpoint the past couple of days….

  342. Yank1 January 17th, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    “The key test to this will be how the Yankees act. IF Hamels hits free agency and they go after him aggressively as one would expect then I think we can reasonably conclude that the organization is truly wedded to elite pitching. If they pass on Hamels then I think this trade was largely made as a way of balancing the budget.”

    Which would be unfortunate – they could have had Montero AND Hamels and instead, they might just end up with Pineda, who is a far bigger question mark than either guy.

    It would suck if we lost out on the next great offensive Yankee, a Cabrera/Piazza bat, because the Yankees tied themselves to bad contracts and had to figure out an area to save money because they couldn’t add FA pitching.

  343. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    randy – wow, you need to relax. you are not the genius you seem to think you are, if you were you would not be posting here… So pull your head out of your ego’s a$$ and calm down.

    I’ve been right about plenty of things around here.. Montero not catching last year was a big one, Montero getting traded away for a pitcher because he can’t catch and the Yankee’s don’t want a young DH blocking up their system is another. The Kuroda signing… I don’t feel the need to keep track like you seem to.

    But… I don’t attempt to use completely unrelated things, like that list of garbage you just pulled as justification for being right going forward, like you seem to be doing. I try to actually figure out why something will happen and use that as my reason.

    “You think so” seems to be a good enough reason for you… that’s great… no one cares.

  344. Pat M. January 17th, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    PacoDooley….I didn’t see your post and I wasn’t plagiarizing you…But I do agree with your premise

  345. CB January 17th, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    “In reality, run scoring is depressed because of drug testing.. and players that you used to think projected to be .900 OPS bats will not be anymore.”

    But this is the whole point. I think Montero isn’t affected by this general trend. This is why myself and others value you him so highly.

    He’s not one of those players who “used to” be able to put up a .900 OPS and now can’t.

    He’s a player who can still do that. Which is why he’s so valuable.

    Let me try to put this in your terms.

    In my assessment Montero has a legitimate shot to be a 150+ wRC player. I think he’s that good.

    And please don’t cite that same Fangraphs article telling me Montero is going to be Konerko or whatever. I’ve read it. Believe me – I understand it. I routinely work with quantitative issues that are orders of magnitude more complex than anything done in baseball.

    That’s not my assessment of this player.

    And please don’t tell me about statistics. At this point in time I don’t think this is an empirical question. It’s a question of tools and ability.

    I follow minor league baseball pretty closely. Montero is the best young hitter I personally have seen since Miguel Cabrera.

    He has an unbelievable swing. Better than Justin Upton’s, Stanton’s and Heywards.

    Call me crazy if you want or disregard what I have to say. I really don’t care. I watch a lot of baseball. I think he has that kind of talent.

    It is remarkable to see how deep Montero allows the ball to travel into the hitting zone and his ability to do that and still drive the ball the other way.

    You can go years before you see a player with that kind of hitting talent.

    In no way does that guarantee he’ll be that good. I understand the statistical probability. Chances are he won’t. Just like chances are Pineda doesn’t develop into anything close to being an ace.

    In the context of the game today, I think Montero is an extremely valuable asset. One that will be very difficult to replace.

  346. stuckey January 17th, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    “I personally think that the game has changed in significant ways. Far fewer runs are scored. This means that offense is more scarce and can generate more competitive advantage than it could in the past.”

    Offense is never going to be more scarce, just the definition of it will change.

    What this comes down to is a belief that Montero’s bat is going to buck the league-wide downward trend of offensive regression, and that somehow his tools are becoming more scarce, as opposed to again, a league wide trend of regression.

    Yankees, as they always have, will year-in and year-out have the opportunity to put an elite offensive team on the field. The metrics defining elite is simply changing.

  347. Gary January 17th, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    Hughes $3.2M, Joba $1.6M

    Ian Kennedy $432K

  348. Nick in SF January 17th, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    “I just don’t want Pineda in fat camp…. If he clears that hurdle he’ll at least rank ahead of Hughes on my meaningless list of pitchers.”

    Hughes ate the hurdle. :neutral:

  349. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    pat m – I stayed at a holiday inn for like… an entire week. :)

    I think it’s a drastic shift in baseball, and the type of player that would normally have filled that role… the Ortiz’s of the world… they are gone now because of drug testing. Let some other team choke down on that has-been of baseball roster construction, and let’s move forward with the new, more dynamic approach most teams seem are taking.

    One would be hard pressed at this point to say that one belies more success than the other.

  350. Yank1 January 17th, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    JackCurryYES
    While Yanks have talked about Pena, Damon and Matsui as DH possibilities, they’re in no rush to sign a DH and won’t spend much on that spot

  351. Nick in SF January 17th, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    stuckey, I checked to see if the post office is open today; it is.

  352. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    i said livan hernandez would be a good pitcher for the yankees way back in 2008 when everyone thought he sucked.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    I never said Livan sucked. I said his daddy was nuts.

  353. J. Alfred Prufrock January 17th, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    As the fangraphs article was pointing out, it’s way more likely that Montero at least turns into a Konerko… maybe Carlos Lee type hitter than the Ruthian figures some people are throwing around here. It’s also very likely that it takes him 3 or 4 seasons at the major league level to approach that level of success.
    ///

    which level of success will take him 3 or 4 seasons?

    Carlos Lee/Paul Konerko?

    Or a “Ruthian” level of success?

  354. Best To Ever Do It January 17th, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    Gary January 17th, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    Hughes $3.2M, Joba $1.6M

    Ian Kennedy $432K

    —————————

    Is that true? if so wow

  355. stuckey January 17th, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    Nick,

    You had to check?

    It’s Tuesday January 17th.

    Why on Earth would it closed?

    [dumbass...]

  356. CB January 17th, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    “Unless Pineda busts, there’s no way the Yanks chase Hamels now, IMO.”

    Wave,

    As always, I respect your point of view. Your argument makes a great deal of sense.

    And in many ways we agree. I also think this move was as much about business as it was about baseball.

    It was a way to control costs. Or at least try to.

    You’re very pragmatic – I knew that you’d have a different interpretation of “just”.

    But personally, I understand that this may just be “the way it is” but that doesn’t mean I have to be particularly keen on it.

    Especially when it was ownership themselves who foolishly put the organization in this situation.

    Also, much of the discussion today has been about the substantive baseball merits of the deal. You are saying that there are exogenous drivers for the deal. I agree that’s likely. But that also means that there are extenuating circumstances and you can’t just say that the yanks trade Montero purely because of Montero’s talent.

    And if the Yankees do pass on Hamels it will be an enormous mistake. An unbelievably bad decision.

    The cash flow and revenues are there. All we’re talking about now is what their operating margins will be.

  357. GreenBeret7 January 17th, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    I believe that’s what he went to the post office to look for.

  358. Nick in SF January 17th, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    stuckey,

    Because apparently it’s been closed for every single day since Gustavo Molina had an official at-bat for the Yankees in 2011.

    Or maybe there was just a problem with your post office. :cry:

  359. LGY January 17th, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    Nick

    Unless you need $25, I think you’re going to be waiting a while for that cash from Stuckey.

  360. Best To Ever Do It January 17th, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    Yank1 January 17th, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    JackCurryYES
    While Yanks have talked about Pena, Damon and Matsui as DH possibilities, they’re in no rush to sign a DH and won’t spend much on that spot

    —————

    Rotating DH come on down :(

  361. umbrelladoc January 17th, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    Trying to add something to the Pineda/Montero discussion. We all seem to agree on the basics – the value of a promising bat without a defensive position versus the value of a promising arm with ace potential – that Pineda has greater upside as an ace, but higher risk as an unfinished product and as a pitcher, greater injury risk.

    But lets look at this the other way – lets suppose Pineda was a Yankee this year (or signed as Cuban free agent), and Montero was a Mariner prospect. Is there any way we would trade the promising young pitcher who has ace level stuff for the bat, even if Montero was more of a sure thing and we had an opening at DH?

  362. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    “’ve been right about plenty of things around here.. Montero not catching last year was a big one, Montero getting traded away for a pitcher because he can’t catch and the Yankee’s don’t want a young DH blocking up their system is another. The Kuroda signing… I don’t feel the need to keep track like you seem to.”

    any predictions of on field results?

    put up or shut up.

  363. Nick in SF January 17th, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    LGY,

    What makes you think whether or not I need the money stuckey and Bret the Hitman owe me for losing wagers has been a factor for them in (thus far) not paying?

    If I had a particular need for the $25, I wouldn’t have wagered it on baseball outcomes in the first place.

    :arrow:

  364. CB January 17th, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    “What this comes down to is a belief that Montero’s bat is going to buck the league-wide downward trend of offensive regression, and that somehow his tools are becoming more scarce, as opposed to again, a league wide trend of regression. ”

    Yes. I think Montero’s tools are becoming comparatively scarce.

    In the recent past players were acquiring those tools through artificial means and inflating the “true” run scoring environment.

    So if you can actually find a player who legitimately has those tools then you should hold on to him regardless of the position he plays.

    Just come up with a list of player who allow the ball to travel as deep into the hitting zone and can still drive the ball with authority. That is arguably the single most important skill a player can have. Montero has it in spades.

    In the end this all get down to talent evaluation and risk. So we’ll see.

  365. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    “I never said Livan sucked. I said his daddy was nuts.”

    i never trust anyone who when they whiff at a golf ball calls it a practice swing.

  366. MTU January 17th, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    With the voluminous number of comments and arguments presented on the Trade I don’t see that
    anyone has convinced anyone else to change their beliefs.

    People still fall into 3 basic groups :

    Those who are against the trade

    Those who favor the trade

    And those who think the jury is still out (myself)

    Unless talk can be substituted for experience I think we’re just gonna have wait to find out who won.

    ;)

  367. stuckey January 17th, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    “Just come up with a list of player who allow the ball to travel as deep into the hitting zone and can still drive the ball with authority. That is arguably the single most important skill a player can have. Montero has it in spades. ”

    That’s highly arguable.

    I’m making absolutely no arguments about the development of Jesus Montero, but since we’re purely speculating here, Montero is a very young man with an already large frame and seems to show a lack of quickness in other areas.

    What if he never develops greater strike zone discipline and his bat speed suffers (even slightly) with age and potential weight gain?

    Couldn’t it be argued his natural tendency to let the ball get so deep could become a problem if he does lose some bat speed that he possesses as a young man in his early 20s?

  368. stuckey January 17th, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    “And those who think the jury is still out (myself)”

    I’m still perpetually amazed that people who watch baseball a lot are able to convince themselves they have a better than random chance to predict the career path of young players.

  369. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    randy – no, i have no interest in entering a silly game with you of attempting to “predict the future” and that somehow vindicating your right to use your opinions as fact…

  370. Villa Nova-Ya January 17th, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    I think the Yankees are hoping that they are not in a position to HAVE to go after Hamels next winter.

    And if they don’t, doesn’t that speak to some success on their part?

    If they do, well, then they do, and they will (reluctantly) spend the money.

    I’m not going to assume the worst.

  371. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    CB – Is run scoring down, or is run prevention up? Chicken or the Egg? You can’t even begin to make a definitive statement of that one way or the other without diving deep into discussions you don’t want to have… discussions that are generally had by people that would not belie keeping Montero as a DH to begin with. Assuming that Montero is the “scarce commodity” just because you see the league as “offense is trending down” rather than “pitching is getting better” or “the ball has changed” or “drug testing”… over a few seasons is a slippery slope…

    I simply think the Yankees will be better off with the production they get from Pineda/Campos in the rotation, and the flexibility that having these extra pitchers will allow later on to acquire bats in positions of need. You don’t agree with that, that’s fine. You think Montero is going to be good enough to overcome his “only being a DH”. I don’t think that’s even remotely the most likely of scenario’s… and I don’t think that’s worth him squatting in the DH spot to find out either… he basically has to meet the upper end of his projections for that to work.

    When you have Posada batting .200 for 3/4 of the season and you still have the second best offense in baseball… DH is not a position of need… and I’m not worried about the “low end” of Montero’s projections… I’m worried about not having to spend over $20m+ on Hamels next year because Nova and Hughes both busted and the B’s are not ready.

  372. Jerkface January 17th, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    Campos is in A ball, lets hold off before we say he is in the rotation :)

  373. Irreverent Discourse January 17th, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    yes JF, that’s clearly not what I meant at this point….

  374. randy l. January 17th, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    ” no, i have no interest in entering a silly game with you of attempting to “predict the future” and that somehow vindicating your right to use your opinions as fact…”

    i pay attention to people who before something happens make a prediction of possible outcomes and have a good track record on what they predict will happen.

    it’s all about results.

    scenario thinking is a better way of looking at a lot of these issues too.

    baseball is a probability game and often it’s not an either/ or situation but rather 3-4 or more possible outcomes.

    people who are realistic about these multiple possible outcomes and are right more than wrong get my attention.

    i also respect people who simply say they don’t know about something.
    i had no opinion about sabathia, granderson, teixeira,swisher, etc.
    in those cases just watch and see what happens.

    what’s interesting about this montero/pinata trade is that it’s livened up the blog by making people come out and make predictions. i hate the trade, but i like the fact it’s interesting debate,

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