Cashman exploring trade market for designated hitter
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 23, 2012 
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During a conference call to discuss the Michael Pineda trade, Yankees general manager Brian Cashman acknowledged his opening at designated hitter but said the free agent market is a “secondary” focus in trying to fill that vacancy. He will “first and foremost” look at the trade market to find a hitter.
“Maybe I use our excess pitching to find a bat,” Cashman said. “That’s a possibility.”
Without using Hiroki Kuroda’s name, Cashman said there’s another pitching addition that’s almost finalized, and the Yankees “stretched the payroll to get that done.” He indicated that signing Kuroda has left little to spend on a hitter.
Cashman wouldn’t speculate on an Opening Day rotation, and he wouldn’t say whether he considers Freddy Garcia, A.J. Burnett or Phil Hughes to be options for the bullpen. It’s clear, though, that he’s willing to deal one of his extra arms to find a bat.
“I just know we’re deeper,” he said. “And that means we’re better.”
UPDATE, 5:36 p.m.: The Yankees have passed along a quote from Pineda.
“I’m feeling great and I’m beyond excited. I never thought I would become a New York Yankee so early into my career. This is the best thing in the world. Pitching alongside CC Sabathia, I’m speechless. And playing alongside players such as Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter is unbelievable.”
Cash can’t risk saying which starter is ticketed for the bullpen and potentially hurt their trade value.
I like those quotes…..except the one about trading Montero.
Seattle / King Felix mega diss!
Pineda contintued: “This is the best thing in the world. Pitching alongside CC Sabathia, I’m speechless.” (more)…
26 seconds ago
»
Sweeny Murti
YankeesWFAN Sweeny Murti
Pineda” I’m feeling great and I’m beyond excited. I never thought I would become a New York Yankee so early into my career.”
LGY January 23rd, 2012 at 5:21 pm
@ESPNNYYankees
we are one of the deeper catching organizations in the game, and we’re really deep in offense — Cashman on trading Montero
wallace matthews
ESPNNYYankees wallace matthews
Cashman: Maybe we use one of our excess pitchers to get a bat
6 minutes ago
___
How are these “quotes” (I don’t think I ever quoted the word quote before) not contradictory?
btw, No one is deep in Montero type bats.
“Brian Cashman gets MUCH worse around these parts.
Why the different standard?”
Are you suggesting that posters on a Yankees blog should be held to the same standard as a national media member who gets paid for what he writes?
“How are these “quotes” (I don’t think I ever quoted the word quote before) not contradictory?”
Seem to me they’re consistent with the thesis of many of this forum all along.
The Yankees ARE a deep offensive team, but DO have an open spot in their line-up to FURTHER their offensive advantage.
“Are you suggesting that posters on a Yankees blog should be held to the same standard as a national media member who gets paid for what he writes?”
Nice!
stuckey January 23rd, 2012 at 5:32 pm
“How are these “quotes” (I don’t think I ever quoted the word quote before) not contradictory?”
Seem to me they’re consistent with the thesis of many of this forum all along.
The Yankees ARE a deep offensive team, but DO have an open spot in their line-up to FURTHER their offensive advantage.
**********
This. Concise and precise.
“The Yankees ARE a deep offensive team, but DO have an open spot in their line-up to FURTHER their offensive advantage.”
If you are really deep, the natural implication is that you can replace that bat with a similar in-house bat. They can’t.
“Are you suggesting that posters on a Yankees blog should be held to the same standard as a national media member who gets paid for what he writes?”
To A specific standard regarding basic towards others, yes.
“I never thought I’d be a Yankee so early in my career”
Like I said, who (besides Felix and Lee) wouldn’t want to be a Yankee?
basic respect towards
Anyone hear about this Jesus Montero kid? I hear he may make a great DH bat.
Is it too much to ask that people be civilized to each other?
Something is up.
I think Cashman will wait for the Kuroda deal to be final, and then the shoe will drop.
Think left handed power, perhaps underappreciated.
Which pitcher he gives up will determine how good.
Cash can’t risk saying which starter is ticketed for the bullpen and potentially hurt their trade value
==========================
Doesn’t have to worry about that w/ Burnett or Garcia.
“Seattle / King Felix mega diss!
Pineda contintued: “This is the best thing in the world. Pitching alongside CC Sabathia, I’m speechless.” (more)…”
It reminds me of the old Stephen Stills song, “Love the One Your With”
“To A specific standard regarding basic towards others, yes.”
Ok but the format for this is different ……it’s anonymous ….its a place for fanatics (fans) to express opinions and vent at times. None of us are tweeting to our national audience with CBS attached to the end of our name…….that said…..I so agree that Jon Heyman of posters on a blog should avoid getting personal with criticisms of players, managers, GMs …etc.
“If you are really deep, the natural implication is that you can replace that bat with a similar in-house bat.”
No, that’s the very subjective implication. You’re actually contending there is a objective definition of “deep” here?
I’ll say it again. Disagreeing with Brian Cashman does not make him a bogeyman, yet here you are, taking the FIRST words he’s spoken about thr trade to try to find a contraction, to demonize/discredit him.
Sad state of affairs.
But I can’t talk more, I’m late for my homophobics anonymous meeting. Tonight they’re trying aversion therapy by making us watch 4 back-to-back episodes of Modern Family.
Try this on for size:
AJ Burnett for Kevin Youkoulis.
Solves a need for both clubs (and the collective head of this blog explodes).
“Think left handed power, perhaps underappreciated.”
Chin shoo choo!
@YankeesWFAN Sweeny Murti
Montero revealed that A-Rod threatened to fine him $100/day last Sept because he wasn’t going to the cage enough. Went every day then.
“No, that’s the very subjective implication. You’re actually contending there is a objective definition of “deep” here?”
What good is depth if you it isn’t sufficient to fill a perceived void.
“I’ll say it again. Disagreeing with Brian Cashman does not make him a bogeyman, yet here you are, taking the FIRST words he’s spoken about thr trade to try to find a contraction, to demonize/discredit him.”
If not for strawman arguments, you’d be mute.
Pineda” I’m feeling great and I’m beyond excited. I never thought I would become a New York Yankee so early into my career.”
—————————————————
That’s actually kind of funny.
He’s lazy
ProspectInsider Jason A. Churchill
Jack on conf call says Jesus Montero will get every opportunity to catch.
Doesn’t sound like Cashman os looking for a bat’ Sounds like he’s looking for a BAT. If the Nats sign Fielder, look for somebody like Adam LaRoche or bigger, like KC’s Billy Butler.
Who could Cashman get for-
AJ- Cashman couldn’t give him away (big money contract), much less get a DH for him.
Garcia-a #5,6 pitcher. A good hitter for him, doubt it.
Hughes-Coming off an off year, his value is low.
Unless Cashman is going to trade some other pitcher for a DH.
Sure sounds like Hughes is on the block, but I don’t think they’re going to get a very good bat for him unless they package him with someone else.
I hope people who hate the trade will at least give Pineda a fair shake; it’s not his fault he was traded here.
GB-
But which pitcher gets shipped out to get that BAT ?
Trading Hughes when his value is at an all-time low would be terminally stupid. So stupid that it won’t happen.
MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 5:48 pm
GB-
But which pitcher gets shipped out to get that BAT ?
————————————————————————————————————————-
If it’s Butler, it’s somebody to go with Betances plus Warren/Phelps and another. Joseph or Nunez? NYYs make a run on Keppinger?
Guess who’s back licking her chops at the thought of getting rid of the guy that spurned her?
“I never thought I would become a New York Yankee so early into my career.”
This is the new trend.
Prospective teenage pitching phenoms in Latin America read LoHud and figure out that they should sign with franchises like the Mariners and the Rays so they can be properly developed and then cash in and go for rings with the Yankees.
But which pitcher gets shipped out to get that BAT ?
============================
Has to be Nova or Hughes…….doesn’t it?
GB-
Do you think Betances is as highly thought of by other organizations as he is by the Yankees ?
Butler would really be a coup as a DH.
He’s a great young hitter.
“What good is depth if you it isn’t sufficient to fill a perceived void.”
Yankees depth 1 through 8.33 (which their run total of 2011 serves as evidence of) doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be logical to look for an option for .66 (a left-handed DH).
Yankees could sign Oscar Gamble (in this present condition) to DH against righthanders and they’re still be a deep offensive team, again, if we’re correctly referring to depth as relative to the other 29 ML teams.
Billy Butler would be close to a BAT wouldn’t he?
Offer Hughes for Ellsbury just to enrage their new GM.
DF-
yeah. That’s kind of what I thought someone might say.
StoneLarry Larry Stone
Cashman on Montero: “We believe he can be an every-day catcher in the big leagues. Really, it was more trading from an area of strength…
33 minutes ago
@YankeesWFAN Sweeny Murti
Montero revealed that A-Rod threatened to fine him $100/day last Sept because he wasn?t going to the cage enough. Went every day then.
i wonder if that little tidbit is an indication of something that we fans don’t know (how could that happen?) that factored into the trade.
gb – you’re onto something, also. butler, laroche, or maybe jason bay. for aj. he’s already mentioned things like, if aj is in the rotation. between aj and hughes, hughes has the bigger upside so i think cash would want to hold onto him; given the emphasis he’s placed on starting pitching, i think he wants to hold onto hughes.
Why does it have to be Nova or Hughes? Yanks gain nothing from the trades and Hughes needs to build on to his career before he has any more value. Sweeten it by getting Garcia to agree to the trade.
lol yea ok
.” Really, it was more trading from an area of strength…”
False
burnett for dunn?
trisha – true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 2:14 pm
“But ripping Pineda and saying he’s not going to be good is just silly. There are question marks but Pineda looks like an ace in the making..”
I couldn’t agree with you more. I think that ripping Pineda is a necessity for those who cannot let go of losing Montero.
///
Sorry trisha, but this comes off as a bit disingenuous.
It’s like some of you are inventing a smear campaign on the part of regular bloggers here against the new Yankee to justify your own lack of ease with criticism of the trade overall.
Since we’re all in here reading fairly regularly, I’m not sure how you folks are going to pull off trying to pin this “ripping” on people who have never even remotely posted anything like it.
Who, other than one regular here, is “ripping” Pineda?
Really, he doesn’t need your protection from the fake bogey man, and I don’t think, if this is your goal, that you’re going to emotionally blackmail people into not speaking their mind about the trade.
I think Butler coukd grow into a .300/30/100 type bat in the yankee lineup
@YankeesWFAN Sweeny Murti
SEA GM Jack Zduriencik said this was “old fashioned baseball deal,” talent for talent. Compared it to Josh Hamilton for Edinson Volquez.
MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 5:54 pm
GB-
Do you think Betances is as highly thought of by other organizations as he is by the Yankees ?
Butler would really be a coup as a DH.
He’s a great young hitter.
————————————————————————————————————————–
Butler is getting pretty close to an 8 figure salary. I don’t know what it would take, but Nova and Hughes wouldn’t be part of it.
GB-
I would not trade Nova, and I would be reluctant to part with Hughes.
Really don’t want to do that.
Garcia. Sure. Phelps, Warren, and Mitchell are completely fungible.
I think it takes alot to get a guy like Butler. Kid can hit and he’s only 25.
Billy Butler would be close to a BAT wouldn’t he?
==========================
Can’t imagine “Banuelos” wouldn’t be Moore’s immediate response should Butler’s name come up. Very affordable contract for the Royals.
Edison Volquez
Nova for….
Garcia cannot be traded because he just signed a contract, A.J.’d be a salary dump, Hughes’s value is down
“burnett for dunn?”
Id do it…..don’t see why the white Sox would though.
With Bay…..you’d have tonconvince him to waive that Omar Minya special vesting option (17 million) for 2014 before even considering that IMO
GB-
So you think the Royals can’t afford to keep Butler ? Too expensive for them ?
Dayton Moore would demand Nova for Butler.
You want to protect someone who needs it?
How about Hughes?
He’s the most abused young Yankee starter since Joba Chamberlain.
“Jack on conf call says Jesus Montero will get every opportunity to catch.”
When Jack Z said that, was he looking up from the podium or was he reading from old Yankee quotes about how Jesus Montero will get every opportunity to catch?
“Can’t imagine “Banuelos” wouldn’t be Moore’s immediate response should Butler’s name come up. Very affordable contract for the Royals”
Eh….he’s their most expensive player and he’s a DH…almost 9 million a year is a lot more for KC than it is for the Yankees.
Dayton Moore would demand Nova for Butler
======================
He’d demand more than that.
@YankeesWFAN Sweeny Murti
SEA GM Jack Zduriencik said this was “old fashioned baseball deal,” talent for talent. Compared it to Josh Hamilton for Edinson Volquez.
——
I hope not. The Reds got took on that trade.
I’m not trading Banuelos for Butler.
JU maybe. Stanton. Somebody of that caliber.
Of course, but I’d never offer Nova in the first place.
I tend to doubt they’ll end up getting Billy Butler, but I’d certainly be on board if they could pull that off.
Still wouldn’t make up for trading Montero but at least it would be a good start.
Can’t see Burnett going for another bad contract like Dunn, though. Would Cashman send another $20 mil to the Nats for LaRoche, who gets 8 mil this year and a 10 mil team option for 2013? LaRoche had labrum surgery last year.
Dayton moore could ask for Manny but the reply should be “How does it feel to want ?”.
“Yankees depth 1 through 8.33 (which their run total of 2011 serves as evidence of) doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be logical to look for an option for .66 (a left-handed DH).”
When you sacrifice an impact bat and have vulnerabilities at 3B and SS due to injury/age concerns, respectively, and your 1B produced diminishing offense v. RHP over the last two seasons, to think that you have a surfeit of offense that can easily be filled by some fungible LH DH is to embark a slippery slope. Impact bats can only be replaced by impact bats, and they have no depth there.
hi, gf
Tom in NJ
Garcia could be traded if he agrees to it. An extra mil or an extra year?
yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2012 at 5:56 pm
StoneLarry Larry Stone
Cashman on Montero: “We believe he can be an every-day catcher in the big leagues. Really, it was more trading from an area of strength…
33 minutes ago
Looking at the C position offense/defense, that’s an unassailable position that no one could dare question. If you do, you’re unfairly bashing Cashman.
GB-
BJ Upton had that and I think it took a while for his bat to come around. It may not only affect throwing.
Okay, it would never happen because they’re in the same division and hate one another with a passion, but purely just for fun.
The Orioles have the worst pitching in the majors by a considerable margin and a lefthanded bat whose numbers are going the wrong way the last 3 years and maybe needs a change of scenery.
So what pitcher(s) would you be willing to give up to take a chance on Nick Markakis?
IF you’d want him, assume they Orioles wouldn’t let him go easily and make it hurt, but hurt just enough to do it.
Markakis for Adam Warren is not trying hard enough…
Hello, Joe. How are things with you on this busy Monday?
What good is depth if it isn’t sufficient to fill a perceived void
///
“Depth”, by just about any other definition, doesn’t even have any meaning.
You’re not exactly trading from “a position of strength” when you have no impact bats (at catcher or anywhere else for that matter) even close to major league ready.
GF-
It’s pretty obvious they see it differently.
Rich, QFT. Cash knows best.
Hughes the starter may not have much value but what about Hughes the set-up guy?
We now need a DH and a catcher who can hit.
Hughes the starter may not have much value but what about Hughes the set-up guy?
=============================
I fear that Larry Andersen for Jeff Bagwell put the kibosh on “set-up guy for hitter” trades.
So, what do you all think about this:
YankeesWFAN Sweeny Murti
Montero revealed that A-Rod threatened to fine him $100/day last Sept because he wasn’t going to the cage enough. Went every day then.
As per Montero, it was motivational to “light a fire under Montero;” let’s not revise for personal agendas. ARod’s done the same thing with all the kids; that is why Alex is a great leader and the young players look up to him.
Hughes has *less* value as a set up guy. If we dealt him we would be selling low. Plus we should still attempt to develop Hughes, as per our new mantra.
YankeesWFAN Sweeny Murti
Montero revealed that A-Rod threatened to fine him $100/day last Sept because he wasn’t going to the cage enough. Went every day then.
__
It’s incredibly sad that A-Rod could have been used to help mold this kid into an offensive great, yet they sacrificed him because they think Martin, who has one of the worst approaches at the plate I have ever seen and has been fragile in his career, is thought to be a great find because, well you know, the pitchers say they love him, and that’s important even though pitchers didn’t love Posada, and he could go to the HoF.
Nick in SF January 23rd, 2012 at 6:02 pm
“Jack on conf call says Jesus Montero will get every opportunity to catch.”
When Jack Z said that, was he looking up from the podium or was he reading from old Yankee quotes about how Jesus Montero will get every opportunity to catch?
///
Well, since Joe Girardi isn’t his manager, he is probably just being honest.
MTU January 23rd, 2012 at 6:16 pm
GF-
It’s pretty obvious they see it differently.
——-
At least that’s what they’re saying publicly.
Is Cash lying when he says he believes that Montero could be an every day MLB catcher? I freaking hope so.
YF-
I would prefer that but I’m having my doubts as to wether the Yankees do.
Rich, you’re killing me.
MTU, trade your young underdeveloped pitchers for someone else’s more developed ones? Interesting to see how this all plays out.
When will the Kuroda trade become official ?
Nope, seriously, in their eyes, Martin has made Montero expendable. Imagine that.
“When you sacrifice an impact bat and have vulnerabilities at 3B and SS due to injury/age concerns, respectively, and your 1B produced diminishing offense v. RHP over the last two seasons, to think that you have a surfeit of offense that can easily be filled by some fungible LH DH is to embark a slippery slope. Impact bats can only be replaced by impact bats, and they have no depth there.”
But as always, these arguments are their most effective in a vacuum, when your base standard of comparison is Yankees vs. Yankees.
But the Yankees were in a select group of 3 teams that outscored everyone else by well over 100 runs or more. The only other team within a 100 runs just lost their 2nd best hitter for this season.
The only other team close to 100 just said so long to Albert Pujols and is going to be reliant on Lance Berkman and Carlos Beltran to have big years.
By a macro standpoint, arguing the Yankees are not deep offensively is just a tough sale. Again, the argument works best in a vacuum, assuming that league-wide every team isn’t dealing with depth issues on all sides of the ball in some degree and in mostly in greater degree.
And/or, it requires micro-ization. That Brian Cashman lied because the Yankees indeed do are not deep in impact bats in their early 20s who also catch.
I’m fairly certain Cashman meant they’re deep in offense (and they are) and they are deep in catching, and genuinely meant what he said, and can say what he said in good conscious without being accused of something.
YF-
I think they might consider trading Hughes for a bat.
I know I’m in the minority but I still think he has something to offer as a SP and don’t particularly want him moved.
Perhaps if it was for someone very good.
No one is accusing Cashman of lacking good conscience; it is his judgment that is being questioned. Montero’s is not a fungible bat.
Again, I say: Carlos Lee for Burnett and the difference in their contracts. I’d throw in Houston’s preference between Warren/Mitchell/Phelps. And I’ll upgrade from a fruit basket to basket of mini-muffins.
Although it’s certainly not his fault, but a small part of me likes Russell Martin a little less due to the circumstances that provoked Cashman to trade Montero.
Just one of those things, I guess.
“No one is accusing Cashman of lacking good conscience;”
I disagree your view (which I accept as genuine) is a universal one.
Rich in NJ January 23rd, 2012 at 6:23 pm
YankeesWFAN Sweeny Murti
Montero revealed that A-Rod threatened to fine him $100/day last Sept because he wasn’t going to the cage enough. Went every day then.
__
It’s incredibly sad that A-Rod could have been used to help mold this kid into an offensive great, yet they sacrificed him because they think Martin, who has one of the worst approaches at the plate I have ever seen and has been fragile in his career, is thought to be a great find because, well you know, the pitchers say they love him, and that’s important even though pitchers didn’t love Posada, and he could go to the HoF.
///
B-b-b-b-b-b-ut just think of all the runs Martin will SAAAAAAVE!
“But as always, these arguments are their most effective in a vacuum, when your base standard of comparison is Yankees vs. Yankees.”
They are sui generis, don’t you think?
“But the Yankees were in a select group of 3 teams that outscored everyone else by well over 100 runs or more. The only other team within a 100 runs just lost their 2nd best hitter for this season.”
But they are undeniably susceptible to decline due to age-related concerns. Mike Jaggar/Keith Richards: “Time waits for no one, and it won’t wait for me” (or the Yankees).
“By a macro standpoint, arguing the Yankees are not deep offensively is just a tough sale. Again, the argument works best in a vacuum, assuming that league-wide every team isn’t dealing with depth issues on all sides of the ball in some degree and in mostly in greater degree.”
No it’s easy based on their age at key spots.
“And/or, it requires micro-ization. That Brian Cashman lied because the Yankees indeed do are not deep in impact bats in their early 20s who also catch.”
Lied? It must be hard to type with so much straw surrounding your keyboard. How about just freakin’ wrong?
“I’m fairly certain Cashman meant they’re deep in offense (and they are) and they are deep in catching, and genuinely meant what he said, and can say what he said in good conscious without being accused of something.”
Offensive catchers have historic impacts. The next one is at least three years away, which is an eternity in pro sports.
“Who, other than one regular here, is “ripping” Pineda?”
———–
when posters here act like it’s the end of the world that the Yankees traded Montero for Pineda, it’s an indirect “rip” of Pineda.
It’s like, you traded Montero for….. THAT?
if someone told Pineda that the LoHud bloggers are calling this “the biggest mistake of Cashman’s career” I imagine he might take it that way (not that he’d care.)
I’m not a huge fan of the trade. But just saying…
stuckey January 23rd, 2012 at 6:29 pm
And/or, it requires micro-ization. That Brian Cashman lied because the Yankees indeed do are not deep in impact bats in their early 20s who also catch.
I’m fairly certain Cashman meant they’re deep in offense (and they are) and they are deep in catching, and genuinely meant what he said, and can say what he said in good conscious without being accused of something.
———-
I don’t think the majority of us “anti-Montero trade” LoHudders are accusing Cashman of lying when he makes that statement.
It’s more like we believe he’s just DEAD WRONGregarding that assessment.
MTU, I don’t think Hughes right now would bring back a very good bat. He is worth more to us right now than he would be in a trade. I too would like to see us try to (gulp) develop him.
“every opportunity to catch” does not sound the same as “he’ll be our everyday catcher”
And why would a Montero need to have fire lit under him??
I have no agenda. Some players do need motivation. Surprised me that Montero was one who needed it. If for no other reason than to show off his power, I’m surprised a fire had to be lit to get him to spend more time in the cage.
I have no doubt he’s a talented player, but here on Lohud, man, it’s like he’s already played 20 years. People have lost all perspective.
Maybe the Yankees can trade Nunez, Nova and Adams to Seattle for Jesus Montero. Thoughts?
Around here, Cashman’s judgment is always superlative, until he’s fired, whenever that happens.
Then, of course, it will have been the right move all along
.
JAP-
Martin is likely just a placeholder until Romine and/or Sanchez replace him.
Yadier Molina is a FA soon too (if he makes it).
I don’t see Martin longterm.
“I don’t think the majority of us “anti-Montero trade” LoHudders are accusing Cashman of lying when he makes that statement.”
Fair enough.
Just understand I responded to someone who accused Cashman of contradicting himself.
Every kid at the age of 22 needs to grow up a bit. I don’t care if you are the next super prospect or a kid grilling burgers at McDonalds.
“when posters here act like it’s the end of the world that the Yankees traded Montero for Pineda, it’s an indirect “rip” of Pineda.”
No, it’s not BD. It’s merely an assertion that some viewed Montero as untouchable, except, at least to me, for an impact offensive bat like Kemp or Upton.
Nova, that is what vets do; they inspire kids. Montero loves and lives to hit. I don’t think there’s a problem there unless you are looking for one.
“Just understand I responded to someone who accused Cashman of contradicting himself.”
A contradiction is an inconsistency, not a lie. You’re a very sad man.
Just a reminder that what Cashman says in public is not necessarily what he actually believes, it can be what he wants other people (teams) to hear and believe.
I think it might just be Arod letting the kid know that elite hitters work everyday to stay that way.
“The fastball is great, they’re still missing it, but in July and August he needs to come with something better,” Mariners catcher Miguel Olivo said.”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c…..index.html
for the pollyannas concerning pineda,i would think it’s a little hard to ignore what his own catcher said.
as it was , he was right on too.
a lot of people are misunderstanding my position with pineda. i think its entirely possible that he’ll be an ace. i put that possibility at about 10%.
this 10% is based on the the 10% chance he has to develop a plus change.
it’s 50/50 he develops a decent change with the yankees .
when is the last time a young pitcher has added a decent change to his arsenal ?
it’s nice to hope, but at this point people are hoping pineda will develop a decent change.
that’s a very different thing than if they traded montero for pineda with an already decent change fully developed.
pineda is in a sense a fixer upper.
if the yankees fix him up .
they have a ace.
if they don’t they have a two pitch pitcher who is a three or four starter.
this isn’t that complicated.
right now pineda is 5.00 era guy with two pitches in yankee stadium.
at this point he has no way to attack lefties.
will that change?
that’s what we’re going to see.
BD, no I don’t think those two things coalesce. I think people have argued 1.) that pitchers are more fragile/higher risk than non pitchers (which is a fact), but somehow that becomes a diss of Pineda, and 2.) for a player of Montero’s caliber, you would want a pitcher to be a bonafide ace in the package, such as what the Yanks attempted to do in dealing with Lee. Not that I was on board with that deal. Or for an equal bat. Those two viewpoints have nothing to do with any negative view of Pineda who is an elite arm and hopefully will become an elite pitcher. I am mad excited to see him pitch, but that doesn’t mean I can’t express my dismay that a trade was made that took away a bat that was supremely special and that we will now have to find a way to replace for the present and future.
This was all about not having to pay Hamels or Cain. They couldn’t see the 20M Montero would have saved them per annum in his control years, they are aware of what Hamels, at least, has already turned down. Buying a pitching lottery ticket, thus, became more valuable than the jackpot they had already hit with Montero.
gf – sorry it’s taken me a bit to get back to you, but i just finished dinner.
i’m ok. on my own, mrs. joe took her almost 90-year old mom back home, so i’m on my own for dinner; grilled a steak (did you hear/read that, gb?), and had a large tossed salad – high protein and high fruits and vegetables is the order of the day for me.
hope you’re doing well.
i’m cautiously optimistic about pineda. i think montero is going to be a good player, but that bit about alex having to prod him makes me wonder about what’s in his head. he really has proven nothing at the major league level. while i think he’ll be a good hitter, we’ll see what kind of major leaguer he’ll be.
i stil think cash is working on getting a bat, likely for aj.
we’ll see.
“No one is accusing Cashman of lacking good conscience…”
That’s not true. It’s an extreme example, but one of the biggest critics of the trade on this site has said that it reveals defects in Cashman’s character.
This is also the person who predicts that Pineda will be in the bullpen in a few years or out of baseball altogether, so he’s sort of an outlier but he’s still a person here.
“But they are undeniably susceptible to decline due to age-related concerns.”
What ML team is not, in some facet or another?
EVERY ML team will fight a never-ending war against age and decline. Yes, the Yankees lead-off hitter and clean-up hitter happen to be of an advance age.
But the Yankees also have resources to combat this ever-present threat in ways MOST other ML teams do not.
Again, this whole argument that Cashman’s trade-off was so obviously misguided is dependent on a highly subjective conclusion that the trade off of speculative run scoring and speculative run prevention is completely inequitable, and I yet to see anyone attempt to provide data to support that assumption, or even attempt to do so.
I’m openminded to consider any such effort, btw.
“No it’s easy based on their age at key spots.”
What major league team doesn’t have age and/or lack of talent and/or lack of depth at key spots?
Who is this team you’re concerned about that has answers and plenty of them for every question, and/or no questions at all?
“Lied? It must be hard to type with so much straw surrounding your keyboard. How about just freakin’ wrong?”
You accused him of contradicting himself.
So which are you contending, that he did so purposely or Brian Cashman doesn’t understand what he did and said?
“Offensive catchers have historic impacts. The next one is at least three years away, which is an eternity in pro sports.”
5 weeks is an eternity in pro sports. Just ask the NY Giants.
But okay, as always, I’m willing to play on someone else’s terms for sport.
You’ve implied the three years before Gary Sanchez arrives could prove problematic for the NY yankees.
How so exactly?
You fear them not making the postseason?
Feat them being overmatched when they get there?
What exactly?
After the 2015 season,only arod,and cc are under contract,as of now,and they will be done very soon after that.
That is only 4 more seasons. Also,the team is not that old.
Jeter,and arod are the only age related players that you should be concerned about,and jeter has 3 seasons left,in wich his last season he might make only 8 million,so we are set up pretty nice in terms of long term,bad contracts.
The only bad one is arod,and maybe he suprises us,but you are not going to get the value in return that you paid him.
Also,we have a great farm system.
My question is,what do you do with cano,and granderson,as they approach 30 yrs old?
You can’t give them 7/140 million dollar contracts each.
The montero trade was a very risky one,but cashman knows that.
He traded from an area of strength,and gambled on maybe getting a cost controlled ace for a long time.
We don’t know what the yankees know about montero.
They might love his bat,but hate his defense.
I
“It’s an extreme example, but one of the biggest critics of the trade on this site has said that it reveals defects in Cashman’s character.”
it all depends on whether you consider being an ahole a character defect.
Also,montero is going to have a hell of a time hitting 30 hr as a catcher,if he catches.
The question i have about montero is.Is he going to hit 28 hr,or 38 hr.
Do you see him hitting 38 hr,when pujols hit 37 in 2011?
Rich/YankeeFem,
The point is, the Yanks do not get a pitcher of Pineda’s caliber without including Montero. The assertion that some keep making that the Yankees made a horrendous trade with regard to the return they got is ridiculous IMO.
Arguing that the trade was unnecessary is fine. Arguing that the Yanks didn’t get fair return seems off to me.
And then there are those that act like Cashman got fleeced, which I do believe is an indirect rip of Pineda.
“A contradiction is an inconsistency, not a lie. You’re a very sad man.”
Again, do you possess the ability to disagree with someone without resorting to demonization?
Without accusing them of evils homophobia to try to support you POV?
Are you capable?
pineda is in a sense a fixer upper.
if the yankees fix him up .
they have a ace.
——–
It’s the same with Montero. No doubt Montero’s got a good bat, but his real value is as a catcher. If you can get him in as a catcher, you’ve got some wild WAR on your hands. Without the catching, he’s still great but not as exciting.
Gotta tell you, as a Yankee fan still hearing Cashman throwing platitudes at Montero and comparing him to Cabrera/Piazza and saying they viewed him as a catcher after the trade isn’t doing much to make me feel better about what they did.
It’s almost like he’s covering for himself in the case he got this very wrong.
If he got this one that wrong he should not be in charge of personnel any longer.
You just don’t make this trade if you think Montero has Piazza’s bat and can equal him defensively unless you just traded him for for a 23 yo Pedro.
The only reason you do is you have a catcher as a manager who couldn’t hit and doesn’t want to see a beast with a bat behind the plate making defensive miscues.
I’m thrilled to have Pineda and don’t hold it against him that he was the guy we got for Montero. No Yankee fan should hold it against the kid.
I’m just not sold on the logic of giving up a Piazza bat when the offense wins softball games against bad pitching piling up stats and then when good RHP pitching shows up they crumble unless Cano bails them out.
I think adding Kuroda and keeping Montero or using their financial might to sign Darvish and keep Montero seemed to me to be a better way to address the pitching and the hitting issues the club had going forward.
Arguing that the Yanks didn’t get fair return seems off to me.
——–
I totally agree. Value for value, you can’t beat this trade. He made the Reds and the Nationals look like fools. He made the Danks asking price look foolish too.
Argue the strategy to your hearts content.
Joe,
That dinner sounds great! I can almost hear GB’s stomach growl within these walls.
I’m a high protein/high fiber kind of guy. That’s pretty much all I eat these days and I’m healthier and stronger than ever before. My docs still can’t believe it given where I came from two years ago.
Regarding Montero, call me biased but I wouldn’t have been concerned about the A-Rod tidbit. Perhaps the kid needs to grow up a bit (didn’t we all at that age?) or perhaps it was just A-Rod’s way of trying to take him under his wing and maximize the kid’s potential since he had commented in the past about how special he thought Montero’s bat was.
Who knows. I’m just sorry we’ll never see it happen in a Yankee uniform.
Cano needed to grow up a bit and he’s certainly done that. Montero can, too.
That said, I’m excited to see what Pineda can do as well. I don’t think he’s going to come roaring out of the gate and become the #2 pitcher they need right now, but I’m going to be patient with him just I would be with any other Yankee youngster.
My one real concern (besides the injury factor) is that the Yanks have not had the best track record with young arms in recent years. Maybe that assessment is unfair to them, but I think there’s some validity to it.
I just hope Pineda turns out to be what they expected because I believe Montero is going to be a star regardless where he plays.
“The point is, the Yanks do not get a pitcher of Pineda’s caliber without including Montero”
bd-
no one know which pitcher that pineda will be.
the one who masters a plus change
or the one who has a mediocre change.
if pineda gets a plus change he may be a #1
if he stays the way he is , he’s a #3or 4 starter.
his own catcher said the league would catch up to his fastball if he didn’t develop the change.
he was right. pineda had a 5.25 approx era the second half .
no one can know that cashman has traded for a pitcher who WILL learn a change.
that’s the question.
i and some others are saying why trade montero for a maybe.
as long as pineda doesn’t develop a plus change he’s a maybe.
“What ML team is not, in some facet or another?”
How many traded a Montero-type talent recently?
“EVERY ML team will fight a never-ending war against age and decline. Yes, the Yankees lead-off hitter and clean-up hitter happen to be of an advance age.”
Which is why you don’t trade a Montero-type talent.
“But the Yankees also have resources to combat this ever-present threat in ways MOST other ML teams do not.”
As jerkface has posted more than once, non-1B impact hitters under 27 are not being traded.
“Again, this whole argument that Cashman’s trade-off was so obviously misguided is dependent on a highly subjective conclusion that the trade off of speculative run scoring and speculative run prevention is completely inequitable, and I yet to see anyone attempt to provide data to support that assumption, or even attempt to do so.”
Based on the foregoing, it really isn’t.
“You accused him of contradicting himself.
So which are you contending, that he did so purposely or Brian Cashman doesn’t understand what he did and said?”
You have issues. He could merely be a result of misguided talent evaluation. You know, like thinking Martin is Munson.
“You’ve implied the three years before Gary Sanchez arrives could prove problematic for the NY yankees.
How so exactly?”
The further a prospect is from the majors, the larger the margin of error in terms of projecting what he will do in the ML. So many more things can wrong that will prevent Sanchez from becoming the player that we hope he can be.
In contrast, we have seen Montero produce at AA, AAA, and on the ML level.
What do you want Cashman to say?
“Boy we really screwed Seattle on this one. Most of our scouts think Jesus Montero is strictly a DH. He is a liability behind the plate. I see the Mariners are going to give him an opportunity to catch. pfffft. Good luck with that one. I feel great about this move because we really suckered Jack Z. High five.”
randy,
I understand that. I am not even a fan of the trade.
But the Yankees determined that they wanted to upgrade the rotation. They apparently liked Pineda.
The appropriate cost for Pineda is/was Montero.
They made the deal. Maybe it won’t work out, maybe it will. But the trade was fair value. That’s all.
“Again, do you possess the ability to disagree with someone without resorting to demonization?”
Stop projecting. You have repeatedly tried (vainly) to insult me. Then you distort the plain meaning of what I said, and are shocked when I call you on your intentional distortions.
“Without accusing them of evils homophobia to try to support you POV?
Are you capable?”
You aren’t fooling anyone.
nick and stuckey, going for blood….
“if pineda gets a plus change he may be a #1″
He doesn’t need a plus change to be a #1. He already has a plus fastball and slider. He needs a decent changeup to throw about 10 to 15% of his pitches. Furthermore, there are other pitches he can utilize like a cutter and split-finger.
Bret – I think Cashman being honest and saying they didn’t see Montero fitting in behind the plate would make me feel better. He could easily say they believed in his bat but didn’t know where to put him and wanted to keep DH open for older players instead of saying we think he’s Piazza and can catch. If Cashman thinks he’s Piazza and can catch, you don’t trade Piazza unless it’s for Pedro or Felix.
He has a changeup,and throws it 11% against lefties.Something like that.
It just isn’t very good..
But if the yankees & he is determined to force the issue,and make him learn,and master it,i think he will be fine.
Just because he doesn’t master it in 2012,does not mean he can’t in 2013 or 2014,just like the hope & faith we still have in hughes about adding another pitch.
Joe from Long Island January 23rd, 2012 at 7:13 pm
nick and stuckey, going for blood….
___
stuckey January 20th, 2012 at 6:34 pm
“I realize I am a hopeless fanboy”
No, it just means you are a baseball chubby chaser.
___
His own.
” But the trade was fair value.”
bd-
i think it would have been close to fair value if pineda already had a plus change up.
without a plus change, no way is it a fair trade.
do people not see the risk changes dramatically with the fact it depends on pineda learning a plus change?
Yankee Notes: Burnett, DH Options, trades
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....rades.html
yankeefeminista -
I’ve just “had it” with the all-knowing-ness of many of the posts here over the last 10 days.
Gee, Randy, you are quite magnanimous giving a kid a 10% chance of being able to learn and grow.
Look, I don’t think it’s unreasonable, necessarily, to be disappointed that Montero didn’t bring back a fully developed ace. But Montero ALONE was never going to do that; and given the hauls that were received for other pitchers this winter, Montero and Noesi was not going to be enough to get a fully developed ace.
I frankly don’t understand why being disappointed in the trade leads to such anger and venom directed against the entire Yankee organization. I really don’t.
Not only that, but all the griping and carping in the world won’t undo the trade. Tearing down Pineda before he even throws a pitch for the Yankees is mean. I don’t know how else to say it. It’s mean.
So Pineda isn’t even close to fair value. Hmm, I guess Cashman got screwed then.
“But if the yankees & he is determined to force the issue,and make him learn,and master it,i think he will be fine.
Just because he doesn’t master it in 2012,does not mean he can’t in 2013 or 2014,just like the hope & faith we still have in hughes about adding another pitch.”
ron-
i agree this is a religious trade with all this hope and faith.
it will likely take a lot of praying.
Maybe this trade works maybe not… I happen to like the move. I like Pineda. But if he bombs I’ll admit I was wrong…. The interesting thing is if the trade works and Pineda pitches awesome… Bloggers can not come on here in June and say “wow I love Pineda” he’s a stud”….don’t say anything but “wow I was wrong” or “back in January I hated this trade boy I was wrong.”
Joe, I made a New Year’s resolution to
be nicer to people on LoHud, even if it means ignoring ridiculous comments in the interest of better comitytake slightly less crap on here.“I think adding Kuroda and keeping Montero or using their financial might to sign Darvish and keep Montero seemed to me to be a better way to address the pitching and the hitting issues the club had going forward.”
I agree….but what if that’s what Cashman really wanted to do and Hal said no?
“What ML team is not, in some facet or another?”
“How many traded a Montero-type talent recently?”
You just can’t answer a direct question directly, can you?
“As jerkface has posted more than once, non-1B impact hitters under 27 are not being traded.”
I’m going to assume you somehow mean in a way that ignores Miquel Cabrera, Jose Bautista and Josh Hamilton, right?
Or is it a new rule?
“He could merely be a result of misguided talent evaluation. You know, like thinking Martin is Munson.”
You’re playing word games.
He said the Yankees MIGHT look for a bat, and that they traded from a position of strength.
You did Brian Cashman not understand that is a contradiction, or did he knowingly contradict himself.
Can you just answer simple question as opposed ratcheting up your increasingly defensive posturing?
“In contrast, we have seen Montero produce at AA, AAA, and on the ML level.”
Which strikes me as a relevant argument to anyone debating his merits as an offensive prospect.
Who’s doing that?
G. Love,
His whole purpose is to make Jack Z feel good about doing business, not the fans. The Yankees hyped Jesus Montero for a long time. If they really, truly believed in that hype (comparisons to Piazza and Cabrera) do you really think they would have sold him off?
MLBInsideNews Scott Swaim
#RedSox sign Cody Ross. 1 year 3M range
19 minutes ago
FWIW…who knows if it’s true….but if it is the Yankees are royally screwed because everyone knows that Cody Ross hits in the playoffs
My guess is that Cashman was told he couldn’t add significant long term payroll this winter ….which took Darvish out of play.
“So Pineda isn’t even close to fair value.”
not without a developed change.
crawdaddy-
i know it’s hard for you to imagine, but pitchers don’t just go to walmart and buy a new change.
developing a new pitch unless it comes natural is an unbelievable amount of work.
even with a huge effort , some pitchers never learn a pitch they are working on.
seriously, it’s probably 10-25% chance pineda develops a plus change.
the yankees have shown no ability to teach new pitches to young players and have the new pitch stick.
if pineda stays a two pitch pitcher he’s a three or four as long as he keeps his velocity.
if he gets the change down he
‘s a one or a two.
you don’t see the value of pineda is dependent on a variable?
the variable is the ability to develop the change.
by Dave Cameron – January 16, 2012
There are a lot of opinions out there about the deal over the weekend that shipped Michael Pineda and prospect Jose Campos to New York in exchange for Jesus Montero and Hector Noesi. A lot of people think the Yankees got a steal, while others point to the risks associated with young arms and argue that the Mariners might have done well to transfer some of that risk to a team that could more easily live with the consequences should Pineda’s arm blow up. However, if there’s a consensus on the deal, it seems to be this – how well this deal turns out for the Mariners is directly related to how many games Montero spends behind the plate.
Everyone thinks Montero is going to be a good hitter, maybe even a great one – though, I’d suggest that if Brian Cashman really thinks he’s Mike Piazza or Miguel Cabrera, as he stated over the weekend, then he simply shouldn’t have traded him – but Montero’s been evaluated as an elite prospect based on the premise that he might be able to catch in the big leagues. After all, the average catcher hit just .245/.313/.389 last year, so having a guy behind the plate who can provide real offensive value can be a significant advantage for a Major League club. As a catcher, Montero could be the best offensive player at his position. At DH, that’s a lot less likely.
gf – i’ve been working out, and on this style of eating, and i feel great, also. the secret of life, i guess……
i agree about montero and the trade. i think he’ll be a very good major league hitter. as for the prod, heck, every young guy needs a prod, lol……
i just hope pineda turns out as well as the yanks think he will. he certainly seems to have the tools, just needs to develop a bit more. and not get hurt…..
i’m really curious what cash is working on, but, unless it pans out, we’ll never know. still hoping it involves aj. he’s a good teammate, it seems, but, i just can’t stand it when he gets the ball. too much agita. a shame, ’cause he seems like a good guy.
And yet, 25 minutes later, only Swaim has the “scoop”. Right.
randy-
Even if Pineda can’t master the change can’t he pick the split as 3rd pitch ?
Wouldn’t that make him pretty devasting ?
Whadya think ?
Bret – I don’t think Cashman believes he just traded Piazza/Cabrera. I think he thinks he sold high on a prospect that had limitations.
I don’t know if he’s right, but I think that’s what he thinks.
As for making Jack Z feel good about making the trade that should be the least of his concerns after the Cliff Lee debacle 2 years ago.
He shouldn’t trash the player, but calling him Piazza/Cabrera after the deal isn’t helping fans of the team he runs get over it.
As for Hal shutting down the Darvish/Montero plan – you very well may be right, but we’ll never know unless Cashman gets canned one day and tells all.
“You just can’t answer a direct question directly, can you?”
I do it with tedious regularity.
“I’m going to assume you somehow mean in a way that ignores Miquel Cabrera, Jose Bautista and Josh Hamilton, right?”
Do you really believe the stuff you type?
Cabrera has essentially been a 1B for the Tigers. I said non-1B.
In Bautista’s last full season in Pitt his OPS+ at age 26 was 96. The season before that was 94. That’s not trading an impact bat.
Hamilton was traded because of his very serious off the field issues. So there was immense risk. But for the risk I suspect that he wouldn’t have been traded.
“You’re playing word games.”
Nope, I am merely stating a fact. I leave the word games to you.
“You did Brian Cashman not understand that is a contradiction, or did he knowingly contradict himself.”
I have no idea. That’s why I didn’t impute a motive.
“Which strikes me as a relevant argument to anyone debating his merits as an offensive prospect.
Who’s doing that?”
I thought we all were.
“Gee, Randy, you are quite magnanimous giving a kid a 10% chance of being able to learn and grow.”
have you ever tried to help teach a mlb pitcher a new pitch?
i have.
it doesn’t happen overnight.
how’s hughes change coming by the way?
or burnett’s?
think about it.
it’s not easy to teach a mlb pitcher a new pitch while a yankee.
it’s easier on some teams simply because they will allow the pitcher to get bombed for a while.
when have the yankees ever allowed a pitcher to learn on the fly while he was getting hammered?
it will not be easy for pineda to learn a change while pitching for the yankees.
“i know it’s hard for you to imagine, but pitchers don’t just go to walmart and buy a new change.”
Hell, you didn’t this pitcher existed until last week so stop acting like you know what he’s capable of.
As far as your comment about what Cashman is when questioning his character, it takes one to know one.
Joelsherman1
#Yankees DH plans: see if can swap Burnett for DH type or salary relief to find bat, explore trading a young starter (Hughes?) for a (cont)
young, controllable bat. Last option: Turn to bat on market such as Damon, Matsui, etc
Joel Sherman
“As for Hal shutting down the Darvish/Montero plan – you very well may be right, but we’ll never know unless Cashman gets canned one day and tells all.”
Cashman: The Yankee Years….with Tom Verducci?
What sherman tweets sounds appropriate for the DH search. The return would have to be pretty good for me to trade Hughes though and I don’t know who would be out there for him…..
Well, this is one Yankee fan looking forward to seeing Pineda pitch in a Yankee uniform and I can’t wait until next month when spring training starts for the Yankees.
Question:
How bad do you think the Yankees now want to hold onto Betances now that they have acquired Pineda ?
Is he more available than before ?
TIA.
Craw,
you made a nice point above, and I wish more pitchers would use the split as their change, if a circle or other change isn’t working for them.
mtu-
yes,i would think the split finger fastball would be a logical pitch to have him try.
if the change doesn’t work, you would think the splitter would be the next pitch to try.
what he’s looking for though is a pitch that he can use against lefties. he would need a splitter that was effective against them.
MTU,
I would guess he’s available in the right deal….would have to be a pretty good bat coming back id guess though.
Actually me too, Craw. It will be baseball, the threat of snow will largely be gone, and oh yeah, did I say it will be baseball.
the market price for Garza, Latos, Gio, etc was a package larger than ‘just’ Montero.
so it’s easy to argue that it was a bad trade. but IMO it’s hard to argue that it wasn’t a fair trade.
If someone else likes Latos or Gio better than Pineda, fine. But the appropriate price for a 22 yr old pitcher who hits upper 90s and a plus slider with location is Montero.
Maybe the Yanks will lose on this deal, maybe they didn’t need to make the deal or it didn’t make sense given other circumstances… but I don’t think they overpaid.
Craw-
You can count me as a 2nd one.
And by the way, unlike some, I am not expecting miracles from him at this time.
Just some progress towards his cieling.
He’s young.
BD
If you think it was a mistake to trade Montero for a pitcher, it’s a bad trade. That doesn’t mean that people who share my view won’t be proved wrong (I hope we, or at least I, will be), but it’s a philosophical difference based on roster construction preferences.
I think Montero was the biggest piece that was traded this offseason.
Montero was always their best trade bait. The next tier of trade bait is Phil Hughes, Dellin Betances, Eduardo Nunez. They can round out packages with guys like Warren, Heathcott, Murphy and Joseph.
MTU
if he can’t help us right away, it really was a dumb trade.
Randy-
Do you think he has the arm slot for a sinker or related ?
That has good arm side fade against lefties and might also increase his GB rate.
I see options for young Mr. Pineda. Not a big fan of the CC myself because it can be so dificult to master.
Kid has a good pitching coach and by all accounts a good work ethic.
Perhaps you are a bit too pessimistic ?
Blake-
thanks. just wondering.
Swish is now prime trade bait as well.
Rich in NJ,
I think the Yankees should have signed Kuroda and kept Montero.
I don’t think they needed to make the trade. But I also think they got a good return for Montero. I just don’t think it was necessary given their depth in the minors.
I’m not going to blame Cashman for trying to improve the rotation though. I remember how many on here wanted Cashman fired when Cliff Lee signed elsewhere. This offseason he upgraded the rotation and I think the Yankees could have one of the best rotations in baseball for some time.
I’m not exactly upset about that. The cost was steep… but I’m willing to wait and see how it goes.
Basically it boils down to Cashman’s statement that they dealt from an area of strength….if you agree win him there then you probably liked the trade…..if you disagree then you probably didn’t.
The Yankees are deep at catcher……they are very thin at impact bat and Montero was potentially both of those things.
Its done with now….so im going to.focus on Pineda and how excited I am to have him
“Hell, you didn’t this pitcher existed until last week so stop acting like you know what he’s capable of.”
the difference between you and me is i’m a doer and you’re a watcher.
i know what an all star pitchers 95mph+ fast ball feels like and you don’t.
so when i say something about pitchers, i’m saying it from experience.
do i know what pinada’s potential is?
no. i’m not God, but from experience i am not impressed with a two pitch pitcher as far as being an ace no matter how hard he throws .
pineda, as is, would probably make a hell of a replacement for mariano, but that’s another story.
2nd tier of trade bait after Montero
Nick Swisher
Phil Hughes
Dellin Betances
Eduardo Nunez
3rd tier
Adam Warren
Slade Heathcott
JR Murphy
Corban Joseph
I think Hughes has great arm action and slot for a split…..MTU and I have been talking about that since last year……he needs something to get swings and misses with consistently…..
I hear you, BD. Especially after Kuroda, I viewed pitching as a strength. I now fear that their excess starting pitching could end Hughes’ Yankee career as a starter, and if young starting pitching is as important as Cashman says it is, that would be counterproductive.
As for this:
“I’m not going to blame Cashman for trying to improve the rotation though. I remember how many on here wanted Cashman fired when Cliff Lee signed elsewhere.”
I thought Jack Z. saved Cashman’s butt. Turned out it was only temporary.
Bret
Serious question: Why are you so trade-centric?
Targets:
Billy Butler
Shin Soo Choo
Jayson Heyward
Logan Morrison
Chase Headley
Dominic Brown
As always, Bret clearly has the pulse of the front office. LOL.
Phil-
Help is a relative term.
I think he can help right away just not necessarily to the tune of his cieling.
Do I believe he can win between 10 and 15 games ? Absolutely.
I just mean I don’t expect him to flat out consistently dominate at this point in time.
Still very much on the learning curve. What he has now, with the way he commands it, should yield pretty good results depending on your expectations.
I gave you mine above.
If he gets a CC or a split down this season or by next his projection is even better IMO.
That’s my take. Until he proves me wrong (hope he doesn’t) that’s where I’m at on him.
I hope he stays healthy first and foremost.
So no it’s not a dumb trade by your defintion IMO.
Rich in NJ,
I am a perfectionist and trades intend to immediately remedy inefficiencies.
g.love – i appreciate what you’re saying/thinking about cash making fans feel better. but, i truly don’t think he’s interested in that. his interest is making his trade partners feel he’s dealing in good faith, and in this case it means making jack z. feel that cash gave up a lot for what he got. in reality, cash must feel that he got back at least as good as he gave.
i think cash’s comments are primarily directed to other gms, agents, and players; people in the industry. not fans.
“Do you think he has the arm slot for a sinker or related ?”
mtu-
i can’t tell by looking with my eyes at something like arm slot. that’s past my ability. i’d have to see a lot of video.
pineda is very raw. he must be repeating his delivery well to have such good control so that’s the good news.
at this point because he doesn’t seem to have any pitch that runs away from lefties, you have to wonder why. maybe it’s the arm slot. i don’t know though.
Cody Ross Decision Expected Today
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [January 23 at 6:56pm CST]
6:56pm: The Red Sox have “made some progress” with Ross, a team source tells Pete Abraham of the Boston Globe (Twitter link)
mlbtr
Bret is a perfectionist but firmly believes Melky Cabrera is a clear long term upgrade over Swisher in RF. LOL.
“i think cash’s comments are primarily directed to other gms, agents, and players; people in the industry. not fans.”
I agree….
At this point I’d say Swish is off the table. Also this is his walk year. If he could chill out come Oct. he might even earn himself a looksie from a certain NY club come next winter.
Franco didn’t watch baseball last year.
Hopefully the Mets
“Billy Butler
Shin Soo Choo
Jayson Heyward
Logan Morrison
Chase Headley
Dominic Brown”
I think Heyward is a pipe dream….the Braves would ask a ton….the marlins would probably ask a ton for LoMo as well. Choo, Butler, or Brown are the most interesting names to me on that list…..Choo would be the best fit but both he and Butler might cost more than Cashman would give…..Brown would be an interesting buy low candidate if the Phillies would actually sell low on him….his swing was a mess last year but he’s very talented and only 23.
or trade AJ for salary relief and roll the dice on Cespedes for just money….
Thanks Randy.
Just wondering about the easiest ways to help Pineda achieve his cieling which what we all want.
Where’s neil Allen when you need him, or Dave Duncan ?
I hope Rothschild can increase Pineda’s effectiveness even further.
I’d feel a little more positive about that if Hughes had mastered the pitch under Mr. R’s guidance.
Each young pitcher IS different and responds to tutoring differently so I hope a way to accomplish the goal is found.
Many ways to skin a cat.
Other targets:
Cameron Maybin
Alex Gordon
Blake,
The team that needs Swisher the most is your Braves. I’d be curious to see what they’d fork over for him. Plus they like Nunez. They really need a ton of instant offense with their pitching. There’s a good match with the Braves.
As far as Phil Hughes – there must be offers out there but I have no idea what team would covet him the most.
Maybe the Royals?
Bret The Hitman January 23rd, 2012 at 8:01 pm
Franco didn’t watch baseball last year.
———-
You’ve obviously not watched baseball the last THREE years.
The comparative offensive production between Melky and Swisher isn’t even close (and no, it doesn’t favor Melky).
Don’t care that Melky had one good season last year. He needs to do it again.
Philley needs an outfielder, too and seem to be in no hurry in bringing Brown for another shot at right field any time soon. Why would the Yankees be?
Would Cashman really trade a Piazza/Cabrera bat ? I think not.
Will Montero be that bat? The jury is out.
Why would he say that?
To pump up Pineda?
When did he last say something he meant other than he didn’t want Soriano?
Maybe he is setting Montero up for when he reaches free agency.
Hi everyone,
Just one question…..Cashman is saying they are looking to the trade market to get a bat…..Do you think either Betances or Banuelos might be in play to get the bat?. If they are, doesn’t the trade of Montero looks even worse?.
TRADE CANDIDATES
Nick Swisher
Phil Hughes
Dellin Betances
Eduardo Nunez
Adam Warren
Slade Heathcott
JR Murphy
Corban Joseph
TRADE TARGETS
Billy Butler
Shin Soo Choo
Jayson Heyward
Logan Morrison
Chase Headley
Dominic Brown
Cameron Maybin
Alex Gordon
watching mlb hot stove….it just hit me that where prince signs may determine whether cash can make a trade for the dh – like if prince signs with wash, then laroche becomes available.
still lots of moving pieces out there. and, it’s still a few days till st…..27, is it?
I read lohud every day. I comment very little.
Hard to believe some of the dialogues going on here the last 10 days or so about Pineda and Montero. Splitting hairs, parsing words, etc.
Personally, I love Montero’s bat. But he’s a Mariner now. Pineda’s a young talented arm, Rothschild’s a decent PC, let’s see what he and Girardi can do with him.
I THINK it was GB who once said here … I root for the uniform, not the player (talking about ARod, maybe?).
Ditto.
Randy’s entitled to his opinion. But I’ll be rooting for Pineda to be a sensation in pinstripes, if it’s all the same to some of you fellas.
Bret-
Royals do not need Hughes. They have Mazzaro, Hocevar, O’Sullivan, and I think Crow.
Is Hughes an upgrade on them at this point ? Don’t think so.
JMO
It depends who they get back, Luis.
“Philley needs an outfielder, too and seem to be in no hurry in bringing Brown for another shot at right field any time soon. Why would the Yankees be?”
Id like to get him to be a KLong project and maybe future outfielder…..which means I wouldn’t pay a ton for him.
MTU,
Hi!, hope that everything is fine with your loved ones.
thanks Rich
bret, i’d stay away form almost everyone on your list.
i don’t trust choo (just a feeling), brown has a gaping hole in his swing, maybin hasn’t done it in too many years, and gordon has done it just one, after trying and failing for a bunch.
i’d take butler in a minute.
“.Do you think either Betances or Banuelos might be in play to get the bat?. If they are, doesn’t the trade of Montero looks even worse?.”
Hi Luis….potentially I think. It depends on who the bat is of course.
Joe From LI,
LaRoch’s contract isn’t uglyat 8 mil for one year and a 10 mi; one year team option, but, more than what Cashman will pay. However, not many people will gamble on that with a labrum surgery survivor. If the Nats take back Burnett and money (20 mil) that make him a 6 mil a year pitcher for Washington. Would NYYs ask for a mid level prospect along with LaRoche? So many questions and so few answers from the experts.
Hi luis-
Thanks for the well wishes. We are watching, waiting, and hoping.
How are things in Chavezland ?
“the difference between you and me is i’m a doer and you’re a watcher.
i know what an all star pitchers 95mph+ fast ball feels like and you don’t.
so when i say something about pitchers, i’m saying it from experience.”
I don’t know why you use this line of argument. You do have experience which gives you a perspective, for better and for worse, that none of the rest of us regular commenters has.
But that kind of claim to authority doesn’t look as good here when there are a number of people with more baseball expertise in general and a lot more knowledge of the players involved in this trade in particular who have graded the Yankees the winner of this trade.
Are they right? We can’t say, but they’re experts so we watchers should listen to them.
MTU,
I am in Canada, but as far as I know, the same.
thanks Blake, for me is a nightmarish scenario, hope it become reality.
How can anyone be sure of a trade until years after the fact?
It’s all relative.
Pineda for Montero could be a wash but Campos could develop into a stud.
As Randy said, Pineda could be the successor to Mo.
Is that a bad thing?
“thanks Blake, for me is a nightmarish scenario, hope it become reality.”
yea…I didn’t like the trade….however if Cashman figured out a way to trade for Jason Heyward or Andrew McCutchen or something like that then I’d find a way to forgive him I think. I’m not expecting that of course but we just have to see how all this plays out……
Are they right? We can’t say, but they’re experts so we watchers should listen to them.
=======================
It depends on the definition of “expert.”
luis-
What are you doing up there ?
Hace mucho frio en Canada, no ?
Nick,
I think only time will tell who the real winners or losers on this trade were. IMHO, it depends on how Montero performes from here on out which I think is far more easily predictable, and if the gamble that Cash pays off and Pineda developes a change up a becomes an ace.
Reds Notes: Oswalt, Theriot, Bench Help, Dusty
By Mark Polishuk [January 23 at 7:21pm CST]
Here’s the latest on the Reds, from John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer…
Roy Oswalt’s representatives contacted the Reds, according to Walt Jocketty, though the GM doesn’t “think it’s something we’d able to do. We’re pretty tapped out (as far as payroll).” Jocketty said that to sign Oswalt, the Reds would have to be “very creative” and probably make another move to create payroll space. The club was able to sign Ryan Madson earlier this month since some money had already been set aside to pursue Francisco Cordero. Johnny Cueto, Mat Latos, Mike Leake, Homer Bailey and Bronson Arroyo project as Cincinnati’s current rotation.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com
My guess is that Oswalt would really prefer to stay in the NL….if he’s trying to re-establish value that only makes sense and Fenway makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
EDIT: Hope it doesn’t become a reality
Did I just hear that Jorge led the league in hitting as a catcher 5 times in his career?
In this context, expert = someone who played major league baseball professionally.
MTU,
LOL!, anything below 70 degrees is cold for me!, but last week was particularly cold 0 degrees as the high for the day. I was in risk management course and took a few days off to go skiing in Whistler.
luis, I wasn’t really commenting on the merits of the trade itself.
Doers and watchers invited
Many of the “experts” are talking heads, some of them being ex-players. Most of them agree the trade was good for the Yanks.
Unless Montero has a future as strictly a DH, most catchers do not hit as a player in a less stressful position barring players like Piazza, Bench, Yogi and Fisk and Pudge in his prime.
This is probably what Cash was thinking.
Have a good time Luis. Stay warm.
I’m out. Have a good night.
“Cabrera has essentially been a 1B for the Tigers. I said non-1B.”
Fair enough. Not sure I understand the limitation given Montero likely projects as a primary DH, but so be it.
“In Bautista’s last full season in Pitt his OPS+ at age 26 was 96. The season before that was 94. That’s not trading an impact bat.”
And that’s relevant how. My overall point is now and always have been anyone assuming they know exactly what the make-up of the Yankees roster and the trade and FA market years down the road is fooling themselves and annoying others.
Bats develop. Bats surprise. Players you imagine are XXX for life are made available.
“Hamilton was traded because of his very serious off the field issues. So there was immense risk. But for the risk I suspect that he wouldn’t have been traded.”
But again, to assume the market WILL be DRY runs a risk as well. It’s basing a strategy on a fallacy, that everything is going to go exactly as you expect it. Its ignores the unforeseeable is in fact, the norm.
I believe it was you who a few days ago retorted to me “who could have seen Jeter’s July resurgence.”
As if criticizing those who wrote him off (BEFORE the resurgence, btw, not in hindsight) wasn’t valid.
Unpredictability is the control, not the exception. I can stand here with absolutely certainty saying that there will be players on the Yankees roster we can’t predict producing in ways we can’t predict in 2014-2015.
You don’t like the trade, I don’t have a problem with this. Its the level of conviction (which by rule leads to extremism) that I take issue with.
“I have no idea. That’s why I didn’t impute a motive.”
You have no idea? You can’t speculate? You seem to have made some very rash assumptions about Brian Cashman of late, including (but not limited to) asserting he doesn’t value offense in the middle of the diamond, because of one trade. You argued for hours that was a reasonable conclusion about him.
So you’re NOW unable to speculate as to whether Brian Cashman intentionally contradicted himself or didn’t understand he did?
Convenient for you.
“I thought we all were.”
Not that I aware. Perhaps this is the root of your problem.
I’m not aware of much debate about the pedigree of Montero’s bat. You apparently don’t seem to understand believing in Montero’s bat and not being enraged over the trade are not mutually exclusive.
Wow, much of the last few days suddenly make more sense.
“Fair enough. Not sure I understand the limitation given Montero likely projects as a primary DH, but so be it.”
Cashman keeps saying otherwise. Are you calling him a liar?. /sarcasm
“And that’s relevant how. My overall point is now and always have been anyone assuming they know exactly what the make-up of the Yankees roster and the trade and FA market years down the road is fooling themselves and annoying others.”
Because Bautista wasn’t traded as an impact bat. What he became wasn’t foreseeable.
“Bats develop. Bats surprise. Players you imagine are XXX for life are made available.”
I have never read nor heard anyone even remotely suggest that Batista could become what he became after being league average or worse at 26.
“But again, to assume the market WILL be DRY runs a risk as well. It’s basing a strategy on a fallacy, that everything is going to go exactly as you expect it. Its ignores the unforeseeable is in fact, the norm.”
He has had major issues since before he was drafted. Again, the explicit premise is being able to trade for an established impact bat under 27 who doesn’t play 1B. The implicit premise is that it isn’t a psychological reclamation project.
“You have no idea? You can’t speculate? You seem to have made some very rash assumptions about Brian Cashman of late, including (but not limited to) asserting he doesn’t value offense in the middle of the diamond, because of one trade. You argued for hours that was a reasonable conclusion about him.”
Rash is your word. It’s not fact-based. It is because you only get a handful of those decisions in a 15 year period. So it’s a one-off thing.
“Convenient for you.”
Not if reasonableness is the test.
“Not that I aware. Perhaps this is the root of your problem.”
My problem is continuing this discussion well beyond the point of tedium.
“I’m not aware of much debate about the pedigree of Montero’s bat. You apparently don’t seem to understand believing in Montero’s bat and not being enraged over the trade are not mutually exclusive.”
It has always been about roster depth and construction.
“Wow, much of the last few days suddenly make more sense.”
Wow. Just. Wow.
“I don’t know why you use this line of argument.”
nick in sf-
i’m not going to apologize for getting off my couch and getting my hands dirty in the game.
too many people just watch life go by. i prefer learning things by doing them.
you pick up things when you pay your dues.
i don’t think most people really understand what it looks like when a 95+ pitch is coming at you. i don’t think they understand how hard it is for a pitcher to change anything. when you are working with a player on learning something new, it’s usually months of daily workouts to get even modest results.
this learning that people think pineda will experience is not going to come easy. he’s going to have to really work hard at it and it’s going to take time.
do the yankees have any history of patience with young pitchers. i don’t see it. i see the rays showing patience. the yankees? not really.
i have nothing against pineda. he seems like a nice kid. probably the worst thing for his development is coming to the yankees . his development will likely be frozen where it is now. just like what’s happened with hughes and joba.
The Yankees have 6 starters, but only one is a lefty. Why don’t they make a trade for Minnesota’s Francisco Liriano? He should not be that expensive and he is still only 28. Why not explore a trade by offering Phil Hughes? I know the Yankees need a dh, but I think that they should sign one of those free agents available like Johnny Damon or Raul Ibanez (he is old but might benefit from Yankee Stadium’s short porch) to a 1 year contract.