The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Age and experience (on the field and in the front office)

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 23, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Despite what some of my younger friends like to tell me, I’m not all that old. When I count up my birthdays, I fall somewhere between Ivan Nova and Mariano Rivera. I’m firmly entrenched in my early 30s — young enough to close down a bar and old enough to know better.

There are mornings when my back hurts, my jump shot is long gone and a trip to Taco Bell sounds awful right now…

But most days, I feel like I’ve got a handle on things. I know how to deal with an aching back, I know to stay inside the 3-point arc and I make tacos at home that are actually pretty good. When I’m caught off guard, I don’t reach for the panic switch.

I guess experience counts for something.

As Courtney wrote in this morning’s Pinch Hitter post, the Yankees roster has plenty of age, but it also has plenty of experience. The difference between good and bad is in the way you look at it. It’s also in the way you react to it.

It’s not only the Yankees players who have some age and experience. Brian Cashman has also been around for a while, and he might have learned a thing or two from his years on the job. When Cashman traded his 22-year-old hitting prospect, he got a 22-year-old pitcher in return. When he signed a nearly 37-year-old starter, it was to a one-year deal. When rival GMs asked for the farm, and player agents asked for massive, long-term commitments, Cashman moved on.

Yes, Rivera and Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez are old in baseball years, and there are plenty of concerns that come with age. But the bulk of this Yankees roster is made of players in their late 20s and early 30s, and clearly the organization has put an emphasis on player development that should produce more youth from the minor league system.

Jorge Posada’s retirement, and his final-year struggles, are reminders that age does matter in baseball. Even with the added value of experience, getting older comes at a cost, and the Yankees recognize that.

Associated Press photo

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545 Responses to “Age and experience (on the field and in the front office)”

  1. yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    re-post
    yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2012 at 1:21 pm
    Yanks were first in pitching ERA in the 2011 post season and 6th in hitting, and of that hitting Posada who is now retired was our best hitter.

  2. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    Texas with Prince would be the best team in baseball The Yankees with Prince would be the best team in baseball.

    So is being the best team in baseball enough of a reason to sign a guy?

  3. MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    “I guess experience counts for something.”

    Scientists have been attempting to graft old heads onto young bodies for years but all attempts to do so have so far been unsuccessful.

    :(

  4. RayVT January 23rd, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    You are probably right. I am just trying to discern a dumping of Montero when all these AAA prospects are in the wings.

  5. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    YF – well first you have to get there.

    I would think you would agree that it was extremely unusual not to have any of our players come up in the clutch. Because Posada was our best hitter in the postseason does not mean he was our best hitter in the regular season. You typically look toward your best to continue the trend.

    I don’t think we can take much from our 2011 postseason that is chartable.

    I did not want the Montero trade. At all. I’m still sick about it.

    But I understand what happened from an organizational and pragmatic point of view. When I detach emotion I do my best thinking.

    ;)

    In addition, Yankee pitching got SCREWED by Gerry Davis, the MLB front office, and the weather. Anyone not willing to own up to that is being purely stubborn. (You already have so I’m certainly not talking about you!)

    The 2011 postseason was certainly aberrant in terms of the Yankees being thrown off course by the rain!

  6. J. Alfred Prufrock January 23rd, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    fiveironfromfenway January 23rd, 2012 at 1:01 pm
    prufrock – Yes, Kuroda was a bridge to B&B. But, now the argument is the Yankees have too much pitching insurance.
    ////

    That’s not my argument. My position is that the pitching is healthy, deep and promising enough to preclude giving up your best offensive prospect, and I’ll add not just your best, but perhaps the best young bat in baseball.

    I’ve got to run so I can’t reply to the length of your post, but I’ve made a document of it and will respond later, if that’s alright. I appreciate the thoughtful post, though, and I wish you’d come around more. It’s always a plus to have people in here who are familiar with the system and have a lot to say about it.

    The one thing I’ll say quickly is, as to your point about a young cost-controlled ace, I’m not sure Betances ISN’T that pitcher, in fact, I think he is. I’ve posted in PPP about him as well. It seems I’m one of the few, even in there, who has seen him pitch a lot. As to their rankings (Teale’s?), if Pineda has more “upside” than Betances, it’s negligible. Betances just gets ridiculous swings and when contact is made, it’s rarely true. He gets the most unbelievable amount of groundballs and is yet a classic power pitcher. His change is already plus, and his 3 fbs and curve are crazy good.

    I don’t consider his control problems fatal.

    See you later, and stick around!

  7. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    Ray – operative phrase – “in the wings”. If history has taught us anything it should have taught us to leave well enough alone until it is ready to blossom!

  8. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    Can we just assume for a second that Pineda is as good as you all assume Montero will be? Isn’t that what the Yankees are doing? Hoping for that?

    If he’s that good, and turns out to be an ace… I’d rather have that locked up for the next 6 years than a DH.

    200inning starters are responsible for 14% of your innings, and guys that K like Pineda get 1/3 of their outs without the other team even touching the ball. 700 plate appearance batters (top 3-4 spots in the lineup generally) are 10% of your at-bats.

    So starting pitchers are riskier investments, but responsible for a larger percentage of your overall season… quite a conundrum.

    All things considered, the upside for both of these players is sky high. I know we all have differing opinions on the likelihood of those “good” outcomes… let’s look at the lower limits.

    Pineda being a pitcher could obviously completely wash out, so that is on the table. Montero can hit there is no denying that, how well he can hit will be determined over the net few years as the pitchers in the league adjust to him and he adjusts back. His floor may be that of a slightly above league average hitter in the DH role? In these worst case scenario’s, either can be replaced via FA if necessary.

    In their best case scenario’s… I think Pineda should have a greater overall effect on the team’s success. It’s easier to hide the difference in production through payroll/FA/trades with 8 hitters than it is with 4 starters.

  9. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    YES carrying the Posada presser tomorrow at 11 aM EST and YESNETWORK is also carrying it.

    BryanHoch Bryan Hoch
    If you’re in front of the computer tomorrow, the Jorge Posada press conference will be streamed at http://www.mlb.com/live

  10. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    Sorry, that’s MLB.com

  11. RayVT January 23rd, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    True! But Pineda is in the wings too as far as I am concerned. (Like Hughes, Joba, Nova & Noesi were/are.)

  12. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    Scott Swaim @MLBInsideNews 38m Fielder to be in DC tonight to finalize deal.

    Swaim putting his fake reputation on the line..
    ..actually hope its true on this one

  13. Rich in NJ January 23rd, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    “Can we just assume for a second that Pineda is as good as you all assume Montero will be? Isn’t that what the Yankees are doing? Hoping for that?”

    So maybe they will end up trading one of the Killer Bs for the offense that Montero would have provided or gotten back in a trade.

    Because at some point in the next few years they will likely need a young impact bat.

    I think it’s unlikely they can get an impact bat under 27 who doesn’t play 1B in a trade, but maybe I will be proved wrong.

  14. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    What does Fielder/Harper/Strasburg/Zimmerman make the Nats in the NL East? Do they have wildcard hopes in the new system?

  15. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS 1h i think posada is better hall candidate than bernie or even pettitte. #retirement. on @CBSSports. tinyurl.com/6w6uv

    I agree Jon….get your group think cronies on board

  16. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    ID – I think this is well past the point of you and everyone else having to make arguments to quell the unrest.

    I was definitely not in favor of trading Montero. I would have wanted to keep him at all costs. But I also was fine going into the season with an uncertain rotation and hoping for the best. Seasons and postseasons are not won that way.

    I think we scored huge by getting Pineda. I’m not sold on Kuroda but the Yankees are and they are who counts.

    You don’t want to ever rush up another pitcher before his time. We’ve gotten killed doing that and worse, we’ve probably derailed the careers of some very promising young arms.

    I am still devastated by having Montero elsewhere – I am convinced that he is a phenom and is going to be in a class of his own. That said, I understand why things happened the way they did. I believe our pitching has now pushed us over the top of the heap. I’m hoping the Yankees secure a credible DH. Johny Damon to me is credible. Someone his calibre or a little better certainly will be helpful.

  17. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    “What does Fielder/Harper/Strasburg/Zimmerman make the Nats in the NL East? Do they have wildcard hopes in the new system?”

    If Strasburg stays healthy…..yes

  18. pat January 23rd, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    “So is being the best team in baseball enough of a reason to sign a guy?”

    Sox and Phillies were declared best team last winter.

    I’m not someone who thinks you need an all star at every position so that’s why I wonder if a Prince signing is overkill on a team that has better than average power already. Would a higher BA guy instead add a dimension that’s been missing?

  19. coney1 January 23rd, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    Blake,

    Folks claim that the Yankees have the best offense in baseball because they did last year. However, that was due to a great year from Cano, a career year from Granderson, and 2nd half renaissance from Jeter, RBI production from Teixeira, decent years out of Martin and Gardner, and some production out of Jorge in the DH hole. Swisher gave them power but that’s pretty much it and A-Rod was productive when healthy. However, this year they have no DH, Jeter and A-Rod a year older and A-Rod with suspect health in his hip and knees, Tex deflating into an all-or-nothing type hitter, who knows with Martin and Swisher, and Gardner who is light-hitting. If everything doesn’t break their way, there is no way they have as good an offense as Texas even if Texas DOESN’T sign Fielder. If they do, forget it, it’s not even close. There is no guarantee Granderson replicates his career year.

    I don’t even know how you can compare Jeter (old), A-Rod (unhealthy and old), Cano, Tex (aging with the bat quicker than anyone thought), Granderson, Swisher, Martin, Gardner, and “To Be Announced” at DH as a better offense than Napoli, Hamilton, Cruz, Andrus, Kinsler, Moreland (possibly Fielder), Young, etc.

  20. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    “But Pineda is in the wings too as far as I am concerned”

    Pineda has shown he can start. He was really successful for a half of a season and then innings caught up to him. In Seattle they needed him to be a big gun. The Yankees do not need that. I think if they slotted him in the 5 spot, they would help save his arm, and he could progress at a natural rate.

    The others who truly are in the wings need to be there until they are camera ready.

  21. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    “Sox and Phillies were declared best team last winter.”

    Neither of those teams have been to the WS two years in a row.

  22. coney1 January 23rd, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Texas has Beltre also

  23. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Rich in nj – I firmly believe that you are right. Well… i hope you are right. :) To me… over-strengthening the pitching staff is key to all things in baseball right now. Young pitching is the key to acquiring anything you want. If you consider how the Lee deal went down, they are better than money because at least you can control the situation better. If a few things go right, hopefully they will be able to make a move for someone that plays a more useful position like SS/3B/RF.

  24. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    coney1 January 23rd, 2012 at 1:54 pm
    Blake,

    Folks claim that the Yankees have the best offense in baseball because they did last year. However, that was due to a great year from Cano, a career year from Granderson, and 2nd half renaissance from Jeter, RBI production from Teixeira, decent years out of Martin and Gardner, and some production out of Jorge in the DH hole. Swisher gave them power but that’s pretty much it and A-Rod was productive when healthy. However, this year they have no DH, Jeter and A-Rod a year older and A-Rod with suspect health in his hip and knees, Tex deflating into an all-or-nothing type hitter, who knows with Martin and Swisher, and Gardner who is light-hitting. If everything doesn’t break their way, there is no way they have as good an offense as Texas even if Texas DOESN’T sign Fielder. If they do, forget it, it’s not even close. There is no guarantee Granderson replicates his career year.

    I don’t even know how you can compare Jeter (old), A-Rod (unhealthy and old), Cano, Tex (aging with the bat quicker than anyone thought), Granderson, Swisher, Martin, Gardner, and “To Be Announced” at DH as a better offense than Napoli, Hamilton, Cruz, Andrus, Kinsler, Moreland (possibly Fielder), Young, etc.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    There’s a simple answer to your concerns and contant drooling over Texas.

    Delta’s ready when you are.

  25. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    Coney,

    Can’t really argue….I think the Yanks offense will still be good….but they are carrying more risk these days

  26. Rich in NJ January 23rd, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    ID

    I disagree. If young pitching enables you to acquire anything you want, why couldn’t the Killer Bs have yielded Pineda or a similar pitcher, at least along with Romine or Martin?

    I think pitchers under 26 are too susceptible to injury (and in Pineda’s case need too much more development) to spend a large amount of resources on, so the smarter play is to grow your own in bunches and let the wheat separate itself from the chaff. Of course, that takes a good development program and the Yankees have failed in that area, which is why we are where we are.

  27. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    There is no guarantee Granderson replicates his career year.

    I for one was expecting this out of Granderson when he first came over. He should be hitting 20-25 HR’s in home games each year.

  28. fiveironfromfenway January 23rd, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Prufrock – Thank you.
    I read the forum daily but rarely have time to post.
    It is interesting to be in Boston. They are distracted by the Patriots and Bruins at the moment, but the Sox have issues.
    It will be an interesting battle in the AL East all year.

  29. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    I think Granderson can be this player permanently …..but let’s be real….he just had a season that was markedly better than any other he’s had and he’s now on the wrong side of 30.

  30. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    blake January 23rd, 2012 at 1:58 pm
    Coney,

    Can’t really argue….I think the Yanks offense will still be good….but they are carrying more risk these days

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    There’s plenty to argue over his one-sided view of things. Hamilton’s constant injuries, beltre’s off and on again career, pitching, Fielder not being a Ranger (only his hopes and dreams), weak bat from Andrus, Cruz staying healthy, Napoli not being a one year flash…

  31. EsquireMatt January 23rd, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    First post here for me, heyas all.

    Sad to see Hip Hip Jorge going away. While he couldn’t beat father time, he was able to beat just about everyone else. If he doesnt make the HoF it would be a mistake.

    As for the current state of the team, as much as I am sad to see Jesus gone, I am excited about Pineda. Fact of the matter is with the age of the sluggers, tying up a DH for the foreseeable future is a problem. I think a lot of Yankee fans were hoping for a return of Felix, but that was unrealistic.

    I firmly believe Pineda can be a fixture in the rotation for many years. Montero is a great talent too, but unless he can catch, or play in RF, he would be a cumbersome part of the lineup. I’ve seen so many posts about balance winning championships not pitching. I agree with that, but in reality the Yankees starting pitching talent was CC alone. Yes, other guys came up big here or there, but there are enough bats in the lineup to produce.

    Even without Montero, it is arguably the best lineup in baseball. Also, now that they have enough pitching depth, they can trade someone in july for a bat if they need. The fact of the matter is top pitching prospects arent available often. Let alone a guy who has a year under his belt and a HIGH k/9 in the majors. The Yankees did well. They are setting up for the future, without sacrificing the present.

  32. Rich in NJ January 23rd, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    “I for one was expecting this out of Granderson when he first came over. He should be hitting 20-25 HR’s in home games each year.”

    But will he hit

    .272 .347 .597 .944 (2011)

    or

    .234 .292 .354 .647 (2010)

    v. LHP?

  33. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    GB,

    The Rangers have been to the WS two years in a row…..its not wrong to say they are a good team……

  34. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Did I mention the aging Michael young?

  35. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    Well as the saying goes, the only soul I can save is my own. While I am not thrilled with losing Montero, I do feel more confident overall, especially with our pitching.

    I believe in moving on. Mourning things I can’t control has never worked for me.

    Hope others can make peace with this eventually. Otherwise it will make for a not-so-pleasant season for you.

    Have a good day y’all.

  36. DONNYBROOK January 23rd, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    Chad has either Never had, or is geographically unable to go out and buy a Double-Double at In-N-Out. Makin’ tacos at home? Not if there is an In-N-Out around.

  37. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    rich in nj – I don’t think you really disagree at all… Pineda is simply another “farm” piece… just one that they didn’t spend the time developing. He’s 23 and technically “a year ahead” of Montero in his development having spent his first full season in the majors last year. This is developing the staff, keeping it young and cost controlled.

    Pay $40-$50mil for 1 or 2 stud aces, “grow” the rest… spend the other $120-130mil on the lineup. :) Fire anyone that gives a reliever a contract over $10mil again. :)

    I can only hope that the development program is changing now that meddling hands are not touching the farm system anymore. The richest team in baseball not having the most extensive development program is embarrassing.

  38. RayVT January 23rd, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    My point is that Pineda is basically the Hughes AS version all over again. Teams started to figure him out as he lost gas after AS break.

    That said I like the promising SP with Nova, Hughes, Pineda, Betances, Banuelos, Joba etc, but not a lot more than Nova, Hughes, Noesi, Betances, Banuelos, Joba etc. Especially if you have to lose Montero to get an upgrade to Pineda.

  39. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:06 pm
    GB,

    The Rangers have been to the WS two years in a row…..its not wrong to say they are a good team……

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    When or where did I say they weren’t a good team? They have the same sort of issues as NYYs do.

  40. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    “Did I mention the aging Michael young?”

    He was kinda good last year…..and he’s a complimentary player at this point.

  41. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    EsquireMatt – excellent post. I agree with all of your points. I think a point some are missing – or haven’t thought about – is that we are likely going to have some candidates for the DH spot in the not-too-distant future, candidates who are tethered to the team for a while to come. Yankees probably thought about that too.

    Good to have you aboard.

  42. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    trisha,

    Actually if you look closer at Pineda’s second half stats, he was just as good in the second half.

    I don’t like the trade because I think Montero will be a lot better than Pineda in the long run. But ripping Pineda and saying he’s not going to be good is just silly. There are question marks but Pineda looks like an ace in the making..

  43. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    I’m not someone who thinks you need an all star at every position so that’s why I wonder if a Prince signing is overkill on a team that has better than average power already. Would a higher BA guy instead add a dimension that’s been missing?

    Fielder has hit .299 2 of the past 3 seasons. He is a pretty solid hitter.

  44. fiveironfromfenway January 23rd, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Esquire,
    Thank you for the post. Hope to see you often.
    I agree with your assessment. Fact of the matter is the Yankees don’t have many places to put positional players at the moment. Certainly no infield spots. Not center. Can conceivably upgrade a corner but Montero was not going to play there.
    Cheap cost controlled picthing is the key to the kingdom. I know CB posts frequently about maximizing positional leverage by the yankees.
    But, in my opinion this new philosophy will aid in that regard not detract.
    Also, I think you will see some additional trades like the secondary part of Montero for Pineda – i.e. Noesi for Campos. Probably a group of Mitchell, Phelps, Warren, Corban Joseph, etc for lower level, really high ceiling players. Players that will be ready when some of the core Yankees are ready to move on.

  45. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    “When or where did I say they weren’t a good team? They have the same sort of issues as NYYs do.”

    Not really….they have more position players in their prime. I think them and the Yankees are the best two teams in the AL on paper right now…….

  46. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    But will he hit

    .272 .347 .597 .944 (2011)

    or

    .234 .292 .354 .647 (2010)

    v. LHP?

    Hopefully the former, the likely result is somewhere in between those two lines.

  47. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Teams started to figure him out as he lost gas after AS break

    They also have video to work on picking up your pitches as the season goes on and pitch sequences you are using… how is this surprising for a young pitcher?

    Developing young players, whether they are pitcher or hitters is about making adjustments. The league will eat you up and spit you out if you come up and try to do your “same old thing” unless you have some magical gift like Mariano. It is how you adjust to the mountains of data focused on getting you out/getting hits off of you that determines your career and your success.

    If success in the minors has shown us anything, it shows that it is a good indicator of initial big league success, but little more.

  48. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    “Teams started to figure him out as he lost gas after AS break.”

    What can first, the chicken or the egg? The same thing happened with Alexi Ogando. When you put too many innings on an arm, the arm isn’t the same. Of course hitters figure you out.

    A little bit of prudence with Pineda can go a long way. The guy has GREAT stuff.

    JMO

  49. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Fielder would be amazing on the Yankees but do you really want another huge contract on the books? If he’s willing to take a short term deal I’m all for it but otherwise, no way in hell do I want him on the team.

  50. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Equirematt,

    Welcome….that’s a reasonable take and probably lines up with the Yankees hopes.

  51. Rich in NJ January 23rd, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    ID

    A farm piece that they have shown no ability to develop? Put him with TB’s people and then maybe…

  52. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:08 pm
    “Did I mention the aging Michael young?”

    He was kinda good last year…..and he’s a complimentary player at this point.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    So did jeter in 2009.

  53. DONNYBROOK January 23rd, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    All that matters is gettin’ into the Playoffs, and bein’ hot at that time. Nothin’ else. NOT who has the best team in April. NOT who has the best team on paper, NOT who has the best arms in the minors. The Cards proved this.

  54. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    “But ripping Pineda and saying he’s not going to be good is just silly. There are question marks but Pineda looks like an ace in the making..”

    I couldn’t agree with you more. I think that ripping Pineda is a necessity for those who cannot let go of losing Montero.

  55. pat January 23rd, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    “Neither of those teams have been to the WS two years in a row.”

    Not sure what that has to do with whether the Yankees need to sign Fielder to be the best team or whether it is even important to be considered the best.

    Last team standing > best team.

  56. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    I couldn’t agree with you more. I think that ripping Pineda is a necessity for those who cannot let go of losing Montero.

    I can’t let go of losing Montero but I’m not going to rip Pineda like randy has. I think Pineda has more question marks than Montero, he’s a lot bigger risk BUT he looks like a really good player right now

  57. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:11 pm
    “When or where did I say they weren’t a good team? They have the same sort of issues as NYYs do.”

    Not really….they have more position players in their prime. I think them and the Yankees are the best two teams in the AL on paper right now…….

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    and they can’t keep two of them on the field. They’re no better than NYYs offensively.

  58. Rich in NJ January 23rd, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Saying that you think that the Yankees’ inability to develop starting pitching puts the chances that Pineda will reach his ceiling with them in question is hardly ripping him.

    That’s not directed at anyone in particular. I’m merely making a point.

  59. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Rich in NJ – But most of the work has been done already, as shown by his successes last season. If TB developed a pitcher, called him up for one year and then traded him to the Yankees you wouldn’t be happy?

    Yes, he needs to expand the use and effectiveness of his third pitch. His other two were good enough to K batters at a rate that only 2 starters in baseball matched last year.. one of them won the Cy Young.

    Pineda will be the first new piece handed to Rothschild, and he is exactly his type of pitcher. Let’s be excited, no?

  60. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    Saying that you think that the Yankees’ inability to develop starting pitching puts the chances that Pineda will reach his ceiling with them in question is hardly ripping him.

    You’re right, that’s not ripping him, and you have a valid point. The only person I’ve seen that’s legitimately ripping Pineda is randy….

  61. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    “and they can’t keep two of them on the field. They’re no better than NYYs offensively.”

    I disagree….I think the difference coukd be minimal but Id take Texas’s offense for 2012 over the Yanks right now. Doesn’t mean the Yankees can’t beat them….but all there is right now is “on paper” comparisons.

  62. EsquireMatt January 23rd, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    Thanks for the kind words.

    A few quotes around are about how Phil Hughes was “figured out.” That is an aberration. Rivera has been throwing the same 1 pitch his entire career. You know its coming, but it doesn’t matter. The real issue with Phil Hughes wasen’t predictable tendencies. It was losing mph on his fastball. It also became very flat, which is more likely the cause of getting hit.

    If he can keep his fb 94+ w/ movement and have another pitch (curve, change, etc) to keep the hitters honest, he will return to his All Star form. Will a third and fourth pitch help? Of course, but do we really expect Phil Hughes to be in the category of a Verlander, Felix, and Price? I doubt it. But if he can be a solid #3, the Yankees should be very happy.

  63. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    DONNY – unfortunately, that has proven to be true.

  64. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    A few quotes around are about how Phil Hughes was “figured out.” That is an aberration. Rivera has been throwing the same 1 pitch his entire career.

    Sorry, but Rivera is the abberation. Hardly anyone throws 1 pitch successfully.

  65. randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    Patrick
    You just agreed with my position on Pineda and montero
    I think it’s dumb to trade a high probability offensive player for higher risk pitching prospect

  66. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Phil Hughes getting hit was the aberration… not the fact that Rivera has been throwing the same 1 pitch his entire career?

    Pitchers can get by with less than 94mph heat, Hughes can to he just doesn’t know how to. Mo’s pitch is magic because it has almost perfect deception, much like Robertson’s fastball because of his delivery and release point. Hughes fastball is not his magic, he just need to be able to locate his other pitches to keep hitters honest.

  67. EsquireMatt January 23rd, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Jerkface,

    I completely agree, but even with a 2 pitch pitcher, a hitter can sit dead red for one of them regardless of tendencies. My point was that Hughes lack of success was due more to his stuff than hitters scouting.

  68. Phranchise January 23rd, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Look at comparable pitcher Pineda age and you will see numbers that look similar. The big difference in the second half for him was walks up, velocity dipped and he gave up runs. Strikeout totals were still more than 1 an inning. He also had a bad three game stretch which accounted for a lot of it. 7/9 7 earned in 5 against the Angels, 7/19 5 earned in 6 innings against the Jays and 7 earned in 4 innings versus the Red Sox. Overall this seems like normal struggles for a kid that is this young. And they also contribute to his road numbers looking worse as all were away games.

    Look at King Felix’s first few years as well. Same questions could be asked of him no? Except Pineda’s whip was much lower for the year and his overall results were better.

  69. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    patrick – as I said, I think that ripping Pineda is from folks who CANNOT let go of Montero.

    There are many of us sickened by the loss but having the ability to put it into some kind of perspective.

    Perhaps I should have said folks who WILL NOT let go of losing Montero.

    In any event, you know what I mean.

  70. Mordot11 January 23rd, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    Hal is trying to nickel and dime his way through the offseason. I’m fine with this, so long as we pay prices that are equal to the prices paid in other cities around the country You think if George was alive we wouldn’t sign Prince in deference to the salary cap? He would be in Pinstripes so fast it wouldn’t even be funny. Having to beg Hal for 10 million to sign Kuroda is laughable. I hope I’m wrong, but I foresee a repeat of the 1980s in our future, with emptying stands each year until Hal figures out his dad had it right.

  71. dogface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    he just had a season that was markedly better than any other he’s had and he’s now on the wrong side of 30
    =========================

    Granderson’s 2007 was probably as good as his 2011.

  72. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    blake,

    Yankees..

    Jeter SS
    Granderson CF
    Teixeira 1B
    Rodriguez 3B
    Cano 2B
    Swisher RF
    Jones DH
    Martin C
    Gardner LF

    Texas ..

    Kinsler 2B
    Young DH
    Hamilton CF
    Cruz RF
    Beltre 3B
    Napoli C
    Moreland 1B
    Murphy LF
    Andrus SS

    I guess those are the best lineups you can put together for each team. They actually look very even, I think both offenses will produce a lot of runs and be 1 and 2 in the league. Not sure which one I’d prefer, probably Texas because the heart of their order is younger than the Yankees and less likely to regress.

  73. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    Granderson clearly got into some bad habits in Detroit which K-Long has completely eradicated. Making any judgements on Grandersons performance are risky, but I would lean more towards the way he’s been hitting the last season and a half (leads the majors in RBI’s and is like top3 in HR’s since the K-Long “change”).

  74. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    The problem with Texas is that they have Yu Darvish and we don’t. :twisted:

  75. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    You just agreed with my position on Pineda and montero
    I think it’s dumb to trade a high probability offensive player for higher risk pitching prospect

    I’ve been saying it for days, I do agree with you. I don’t like the trade at all. What I DON’T agree with is the way you evaluate Pineda. He could be a really good pitcher for the Yanks. You think he’s going to be in the bullpen. I don’t agree with that.

  76. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    “I think it’s dumb to trade a high probability offensive player for higher risk pitching prospect”

    Unless the organization feels there is no place to keep the high probability offensive player and believe the only slot for him will be needed sooner rather than later. And they in turn believe they have more of a need to take the risk with the pitching prospect because they believe they need the pitching more now and in the future.

    I think I’ve outlined what actually happened.

  77. Phranchise January 23rd, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    Hughes other problem is the games where he has a lack of control. In the minors his control was impeccable. And in the majors when he has that even sitting at less velocity he has been decent if not impressive when the velocity gets up there. The issues I have being a big fan of his is the games where you can tell he doesn’t have it and can’t battle through it. He has mound presence when he is zipping the ball in and doesn’t if his control is faltering. He seems to just “not have it” some nights. Where some guys like CC can get thru it and regain control. You also have guys like AJ who have it and then could suddenly implode in one inning. If Hughes can get a third half way consistent average pitch then he should be much more complete. But there are plenty of guys who essentially throw 2 fastballs and an offspeed/curve or whatever with a few offspeeds mixed in that can make it thru with being able to locate. Beckett’s high fastball is supposedly as straight as can be that when it’s over the plate it just gets wrecked. That’s why I am partially surprised Hughes doesn’t have a splitter rather than the cutter which faltered. The tight curve is essentially his offspeed.

  78. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    Well I vote for the Yankees.

    The rest remains to be seen.

    :)

  79. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    I’ll take our DH/Martin/Gardner over their Moreland/Murphy/Andrus, and CC beats Darvish in game 1. :)

  80. randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Trisha
    A smart hitter will eat up over time a pitcher with only two pitches

    A lot of hitters are guess hitters

    The Seattle catcher himself said in the first half of the season that Pineda would need another pitch the second half

    He was right wasn’t he?
    So that’s where it’s at
    If Pineda really was an ace in the making I’d have no problem with this trade
    As he stands today with two pitches he’s a three or four at best

  81. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    By the way, if the Yankees keep Montero their lineup is significantly better than Texas’ .. just saying

  82. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    and CC beats Darvish in game 1. :)

    Darvish is a righty, incoming futility from our offense :(

  83. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    http://www.rlyw.net/index.php/.....pitcher_b4

    The catcher was pretty clearly wrong, because Pineda was better in the second half.

    So many heads buried in the sand on this trade, it’s so frustrating to read.

  84. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    As he stands today with two pitches he’s a three or four at best

    He wasn’t a 3 or 4 last season..

  85. pat January 23rd, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    No one wanted to see Montero traded. The spin after the fact is where opinions varied

  86. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    He wasn’t a 3 or 4 last season..

    He was an Ivan Nova grade 2 or 3. (Nova crushed him in ERA+)

  87. RayVT January 23rd, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Sorry if anyone thought I was ripping Pineda! I just would rather have Montero & Noesi than Pineda. It is just that simple to me. A #4 hitter in Montero vs a young SP who performed (2011) similarly to Hughes (2010). I believe this happens all too often to young SP because the league figures them out. Montero, IMO, has zero holes in his swing and is a beast with the bat. I am dumbfounded as to why the Yanks traded him. This is zero to do with Pineda & all to do with Montero.

    Perhaps in a few years or more the Yanks can re-sign Montero as a FA.

  88. 86w183 January 23rd, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    I’m already starting to dread this place every time Montero hits a HR or Pineda picks up a loss.

    Steve Carlton was pretty much a two pitch guy as was Greg Maddux. Certainly a 3-pitch repetoire is ideal but many use their third pitch only 5-10 % of the time anyway.

    Randy —- It’s a bad trade if you assume the best of Montero and the worst of Pineda. It’s a great trade if both are as good as they are projected to be.

  89. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    “Granderson’s 2007 was probably as good as his 2011. Granderson’s 2007 was probably as good as his 2011.”

    Curtis hit .160 and had a .494 OPS vs LHP in 2007. He had a good year that year but he was a platoon player and had he not nosedived in September of last year his 2011 would have been significantly better. He was a better player…..and a less flawed player last year than ever

  90. MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    Guys arguing over wether the Yankees or the Rangers have the BEST offense in the AL.

    Does it really matter if one of them happens to have a Superior rotation, the best BP in baseball, and a really solid D ?

    Taken together doesn’t that combo almost guarantee success. Would being the # 2 O really set them back ?

    Sounds like the Yankees are very well positioned to succeed to me.

    :)

  91. randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Trisha
    What you have outlined Is a gm of questionable ability in developing pitching acquiring a pitcher who is an unfinished product and needs to be developed

  92. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    “Not sure which one I’d prefer, probably Texas because the heart of their order is younger than the Yankees and less likely to regress.”

    I agree and that’s what I said…..I think Fielder would take either lineup to another level

  93. Phranchise January 23rd, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    And by all accounts the other kid in this trade slots right behind Banuelos and Betcances as possibly our third best stud upside pitcher at what age 19????? Quite a few people seem to think his ceiling is as high as Pinedas.

  94. jacksquat January 23rd, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Pineda neither lost gas nor was “figured” out in the second half of 2011. How many times does this need to be explained?

  95. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    Fukudome would be an intriguing player to trade for, he and Andruw Jones represent a lefty-righty DH that can play the OF. Fukudome has good on base skills and may return some power in NYS.

  96. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    Cashman has not been afforded the opportunity to “develop” a pitcher without him getting traded or called up too early… ever in his career as the Yankees GM? I think Betances will be the first one to not have been meddled with?

    Judging him based on things he did not completely control is fair? Does Cashman hire the entire minor league development and coaching staff too?

  97. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    Quite a few people seem to think his ceiling is as high as Pinedas.

    Campos was a good get but he is in A ball. He needs some time and innings before he is the next anything.

  98. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    Does Cashman hire the entire minor league development and coaching staff too?

    Yes. General Manager usually oversees all hiring of lower personnel?

  99. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    He was an Ivan Nova grade 2 or 3. (Nova crushed him in ERA+)

    Oh come on ERA+?

    3.53 xFIP vs 4.16

  100. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    jerkface- wasn’t sure, i wonder if he gets hamstrung on the budget for that or something? What possible excuse can the Yankees have for not having the best staff in place? :(

  101. LGY January 23rd, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    Isn’t Fukodome a free agent?

  102. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    randy, from that perspective I can understand your position. But if the Yanks did decide that they wanted to free up the DH spot for the near future and did decide that they needed pitching, they probably made the best move they could have.

    I personally am very high on Pineda and believe he can be a one or a two, but maybe that will mean him developing another pitch. With Rotschild, there’s a much better chance of that happening than there would have been with Eiland, IMO.

  103. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    Comparing Pineda to Nova is utterly hilarious. If anything, Nova’s success in the Bronx should serve as a precursor to Pineda’s dominance.

  104. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    “Fukudome would be an intriguing player to trade for, he and Andruw Jones represent a lefty-righty DH that can play the OF. ”

    Are you Bobby Valentine? ;)

  105. EsquireMatt January 23rd, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    Do people actually believe Montero is a sure fire cant miss? Top prospects flop out all the time. I don’t think he will, but 61 MLB ABs aren’t exactly a large sample size. Alex Gordon hit .327 for a month in his rookie year. It still took him 4 years to be a complete MLB hitter as he was last year, and your guess is as good as mine if he does it again.

    I also dont see how Pineda a “high risk”. 3 years ago he was shut down in Rookie ball with elbow soreness. Am I missing something?

  106. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    LGY – Fukodome is arb til 2014

  107. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    Oh come on ERA+?

    3.53 xFIP vs 4.16

    Predicative stats don’t tell you what Pineda was last year, which wasn’t a number 2 or 3 (unless Nova was as well). He still gave up enough runs to have a worse ERA than Ivan Nova, luck be damned.

  108. jacksquat January 23rd, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:40 pm
    He wasn’t a 3 or 4 last season..

    He was an Ivan Nova grade 2 or 3. (Nova crushed him in ERA+)

    Come on JF, ERA? (which is what ERA+ is based on)

    Only use advanced statistics when it backs up your argument?

    Pineda FIP 3.42 xFIP 3.53

    Nova FIP 4.01 xFIP 4.16

    I like Nova, but Pineda pitched better last year and is likely to be better in the future.

  109. Phranchise January 23rd, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Fukudome is a free agent. I also never realized how old he was, assumed he was younger for some reason. He’s 35 and never proved to be a reliable player. Would rather see them give someone else a shot to play out there than him. At that age I would rather just pay Ankiel for a year and see if his swing translates to the stadium.

  110. randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Jerkfacec
    Pineda never again gets to pitch as an unknown as he did for the first half of last year
    Did he get to a five + era because he was working on a change or did he get there because the league figured him out

    The Seattle catcher flat out said they wouldn’t be missing his fastball for long if he didn’t develop a good change

    The seattle catcher doesn’t think Pineda is a 2 or 3
    Of course he was just catching him

  111. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    jerkface – luck be damned is the whole point lol :)

  112. MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    ID-

    He does decide when they are called up though.

    That’s pretty critical.

    Does he consult ? I’m sure. But the ultimate decision is HIS.

    The credit or blame must fall at his feet. It depends on him having sound judgement.

  113. Rich in NJ January 23rd, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    ID

    That assumes that development is linear, and that’s not always the case.

  114. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    jacksquat – That’s not fairly using what xFIP represents. Pineda controlled the game better than Nova did, by all indicators should have had a better season than Nova… but actually did not.

  115. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    lgy – n/m what i just said… Fukodome was granted FA after the WS, i forgot.

  116. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    How does Pineda, if he wasn’t a 3 or 4 last season, give up more runs per 9 than a guy who is pitching worse when Pineda is facing easier offenses and in a more friendly park? Just saying he was about what Ivan Nova was last year.

    Not saying Nova is going to be better than Pineda or anything. You guys are jumping in when I didnt say anything about them other than that Nova crushed pineda in ERA+ (which he did!).

    ERA isnt predicative and can be luck based but at some point it matters when discussing what happened on the field. Its why I dont like pitcher WAR because it uses FIP. A pitcher out performing his FIP is more valuable in a given season than 1 underperforming it (assuming they are close in FIP or whatever you guys should understand what Im getting at).

    I think Pineda is in much better shape to pitch well next season than Nova. Nova is a ground ball pitcher though, so FIP might not be the best for him ;)

  117. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    jerkface stop trolling man, we both know Pineda was way better than Nova last year

  118. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    rich in nj – isn’t this entire conversation riddle with assumptions? You don’t get to pick and choose my assumptions unless I get to choose yours :)

  119. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    we both know Pineda was way better than Nova last year

    At everything except not giving up Runs. Pineda was not a #1 or #2 last season, which was the point of the comparison.

  120. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    At everything except not giving up Runs. Pineda was not a #1 or #2 last season, which was the point of the comparison.

    Might as well just quote their records as an argument. Pineda was 9-10, clearly a 3 or 4

  121. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    jerkface – Pineda was not a #1 or #2 last season, which was the point of the comparison.

    Do you make that determination of who is your #1 or #2 by who gives you the best chance, or the best results?

  122. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    Pineda had a higher k/9, lower bb/9, gave up less hits per innings pitched, lower average against … but had a higher ERA therefore had a worse year than Nova?

  123. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    patrick- That’s not fair because Pineda doesn’t control what the offense scores. He gave up the hits and the walks that scored the runs, whether it was the defenses fault or his own at some point he has to be responsible for the events that took place on the field.

    When attempting to then “predict the future”, then you look at xFIP and the like to find the “how’s and “why’s” of the results (the ERA).

  124. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    That’s not fair because Pineda doesn’t control what the offense scores.

    I was being sarcastic dude

  125. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    I guess at this point the best we can do is to be predictive since nobody can know for sure.

    I’m predicting Pineda is going to kick ass and take numbers and that we’ll see it in his first season with the Yanks.

    Time will tell whether I am right. Naturally, I am going to assure you that I am.

    :D

  126. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    patrick – quoting wins should never be joked about :p

  127. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    Do you make that determination of who is your #1 or #2 by who gives you the best chance, or the best results?

    Building a rotation going forward? Best chance. Looking back on a season? Best results. When you tabulate everything that happened in a season, actually giving up less runs is better than “giving up less runs if we remove defense from the equation and equalize everything to its norms”.

    Pineda is much better positioned to be good going forward than Nova (other than ground ball rate), I will happily say he has a better chance to be a difference maker next season. Doesn’t change what he did last season compared with Nova. In the end he had a worse ERA with a better everything to do it with.

  128. dogface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    Curtis hit .160 and had a .494 OPS vs LHP in 2007. He had a good year that year but he was a platoon player and had he not nosedived in September of last year his 2011 would have been significantly better. He was a better player…..and a less flawed player last year than ever

    =================================

    7.8 fWAR in 2007
    7.0 fWAR in 2011

    Same wOBA in both years. Same slugging %age. Slightly better OBP in ’11. Much higher batting average in ’07. 84 extra basehits in ’07. 77 in ’11. Much better basestealer in ’07.

    He was not significantly better in ’11. Just took a different way of getting there.

  129. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    jerkface – It would be more appropriate to say that Pineda pitched like a top of the rotation starter (i hate the #1/#2 thing), but the results were not there. Nova got better results in 2011, but chances are going forward he will not see them again.

  130. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    Clay Buchholz was super lucky when he had his 2 ERA year, doesnt change the fact he had a 2 ERA… just like Pineda was fairly unlucky compiling a worse ERA than Ivan Nova, but in the end Nova had a better ERA in a worse division/stadium to do it in! There is value in that. Even if the value has already expired because the season is over :)

  131. jacksquat January 23rd, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    Long term I’ll take the guy that threw the ball better over the guy that probably had more luck.

    That said I hope they both do great.

  132. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    jerkface – It would be more appropriate to say that Pineda pitched like a top of the rotation starter (i hate the #1/#2 thing), but the results were not there. Nova got better results in 2011, but chances are going forward he will not see them again.

    I think Pineda falls right into the middle of the rotation right now, a #3. A guy with high upside that hasn’t put together the dominance yet to claim a 1 or 2 spot. Its all folksy crap anyways with those denominations, but to actually BE a 1 or 2 they have to actually limit the runs, not just wish they could limit them (if only for that pesky defense and non-neutralized HR rates!)

  133. MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    Who will have then best ERA and w/l record this season.

    Nova
    Kuroda
    Hughes
    Pineda

    Any predictions ?

  134. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    jerkface – It would be more appropriate to say that Pineda pitched like a top of the rotation starter (i hate the #1/#2 thing), but the results were not there. Nova got better results in 2011, but chances are going forward he will not see them again.

    This. And the whole point of the argument is that randy said he is a 3 or 4 right now. Which is not true based on how he pitched last year. Because the way he pitched last year indicates he will not be a 3 or 4 in 2012.

  135. Best To Ever Do It January 23rd, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Phranchise January 23rd, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    And by all accounts the other kid in this trade slots right behind Banuelos and Betcances as possibly our third best stud upside pitcher at what age 19????? Quite a few people seem to think his ceiling is as high as Pinedas.

    ———————–

    That’s what makes me scratch my head about the deal.

  136. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Who will have then best ERA and w/l record this season.

    Nova
    Kuroda
    Hughes
    Pineda

    Any predictions ?

    Kuroda

  137. Nick in SF January 23rd, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Does anyone have a link to a quote of a Seattle catcher saying that he doesn’t think Pineda is/will be a 2 or 3 pitcher?

    TIA

  138. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    Fukudome is a free agent. I also never realized how old he was, assumed he was younger for some reason. He’s 35 and never proved to be a reliable player. Would rather see them give someone else a shot to play out there than him. At that age I would rather just pay Ankiel for a year and see if his swing translates to the stadium.

    Ankiel is worse than Fukudome and Fukudome has pretty appreciable skills that the Yankees could find value in from a DH. He walks and plays solid if uninspiring (average to above average corner) defense. They arent getting a power threat to DH since the choices seem to be boiling down to Damon or whatever, so I’d take Fukudome for 1 year. He’ll get on base vs righties and there should be no worry putting him in the field.

  139. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    Because the way he pitched last year indicates he will not be a 3 or 4 in 2012.

    if he underperforms his FIP again he will be a 3 or a 4 :)

  140. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Jim Callis compares Pineda vs Darvish. also Montero and the draft rotation for 2012 including supplimental positions and player picks for those not signed. NYYs have 3 picks in the first 87 picks.

  141. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Not to muddy the waters, but in the name of fairness, Nova pitched in a tougher division.

    I still believe in Pineda’s stuff but felt the need to point that out. The unbalanced schedule is the worst enemy of those teams playing in the toughest divisions.

    GRRRR!!!!!

  142. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    Callis link.

    jimcallisBA Jim Callis
    Ask BA: Yu Darvish vs. Michael Pineda; #Mariners C Jesus Montero; #WhiteSox OF projects, updated #mlbdraft order. http://ht.ly/8Doqb

  143. randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    Trisha
    No offense but you predicted cervelli was going to be a starting catcher too
    Wishful thinking is nice and positive but it isn’t very real

  144. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    MTU – best ERA – Pineda. Best W-L – Hughes

  145. jacksquat January 23rd, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 3:06 pm
    Who will have then best ERA and w/l record this season.

    Nova
    Kuroda
    Hughes
    Pineda

    ERA can be partly a result of luck, but I’ll go with:

    CC
    Pineda
    Kuroda
    Nova
    Garcia

    And W/L greatly depends on run support, which can vary wildly from starter to starter, so I won’t bother trying to predict wins.

  146. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    if he underperforms his FIP again he will be a 3 or a 4

    ok

  147. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Nova
    Kuroda
    Hughes
    Pineda

    Any predictions ?


    CC ~3 ERA <– best FIP
    Nova ~3.9 ERA <— 4th best
    Kuroda ~3.65 ERA <— 3rd best
    Hughes ~4.15 ERA <— 5th best
    Pineda ~3.7 ERA <– 2nd best FIP

    Wins?

    CC ~20
    Nova ~12
    Kuroda ~14
    Hughes ~10
    Pineda ~12

    Wins are a crap shoot

  148. Phranchise January 23rd, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Well the Mariners have a few studs down on the farm on top of these guys. What they didn’t have was a Montero bat. Same reason we all loved Montero. At his age, not earning anything, he is one of the most cost efficient stud hitters in all of baseball IF he pans out regardless of position. The Mariners can wait on all their young players and then pitchers to develop. Yankees needed a high end starter who was controlable which if not King Felix is Pineda or a few handful of young guys. So Mariners have no huge use for Pineda to win now or sell tickets, so they can wait on other guys and let Montero, Smoak and Ackley struggle some. Yankees can also wait and see on a 19 year old arm in single A to slot into the equation years from now. And just like any other promising arm, single A stats don’t mean much as there are plenty who have had success and never made it beyond AA.

  149. charlestonchew January 23rd, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    I would LOVE it if we could sign Matsui for the season!

    I just realized how awesome it could be to have him split time at DH with Andruw Jones. Honestly, Matsui is just a beast and a clutch player. Maybe not consistently anymore. Sure, his production is way down, but he could come cheap. A reunion would just be fantastic from a fan perspective.

  150. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    “He was not significantly better in ’11. Just took a different way of getting there.”

    Ok even if I give you that he was horrendous vs LHP then……and those two gears are a lot better than his others…..just saying. I hope he continues to be what he was last year.

  151. jacksquat January 23rd, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 23rd, 2012 at 3:07 pm
    Phranchise January 23rd, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    And by all accounts the other kid in this trade slots right behind Banuelos and Betcances as possibly our third best stud upside pitcher at what age 19????? Quite a few people seem to think his ceiling is as high as Pinedas.

    ———————–

    That’s what makes me scratch my head about the deal.

    Campos reportedly has a very nice fastball with exceptional command of it, but his breaking pitches are raw and need lots of work, which is not unusual for a 19 year old.

  152. charlestonchew January 23rd, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    I think Nova is going to put up a Chien-Ming Wang 19 win type year with a few more K’s. It’s not crazy to think 3.5-3.6, 19wins. He’s got the stuff and he’s got the competitive spirit. He really pitched well last year. I don’t see him regressing in the way many of our other pitchers have. Hughes will hover around a 4.1-4.3 ERA and get about 12 wins, giving us the hope that he really has turned it around. CC will be CC. Pineda will struggle a bit and have numbers similar to Hughes in his first year in pinstripes.

  153. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    “No offense but you predicted cervelli was going to be a starting catcher too
    Wishful thinking is nice and positive but it isn’t very real”

    No offense taken randy. Cervelli’s life isn’t over, unless I missed a headline.

    I think I’ll stay with my prediction. It doesn’t have to be yours for me to feel comfortable with it.

    (I also predicted that Posada would not be catching Burnett in the 2009 postseason and I believe you were in disagreement with that. So nobody bats 1000 all the time, hey?)

  154. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 3:10 pm
    Trisha
    No offense but you predicted cervelli was going to be a starting catcher too
    Wishful thinking is nice and positive but it isn’t very real

    Cervelli could start for other teams… pitchers and coaches clearly like him so he must be doing something right and a .330OBP catcher is not the worst thing in the world.

  155. randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    The American league east isn’t so bad for Yankee pitchers because thet don’t face the Yankee offense

  156. Phranchise January 23rd, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Amazing that Nova went in the Rule 5 draft and we got him back.

  157. dogface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    Not to muddy the waters, but in the name of fairness, Nova pitched in a tougher division.

    ===========================

    That can be a bit overstated. Nova and Pineda actually both made 9 starts against AL East teams in 2011. Pineda started 9 against AL West teams, to Nova’s 7 and Pineda didn’t get the benefit of facing the the Mariners lineup.

  158. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    In light of the Yankees’ acquisition of Michael Pineda and the Rangers’ signing of Yu Darvish , who is the better long-term prospect on ability alone? Ignore their respective contract situations, which clearly favor Pineda.

    Eric Rothfeld Livingston, N.J.

    Though I’m still leery of the track record of Japanese imports, I’d take Darvish over Pineda. Darvish has a better body (6-foot-5 and 225 pounds vs. 6-foot-7 and 260), better fastball life and command and a deeper repertoire.

    Pineda isn’t far behind Darvish, however, and at 23 he’s two-plus years younger. He throws a consistent mid-90s fastball and mid-80s slider, and he struck out 173 in 171 innings as a rookie last year. He also will cost a lot less, as he won’t be eligible for arbitration until after the 2013 season. Meanwhile, the Rangers will spend $107.7 million on Darvish over the next six years (between his posting fee and major league contract).

    That said, if I ran the Yankees and had their financial resources at my disposal, I’d prefer to spend the money on Darvish and keep Jesus Montero rather than saving cash by using Montero to get Pineda from the Mariners. New York did make an astute move by getting hard-throwing teenager Jose Campos in the Montero/Pineda trade.

    From GBs link. I find it interesting his sure folks are that Darvish is going to be a top of the rotation guy here…..he may very well be and I agree about with the part about spending the money and keeping Montero …..but in a vacuum id rather have Pineda because he’s younger and he’s actually pitched with success in the big leagues

  159. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    The American league east isn’t so bad for Yankee pitchers because thet don’t face the Yankee offense

    This is a great point, the AL East is not significantly harder than the AL West with the Yankees eliminated from your ERA. Boston = Texas, Toronto = LA Baltimore = Oakland…

  160. MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    Wow !

    The predictions are all over the lot.

    GB-

    Callis says a couple of things I find pretty amazing.

    That darvish has better command.

    That his Fb has more life than pineda’s.

    Why do I doubt that is true ?

    Isn’t he assuming that Yu’s excellent command will translate to the bigs ? No nibbling ?

    Also, more life than Pineda’s ? I kinda doubt that. He’s at 97 and I have heard his ball is not straight.

  161. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    Orioles and Rays pitchers are real “AL east” pitchers

  162. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    Darvish or Pineda? I’d rather have Darvish…

  163. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    I bet Callis has never even seen Darvish pitch live.

  164. Nick in SF January 23rd, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    The AL East is toughest for the Orioles; they have to play a lot of games against four superior teams.

  165. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO…..Vince is back on TV selling “Stickies”.

  166. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    “Cervelli could start for other teams… pitchers and coaches clearly like him so he must be doing something right and a .330OBP catcher is not the worst thing in the world.”

    Thank you.

  167. MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    I think Callis needs to watch Pineda a bit more.

    He seems way off on this one.

    ;)

  168. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    “Darvish or Pineda? I’d rather have Darvish…”

    Money and Montero aside Id rather have Pineda…..Ill not drink the Darvish Kool-aid until he actually…..you know…..does something in the big leagues.

  169. MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    I’m with you Blake.

    Darvish needs to show the money in the Bigs first.

  170. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    For runs scored in the AL, the AL East teams were all in the top 8. When you have 5 teams in the top 8, I’d say the division is a little more formidible than just the Yankees.

    But thanks for playing!

  171. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    MTU, I just posted what he said. It’s not like I’m trying to keep stirring the pot. Smoke it, yes, but, not stir it.

  172. MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    GB-

    No way ! You would never do that any more than Randy would.

    Besides we both know guys like Callis are perfectly objective and never wrong.

    :)

  173. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    “The American league east isn’t so bad for Yankee pitchers because thet don’t face the Yankee offense”

    I beg to differ. They face four of the top 7 offenses in the AL.

  174. LGY January 23rd, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    Quality of opponents

    Ivan Nova: 759 OPS

    Michael Pineda: 760 OPS

  175. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    I beg to differ. They face four of the top 7 offenses in the AL.

    4 of the top 8. 1 That is actually the top. Rays and Balt were actually 7 and 8 in the ‘top 8′

  176. LGY January 23rd, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    Why is there always so much hand wringing about this subject?

    Baseball prospectus -> Statistics -> Pitcher’s Quality of Opponents

    There’s your answer.

  177. m January 23rd, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    Great post, Chad.

    Prince can’t go to the Rangers. Just can’t

    pat,

    I agree that Prince is overkill. But only in the light of budgetary boundaries. There’s no overkill when trying to improve your team. There is only overkill in payroll. Adding Prince now will make the payroll strain under his weight. At least until some if the contracts come off the books. And is there a better player for us on the horizon?

  178. Best To Ever Do It January 23rd, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    jacksquat January 23rd, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 23rd, 2012 at 3:07 pm
    Phranchise January 23rd, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    And by all accounts the other kid in this trade slots right behind Banuelos and Betcances as possibly our third best stud upside pitcher at what age 19????? Quite a few people seem to think his ceiling is as high as Pinedas.

    ———————–

    That’s what makes me scratch my head about the deal.

    Campos reportedly has a very nice fastball with exceptional command of it, but his breaking pitches are raw and need lots of work, which is not unusual for a 19 year old.

    ————

    True he still has to develop and hopefully he does. The thing that makes me wonder is if Jesus is just a DH and Noesi develops into a solid starter like a number 4 why would the Ms give up two pitchers who project to be front end guys for those two. I understand they have other pitchers on the way but….

  179. MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    Nova and Pineda are 2 different types of pitchers.

    Pineda is more of a power pitcher but at the moment Nova is the more complete pitcher.

    I really love Nova. How could you not after what he’s done ? +++ attitude too.

    Answer : you can’t.

    :)

  180. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    Quality of opponents

    Ivan Nova: 759 OPS

    Michael Pineda: 760 OPS

    Argument over.

  181. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    And three of the four teams in the AL West were in the BOTTOM 5 in offense.

    I’m not trying to talk us out of liking Pineda, just point out the disparity in the unbalanced freakin schedule. If our pitchers had to pitch to the weakest offenses the majority of the time, guess what? I bet they’d be mighty rested by the time the postseason rolled around!

    :evil:

  182. jacksquat January 23rd, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    I would not say Darvish’s fastball is better than Pineda’s. He does have more pitches and has thrown 200+ innings the past 5 years. Pineda has the better body for pitching, Davish has better mechanics. Really the only legitimate criticism of Pineda here is that his delivery does look like it is more likely to lead to injury, however it could be comfortable and work for him. Everyone thought Lincecum’s arm was going to fall off too.

  183. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    “4 of the top 8″

    4 of the top 7. Since they don’t face themselves, they are removed from the equation.

  184. Irreverent Discourse January 23rd, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    trisha – It’s much more complicated than just lookinga t the runs scored of the teams in the division, starters don’t face the same teams, or all teams in a division every season. OPS against shows that Nova and Pineda had essentially the same
    “difficulty of schedule” based on the starts they actually made.

  185. m January 23rd, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Ignore OPS of opponents. Ignore who signed who originally. Ignore divisions. If you like Nova, then there’s no reason why you wouldn’t like Pineda.

    As soon as he puts on pinstripes, he’s a Yankee. Wait and see, instead of knocking him.

  186. dogface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    I’m not trying to talk us out of liking Pineda, just point out the disparity in the unbalanced freakin schedule.

    ==============================

    So even though both Nova and Pineda had the SAME number of starts against AL East teams last season, the imbalanced schedule means Nova had it harder?

  187. Nick in SF January 23rd, 2012 at 3:46 pm

    “And three of the four teams in the AL West were in the BOTTOM 5 in offense.”

    Is one of those teams… the Mariners? If so, they should also be removed from the equation.

  188. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    “Rays and Balt were actually 7 and 8 in the ‘top 8?”

    Right. They were not found in the bottom 5. But the Angels, Athletics, and Mariners were. In fact, they occupied 10, 12, and 14.

    Don’t know what trip you’re off on, but we were talking about the offenses the AL East pitchers had to face vs. the offenses the AL West pitchers had to face. The facts speak for themselves. Unless you want to try to twist this yet another way.

  189. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    LGY ended this conversation 15 minutes ago. Pineda and Nova faced equal competition…

  190. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    “Is one of those teams… the Mariners? If so, they should also be removed from the equation.”

    Yeah and since there are only 4 teams in the AL West, they have an even easier time with the unbalanced schedule. So 2 of the three teams the Mariners faced were in the bottom 5 of the AL.

  191. dogface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:49 pm

    Do the posts that actually explain why Nova did not face more difficult competition than Pineda somehow not appear on some computer screens?

  192. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    4 of the top 7. Since they don’t face themselves, they are removed from the equation.

    Removing the Yankees from a top anything gives unfair rank ups to the teams below them. They stay, it should be assumed Nova did not face himself.

  193. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    John Sickels farm rankings. Read ‘em and weep. Be prepared for a troll invasion.

    http://www.minorleagueball.com.....-prospects

  194. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    John Sickels farm rankings. Read ‘em and weep. Be prepared for a troll invasion.

    Haha what a joke

  195. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    “LGY ended this conversation 15 minutes ago. Pineda and Nova faced equal competition…”

    I don’t think so.

    AGAIN – I’m not trying to talk anyone out of Pineda. I love the guy and think he’s going to be great for the Yankees. But nobody will tell me that an AL West pitcher faced tougher competition than an AL East pitcher sorry.

  196. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    Seems like losing Jesus tanked the farm ranking. Jesus was an A rated prospect by Sickels and now he is on the Mariners which kicked them up to 4

  197. LGY January 23rd, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    The facts speak for themselves. Unless you want to try to twist this yet another way.

    ——

    The facts are not on your side on this one Trisha.

  198. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    “Removing the Yankees from a top anything gives unfair rank ups to the teams below them. They stay, it should be assumed Nova did not face himself.”

    BFD. Then AL West pitchers faced 3 of the bottom 5 worst offenses.

    See ya now!

  199. ac1 January 23rd, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    Of the 4, Kuroda is more likely to have the best era and w/l….
    Again hard to say as the AL East stadiums are some of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball, for one reason or another.

    .

  200. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    Do the posts that actually explain why Nova did not face more difficult competition than Pineda somehow not appear on some computer screens?

    willful ignorance

  201. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    LGY – my point is that the AL East offenses, overall, are tougher than the AL West offenses.

    Period.

  202. Nick in SF January 23rd, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    I’m reading the posts and it seems the question is, did Ivan Nova pitch against tougher competition than Michael Pineda in 2011?

    The more compelling argument is, no, he did not.

  203. ac1 January 23rd, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    How about we let Pineda show us whether he can be a success before attacking him?
    He didnt ask to be traded for Montero………

  204. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Again, don’t mistake my pointing out what is FACTUAL with my belief in Pineda. I think he is going to be great with the Yanks.

  205. RayVT January 23rd, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    I loved the part that Sickels stated that you could make a case for Yanks being 12th or 13th! LOL! Just behind his beloved RSox at 11.

    Fortunately things are played out on the field. LOL!

  206. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    The Yanks were gonna lose Montero from the farm this year regardless and that’s a big piece to lose…….the Yanks probably aren’t in the top 10 anymore really if you weigh more based on the upper levels.

    Sigh some good fortune the Yanks will be back up there in a year or two as the Sanchez’s and William’s get to AA

  207. MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    GB tossin’ in the grenades today.

    :)

  208. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    That said…..there is no way the Sox should be that high…..everything they have is in the lower levels also and they don’t have Betances and Banuelos knocking on the big league door in AAA…….

  209. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    This was Sickel’s rankings BEFORE “The Trade”.

    http://www.minorleagueball.com.....rm-systems

  210. Tom in N.J. January 23rd, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Nova started against A.L. East teams 9 times.

    Pineda started against A.L. East teams 9 times.

  211. Patrick January 23rd, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    This was Sickel’s rankings BEFORE “The Trade”.

    http://www.minorleagueball.com…..rm-systems

    Still laughably bad, in my opinion

  212. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 4:00 pm
    GB tossin’ in the grenades today.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    I’m an equal opportunity grenadier

  213. Nick in SF January 23rd, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    Tom, did Pineda start any of those 9 times vs. the Yankees?

    Nova did not.

  214. m January 23rd, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    What you CAN argue is Pineda will benefit from more run support.

    :)

  215. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    RayVT January 23rd, 2012 at 3:58 pm
    GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    I loved the part that Sickels stated that you could make a case for Yanks being 12th or 13th! LOL! Just behind his beloved RSox at 11.

    Fortunately things are played out on the field. LOL!

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    The George Burns of writers?

  216. Tom in N.J. January 23rd, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    1

  217. blake January 23rd, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    Pineda pitched against the Yankees in Seattle and they hit him pretty well if I remember correctly.

  218. Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    Sickels himself says he does not like to do farm rankings. I pay more attention to his reports on individual players. He was very high on Montero as an impact hitter.

  219. GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    Pineda made one start against the Yanks. no decision, 3 runs (earned) in 5 innings

  220. Nick in SF January 23rd, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    Thanks. I’m actually more optimistic about Pineda than I was before this conversation.

    Without knowing the numbers, I would have made the facile assumption that Pineda faced easier competition because he played in the AL West and Nova in the AL East, but now I understand that they faced virtually identical offensive competition and now the numbers make sense.

    In 2012, Pineda won’t have to face the Yankees, but unfortunately he’ll face the new Motero-Mariners if he lines up against Seattle.

  221. Nick in SF January 23rd, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    Speaking of which, welcome to the Yankees, Michael Pineda! :arrow:

  222. trisha - true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    Michael Pineda had finished pitching to the AL East by August 21st.

    Ivan Nova faced 5 of his 9 AL East teams from the end of August on.

    It’s not really a secret pitching wears down as the season wears on.

    Same OPS? Nova all the way.

    Now you want to try to squeeze some more stats?

    You really should know better than to just throw cold stats up on a screen and think I’m going to bite.

  223. randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 4:29 pm

    “The fastball is great, they’re still missing it, but in July and August he needs to come with something better,” Mariners catcher Miguel Olivo said.”

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html

    for the pollyannas concerning pineda,i would think it’s a little hard to ignore what his own catcher said.

    as it was , he was right on too.

    a lot of people are misunderstanding my position with pineda. i think its entirely possible that he’ll be an ace. i put that possibility at about 10%.

    this 10% is based on the the 10% chance he has to develop a plus change.

    it’s 50/50 he develops a decent change with the yankees .
    when is the last time a young pitcher has added a decent change to his arsenal ?
    it’s nice to hope, but at this point people are hoping pineda will develop a decent change.

    that’s a very different thing than if they traded montero for pineda with an already decent change already developed.

    pineda is in a sense a fixer upper.
    if the yankees fix him up .
    they have a ace.

    if they don’t they have a two pitch pitcher who’s a three or four.

    this isn’t that complicated.

    right now pineda is 5.00 era guy with two pitches in yankee stadium.
    at this point he has no way to attack lefties.
    will that chance?

    that’s what we’re going to see.

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