Notes on a trade: Cashman, Montero and Zduriencik
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 23, 2012 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
In separate conference calls, Yankees general manager Brian Cashman and Mariners general manager Jack Zduriencik told basically the same story of how the Jesus Montero for Michael Pineda trade came about.
It started early last month at the Winter Meetings in Dallas. The Mariners had nearly traded for Montero a year and a half earlier, and Zduriencik wanted to revisit the possibility.
“We had a brief conversation,” Cashman said. “Jack had mentioned to me, if there was anybody other than Felix Hernandez that you would consider in a Montero discussion. I said, ‘Really, one guy.’ And then we kind of focused from there… (I said) but I’m not sure if I would even do that, and he said he wasn’t sure if he would do it, and so we just kind of talked through it a long period of time.
“… We agreed a little bit on the principles, but he told me he needed more for Michael, and I felt that (if I gave up) too much more, I needed something back, so that’s how the various other players got in play.”
Zduriencik said he didn’t exactly make Pineda available, he really went in pursuit of a player he wanted and found out that Pineda would be the cost.
“We identified some young players throughout baseball,” Zduriencik said. “But at the end we settled on Jesus… We had a need, and we are trying to address that need. To get really good players, you have to give up really good players. Neither one of us were trying to walk away from this thinking, I got the upper hand.”
Some other notes from today’s conference calls with the Yankees and Mariners.
• Over on the right, that’s what Pineda looks like in a Yankees hat.
• Big words from Cashman on what it felt like to trade Montero: “There have been only two moves I was willing to this for, and it happened to be with the same organization with Seattle. It’s hard. It’s very hard. He may very well be the best player I’ve ever traded.”
• Cashman on concerns about Pineda’s second half: “I more asked about how they used him at the very end, and the answers that came back made sense. Obviously given the fact that we’ve been a part of limiting somebody’s innings as well, or limiting our players innings and making sure they’re protected and things of that nature. His first-half and second-half numbers are a little deceiving. I took comfort in the fact that his strikeouts-per-nine in the first half of last year were 9.0, but they went up in the second half to 9.3. His walks-per-nine were 2.8 in the first half and 2.9 in the second half, so they were relatively the same.”
• Cashman refused to speculate on who would round out his rotation next season, but he dismissed the notion that Phil Hughes — because of his past bullpen success — is an obvious candidate to be bumped out of the rotation. “I think he’s a starter,” Cashman said. “I know he can pitch out of the pen, but I don’t look at him as a reliever. Never have. I know with any quality arm, whether it’s CC or A.J. or Nova or Hughes or now Pineda, you can run them out there into the pen and they’d look pretty special. But it’s not something you want to do.”
• Cashman said he was “not at all” hesitant to deal with Seattle after the previous failed attempt to make a Montero trade with the Mariners.
• Cashman also said this trade was “need for need” rather than any sort of Yankees organizational philosophy about valuing pitching ahead of hitting.
• Montero said he was “shocked” by the trade because he was convinced the Yankees were about give him his shot in the big leagues, but he also had previous prepared himself to play in Seattle, so the transition was fairly easy. He said his family is happy about the trade because they view it as a new opportunity.
• Asked about being a catcher, Montero said, “That’s why I’m here.” Zduriencik said Montero will get “every opportunity” to become the team’s everyday catcher.
• Zduriencik also made it clear that he expects to have Noesi in the big leagues this season.
• Finally, Montero gave Alex Rodriguez a lot of credit for his improvement as a hitter. Montero said that, when Rodriguez found out he wasn’t going to the cage every day, Rodriguez said he would fine Montero $100 for every day he didn’t do extra cage work. Montero started going every day.
Associated Press photos
Seattle article on same pressers: http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....l_get.html
# mick January 23rd, 2012 at 8:42 pm
Many of the “experts” are talking heads, some of them being ex-players. Most of them agree the trade was good for the Yanks.
Unless Montero has a future as strictly a DH, most catchers do not hit as a player in a less stressful position barring players like Piazza, Bench, Yogi and Fisk and Pudge in his prime.
This is probably what Cash was thinking.
MLBInsideNews Scott Swaim
What do you know. @Ken_Rosenthal gets the news now. Sox signing Ross
1 minute ago
Scott Swaim
MLBInsideNews Scott Swaim
Boras does it again. Prince gets 165-170M from #Nationals.
2 minutes ago
incarcerated bob’s brother?
blake January 23rd, 2012 at 8:48 pm
MLBInsideNews Scott Swaim
What do you know. @Ken_Rosenthal gets the news now. Sox signing Ross
1 minute ago
Scott Swaim
MLBInsideNews Scott Swaim
Boras does it again. Prince gets 165-170M from #Nationals.
2 minutes ago
incarcerated bob’s brother?
————————-
Nationals are building a very good team going forward
luis,
that very well could be false news….no clue.
why is this not on google?
i just hope that the posters in this blog micro analyze everything with pineda and give him a fair shot and time to develop as a pitcher. this isn’t about who’s right and who’s wrong. it’s a baseball trade and we want our guys to do well. if those that are so attached to montero that they can’t accept pineda as one of their own, then i hope this blog puts in an ignore feature.
JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman
Cody ross going to #redsox, as @ken_rosenthal reported.
2 minutes ago
of course he was right on this
http://tinyurl.com/89u2wfk
Felix is home enjoying his final days of freedom, so to speak, before spring training. When I reached him in Venezuela he had the same excitement in his voice that he had after wins last year.
“Just relaxing at home with the family,” he said as his children could be heard shouting and laughing in the background.
He had heard about the trade, of course, and said that despite the fact that Jesus Montero grew up in a neighboring city he did not really know him. As for the prospect of adding an impact bat to the lineup, he simply answered, “That would be good.”
Felix was not concerned about the starting rotation taking a hit by losing Michael Pineda. He said he believes in what remains.
“Why would the pitching be weaker?” he asked. “Same guys, just no Pineda. It is still good.”
He also brought up the addition of Kevin Millwood, something he said he would be a positive.
While he has been watching what the Mariners have been doing this offseason, one thing he was not concerned about was the possibility of getting traded himself.
“Not at all,” he said. “They know I want to stay. I wasn’t worried.”
That would clearly put Boston over the top as the best team ever assembled.
if true, it puts laroche into play.
http://tinyurl.com/8yhkbxr
For his part Montero said he was happy to be in Seattle and excited about the opportunity before him. He has been here before as he was with the Yankees when they made their late trip to Safeco Field last year. While he was here he took a careful look around. He had a feeling he could be back and not necessarily in pinstripes.
“I was thinking about a lot last year (while at Safeco Field) because a lot of times Seattle tried to get me in trades and all that. I might play here for a long time then that is what happened this year now,” he said.
….In a way it sounds like Montero knew he would end up here. He said the team is hardly unknown, especially in his country Venezuela.
“Now they know more about Seattle because Felix is on the team, now I am on the team, Franklin Gutierrez too. People know a lot about Seattle. Now it’s going to be better because we are going to win.”
what do you think it would take to get Laroche?
“That would clearly put Boston over the top as the best team ever assembled.”
yea he killed it in the playoffs that one time….
“I’m feeling great and I’m beyond excited. I never thought I would become a New York Yankee so early into my career. This is the best thing in the world. Pitching alongside CC Sabathia, I’m speechless. And playing alongside players such as Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter is unbelievable.”
——————————
Ok…. I kinda like him…
“This is probably what Cash was thinking.”
I doubt it. Montero will hit and probably won’t catch more than 80 games a year, which would have made him an ideal compliment to Martin, and subsequently, Romine.
If the you believe that the Yankee want to get under the $189m threshold, this trade was primarily about not having to spend big bucks on another starter.
Hopefully, Montero takes the catching spot and runs with it and doesn’t take this as meaning he wasn’t wanted. If Seatlle ever hopes to attract good hitters, moving in the fences need to be in play.
“If the you believe that the Yankee want to get under the $189m threshold, this trade was primarily about not having to spend big bucks on another starter.”
or so they hope
Cody Ross is worse than Reddick…so still a downgrade
Cody Ross < Reddick
Bailey < Papelbon
Aviles/Punto < Scutero
I can’t wait to hear what fake Peter Gammons has to say about that Sox acquisition..
Hey Sawx:
You got Cody Ross. Still enough left over for Oswalt?
I’m starting to think Oswalt may stay in the NL….I wouldn’t want any part of Fenway or the AL east if I were him and trying to get my worth back up.
a trade for a young OF allows us to put swisher at the dh spot. i don’t think cashman is interested in moving gardner since he’s so cost effective.
with all that said, i hope we don’t move hughes but if it yields a nice young long term OF’er , then it’s all good…
Jon Heyman @JonHeymanCBS
Ross a good fit for #redsox. If get SP and SS, they’ll be set. Front office doing nice job after owner spent all the $ on liverpool
___
True. All they need now is a 4 and 5 starter, a short stop, a back up IF, back up OF and one or two more guys in the pen….
If the Ross deal becomes final, it’s at about $3 mil and incentives. They aren’t getting a hometown discount for Oswalt.
What’s the latest on a dh? Trading Hughes or trading Burnett for another bad contract?
@StoneLarry: This is kind of mind-blowing: Danny Hultzen and Jesus Montero — the M’s exalted battery of the future — were each born on Nov. 28, 1989
*********
Mind blowing indeed, Larry…one year younger(almost to the day) than my middle child.
Either the M’s are getting younger or I’m getting older
Trader, not a word. It’s quiet, so, we’re in for a storm.
GB-
Safeco was #13 out of all stadiums on rate of homers hit/game. I was surprised. #1 was Arlington.
jcrasnick Jerry Crasnick
by MLBInsideNews
Cody Ross’ deal with the #RedSox is for $3M base salary plus bonuses based on plate appearances.
13 minutes ago
GreenBeret7 says:
January 23, 2012 at 9:05 pm
Hopefully, Montero takes the catching spot and runs with it and doesn’t take this as meaning he wasn’t wanted. If Seatlle ever hopes to attract good hitters, moving in the fences need to be in play.
============
This is a forever topic, GB.
Catch 22 if you ask me. If the fences are moved in, then you can’t attract pitchers…
Jack Z is pretty dense or glad to be rid of Pineda. Wanted to revisit the trade? Coulda had Pineda AND Montero.
Oh, wells.
Cashman should have made them take AJ instead of Noesi
AJ for Ichiro
Texas, among others are after lefty reliever, Nyota Uhura, who came over from Baltimore in a late season trade. She may look good in a uniform. but, will she still have that devastating curve affect or will she change up the look?
“I don’t know why you use this line of argument.”
nick in sf-
i’m not going to apologize for getting off my couch and getting my hands dirty in the game.
too many people just watch life go by. i prefer learning things by doing them.
you pick up things when you pay your dues.
i don’t think most people really understand what it looks like when a 95+ pitch is coming at you. i don’t think they understand how hard it is for a pitcher to change anything. when you are working with a player on learning something new, it’s usually months of daily workouts to get even modest results.
this learning that people think pineda will experience is not going to come easy. he’s going to have to really work hard at it and it’s going to take time.
do the yankees have any history of patience with young pitchers. i don’t see it. i see the rays showing patience. the yankees? not really.
i have nothing against pineda. he seems like a nice kid. probably the worst thing for his development is coming to the yankees . his development will likely be frozen where it is now. just like what’s happened with hughes and joba.
CompassRosy January 23rd, 2012 at 9:25 pm
GreenBeret7 says:
January 23, 2012 at 9:05 pm
Hopefully, Montero takes the catching spot and runs with it and doesn’t take this as meaning he wasn’t wanted. If Seatlle ever hopes to attract good hitters, moving in the fences need to be in play.
============
This is a forever topic, GB.
Catch 22 if you ask me. If the fences are moved in, then you can’t attract pitchers…
————————————————————————————————————————-
The ball doesn’t seem to carry well there, so it would sort of be a neutral park.
Pretty sure if people had the talent and opportunity to get “their hands dirty”, they would.
Don’t understand the disdain you have for those who didn’t play. Because besides you and Pat M., nobody else here has ever played pro ball.
m January 23rd, 2012 at 9:39 pm
Pretty sure if people had the talent and opportunity to get “their hands dirty”, they would.
Don’t understand the disdain you have for those who didn’t play. Because besides you and Pat M., nobody else here has ever played pro ball.
————————————————————————————————————————-
I could have. I had a rocket strapped to my shoulder.
Rosy,
Thanks heartily for the Montero/Felix stuff.
So Jesus is prescient – who knew?
Chad. Stop. With the Jesus pictures. Please.
Girardi “played the game.”
What’s his excuse?
That was a rhetorical question…
m says:
January 23, 2012 at 9:26 pm
“…Coulda had Pineda AND Montero.”
===========
Instead, he has Smoak AND Montero (and still lotsa arms onthe farm)
I’m thinking good stuff ahead from Justin and Dustin and Jesus
“Pretty sure if people had the talent and opportunity to get “their hands dirty”, they would.”
m-
you have to make an extreme effort to get anywhere in any field.. i fought my way in to get the opportunity to get my hands dirty. you make your own opportunity.
i don’t have a disdain for people who didn’t play. i have disdain for people who are know it alls about something when they haven’t paid their dues in the respective field whether it’s sports of something else.
the fact is the average person is kind of lazy and doesn’t do half what they could with their lives.
i’m as guilty as anyone sometimes in this regard, but make no mistake, if someone pays their dues with hard work, they’ll know something about what they were doing.
http://www.theonion.com/articl.....ake,27111/
‘Prince Fielder Catching On to the Fact that Teams Take Free Agents Out to Dinner A Lot”
Rosy,
Jesus sounds comfortable. I’m glad for that.
I’m feeling a sudden urge to re-read the Brothers Karamazov.
Good night.
Sorry, J.AP, couldn’t resist….
http://tinyurl.com/7o2yfw3
“i know what an all star pitchers 95mph+ fast ball feels like and you don’t.”
Randy,
Dam Plesac and Curt Schilling are two players are I’m aware of who threw 95+mph at the highest level of baseball for extended careers, and they both think the Yanks got the better end of the deal.
Serious question – whose opinion of these “doers:” – you, Plesac or Schilling should I give more credence to as an observer who has only caught pitchers who have thrown in the high 80s?
Oh, no!!! The legendary batsman and leather guru, Wilson Betemit was stolen out from under the sleeping Cashman’s nose by Baltimore.
Jack Z was on MLB Radio, said it pained him to give up Pineda but they have been on Montero’s bat for a long time. Said his head scout that has followed Montero through the minors says he has never seen anyone barrel as many balls as Montero has. When scouting a bat they look at a bunch of different things. Said they are going into next season with Montero as a catcher. Have a major league catching instructor, minor league catching instructor, and Wedge on the bench as a former catcher all think Jesus can catch. Said Jesus WANTS to catch which is a big factor. Said he was smart and perceptive.
Said Campos is really good and Pineda will hurt but they have a lot of pitching in the minors to fill in the gaps. Said Noesi will be a starter for them.
“Said his head scout that has followed Montero through the minors says he has never seen anyone barrel as many balls as Montero has.”
Cash on right now and Jesus on ESPN radio Seattle at 11:25 http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=5
Said he and Cash were working on this for a month. He called up Cash and said “How do I get Jesus Montero from you?” So interesting that a team wants Montero’s bat, not merely asking it as payment for another good. Said Cash asked about Pineda and they moved on to other things, but eventually came back to Pineda.
I guess the head scout thought Smoak ‘batted more balls’ than Montero?
which head scout told him to sign Figgins?
but yeah, just kidding…
Pineda looks good in a Yankees hat, although I think he kind’ve likes to crank them a little off to the left side. Guy is going to be a stud.
Can’t Wait!!
I guess the head scout thought Smoak ‘batted more balls’ than Montero?
–
The Yankees weren’t offering 5 players for Lee
“i have nothing against pineda. he seems like a nice kid. probably the worst thing for his development is coming to the yankees . his development will likely be frozen where it is now. just like what’s happened with hughes and joba.”
Randy, I respect you as a poster and you’ve probably have forgotten more baseball than i’ll ever know but how could you make such a statement?
So it’s the yankees fault that hughes pulled his hammy in 07, sprained his ankle while rehabbing, had to get prescription glasses, and had a fractured rib that made him go winless in his first as a Major league starter? Btw, came out of shape and had dead-arm?
I dont want to get into JOBA bc he’s a walking storyline but as much as I hated to see monty go you cant tell me with a straight face that you dont see upside in this deal.
“i’m not going to apologize for getting off my couch and getting my hands dirty in the game.
too many people just watch life go by. i prefer learning things by doing them.
you pick up things when you pay your dues.”
Somebody asked you to apologize for getting off your couch and getting your hands dirty in the game?
Good grief.
I remember once, a while back when you were having a debate with another commenter on here, you quite astutely identified how she had a rhetorical habit of establishing two classes of people: those who had the maturity and understanding to see an issue as she did and everyone else. As you pointed out, that line of thinking wasn’t particularly useful or convincing.
And here you are setting up a two-class system of so-called doers and watchers.
That’s fine. In my last comment I restricted my question to those who have had success at the major league level of baseball; all doers who left their couches behind to pay dues and learn things. Some amount of dirt implied.
So if every person on this blog is supposed to listen to you because of your experiences in the game, why shouldn’t we give as much or greater weight to other people with real-life baseball experience who have stated, in public, that they think the Yankees got the better of this trade?
“Because Bautista wasn’t traded as an impact bat. What he became wasn’t foreseeable.”
Exactly.
“I have never read nor heard anyone even remotely suggest that Batista could become what he became after being league average or worse at 26.”
Exactly.
Baseball’s kind of hard to predict.
Just like it was hard to predict Curtis Granderson had .944 vs lefties in him.
The converted 2nd would have a borderline HOF career as a catcher?
That Robinson Cano could be a .900+ OPS player?
“Again, the explicit premise is being able to trade for an established impact bat under 27 who doesn’t play 1B.”
The relevance of the premise being what?
I think the Yankees will find ways to score runs in the future. Because the one thing that is a fairly certain prediction is the Yankees will have greater resources than most other ML teams.
That they may or may not find a impact bat who is under 27 and who doesn’t play 1B doesn’t refute that premise …
…at all.
“My problem is continuing this discussion well beyond the point of tedium.”
Why are you unable to address your problem?
“It has always been about roster depth and construction.”
And about the fallacy of thinking you can accurately predict roster depth and construction with any great accuracy.
Jerkface January 23rd, 2012 at 10:06 pm
Jack Z was on MLB Radio, said it pained him to give up Pineda but they have been on Montero’s bat for a long time. Said his head scout that has followed Montero through the minors says he has never seen anyone barrel as many balls as Montero has. When scouting a bat they look at a bunch of different things. Said they are going into next season with Montero as a catcher. Have a major league catching instructor, minor league catching instructor, and Wedge on the bench as a former catcher all think Jesus can catch. Said Jesus WANTS to catch which is a big factor. Said he was smart and perceptive.
Said Campos is really good and Pineda will hurt but they have a lot of pitching in the minors to fill in the gaps. Said Noesi will be a starter for them.
================
I really wish that I knew what went into the decision to make this deal. I would love to have sat in on the internal discussions for the Yanks. I just don’t see how this deal makes much sense at all.
stuckey-
i don’t have a clue how to play a cello.
i’m friends with a woman who is a world class cello player.
i would listen a whole lot if she had a contrary opinion about something with another musician about something musically related.
i wouldn’t have a whole lot of my own opinions.
of course she’s a hell of a lot smarter than plesac or shilling too.
i’d pay attention to what shilling and plesac said and what other pros said too. then i’d ,within my experience ,weigh what all these people said.
two people who are experts in a field who take opposing positions is very different than two amateurs who take different positions on the same issue.
the experts will get into much more detail of the issue.
i don’t see anyone, shilling or plesac , saying its a given that pineda is going to learn a change and that it’s going to be easy.
when they get down to specifics based on their experience i think you’ll see much more agreement than disagreement.
when it’s abstracted to just god or bad as in a coin flip it can appear that shilling or plesac know little more than two casual fans. that’s not the case though when they get into details.
GB,
mashmore98 Mike Ashmore
by jnorris427
Not sure if all of the EL or Double-A is following suit, but it sounds like Thunder home games will now feature Gameday on MILB.com
5 hours ago
Who is it for AJ? Will the Yankees have to add a young arm to sweeten the deal?
Carlos Lee?
Jason Bay?
Someone else? Mystery player?
It started early last month at the Winter Meetings in Dallas. The Mariners had nearly traded for Montero a year and a half earlier, and Zduriencik wanted to revisit the possibility.
**********
And Cashman passed on Beltran?
Pretty good interview going on with Jack Z on ESPN Radio out of Seattle…
“So if every person on this blog is supposed to listen to you because of your experiences in the game, why shouldn’t we give as much or greater weight to other people with real-life baseball experience who have stated, in public, that they think the Yankees got the better of this trade?”
nick in sf-
by all means read what people say who know more than i do. but read the details and nuances of why they have that opinion. look into the distinctions they are making.
just saying it’s a good deal or a bad deal means little. read why is it a good deal or a bad deal. get into the nitty gritty.
what i notice on the blog is often people not really getting into the details of what’s going on.
it’s much more layered than just ” he’s a yankee , so i’m sure he’ll be a good one cause cashman knows what he’s doing.”
that leaves out a whole lot of the reality of the situation.
randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 10:19 pm
stuckey-
i don’t have a clue how to play a cello.
i’m friends with a woman who is a world class cello player.
i would listen a whole lot if she had a contrary opinion about something with another musician about something musically related.
i wouldn’t have a whole lot of my own opinions.
of course she’s a hell of a lot smarter than plesac or shilling too.
i’d pay attention to what shilling and plesac said and what other pros said too. then i’d ,within my experience ,weigh what all these people said.
two people who are experts in a field who take opposing positions is very different than two amateurs who take different positions on the same issue.
the experts will get into much more detail of the issue.
i don’t see anyone, shilling or plesac , saying its a given that pineda is going to learn a change and that it’s going to be easy.
when they get down to specifics based on their experience i think you’ll see much more agreement than disagreement.
when it’s abstracted to just god or bad as in a coin flip it can appear that shilling or plesac know little more than two casual fans. that’s not the case though when they get into details.
===================
So, in other words, the rest of us are supposed to shut up and listen when an expert opines on an issue, unless we have some form of expertise on the subject ourselves? Humbug. It seems to me that a so-called expert ought to be able to win an argument on the merits without resorting to lording their supposed expertise over their audience. In other words, they would demonstrate their expertise, rather than merely referring to their credentials.
Jesus will be on the Hot Stove League Show at 8:25pm (Pacific) 11:25pm (Eastern)…
http://mynorthwest.com/streams/streampop_espn.php
oh – Jack Z on right now…
“I would love to have sat in on the internal discussions for the Yanks.”
Cashman: hey guys we need some pitching…how about Darvish or Wilson
Hal: have you seen the new CBA?
Cashman: well I guess we could make due until next year and go after Hamels or Cain
Hal: have you seen the new CBA?
Cashman: ok…..is Hank around?
Hal: Hank is…..tied up right now.
Cashman: ok then….well I’ll see what I can do
Hal: great…let me know how it goes
Randy,
Given both their experience and their current positions, which are analysts of MLB, my natural assumption is both of these gentlemen considered Pineda’s make-up and arsenal when expressing their opinions of whether this was a good trade or not for the NY Yankees.
Schilling, as much as a tool as he may be, was a world class pitcher who was pretty clear about his view that you don’t trade a guy with the tools Pineda has, ever.
Now I don’t necessarily think that means he’s right, but you seem to be arguing I should be compelled to, because his experience is without any doubt greater than yours. You both may be “doers” but Schilling both did a lot more and had a lot more to do with.
If, I understood you correctly, that your experience elevates you into a different class of credibility there, I question why you’d choose to spend so much time in a forum that offers no hope to interact with who you’d consider peers in terms of knowledge.
PittsburghYankeeFan January 23rd, 2012 at 10:20 pm
Who is it for AJ? Will the Yankees have to add a young arm to sweeten the deal?
Carlos Lee?
Jason Bay?
Someone else? Mystery player?
============
I think that there is still too much money on Bay’s contract. I think that Cash will try to get us a bargain–somebody relatively young, cost-controlled, and coming off a down season, with siginificant upside. I think that Martin Prado might fit the bill.
“And Cashman passed on Beltran?”
well according to them they mentioned it at the winter meetings and talked about it for like a month before actually doing it…..still though if Cashman thought there was a good chance he was going to deal Montero then he should have jumped all over Beltran for that number.
“So, in other words, the rest of us are supposed to shut up and listen when an expert opines on an issue, unless we have some form of expertise on the subject ourselves? Humbug. ”
hell no, i think it’d be really cool if the next time you go to a symphonic performance ,you whip out your harmonica and start playing along.
listening is so overrated .
“I think that Martin Prado might fit the bill.”
Prado would be great because he’d still allow them to rotation the DH and “rest” guys….but in doing so you’d still be playing a big league regular at every position every day. Prado can play all over…3B, 2b, LF, RF……..
“just saying it’s a good deal or a bad deal means little. read why is it a good deal or a bad deal. get into the nitty gritty. ”
Of course it does. It’s called being succinct. Saying it’s a good deal assumes the one expressing the opinion has weighed all the various elements of the detail and reached a summary conclusion.
randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 10:33 pm
“So, in other words, the rest of us are supposed to shut up and listen when an expert opines on an issue, unless we have some form of expertise on the subject ourselves? Humbug. ”
hell no, i think it’d be really cool if the next time you go to a symphonic performance ,you whip out your harmonica and start playing along.
listening is so overrated .
======================
Straw man argument.
yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2012 at 10:19 pm
GB,
mashmore98 Mike Ashmore
by jnorris427
Not sure if all of the EL or Double-A is following suit, but it sounds like Thunder home games will now feature Gameday on MILB.com
5 hours ago
————————————————————————————————————————-
YsnkeeFem,
I saw that. I wish all leagues used it.
I’m anxious to see what Kevin Long does to finally eliminate Romine’s leg kick. Hopefuly, it gets his bat to what it used to be. He’ll never be a bat like Montero, but he could be a 20 homer, 30 double, .290-.300 type hitter. Even at a 15 homer average, that’s pretty good numbers. He had no bat issues before Trenton, so, not sure why the change, unless it was to try matching Montero’s power, and he isn’t that type of hitter. The next one to straighten out is Laird. He’ll have ST to get that fixed. Also hope that he and Denbo have the same philosophy on hitting.
“If, I understood you correctly, that your experience elevates you into a different class of credibility there, I question why you’d choose to spend so much time in a forum that offers no hope to interact with who you’d consider peers in terms of knowledge.”
there’s a wisdom in masses that happens on a blog. when you put it all together this blog has a fairly high baseball IQ.
when sj44 and cb were on here regularly it was much higher.
Mariners pitching coach on next. Same link as above.
“there’s a wisdom in masses that happens on a blog. when you put it all together this blog has a fairly high baseball IQ.”
But no individual should deem themselves worthy of disagreeing with you?
Yankeefem
Any highlights to share?
” Saying it’s a good deal assumes the one expressing the opinion has weighed all the various elements of the detail and reached a summary conclusion.”
reducing an issue down to a coin flip of one outcome or the other might be appealing to people who are that smart or experienced, but most issues are complex and have many different outcomes.
just saying yes or no doesn’t really say much. why do two experts have opposing opinions. now that’d be interesting.
to me yes or no is just a dumbing down of something for the masses.
if that floats your boat, your choice.
randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 10:38 pm
when sj44 and cb were on here regularly it was much higher.
————-
FWIW, SJ44 spoke heavily in favor of the move on his Twitter page. He doesn’t think that you can pass on a pitcher like Pineda, even if that meant giving up Montero.
randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 10:33 pm
“So, in other words, the rest of us are supposed to shut up and listen when an expert opines on an issue, unless we have some form of expertise on the subject ourselves? Humbug. ”
hell no, i think it’d be really cool if the next time you go to a symphonic performance ,you whip out your harmonica and start playing along.
listening is so overrated .
————————————————————————————————————————-
LMAO. Even at your advanced age, you still have the strength and mental agility to spring a new one, Randy.
By the way, if you want to practice the cello, just grab up a few neighborhood cats and pull them across a hand saw. Same technique, same sound.
“Montero said that, when Rodriguez found out he wasn’t going to the cage every day, Rodriguez said he would fine Montero $100 for every day he didn’t do extra cage work. Montero started going every day.”
A-Rod is such a bad teammate.
Value for Value the trade was fair….I basically just disagree that the Yankees dealt from an area of strength and actually think the opposite…..that’s my biggest issue with the trade.
I hope it works out… that’s all we can do at this point.
blake January 23rd, 2012 at 10:33 pm
“And Cashman passed on Beltran?”
well according to them they mentioned it at the winter meetings and talked about it for like a month before actually doing it…..still though if Cashman thought there was a good chance he was going to deal Montero then he should have jumped all over Beltran for that number.
*********
The kicker is Jack Z approached HIM to try and get Montero. There was strong interest so Cashman passing on Beltran is a head-scratcher indeed, especially at that price.
“He may very well be the best player I’ve ever traded.”
I thought I was done crying over this – literally.
blake January 23rd, 2012 at 10:35 pm
“I think that Martin Prado might fit the bill.”
Prado would be great because he’d still allow them to rotation the DH and “rest” guys….but in doing so you’d still be playing a big league regular at every position every day. Prado can play all over…3B, 2b, LF, RF……
=======
That’s what I was thinking. It might be better if Prado was a lefty, but he is as good a fit for the Yanks needs, as they would be able to find, without giving up too much.
Randy Johnson was the best player he ever traded….he just wasn’t very good when he traded him.
“But no individual should deem themselves worthy of disagreeing with you?”
there’s no value in agreement or disagreement in itself. what’s the reasoning?
what’s the thinking behind it? what are the nuances f the situation?
the blog does get into things fairly thoroughly when you add it all up.
some do contribute more than others. that’s a given in any group.
randy, one guy who is bullish on this trade and has gotten his hands dirty is Pat M. He even knew who Pineda was before the trade and didn’t call Pineda a “random” or “generic” person like you did.
So there are two conflicting opinions about the trade from two baseball people who comment on this blog rather than some invitation-only Dirty Hands Club Doers Baseball Blog.
Which of these two commenters is more objective? Which one has been more reasonable? Which one has a nasty, personal grudge about Cashman?
I think the details and nuances are pretty important (and why exactly do you understand them but other baseball people don’t?), but you condemned the trade in very angry and personal terms right from the get-go, and I think you then tried to back-fill your judgement with reasons.
Could you at least tell me who it was that told you to apologize for getting off your couch?
“That’s what I was thinking. It might be better if Prado was a lefty, but he is as good a fit for the Yanks needs, as they would be able to find, without giving up too much.”
Yea I don’t know what they’d ask….they’d probably want Nunez I would guess. Daniel Murphey would be another similar target to that.
Bret The Hitman January 23rd, 2012 at 10:46 pm
blake January 23rd, 2012 at 10:33 pm
“And Cashman passed on Beltran?”
well according to them they mentioned it at the winter meetings and talked about it for like a month before actually doing it…..still though if Cashman thought there was a good chance he was going to deal Montero then he should have jumped all over Beltran for that number.
*********
The kicker is Jack Z approached HIM to try and get Montero. There was strong interest so Cashman passing on Beltran is a head-scratcher indeed, especially at that price.
================
A bird in the hand… Besides, the Yanks have been pretty clear that they don’t wish to add a big salary. It is what is.
“if that floats your boat, your choice.”
Randy, suggesting that I am uninterested or unable to discuss issues in detail demonstrates you have no memory, no conscious, or both.
Some of the groups in on the Dodgers?
BillShaikin Bill Shaikin
#Dodgers bids confirmed: Cuban, Magic, O’Malley, Gilbert, Cohen, Caruso/Torre, Gold/Disney. Total bids: “More than 10.”
beltran for 2/24 isn’t big salary and it would have been off the books by 2014….that may turn out to be the best signing of the winter.
When Cashman said “area of strength”, I think he meant catchers, not hitting in general.
Pat M – are you here?
“Exactly.”
“Exactly.”
Then there was no reason for you to bring up those players because they didn’t meet the proposed criteria.
“Baseball’s kind of hard to predict.”
John Sterling is that you?
“Just like it was hard to predict Curtis Granderson had .944 vs lefties in him.
The converted 2nd would have a borderline HOF career as a catcher?
That Robinson Cano could be a .900+ OPS player?
The relevance of the premise being what?”
This has nothing to so with the initial inquiry. It was simply that impact offensive players who are under 27 are not traded under the current economic conditions in MLB, similarly situated pitchers have been.
We have never been discussing some player that might turn into one, only current impact players.
So when you say:
“And about the fallacy of thinking you can accurately predict roster depth and construction with any great accuracy.”
The irony is extremely rich.
Every point you have made is an extraneous, off point distraction.
“I think the Yankees will find ways to score runs in the future. Because the one thing that is a fairly certain prediction is the Yankees will have greater resources than most other ML teams.”
The idea is to prepare for what is likely to happen rather than what could happen.
We have baseball actuarial data which strongly suggests that there are likely to be declines with aging players.
Both Jeter and A-Rod are pushing 40. Tex has declined for two straight seasons v. RHP.
We had one ML ready impact bat. We burned him to fortify an organizational strength.
That exposes the Yankees to more risk than necessary.
As for their resources, if you believe that they want to get under the $189m threshold in 2014, and we factor in their pre-existing contractual commitments, they will have to spend less.
In effect, we have a soft salary cap in MLB
Smaller market teams are spending more because of the revenue sharing provisions of recent CBAs. There will be increasing penalties on the Yankees for spending more. For example, there are limits on what the Yankees can spend in the draft and on IFAs, their two main avenues for the acquisition of young talent. So the Yankees face multiple structural hurdles that will limit their ability to add talent despite their resources.
“Why are you unable to address your problem?”
That’s the best you can do?
This is so boring.
Jack Z. hated losing Pineda but raved as did Cliff Floyd about how Montero was able to turn on that inside nasty sinker from Jered Weaver and awed by Jesus’s ability to drive the ball the opposite way. They’d been watching Jesus for quite a while.
They also really liked Noesi, watched him in winter ball as well. Loved his delivery, clean arm. Reminded them of Pedro Astasio. They think Noesi’s going to be a good one.
Carl Willis, Seattle pitching coach on now. Hasn’t said anything about Pineda or Noesi. Mostly talking about the rotation generally. Getting the pitchers ready for Japan games.
Now talking about Noesi… said many scouts had him ahead of Nova.
Murphy also could be a good fit.
“Pull out your harmonica and play along” will be the new national catch phrase on LoHud.
“When Cashman said “area of strength”, I think he meant catchers, not hitting in general.”
yes….but that’s the point….he should have placed Montero into the elite young hitter category….not the catcher category only. They do have depth at catcher….they don’t have anybody above A ball that can hit anywhere near as well as Montero does….so if you look at it like that they actually dealt from an area of weakness.
blake January 23rd, 2012 at 10:53 pm
beltran for 2/24 isn’t big salary and it would have been off the books by 2014….that may turn out to be the best signing of the winter.
==================
If the Yanks are talking about having $2 million for a DH, then $ 12 million is way out of reach.
“LMAO. Even at your advanced age, you still have the strength and mental agility to spring a new one, Randy.”
gb7-
if there’s one thing that gets me going is know it alls when they’ve never done it.
like crawling in jungles with snakes and spiders all around to complete your mission, i’ll defer to you on things like that.
of course instead of going into such conditions just to find your golf ball, i do wonder why you do it. golfs balls really aren’t that expensive.
“If the Yanks are talking about having $2 million for a DH, then $ 12 million is way out of reach.”
they could spend more than 2 million….they probably just don’t want to for any of the guys that are available. If Beltran was out there right now for 2/24 I bet they’d sign him and try to move AJ to clear space for it…..
Two GMs exchanging ideas about a trade and actually following through and coming to an agreement are often two very different things.
Cashman probably discusses trades with other GMs all the time. But actually coming to an agreement on said trade doesn’t happen all that often.
This was the first significant trade the Yanks have made since Granderson and we know Cashman has been in talks with other GMs quite often.
Perhaps Beltran didn’t want to wait a month to sign a contract. Contracts tend to shrink the closer we get to Spring Training.
Randy, I like to keep in practice in case I’m called on to track escapees from the old folks home.
yankeefeminista January 23rd, 2012 at 10:54 pm
Jack Z. hated losing Pineda but raved as did Cliff Floyd about how Montero was able to turn on that inside nasty sinker from Jered Weaver and awed by Jesus’s ability to drive the ball the opposite way. They’d been watching Jesus for quite a while.
They also really liked Noesi, watched him in winter ball as well. Loved his delivery, clean arm. Reminded them of Pedro Astasio. They think Noesi’s going to be a good one.
Carl Willis, Seattle pitching coach on now. Hasn’t said anything about Pineda or Noesi. Mostly talking about the rotation generally. Getting the pitchers ready for Japan games.
Now talking about Noesi… said many scouts had him ahead of Nova.
===================
Sigh. This trade will bug me for some time.
“Randy, suggesting that I am uninterested or unable to discuss issues in detail demonstrates you have no memory, no conscious, or both”
you don’t talk much about mechanics.
to me that’s details.
This amateur scout also thinks Noesi is going to be better than Nova.
OT – Anyone here savvy, like really savvy about knee injuries? I have an appointment with the orthpedic surgeon tomorrow and read the MRI report. It sounds a lot more complicated than I thought it was. But maybe all of the verbiage is part of the the same injury. I’m just wondering what I have in store for me.
Jack Z had this to say about Jesus “the man”…
Most of these deals you try to do your homework on but you don’t really “know” the players. I had a chance to have lunch with Jesus yesterday and spend a couple of hours downtown together. I walked away very impressed. He was very insightful, composed, confident, compassionate. I called Eric (Wedge) immediately and said, “We are gonna like this kid”. You can tell he’s cut from the right cloth…
GF,
I’ve always thought that Noesi was the better of the two, if only slightly. Same with Warren and Phelps. Warren has the better stuff of the two, but, Phelps has the better knowledge in how to use what he has.
“randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 10:38 pm
when sj44 and cb were on here regularly it was much higher.
————-
FWIW, SJ44 spoke heavily in favor of the move on his Twitter page. He doesn’t think that you can pass on a pitcher like Pineda, even if that meant giving up Montero.”
============
tis true.
you’re going to find lots of differing opinions on this one… but isn’t that the mark of a “fair” trade?
blake, I’m just saying I think he was just talking about catchers, I don’t think he meant they have an overflow of young big bats.
Couple things about Noesi and Nova that I saw….Noesi commands the ball better and has always missed more bats than Nova….however Nova makes up for that by sinking the ball….and I’m not sure Noesi has a pitch with the upside of Nova’s slider.
I still like Noesi a lot and also think he’s going to be a solid big league starter…..but I’d rather have Nova right now due to his ability to sink the ball…the improvement of his slider and improved strike out potential….and the fact that he’s done it for a season in the big leagues.
“blake, I’m just saying I think he was just talking about catchers, I don’t think he meant they have an overflow of young big bats.”
Yea I know…and I agree….but I just think that perhaps that’s how they should have been thinking about it.
randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 10:58 pm
“LMAO. Even at your advanced age, you still have the strength and mental agility to spring a new one, Randy.”
gb7-
if there’s one thing that gets me going is know it alls when they’ve never done it.
like crawling in jungles with snakes and spiders all around to complete your mission, i’ll defer to you on things like that.
of course instead of going into such conditions just to find your golf ball, i do wonder why you do it. golfs balls really aren’t that expensive.
===================
On what basis do you feel qualified to make these sweeping sociological assertions about epistemology and the accumulation and development of knowledge? According to the theory that you’ve promulgated here about the value of experiential learning, your experience in professional baseball qualifies you to opine on baseball, not on sociology, psychology, or the philosophy of knowledge.
trisha – true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 11:03 pm
OT – Anyone here savvy, like really savvy about knee injuries? I have an appointment with the orthpedic surgeon tomorrow and read the MRI report. It sounds a lot more complicated than I thought it was. But maybe all of the verbiage is part of the the same injury. I’m just wondering what I have in store for me.
————————————————————————————————————————-
Does it count that I stayed at Motel 6?
Jerk, Rick in NJ, Stucky and ID know everything…just ask them.
GB, didn’t see Romine trying to do too much in Trenton. Went with the pitch especially to the opposite field. I think he would have batted around .300 if not for the concussion and the sore back. Also improved his OBP, but not showing much pop. But still think he can hit around 15+ HR in majors. I’d like to see him get enough time at AAA to continue to work on his hitting.
Sis ~
I have no knowledge about knee injuries but, here’s hoping it’s not as complicated as you imagine and that you come through with flying colors from whatever treatment, etc. is required!
YankeeFem, I didn’t see much of what he did in Trenton, but assumed that’s where he picked up the leg kick.
night guys….play nice
Lots of people had Noesi ahead of Nova, but that was before last year, and since then Nova had a successful year in the majors, especially in the second half.
“Then there was no reason for you to bring up those players because they didn’t meet the proposed criteria.”
Yes there was. It was to demonstrate the criteria was arbitrary and irrelevant. I just chose to show rather than say.
“This has nothing to so with the initial inquiry. It was simply that impact offensive players who are under 27 are not traded under the current economic conditions in MLB,”
Which is pure speculation, and pretty ill-timed speculation at that, considering one just was.
But I’ve seen this movie before. Next time one gets traded, we’ll hear “nobody could have foreseen that” with utter lack of awareness that is the whole point.
“The idea is to prepare for what is likely to happen rather than what could happen.”
You find the chances of the Yankees finding offense in the future to be upper echelon of the league as they have since the early 90′s to be unlikely?
“We had one ML ready impact bat. We burned him to fortify an organizational strength.”
An organizational strength more fragile than any other.
“As for their resources, if you believe that they want to get under the $189m threshold in 2014, and we factor in their pre-existing contractual commitments, they will have to spend less.”
Smaller market teams are spending more because of the revenue sharing provisions of recent CBAs. There will be increasing penalties on the Yankees for spending more. For example, there are limits on what the Yankees can spend in the draft and on IFAs, their two main avenues for the acquisition of young talent. So the Yankees face multiple structural hurdles that will limit their ability to add talent despite their resources.”
And this now and always will equally apply to pitching.
Brian Cashman traded a pitcher for a hitter. And he may well have traded a specific hitter for a specific hitter. It may be Jesus Montero and specifically Jesus Montero that was traded for reasons the NY Yankee organization will never reveal.
The simplicity of this equation is being buried under rational everyone is perfectly aware of.
You don’t like the trade. Cool.
But you’re still doing an awfully lot of spinning of wheels not actually going anywhere.
Neither of us know if this trade will do more to improve run production in a greater degree than prevent runs, or vice versa, but one of us in pretending they do.
“That’s the best you can do?
Nope. This is half-assed at best.
“This is so boring.”
So stop.
I’m wasting my time too, but I’m big enough to own it.
“Jerk, Rick in NJ, Stucky and ID know everything…just ask them.”
I don’t know a damn thing about how this trade is going to work out.
That’s the whole point.
“According to the theory that you’ve promulgated here about the value of experiential learning, your experience in professional baseball qualifies you to opine on baseball, not on sociology, psychology, or the philosophy of knowledge.”
this blog does remind me of the allegory of the cave now that you mention it.
GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 11:05 pm
GF,
I’ve always thought that Noesi was the better of the two, if only slightly. Same with Warren and Phelps. Warren has the better stuff of the two, but, Phelps has the better knowledge in how to use what he has.
——-
Yep, I know you did. I remember you making that claim on several occasions and I tend to agree (at least on Noesi vs. Nova). I haven’t seen enough of Phelps or Warren to make that claim yet.
However, to be fair to Nova, he did far exceed our expectations last season. No question about it. His stuff, especially that slider, was much sharper when he returned from Scranton. His fastball and curve, too.
But Noesi to me just has a better arsenal than Nova and I believe he has a higher upside because he does have swing and miss stuff. I was against sticking him in the pen to be a long man.
There’s nothing wrong with Nova but I think he’ll come back down to earth a bit this season. I hope I’m wrong for the Yanks’ sake.
Ugh. I have no ill feelings toward Pineda by any means, but I have no doubt the Yanks’ front office is going to be as sick as some of us fans are right now once Montero proves the doubters wrong and becomes a star in this league.
JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman
funny how some teams are going to great lengths to pretend they arent interested in #prince fielder
28 minutes ago
Wonder who he’s referring to here? Could it be in response to Cashman’s comments today about looking to acquire a bat through trade rather than free agency?
Most of these deals you try to do your homework on but you don’t really “know” the players. I had a chance to have lunch with Jesus yesterday and spend a couple of hours downtown together. I walked away very impressed. He was very insightful, composed, confident, compassionate. I called Eric (Wedge) immediately and said, “We are gonna like this kid”. You can tell he’s cut from the right cloth…
—————————————-
According to the Yanks he’s venezuela’s answer to James Dean.
GB, I have never seen Romine without the leg kick.
Ghost, They also played Sterling’s calls on the Jesus jacks. Painful.
Rosy, yep, Jack Z. lauded his character. Interesting that he mentioned compassion too. Not something you normally hear brought up about a player.
Trisha, good luck with the knee.
Sis – thanks for the good thoughts. I know now that it’s a lot more than just a torn meniscus. Even that had to sound ominous – “complex tear of the body of the medial meniscus.” (also, chronic MCL sprain, severe cartilage loss in the medial compartment with large osteophytic spurs and subchondral sclerosis, medial tibial plateau spur demonstrating extensive bone marrow edema and transverse lucency is suspicious for fracture of the osteophyte. Moderate volume join effusion. Baker’s cyst.
(However, there is “no muscle strain.” Oh goody goody.)
It does sound complicated!
this blog does remind me of the allegory of the cave now that you mention it.
=============
Of course it would.
YF, thanks. I’d be lying if I were to say I’m not at least a little concerned at this point. I was hoping for that simple arthroscopic surgery. Maybe it will end up being that but all of that other stuff makes me nervous.
I’m listening to Rosy’s Hot Stove station right now.
Deja vu all over again.
GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 11:08 pm
Does it count that I stayed at Motel 6?
______________________________
No. It only counts if you stay at the Holiday Inn Express.
Jesus coming up in just a couple minutes…
http://mynorthwest.com/streams/streampop_espn.php
“Ghost, They also played Sterling’s calls on the Jesus jacks. Painful.”
This is causing me renewed pain. That and hearing Cashman say it was probably the best player he ever traded.
Damn.
“Does it count that I stayed at Motel 6?”
Listening to Rosy’s Hot Stove station and hearing that the upcoming interview is with the Mariner’s latest signing, Jesus Montero – this is like a flippin’ out-of-body experience.
Jeers, lol!
James Dean? That’s blasphemous.
When this trade was first announced on the 13th and the details were coming out, I thought that Jack Z wanted Nova and Montero but Cashman held tight on not giving up Nova but instead Noesi.
So I highly doubt that the people making decisions in the Mariners organization really deep down think that Noesi is going to be a better pitcher than Nova. Seems to be just standard talk after a deal goes down, where the teams are obviously going to talk up their newly acquired players.
It will be painful to watch Jesus be a star. But if Pineda turns into an ace it will be worth it.
http://mynorthwest.com/streams/streampop_espn.php
—-
Jesus is now loose on the airwaves. Interview in process…
Yep, I know you did. I remember you making that claim on several occasions and I tend to agree (at least on Noesi vs. Nova). I haven’t seen enough of Phelps or Warren to make that claim yet.
However, to be fair to Nova, he did far exceed our expectations last season. No question about it. His stuff, especially that slider, was much sharper when he returned from Scranton. His fastball and curve, too.
————————————————————————————————————————-
GF,
I think that it was just the luck of the draw that Nova got to NY first. NY needed a pitcher and noesi had just pitched. Noesi could easily be in the NYYs rotation and Nova on his way to Seattle. Really, not a lot of difference in their results, but, Noesi has better control and strikeout pitches and Nova might give up a few less hits as I remember, more of a pitch to contact and groundball pitcher.
Montero, Second time he has seen snow in his life while he is up in Seattle right now and he is so happy to be a Mariner because he sees more opportunity with them.
Nova developing that slider took him to a new level. We didn’t really see enough of Noesi at the big league level to determine his upside. He would have to have started more in the bigs. Just wasn’t room. I am sure people think his development was hindered.
UnKnown January 23rd, 2012 at 11:33 pm
Montero, Second time he has seen snow in his life while he is up in Seattle right now and he is so happy to be a Mariner because he sees more opportunity with them.
==============
Pro forma boilerplate. It would be interesting if a player expressed his disdain about being sent to a fetid hellhole, with a miserable fanbase, and not a snowball’s chance of being competitive. That’s why guys like Sheffield made the game interesting!
Sheff was awesome. People hate honest athletes.
Sweet Swinging Cano January 23rd, 2012 at 11:34 pm
Nova developing that slider took him to a new level. We didn’t really see enough of Noesi at the big league level to determine his upside. He would have to have started more in the bigs. Just wasn’t room. I am sure people think his development was hindered.
====
I also was intrigued by Noesi. However, I never saw enough of him to form an opinion, and Randy never got around to telling me what I was supposed to think about him.
If Pineda is Sal Mineo in this metaphor then we might have cause for concern.
Jesus sounds very upbeat. He’s moved on. I wish him nothing but luck.
Sweet Swinging Cano January 23rd, 2012 at 11:39 pm
Sheff was awesome. People hate honest athletes.
================================================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeVca9MwDX8
UnKnown January 23rd, 2012 at 11:33 pm
Montero, Second time he has seen snow in his life while he is up in Seattle right now and he is so happy to be a Mariner because he sees more opportunity with them.
——————————
That’s understandable since the Ms actually believe in him.
Noesi is a good kid. He had a good fb and slider from what I saw. But he is not someone we will lose sleep over being dealt.
Houston Astros are looking at changing uniforms and team name. The unfortunately play in Minute Maid park and Selig won’t allow the two most logical names, The Houston Squeeze and almost had a heart atack at the thought of them being named The Houston Juicers.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....059943-996
trisha – true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 11:41 pm
…I wish him nothing but luck.
==================
Likewise.
Montero is probably just happy he’s not blocked by Thurman Munson anymore.
***They unfortunately play in Minute***
Great vid Ghostwriter lol
The Yankees believed in him too. aye aye aye
LGY January 23rd, 2012 at 11:43 pm
Montero is probably just happy he’s not blocked by Thurman Munson anymore.
———————–
The kid never had a chance
“Houston Juicers”
LMAO!!! How about naming them, the “Houston Unindicted Co-Conspirators”?
Montero wasn’t blocked by Thurman Martin, he was blocked by Girardi.
GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 11:42 pm
Houston Astros are looking at changing uniforms and team name. The unfortunately play in Minute Maid park and Selig won’t allow the two most logical names, The Houston Squeeze and almost had a heart atack at the thought of them being named The Houston Juicers.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl…..059943-996
——–
Based on the last several years, in addition to the subsequent rise of their in-state rivals, perhaps they should change their name to the Houston Doormats?
trisha – true pinstriped blue January 23rd, 2012 at 11:41 pm
Jesus sounds very upbeat. He’s moved on. I wish him nothing but luck.
—–
Couldn’t agree more on all accounts. He sounded really excited. It was funny when he said “All I want to do is hit.”
That as Yankee fans we know he can do pretty well.
Giuseppe Franco January 23rd, 2012 at 11:48 pm
GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 11:42 pm
Houston Astros are looking at changing uniforms and team name. The unfortunately play in Minute Maid park and Selig won’t allow the two most logical names, The Houston Squeeze and almost had a heart atack at the thought of them being named The Houston Juicers.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl…..059943-996
——–
Based on the last several years, in addition to the subsequent rise of their in-state rivals, perhaps they should change their name to the Houston Doormats?
————————————————————————————————————————-
Ypu like that better than the Houston Gilleys or Houston Johnsons?
its interesting to know that in his first three full seasons as a starter..with 28 or more starts
King Felix had 4.52 era
Second, 3.93
third full season 3.43
His average whip for all three seasons was 1.3
“Ugh. I have no ill feelings toward Pineda by any means, but I have no doubt the Yanks’ front office is going to be as sick as some of us fans are right now once Montero proves the doubters wrong and becomes a star in this league.”
The doubts people have on Montero is about him being a everyday catcher, not that he won’t be a superior hitter. Furthermore, I will only be sick if Pineda doesn’t realize his potential while Montero becomes an all-star catcher.
GreenBeret7 January 23rd, 2012 at 11:52 pm
Ypu like that better than the Houston Gilleys or Houston Johnsons?
————
LOL. Perhaps you should send those suggestions to Jim Crane!
He hinted that he wants the fans to rattle off ideas and suggestions didn’t he?
Montero could prob be a catcher. But he wont be a very good one. Posada wasnt at first either. But he improved. I believe In pineda.
With a bat like Montero has, why is it so critical that he catch every day? What would be wrong with him extending his career by being backup catcher and dh while being a top quality bat? Less wear and tear, protecting the biggest asset he brings, which his hitting to all fields with power. Sounds a lot better than having a Cervelli as backup who isn’t needed or wanted otherwise.
Crawdaddy January 23rd, 2012 at 11:59 pm
The doubts people have on Montero is about him being a everyday catcher, not that he won’t be a superior hitter. Furthermore, I will only be sick if Pineda doesn’t realize his potential while Montero becomes an all-star catcher.
——-
He will be a catcher. Just watch.
Given his size, he may only be a catcher for a handful of years, but I do think he’ll be an all star catcher at some point. Someone just needs to give him that chance and it appears Seattle is going to do just that.
I like Pineda. The kid has a special arm. But, like it or not, he is the higher risk right now and I hope the Yanks can help further his development and keep him healthy.
“Sigh. This trade will bug me for some time.”
A very long time.
Rich in NJ January 24th, 2012 at 12:08 am
“Sigh. This trade will bug me for some time.”
A very long time.
———
Ditto.
Nothing wrong with it. Had to give to get though.
Here’s hoping Montero goes on to have a HOF career and you guys are bugged forever.
stuckey January 24th, 2012 at 12:13 am
Here’s hoping Montero goes on to have a HOF career and you guys are bugged forever.
——-
Now that’s not nice.
Pineda is going to be so magnified. One bad game and the trolls will be out. Talent should win out though.
Sweet Swinging Cano January 24th, 2012 at 12:05 am
Montero could prob be a catcher. But he wont be a very good one. Posada wasnt at first either. But he improved. I believe In pineda.
///
non sequitur much?….
lol
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Yankees have to trade for a catcher within two years.
Girardi and Cashman made up their minds that Montero wouldn’t be an everyday catcher so he had to be traded. Cash knows that Arod will be the DH for the next couple of years so in his eyes if Montero can’t catch he doesn’t have a spot on this team. It was all talk to keep up his trade value and that’s why they wouldn’t let him catch when he was called up. I just wish Cash and Girardi gave him a chance. His bat is too good to trade him for a prospect. If you trade a bat like his you have to get back an ace/sure thing.
“Cash knows that Arod will be the DH for the next couple of years so in his eyes if Montero can’t catch he doesn’t have a spot on this team.”
I don’t think A-Rod will DH much for at least three years. As CB pointed out, the torque involved in swinging the bat may be what puts A-Rod’s knee/hip at risk, not playing the field.
So even if you are right and A-Rod DHs more sooner rather than later, that could well be a very counterproductive move.
Reading the Cashman tea leaves, I think he may trade AJ for Adam Dunn. If Kevin Long can get Dunn back near his 40-homer form, it could be a great pickup for the Yankees. Andruw is set as the right-handed DH, so a left-handed power hitter makes sense. Each team takes on a bad contract and Cashman tries to make the terms of the trade revenue neutral. They let Jorge Vasquez compete with Dunn in spring training and have him in reserve in case Dunn is a bust. There is some risk but they’re not counting on getting any more production from AJ than they can get from Hughes and/or Garcia. The potential upside is substantial if Kevin Long can work the same magic with Dunn as he did with Granderson.
We might end up missing Montero whether he ends up catching a lot or not, but Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy was a very entertaining movie.
The injuries have been adding up for Arod the last couple of years so if the team thinks that DHing is the best way to keep him healthy they will have to do it. I just hope that Cashman trades for a good bat to DH next year. I don’t think you can trade Montero without having another bat lined up. With guys getting older and other declining Cashman can’t ignore the lineup or it won’t be a strength.
“Now that’s not nice.”
My point was I hope we’re all invested in hoping for the absolute best for Pineda AND Montero and not wishing ill for any of them to either make us feel better about the trade or better how some of the extreme positions taken over this.
I sincerely hope he’s ROY.
why would Cashman take on a three year contract for an extra $11 mil?
Why would the Yanks save AB’s for declining, lesser hitters, if they have better, younger hitters, in their primes they could give those AB’s to? Montero would have either been taking a bad bat out of the lineup from C or DH for years to come. When Sanchez was ready, they could split both jobs.
Brutal trade.
How can this trade work in our favor, Phil?
Short term, I don’t think it can. We’ll get value, maybe ace value out of Pineda eventually, but we created two holes in our O. Noesi might have a good season this year, too.
We should have just made the Kuroda deal, and worked with what we had.
@shannondrayer: Montero shows great enthusiasm in interview, “we are going to win and be the best, just wait and see!” Love it. #Mariners
A-Rod can still play the field well, I think the Yankees will ride that horse as long as they can.
And I vote for “Houston Juicers”.
“@shannondrayer: Montero shows great enthusiasm in interview, “we are going to win and be the best, just wait and see!” Love it. #Mariners”
I have questions about Montero’s ability to catch major league pitching if his eyes are so bad he sees The Mariners winning and being the best.
Thanks for the reply, Phil. I think that’s pretty pessimistic, so I hope you have cause to change your mind about it.
Would you have rather he walked in the door and said “Wow, we suck!” That would have endeared him to his new team. Just think about how much fun he would have in that clubhouse.
I thought players and ex-players are experts. If so, why should we question them?
“Would you have rather he walked in the door and said “Wow, we suck!” That would have endeared him to his new team. Just think about how much fun he would have in that clubhouse.
Was kidding.
Nick,
I do, too. But I’ve been following the Yanks all my life and their farm system since I found out they had one when I was 9 or 10 and you could see what they were doing in The Sporting News. They’ve never had anything like Montero in that time, and I was a guy who knew and wrote that Cano would do just what he does. I don’t know why we couldn’t have waited for Betances a couple more months, and I don’t like it when the Yanks throw prospects at a short term problem they should only throw money at.
I think Pineda is going to be good, but Gary Sanchez is 3 years away and our bridge to both he and the rest of the good young hitters is now burned.
You may be right and it’s not like the Yankees can’t screw up and be wrong.
But I just don’t think the answer to why they made this trade is that they’re idiots or don’t understand that the team will need offense.
They must think they’re going to get enough of it elsewhere and that the gamble on Pineda being more than good was worth what they gave up.
Don’t you think that you’re a little premature in throwing both Martin and Romine out with the trash? Neither are 30 homer hitting catchers, but, they won’t disappoint anybody with their bats, either.
I think the answer to why they did it is that they didn’t want to pay Hamels or Cain next year because they want to get down to 189 for the 2014 Tax Incentive. So, they wanted to find something cheap and ready and rather than pay money, they gave away a huge bat.
We’re going to have to really wait for reinforcements for O, while meanwhile we had Noesi, Phelps, Warren, Betances and Banuelos either MLB ready or due some time this season.
With Kuroda coming in, I don’t know why they even wanted to do this now.
It’s not about being idiots, it’s about resource allocation, overvaluing the importance of pitching, and a manager who seemingly wants a catcher with the skillset he once had.
They disappoint me with their bats. They’ll disappoint Yankee fans with their bats close to 70% of the time. They may or may not disappoint their teammates, but they will burden them.
PhiltheThrill January 24th, 2012 at 1:46 am
We’re going to have to really wait for reinforcements for O, while meanwhile we had Noesi, Phelps, Warren, Betances and Banuelos either MLB ready or due some time this season.
_________________________________
Pretty sure Noesi will not be pitching for the Yankees this season.
How do you know they misallocated their resources and overvalued the importance of pitching?
I’m sure that .300 hitters would disappoint anybody and burden their team mates. Jesus….that’s pathetic.
sammie johnson,
had not have. Read it again.
Green Beret7
I’m not talking about batting averages, I’m not about their OBP’s being barely North of .300.
It’s my opinion. My point is that the trade suggests that, as Phil alluded to, they don’t want to give out another $150m contract to a starter because it will hamper their supposed goal of getting under the $189m threshold, and Cashman has said that “pitching is the keys to the kingdom.” He also said he was willing to trade offense for pitching, and that is just what he did. Sadly, again imo, they traded the one offensive piece that they cannot replace.
Should say, I’m talking about their OBP’s being barely North of .300.
Maybe it just suggests that they really wanted to improve the rotation in 2012 too.
PhiltheThrill January 24th, 2012 at 2:01 am
sammie johnson,
had not have. Read it again.
___________
Ok. I read it again. And it is still my opinion that Noesi will probably not pitch for the Yankees this season….
I’m out. GN
sammie,
and that’s why I said had, because he’s GONE.
Phil, just kidding. I did mis-read it the first time….
Cool. Have a great evening! Peace out!
PhiltheThrill January 24th, 2012 at 2:04 am
Should say, I’m talking about their OBP’s being barely North of .300.
————————————————————————————————————————-
That’s just as idiotic. show more of your successful predictions.
You too.
GB7 -
I blame the trade on my wife. She gave me a Montero signed baseball as a Christmas gift. Fate was against me.
GB7,
Russell Martin 2011
.237 (BA stat you assumed I was talking about)/.324 (pathetic on base percentage).408 (decent enough SLG).
Romine posted an OBP of .200 in his 20 PAs.
People who live in glass houses…
Peace!
randy l. January 23rd, 2012 at 9:49 pm
“Pretty sure if people had the talent and opportunity to get “their hands dirty”, they would.”
m-
you have to make an extreme effort to get anywhere in any field.. i fought my way in to get the opportunity to get my hands dirty. you make your own opportunity.
i don’t have a disdain for people who didn’t play. i have disdain for people who are know it alls about something when they haven’t paid their dues in the respective field whether it’s sports of something else.
the fact is the average person is kind of lazy and doesn’t do half what they could with their lives.
i’m as guilty as anyone sometimes in this regard, but make no mistake, if someone pays their dues with hard work, they’ll know something about what they were doing.
———————————————————————————————————————–
I agree with this.
This is exactly why i believe,if pineda breaks down those barriers,he can learn a changeup.
A lot of pitchers don’t become great til their mid to late 2o’s,lee was one of them.
I also agree that it will be a lot harder to do it in ny,with the yankees,unless cashman,girardi,pineda take a different approack,and make it happen,at all costs.
PhiltheThrill January 24th, 2012 at 5:28 am
GB7,
Russell Martin 2011
.237 (BA stat you assumed I was talking about)/.324 (pathetic on base percentage).408 (decent enough SLG).
Romine posted an OBP of .200 in his 20 PAs.
People who live in glass houses…
Peace!
————————————————————————————————————————-
Wow!!! 20 whole plate appearances, huh? I guess you showed me. You should have thrown his .133 OBP in AAA in my face to really make your point. Martin isn’t a .237 hitter and you know it. Nobody on here is thrilled about the trade, but, assuming that Martin and Romine are both garbage is asinine.
“It’s not about being idiots, it’s about resource allocation, overvaluing the importance of pitching, and a manager who seemingly wants a catcher with the skillset he once had.”
I think you’re overvaluing Montero so it’s going to be interesting following Pineda and Montero to see who’s right here.
Why do I get a feeling certain Yankee fans will be rooting against Pineda while rooting for Montero in hopes of saying their opinion was right and Cashman was wrong in trading Jesus.
They rather be right on this baseball board than to see their team do well.
Crawdaddy -
You’re not alone in that belief.
at least randy was honest about it and said he will be rooting for pineda to fail and montero to succeed so he will be proved right when he predicted this to be the ‘worst trade in franchise history’. most of the other haters deny it.
“You may be right and it’s not like the Yankees can’t screw up and be wrong.
But I just don’t think the answer to why they made this trade is that they’re idiots or don’t understand that the team will need offense.
They must think they’re going to get enough of it elsewhere and that the gamble on Pineda being more than good was worth what they gave up.”
This. From Nick in SF last night.
A refutation of the logical fallacy of appealling to authority.
i.e. I’m the Pope. I am the chief spokesman for the Catholic religion.
Because of this, when I put forth Dogma, it it will automatically be
correct and truthful. Moreso than a well-reasoned argument from
a lay person.
Experience is valuable in any field of endeavor but it has no real bearing
on the veracity of a particular argument.
dig !
And when the smoke clears and the dust has settled.
And at the end of the day.
I’m pulling for both Pineda and Montero to succeed.
They have both worked extremely hard to get where they are and have defied failure so far.
I’m hoping it continues for both of them. The hard work and the success that comes from it.
Morning Everyone . . not sure if its been posted yet ..
Via MLBTR
n a conference call with reporters (including Chad Jennings of the LoHud Yankees blog) today, GM Brian Cashman said he will look to fill the Yankees’ DH spot through a trade, with free agent designated hitters being a “secondary” focus. Cashman said it’s “a possibility” he will try to acquire a hitter using the Yankees’ excess pitchers.
Mike-
It has but it is interesting.
Lot’s of speculation after that was posted.
MTU —
do you any idea ??
Morning MTU -
Very depressing times around here lately for me.
I guess we should hang ‘em up before the season even begins, huh? I mean Randy says Pineda only has a 10% chance of learning a change up. I mean, why bother?
Mike-
I do not know who they might be targeting but the ideal candidate in my mind would be someone who is relatively young, can play 3B and a little
OF, and who can hit for avg. while not K’ing alot.
I expect A-Rod to miss a fair amount of games and I’d like them to have someone who plays the position well when he is DH’ing.
I do not see Nunez as that person at this point.
gotcha MTU ! . .thanks !
VN-
I respect Randy’s experience a great deal.
That said, it does not mean he is right when he argues that Pineda only has a 10 % chance of developing a + CU at the ML level.
For me, I prefer that guys like Hughes and Pineda learn a different pitch.
I will not repeat myself again as I have said which one many times.
People are probably sick of hearing it by now but I think you know which one.
If Pineda can pick up said pitch and own it he will be even more effective IMO.
I do not see why his likelihood of success on learning that one is low.
In point of fact, I argue that it is higher than with the circle change
because it is easier to learn and deos not depend as much on “feel”.
So, in sum, I think Sir Randy is too damn pessimistic.
In fairness, he thinks I am too optimistic.
This is one time I hope he is wrong and I am right.
Time will tell the tale.
Villa Nova-Ya January 24th, 2012 at 7:14 am
Morning MTU -
Very depressing times around here lately for me.
I guess we should hang ‘em up before the season even begins, huh? I mean Randy says Pineda only has a 10% chance of learning a change up. I mean, why bother?
____________________________________________________________________________
Morning Villa, come to Fla 83 today not depressing
It’s been a constant drumbeat of negative this winter. So many self proclaimed experts who has dissed every player either aquired by another team or proposed to be aquired or actually aquired/traded by our team. I think it has somewhat to do with the times, people are so cynical and frustrated with the past 10 years of economic and political performance that many just can’t comeup with anything positive anymore. I see it here all the time.
Ivan Nova learned a potential plus slider in one trip to the minors……basically in a couple of weeks……this notion that guys can’t add a pitch at 23 is unfounded.
Pineda doesn’t even need a CU that’s as good as his fastball and slider….he just need a league average one to give another look and use against lefties……if it becomes plus then that’s even better.
I’ll say again….95+ with command and even one plus secondary pitch at 23 is pretty rare.
MTU January 24th, 2012 at 7:13 am
Mike-
It has but it is interesting.
Lot’s of speculation after that was posted.
__________________________________________________________________________
I will do some fishing today
gary-
And I will try to hit the trail after several days of inclement weather.
You catch a Grouper and I’ll look for that elusive Mountain Lion.
Blake-
Good morning.
What you said above about just needing another look is why I think Randy may be incorrect.
The premise that Pineda has to learn a CC is incorrect IMO.
There are other options that will give him that look, and that may be way easier to master.
That is my belief.
And your point about the command is is well taken too.
The only concern I do have is for Pineda’s health.
His delivery is less than ideal and he is in the age range where danger is more maximal.
If they handle him carefully and maybe clean him up a bit I hope things will
work out well.
In fairness to both sides of the argument I would say that some very cogent reasoning has been presented.
The outcome is far from certain.
Only time will tell which view is in point of fact the correct one.
No amount of argument will overcome that fact.
I am willing to let the fullness of time inform me as to which POV is the correct one.
Russell martin was tied for 10th place in the league for war,for catchers,at 3.1.,tied for 8th in hr,8th in rbi.
He is not great,but if he can get even slightly better,he would be fine.
Your catcher does not have to hit 30/100 to win a ws.
MTU,
I haven’t seen Pineda that much…..but his delivery doesn’t look horrible to me….he gets a little of the inverted W deal going but he repeats it pretty well from what I’ve seen and IMO repeating your delivery might be the #1 thing to avoid injury.
All pitchers are injury risks…..especially ones under 25…..but I don’t think Pineda is carries any more risk than any of the others……so we’ll just have to wait and see.
There is a lot to like about him and if the Yanks had gotten him without trading Montero then everyone would unanimously be doing back flips.
Good morning all.
Most true Yankee fans will still be rooting for the Yankees come opening day. I’m moving on from the trade.
In all honesty, if the Yankees add a bat for DH, given the resigning of CC, the addition of Kuroda, Pineda, I’d bet you would find very few that could/would say this seasons team is not better than last seasons 97 win team.
Blake-
I’d have to disagree with a little bit here.
I am no pitching coach but IMO I have seen young guys with much cleaner and smoother deliveries, and who generate velocity with less effort.
2 examples, which we are both familiar with, are Moore and Banuelos.
Feliz would be another good comp.
Pineda is a bit more like Joba in that he uses a more max. effort approach
with a less optimal total body action. Again, all in my opinion.
He does have good size and his build is more suited to being a starter than Joba’s is IMO.
Will any of that lead to injury ? Who knows. The jury is out. I just hope he is handled with intelligence and insight.
The rest is hard work and good fortune.
That’s my 2 pennies worth.
It’s already better than the team that broke camp last year.
I like Betemit for the bench/3B type roll. He just can’t hit right handed, but they would bemore likely to use him against RHP with Alex as DH.
Is there a better LH hitter who can play some 3B that makes sense?
feels like Groundhog Day again
There is a lot to like about pineda,and i am just as excited about him as i was about montero.
The yankees just were not going to get a pitcher like pineda,unless they make this trade.
They don’t draft high enough.
If pineda fails,the yankees will spend their way out of it.
“I am no pitching coach but IMO I have seen young guys with much cleaner and smoother deliveries, and who generate velocity with less effort.”
Yea im not arguing there….but that still doesn’t mean his mechanics are horrible and doesn’t mean he will get hurt really either. His size should help in that regard I would hope……its tough to be 6’7″ and as smooth as Matt Moore
“I like Betemit for the bench/3B type roll. He just can’t hit right handed, but they would bemore likely to use him against RHP with Alex as DH.”
He’s an Oriole as of last night
86-
Sorry to tell you this but Betemit has been traded.
Check MLBTR for the details.
Rothschild is one of the best in the business and I think that showed last year so Im excited to see what he can do with the big Pineda monster and Manny and Betances as they comes along.
Betemit signed with the O’s per MLBTRs.
Is there a better LH hitter who can play some 3B that makes sense?
==============================
Buck Showalter apparently doesn’t think so.
Really hoping Hughes can stick in the rotation. People forget how young he was when he came up to the big leagues. He is only half a year older than Nova, who was obviously a rookie. He is also only a year older than Noesi and two years older than Betances.
So he has time to pull it together and he an impact starter. He really needs to get on top of the nagging injuries and lack of conditioning. If he comes to spring training in great shape he has a chance to be an exceptional #3 or #4 starter, giving this team a fantastic rotation with CC, Pineda, Kiroda, Hughes and Nova. If all goes right, that could be the best rotation in the league (or it could be mediocre, but that is the risk of pitching).
I assume that they would rather have the open roster spot and cash that they gave to Freddy. Not sure where he falls out in this whole thing.
feels like Groundhog Day again
*—-
LOL LOL
Now on to how the Yankees will add a DH bat.
Apparently they are having trouble getting any team to take on Burnett, especially since the Cubs set the bar by assuming 83% of Zambrano’s bloated contract. If the Yankees eat 27.5M of the 33M, or all but 5.5M they too could move him, but they most likely value his worth higher. The best option is to trade for another bad contract. However the other teams might value their hitters like Lee and Bay more than Burnett.
Cashman has said that he will try and fill the DH thru a trade first, using the excess in pitching. Doubt there’s any chance they can move Soriano, without absorbing some risk of his bloated contract. Trading Nova weakens the team.Hughes value is at a low. Who’s likely to go? AAA pitchers?
Thoughts?
Blake-
That is true but it does increase the likelihood a bit.
I’m sure you’ll admit that.
I hope this does not go over badly but a good outcome on Pineda, and a guy he reminds me of, is Liriano.
Some differences are that Pineda is larger and has way better command.
Liriano also has an excellent CU.
Both guys are big FB, Slider type guys with less than perfect deliveries and more of a max effort style.
I’m hoping that Pineda picks up a 3rd pitch and doesn’t wind up needing TJ like Liriano did.
I do hope he reaches the cieling that is projected for him.
If Liraino could have stayed healthy and improved his command his cieling would have been much higher.
He wasn’t lucky.
“Only time will tell which view is in point of fact the correct one.
No amount of argument will overcome that fact.
I am willing to let the fullness of time inform me as to which POV is the correct one.”
mtu-
we live in a time when people in control of bureaucratic institutions make life difficult for everyone almost every day. we all live in a recession caused by really stupid people or greedy people depending on your view.
“question authority “needs to be every thinking person’s mantra unless they just want to be sheeplike followers.
it’s healthy to question the yankees every move and especially the big ones. maybe the habit will carry over into the rest of peoples lives.
no one is blowing anything up. people are asking questions. if the yankee management can’t take it they need to look for another business.
Trader,
I think there are a lot of options…..they just have to pick the one that fits best. Trading AJ would be preferable……unless you can get a younger bat that they really like for Hughes or one if their other significant chips.
Its hard to know where things stand with AJ without knowing how much money the Yankees have offered to eat…..if they are still only offering 8 million like reported before then its no surprise they haven’t found a taker…..have they offered to eat more?
Blake-
I don’t mean to be contradicty or negative but the fact is that Mr. R has not done a very good job of getting Hughes the CU he needs.
I know that most of the responsibilty falls on the player.
Just sayin’ is all.
I do hope the results with Pineda, et. al are better.
MTU,
Pineda repeats his delivery a lot better than Liriano….even if its not the smoothest thing.
Darn it on Betemit…. thought he was a good fit, but the world doesn’t revolve around utility infielders.
Curious as to which starter(s) Cashman is dangling to find that extra piece. I don’t want any young guys dealt, so we’re either looking at Garcia or an AJ contract-for-contract thing.
“I don’t mean to be contradicty or negative but the fact is that Mr. R has not done a very good job of getting Hughes the CU he needs.”
Let’s see what Larry can do with him healthy though….last year was a lost season for Hughes and Id say lost of the time they spent together was focused on just trying to get his adm strength back.
Randy-
I agree. I’m inquisitive and skeptical. I think you know that.
It’s necessary for survival.
I’m certainly not gonna criticize anyone for that.
And I haven’t.
Curious as to which starter(s) Cashman is dangling to find that extra piece. I don’t want any young guys dealt, so we’re either looking at Garcia or an AJ contract-for-contract thing
========================
We all know the issues with trading Burnett. Garcia doesn’t get you any better than you’d find on the free agent market.
Sure thing Blake.
I haven’t given up on Hughes. You know that.
And I am still hopeful on Rothschild. He is a great improvement over Dave Eiland IMO.
I also understand you criticsm on the Liriano comp but just being better able to repeat with a fairly violent max. effort type of delivery is not a guarantee either.
Like I said. Maybe clean him up a bit, put him on a solid conditioning program, and hope for the best.
That’s all anyone can do.
Randy-
And one more thing. There are few paople I know who question authority or orthodoxy more than me.
You might be one of them but I tend to doubt it.
NYYs need somebody that can actually play 3rd base better than a .940 FPCT and that ain’t Betemit.
I’m irreverant and a natchal’ born iconoclast.
“I’m inquisitive and skeptical. I think you know that.
It’s necessary for survival.”
mtu-
yes, i’d go on a hike down into the canyon with you anytime.
i’m not sure i’d go on any hike with cashman though if he agreed to ride on a mule, i might think about letting him come along.
though one jackass might be more useful than the other.
at least one can carry stuff.
“NYYs need somebody that can actually play 3rd base better than a .940 FPCT and that ain’t Betemit.”
Prado
Blake-
The Braves have wanted to move JJ along with Prado.
Could they be de-coupled ? ( No freakin’ jokes).
Betemit an O? How about Cody Ransom? Ahh the good old days when the Yankees were going to be better off with him.
MTU,
I think they wanted to trade them seperately really…..who knows what they’d ask though. Cash has lots of avenues to explore here……including just signing Cespedes for the money…..though they wont do that id say.
$5 mil for a utility player plus the talent cost? I doubt it. He can’t play shortstop. Who are you giving up?
Pedro Alverez ??? yuck.
Towers lines pitching right…..Pineda for Upton!
jk
Jiminy Cricket Joba is back!
Joba_62 Wake up with a smile and purpose for ur day. I know i did! Have a great day!!
Prado
===================
Where’s the match? Yankees looking to deal excess pitching. Braves don’t need it. In fact, they too are looking bat.
“$5 mil for a utility player plus the talent cost? I doubt it. He can’t play shortstop. Who are you giving up?”
Prado isn’t a utility player…..he’s a .300 hitter in the big leagues pretty much every year but last year and would allow them to do the rotating DH thing while actually having a starting type player out there every day. I don’t know what they’d ask for him….probably Nunez
Randy-
Is Cashman a conventional thinker and if he is does that hurt the Yankees ?
I think the answer is yes to the first part IMO but not necessarily to the 2nd part.
If the Yankees were a small market team with scant resources yes.
By the way, since you’d go on a hike with me I’d be equally glad to let you teach me something about catching. of course I would be a terrible pupil because I lack the ability in the first place. I hope your mountaineering skills are better.
“Where’s the match? Yankees looking to deal excess pitching. Braves don’t need it. In fact, they too are looking bat.”
Probably have to be Nunez +….I don’t know ….just like him….there may not be a match at all trade wise.
Cashman and Randy going hiking together sounds like a preview to a future dateline nbc….or 48 hrs mystery episode
Randy-
2 more of my deficiences are I don’t play golf, and I cannot do russian pistols.
Blake-
Got a feeling Cashman would wind up between a rock and a hard place like Aaron Ralston.
3b’s
1 Jose Bautista Tor
2 Evan Longoria TB
3 Adrian Beltre Tex
4 David Wright NYM
5 Ryan Zimmerman Was
6 Alex Rodriguez NYY
7 Kevin Youkilis Bos
8 Aramis Ramirez Mil
9 Michael Young Tex
10 Pablo Sandoval SF
11 Mark Reynolds Bal
12 Brett Lawrie Tor
13 Ryan Roberts Ari
14 Martin Prado Atl
15 Chase Headley SD
16 Mike Moustakas KC
17 David Freese StL
18 Edwin Encarnacion Tor
19 Lonnie Chisenhall Cle
20 Chipper Jones Atl
21 Pedro Alvarez Pit
22 Danny Valencia Min
23 Sean Rodriguez TB
24 Casey McGehee Pit
25 Emilio Bonifacio Fla
MTU,
Randy would claim he slipped
blake January 24th, 2012 at 8:37 am
“$5 mil for a utility player plus the talent cost? I doubt it. He can’t play shortstop. Who are you giving up?”
Prado isn’t a utility player…..he’s a .300 hitter in the big leagues pretty much every year but last year and would allow them to do the rotating DH thing while actually having a starting type player out there every day. I don’t know what they’d ask for him….probably Nunez
————————————————————————————————————————-
and then spend another $3-4 mil to find a decent shortstop backup? so, now you have $9 mil tied up in utility players. Just resign Chavez. he’s the bes option out there.
The Braves now need to keep Prado to play LF and back up Larry Jones at 3rd.
If the Yankees are looking to trade for a hitter to DH before signing one off the 2M “I’ll take that” heap, in all likelihood it’s for a full time role and not a role to platoon for 2M dollar Andruw Jones.
If they trade Hughes that frees up 3.2M to go along with the 2M.
If they can somehow trade Burnett that saves potentially more, unless it’s for another bad contract with a team that wants to even out the monies in the transaction. Then both teams have to deal with NT clauses.
I think the route that the Yankees will probably have to take is to trade young pitching for a bat. trading Nova would weaken the team. So its Hughes, Joba, or the dearth of good arms, not named Betances or Banuelos, in AAA.
Thoughts?
I’m sorry “dearth” absolutely does not apply to the “abundance” of arms the Yankees have in AAA. Wrong word usage from my non dominant or non-existant brain hemisphere.
Wanted:
Young left-handed hitting ML ballplayer who makes good contact and can hit for average. Trades only. Right-handed batter considered if they have good splits and can play 3rd base and a little OF.
Call Brian at NYY or e-mail at Cashman@ NYY.com
So its Hughes, Joba, or the dearth of good arms, not named Betances or Banuelos, in AAA.
============================
If this is what’s being offered, it’s not going to be a very special bat. GB7 mentioned Butler last night and he’d be great. No idea if the Royals have any interest in dealing him. He’s young and not that unreasonably priced at $8.5M for the next three seasons. If they did though, I don’t think Moore is listening if the names uttered by Cashman are Hughes, Chamberlain and the 2nd line AAA guys.
GB-
Perhaps Chavez is the fallback plan ?
They might be aiming higher right now, or just be trolling.
YT-
Is your corpus collosum split ?
Could be a problem you know.
Let’s say the Yankees are dangling Hughes. What can they get in return for 5.2M from a team looking to add a pitcher, that has an extra bat getting paid no more than 5.2M.
The Royals need starters but Billy Butler, a potential extra bat, makes 8M this year.
Eliminate any AL East teams.
Could the Twins be tempted to trade Chris Parmelee for Hughes and another AAA pitcher?
YT-
For the Hughes they ought to be able to get a reliable rust-free left-hand drive low mile SUV from somewhere outside of the rustbelt.
I think.
A LH bat is preferred, but it’s not a deal breaker
I still have a man crush on Ty Wigginton, but it would probably cost Gardner which just creates a problem to solve a problem.
I’m okay with Chavez… he’s safe but won’t deliver much
“at least randy was honest about it and said he will be rooting for pineda to fail and montero to succeed so he will be proved right when he predicted this to be the ‘worst trade in franchise history’. most of the other haters deny it.”
Pretty sad!
New thread —>
“and then spend another $3-4 mil to find a decent shortstop backup? ”
Or just call up Pena to be a backup player who plays every now and then.
Blake-
Let’s just keep our eyes peeled and ears open because Cashman is gonna show us soon what we are gonna get.
I hope he does not move Hughes unless it is for someone very good.
Could be totally wrong but I got a good feeling about him for this season.