The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


The ones who got away

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 28, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Looking back at the ones who got away goes both ways. This morning, Pinch Hitter Brian took a look at those players he’s rooting for because the Red Sox lost them, but let’s be honest, there are quite a few players scattered around baseball who the Yankees wish they had back.

This is a list of guys the Yankees would like to have still in pinstripes. As we’ll see, wishing they were still with the team isn’t the same as regretting letting them go.

LINEUP
CF Austin Jackson
RF Melky Cabrera
1B Lance Berkman
C Jesus Montero
3B Wilson Betemit
LF Jose Tabata
DH Shelley Duncan
2B Jimmy Paredes
SS Alberto Gonzalez

Of course the Yankees would like to still have Montero in their system, but obviously they felt it was worth trading him away. Betemit is coming off a nice year with the White Sox, but there’s no way the Yankees regret trading him for Nick Swisher. Same applies for trading Jackson for Curtis Granderson. And Alberto Gonzalez makes the list strictly because I couldn’t come up with a better shortstop. There’s no regret about losing him.

There’s more regret with a guy like Tabata, who hasn’t emerged as a superstar but remains a very young player at a thin position for the Yankees. The fact he was lost in a regrettable trade obviously doesn’t help. Berkman and Cabrera are coming off big seasons, and maybe the Yankees wish they’d foreseen that, but how could they? Duncan and Paredes are far from everyday guys for the Yankees, but Duncan has become a solid, part-time power bat — a .484 slugging percentage making league minimum — and Paredes has become a so-so prospect since being traded to Houston.

ROTATION
RHP Ian Kennedy
RHP Alfredo Aceves
RHP Arodys Vizcaino
RHP Dustin Moseley
RHP Hector Noesi

Of course this list starts with Kennedy, but because he was a key part of the Granderson deal, the Yankees can’t second guess that trade too much. Noesi is also a guy the Yankees wish they had in the system, but he was necessary to make the Michael Pineda deal.

Aceves and Moseley, although they’re more back-of-the-rotation/long-relief options, could have stayed in pinstripes without much financial commitment. That’s what makes those two regrettable, especially Aceves, who’s become a valuable piece of the Red Sox staff.

Ultimately, Vizcaino might be the most regrettable of everyone on this list. His prospect stock has continued to grow since being traded in the Javier Vazquez deal, and the winner of that trade might depend on the development of Vizcaino vs. the development of Dante Bichette Jr. (a compensation pick when Vazquez became a free agent).

BULLPEN
RHP
Tyler Clippard
RHP Dan McCutchen
RHP Mark Melancon
RHP Kyle Farnsworth
LHP Mike Dunn
LHP Phil Coke
RHP Jeff Karstens

Mid-level prospects as starters, both Clippard and McCutchen were traded away and converted to relievers. They’ve each found success — especially Clippard — in that relief role. Clippard was originally traded for bit player Jonathan Albaladejo, and McCutchen was part of the regrettable Xavier Nady/Damaso Marte trade, so obviously the Yankees would like to have do-overs. If Clippard had emerged as this sort of relief option in pinstripes, would the team have committed so much money to Rafael Soriano last winter?

Long considered an elite relief prospect, Melancon had some chances in New York, but he never thrived until stepping into the closer’s role in Houston. Would he eventually have found the same success in New York? Was he worth a two-month rental of Berkman?

Dunn was essentially replaced by Boone Logan, Coke was worth trading for Granderson, and it’s hard to imagine the Yankees sticking with Farnsworth long enough to reap the benefit of last year’s strong showing as the Rays closer. Karstens has been a good back-of-the-rotation starter for the Pirates — perhaps better than anticipated — but the Yankees haven’t exactly been desperate for fifth starters and long relievers.

Associated Press photos

 
 

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85 Responses to “The ones who got away”

  1. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    How about Alfonso Soriano? His loss was salved somewhat by getting the long forgotten Alex Rodriguez in return. Whatever became of that Rodriguez guy, anyhow? Carl Pav…Pavelov or something like that….a pitcher, I believe.

  2. m January 28th, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    Montero & Carlos Pena are the only 2 position plays. IPK is not a “regret”, but was the necessary cost of getting Granderson. Who is definitely a regret for Detroit.

    Brokeback Aceves is still a pain in the back with the Red Sox. And we have to wait and see on Noesi, who has some potential to realize.

    Good fun and good job to the guest blogger & Chad.

  3. mick January 28th, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    but let’s be honest, there are quite a few players scattered around baseball who the Yankees wish they had back.
    ==========================
    C’mon Chad….

    This is a list of guys the Yankees would like to have still in pinstripes. As we’ll see, wishing they were still with the team isn’t the same as regretting letting them go.

    LINEUP
    CF Austin Jackson
    RF Melky Cabrera
    1B Lance Berkman
    C Jesus Montero
    3B Wilson Betemit
    LF Jose Tabata
    DH Shelley Duncan
    2B Jimmy Paredes
    SS Alberto Gonzalez

    Really no room for any of these and Betemit flat out stinks.

  4. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    Can’t believe that Chad didn’t mention old buddy, Kei Igawa as one that “got away”.

  5. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    If Montero sticks at C, the chances of this trade sucking increases exponentially.

  6. mick January 28th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    rich
    who would you rather trade, Melo or Stat?

  7. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    Will Zach McAllister become one that got away this year?

  8. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    mick

    Amare, if only because of health reasons, but that probably makes him close to untradeable.

  9. Gary January 28th, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    Fancinating how there just has to be the constant rehash about players now gone playing for other teams. Gosh their GONE, time to move on.

    Must be rehashing about the old players is more fun than rehashing about the Ex wives :-)

  10. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    “Fancinating how there just has to be the constant rehash about players now gone playing for other teams. Gosh their GONE, time to move on.”

    What’s fascinating is that some people think that we can respond to the subject of Chad’s posts.

  11. mick January 28th, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    Amare, if only because of health reasons, but that probably makes him close to untradeable.
    =========================
    rich

    what’s funny is that amare fits the system more than melo.
    you saw last night how the ball moved and they ran.

  12. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    Or can’t. I know we can.

  13. Chad Jennings January 28th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 12:33 pm e
    Can’t believe that Chad didn’t mention old buddy, Kei Igawa as one that “got away”.

    Believe me, it took great restraint. And I actually forgot about John Axford, though, to be fair, he hardly spent any time in the Yankees system, and I don’t think anyone could have expected him to turn into this.

  14. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    mick

    Especially with a PG, but D’Antoni likely won’t be here much longer.

  15. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    In 57 years the entire Dodger fanbase hasn’t whined about the loss of Roberto Clemente to the Pirates as much as Pruf and Rich have about Montero in two weeks.

  16. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    I think the word whining is inapt, but I didn’t know that Clemente was ever Dodger property, so the productive quality of my posts continue….

  17. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    Chad, I never realized Axford was a yankee farmhand until about 2 years ago. He sort of snuck into and out of the system quietly. The one that bothers me is letting Jose Quintana leaving and not adding him to the 40 man roster. Left handed starters are a rare commodity in the Yankee system,

  18. Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 12:56 pm
    I think the word whining is inapt, but I didn’t know that Clemente was ever Dodger property, so the productive quality of my posts continue….

    *********

    Fine – Frank Robinson w/ the Reds – and he had already established himself as generational at the mlb level

    Josh Hamilton was given away in the Rule 5 draft and then traded again to the Rangers for Edison Volquez

    We just marked the anniversary of Ryne Sandberg’s trade from the Phillies

    Heck – even the guy everyone tries to compare Montero to – Cabrera – was dealt after establishing himself at the mlb level

    BUT we do not hear those fan bases constantly complaining and complaining and complaining – b/c life went on – new stars emerged and those franchises did not go under. There will be games, championships, and fun times ahead even without Montero. . . contrary to the opinions of some. . . .

  19. Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 12:57 pm
    Chad, I never realized Axford was a yankee farmhand until about 2 years ago. He sort of snuck into and out of the system quietly. The one that bothers me is letting Jose Quintana leaving and not adding him to the 40 man roster. Left handed starters are a rare commodity in the Yankee system,

    ********

    Naaah – I think he tailed off and did not have the pitches – especially to be taken seriously by the Yanks and given their increasing pitching depth.

  20. robix January 28th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Marte came up big in the ’09 playoffs when Hughes couldn’t, so I’m cool with the Nady/Marte trade.

  21. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    Looks like a huge innings increase by quintana got to him at the end of 2011. almost half of his 5 years of pitching in the minors were pitched last year. 63 inning increase over the 2010 season.

  22. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    Looks like Mark Cuban is out of the Dodger bidding along with Dennis Gilbert. San Diego is possibly on the block next.

  23. Barry January 28th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    The only position player I would like back is Melky, but that is sentimental. From a baseball point of view, no room for him.

  24. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    “BUT we do not hear those fan bases constantly complaining and complaining and complaining – b/c life went on”

    You post the weirdest stuff.

    Frank Robinson was traded in 1965.

    Josh Hamilton had and has incredibly serious drug problems.

    Ryne Sandberg was traded in 1982.

    And you’re comparing that to the reaction to a player who was trade a week or so ago?

    That’s interplanetary strange.

    Again, you wanted to traded Montero for Jimenez, which says a lot about your inability to evaluate talent.

  25. jacksquat January 28th, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    I don’t regret any of these players except maybe Montero.

  26. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    robix January 28th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Marte came up big in the ’09 playoffs when Hughes couldn’t, so I’m cool with the Nady/Marte trade.
    =============

    Didn’t we sign Marte as a free agent following the 2008 season? We still could have signed him, without trading away any players.

    Typically, I’m not wild about trading prospects for short-term rentals, but I don’t regret the Berkman deal. It would have been terrific if the Yanks had brought him back in 2011–he could have been a difference-maker for that club.

  27. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    jacksquat January 28th, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    I don’t regret any of these players except maybe Montero.
    ==========

    I agree. Montero is the one that bugs me. Even if Pineda does fine with the Yanks, I think that my level of regret about this deal will be directly related to Montero’s performance as a Mariner–the better that he does, the worse I will feel. Pineda would have to be the second coming of Sabathia in order for this trade to have been worth it if Montero flourishes.

  28. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    Trading Paredes and Melancon for Berkman was a worthwhile gamble and like the McAllister for Kearnes for a mid-level pitching prospect, didn’t work.

  29. Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
    “BUT we do not hear those fan bases constantly complaining and complaining and complaining – b/c life went on”

    You post the weirdest stuff.

    Frank Robinson was traded in 1965.

    Josh Hamilton had and has incredibly serious drug problems.

    Ryne Sandberg was traded in 1982.

    And you’re comparing that to the reaction to a player who was trade a week or so ago?

    That’s interplanetary strange.

    Again, you wanted to traded Montero for Jimenez, which says a lot about your inability to evaluate talent.

    **********

    What strange is wanting Montero for Jimenez – I remember just posting that he was in the discussion – that is strange and weird.

    I was rebutting your claim against Clemente – by showing other generational bats have been traded and the franchise making the trade and their fan base went on with life w/ less whining than you have done and the other guy who got rid of his season tickets over this trade – which is just silly. . . .silly talk about how this team is going to be scarred for 15 years. . . .as if the Yankees will not address any concerns they have re: their offense over the next 15 years. . . .

  30. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    As I recall, Berkman came up pretty big for the Yanks in the postseason that year. (His postseason performance in 2010 was an early harbinger of the season that he would have in 2011.) As far as it goes, I think that the deal was mostly successful in objectives.

  31. LGY January 28th, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    BUT we do not hear those fan bases constantly complaining and complaining and complaining

    ———

    How do you know this?

  32. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    The Clemente deal had to really hurt, not because who he would have been replacing a year or two later (Furillo or Amaros in ’55 or Jackie Robinson after ’56), but, the fact that he was left open to the Rule 5 draft when the Dodgers tried to hide him. The Dodgers got nothing but a few dollars in return.

  33. Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    LGY January 28th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
    BUT we do not hear those fan bases constantly complaining and complaining and complaining

    ———

    How do you know this?

    ************

    Talk to your Marlins fan – talk them – if you can find them

    Talk to your old school Reds fan – talk to them -

    Talk to your old school Phillies fan from the early 80s – talk to them

    Talk to your Rays fan – if you can find them – talk to them

    It happens – but the complaining – the whining over someone who did not even play significant time for the big league club – the hysteria – amazing. I have asked a psychology student to take a look at the posts these past few weeks and also take a look at the recent prospect hugger movement to try and draw up some conclusions about it – I will post her conclusions when it is done. . . .

  34. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 1:30 pm
    As I recall, Berkman came up pretty big for the Yanks in the postseason that year. (His postseason performance in 2010 was an early harbinger of the season that he would have in 2011.) As far as it goes, I think that the deal was mostly successful in objectives.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    He did hit well in the PS, didn’t he. Performed pretty well in ’22 for the Cards, but, don’t think he liked DHing at all. I was really surprised that he played a fairly decent right field. He was at least as good there as Holliday was in left field.

  35. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    “What strange is wanting Montero for Jimenez – I remember just posting that he was in the discussion – that is strange and weird.”

    It was a ridiculous trade idea. You liked it at the time.

    What’s silly is that, as LGY pointed out, you have no idea how other fanbases reacted to those trades, especially pre-interweb, and that you somehow think that the lack of reverberations 30-50 years later have any relevance to this situation.

  36. Tar January 28th, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    Ask Sox fans what they think about the Jeff Bagwell trade.

  37. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    LGY January 28th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
    BUT we do not hear those fan bases constantly complaining and complaining and complaining

    ———

    How do you know this?

    ************

    Talk to your Marlins fan – talk them – if you can find them

    Talk to your old school Reds fan – talk to them -

    Talk to your old school Phillies fan from the early 80s – talk to them

    Talk to your Rays fan – if you can find them – talk to them

    It happens – but the complaining – the whining over someone who did not even play significant time for the big league club – the hysteria – amazing. I have asked a psychology student to take a look at the posts these past few weeks and also take a look at the recent prospect hugger movement to try and draw up some conclusions about it – I will post her conclusions when it is done. . . .
    =============

    So, I take this to mean that you have actually found these folks, and discussed it with them?

    I can hardly wait to see your friend’s amateur psychoanalysis of us. Because the Internet is suffering from a shortage of dimestore pyshcoanalysis. :roll:

  38. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    It isn’t just the Montero trade with people like you..it’s the donstant complaints about players that NYYs did acquire like Johnson, Brown and others and the ones that they didn’t like Haren, Lee and Holliday that goes on even 3-5 years later.

  39. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    ***constant***

  40. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 1:30 pm
    As I recall, Berkman came up pretty big for the Yanks in the postseason that year. (His postseason performance in 2010 was an early harbinger of the season that he would have in 2011.) As far as it goes, I think that the deal was mostly successful in objectives.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    He did hit well in the PS, didn’t he. Performed pretty well in ’22 for the Cards, but, don’t think he liked DHing at all. I was really surprised that he played a fairly decent right field. He was at least as good there as Holliday was in left field.
    ===============

    With Merkman in rightfield in 2011, the Yanks might have made a nice little run at the WS. What could have been… Sigh….

    I was pretty happy for Berkman last October. He seems like a stand-up guy to me, and it’s nice to see guys like that overcome adversity.

  41. Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 1:40 pm
    “What strange is wanting Montero for Jimenez – I remember just posting that he was in the discussion – that is strange and weird.”

    It was a ridiculous trade idea. You liked it at the time.

    What’s silly is that, as LGY pointed out, you have no idea how other fanbases reacted to those trades, especially pre-interweb, and that you somehow think that the lack of reverberations 30-50 years later have any relevance to this situation.

    ********

    As I said – talk to them – I know the Reds and Phillies – cannot speak to the Marlins and Rays b/c I do not know anyone – but I know people who lived through Robinson and Sandberg – and I talked them about this Montero hysteria – so yeah – I kind of do w/ the Reds and the phanatics. . . . .

  42. blake January 28th, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    The Red Sox have traded away a lot more good players than the Yankees have over the last 10-15 years

  43. Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    So, I take this to mean that you have actually found these folks, and discussed it with them?

    I can hardly wait to see your friend’s amateur psychoanalysis of us. Because the Internet is suffering from a shortage of dimestore pyshcoanalysis.

    ********

    Sure thing – I will – the one thing she has noticed is how some posters take ownership over these prospects – almost an adoptive approach. They travel to Charleston, Tampa, or Staten Island and watch the player – and by pretending w/ their amateur scouting abilities to identify certain qualities and experiencing it all – they create a bond with the player. They are almost the scout who finds the “natural” in the cornfield – and they champion it. It made me think of the Edward James Almos movie where he finds a can’t miss pitching prospect and then ends out catching him – terrible movie – but innocent to watch on HBO on a Saturday afternoon in the 90s. But I will post it (or e-mail probably) to anyone who is interested when she is done. . . .

  44. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    “As I said – talk to them – I know the Reds and Phillies – cannot speak to the Marlins and Rays b/c I do not know anyone – but I know people who lived through Robinson and Sandberg – and I talked them about this Montero hysteria – so yeah – I kind of do w/ the Reds and the phanatics. . . . .”

    Talk to them? Like there were many people of age in the mid ’60s and early ’80s who had a well-informed understanding of their mL systems at a time when there was no mass dissemination of prospect information. Whaaaat?

    That truly is hysterical (iow, a huge gap between subjective and objective reality).

    Seriously, you post such strange stuff.

  45. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 1:40 pm
    “What strange is wanting Montero for Jimenez – I remember just posting that he was in the discussion – that is strange and weird.”

    It was a ridiculous trade idea. You liked it at the time.

    What’s silly is that, as LGY pointed out, you have no idea how other fanbases reacted to those trades, especially pre-interweb, and that you somehow think that the lack of reverberations 30-50 years later have any relevance to this situation.

    ********

    As I said – talk to them – I know the Reds and Phillies – cannot speak to the Marlins and Rays b/c I do not know anyone – but I know people who lived through Robinson and Sandberg – and I talked them about this Montero hysteria – so yeah – I kind of do w/ the Reds and the phanatics. .
    ================

    How do you know that you have a representative sample of Reds/Phillies fans?

    It’s one thing for you to say that you find the reactions of some fans on this forum to be overwrought and exaggerated. However, it is quite another to make the case that these reactions are somehow abnormal, based on some half-assed historical comparison. With the former, I think that you could have a point, and with the latter, you don’t have a leg to stand on.

  46. Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    alk to them? Like there were many people of age in the mid ’60s and early ’80s who had a well-informed understanding of their mL systems

    **********

    Reds fans in the 60s knew who Frank was – come on – come on – seriously. . . .

  47. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    That Cubs-Phillies trade had to really sting more because it was a Larry Bowa for Ivan Dejesus trade and Sandberg was a toss-in to the deal because they had Manny Trillo and then Juan Samuel at 2nd base. Had to hurt as much as them trading Fergie Jenkins to the Cubs for Larry Jackson.

  48. m January 28th, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    Seriously. Is there another blog like this? Are Yankee fans the most obsessed fan base? And are the people here the most OCD fans in the world?

  49. Tar January 28th, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    “almost an adoptive approach.”
    “identify certain qualities and experiencing it all – they create a bond with the player”

    Congrats to you Freudian friend. Apparently she has discovered a new species. Maybe we should call them “FANS”.

  50. Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    How do you know that you have a representative sample of Reds/Phillies fans?

    It’s one thing for you to say that you find the reactions of some fans on this forum to be overwrought and exaggerated. However, it is quite another to make the case that these reactions are somehow abnormal, based on some half-assed historical comparison. With the former, I think that you could have a point, and with the latter, you don’t have a leg to stand on.

    **********

    These are well adjusted individuals who just laughed off these reactions I told them about – especially canceling season tickets over a trade of a prospect. The Reds fan I talked to – said even after Frank’s trade – that did not stop him from going to games. That this trade is going to scar the offense for 15 years – is laughable – other fan bases have gone through much more traumatic trades/experiences than some prospect being traded and survived. The way people here are reacting is more akin to European club soccer or something with the hysterics. Truly bizarre – especially when the guy did not even play a full season in the bigs. . . .

  51. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    “Reds fans in the 60s knew who Frank was – come on – come on – seriously. . . .”

    Oh, so maybe that reveals why you have a problem. It’s not merely about knowing who someone was. It’s about watching a player play in games on the net (and in person) over the years. It’s about breaking down their stats on a granular level. It’s about reading numerous scouting reports and the breakdown of those reports. It’s about watching videos analyses of mechanics.

    The world has changed a lot since the mid-60s. Some of us note the difference. Apparently, some don’t…

  52. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    “Sure thing – I will – the one thing she has noticed is how some posters take ownership over these prospects – almost an adoptive approach. They travel to Charleston, Tampa, or Staten Island and watch the player – and by pretending w/ their amateur scouting abilities to identify certain qualities and experiencing it all – they create a bond with the player. They are almost the scout who finds the “natural” in the cornfield – and they champion it. It made me think of the Edward James Almos movie where he finds a can’t miss pitching prospect and then ends out catching him – terrible movie – but innocent to watch on HBO on a Saturday afternoon in the 90s. But I will post it (or e-mail probably) to anyone who is interested when she is done. . . .”

    I don’t mean to be unkind, but I was sarcastic earlier, when I remarked about wanting to see her “analysis”.

  53. Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    Tar January 28th, 2012 at 1:59 pm
    “almost an adoptive approach.”
    “identify certain qualities and experiencing it all – they create a bond with the player”

    Congrats to you Freudian friend. Apparently she has discovered a new species. Maybe we should call them “FANS”.

    ********

    No – it is something more than just a fan – it is this fantasy created – especially at such a young stage – and projecting on the player this expectations and then lashing out – it is something about society as the hype grows – the “hype” is the reality or greater than the reality. It is almost as if – say a baseball team created a player from fiction – put some stats on the internet – BA and other publications hype them up – you see some tape of some actor swinging a bat a few times – yet in this scenario you have never seen the player actually perform and what they can do on the real stage – you are just dealing with abstract reports, a few games watched – and on this – creating this myth, this generational legend. The legend is created before it is EARNED.

  54. Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    I don’t mean to be unkind, but I was sarcastic earlier, when I remarked about wanting to see her “analysis”.

    *******

    Don’t worry – I knew that – I guess I was countering your sarcasm by showing it did not really faze me. . . .

  55. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    How do you know that you have a representative sample of Reds/Phillies fans?

    It’s one thing for you to say that you find the reactions of some fans on this forum to be overwrought and exaggerated. However, it is quite another to make the case that these reactions are somehow abnormal, based on some half-assed historical comparison. With the former, I think that you could have a point, and with the latter, you don’t have a leg to stand on.

    **********

    These are well adjusted individuals who just laughed off these reactions I told them about – especially canceling season tickets over a trade of a prospect. The Reds fan I talked to – said even after Frank’s trade – that did not stop him from going to games. That this trade is going to scar the offense for 15 years – is laughable – other fan bases have gone through much more traumatic trades/experiences than some prospect being traded and survived. The way people here are reacting is more akin to European club soccer or something with the hysterics. Truly bizarre – especially when the guy did not even play a full season in the bigs. . . .
    ========

    I see. You have talked to one Red’s fan, and this qualifies you to make comments about the general population of Reds’ fans. Got it.

  56. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    People would be surprised by the number of people who followed the minor leaguers in their team’s system back before the internet. They followed them on the radio and through magazines like Street And Smith, Baseball Digest, Baseball Monthly and the Sporting News that gave a good weekly rundown on the farms. They weren’t as indifferent or ignorant about the farm teams as you might think. Many of those had question and answer sections about the farms.

  57. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Stoneburner January 28th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    I don’t mean to be unkind, but I was sarcastic earlier, when I remarked about wanting to see her “analysis”.

    *******

    Don’t worry – I knew that – I guess I was countering your sarcasm by showing it did not really faze me. . . .
    =========

    Fair enough :)

  58. Pat M. January 28th, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz

  59. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    People would be surprised by the number of people who followed the minor leaguers in their team’s system back before the internet. They followed them on the radio and through magazines like Street And Smith, Baseball Digest, Baseball Monthly and the Sporting News that gave a good weekly rundown on the farms. They weren’t as indifferent or ignorant about the farm teams as you might think. Many of those had question and answer sections about the farms.
    ===================

    That really isn’t all that surprising given the improvements and falling costs in communications technologies over the last 20 years. However, back in the day, it must have been really tough for a fan to track their favorite team’s farm system. Heck, it must have bee tough for the team’s GM to track the farm system.

  60. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    BTW, who said that they cancelled their season tix over the Montero trade? I missed that post. It does seem like a bit of an overreaction. However, cancelling season tix for a minor league club does seem like a reasonable response.

  61. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Sports talk shows is not an entirely new phenomenon….especially in the mid-west of the 60s and 70s. In Chicago, when the white Sox traded Luis Aparicio and Al Smith to Baltimore for Hansen, Pete Ward and Wilhelm, people were threatening to burn down Comiskey Park with John Allyn in it. Cleveland talk shows went crazy when frank Lane traded Roger Maris and them exploded when he traded Rocky Colavito.

  62. LGY January 28th, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    Amateur psychologists are my favorite kind of internet experts.

  63. RadioKev January 28th, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    Pineda would have to be the second coming of Sabathia in order for this trade to have been worth it if Montero flourishes.
    ——–

    Yeah, but that’s kind of the point.

  64. Bret The Hitman January 28th, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Been mulling the idea of Andre Ethier lately as DH. His bat really completes the lineup. Career .291 hitter. Lefty. 29 years old. He can play LF, RF and backup 1b in an emergency. He doesn’t strike out. He hits for extra bases. He has been consistent throughout his career so you know what you’re getting.

    It would be tough to part with 2 years of Phil Hughes for just one year of Ethier but I hope the Yankees can do that deal.

  65. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 2:13 pm
    GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    People would be surprised by the number of people who followed the minor leaguers in their team’s system back before the internet. They followed them on the radio and through magazines like Street And Smith, Baseball Digest, Baseball Monthly and the Sporting News that gave a good weekly rundown on the farms. They weren’t as indifferent or ignorant about the farm teams as you might think. Many of those had question and answer sections about the farms.
    ===================

    That really isn’t all that surprising given the improvements and falling costs in communications technologies over the last 20 years. However, back in the day, it must have been really tough for a fan to track their favorite team’s farm system. Heck, it must have bee tough for the team’s GM to track the farm system.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    You’d be surprised at how many old time fans followed the minors on the radio back then. on clear nights, you could pick up a few games on AM radio. I used to listen to the Richmond Yankees back then. That’s where I first heard about Mel Stottlemyre.

  66. Bret The Hitman January 28th, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    Ethier has a career .909 OPS vs. righties.

  67. RadioKev January 28th, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    I didn’t agree with the Montero trade either, but I’m not worrying about it. Montero and Pineda are pretty similar in terms of prospect level. Both have their plus tools, and both need improvement to reach their potential.

    Pitchers are a riskier business than batters. I question the strategy, the whole “pitching is the keys to the kingdom” ideology, but talent for talent the disparity is minimal.

  68. Bret The Hitman January 28th, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    The short porch in RF also makes Ethier an even more dangerous hitter.

  69. RadioKev January 28th, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    m January 28th, 2012 at 1:59 pm
    Seriously. Is there another blog like this? Are Yankee fans the most obsessed fan base? And are the people here the most OCD fans in the world?
    ———-

    My bud is a huge Mets fan. There fan base sounds more creative, but just as obsessive.

  70. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    Ethier can’t possibly be as good as David Dejesus is.

  71. Bret The Hitman January 28th, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    zzzzz

  72. Ghostwriter January 28th, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    “I question the strategy, the whole “pitching is the keys to the kingdom” ideology, but talent for talent the disparity is minimal.”
    =====================
    I don’t think that there is any question that pitching is more important than hitting to building a winning or championship ballclub. However, concluding from this observation that hitting is unimportant is wrong-headed in the extreme. I’m not suggesting that Cashman has determined that hitting is unimportant. However, considering the stockpile of young arms and the relative dearth of impact bats that the Yanks have in the system, I don’t understand this trade, which seems to be the result of some mistaken over-emphasis on pitching.

  73. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    “My bud is a huge Mets fan. There fan base sounds more creative, but just as obsessive.”

    The Mets’ fanbase has to be well-schooled on reading balance sheets and legal motions.

    Later.

  74. Bronx Jeers January 28th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    1st ST game is in 5 weeks.

    Sat March 3rd, 1:05 pm @ Phillies.

  75. 108 stitches January 28th, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    Like anybody else, Cashman is not mistake free but when the dust clears he’s done pretty well and still working on other moves with chips to deal when necessary.
    The team that’s put together for the 2012 season has made improvement over the 2011 team as most will agree. Age ? Every team has some.
    Cashman spoke of pitching-pitching-pitching in November and the pitching has fewer questions.

  76. Melkmanisinhotlanta January 28th, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    Why would Cashdoop announce that one of the pitchers would be traded? Talk about an overrated GM.

  77. Melkmanisinhotlanta January 28th, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    Mark Cuban will buy the Mutts.

  78. Crawdaddy January 28th, 2012 at 3:03 pm

    Before the internet, after trades were made, fans of the respective teams would hope their team made the right move and that acquired players play well for their team. Now, with the internet boards like this one, some fans hope when certain trades are made against their wishes, such trades turns out bad for their team so they can tell everybody on their board how smart they are and how dumb their GM is.

    They rather appear to be right and their team suffer than to be wrong in their stated trade opinion and their team prospers.

  79. jacksquat January 28th, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    It seems unlikely Cuban will be allowed to buy a MLB team as long as Selig is the commish. The Dodgers may have been his chance since MLB doesn’t have to approve (beyond a background check I guess), but I think the Dodgers are more than he wants to (or can) spend.

  80. Crawdaddy January 28th, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    The Dodgers are probably going to the highest bidder which is definitely something Selig and MLB has ignored in the past.

  81. CompassRosy January 28th, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Here’s hoping Baseball America doesn’t have the same jinx as SI or Maddon NFL ;-)

    http://tinyurl.com/8987xsg

  82. Crawdaddy January 28th, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    “Here’s hoping Baseball America doesn’t have the same jinx as SI or Maddon NFL”

    Why?

  83. Crawdaddy January 28th, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    That picture is not Pineda or Campos, it’s Taijuan Walker, a Mariners prospect.

  84. RadioKev January 28th, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    I don’t think that there is any question that pitching is more important than hitting to building a winning or championship ballclub.
    ———

    I don’t know if I’d say pitching is more important, it takes a mix. How many teams have won the World Series in the past decade on the back of pitching? The White Sox and The Giants.

    The mid-2000s were extremely deficient in the pitching department. Now we’re a much better balance. Did we need Pineda versus did we need Montero? Tough to say.

  85. CompassRosy January 28th, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    That picture is not Pineda or Campos, it’s Taijuan Walker, a Mariners prospect.
    ========

    Yep. A young, hyped athlete selected for the cover of a publication whose business it is to evaluation young talent. Just hoping their evaluations prove accurate :-)


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