The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Yankees organizational depth: Second base

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 18, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Yankees are one contract extension away from having second base locked up through the decade. Robinson Cano has emerged as one of the best, most-reliable hitters in baseball. And he’s done it while playing a position that’s often a source of more defense than offense. The job should belong to Cano for quite a while.

In the big leagues
There hasn’t been much need for a backup lately. Cano plays almost everyday, and he hits against lefties and righties. Defensively, he’s a perpetual Gold Glove candidate with a knack for making plays to his right, where he can show off his tremendous arm. Of course, it’s the bat that makes Cano really shine. His slash line the past three seasons is .314/.361/.529, and Joe Girardi is at least tinkering with the idea of finally making Cano a regular No. 3 hitter. As it stands, the Yankees have picked up Cano’s option for 2012, and they’ll certainly do the same with Cano’s option for 2013. At this point, it has to be only a matter of time before the Yankees commit to Cano with a new multi-year deal that keeps second base in his hands for the foreseeable future.

On the verge
The Yankees have considerable on-the-verge depth at second base, but they don’t necessarily have a singular standout at the position. Eduardo Nunez, Ramiro Pena, Kevin Russo and Jayson Nix can play the position and have big league experience. The Yankees also just added second basemen Corban Joseph and David Adams to the 40-man roster, putting them one phone call away from playing a role in the big leagues. Joseph is a Russo-type, with some defensive flexibility and a steady bat. Adams is the more dynamic prospect with a potentially bigger bat, but he’s also coming back from an injury that’s cost him most of the past two seasons. Everyone mentioned here could be in Triple-A this season, with all but Nunez and Adams — because of the injury — likely to open there.

Deep in the system
The abundance of second basemen at the top of the Yankees organization should provide depth while the team waits for its next wave of middle infielders to advance from the lowest levels. The place to start is probably 2010 second-round pick Angelo Gumbs, who had solid across-the-board numbers in Staten Island, where he often hit third last season. He should get his first taste of full-season ball this year. Right behind Gumbs, the Yankees have Claudio Custodio and Jose Rosario out of the Dominican Republic — both can play second or short — and they also have Anderson Feliz, another Dominican second baseman who had a disappointing full-season debut with Charleston last season. A wild card in this discussion is Ronnier Mustelier, a Cuban utility man who made a strong first impression last season and can play all over the field, including second base.

Organizational depth chart
My rough guess. It’s too early for the Yankees to decide who will be where next season.
New York: Robinson Cano
Scranton/WB: Corban Joseph
Trenton: David Adams
Tampa: Kelvin Castro
Charleston: Angelo Gumbs

Adams’ assignment could depend on his health and how he looks in spring training, but Double-A seems most likely. Ultimately, there are a lot of guys who could get some second base playing time up and down the organization — Reegie Corona, Kevin Mahoney, Doug Bernier — and the lack of a no-doubt standout isn’t much cause for concern because of the guy already playing the position in New York. Tampa’s second baseman is a bit tough to guess, because I suppose Anderson Feliz could move up so that he’ll continue getting regular at-bats despite a rocky year in Charleston.

Associated Press photo of Cano, headshots of Cano, Joseph and Gumbs

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157 Responses to “Yankees organizational depth: Second base”

  1. Patrick January 18th, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    Nice post but I don’t think Cano should ever hit 3rd in the lineup. He just isn’t a high OBP player, 5th suits him perfectly.

  2. Ys Guy January 18th, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    so far all the DMN is saying that it’s 6 years at more than $52M. that’s pretty vague.

  3. Oscar Madison January 19th, 2012 at 3:51 am

    Guess the old LoHud Blog died for awhile, some probably having withdrawals ? Too bad. :-(

  4. theREALkevin January 19th, 2012 at 4:06 am

    Yu Darvish got signed and then the blog broke.

  5. dp January 19th, 2012 at 4:15 am

    chad was protesting SOPA/PIPA

  6. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 5:29 am

    Darvish cost the Rangers a minimum AAV of 18.62 Million $$$ per year.

    Anybody think he’s that good ?(Except for JF that is).

    For that money he needs to pitch like one of the top pitchers in baseball
    for the next 5/6 years.

    Lotsa luck.

    ;)

  7. Gary January 19th, 2012 at 5:36 am

    MTU January 19th, 2012 at 5:29 am
    Darvish cost the Rangers a minimum AAV of 18.62 Million $$$ per year.

    Anybody think he’s that good ?(Except for JF that is).

    For that money he needs to pitch like one of the top pitchers in baseball
    for the next 5/6 years.

    Lotsa luck.

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    MTU, I think he is good, but until he gets some stats out there no one really knows. Rangers seem to be a pretty good club to judge pitching talent and Ryan was one of the greatest pitchers of all time. I’m looking forward to seeing him pitch. Right now I don’t think it was a dumb move, but if he doesn’t approach expectations there will be plenty of second guessing.

  8. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 5:39 am

    Gary-

    Good morning.

    He may be good but is he THAT good ?

    Doubt it.

    And by the way, where’s that Grouper you promised me ?

    :)

  9. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 5:43 am

    IMO the Halos are the superior team.

    Better starting staff, decent lineup, way better manager, adequate BP.

    The Rangers are expecting U to be their ACE. Seems kinda out there as a bet to me.

    But that’s OK because I want to see the Rangers fail anyway.

    :)

  10. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 5:49 am

    Gary-

    To be honest, if I were a Rangers fan I’d be much more excited to see Feliz throw the ball as a starter.

    Now that guy has some serious talent.

    Of course the good side of that for us is that I wouldn’t be surprised if the Rangers manage to damage his arm converting him the way they are going about it.

    Expecting him to throw a minimum of 150 innings after being a reliever so long is pretty damn stupid if you ask me.

    ;)

  11. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 5:55 am

    Neftali Feliz has not thrown more than 69 innings in a season a ML pitcher.

    He’s ben a reliever for the last 3 years.

    This year he will be expected to throw a min. of 150. That’s almost double.

    Bad idea. Vey bad idea. In fact, it’s an extremely foolhardy idea especially considering the talent involved.

    Ever hear of Verducci, Nolan. yeah. I know. You don’t believe in that.

    Duh.

    :(

  12. Gary January 19th, 2012 at 5:56 am

    MTU January 19th, 2012 at 5:39 am
    Gary-

    Good morning.

    He may be good but is he THAT good ?

    Doubt it.

    And by the way, where’s that Grouper you promised me ?

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    MTU, fishing catchwise was not good. Got out there and it was a very slack tide meaning the water wasn’t moving. When you don’t have water moving the bite just shuts down. Didn’t get many.

    I’m just one that waits for the data, the data never lies. Being an engineer it can’t be about the emotion, but rather the facts and data.

    I like the guy I hope he does well. I’m not one to wish bad luck on another player, except if they happen to be the San Fran 49′ers this weekend :-) Rangers are a pretty good ball club, I expect them to not screw it up and bring both Feliz and Yu along are the proper pace, but not anything matching the knuckleheads and their binders we have here.

  13. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 5:59 am

    Just because they got away with it Wilson doesn’t mean they’re gonna with Feliz.

    Big gamble if you ask me.

    Wilson was a lot older than Feliz and probably past the danger point for arm trouble.

    Not so with Neftali.

  14. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:02 am

    Gary-

    Rangers are taking some big gambles.

    You’re right though. Time (and data) will tell. Just like with the Pineda/Montero trade.

    P.S. I’d accept Snapper or Mahi Mahi as an adequate substitute.

    ;)

  15. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:03 am

    And speakin’ of “tides”.

    It’s gonna turn against the Niners this weekend.

    ;)

  16. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:04 am

    It’s payback time !

    And we all know what “paybacks” are.

    :)

  17. PacoDooley January 19th, 2012 at 6:04 am

    I just hope that Darvish cost them enough to rule out Fielder coming to Texas. Those two additions to a team that played in the last two World Series would be really scary.

    I’m also happy that he cost them an arm and a leg given the risks. I imagine that someone like Hamels will only cost a tick more on a ca. 6 year contract (6 years $130m?). They are indeed gambling big time in Texas…

  18. Rich in NJ January 19th, 2012 at 6:06 am

    I read that the Rangers could be interested in Fielder on a creative short-term deal (not that he’d necesssarly accept it). But assuming for the purposes of discussion that he would and the yanks pass on it, this franchise should seriously rethink what they are about.

  19. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:09 am

    Paco-

    I agree. Don’t want to see them get their grubby hands on Prince.

    That would be a game changer in the figurative as well as the literal sense.

    The are working their $$$ printing presses overtime.

    They better pray the financing works out the way they hope along with the U-Man.

    Or they are gonna go from Texas “hold ‘em” to Texas “fold ‘em”.

    ;)

  20. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:10 am

    Rich-

    Let’s see it. Talk is cheap.

    Prince is more likely to go to the Nats. they are offering a better deal.

    ;)

  21. Gary January 19th, 2012 at 6:13 am

    MTU, I just read that Darvish is getting $60M for 6 years. You can make an argument both ways, but if he pitches to his expectations it’s reasonable. Of course if he doesn’t then it wasn’t.

  22. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:15 am

    Hey Gary.

    You’ll appreciate this one.

    Just because a former bottom feedin’ Catfish ( The Rangers) tries actin’ like a Shark or a Marlin all of a sudden doesn’t make ‘em into one permanently.

    Heck if things don’t go right the clock might strike 12 and they turn right back into a pumpkin.

  23. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:17 am

    Gary-

    You understand probability especially since you are an Engineer.

    The odds of him pitching like a stud Ace in America for the next 5 to 6 years ?

    Not very good IMO. Not very good at all.

    ;)

  24. Rich in NJ January 19th, 2012 at 6:19 am

    I would have preferred that the Yankees got Darvish and kept Montero. I had thought that was what they’d do, unless Montero went for Upton or Hanley or a proven offensive young star (in a package, of course).

  25. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:19 am

    Gary-

    With the posting fee that comes out ot over 18.5 mil per.

    That’s lofty territory.

    ;)

  26. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:23 am

    Rich-

    I don’t want to get into the Montero debate any more for now but Darvish is a bad bet for the money IMO.

    You could argue that we get just Kuroda and keep Montero while hoping we get Hamels.

    That I could see. Risky also though because who says we get him.

    Could also say that Pineda is not a finished #1 , i.e. Kershaw, etc.

    That is a sound argument too.

    I’m waiting to see what the fullness time shows us.

    P.S. I loved Montero, and I understand about needing the bat too.

  27. Gary January 19th, 2012 at 6:25 am

    MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:19 am
    Gary-

    With the posting fee that comes out ot over 18.5 mil per.

    That’s lofty territory.

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    I access the Posting fee as a cost of doing business.

  28. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:25 am

    By the way, It would not surprise me if darvish has very good season this year.

    It’s the ones after I’d be worried about.

    ;)

  29. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:28 am

    Gary-

    Well a cost of over 18 mil per is pretty expensive buisness.

    Slice it up any way you like. That’s the cost per year.

    I don’t think he’s worth that kind of bread is all.

    Let him prove me wrong over the next 5/6 years.

    ;)

  30. Ys Guy January 19th, 2012 at 6:29 am

    i was gonna ask who broke the lohud, but damn, it looks like i broke it!

  31. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:31 am

    Y’s-

    You’re a chef. Right ?

    You cooked it !!!

    :)

  32. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:32 am

    By the way.

    What the heck are you people doin’ up this early ?

    I thought I was the only one who doesn’t sleep.

    :)

  33. Ys Guy January 19th, 2012 at 6:33 am

    so assuming the Yankees get under the luxury tax threshold in 2014 then go over again in 2015, then the darvish contract’s annual cost to the yankees would have been $20.83M. that’s crazy for a guy who’s never pitched in the majors

  34. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:36 am

    Y’s-

    That’s the way I see it too.

    Big gamble with low probability of a successful outcome at that price.

  35. Ys Guy January 19th, 2012 at 6:38 am

    hafta make the biscuits!!!

  36. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:39 am

    Y’s-

    I start my day with the breakfast of champions.

    A spicy burrito and a strong cup of black coffee.

    :)

  37. Ys Guy January 19th, 2012 at 6:42 am

    mmmmmm coffeeeeeeee!

    i’ve been trying to be good and make myself oatmeal with skim milk and fruit.

    but somedays its eggs, bacan, buttered biscuit …

  38. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:47 am

    Y’s-

    If you want to be good to yourself you’ll stay away from stuff like that.

    I mean the oatmeal, etc.

    That sort of stuff will kill ya’.

    Spicy food is what will keep you alive.

    P.S. You could try cold pizza and beer like GB.

    :)

  39. Ys Guy January 19th, 2012 at 6:53 am

    ok you’ve convinced me, today its huevos rancheros…

  40. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:55 am

    My theory is that spicy food, beer, and exercise flush out all the toxins from your body.

    Leaving you in a perfect state of health.

    Just look at me as an example.

    :)

  41. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:57 am

    Y’s-

    Tee it up and I’ll be right over.

    I truly love that, or chile verde on a Navajo Taco.

    Either will be fine.

    Just make sure the chile is fresh.

    :)

  42. upstate kate January 19th, 2012 at 6:57 am

    mmmmm…send some my way Ys Guy!

  43. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 6:59 am

    Kate-

    Good morning.

    The breakfast club.

    Breakfast at Tiffany’s, or in this case at Y’s.

    :)

  44. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:00 am

    Ill be very surprises if Darvish matches Wilson’s regular season from 2011 in his rookie year……people forget how good CJ was last year because of the postseason.

    Either way swapping Wilson for Darvish in the short term is likely a wash or at best marginal gain for their club.

    Swapping Mitch Moreland for Prince Fielder now……different story.

  45. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:04 am

    Anyone who has ever lived in the SW, or especially NM will understand what I am about to say.

    When we left NM I had chile withdrawl symptoms.

    Almost as bad as getting off Heroin, or Cocaine.

    I begged our friends to send us some for quite some until I could get over the hump.

    Fortunately other supplies are now available.

    :)

  46. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:06 am

    Blake-

    Grits, Country fried taters, sausage and bacon with blueberry pancakes for you ?

  47. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:09 am

    And scrambled eggs with hot sauce of course.

    I almost forgot.

    Duh.

    :(

  48. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:09 am

    MTU,

    Man you nailed it

  49. Benny Blanco January 19th, 2012 at 7:10 am

    to be fair , the rangers are taking more of a risk than the yankees because if it were the yankees that won the bidding you all would be dissecting the hell of out this deal basically saying that darvish would’ve been the worst investment in yankee history. i.e another dice-k.

  50. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:11 am

    Blake-

    Don’t forget. I’m an “honorary” Southerner.

    I know about these things.

    ;)

  51. tomingeorgia January 19th, 2012 at 7:12 am

    MTU,
    Nuthin wrong with cold pizza and beer!

  52. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:13 am

    Tom-

    Did I say there was ?

    Almost as good as leftover Turkey.

    ;)

  53. Benny Blanco January 19th, 2012 at 7:14 am

    While I’m going to miss montero, the yankees did a good thing ( i hope). I just dont think hamels will come here. At some point I think philly might sign him to an extension. Think about the trend thats going on with stud pitchers. Many of us had weaver pegged into the rotation then BAM, the angels extended him. I see the same thing happening with hamels, cain and many others.

  54. tomingeorgia January 19th, 2012 at 7:16 am

    Biscuits and sausage gravy in the morning, then you can march all day.

  55. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:17 am

    Benny-

    The Yankees are in an enviable position going forward.

    Great time to be a Yankee fan IMO.

  56. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:19 am

    Tom-

    I just had breakfast the other day with a hiking buddy of mine who is originall from Georgia.

    His repast of choice: Biscuits and gravy.

    The only thing I would say about marching with after that is that I would want to lead.

    ;)

  57. Ys Guy January 19th, 2012 at 7:20 am

    i make the best grits in new jersey, for whatever that’s worth….then if there’s any leftover i turn it into pepperjack polenta to serve with shrimp gumbo at dinner.

  58. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:20 am

    sp: originally. Althought that’s a lie. he’s originally from his parents in Georgia.

    :)

  59. Benny Blanco January 19th, 2012 at 7:22 am

    MTU,

    Im with you on this one. You have to take risks in life. Would you rather have a cost controlled pitcher with unlimited potential? or potentially sign a pitcher that has never pitched in the AL/US, committing a sick amount of money to only to have him turn into AJ burnett on you?

  60. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:22 am

    And his Mother’s name is probably Mabel rather than Georgia.

    ;)

  61. Ys Guy January 19th, 2012 at 7:22 am

    brand new garden (double the ticket prices!), double the cable tv fees for msg, but the same old knicks… time warner customers got the best of that deal…

  62. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:23 am

    If the Yankees passed on Wilson, Buerle, Darvish etc and maze this trade because they wanted to keep money available for Cole Hamels or Matt Cain then while I don’t really like if…..I can understand that.

    If they made this deal because they want to just save the money …..then it sucks and represents a shift in how the Yankees operate. They would be taking a gamble that Pineda is going to be more valuable over the next 5 years than both Darvish and Montero.

  63. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:25 am

    Benny-

    I think U can be good, possibly even very good.

    Just not 18.5 Million dollars good for 5 to 6 years.

    We’ll see.

    And yes, I am glad to have Pineda although I wish it hadn’t taken Jesus to get him.

    Let’s hope the Yankee brass made the right call.

    :)

  64. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 7:28 am

    What is wrong with a little belt tightening now if it allows you to move more freely (or spend more freely in this case) in the not-so-far future?

    Especially if you have a playoff worthy team to begin with?

  65. DocTodd January 19th, 2012 at 7:28 am

    It’s an awful strategy to hope you are going to sign a player who may or may not enter free agency. The Yankees were proactive in getting Pineda instead of waiting for Hamels to hit FA,which may never happen. Even when players become FAs like Lee, there s no guarantee they sign with us.

  66. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:29 am

    Interested to how Darvish fairs on the face of the sun (Texas in July)

  67. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:31 am

    VN-

    IMO. Nothing. Gotta live to fight another day, or you don’t even get to fight.

    And yeah. We’re gonna be in the playoffs AGAIN in the meantime.

    P.S. This from a greedy fan.

    :)

  68. 108 stitches January 19th, 2012 at 7:31 am

    The “analysts” (not to be confused with talent evaluators) will see the Wild Card come out of the AL West in this season unless Selig opts to add another Wild Card team.

  69. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 7:31 am

    If the Yankees ahd signed Darvish to roughly the same contract as the Rangers did, you have to add luxury tax money to that.

    If the Yankees can get their spending to where the luxury tax is lowered or eliminated, that is that much more money they have available to use on a player or players.

    It is short term sacrifice for better positioning long term and it’s not a lifetime “diet” here we’re talking about.

  70. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:32 am

    Blake-

    Good point.

    He’s from the land of the rising Sun not the midday, summer Texas Sun.

    ;)

  71. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:33 am

    “It’s an awful strategy to hope you are going to sign a player who may or may not enter free agency.”

    I don’t disagree….but they coukd have been proactive by signing CJ Wilson or Yu Darvish also and kept Montero. We’ll see how it plays out.

  72. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 7:34 am

    Doc Todd -

    Precisely. And with parity, the money is more evenly distributed among all teams, and the competition is a little more balanced so more teams have the chance of getting to the playoffs each year. Players will stay with a team that is competitive, rather than go the Yankees “to get their ring.” (Which I always hated anyway!)

  73. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:35 am

    “What is wrong with a little belt tightening now if it allows you to move more freely (or spend more freely in this case) in the not-so-far future?”

    Nothing if that’s what they are doing……Im just not sure that’s why they did it.

  74. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:35 am

    VN-

    I believe you have nailed it.

    That is what is driving this. Not a permanent cheap out. It’s a well thought out strategy which will allow them to be even more sucessful long term.

    ;)

  75. upstate kate January 19th, 2012 at 7:35 am

    The perception is that the Angels and Rangers made the exciting moves this off season, but much like the red sox last year, have they really improved their teams that much?
    Rangers got Darvish, but lost CJ.
    Pujols would improve any team, but 1B wasn’t a primary need for the Angels, was it? When they have Trumbo?

  76. austinmac January 19th, 2012 at 7:37 am

    MTU,

    Hey watch the Mabel jokes. My parents–Mabel and Angus. Boy, I must be old.

    I think Chad breaks the blog so we can realize how much we miss it.

  77. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 7:38 am

    blake -

    They obviously didn’t see Wilson as being good enough for the money and length of contract. And after Dice-K and Igawa, did you really see the Yankees being gung-ho to go down that path again so soon? The risk for the investment, especially in light of what they are trying to do with the long-term?

  78. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:41 am

    It’s at times like this, when we are discussing the buisness side of baseball, that I miss SJ’s input the most.

    He really had insight into that with his background.

    It really was invaluable.

    Sorry he isn’t here to enlighten us on the Yankee’s fianacial and buisness strategy.

    I’m sure he could help.

    :(

  79. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:41 am

    Its 18.5 million per year total…..but we have to remember that for luxury tax purposes he’ll cost the same as Kuroda will in 2012.

    Considering that both Pineda and Darvish are unproven and essentially “prospects”…..then I might would rather have had Darvish and Montero than Pineda. Pineda does have more upside though……so really hoping he hits it.

  80. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:42 am

    Sorry Mac.

    I’m reformed now. I’ll never make a Mabel joke again. I promise.

    :fingerscrossed:

    :)

  81. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 7:43 am

    blake -

    Why else?

    What else makes any sense that wouldn’t be going out on a long limb?

    The simplest explanation is usually the most accurate.

  82. austinmac January 19th, 2012 at 7:43 am

    I read in the Dallas paper, one-sixth of the posting fee in counted as payroll. Therefore, the Rangers payroll went up $8.6M in addition to the Yu salary. Never heard that before.

  83. DocTodd January 19th, 2012 at 7:43 am

    I would love to see Fielder in pinstripes,he is one of those rare talents to hit the open market,but it’s most likely a longshot that it happens.

  84. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 7:44 am

    Kuroda is a one-year fill-in piece.

    Darvish would have been a long-term investment.

  85. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:45 am

    If Fielder is smart he’ll take the money and the years and sign with Washington.

    ;)

  86. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:45 am

    “They obviously didn’t see Wilson as being good enough for the money and length of contract. And after Dice-K and Igawa, did you really see the Yankees being gung-ho to go down that path again so soon? The risk for the investment, especially in light of what they are trying to do with the long-term?”

    Again I like the move they made a lot better if they made it because they just didn’t like the players available and want the chance at Hamels or Cain IF they hit the market….that’s the same type gamble they made with CC and it worked…..but Im not sure that’s the case

  87. pat January 19th, 2012 at 7:47 am

    “Readers Digest version” scouting report…..

    CJNitkowskiCJ Nitkowski
    Just watched Cespedes turn around 97 for a long HR. Lightening quick hands, looks pretty bad on off speed. MLB teammate told me “no balance”

  88. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:47 am

    “Why else?”

    I think they did it to avoid having to sign Cole Hamels or Matt Cain…..not so they could

  89. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:49 am

    Mac,

    I haven’t heard that either…..interesting.

  90. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:51 am

    If the Phillies are going to send Brown back to AAA again then the Yankees should see what it would take to acquire him and make it a KLong project……he’s 23 and has some of the same issues as Granderson had from what I’ve seen.

  91. randy l. January 19th, 2012 at 7:52 am

    mtu-

    with what’s happened with wang, hughes, joba, kenedy, etc aren’t you even a little concerned that the yankees will be the ones developing pineda now ?

  92. yanks61 January 19th, 2012 at 7:56 am

    I’m sure that I’m going to get hit over the head about this idea, but since the thread is about 2nd base and Cano, let me toss it out there and let you guys have a good whack at it.

    With Jeter gone in a few years, would it make any sense to see if Cano could be converted to SS? I know, by then it may be well too late in his career, even if he had the necessary range, to move him over. But it’s generally true, is it not, that it’s easier to find a 2nd BB then a SS. The Yanks have some potential candidates in-house to play 2nd, as we’ve seen from Chad’s post above. In addition, I would think they’d have more opportunities to pick up a 2nd BB on the trade/free agent market then they would to get a SS.

    Just a thought for the future while we’re mulling over the present. Be interested in hearing what you folks think. I know, I’m stupid and/or crazy. But I’d like to know why, exactly, the idea stinks. Thanks!

  93. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 7:56 am

    And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to avoid HAVING to sign a Hamels or a Cain.

    I believe the long-term goal of the Yankees was to NOT have to go to FA every year for a pitcher.

    No guarantees that they’ll be able to make good on that, but they sure seem to have a good chance with the lineup of pitchers they have. I know there’s lots of hoping, but as we’ve seen in the past, FA signings don’t always guarantee success either.

  94. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 7:56 am

    I like what the Yankees seem to be doing by emphasizing the pitching side of the equation.

    It’s where they have been forced to make some pretty ugly moves in recent years ( CC and Mussina aside).

    I like the in-house approach and the stockpiling.

    The game is changing more towards old school baseball right now.

    Pitching, D, speed, small ball.

    They have enough O to hold them for a while.

    It’s easier to find an adequate bat to plug a hole than to find stud young pitching.

    As the Yanks gain greater control over their financial destiny they will continue to backfill their needs thru FA.

    It’s a long term process made more difficult by some crappy contracts.

    But this is a path to get there while still being highly competitve.

    What’s not to like ?

    The GMS days are gone for now.

    I’m happy and grateful they are forward looking.

    :)

  95. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:56 am

    As Sherman and other have written…..this trade was probably as much about the 189 threshold as it was about anything else. I don’t think they would have traded their best young bat to avoid spending money otherwise.

  96. blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:59 am

    “With Jeter gone in a few years, would it make any sense to see if Cano could be converted to SS?”

    Its a fine thought but I don’t think it would be a good idea…..he’s a great defensive 2B and would likely be a mediocre to poor SS…..he has the arm strength but the footwork is totally different and its a more demanding position. Robbie is fine where he is and has a chance to be the best 2B of all time IMO.

  97. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:00 am

    Randy-

    Of course. Probably more than a little.

    I’m hopeful that Rothschild is way better than Eiland, and that the Yankees will continue to improve their MiLB pitching coaching.

    If they don’t they are gonna waste their best asset.Their young arms.

    Hopefully they have learned a few lessons from the first wave.

    I’m betting that even they can’t be that dumb so as not to.

    ;)

  98. Ys Guy January 19th, 2012 at 8:02 am

    i wasnt aware that 1/6 of the posting fee counts as salary. so assuming the yankees got under the threshold in 2014 then went back over in 2015, darvish’s total package would have cost the yankees $136.85M with an annual cost over 6 years of $22.8M. does anyone other than cc make that?

  99. blake January 19th, 2012 at 8:02 am

    “And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to avoid HAVING to sign a Hamels or a Cain.”

    True….but we will see their intentions next winter should either guy come available. I think they could have mitigated the risk of HAVING to sign then without trading Montero but chose not to due to dollars. Now if they did that so that they coukd sign Hamels if they wanted then fine…..

  100. pat January 19th, 2012 at 8:04 am

    CC looking like he’s dropped a few lbs.

    CC Sabathia
    “@AmberSabathia: 40/40 club opening! http://pic.twitter.com/4zWIi2YV” The opening was crazy the 40/40 is back!

  101. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:04 am

    Blake-

    Next year I think someone showed that there is potentially 50 Mill coming off the books.

  102. yanks61 January 19th, 2012 at 8:06 am

    OK, thanks Blake, that makes plenty of sense.

    You do often weaken two positions (at least defensively) when making moves like that.

    I know we’re still a few years away from having to worry about that and just maybe Nunez will surprise us.

    Anyway, back to regularily scheduled programming – Darvish/Pineda and Montero.

  103. Ys Guy January 19th, 2012 at 8:07 am

    mtu i beleive that list included taking aj off the list. he may be gone but most of his cost won’t be. so it’s basically mo’s money (assuming he retires) plus the difference between swisher’s money and whoever they replace him with (if they replace him.) thats nowhere near $50M

  104. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:11 am

    Y’s-

    I think there were a couple of other possibilities too.

    For example, getting rid of Soriano (10 Mill).

    IMO, we really do not need him. maybe someone else does ?

    There were a few other bits and pieces too if but I do not recall them all.

    YT is usually very good at that sort of stuff. He’s not here right now.

  105. blake January 19th, 2012 at 8:12 am

    MTU,

    True….

  106. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 8:13 am

    No, blake.

    If their pitching works out well this year, they will not HAVE TO sign Hamels or Cain, so it will not show their intentions in the way you think.

    And yes, of course their goal is to get to that threshold. That’s not the issue. The threshold does not exist in some vacuum. Getting to that threshold in 2014 gives them more financial flexibility BEYOND that. There is a long-term purpose to reaching that threshold which would allow the Yankees to get more for their money in the long-term.

  107. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:14 am

    Blake-

    So let’s do a “Bob Marley” for now.

    “Don’t worry. Be Happy.”

    ;)

  108. Yankee Trader January 19th, 2012 at 8:14 am

    Good morning Lohudders breakfast club. To whose house do I need Scotty to beam me down?.

    MTU-

    I’m here. I’m here. Just reading thru some of the early morning stuff since the server was down last night.

    Let me look at Cots.

  109. 108 stitches January 19th, 2012 at 8:15 am

    blake January 19th, 2012 at 7:51 am
    If the Phillies are going to send Brown back to AAA again then the Yankees should see what it would take to acquire him and make it a KLong project……he’s 23 and has some of the same issues as Granderson had from what I’ve seen.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Sounds sensible. At this point the Yankees can afford to work on Dominic Brown’s talent and deal what Mark Newman, Brian Cashman, and Stick Michael believe what young pitching can be moved to get Brown.
    Adding good INF and OF prospects is the preferred way at least for this year.

  110. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:15 am

    YT-

    Seek and ye shall find.

    :)

  111. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:16 am

    Blake-

    FWIW. CB does not like Brown’s swing.

    ;)

  112. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:17 am

    Randy-

    Any comments on my reply to your question ?

  113. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:19 am

    Randy-

    Bullcrap ?

    Wishful thinking ?

    Possible ?

    Spot on ?

  114. upstate kate January 19th, 2012 at 8:20 am

    Pat
    that link wouldn’t work for me

  115. randy l. January 19th, 2012 at 8:23 am

    mtu-

    nova has emerged nicely, but thats probably because he wasn’t given special treatment. special treatment by the yankees might be the kiss of death for starters.

    the yankees did a nice job with robertson. of course robertson being a relief pitcher helps because that seems to be something the yankees do better than develop starters.

    this is partly reason why i see the bullpen as the final resting spot for pineda . at this point in time , the yankees best approach to developing young aces might be to let other teams do it and then get them already developed either in free agency or in trades.

    by seriously, with what the yankees have done with hughes, wang, kennedy, and joba in the last
    five years why would anyone be confident the yankees will be able to teach pineda a change up.

    cashman himself says that the key to the trade. i don’t think pineda will ever get a good change up and will struggle in a starting role. he has a really bad one now from what i’ve read. i’m totally puzzled why so many on the blog think that pineda is going to be able to master a good change up when he hasn’t yet.

    the kid’s been pitching for a long time in pro ball at this point. being a two pitch pitcher might be who he is. i think it’s probably who he is. he doesn’t seem to have the controlled delivery that allows for tweaking pitches.

    it looks like he has a live arm that creates a lot of velocity. i don’t see anything that says he’s going to be able to develop touch and finesse.

    as i’ve said repeatedly ,this trade has the potential to be one of the worst trades in baseball history.

  116. Yankee Trader January 19th, 2012 at 8:27 am

    Per Cots:

    Rivera 15M
    Swisher 10.5M
    Kuroda 10M
    Feliciano 4M
    Garcia 4M
    Jones 2M

    That’s 45.5M off books

    But some regulars are due more money in 2013:

    ARod 27-28M + potential 6M for homeruns
    Jeter 16-17M
    Cano 14-15M
    Soriano 11-14M
    Granderson 10-13M

    The rest would be monies for contracts to the current arb eligibles like Martin, Robertson, etc

    So it’s more like 35M off the books if Rivera retires, and Soriano doesn’t opt out. Then there’s Burnett.

    Personally I think, Cain may sign an extension and Hamels will test the FA market and go west, possibly to sign with the Dodgers under new ownership.

  117. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 8:29 am

    Funny, I read that Pineda was learning the CU late last season and seemed to be doing fine with it. Not great, but fine.

    Also, I don’t think it is entirely fair to blame the Yankees 100% for what happened with Hughes and Joba.

    Seriously don’t want to open the discussion on Wang once again.

    My point being, anyway, that there is side A, side B, and somewhere in the middle is what actually occurred. And being outsiders, we won’t ever know what the “somewhere in the middle” is.

    And to make such sweeping negative judgments on a pitcher that almost everyone outside of the Lohud blog is very positive about is interesting to say the least.

  118. MaineYankee January 19th, 2012 at 8:29 am

    as i’ve said repeatedly ,this trade has the potential to be one of the worst trades in baseball history.

    ————————————————————–

    For Seattle.

  119. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:31 am

    Randy-

    Your answer to me seems to point to somewhere between Bullcrap and wishful thinking. Maybe a smidge towards the wishful thinking side.

    I respect your opinion but this time I disagree a bit.

    2 reasons:

    1) Rothschild

    2) The fact that I believe almost anyone can learn a split. It’s an easy pitch to learn, and there are 2 guys on the Yankees staff who throw good ones in
    Freddy and Hiroki. So, if Larry fails to get it done, maybe those guys will help Hughes and Pineda.

    It’s certainly just a theory but it might just work out.

    You are right about the dangers hidden in Pineda’s mechanics IMO.

    That, and in the fact, that young pitchers always carry more risk than established ones.

    Let’s just hope things go my way rather than yours.

    ;)

  120. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 8:31 am

    And the worst trade in baseball history?

    Sheesh.

  121. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:33 am

    YT-

    Thanks. That should leave us not only with trade chips but money to work with.

    Cool beans !

    :)

  122. Yankee Trader January 19th, 2012 at 8:33 am

    Oh geez, here we go again,just when this kid named Montero was becoming a figment of my imagination!! :)

  123. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:35 am

    VN-

    Don’t you know Randy by now ?

    He is a contrarian by nature.

    He likes to stir the pot and play Devil’s advocate.

    No idea if he really is the Devil though. I’m sure GB thinks so.

    :)

  124. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:37 am

    YT-

    I am a figment of your imagination.

    I’m not really here.

    ;)

  125. randy l. January 19th, 2012 at 8:39 am

    mtu-

    didn’t see your comments.

    yes i think the yankees have learned from their first wave of pitchers going through their development program, but if you remember i said the yankees were bad at it at the time while others were touting what they were doing.

    i was bashing cashman for firing neil allen and hiring eiland. all allen has done is have all the rays starters go through him in their development.

    rothschild seems like a professional pitching coach, but i’m not sure anything has changed at the minor league level with developing pitchers. you have to admit hughes is a total mystery man at this point.

    i realize i’m taking what seems an extreme position about pineda, but i got it right with the first wave of starters the yankees tried to develop, and the people on the blog who said the yankees were doing great got it all wrong.

    i’m not sure the yankees have learned anything about developing pitchers at this point. if they were confident of banuelos and betances i don’t think they would have traded montero for pineda.
    so the yankees themselves don’t seem to be too confident of their own ability to develop starters.

  126. Ys Guy January 19th, 2012 at 8:39 am

    yt thats fine but you have to replace swisher and one of garcia/kuroda and jones, so that knocks that $45M down by about $15M, then you have to deal with those raises.

  127. randy l. January 19th, 2012 at 8:40 am

    should have said “learned enough about developing pitchers”

  128. tomingeorgia January 19th, 2012 at 8:41 am

    Worst trade in baseball history? Babe Ruth to the Yankees for $100,000 (1,100,000 in today’s dollars).

  129. blake January 19th, 2012 at 8:41 am

    “FWIW. CB does not like Brown’s swing.”

    I don’t either right now……its long and has a hole in it the size of Texas…but as a project Id love to try it if the Phillies wouldn’t ask to much in return. He’s very talented …..

  130. Yankee Trader January 19th, 2012 at 8:41 am

    Let me post this again to remind us why it behooves the Yankees, to be prepared to be under the 2014 LT threshold of 189M imposed by the new CBA agreement. This new agreement really rewards the Yankees primarily, and IMHO, this is the direction they are heading. Don’t get your hopes up for any long term expensive contracts, unless they can unload some contracts.

    From NY Post, Joel Sherman article from early December:

    For if they are at $189 million or less for the three seasons from 2014-16, they not only avoid paying one cent in luxury tax, which would rise to 50 percent for them as repeat offenders, but they also would get roughly $40 million in savings via the to-be-implemented market disqualification revenue sharing program. However, only teams under the luxury-tax threshold get reimbursed in this program, which is designed to prevent big markets such as Toronto and Washington from receiving revenue sharing dollars, which in turn will lower how much teams such as the Yanks pay (as long as they are under the threshold).

    And even if they just went under $189 million for 2014 before going over again in 2015, the Yankees would receive serious benefits. They would get about $10 million in the revenue sharing disqualification program. Also, by simply going under the threshold once, the Yankees would go back to having a 17.5 percent tax rather than the 50 percent that begins in 2014 for them if they never go under. Keep in mind that since the luxury tax went to 40 percent for them in 2005, the Yankees have averaged paying $25.75 million in tax annually.

    Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....z1juYwqmI7

  131. randy l. January 19th, 2012 at 8:42 am

    “And the worst trade in baseball history?

    Sheesh.”

    if montero is a perennial all star with a 15 year career and pineda ends up a relief pitcher, what would you call it?

  132. blake January 19th, 2012 at 8:44 am

    “And yes, of course their goal is to get to that threshold. That’s not the issue. The threshold does not exist in some vacuum. Getting to that threshold in 2014 gives them more financial flexibility BEYOND that.”

    Im not denying any of that….we shall see how it plays out.

  133. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:45 am

    Randy-

    Even taking your point as true. That has to change then.

    The young guys can learn from the veterans.

    I’m sure these guys exchange info. all the time.

    They’d be stupid if they didn’t.

    Hughes is gonna bounceback bigtime this season IMO.

    Most of his problems stemmed from 2 sources:

    Injuries

    and

    Too much tinkering.

    He’s healthy (I hope).

    And if he’s smart he’ll get back to basics and simplify things a bit, i.e. FB, curve, and split.

    That’s my Rx for fixing him.

    Split is piece of cake to learn. Just ask Cloninger.

    ;)

  134. Yankee Trader January 19th, 2012 at 8:45 am

    yt thats fine but you have to replace swisher and one of garcia/kuroda and jones, so that knocks that $45M down by about $15M, then you have to deal with those raises.
    ———————————–
    Yes I know that, but those Garcia/Kuroda spots will hopefully be Betances/Banuelos, Jones is replaceable, and we’ll have to see what happens with Swisher. Unfortunately Soriano will stay to collect his 14M.

  135. Bret The Hitman January 19th, 2012 at 8:45 am

    I just realized last night Dave Eiland is the new pitching coach in KC. Wasn’t he the pitching coach who had custody over Hughes during 2010 when Hughes had a lights out first half? Maybe the Royals organization will gun for Hughes. Although Billy Butler is likely not in play, they have plenty of offense to deal.

    Alex Gordon?

    What about Hughes and Gardner for Gordon? Would they go for that? It’s a clear downgrade for them on offense but they need pitching and with Eiland there Hughes could be a difference maker.

    Gordon only has 2 more years of control left on his contract.

  136. randy l. January 19th, 2012 at 8:46 am

    ” The fact that I believe almost anyone can learn a split. It’s an easy pitch to learn,”

    huh

    a split is easy to learn?

    everything i’v read says they are going to try to teach pineda a change.

  137. BD (Boston Dave) January 19th, 2012 at 8:47 am

    Jerkface hacked the blog in protest of SOPA and DARVISH.

  138. Best To Ever Do It January 19th, 2012 at 8:47 am

    Also, I don’t think it is entirely fair to blame the Yankees 100% for what happened with Hughes and Joba.
    ——————————————

    100% no but they take a majority of the blame. The stuff they did with Joba in 09 was ridiculous.

  139. Best To Ever Do It January 19th, 2012 at 8:50 am

    randy l. January 19th, 2012 at 8:42 am

    “And the worst trade in baseball history?

    Sheesh.”

    if montero is a perennial all star with a 15 year career and pineda ends up a relief pitcher, what would you call it?

    ———————————-

    “bad luck and pitching is unpredictable” That’s what you’ll hear if it doesn’t work out.

  140. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:51 am

    Randy-

    The split can act like a change then. OK ? And it is easy to learn. It’s basically all in the grip no “feel’ thing involved. If your hands are large enough it should be even easier.

    The circle change is a “feel” pitch. That’s what makes it tough to master.

    I hope they move away from it for that reason.

    Don’t know if they will.

    ;)

  141. Best To Ever Do It January 19th, 2012 at 8:52 am

    MaineYankee January 19th, 2012 at 8:29 am

    as i’ve said repeatedly ,this trade has the potential to be one of the worst trades in baseball history.

    ————————————————————–

    For Seattle.

    ——————————————

    How at worst they are getting a guy that will hit .290 20-25 HR and 90-100 rbis. That’s at worst.

  142. randy l. January 19th, 2012 at 8:54 am

    “Split is piece of cake to learn. Just ask Cloninger.”

    mtu-

    the split is easy for someone with long fingers and the right throwing motion. he did teach it to jack armstrong in about two minutes, but not everyone can do it. pineda probaby has the fingers to get the grip down, but there must be some reason the mariners didn’t have him work on it.

    oh yeah, that would have slowed him down and not allowed him to get the quick success that would allow them to spin him off quickly while he looked better than he was because of safeco.

    seriously, it doesn’t concern you in the least that i got it right before with yankee pitching development and most on the blog didn’t including you.

    and now all the people on the blog who got it wrong before are taking the same position again that the yankees know what they are doing.

  143. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 8:54 am

    MTU –
    I do know Randy by now. But this time, I not sure he’s just stirring the pot. He sounds pretty adamant.

  144. Shame Spencer January 19th, 2012 at 8:56 am

    Getting under the $189 million mark is going to rely quite a bit on some of our players retiring.

  145. upstate kate January 19th, 2012 at 8:57 am

    any guesses for “guest post of the day” ?
    Yankees financial outlook?
    A focus on minor leaguers excluding Montero?
    Fantasy baseball camps?
    Saber stuff?

  146. blake January 19th, 2012 at 8:57 am

    “if montero is a perennial all star with a 15 year career and pineda ends up a relief pitcher, what would you call it?”

    Well yea…..but neither of those things have happened yet so let’s just see what happens ;)

  147. Yankee Trader January 19th, 2012 at 8:57 am

    Bret-

    I don’t see any reason why the Royals would want to trade Gordon who made 1.4M last year. Maybe Billy Butler, who jumps from 3 to 8M this year.

    It looks like the DH bat will come from a list of Matsui, Ibanez, Vlad, Damon[possibly]-those that “might” be willing to take a pay cut to get some playing time on the Yankees.

    I’m hoping it comes from a bat in return for ridding themselves of Burnett.

  148. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 8:59 am

    Randy-

    Perhaps you are right.

    Time will tell about that.

    Just like you factor in me being a little too optimistic I think you are being too pessimistic here.

    And anyway, What’s done is done.

    I have said on numerous ocassions that this was a very risky trade.

    I doubt anyone thinks differently.

    P.S. I would love to see them get Allen back.

    Let’s just hope it somehow breaks our way.

  149. Villa Nova-Ya January 19th, 2012 at 8:59 am

    Randy -

    You don’t know that either will happen.

    It’s really a wonder how the Yankees manage to survive as a franchise, since they apparently haven’t got a clue from top to bottom.

    I’m not rooting against Pineda because I think the Yankees should have kept Montero. Seems like you are hoping for this deal to go up in smoke to prove you are smarter than they are.

  150. blake January 19th, 2012 at 9:00 am

    “Getting under the $189 million mark is going to rely quite a bit on some of our players retiring.”

    That…..but moreso on the young players panning out. For them to have a shot at it they need the rotation and bullpen aside from Sabathia to be pretty much all in house…+.that’ll offset the large contracts enough to do it in theory.

    If they sign Cano then they’ll probably have 60-70 million to spend on the 19 or so spots……if 11 of the 12 pitchers are cheap home growns then they’ll have a shot.

  151. MTU January 19th, 2012 at 9:01 am

    New thread —->

  152. randy l. January 19th, 2012 at 9:02 am

    mtu

    i havent heard a thing about the yankees teaching pineda a splitter.

    if you’re holding on to hope for that, aren’t you kind of admitting the yankees got a pitcher who is a project when they had a ready made future offensive star in montero.

    montero is possibly a better hitter than anyone on the yankees right now. he might be better than cano. montero might have been the best yankee hitter this year. they traded him for a guy who you are hoping learns a splitter though the yankees are planning on teaching him a change up?

    yup, i’m the crazy one :)

  153. Yankee Trader January 19th, 2012 at 9:04 am

    I need to change the subject from split vs CU, that kid we just traded-what’s his name, the dreaded luxury tax.

    Does anyone here think that Cano might not be the Yankees future 2nd baseman?

    Might he be playing 3rd when A-Rod becomes a DH or is gone prematurely thru retirement? Would it be more beneficial for him to be at 3rd and just replace his glove at 2nd?

    Thoughts?

  154. Erin January 19th, 2012 at 9:04 am

    BD (Boston Dave) January 19th, 2012 at 8:47 am
    Jerkface hacked the blog in protest of SOPA and DARVISH.

    ******************

    :lol:

  155. Ys Guy January 19th, 2012 at 9:08 am

    when you look at all the changes in luxury tax and revenue sharing you can see that the yankees pushed for the relief that is available if they get under the threshold. basically the yankees and socks are the only teams that pay that luxury tax. other teams pushed to raise the penalty for going over, so the yankees and maybe the socks pushed back and got a big bonus for themselves if they comply with other team’s wishes that they get under the threshold. there was a harsher penalty set up, so the teams that were threatened wanted a big break in costs for complying. the yankees probably were the main mover in creating this reward for getting under the threshold, so obviously they intend to get under it.

    this is pretty radical if you think about it, the players allowed the owners to create a big bonus for adhering to a ‘soft cap’ that if successful becomes in practice a hard salary cap, something the players have gone on strike in the past to prevent. it really seems like the owners may have won a big concession in this contract and given the players a few more days off around the ASB in return.

  156. crorkz August 5th, 2014 at 12:45 pm

    12u1x5 I am so grateful for your post.Thanks Again. Great.

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