Pinch hitting: Delia Enriquez
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 19, 2012 
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Up next in our Pinch Hitters series is Delia Enriquez, who describes herself as “a Yankees fan since the early days of Derek Jeter.” She’s currently working as managing editor for the blog Yankees Fans Unite and you can find her on Twitter using the name @dfiregirl4.
For her post, Enriquez took a stance I didn’t expect from anyone: She wrote a post in defense of the Yankees most controversial starting pitcher.
—
A.J Burnett.
If you say his name during the regular season, you’ll get an in-depth conversation on where he should pitch in the rotation, how his curveball can be effective, or why we even have him in the first place.
If you mention A.J Burnett’s name during the off-season, you’ll get the many reasons he should be traded to a different team.
During the Winter Meetings, it was reported that the Yankees would shop Burnett but only eat $8 million of the $33 million on his contract. Fans took to Twitter and Facebook agreeing that Burnett needed to go.
I know that this is an unpopular opinion, but I do not feel that the Yankees should trade Burnett. To back up my opinion, I have decided to compile a list as to why the Yankees shouldn’t trade Burnett based on opinion, observation and mathematics:
1. A.J Isn’t Pitching as Bad as We Think: Every now and then a pitcher will have a rough patch (or a rough month) where nothing will go right. Sometimes as fans we forget that Burnett is human, and he normally makes mistakes and gets frustrated. Looking at his last few seasons with the Yankees, Burnett has had a rough patch in June (2010) & August (2011). Basically fans scrutinize Burnett based on an inflated ERA, but hypothetically if Burnett didn’t pitch in August, how much different would his ERA have been? I decided to calculate Burnett’s ERA in 2011. If I had excluded August (when he had an 11 + ERA) my findings would show that Burnett would have had a 4.24 ERA for the whole season versus the 5.15 ERA he finished the season with. The difference that one month makes, huh?
2. Burnett Comes Through In Dire Situations: When the Yankees need help, Burnett seems to come through. During the 2009 World Series, Burnett played a big part. His ERA may not have been sparkling, but going 1-1 vs. the Phillies really helped. We also cannot forget the Game 4 ALDS series vs. the Tigers in which A.J saved us from elimination for the time being. At first it looked like A.J was going to send us home early, but he quickly got his act together and dominated the Tigers. Burnett may make mistakes, but he sure knows when to pick up his game when he has to.
3. Larry Rothschild: In the 2010 offseason, the Yankees hired pitching coach Larry Rothschild after firing Dave Eiland. I figured that Rothschild would be just the person to help A.J out. In 2011, A.J’s numbers improved slightly and to me it felt as if Burnett had a bit more confidence in his pitches. He wasn’t as afraid to go to his curveball and it proved to be an effective move for him as he racked up 173 K’s versus the 143 K’s he had in 2010. If Burnett and Rothschild can work together again in 2012, I believe it would be a good thing for A.J and a good thing for the team. Plus, maybe Rothschild can help Burnett figure out how not to throw 100 pitches before the 5th inning.
4. The Yankees Hate Facing Him: We all remember the reason why the Yankees acquired Burnett, right? It wasn’t just because he had a good record or that he was a strikeout machine. It was because the Yankees hate to face him. When the Yankees faced Burnett as a Marlin or a Blue Jay, the Yankees could never seem to figure him out. I bet if A.J pitched a simulated game versus his teammates, they wouldn’t be able to hit him. If the Yankees let go of Burnett, especially to an AL East team, then the Yankees would have to face him all the time, which is what they are trying to avoid. Let’s face it;, A.J Burnett would still haunt them even if he wasn’t on the team.
Burnett may not be the best pitcher in the league, but he knows what he’s doing. He’s a very hard worker and it shows when he is on the mound (even if he gets frustrated sometimes). When you look at the proverbial glass, I see it as half full because Burnett has so much to offer to this ball club. He just needs a chance to prove what he’s worth.
Associated Press photo
I need to change the subject from split vs CU, that kid we just traded-what’s his name, the dreaded luxury tax.
Does anyone here think that Cano might not be the Yankees future 2nd baseman?
Might he be playing 3rd when A-Rod becomes a DH or is gone prematurely thru retirement? Would it be more beneficial for him to be at 3rd and just replace his glove at 2nd?
Thoughts?
Interesting post……but a big part of the reason the Yankees should look to move AJ is because the worst of him may be yet to come……his velocity has decreased each of the last 4 seasons and he doesn’t command the ball nearly well enough to make up for it…..that and he’s one of the very few areas the Yankees coukd actually shave payroll with a trade.
I like AJ….but however you want to slice the numbers up he’s been one of the worst pitchers in baseball over the last two seasons and he’s almost 35…..it’d be different if they didn’t have better and cheaper options to replace him.
Thanks for the post Delia but I have to disagree.
You can’t hide from the fact that AJ Burnett put up 2 of the worst SEASONS in baseball and that he got paid handsomely to to do that.
He’s good guy to go fishing with, or drink a few brews but I don’t want to see him as a starter for the NYY’s any longer.
If we’re lucky. He’ll disappear.
burnett?
aren’t we all just counting the time until he’s gone?
he is what he is at this point.
“Getting under the $189 million mark is going to rely quite a bit on some of our players retiring.”
That…..but moreso on the young players panning out. For them to have a shot at it they need the rotation and bullpen aside from Sabathia to be pretty much all in house…+.that’ll offset the large contracts enough to do it in theory.
If they sign Cano then they’ll probably have 60-70 million to spend on the 19 or so spots……if 11 of the 12 pitchers are cheap home growns then they’ll have a shot.
kate
Can’t open the CC picture? How about this one?
https://twitter.com/#!/AmberSabathia/status/159866341455708160/photo/1
repost:
when you look at all the changes in luxury tax and revenue sharing you can see that the yankees pushed for the relief that is available if they get under the threshold. basically the yankees and socks are the only teams that pay that luxury tax. other teams pushed to raise the penalty for going over, so the yankees and maybe the socks pushed back and got a big bonus for themselves if they comply with other team’s wishes that they get under the threshold. there was a harsher penalty set up, so the teams that were threatened wanted a big break in costs for complying. the yankees probably were the main mover in creating this reward for getting under the threshold, so obviously they intend to get under it.
this is pretty radical if you think about it, the players allowed the owners to create a big bonus for adhering to a ‘soft cap’ that if successful becomes in practice a hard salary cap, something the players have gone on strike in the past to prevent. it really seems like the owners may have won a big concession in this contract and given the players a few more days off around the ASB in return.
Delia-
Enjoyed your controversial post.
However, based on his last two seasons and fading by June one year and August last year, he’ll probably be playing out the rest of his $33M “bloated” contract by the trading deadline if not sooner.
sorry delia, it may be well written and all, but i just can’t read another analysis of aj burnett.
OK. We all paid our courtesies to Delia.
Next post.
Thanks Pat
Quite the good looking couple. CC does look thinner, but I will reserve judgement until I see him in his uni.
But a well written attempt at defending AJ nonetheless
Look AJ has been accountable…he’s been a good teammate ….he’s done everything the Yankees would have liked except be worth what he’s paid….and that’s not his fault really.
I think AJ tries….I think he really cares and wants to be better….it just is what it is. Most guys would kill to have the career he’s had…..he’s just on the tail end of it now…..
Delia- very nice job.
Just do yourself a huge favor today and stay away from the comments section.
Cespedes hit his first homer last night……stock up!
Sorry, but I have to go, but predictions for the day, subject to intense scrutiny:
Fielder, Boras and Lerner have a “three-way” conversation and a 6-7 year deal with an opt out at 3 gets worked out with the Nats.
Cespedes gets signed by the Marlins, but the Cubs make a serious push for him.
Roy Oswalt stays in the NL and signs with the Cardinals for 6-7M with incentives.
Either Matsui signs as DH with the Yankees or a batter is brought back thru a trade involving Burnett.
Jorge Soler-have no clue.
Until later. Feel free to respond. Have a great day all
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 1h #yankees looking to spend $1-2M on dh now. But if they can trade aj (and save maybe $10M of $33M), equation changes
True dat
Blake-
It was off of a 97 MPH heater.
Someone said that he struggles with OS stuff and plate discipline.
Soler is probably a better bet though further away.
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 1h #yankees looking to spend $1-2M on dh now. But if they can trade aj (and save maybe $10M of $33M), equation changes
——
interesting
Joba_62 Yepppppp, it’s COLD http://twitter.com/Joba_62/sta.....80/photo/1
MTU,
I just don’t know enough about either of them to really say….I would be interestsd in Cespedes for the right price because of the risk/reward type thing. I think Soler is a no brainer on a minor league deal…..if that’s what he’s asking for.
Blake-
fingers crossed.
Blake-
Just saw your post about filling the DH spot and i’m not Jon Heyman.
That was my prediction one minute before you posted that.
“Cespedes hit his first homer last night……stock up! ”
I posted this earlier……
CJNitkowskiCJ Nitkowski
Just watched Cespedes turn around 97 for a long HR. Lightening quick hands, looks pretty bad on off speed. MLB teammate told me “no balance”
On AJ that is.
Im expecting Boras to leak to Heyman to mention the Yanks name in connection to Fielder soon if for no other reason than to prod the Nats along.
Pat,
Sorry I missed that
Thanks pat.
I saw it earlier just did not remeber who posted it.
Blake-
Prod in what way ?
By all accounts they made him a very generous offer. Way better than anyone else’s.
They’d be foolish to bid against themselves.
Of course, that’s Boras’s specialty.
Yankees @YankeeSource 6h Same DR scout: “Let’s see Cespedes hit something other than a FB hard, then we’ll talk.”
Yankees @YankeeSource 7h Scout: “Cespedes hit his first homer off a guy who hasn’t smelled AAA yet. Step back from excitement.”
MTU,
If it was that good an offer ir if Prince really wanted to go to Washington you’d think he would have signed by now……Boras is looking for leverage to get to the number they are after….doubt they are there yet.
Villa Nova-Ya-
let me respond to each thing you said.
“You don’t know that either will happen.”
neither do you or anyone else who is taking the position that pineda is going to be good with the yankees. just having two pitches with a funky off balance delivery is a major problem.
“It’s really a wonder how the Yankees manage to survive as a franchise, since they apparently haven’t got a clue from top to bottom.”
they survive because they have more people like you and me debating things like this and watching them. it’s mostly because of the good will they have built up over the past 80 years. it’s because this good will provides huge financial resources. cashman and co doesn’t get much bang for their buck with their development system. they really do need to buy most of their good players.
so they can thank you and me and all the other yankee fans for that wealth
“I’m not rooting against Pineda because I think the Yankees should have kept Montero. Seems like you are hoping for this deal to go up in smoke to prove you are smarter than they are.”
everyone likes to be right including you. i think it’s human nature to root for something once you take a position on it. but not always. i want the yankees to win in the end. i can stand arod as a yankee , but i hope he does well. same with aj.
we both want the yankees to win. you root for pineda so this will happen. i’ll be rooting for him to fail fast if he is going to fail so it will be obvious cashman has no clue and he’ll be replaced thus improving the yankees.
so we both have improving the yankees as our rooting interest. i honestly don’t see pineda as a long time star starting pitcher with his motion. he could be good in the pen though if used right.
Blake-
That’s the best multi-year offer he’s gotten.
Maybe the Nats WILL pony up more. The owner is crazy rich.
Only takes 1 dumb owner.
Hilarious !
Burnett is what he is ….. a bad signing. Count on one hand how many games of significance he’s pitched for seemingly an immovable contract. Same old message from him, ” I can turn this around “. You just can’t make a McDonald’s burger taste like a prime rib from Ruth’s Chris.
To root for a player on your team to fail seems so red-soxian to me
Trade AJ
Trade R. Soriano
Move Swish
Sign Prince.
MTU,
It may boil down to…..will Prince want to take “the best he can get” from a team he may not want to play for…..or take a shorter deal and try again next year for what he really wants and where he really wants to play. I don’t know either of those things but we will find out soon enough. If someone gets creative on a short term deals for him then I hope its not Texas.
“I think AJ tries….I think he really cares and wants to be better….it just is what it is. Most guys would kill to have the career he’s had…..he’s just on the tail end of it now…..”
aj was pretty good as a young pitcher.
relating him to pineda, was aj a two pitch pitcher back then?
a quick look on fan graphs shows he threw more change ups back then than he did the past few years with the yankees until last year.
“relating him to pineda, was aj a two pitch pitcher back then?”
AJ has never had anywhere close to the control or command Pineda showed last year or throughtout the minors……if Pineda stays healthy then even if he doesn’t develop a good third pitch then AJs career may be his absolute floor… AJ had only two pitches and couldn’t throw strikes…..and still had a good big league career overall.
“I see it as half full because Burnett has so much to offer to this ball club. He just needs a chance to prove what he’s worth”
============================
Appreciate the post, Delia. Several good points, but must admit that you lost me with your very last sentence (seen above). Just needs a chance?
Randy -
I am taking a wait and see.
I don’t know if Pineda will be good. I frankly wasn’t even sure who he was when I heard about the deal. I’m putting some faith in the scouting, and in what I’ve read that says that this was a good trade and that the Yankees got a good pitcher. Of course I hope that’s right.
I have always believed the Yankees could/should invest more heavily in the “underside” of things, meaning the supporting cast – scouts, coaches, etc. I think they have moved, albeit slowly, in that direction.
I don’t think it’s awful to have to go outside to buy your talent; but I believe the Yankees are making a serious effort, at least on the pitching end of it, to stay in-house as much as possible to limit the spending (which has gotten crazier and crazier). They are not there on the offensive side as much.
I was absolutely positive once CC was signed that Montero was “safe,” would not be traded. And for a few months, I was right, and within the parameters I had set, I would have stayed right. I didn’t even consider the Yankees would make a trade like the one they ended up making.
But all that being said, I don’t think the Yankees are quite where you have them in terms of ineptitude as an organization. And I think it takes time and some sacrifice and some risk to move from the mindset of quick fixes to being able to count on your own system for help.
In many ways, the Yankees have taken big strides in using their system to fill in. They have good depth which has helped them in the last few seasons. But now they are moving into another area – and a risky one – with trying to fill the rotation out without having to invest heavily in long-term expensive contracts. They’ve been killed too often in the past to continue down that road. Burnett is just the most recent glaring example of it.
I believe that for all the shortcomings with Hughes and Joba, that the Yankees have learned from that experience, regardless of where the lion’s share of the “blame” falls. I think they are at least making a great effort to ensure that Betances and Banuelos are not called up before their time.
I’m sorry this was so long. It’s complicated – and that’s all I’m saying. It’s too simple to say Pineda is definitely nto going to work out.
randy
You need to start writing fiction because you’re good at it.
:
CJNitkowskiCJ Nitkowski
Just watched Cespedes turn around 97 for a long HR. Lightening quick hands, looks pretty bad on off speed. MLB teammate told me “no balance”
====================================
Sounds like Cespedes = Cerrano
AJ has value, especially in the NL where he can pitch around the few sticks inna lineup. He’s gonna make his Mgr nervous with men on base every inning, his WHIP is gonna be horrible, but his ERA will be decent, he will give a team innings, and he will win more games than he loses in the NL. Cashman is Not gonna give AJ away, and putting him in the bullpen does nothing but damage his trade value. With Hughes having an option, this makes him the odd-man-out. Barring an injury or AJ getting traded, Hughes should be part of the starting staff in AAA once the Yanks break camp.
Disregard Burnett in August? That’s like Oz saying “PAY NOT ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!” August is when the playoff hunt goes into high gear. The fact that Burnett wilts year after year at that time tells you all you need to know. He’s been one of the worst starting pitchers in baseball for 2 straight years. It’s a nice try Delia, but some folks just can’t be defended.
All that being said, I would have no problem having him as a #5, but for the fact, that he’s blocking Hughes. The Yanks need to find out right now what they have in Hughes. Remember, the Yanks ran up his inning total two years ago and his velocity dropped badly last year as a result. Hughes deserves a long look to see if he can be anything like the guy who showed hints of brilliance in 2009 and 2010.
“To root for a player on your team to fail seems so red-soxian to me”
to root for a guy making bad decisions to be exposed so he’ll be fired so a good guy will replace him is what real fans do
for example, were i an investor in that cruise company that owned that ship that went aground that’s all over the news, i would have been rooting against that ship captain to fail much sooner than he got the chance for big failure.
so to root against pineda or cashman for me is to root for the yankees.
and pineda seems like a nice kid. i feel sorry for him going into the meat grinder that is the pressure filled world of the yankees with cashman’s career depending on this kid doing well.
make no mistake. if this kid flames out, cashman is gone.
that’s going to be the problem.
this kid is going to get cashman’s special attention.
that’s the kiss of death.
I don’t feel like looking through the CBA right now but the claim that 1/6 the posting fee counts towards the payroll seems suspicious…
Cashman is Not gonna give AJ away,
=========================
Then he’s not moving him. He not only has to give him away, he’s probably going to have to pay 2/3 of his salary. See Lowe and Zambrano.
“You need to start writing fiction because you’re good at it.”
maine yankee-
so how much should i charge for my new book?
how much would you pay?
One good World Series game does not justify this signing. There have been hundreds of mediocre and bad players that had that one special World Series moment.
Terrible signing by Cashman, no matter how you slice it.
Erin January 19th, 2012 at 9:16 am
Delia- very nice job.
Just do yourself a huge favor today and stay away from the comments section.
———————-
Hahahaha, my thoughts exactly.. poor girl.
I was toying with the idea of throwing my name in there for the pinch hitter series this year but all I could come up with was a long winded rant about being marginalized by pink hats and ill fitting jerseys. *Sigh* the life of a female fan..
Should the Rangers go 6 man form awhile to both limit Feliz’s innings and ease Darvish into the 4 days rest schedule? I think id consider that then transition Ogando or Feliz back to the pen later in the season.
Pineda hasn’t even been a Yankee for a week and we already got posters telling us what pitches he commanded last season and in the minors. Prior to last Friday, when was the last time Pineda was even mentioned on this Blog? We aint gonna know what Pineda has or commands till ST and the regular season begins. Ya gotta see an SP over an extended period of time to know, and with a young SP the picture is always changing. Top that off with the unending angst outta the Montero Huggers and I expect to soon see a post outta Jack Nicholson ragging about Nurse Ratchet.
Donny,
He doesn’t walk many guys and hasn’t pretty much since he’s been a professional……what do you call that? Or do you need your eyes to see him not walk guys before you’ll trust it?
I think id consider that then transition Ogando or Feliz back to the pen later in the season.
=================================
With Darvish locked in, wouldn’t surprise me if Feliz prepared as a starter in camp, but ended up in the bullpen anyway.
Can’t wait till ST to find out what pitches Pineda throws.
Gyroball? Rising fastball? Who knows!?
‘It’s gonna turn against the Niners this weekend’.
————–
I for one will take that home field advantage in the playoffs and the Niners D.
Shame
you would have done a great job
“With Darvish locked in, wouldn’t surprise me if Feliz prepared as a starter in camp, but ended up in the bullpen anyway.”
That’s possible….they have 6 starters now so somebody will have to go…..but I don’t think it’d be the worst idea to ease Darvish into his new rest schedule….pretty big investment there.
With all due respect Delia, you have not been smoking the objective pipe.
LGY January 19th, 2012 at 10:09 am
Can’t wait till ST to find out what pitches Pineda throws.
Gyroball? Rising fastball? Who knows!?
————————-
LOL!
I think the rising fastball conversation was probably one of my all time favorites here on LoHud. That, and the time that WCYF brought innocent bystanders, Bert and Ernie, into a conversation that I think revolved around the merits of opting into military service.
I’m usually strongly opposed to 6-man rotations and I think the Yanks really screwed up CC with that nonsense last season.
Yet if I were EVER to endorse it the Texas situation would be the one time. None of the returning starters is so established that it would totally throw off his routine.
The biggest issue with a 6-man rotation is off-days really make it hard to find/maintain rhythm.
Of course the Yanks are looking at a 7-man if they don’t do something.
What do the Yanks do if Boras calls and says Prince will DH for one year for $ 22, and you cannot offer arbitration? It might make sense for Prince to sign up for one year, big stage, almost certain post-season and re-enter the market with hopes of finding more suitors… in particular the Dodgers ownership will be settled and James Loney will be a FA.
Shame- I would actually be very interested to read that essay. Very relatable.
That, and the time that WCYF brought innocent bystanders, Bert and Ernie, into a conversation that I think revolved around the merits of opting into military service.
********************
Ugh!! Don’t remind me.
Considering Albert Pujols got a 10-year deal I think it would be insulting to Prince to even suggest a 1-year deal. They’re not the same player but there’s not that much of a difference.
All the talk is Pineda. Cashman has an out on this trade if Campos turns out to be better than Pineda. He can always say, ” We knew Campos was gonna be the real jewel of the trade.” A face saving out is always good to have in your back pocket.
And just because teams aren’t coming out with offers for Prince in public it doesn’t mean he won’t get a multiyear deal.
If the Yankees plan is to sign Prince Fielder, that gives Cashman plenty of “cover” for having dealt away a young bat. There’s only 5 years between those two.
randy l. January 19th, 2012 at 10:02 am
“You need to start writing fiction because you’re good at it.”
maine yankee-
so how much should i charge for my new book?
how much would you pay?
——————————————————————-
I guess it would depend on what bs subject you chose.
What do the Yanks do if Boras calls and says Prince will DH for one year for $ 22, and you cannot offer arbitration? It might make sense for Prince to sign up for one year
===============================
Take closer to $30M to get him to take 1 year.
I dismiss the notion that no market exist. Same talk surrounded Matt Holliday a couple years back. He ended up just fine. So will Fielder.
But the question will remain…
How will Prince Fielder ever fill the shoes of Jesus Montero?
Thanks Erin and upstate kate, maybe next winter I’ll give it a go. I don’t think the guys here realize how scarred we are from hearing the words ‘you throw like a girl!’ throughout our lives.. well.. maybe some of them do.
49ers in the rain bodes well. They also seem to be the “chosen one”. Man, does Joe Montana look old in that commercial.
Erin January 19th, 2012 at 10:17 am
That, and the time that WCYF brought innocent bystanders, Bert and Ernie, into a conversation that I think revolved around the merits of opting into military service.
********************
Ugh!! Don’t remind me.
—————————
I remember laughing out loud!! But again, the rising fastball conversation might’ve taken the cake. I haven’t seen so many people mad at science since I watched that documentary ‘Jesus Camp.’
- Bret -
At least Fielder has Montero’s swing.
“What do the Yanks do if Boras calls and says Prince will DH for one year for $ 22, and you cannot offer arbitration? ”
If they offer that and the Yankees don’t do ill be very disappointed.
There may be some people ready willing and able to give Prince a $ 100 M plus deal, but are they really attractive opportunities???
A year from now the new Dodgers ownership might go bonkers for a shot at him and he’d be a great fit in that lineup.
I’m not suggesting the Yanks are planning for it or should do it. I’m saying FIELDER ought to consider it as a better plan to get the long term deal he wants at a place where he really wants to play.
The Cubs and Cardinals are two other organizations not in the mix this year that are more likely to be interested in 2013. Timing is the issue.
“to root for a guy making bad decisions to be exposed so he’ll be fired so a good guy will replace him is what real fans do
”
And here’s the problem with this thesis.
Why does someone making consistent bad decisions require further exposure? If he’s this consistently bad, shouldn’t his previous bad decisions be all the exposure necessary?
Is Brian Cashman stealthy bad, with his stealthy bad decisions detectable only to a select few?
Or has someone compiled data to calculating his good decisions against his bad, and comparing them (unfavorably) to the ML GM norm?
What you’ve just acknowledged clearly Randy is one, or both of the following:
1.) Judgment of Cashman’s body of work is highly subjective, and requires further, more obviously damning evidence to mount an effective case against.
2.) Cashman has an objective case for, as well as against, so much so your contention is Yankee decision makers are paying too much attention to the successes and not enough attention to the failures.
You acknowledging Cashman needs to the further “exposed” by definition just means yours is an admitted non-conclusive opinion.
Which is fine, btw.
Before the Pineda / Campos deal and the signing of Kuroda, the starting rotation saw Burnett blocking the way of Hughes and Noesi. Now Burnett is still blocking the way of Hughes and possibly Garcia.
There may be some people ready willing and able to give Prince a $ 100 M plus deal, but are they really attractive opportunities???
============================
Nothing unappealing about either Washington or Texas.
49ers in the rain bodes well. They also seem to be the “chosen one”. Man, does Joe Montana look old in that commercial.
————–
I for one will take that home field advantage in the playoffs and the Niners D. Rain too ? Even better on natural grass, home field, Niners D.
Laying less than 3 right now too.
Montana is old now, in his 50′s and all beat up from the NFL. Back injuries almost cut his career short two different times. One of which came against the NYG at Candlestick I believe
“If the Yankees plan is to sign Prince Fielder, that gives Cashman plenty of “cover” for having dealt away a young bat. There’s only 5 years between those two.”
Whom does he require cover from?
I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that trade has not been received overwhelmingly (if not unanimously) poistively?
Hal is kinda stuck having to field any Boras calls with Cano in mind. I’m sure Hal got torked somewhat when Boras leaked that they had met. I’d like to see just how torked Hal can get. Not sure. He seems pretty subdued and or medicated. Hank now, I could see that guy punching a wall.
dogface January 19th, 2012 at 10:36 am
There may be some people ready willing and able to give Prince a $ 100 M plus deal, but are they really attractive opportunities???
============================
Nothing unappealing about either Washington or Texas.
——————
They sure are taking their sweet time about it then.
86,
Yea I think that may be what Boras and Fielder are weighing….should they take the best of what’s out there now…..or try again next year when the teams involved for him may make the market more favorable.
Delia -
A flaw with your mathematical evaluation:
Anyone can delete a month out of any pitcher’s season to prove a point that they are better or worse than what the final result is. For example, I can find a month where AJ Burnett was lights out, remove it from his record, and “prove” (not really) that he was actually worse than what the final numbers show.
That’s why you are what you are at the end of the day – removing slumps or hot streaks from a player’s record just doesn’t work. They count. They factor in to who the player ultimately is.
In the case of Burnett, not a very good one. There is simply no way to reinvent this guy – he’s a power pitcher. And once he started losing some of his ability to overpower hitters, he had no more answers. He’s not the first, and won’t be the last, pitcher who is unable to compensate for what he has lost.
I’d like to see just how torked Hal can get. Not sure.
——————-
Try asking Christina ? ?
randy – Why is the consensus that Cashman makes bad decisions? His teams have won more games in his tenure than any other.
- Oscar -
I’m not big on the NFL, but I am a Notre Dame fan and have a lotta respect for Montana. He always carries himself well.
I coukd see why Prince may not want to sign longterm with Washington….especially if its not the kind of money he was hoping for……and we don’t know Texas’s true level of interest or how.long they’d go on a contract.
The Dodgers getting a new owner would certainly be reason to wait if you’re not totally happy with the current deal out there.
but I am a Notre Dame fan
====================
Now, I’m starting to feel bad for you.
Bret The Hitman January 19th, 2012 at 10:23 am
But the question will remain…
How will Prince Fielder ever fill the shoes of Jesus Montero?
————-
By hitting 50 + HR’s with 130 + RBI’s ?
“Now Burnett is still blocking the way of Hughes and possibly Garcia.”
S’far as I’m concerned, Hughes has been blocking his own path lately. Very few would have predicted Nova would outshine him at any point in his career.
- 86w -
I like the Dodger\Fielder scenario you suggest. Fits well.
to some people, being right is much more important than having their team win. randy is only one of several on her, although he’s the only one honest enough to admit it. although to be right “worst trade in franchise history” it would take a complete collapse by pineda, which would really mean bad things for the yankees.
but as long as he can say he was right, that’s all that matters to him.
Signing Darvish was the best move of the offseason, by any team. His contract is absurdly team friendly and he’s going to be an ace. Don’t talk to me about the posting fee, yes it was huge but it’s a one time payment by ownership to the Japanese team and has nothing to do with the contract Darvish got. Yu is under team control for potentially 6 years and his stuff is outrageously good. He’s got the right build to be durable, great mechanics … Texas upgraded their pitching staff significantly this offseason. Don’t forget about Neftali Feliz, before he was exiled to the bullpen he was one of the top starting pitching prospects in baseball. He’s another guy with ace potential. If Texas is patient with him, Feliz and Darvish at the top of their rotation is going to be monstrous for a long time.
blake January 19th, 2012 at 10:40 am
86,
Yea I think that may be what Boras and Fielder are weighing….should they take the best of what’s out there now…..or try again next year when the teams involved for him may make the market more favorable.
——————–
What other FA’s would be available next off season that have a bat/reputation like Fielder?
- Doggy -
To me, Notre Dame is the college football equivalent of the New York Yankees. Lotta tradition, lotta legends, lotta excellence on and off the field.
DONNY
Love Joe, a stand up guy. Two of my sons went to school with his boys. Always loved watching him in Super Bowls. Especially with his pass to J.Taylor and his complete destruction of Denver in New Orleans.
“I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that trade has not been received overwhelmingly (if not unanimously) poistively?”
If Pineda is anything less than awesome and Montero goes to Seattle and rakes then you’ll see lots of evidence.
There’s plenty to dislike about Washington… big yard, mediocre protection in lineup, indifferent fan base….
I cannot imagine Texas going all in now that they’ve spent $ 117 M on Darvish. They are already at $ 100 M for the first time in franchise history and still have big arbitration cases coming (Napoli, Cruz, Andrus).
From Fielder’s perspective the chance(s) that the Dodgers, Cubs, Cardinals and Giants could be players in 2013 has to be very enticing.
To me, Notre Dame is the college football equivalent of the New York Yankees. Lotta tradition, lotta legends, lotta excellence on and off the field.
=================================
Yeah, that’s the myth most Domers seem to live by.
“What other FA’s would be available next off season that have a bat/reputation like Fielder?”
Zero. Hamilton if he were younger and less injury prone but he’s not
patrick – That is the worst possible way you could look at the Darvish deal.
You can’t just eliminate the posting fee from consideration, it’s money that the Rangers spent on Darvish. Just because it doesn’t count against the Luxury Cap doesn’t mean the money didn’t come out of their pockets, not go into the pockets of another FA and will effect all future deals.
It is a financial disaster… and if he is not a top5 pitcher in the league for a single year of the contract, it will pretty much not have been worth the money spent.
As far as the Rangers are concerned, it cost them $117million to lock up Darvish for 6 years. That’s almost $20mil per year… disaster. if it takes him 2 years to adjust to the league, he would have to be even better to make up for the lost production. It’s just not realistic. The Rangers didn’t leave themselves with much of a choice after skipping out on Wilson… but they didn’t leave themselves much margin for error either.
- doggy -
Academically, ND speaks for itself. Their grad rate for athletes ditto.
Wait wait wait… why is Neftali Feliz going to return to the rotation and be successful with 2 pitches, but Pineda can’t continue his impressive start with those same 2 pitches?
Does ND teach their students how to spell? Lotta of mispelling innna school like ND
- Oscar -
Yea, Montana seems like a regular guy. He certainly doesn’t impress anyone with his physique. Lotta guts.
Yeah, that’s the myth most Domers seem to live by.
———-
Guess that means you don’t particularly care for the ‘Irish’ ?
silly ID…b/c the Rangers know how to develop starting pitchers
- Farr -
I wasn’t able to attend ND. I received my schooling courtesy of Father Flannigan.
upstate kate – i need to get me a pair of these “yankee blinders” so I can see all our prospects as garbage except the future HoF ones.
I wouldn’t call Darvish the deal of the offseason…..I think it could wind up being that way….but there is a lot of risk in that deal and until we ultimately see what he is I thinknjts tough to label it as that.
Id say Beltran is the deal of the offseason if were talking about value…..if he stays healthy that’s a steal and for that money and number of years pretty low risk.
yeah, the posting fee doesnt count, that was just $52M that fell out of their pocket.
“Signing Darvish was the best move of the offseason, by any team.”
I will go with the Dodgers extending Kemp, but I agree, which is why the Yankees will probably regret not going harder after Darvush.
I’m a “subway alum” of Notre Dame from growing up in The Bronx and attending Catholic school.
As a long time Notre Dame final it’s not east to admit that they have been barely relevant in college football for two decades.
blake – Beltran probably, yes. I think Kuroda can prove to be a significantly good deal as well.
As it relates to Texas…..they don’t pay luxury tax anyway ….so I don’t think we can say the posting fee doesn’t matter……it depends on how them handing out 51 million dollars affects their other moves …..if that posting fee keeps them from sighing Prince Fielder……then it’s certainly an issue they consider
Rich in NJ – Are you expecting CC level consistency and production from Darvish?
Academically, ND speaks for itself. Their grad rate for athletes ditto
=============================
Absoultely. Terrific school. Guess my point is they are about 20+ years removed from football excellence. They ain’t the Yankees or anything remotely similar.
Can we all please not pretend that any Yankee fan here is REALLY advocating genuinely signing Fielder to a one year deal.
Yanks do it and he had a big year, if they let him walk next year the outrage would be thick and violent.
Suggesting he be signed to a one year deal and presenting as being okay with the possible consequences of that is slight of hand.
Can we all please not pretend that any Yankee fan here is REALLY advocating genuinely signing Fielder to a one year deal.
Who’s pretending? Signing him to a 1 or 2 year deal would be perfect for blowing my dynamic DH plan out of the water. You all should be on board with this one.
- 86w -
They are Finally on the right track. The recruiting is going Extremely well. The tough schedule they play does Not help their cause. I expect them to finish next season in the Top 10. They gave away a couple games this season that really hurt. Michigan especially.
stuckey – posters “being upset they didn’t resign him” after already having him for a year or two is not exactly a concern anyone should be considering. posters are upset about every move the Yankees make… smart or not.
Wait wait wait… why is Neftali Feliz going to return to the rotation and be successful with 2 pitches, but Pineda can’t continue his impressive start with those same 2 pitches?
—
Feliz has more than 2 pitches.
And the posting fee literally doesn’t matter anymore. It has no effect on the team after it’s paid. Darvish’s contract is for $60 million dollars, that’s all that counts against the luxury tax and if they wanted to trade him that’s the contract the receiving team would pay. Obviously the posting fee is real money that they had to pay but I don’t see that coming out of the operating budget. Did the Red Sox payroll decrease by a great amount after they signed Matsuzaka? It stayed about the same then jumped up to almost 170 million in 2010.
The funny thing is, even if the posting fee was part of Darvish’s salary, it would still be worth it to sign him. He’s that good
Irreverent Discourse January 19th, 2012 at 11:05 am
Rich in NJ – Are you expecting CC level consistency and production from Darvish?
Not necessarily in year one, but over the life of the deal, given their respective salaries, ages, and body types, Darvish could be more cost-effective.
The surest sign it is winter is someone on the LoHud Yankees blog contending the Yankees will regret not signing that big name free agent for years to come.
More reliable than snowfall.
Not signing Chapman was going to cripple them for years, I recall.
- doggy -
The Yanks also went through those “lean” years of the 90′s, and even the mid to late 60′s early 70′s. ND is on the rise. BOOK IT
blake January 19th, 2012 at 10:55 am
“What other FA’s would be available next off season that have a bat/reputation like Fielder?”
Zero. Hamilton if he were younger and less injury prone but he’s not
———————
Yeah I couldn’t think of anyone either, blake… He’d basically be the only premium bat out there and he’s not in the ‘strictly DH’ part of his career yet (although I didn’t think Montero was either but I’m working on letting that go little by little, day by day).
Rich in NJ – How could it be cost effective if he already has to be one of the top5 pitchers in baseball to begin to meet the baseline of his salary? He’s going to be so much better than a $20mil/year pitcher that its going to make the deal then… worth it?
And the posting fee literally doesn’t matter anymore. It has no effect on the team after it’s paid. Darvish’s contract is for $60 million dollars, that’s all that counts against the luxury tax and if they wanted to trade him that’s the contract the receiving team would pay
——————————
Can you pass that on to everyone else claiming Yu is costing the Rangers 18 million a year.
Nice post. I like AJ and have always defended him. He has had his moments. He’s stayed healthy. Given us innings. Is a good teammate.
But of the 7 pitchers, he’s the one you try to move first. Then Freddy.
Pineda was about now and the next 5 yrs. Kiroda and Freddy were about AJ and Hughes.
I’m hoping Hughes takes no prisoners this year.
Patrick – Feliz has more than 2 pitches. Does he? Because he doesn’t throw them, and hasn’t been for at least 2 years. Unless you consider Burnett and Pineda as having “more than 2 pitches” as well…
Will be interesting This season to watch Darvish vs Kuroda. Hope they match up H2H regular season and Playoffs.
ID
Because CC’s body type presents an increased risk of breaking down as he moves through his 30s.
Darvish’s salary is $10 million a year. That’s what top 5 pitchers make?
It’s a disservice to Darvish to say that he is making 18 million a year, it’s simply not true.
And the posting fee literally doesn’t matter anymore. It has no effect on the team after it’s paid. Darvish’s contract is for $60 million dollars, that’s all that counts against the luxury tax and if they wanted to trade him that’s the contract the receiving team would pay
——————————
Can you pass that on to everyone else claiming Yu is costing the Rangers 18 million a year.
No, because he cost them $117million to play for their team for 6 years.
There is literally no arguing that fact, so get this “ignoring the posting fee” nonsense out of your head and off of this board.
rich in NJ – What does that have to do with Darvish being a $20mil/year pitcher?
Matt Holiday – LF
Carl Crawford – CF
Prince Fielder – 1B
LOOGY – Aroldis Chapman
#1 starter – Cliff Lee
#2 starter – Yu Darvish
Its good to have a dream.
patrick- That is certainly unfortunate for Darvish, because it’s not what he is making. It’s also unfortunate for the Rangers because that’s what they are paying. You can’t ignore it, get your head out of the sand.
Irreverent Discourse January 19th, 2012 at 11:16 am
And the posting fee literally doesn’t matter anymore. It has no effect on the team after it’s paid. Darvish’s contract is for $60 million dollars, that’s all that counts against the luxury tax and if they wanted to trade him that’s the contract the receiving team would pay
——————————
Can you pass that on to everyone else claiming Yu is costing the Rangers 18 million a year.
No, because he cost them $117million to play for their team for 6 years.
There is literally no arguing that fact, so get this “ignoring the posting fee” nonsense out of your head and off of this board.
—————————
lol get off the board??????????? Are you the lohud police
lol get off the board??????????? Are you the lohud police
No, read what I said… stop lying about how much he cost the Rangers. THAT doesn’t belong on the board.
Irreverent Discourse January 19th, 2012 at 11:17 am
rich in NJ – What does that have to do with Darvish being a $20mil/year pitcher?
——————————–
20 million a year pitcher??? are we talking about the same guy
“the posting fee doesnt matter anymore”
what a joke. like not having $52M doesnt make any difference in how you run a buisness.
listen if you want to say that he’s the best signing of the offseason that’s fine, but you destroy your own argument when you say something stupid like that.
Patrick – Feliz has more than 2 pitches. Does he? Because he doesn’t throw them, and hasn’t been for at least 2 years. Unless you consider Burnett and Pineda as having “more than 2 pitches” as well…
—
He does. When you pitch in the bullpen you don’t need to throw all your pitches, he basically throws 80% fastballs because he doesn’t need to throw much else. Joba was a fastball/slider guy in the pen but has 4 plus pitches. Hughes threw almost all fastballs when he was in the pen.
Best ever to not understand it – The Texas Rangers spent $117million to lock up Darvish for 6 years. I dare anyone to refute that fact.
“It’s a disservice to Darvish to say that he is making 18 million a year, it’s simply not true.”
So if some team gave Prince Fielder a $50m signing bonus and then $75m over 5 years you’d argue he’d only be making $15m a year?
Really?
actually, to the yankees the darvish contract would cost $22M/year in aav assuming they get under the luxury tax threshold for 2014.
ID
As Patrick has pointed out, the posting fee and his contract should be viewed as distinct expenditures. The former is really the purchase of an option; the latter is the cost of his services.
patrick – So he’s just going to “get those pitches back” after not throwing them for almost 3 full seasons? Sounds to me like he’s going to have to re-develop them.
Rich in NJ January 19th, 2012 at 11:20 am
ID
As Patrick has pointed out, the posting fee and his contract should be viewed as distinct expenditures. The former is really the purchase of an option; the latter is the cost of his services.
———————–
Thank you sir
Rich in NJ – As Patrick has pointed out, the posting fee and his contract should be viewed as distinct expenditures. The former is really the purchase of an option; the latter is the cost of his services.
And i pointed out this is completely wrong. $117million will leave the Rangers pockets for signing one single player. How is that money NOT attributed to him?
The posting fee only doesn’t matter if it doesn’t matter to the Rangers and they absorb that money without consequence to other moves they’d potentially make. No evidence that that’s the case yet….
Irreverent Discourse January 19th, 2012 at 11:20 am
Best ever to not understand it – The Texas Rangers spent $117million to lock up Darvish for 6 years. I dare anyone to refute that fact.
————————-
It’s been refuted more than once.
I’d like to see just how torked Hal can get.
I wasn’t able to attend ND. I received my schooling courtesy of Father Flannigan.
———————————-
Torking – What the hell is this torking you speak of.
Fr Flanagan wouldn’t want you to mention him, I’m sure.
“As Patrick has pointed out, the posting fee and his contract should be viewed as distinct expenditures. The former is really the purchase of an option; the latter is the cost of his services.”
Agreed.
The practical implications of this in a discussion of his overall cost to the Texas Rangers are what?
The reason I want Prince and the reason I was upset with Montero being dealt is I have no confidence in Texeira.
He’s not the hitter we thought we were getting for all that money. He is from the right side, but from the left he’s Carlos Pena who also has a fantastic glove and can hit bombs and can’t get a job right now for 10 million dollars.
I was hoping they’d put a 1b mitt on Montero and start to ease him in so Texeira could lose the mind numbing at bats he produces from the left hand side.
I have little to no confidence that he will become a better hitter again because it took the guy years to realize he became a one dimensional masher who is tanking at bats and lost the 3 spot in the batting order because of lack of production.
If we got Prince I think he would end up staying here long term and I think he would definitely steal Texeira starts/at bats in interleague.
The majority of Texeira’s at bats are against RHP and he couldn’t hit it if he tried. Yeah, he’ll run into some fastballs from the left side but he’s now a very poor hitter who is swinging for the fences and has no concept of just extending an inning with a smart at bat.
I hope someone takes AJ off our hands and I hope that is what frees the Yankees up to make Prince a pillow landing offer with opt outs up the whazoo to get him to come here.
If he came here and hit 50 bombs and led this offense with Cano like Ortiz and Manny did once upon a PED aided time, the Yankees will keep him and Mr. Texeira will be forced to put up or shut up with his bat from the left side or start becoming a top step cheerleader.
The Yanks also went through those “lean” years of the 90?s, and even the mid to late 60?s early 70?s. ND is on the rise. BOOK IT
=========================
If they go back to letting thugs and illiterates in like they did in the Holtz era, it’s possible. If they play it straight, like they have since Holtz (and before Holtz), I don’t think so.
- JUST ANOTHER DAY ON THE LOHUD BLOG -
ID – ” The great OZ has spoken”
“He’s not the hitter we thought we were getting for all that money. He is from the right side, but from the left he’s Carlos Pena who also has a fantastic glove and can hit bombs and can’t get a job right now for 10 million dollars.”
Not really ……Pena gets on base more
- doggy -
I believe you have ND confused with Miami.
“get those pitches back”
That’s what spring training is for.
so if i’m gonna buy a car for $18K and i have $5K to put down on it, i should just make my financial calculations based on the car costing $13K and just pretend the 5 grand never existed?
i hope none of you guys are in finance…
This is the stupidest exercise in failed logic I’ve ever seen.
It’s been refuted more than once.
No, it hasn’t been refuted ever… because this argument that it “doesn’t count” is completely ridiculous and wrong.
Simple facts. The Texas Rangers spent $117million to ensure Darvish played for their team for 6 years.
You can not ignore the posting fee because if they didn’t pay it, they never could have signed the contract. These things are not mutually exclusive.
Simple Fact, Darvish is costing the Rangers $17m AAV for the duration of his contract.
This is basically irrefutable… so stop it. You’re just being ridiculous to be ridiculous.
Haven’t had a chance to read any of the comments but I think most posters know I am still in AJ’s corner. I’ve also gone on record as saying I fully understand why posters would not be. But he’s shown that he still has it. I’m hoping for the final bout of consistency that would do us all well, AJ included.
By the way, today is the birthday of an extremely nice and totally uncontroversial poster – Compass Rosy.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY SIS!!!
so if i?m gonna buy a car for $18K and i have $5K to put down on it, i should just make my financial calculations based on the car costing $13K and just pretend the 5 grand never existed?
i hope none of you guys are in finance?
——-
YS
LOL LOL LOL LOL
“If he came here and hit 50 bombs and led this offense with Cano like Ortiz and Manny did once upon a PED aided time, the Yankees will keep him and Mr. Texeira will be forced to put up or shut up with his bat”
Is Mr. Teixeira doing talking about his production (other than acknowledging he wasn’t satisfied with it) that I’m unaware of.
Are we know contending Mr. Teixeira’s effort is lacking and requires motivation to increase.
The bitterness and anger a player not playing well generates never ceases to astound me.
the bill for that posting fee came due yesterday. they had to cut that check. you’d damned well better believe they worked that money into every financial calculation they’ve made regarding the operations of that team for all 6 years and beyond.
not to do so is financial malfeasance.
so if i’m gonna buy a car for $18K and i have $5K to put down on it, i should just make my financial calculations based on the car costing $13K and just pretend the 5 grand never existed?
—
I put $7 or 8 k down on my car when I bought it 3 years ago. Have I thought about that money since then? No. I think about the monthly payments I have to make. The down payment comes out of my savings and has no effect on my monthly budget. The same can be said for Darvish’s posting fee.
“Simple facts. The Texas Rangers spent $117million to ensure Darvish played for their team for 6 years.”
This is not necessarily true, ID.
They could extend him and have him under their control for 10 years or 15 years.
LGY,
I started the 1/6 discussion for posting fees. I had never heard that before, but the Dallas Morning News reported that today. Don’t know if it is true.
Rich in NJ – Curious, do you consider the Matsuzaka signing a success or failure for the RedSox then? because by his “salary” he has returned every dollar and more of value to the club. He’s only short in production the $50million they spent to talk to him in the first place…
Do you not consider the Kei Igawa debacle as $40mil lost? or is it $26mil lost?
I just don’t understand.
on top of that, since most organizations don’t have $52M sitting around in a drawer, they very likely had to borrow money to make that payment and have to pay hefty service on that debt. and they’ve figured every last penny of that cost into their financial planning over those 6 years, too.
Rich in NJ – They could extend him… adding more money to the deal… how does that make it any better? He already said he didn’t get as much money as he wanted you think he’s going to take a cheap extension now too?
Simple Fact, Darvish is costing the Rangers $17m AAV for the duration of his contract.
—
So why don’t we just add in the cost of Darvish’s plane ticket to Texas to that. And the cost of the dinner they bought him a few nights ago. This is stupid. Yu Darvish is contracted to play baseball for the Texas Rangers at a cost of $60 million over 6 years.
“I dare anyone to refute that fact.”
Voodoo math, ID?
Simple Fact, Darvish is costing the Rangers $17m AAV for the duration of his contract
================================
So they got him for Burnett money, eh?
“The practical implications of this in a discussion of his overall cost to the Texas Rangers are what?”
I’m not sure, stuckey. Given that the common wisdom is that Texas’ new TV contract has made this and other big money deals possible, it may well be that increased revenue generated by Darvish (and possibly other signings) offsets any costs, maybe by a lot.
I put $7 or 8 k down on my car when I bought it 3 years ago. Have I thought about that money since then? No. I think about the monthly payments I have to make. The down payment comes out of my savings and has no effect on my monthly budget. The same can be said for Darvish’s posting fee.
Completely false logic. Did you not spent that money, or have you “forgotten” about it? Just because you forgot doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Is this a serious conversation? Did you bump your head this morning partick?
“Burnett would have had a 4.24 ERA”
If a pitcher has a high QS %, I agree that you can “forgive” a bad stretch that could distort a record of consistent quality.
But sadly in AJ’s case, he ranked dead last out of 73 pitchers (with 180 innings) in QS% in 2011, and second to last in 2010.
because by his “salary” he has returned every dollar and more of value to the club.
—
not true
This just in, Darvish can throw a literal rising fastball with the paper the posting fee was written on. True story.
patrick – It’s absolutely true, how do justify that it has not?
stuckey,
Prior to the end of the season when Tex lost the 3 spot he didn’t see any problems with his production as it plummeted from the right side and he killed rally after rally from the left hand side hitting like a quad A slugger.
It’s not lack of trying. I believe he tries. I just don’t believe he’s the player he was before he came here. The hitting IQ we were all sold is non existant. He’s like a bull at the plate from the left side against middling RHP.
He was brought here to be the guy and now he’s a 5th place hitter and dropping in the lineup.
This is not what the Yankees signed up for and gave him 180 million for. He’s 1/3rd of the hitter they signed since he only bats RH about 1/3rd of the time or less. He wasn’t brought here just to be a great glove.
patrick – Very simple put Matsuzaka has been worth 10.6 WAR which costs roughly $50million on the FA market to replace. He has not made $50million by his salary yet so… how has he not exceeded the value of his contract?
Donnybrook —
I like Kelly, but if they can’t protect the football they aren’t going to make all that much progress.
They were minus-15 in turnover differential
some split stats from 2011 (kinda terrifying ones)
2011 vs RHP
Teixera: .224/.325/.453/.779
Pena: .255/.388/.504/.892
Fielder: .308/.435/.612/1.046
ID
As for ‘zaka, as you know, he got hurt. Obviously, debilitating injures make most deals quite expensive.
Igawa was a moronic signing, like lighting money on fire with very, very, very little possibility of ROI. I view that as being in a class by itself.
Again, I view the posting fee as the purchase of an option to negotiate, but even if you view it the way you do, the longer the time horizon of the relationship, the lower the amount the posting fee costs on a year over year basis.
Completely false logic. Did you not spent that money, or have you “forgotten” about it? Just because you forgot doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Is this a serious conversation? Did you bump your head this morning partick?
—
If you calculate my monthly operating costs and monthly income and come up with a budget, the money I took out of my savings account for a down payment literally has no effect on either except for interest generated from that money which would just be dropped back into the savings anyways. The point is, it’s likely that the Rangers got the posting fee from another place and not from the income of the team. Like any rational person would do.
This is the stupidest argument.
Even if you gave Darvish a $117 million contract and no posting fee he’d be worth it, and the best move of the offseason.
Patrick January 19th, 2012 at 11:29 am
so if i’m gonna buy a car for $18K and i have $5K to put down on it, i should just make my financial calculations based on the car costing $13K and just pretend the 5 grand never existed?
—
I put $7 or 8 k down on my car when I bought it 3 years ago. Have I thought about that money since then? No. I think about the monthly payments I have to make. The down payment comes out of my savings and has no effect on my monthly budget. The same can be said for Darvish’s posting fee.
—————–
Patrick, what you’re talking about is totally different.. unless you at no point had to budget for the $7 or $8k you spent initially. If not, good for you. I’d miss $7-$8k in my bank account whether I spent it all at once or over a period of time via monthly payments.
Irreverent Discourse January 19th, 2012 at 11:26 am
This is the stupidest exercise in failed logic I’ve ever seen.
It’s been refuted more than once.
No, it hasn’t been refuted ever… because this argument that it “doesn’t count” is completely ridiculous and wrong.
Simple facts. The Texas Rangers spent $117million to ensure Darvish played for their team for 6 years.
You can not ignore the posting fee because if they didn’t pay it, they never could have signed the contract. These things are not mutually exclusive.
Simple Fact, Darvish is costing the Rangers $17m AAV for the duration of his contract.
This is basically irrefutable… so stop it. You’re just being ridiculous to be ridiculous.
———————————
No everyone else is being ridiculous and I’m not sure why. Trying to make it seem like Darvish is costing the Rangers an arm and a leg.
patrick – You are terrible at math, and I’m really scared for your ability to do your own finances if that’s how you actually think.
“I’m not sure, stuckey. Given that the common wisdom is that Texas’ new TV contract has made this and other big money deals possible, it may well be that increased revenue generated by Darvish (and possibly other signings) offsets any costs, maybe by a lot.”
Fair enough. The Texas Rangers may well be able to afford, and perhaps increasingly so, the $117m cost of acquisition for 6 years of his services. No dispute.
I’m just not sure how the break-up of his cost of acquisition for 6 years of his services has any practical implications other the semantics on a fan message board.
best ever to ignore every fact in the world – Answer this simple question for me, I’m completely done with this nonsense.
Did the Texas Rangers spend $117million to acquire Darvish between the posting fee and the contract?
Anyone got any idea when the Yankees will finally announce Pineda and Kuroda?
if you dont think the $52M counts, you should run for congress, you’d fit right in.
Very simple put Matsuzaka has been worth 10.6 WAR which costs roughly $50million on the FA market to replace. He has not made $50million by his salary yet so… how has he not exceeded the value of his contract?
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10.6 WAR costs $50 million? Only if the cost of a marginal win is $5 million, pretty high. Fangraphs has Matsuzaka’s dollar value at $45 million and he’s likely to miss most of this season so it’s not getting any larger by the time his contract is up.
Irreverent Discourse January 19th, 2012 at 11:32 am
I put $7 or 8 k down on my car when I bought it 3 years ago. Have I thought about that money since then? No. I think about the monthly payments I have to make. The down payment comes out of my savings and has no effect on my monthly budget. The same can be said for Darvish’s posting fee.
Completely false logic. Did you not spent that money, or have you “forgotten” about it? Just because you forgot doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Is this a serious conversation? Did you bump your head this morning partick?
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Hehehehehehe.. I love these convos!! They make me want to yell about hating science/basic math again! The rising fastball lives!
In all fairness, Darvish doesn’t technically cost $17 mil annually. Its still just the $10 million over 6 years…. but I’m with you ID, I’m still pretty sure that $51 million actually exists.
stuckey – If you spend $120million on a player, don’t you expect to get $120mil in value in return?
That’s the point I’m getting at here. Darvish has to be one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball for the duration of his contract, because essentially that’s what he’s being paid as. This is why it is not “the deal of the offseason” or “money the yankees should have spent”.
Even if you gave Darvish a $117 million contract and no posting fee he’d be worth it, and the best move of the offseason.
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This is where I get off the ride but I agree with everything else
In part because WAR is a ridiculous measuring stick.
Patrick, you should work for Congress where $ 50 M can disappear with a blink of an eye
patrick- 10.6 WAR costs $50 million? Only if the cost of a marginal win is $5 million, pretty high That’s exactly what a win is calculated to cost, it changes every year based on money spent in free agency and the returns on those investments… and may actually be $5.5mil per win this year.
The Yankees will never sign Fielder despite my wish otherwise. I blame Blake and Bret for making me dream the dream.
Let’s assume the Yankees could trade Burnett and save half of his salary. I am not sure where that gets them other than money for someone like Damon. Pena to the Tigers makes sense to me. He would at least get to share 1B there. He seems unlikely to me for the Yankees since he would really be a DH only.
Irreverent Discourse January 19th, 2012 at 11:39 am
best ever to ignore every fact in the world – Answer this simple question for me, I’m completely done with this nonsense.
Did the Texas Rangers spend $117million to acquire Darvish between the posting fee and the contract?
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The posting fee was a one time thing. Does it exist sure it does but let’s not act like Darvish is costing the Rangers 18 million a year.
Everyone insulting my math skills, I guarantee you that I have better math skills than anyone on here except CB or Rich….. just saying
best ever – Your inability to give a straight answer to the question tells me everything I need to know.
That’s exactly what a win is calculated to cost, it changes every year based on money spent in free agency and the returns on those investments… and may actually be $5.5mil per win this year.
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… then why does fangraphs have his value at $44.9 million?
patrick – If you showed up at my company with math skills like you are demonstrating right now, you would be fired within 2 minutes.
patrick – because the wins didn’t cost as much when he signed the contract? They cost $5mil for 2011, they were less before, and they are more now.
“I’m just not sure how the break-up of his cost of acquisition for 6 years of his services has any practical implications other the semantics on a fan message board.”
It may have implications for their Rangers’ accounting practices (and luxury tax purposes if the Rangers keep spending), but I hear you. Anyway, it’s all sightly less depressing than discussing the pitcher who is the subject of this blog post.
Again, I think the Kemp signing was the best one of the offseason because it signaled that one of the storied franchises in MLB will be relevant again, maybe quite soon.
patrick – If you showed up at my company with math skills like you are demonstrating right now, you would be fired within 2 minutes.
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Haha ok ..
How about 2 years 60 million for Prince without arbitration? We have him for Jete’s last 2 years to try and win another WS and then he can be at 29 and secure a long term deal either here or elsewhere. Would he and Boras do it?
How did this whole thing start? With a benign statement like, “why didn’t we go all out for Darvish? He only costs/earns $10M a year.”?
That’s a fan POV. Any front office would strongly disagree (and refute) that stance.
“Anyone got any idea when the Yankees will finally announce Pineda and Kuroda?”
I’m still hoping never…
Darvish costs $110+ M to play for six years. Bookkeeping aside, their is that much less money the Rangers have to spend. If the posting fee didn’t matter, their would have been a lot more suitors for him. In fact, the real cost is higher than the same number of six years since their is no discounted value for future costs.
Irreverent Discourse January 19th, 2012 at 11:44 am
best ever – Your inability to give a straight answer to the question tells me everything I need to know.
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Your constant insults to me and everyone else that doesn’t have the same opinion as you tells me everything I need to know.
“This is not what the Yankees signed up for and gave him 180 million for. He’s 1/3rd of the hitter they signed since he only bats RH about 1/3rd of the time or less. He wasn’t brought here just to be a great glove.”
Okay.
And?
This is why signing ANY player (FA or your own) to a big dollar, multi-year deal is inherently a risk.
There ARE no guarantees or reliable metrics that generate sure-fire predictions.
This is baseball. Career arcs vary. Some players have bad years and recover. Some players decline and never do.
Were you against the signing when it happened, concerned about what has now transpired?
If not, I’m not sure what the point of stating facts no one disagrees with are?
Yankees took a risk, as they did with Sabathia, and Burnett, and giving Mo three years 2 years ago, etc.
Risk by definition means a less than desirable result could occur.
Teixeira has had a less desirable 2010-2011. This is not in dispute by anyone I’m aware, including Teixeira.
So I’m ask again, what’s your point?
I don’t mind having Burnett on the team, but we have a surplus of starters that we need to take care of. Sure, having 7 starter’s isn’t so bad, but where will we put them? Phil Hughes deserves another chance in the rotation if only to see if his velocity has returned after his workouts in the offseason. He was injured and wasn’t able to build up enough arm strength.
Garcia is a solid pitcher with some nasty stuff from time to time and we can count on him to pitch 150-180 innings, even if those innings come at a ERA between 4 and 5.
Burnett costs a lot and he’s likely to produce much like Garcia did. It’d be prudent to trade him if we can. Otherwise, he’ll probably get the final rotation spot out of deference to his talent and his salary (though he probably shouldn’t).
It’s a weird problem to have and you have to wonder why Cashman got Kuroda in the first place. I suppose with so many question marks (and Pineda not being a SURE thing) you’ve got to play it safe.
?Anyone got any idea when the Yankees will finally announce Pineda and Kuroda??
I?m still hoping never?
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lol lol lol
“If the posting fee didn’t matter, their would have been a lot more suitors for him.”
But he might make 75% more in AAV, and it’s all taxable to a team like the Yankees.
If there was no posting fee, would (could?) anyone argue against the fact that Darvish would have gotten a much larger contract?
There it is again, effecting everything to do with the deal.
Debating who is the best mathlete doesn’t earn you guys many cool points
best ever – Your constant insults to me and everyone else that doesn’t have the same opinion as you tells me everything I need to know.
Still no answer to the question then? That’s what I thought.
Let’s put it this way. Why don’t the Rangers pay Darvish $12M or $15M? Because they are fronting $52M. You can’t just wave it away. The player is the one who suffers. Let there be a forfeit fee if a percentage of the bid. Bids will come down and japanese players will get their slab of pork belly and the players will get paid what they are worth.
The posting process deflates the money Darvish gets, not the fee. The Rangers have all the leverage in that negotiation because Darvish’s choices are to go back to Japan and make less money, or take whatever the Rangers give him. If the posting fee was less do you really think the Rangers would up their offer to Darvish? Why would they do such a thing?
Again, this is the stupidest argument. I’m done
“Again, I think the Kemp signing was the best one of the offseason because it signaled that one of the storied franchises in MLB will be relevant again, maybe quite soon.”
They weren’t relevant with Kemp and his bear Triple Crown year.
I get what you’re saying, perhaps his signals the Dodgers are back trying keep and acquire top-tier players.
What Kemp does for me is illustrate how I think fans often overemphasize the effect on ONE bat in a 9 man line-up.
Japanese clubs will get their slab…
Debating who is the best mathlete doesn’t earn you guys many cool points
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OH YEAH!? Well MY SAT score was higher than YOUR SAT score. *adjusts glasses*
lol
This is not an opinion here, so get off your high horses.
The Texas Rangers spent $52mil on the posting fee and $60million on the contract. That’s $110m+ spent by the club for one single player that is under their control for 6 years. No matter how you want to break his AAV down, this much money being spent is irrefutable. if they want to make the deal hurt less they will HAVE to sign him to an extension at some point for at or less than $17m/year.
There is literally no argument “against” these things because they actually physically HAPPENED. Without the $52mil posting fee, there is no contract. These things do NOT exist in a vacuum.
Okay, how about this:
Darvish costs Texas $ 62 M in 2012. He costs them $ 10 M a year for 2013-17.
Whether you buy into those silly WAR numbers or not, Matsuzaka @ 103 M for 49 wins and 21 starts per season cannot possibly been “worth it”. By comparison AJ Burnett has been a bargain.
stuckey
They are up for sale. If they risked losing one of the best players in the game during the bidding process, it could cost McCourt some significant change.
im not a sabre guy and i’m not a stat hater but that WAR calculation on salary is a joke and every time it comes up i laugh again.
Ys Guy – You do realize they calculate that based on what is actually spent in FA, and the WAR returns given on that money? it’s not a “joke” it is what it is. If you don’t like WAR, then that’s your issue..
Why are we arguing over Darvish’ cost? I wanted him. It didn’t happen. I hope it is a big financial hit for the Rangers, but they seem to have plenty of money.
I still liked it better when money was of little object to the Yankees. I like smart decision making on players AND a willingness to spend big. Yes, I am a stereotypical greedy Yankee fan.
If I had been making the decisions, I would have tried very hard for Darvish and kept Montero. However, with the Yankees unwilling to spend that kind of money, they had to upgrade their rotation. I agree that it was frugality that led to Montero’s trade, and that is regretful.
However, with that spending reality, the deal for Pineda was a good one.