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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


A week of saying goodbye

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 29, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Yankees officially took care of a few inevitable orders of business last week, but the most memorable moment was certainly Jorge Posada’s retirement press conference. It was an emotional celebration of the longtime catcher’s life and career.

“Playing for the? New york Yankees has been an honor,” he said. “I could never wear another uniform. Being a part of seven World Series and having five rings is something I never could have imagined being a part of. It was just priceless. I will forever be a Yankee.?”

Officially, the Yankees lost Posada and Jesus Montero in the same week, leaving a massive hole at designated hitter. Filling that hole will almost certainly be the focus of these last few weeks of the offseason.

The rest of the week in review…

• Speaking of saying goodbye, the Yankees officially goodbye to Montero when they finalized their trade with the Mariners. “He may very well be the best player I’ve ever traded,” Brian Cashman said.

• Despite an abundance of designated hitter types on the free agent market, Cashman made it clear that he would like to trade some of his excess starting pitching to acquire a bat. There could be another significant move in the Yankees future.

• Hiroki Kuroda is officially on the roster. Almost two weeks after the two sides agreed to terms, the Kuroda signing was made official. Kevin Whelan was designated for assignment to open a spot on the 40-man roster.

• Andruw Jones is also officially on the roster. News of his signing broke in December, but it didn’t become official until Wednesday.

• All of the arbitration-eligible Yankees are officially under contract. The Yankees took care of the last on on Thursday, agreeing to a one-year deal with Boone Logan.

• Joba Chamberlain took to Twitter to announce that his Tommy John rehab is still moving forward, including throwing off flat ground with Larry Rothschild.

• MLB Network and MLB.com revealed their Top 100 prospects list, including Yankees prospects Manny Banuelos, Dellin Betances, Gary Sanchez and Mason Williams. When the list was initially posted online, Banuelos was ranked on spot ahead of Jesus Montero. The two have since been swapped. Weird.

• Yoenis Cespedes is officially on the free agent market, though I still doubt the Yankees will be heavily involved. Spending big on such an unproven player seems completely opposite of everything else the Yankees have done this winter.

• The biggest name still on the market finally signed when Prince Fielder agreed to a massive nine-year deal with the Tigers.

Associated Press photos

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223 Responses to “A week of saying goodbye”

  1. JK January 29th, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    What you guys think of letting Granderson & Swisher walk and going all in on Ellsbury?

  2. GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    Why do you think Jacoby Ellsbury would be any cheaper than Granderson will be if they both get close to last year’s numbers? He’s just under $2 mil less than Granderson.

  3. Jerkface January 29th, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    I don’t know how realistic it is…..but I think the Yanks are putting their hopes into a Sabathia, Pineda, + home growns rotation. ..I think that’s where they are hoping to save enough money to get below 189.

    Yea I guess that is their plan, but I don’t think its very realistic at all. They can only realize cost savings if their young pitching is good (in which case for Pineda/nova it becomes expensive) and if anyone struggles you won’t see the Yankees stick with all 3 in the rotation. More likely it becomes another competition thing.

  4. Jerkface January 29th, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    The biggest issue is covering C, 2B, CF, RF, and DH.

  5. Bret The Hitman January 29th, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    I just hope Cashman gets something good for Hughes because nobody wants AJ.

  6. JK January 29th, 2012 at 7:48 pm

    GB,

    My concern is not $$$ it’s age. Do you want to lock Granderson up @ 18M+ into the his late 30s, with steroids & amphetamines pretty much out the game.

  7. blake January 29th, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    If they turn out good then Pineda and Nova won’t be all that expensive by 2014….they’ll both be what Arb 2′s….I mean they’ll make some money but not that much.

    If their rotation consists of

    Sabathia
    Pineda
    Nova
    Banuelos
    Betances

    by 2014 then they have a chance….if Hamels or somebody like that is needed in there then it’s going to be extremely tight. They are going to have to hit on their pitching prospects to get under that threshold and stay a championship contender….if those guys don’t pan out then they’ll be faced with a decision of either forgetting the soft cap and acquiring what it takes to win…..or……not.

  8. blake January 29th, 2012 at 7:59 pm

    Also….extending Cano now would give them a much better idea of where they are at looking towards 2014. They really don’t want to get into a situation where that figures into the leverage that winter…..go ahead and sign him and get that into the budget planning now..

  9. Crawdaddy January 29th, 2012 at 8:04 pm

    2014 is a lifetime in baseball. We know what the Yankees will want to happen with their starting rotation, but predicting who the players will be besides CC can be challenging which is why Cashman is obtaining as many choices as possible because who knows what happens between now and then.

  10. Bret The Hitman January 29th, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    Blake,

    Who would you prefer, Hamels at 25 million or Cain at 18 million?

    Or do you think the spread between the two would be smaller?

  11. Crawdaddy January 29th, 2012 at 8:12 pm

    If Cain goes on the open market, he’s going to get more than 18M per season.

  12. randy l. January 29th, 2012 at 8:14 pm

    monkeyshines?

  13. RhapsodyInBlue January 29th, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    Joba on the local news tonight after attending the cerebral telethon in Albany.

    He looks good, his hair is pretty long.

  14. blake January 29th, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    “Or do you think the spread between the two would be smaller?”

    I think if they both reach the market then they’ll command similar type deals….I would guess Hamels would get a bit more because he’s left handed….but in the same ball park….

  15. PhiltheThrill January 29th, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    They traded for Pineda thinking that would keep them from having to spend on Cain or Hamels next year.

  16. Crawdaddy January 29th, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    “They traded for Pineda thinking that would keep them from having to spend on Cain or Hamels next year.”

    IMO, that’s the general idea. However, you have to make sure you don’t place all of your eggs in one basket.

  17. jacksquat January 29th, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    Jerkface January 29th, 2012 at 6:51 pm
    The biggest issue is covering C, 2B, CF, RF, and DH.

    You should just pencil in Cano for 2B at $23mil AAV. I highly doubt that doesn’t get done.

  18. PhiltheThrill January 29th, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    It seems their unwillingness to part with Banuelos and Betance would indicate they think they have more than one basket.

  19. Nilsson January 29th, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    Crawdaddy January 29th, 2012 at 8:04 pm

    2014 is a lifetime in baseball. We know what the Yankees will want to happen with their starting rotation, but predicting who the players will be besides CC can be challenging which is why Cashman is obtaining as many choices as possible because who knows what happens between now and then.

    —————————————————————————–

    Well said. Just to add to your point, I think Pineda helps mitigate the pressure on Betances and Banuelos. It struck me to read recently where Montero put added pressure on himself to make the team out of spring training last year and his struggles likely carried over into the AAA season.

    I think it ought to help relieve some of the burden that the B’s feel. I suspect they also read articles and aware of online forums.

  20. Crawdaddy January 29th, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    “It seems their unwillingness to part with Banuelos and Betance would indicate they think they have more than one basket.”

    I’m not disputing that at all which is why I stated earlier in another post that Cashman will try to give the Yankees more than a few pitching options to pick from.

  21. PhiltheThrill January 29th, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    It’s all about doing that while they get below the tax threshold for 2014.

  22. Crawdaddy January 29th, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    A daunting task, but not impossible to do.

  23. Crawdaddy January 29th, 2012 at 8:37 pm

    It’s going to take good decision-making and discipline on the part of Yankee ownership and management. A culture change for them as well as their fanbase.

  24. Crawdaddy January 29th, 2012 at 8:38 pm

    Good night all. Time to view my second disk of Justified Season 2.

  25. PhiltheThrill January 29th, 2012 at 8:38 pm

    that’s why we’re gonna see some odd stuff from them over the next two years.

  26. blake January 29th, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    “They traded for Pineda thinking that would keep them from having to spend on Cain or Hamels next year.”

    I agree….but I also think they probably had some concerns that neither one of them would be options anyway.

    I think the Giants are going to lock Cain up and even if Hamels does hit free agency…the Dodgers are going to be there waiting with a big check to bring him back to Cali…..

    I think in addition to wanting to save the money they wanted to add some insurance to their rotation that they knew they could get in the present. Now I don’t really agree with what they did….but I’m guessing that’s their thinking.

  27. randy l. January 29th, 2012 at 8:48 pm

    the next ace that cashman develops will be the first.

    if pitching is so important shouldn’t cashman delegate it to someone who has shown success in actually developing one.

    i suppose simply getting as many young pitchers as possible and rolling the dice to come up with one is one way to do it, but it seems to be a very inefficient way to do it.

  28. blake January 29th, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    ‘the next ace that cashman develops will be the first.”

    here is the thing….and G. Love had a good post about this the other day….Hughes and Joba haven’t exactly met expectations yet….but they haven’t flamed out yet either….they are both in the big leagues and contributors with some ups and downs like most young pitchers have. Most teams have guys that were hyped and never reach potential….

    it’s only because the system was neglected for so long that the Yankees just haven’t had that many chances at it recently….Kennedy is close to a frontline guy now and he came up through the Yankees system.

    I think/hope the Yanks have learned from what happened with Joba in particular and hopefully we’ll see some evidence of that with this next wave of upside guys that will come through soon. FWIW, I am encouraged by how Banuelos and Betances have been handled to this point……

  29. PhiltheThrill January 29th, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    I think the Yanks have snagged some really high upside arms in the draft and IFA over the past two years or so.

  30. blake January 29th, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    Pitchers are so unpredictable that I think getting as many good ones as you can and hoping 1 or 2 pan out might be the best way to do it….it’s not efficient no….but just so many things have to go right for a kid to become a good big league starter……they should sign that Concepcion kid and add him to the list

  31. randy l. January 29th, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    “.Kennedy is close to a frontline guy now and he came up through the Yankees system.”

    blake-

    did kennedy survive the yankee system and escape from it or was he developed in it?

    he was pretty good when he got into the system, and was injured quite a bit in it. when he was traded he was coming off injuries. was it justbad luck or did the yankee development bring on the injuries?

    hughes and joba have had more than their share of injuries too. i don’t think it’s unfair to wonder if kennedy would have been as erratic and injury prone as joba and hughes had he stayed with the yankees.

    kennedy might be the proof that the yankees don’t develop rather than be the proof they do.

  32. theREALkevin January 29th, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    Wouldn’t be surprised to see Betances traded at some point. IDK for who though.

  33. Jerkface January 29th, 2012 at 9:24 pm

    If they turn out good then Pineda and Nova won’t be all that expensive by 2014….they’ll both be what Arb 2?s….I mean they’ll make some money but not that much.

    If they are any good they’ll both be making good money. 6+ mil from each if they improve. Pineda could be even better. Jered Weaver made 7 million coming off a 3.75 ERA season in Arb-2. Pineda is likely to be a super-2 as well.

  34. RadioKev January 29th, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    kennedy might be the proof that the yankees don’t develop rather than be the proof they do.
    ——–

    Yes, the Yankees are incredible at developing aneurysms.

  35. GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    Arizona didn’t have Kennedy long enough to develop anything. All they had him long enough to do was let him get healthy. He has the same pitches now as he did with NYYs.

  36. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 9:28 pm

    What IPK should represent to the Yankees is that they can identify talent but that they need to do a better job of developing starting pitchers, because really, they have been horrible at that.

  37. exiledintampa January 29th, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    I think Randy nailed it in a way. They get enough high up side pitchers, then maybe they hit the jackpot with a couple. Kinda like buying enough lottery tickets gives you more chances to win.

  38. Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    “Arizona didn’t have Kennedy long enough to develop anything. All they had him long enough to do was let him get healthy. He has the same pitches now as he did with NYYs.”

    ========

    Amen!

  39. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 9:30 pm

    Arizona had Kennedy plenty long enough to help him with sequencing, which can be huge.

  40. Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 9:31 pm

    So the yankees can predict injuries??

  41. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 9:33 pm

    ” Kinda like buying enough lottery tickets gives you more chances to win.”

    Putting them in the pen can be like throwing them away before the drawing.

  42. Stoneburner January 29th, 2012 at 9:33 pm

    He has the same pitches now as he did with NYYs.”

    ************

    And for the most part as he had at USC. IPK was a top charter before his junior draft season – and fell to us in the 20s after a not so spectacular last college season – but he was great on Team USA – and had the development already as an amateur in college.

  43. tomingeorgia January 29th, 2012 at 9:34 pm

    Benny,
    randy and rich seem to be saying the Yankees CAUSE the injuries,

  44. Jerkface January 29th, 2012 at 9:37 pm

    Arizona had Kennedy plenty long enough to help him with sequencing, which can be huge.

    Kennedy credits Arizona for helping him with some stuff, but that could be just talking up your own pitching coach.

  45. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 9:39 pm

    “randy and rich seem to be saying the Yankees CAUSE the injuries,”

    Is there some secret code that you use to read my posts, but that’s laughably false.

  46. LGY January 29th, 2012 at 9:39 pm

    Ian Kennedy PitchFX

    2007:

    FA: 59.1%
    FT: 0%
    CH: 16.3%
    CU: 11.2%
    SL: 10.9%

    2008:

    FA: 63.3%
    FT: 0%
    CH: 14.3%
    CU: 9.1%
    SL: 6.2%

    2010

    FA: 43%
    FT: 14.2%
    CH: 19.4%
    CU: 17.4%
    SL: 5.8%

    2011

    FA: 29.8%
    FT: 36.8%
    CH: 14.3%
    CU: 10.2%
    SL: 8.9%

  47. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    “Kennedy credits Arizona for helping him with some stuff, but that could be just talking up your own pitching coach.”

    My point is that when people say that Arirzona did nothing nurture him is kind of silly.

  48. blake January 29th, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    “kennedy might be the proof that the yankees don’t develop rather than be the proof they do.”

    the sample size was so small in NY…I don’t think we can draw too much from that. At the end of the day…the players have something to say about their careers as well and how well they develop.

  49. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 9:43 pm

    Where are some people so authoritarian about any criticism of the Yankees to the point where they distort reality?

  50. Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 9:45 pm

    Rich and Randy,

    I dont think any of us can make you two change your opinion of how cashman runs the yankees program. I respect your thoughts and opinions but it just seems as though any move that cashman makes will not be a good one in your eyes.

    He’s damned if he does or doesn’t.

  51. tomingeorgia January 29th, 2012 at 9:45 pm

    randy l. January 29th, 2012 at 9:07 pm
    “.Kennedy is close to a frontline guy now and he came up through the Yankees system.”

    blake-

    did kennedy survive the yankee system and escape from it or was he developed in it?

    he was pretty good when he got into the system, and was injured quite a bit in it. when he was traded he was coming off injuries. was it justbad luck or did the yankee development bring on the injuries?

    hughes and joba have had more than their share of injuries too. i don’t think it’s unfair to wonder if kennedy would have been as erratic and injury prone as joba and hughes had he stayed with the yankees.

    kennedy might be the proof that the yankees don’t develop rather than be the proof they do.
    —-
    Rich,
    I apologize, but what does randy’s comment suggest?

  52. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    “He’s damned if he does or doesn’t.”

    This is a crock. I gave Cashman credit earlier today for being against negotiating with A-Rod if he opted out. I have given credit to him for forbearing on trading for Santana and waiting for CC. I gave him credit for telling Torre to stop running relievers into the ground, and whatever else he does right, imo.

    I can’t respect your opinion if you just make sh!t up about mine.

  53. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 9:49 pm

    Rich,
    I apologize, but what does randy’s comment suggest?
    __

    OK.

    I understand your point about his post.

    To reiterate, my point about development is not about injuries. It’s about getting talent to reach their ceiling.

  54. LGY January 29th, 2012 at 9:50 pm

    The one thing I don’t get about the people pushing the pitching wins narrative is why there seems to be such widespread content with the Granderson trade.

    The Yankees traded a top of the rotation pitcher for Grandy. Why is that a good trade if “pitching wins?”

  55. Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 9:52 pm

    “This is a crock. I gave Cashman credit earlier today for being against negotiating with A-Rod if he opted out. I have given credit to him for forbearing on trading for Santana and waiting for CC. I gave him credit for telling Torre to stop running relievers into the ground, and whatever else he does right, imo.”

    WOW, I didn’t see that post, and I dont have a selective memory.. :) If you said that then I believe you. I will retract what i just stated.

    However more of you recent post have been very critical of cashman.

  56. LGY January 29th, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    Question. Who would you rather have right now?

    Pineda and Grandy

    Or

    IPK, Jackson, and Montero

  57. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    “However more of you recent post have been very critical of cashman.”

    I hate the Montero trade to the point where I have to re-evalute my prior defenses of his questionable moves: Weaver, Pavano, Vazquez 2x, Brown.

    I think Montero was the most important player on the team along with Cano for the next five years.

    The trade is a game changer, imo.

    If I am proved wrong, I will admit it.

  58. blake January 29th, 2012 at 9:57 pm

    “Question. Who would you rather have right now?

    Pineda and Grandy

    Or

    IPK, Jackson, and Montero”

    Well if they still had IPK and Jackson they would have signed Holliday…..

  59. GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 9:58 pm

    Wow!!! Cashman should be sending Rich a thank you note for giving him credit. Then you say something stupid (often) but, it’s you that doesn’t somebody elses opinion because you get called on it. Why the Hell do some of you chose to live among mere people like the rest of us when you have the five of you to remind each other how much more intelligent you are than the rest of the world?

  60. Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 9:58 pm

    “If I am proved wrong, I will admit it.”

    And if you turn out to be right I will give you major kudos.

  61. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 9:59 pm

    Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    “Kennedy credits Arizona for helping him with some stuff, but that could be just talking up your own pitching coach.”

    My point is that when people say that Arirzona did nothing nurture him is kind of silly.

    ——————————-

    That’s just fans pointing to Kennedy as a guy the Yankees “developed” Ask yourself this question did the Expos take credit for Johnson.

  62. jacksquat January 29th, 2012 at 10:01 pm

    Cashman should not be criticized for Vazquez. He was coming off a 143 ERA+ season and was 4th in Cy Young voting. No one could have forseen him inexplicably losing several mph off his fastball.

    And Pavano was just an injury nightmare. Show me one gm that has a crystal ball and predicts things like that, other than with previously highly injury prone players.

  63. GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:01 pm

    but, kennedy wouldn’t be any good. no way the yankees could have developed him.

  64. blake January 29th, 2012 at 10:02 pm

    Kennedy came up through the Yankees system….doesn’t mean he was a finished product when he was traded….but he put up really good numbers in the minors as well….it’s not like he sucked the whole time he was with the Yankees and the Dbacks magically cured him. He had a total minor league ERA of 1.95 and a sub 1 WHIP as a Yankee minor leaguer.

  65. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:01 pm

    but, kennedy wouldn’t be any good. no way the yankees could have developed him.

    ———————————————–

    They haven’t developed a starter as good as him yet. Nova as much as I like him has to do it again.

  66. blake January 29th, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    but despite that….everyone said he was a 5th starter for the Yankees….because he didn’t throw hard I guess….

  67. RadioKev January 29th, 2012 at 10:05 pm

    blake January 29th, 2012 at 10:04 pm
    but despite that….everyone said he was a 5th starter for the Yankees….because he didn’t throw hard I guess….
    ———–

    People on here too

  68. blake January 29th, 2012 at 10:06 pm

    Kennedy pitched all of his minor league innings with the Yankees….A ball all the way up through AAA….they had a big part in his development

  69. GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:06 pm

    blake January 29th, 2012 at 10:02 pm
    Kennedy came up through the Yankees system….doesn’t mean he was a finished product when he was traded….but he put up really good numbers in the minors as well….it’s not like he sucked the whole time he was with the Yankees and the Dbacks magically cured him. He had a total minor league ERA of 1.95 and a sub 1 WHIP as a Yankee minor leaguer.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    what part of not healthy is so hard to understand. Bursitis , groin pull and an aneurism. all were up long before they should have been (2007) because the yankees were fighting for playoff positions.

  70. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:07 pm

    blake January 29th, 2012 at 10:02 pm

    Kennedy came up through the Yankees system….doesn’t mean he was a finished product when he was traded….but he put up really good numbers in the minors as well….it’s not like he sucked the whole time he was with the Yankees and the Dbacks magically cured him. He had a total minor league ERA of 1.95 and a sub 1 WHIP as a Yankee minor leaguer.

    ————————————

    True but his major league success has been with the Dbacks

  71. blake January 29th, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    “True but his major league success has been with the Dbacks”

    yes…because he was traded. He hardly got a real shot with the Yankees or a chance to work past the early struggles that most all pitchers go through. He got healthy with the Dbacks and got an extended shot to show what he could do…..Kennedy had better minor league numbers than both Betances and Banuelos have put up so far.

  72. Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 10:11 pm

    hey haven’t developed a starter as good as him yet. Nova as much as I like him has to do it again.

    ========

    at least win nova came up in his first year and won a freggin game. I love IPK but when he got handed the job he put up a donut!!!!

    Kennedy ( age 23) 0-4 with a 8.17 era in 9 starts

    Nova ( age 23) 1-2 with a 4.50 era in 7 starts

  73. GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:12 pm

    Billy Beane and Oakland are supposed to be such hotshots at developing pitchers, but, what happens to those pitchers? They’re young and every one them gets hurt. For years, Toronto was supposed to be so great at developing pitchers, but, most of them end up getting hurt.

  74. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:12 pm

    blake January 29th, 2012 at 10:06 pm

    Kennedy pitched all of his minor league innings with the Yankees….A ball all the way up through AAA….they had a big part in his development

    ——————————–

    Again true but IMO fans can’t take bows for him coming through the system as a guy they developed because in reality there is no one else. Not saying you’re doing that but I seen many ppl clinging to him as a pitcher they developed.

  75. Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 10:13 pm

    “but despite that….everyone said he was a 5th starter for the Yankees….because he didn’t throw hard I guess….”

    Exactly Blake,

    Everyone felt as if he had to throw 97 to get ML hitter out..

  76. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    blake January 29th, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    “True but his major league success has been with the Dbacks”

    yes…because he was traded. He hardly got a real shot with the Yankees or a chance to work past the early struggles that most all pitchers go through.

    ——————————————-

    Sounds like the Yankees gave up on him too early but thankfully we got Granderson

  77. blake January 29th, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    did the Mariners develop Pineda…or if he comes to NY and takes the next step can Cashman then claim that the Yankees did?

  78. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    For years, Toronto was supposed to be so great at developing pitchers, but, most of them end up getting hurt.

    ———————————–

    They have Ricky Romero

  79. GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:15 pm

    Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 10:11 pm
    hey haven’t developed a starter as good as him yet. Nova as much as I like him has to do it again.

    ========

    at least win nova came up in his first year and won a freggin game. I love IPK but when he got handed the job he put up a donut!!!!

    Kennedy ( age 23) 0-4 with a 8.17 era in 9 starts

    Nova ( age 23) 1-2 with a 4.50 era in 7 starts

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Go back and look at Kennedy’s 2007 starts late in the season.

  80. PhiltheThrill January 29th, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    Wang was a good pitcher who was in the system for a good long time, before coming up and having a lot of success with the Yanks. Sure, he went through injuries and surgeries as part of the long time he was in the minors, but he really did give us some good years before he hurt his foot in Houston.

  81. blake January 29th, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    Can’t regret the Granderson deal because of who they got in return….it wound up being fair for everyone….but it’s really rare that a trade works out like that. Someone usually wins and someone usually loses in the end…

  82. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:17 pm

    Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 10:11 pm

    hey haven’t developed a starter as good as him yet. Nova as much as I like him has to do it again.

    ========

    at least win nova came up in his first year and won a freggin game. I love IPK but when he got handed the job he put up a donut!!!!

    Kennedy ( age 23) 0-4 with a 8.17 era in 9 starts

    Nova ( age 23) 1-2 with a 4.50 era in 7 starts
    ———————-

    Yes Kennedy didn’t win a single game in his 9 starts. It was tough for him that season.

  83. Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 10:18 pm

    GB7,

    I remember those starts. I was just pointing out when he was given the starting job in 08. I had no beef with IPK. He pitched lights out in those starts in August 2007.

  84. GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:14 pm
    For years, Toronto was supposed to be so great at developing pitchers, but, most of them end up getting hurt.

    ———————————–

    They have Ricky Romero

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    What does MOST of them mean to you? Try Litsch, McGowen, Richmond and Marcum

  85. Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 10:22 pm

    “Yes Kennedy didn’t win a single game in his 9 starts. It was tough for him that season.”

    Best to ever do it,

    I was absolutely shocked that IPK struggled as badly as he did that year. When he was called up in 2007 he was lights out.

  86. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:14 pm
    For years, Toronto was supposed to be so great at developing pitchers, but, most of them end up getting hurt.

    ———————————–

    They have Ricky Romero

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    What does MOST of them mean to you? Try Litsch, McGowen, Richmond and Marcum

    ——————————

    Doesn’t matter all you need is one guy to make it through and you wouldn’t hear a word.

  87. GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:24 pm

    Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 10:18 pm
    GB7,

    I remember those starts. I was just pointing out when he was given the starting job in 08. I had no beef with IPK. He pitched lights out in those starts in August 2007.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    He had bursitis behind the shoulder. who knows how much or when that started in 2008, but, shortly after getting sent back to Scranton, he went on the DL for a month.

    Mussina was never overly friendly with other players, but, it was on his recommendation that both Kennedy’s and Hughes’ lockers were moved next to his so he could tak pitching with him. I assume that he saw a young Mussina in them. Hughes had a young Mussina’s stuff but Kennedy had those pitches.

  88. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:27 pm

    Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 10:22 pm

    “Yes Kennedy didn’t win a single game in his 9 starts. It was tough for him that season.”

    Best to ever do it,

    I was absolutely shocked that IPK struggled as badly as he did that year. When he was called up in 2007 he was lights out.
    ———————

    I was shocked as well but he probably had too much put on his shoulders. Coming off a fantastic minor league season and some very good starts in 07, apart of the big 3, expected to hold down a rotation spot in NY, struggling for the first time in his baseball life, lack of patience with the fans, etc.

  89. GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:27 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:23 pm
    GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:14 pm
    For years, Toronto was supposed to be so great at developing pitchers, but, most of them end up getting hurt.

    ———————————–

    They have Ricky Romero

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    What does MOST of them mean to you? Try Litsch, McGowen, Richmond and Marcum

    ——————————

    Doesn’t matter all you need is one guy to make it through and you wouldn’t hear a word.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    You have Hughes and Chamberlain for two years and both in different roles and Nova last yea. Then you said you needed to see another year from Nova. Now you ask for just one year. Which is it?

  90. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:30 pm

    GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:27 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:23 pm
    GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:14 pm
    For years, Toronto was supposed to be so great at developing pitchers, but, most of them end up getting hurt.

    ———————————–

    They have Ricky Romero

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    What does MOST of them mean to you? Try Litsch, McGowen, Richmond and Marcum

    ——————————

    Doesn’t matter all you need is one guy to make it through and you wouldn’t hear a word.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    You have Hughes and Chamberlain for two years and both in different roles and Nova last yea. Then you said you needed to see another year from Nova. Now you ask for just one year. Which is it?

    ————————————————–

    Hughes and Joba have been up and down in their careers.
    One guy not one yr.
    My wanting to see another yr of Nova has more to do with fans that are quick to point to him as a guy they developed.

  91. GreenBeret7 January 29th, 2012 at 10:33 pm

    You’re full of it.

  92. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:38 pm

    Full of what you asked for an explanation and I gave it to you. Would you rather have me say they have done a fine job at developing pitchers.

  93. Benny Blanco January 29th, 2012 at 10:50 pm

    I took the liberty of looking up some stats on certain players…. just for S&its and giggles.

    Ricky Romero – 5 seasons in the minors leagues 16-23 w/ 4.42 Era 430 inn with 336k’s and 1.47 WHiP??

    Phil Hughes 7 seasons 32-8 2.35 era 344 inns 385k with 0.927 whip

    King Felix 3 seasons 30-10 2.59 era 308 inn 363K with a 1.21 whip.

    WTH is wrong with phil hughes?? He k’s 10.1 per innings in the minors. I still cant figure it out??

  94. Best To Ever Do It January 29th, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    His stuff has taken a step back and some fans believe after the hamstring injury he has altered his delivery because he doesn’t completely trust his legs.

  95. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 11:15 pm

    “Wow!!! Cashman should be sending Rich a thank you note for giving him credit. Then you say something stupid (often)”

    The Earth is still flat I see.

  96. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 11:16 pm

    “And Pavano was just an injury nightmare. Show me one gm that has a crystal ball and predicts things like that, other than with previously highly injury prone players.”

    You got credit or blame for your decisions. That’s just how life works.

  97. jacksquat January 29th, 2012 at 11:24 pm

    Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 11:16 pm
    “And Pavano was just an injury nightmare. Show me one gm that has a crystal ball and predicts things like that, other than with previously highly injury prone players.”

    You got credit or blame for your decisions. That’s just how life works.

    I am not blaming Cashman for bad luck.

  98. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 11:26 pm

    “I am not blaming Cashman for bad luck.”

    Then why give him credit for good luck?

  99. Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 11:35 pm

    There is one thing that was foreseeable about Vazquez (the second time), he hasn’t had two consecutive seasons with an ERA+ > 100 since ’02-’03.

    When he was acquired the first time, he led MLB starters in BP’s Abuse Points.

  100. Jacques Strappe January 29th, 2012 at 11:45 pm

    2014 Yankees:

    Positions:
    C- Romine
    1B – Tex
    2B – Cano
    SS – Maybe Nunez? It feels strange not knowing it’ll be Jeter!
    3B – A-Rod and/or somebody
    OF – Gardner, Granderson, Ellsbury (Yes, I say sign both. Field an awesome OF until Granderson ages)
    DH – A-Rod and/or somebody

    Rotation:
    Sabathia
    Pineda
    Hughes
    Nova
    Banuelos

    Bullpen – always hard to predict a bullpen 2 years ahead of time but maybe:
    Chamberlain
    Robertson (seems like Mo’s likely heir so far)
    Cast of characters TBD

    Bat Boy – Burnett (unless they can trade him off sooner)

  101. Jerkface January 29th, 2012 at 11:58 pm

    Jacques,

    Sorry but that roster would not fit within 189 million.

  102. Jerkface January 29th, 2012 at 11:59 pm

    did the Mariners develop Pineda…or if he comes to NY and takes the next step can Cashman then claim that the Yankees did?

    If he develops his change up into a good third pitch and becomes very good for the Yankees then Cashman/The Yankees/Rothschild deserves all the credit in the world.

  103. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 12:02 am

    “If he develops his change up into a good third pitch and becomes very good for the Yankees then Cashman/The Yankees/Rothschild deserves all the credit in the world.”

    Seconded.

  104. Nick in SF January 30th, 2012 at 12:10 am

    Cashman has already rescued Pineda from a soggy, over-caffeinated hell.

    I give him credit for that right now.

  105. Benny Blanco January 30th, 2012 at 12:40 am

    Pineda was throwing gas in this video versus texas…

    http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play......8;c_id=mlb

  106. jacksquat January 30th, 2012 at 2:30 am

    Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 11:26 pm

    Then why give him credit for good luck?

    Where did I give him credit for good luck? Reading comprehension.

    Rich in NJ January 29th, 2012 at 11:35 pm
    There is one thing that was foreseeable about Vazquez (the second time), he hasn’t had two consecutive seasons with an ERA+ > 100 since ’02-’03.

    Oh I see, Cashman should look for on/off patterns, sort of like reading tea leaves.

    When he was acquired the first time, he led MLB starters in BP’s Abuse Points.

    Wasn’t talking about the first time, so irrelevant.

  107. Pat M. January 30th, 2012 at 3:05 am

    The great 2008 experiment was doomed coming out of camp…..Kennedy had a shoulder problem and Hughes had a rib problem….Both guys are young and don’t want to blow their chance and conceal their injuries……But in fact they made things worse for themselves……Oddly Hughes gets the only postseason win as a reliever…….Joba comes up with shoulder tendonitis ,but Torre has the club pushing hard to make the playoffs after such a horrible start and Joba is out for a short time ……Some say that Joba should have been shut down for the season or at the least 30 days on the DL……Funny how things have turned out fr these three, but do keep in mind they are still pretty young still………Ian misses all of 09 but does come back to pitch for Scranton in the playoffs and is stunningly very good…….Two months later he’s a Diamondback

  108. Jerkface January 30th, 2012 at 3:08 am

    Pat,

    You’re confusing 2007 and 2008. Girardi was the manager in 08 and they didn’t make the playoffs. Joba didnt miss any time in 07 with shoulder tendonitis. Hughes got his win in 07.

  109. Villa Nova-Ya January 30th, 2012 at 6:45 am

    But Pat M is spot on with this part:

    “The great 2008 experiment was doomed coming out of camp…..Kennedy had a shoulder problem and Hughes had a rib problem….Both guys are young and don’t want to blow their chance and conceal their injuries……But in fact they made things worse for themselves……”

  110. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 6:49 am

    Where did I give him credit for good luck? Reading comprehension.
    -
    Common sense.

    Oh I see, Cashman should look for on/off patterns, sort of like reading teas
    -
    Career patterns are some of the most informative information there is.

  111. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 6:53 am

    Pat M’s post offers reasons why the “2008 experiment” should have been tried again rather than abandoned forever.

  112. blake January 30th, 2012 at 7:31 am

    Morning everyone. You guys ready for another day of solving all the Yankees problems? :)

  113. austinmac January 30th, 2012 at 7:40 am

    No, Blake, it is another day of blaming the Yankee coaching staff for all pitching failures. Had Hughes and Joba been anywhere else they would be competing for the Cy Young Award every year. I can’t wait for more of the same.

  114. blake January 30th, 2012 at 7:42 am

    “Had Hughes and Joba been anywhere else they would be competing for the Cy Young Award every year. I can’t wait for more of the same.”

    And Kennedy would be a middle reliever by now had he stayed.

  115. Villa Nova-Ya January 30th, 2012 at 7:46 am

    Rich in NJ -

    With which pitchers? Whose careers do you want to risk?

    I’m glad the Yankees decided to err on the side of caution with the next “batch.”

    But of course, since no matter what the Yankees do it’s wrong, it doesn’t matter.

  116. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 7:46 am

    It seems that some people think that the range of blog comments should range from: are the Yankees good, very good, or great.

    If the Yankees thought that Hughes and Joba were well-coached, Eiland would probably still be here.

    Results matter. When the Yankees can point to some high end starters they have developed there will be the consensus love that some here reflexively seek.

  117. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 7:52 am

    Villa

    Risk? You missed the point. Of the original 3, only Hughes has a shot in the rotation, and even that remains to be seen. No one is arguing that pitchers should be rushed, to the contrary, the point is that there should be sufficient patience and open rotation slots.

    “But of course, since no matter what the Yankees do it’s wrong, it doesn’t matter.’

    I never said anything close, but sure make something up.

  118. blake January 30th, 2012 at 7:55 am

    Here is my issue…..I don’t think there is a sufficient sample of pitching prospects that the Yankees have had over the last 10 years that ever had a chance to be elite to make a judgement right now.

    For a long time they just weren’t getting the talent required to develop good starters…..now they are so we will have to see. Over the last three years….they’ve had three such guys that I can remember…..Hughes, Joba, Kennedy …..all three are in the bigs. That’s not a giant failure …..even if not what we hoped for.

    I think the jury is.still out

  119. dogface January 30th, 2012 at 7:58 am

    If the Yankees thought that Hughes and Joba were well-coached, Eiland would probably still be here

    ============================

    Blaming Eiland for where Hughes and Chanmberlain are in their respective careers is ridiculous.

  120. austinmac January 30th, 2012 at 8:00 am

    Rich,

    You don’t seem to think Rothschild can coach either. I am no shrinking violet when I disagree with them, but in don’t feel it necessary to repeat it multiple times per day for days on end. As I recall Eiland left after personal issues arose.

    Repeating oneself does not make what one says more true. It simply is tiresome to the audience.

  121. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 8:02 am

    “Blaming Eiland for where Hughes and Chanmberlain are in their respective careers is ridiculous.”

    It’s only one part of the equation but it was really a response to this:

    “No, Blake, it is another day of blaming the Yankee coaching staff for all pitching failures. “

  122. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 8:03 am

    “You don’t seem to think Rothschild can coach either”

    Based on what?

    “Repeating oneself does not make what one says more true. It simply is tiresome to the audience.”

    You do it as much as anyone.

  123. upstate kate January 30th, 2012 at 8:05 am

    is it groundhog day already?

  124. dogface January 30th, 2012 at 8:09 am

    It’s only one part of the equation but it was really a response to this:

    “No, Blake, it is another day of blaming the Yankee coaching staff for all pitching failures. “

    ==================================

    Ah! I see. Well my position has always been that the three most overrated jobs in the world in terms of actual impact are hitting coach, pitching coach, and Prime Minister of Canada. I certainly won’t blame coaching for anything that’s happened with Kennedy, Hughes and Chamberlain, as the decisions that most affected their respective careers were made at the executive level. Some have gone well (IPK helping to land Granderson), some haven’t (Joba rules, etc.). Also can’t dismiss injuries and how much impact they’ve had on the careers of Chamberlain and Hughes.

  125. Villa Nova-Ya January 30th, 2012 at 8:16 am

    Yes, risk.

    And what WAS the point that I missed? You said you think the Yankees should not use 2008 as a reason for not rushing young pitchers to the majors.

    I said, why would they risk doing it again? With which pitchers? Whose career do you want to possibly jeopardize by rushing them?

    And, as for my last comment, it was directed at the general overall commentary on this blog, which definitely runs to the “the Yankees can’t coach, the Yankees can’t develop, the Yankees can’t scout, the Yankees don’t know what they’re doing and are lucky they are where they are” side of the coin.

    And anyone who tries to point out anything different is charged with the crime of not seeing things clearly and wanting the blog to be only positive.

    That is not only not true, but very insulting. It seems like there are an awful lot of people here who like absolutely nothing about the team (except for the numbers in the “win” column).

  126. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 8:18 am

    dogface

    I agree that there are multiple reasons for the results of any outcome, but to me, this discussion has been about: trying objectively assess where the Yankees are in terms of developing starters pitchers v. others who think that any criticism of the Yankees is unfair (to the point where if you post any criticism what you say is grossly distorted).

    So I think coaching (at various levels along the development chain) is one factor, usage decision are a factor, individual player commitment may be a factor, luck may be a factor, etc.

    With Joba and Hughes, in particular, both were promoted to MLB before they ready, put in the pen at points when they probably should have remained stretched out, and in Joba’s case, he has been banished to the pen (despite being a more effective starter than Hughes or AJ’s last two seasons), seemingly yet again, even though, stretching a pitcher out is often beneficial in TJ surgery rehab.

  127. Ys Guy January 30th, 2012 at 8:21 am

    i was just reading joel sherman’s column from yesterday (i think) and saw this;
    “the advanced metrics show only Cano and, to a lesser degree, Mark Teixeira performed well against top pitching last year. (Thanks to Derek Carty at Baseball Prospectus for doing the research.) Conversely, Curtis Granderson, Russell Martin, Nick Swisher, Brett Gardner and Alex Rodriguez struggled significantly against the better arms in the game.”

    i never really knew where to go for this kind of research, but it has always seemed to me that arod fares poorly against top pitching compared to the average. i dont subscribe to bp but does anyone know how arod has done in his career vs. top pitchers as opposed to league average?

  128. MTU January 30th, 2012 at 8:22 am

    Rich-

    Doesn’t Nova count ?

    Are you convinced he will regress ? I’m not. He seems like the real deal to me.

    Even if he does he still has enough of what it takes to be very good IMO.

    He continues to improve.

  129. Tom in N.J. January 30th, 2012 at 8:23 am

    How do you know when a prospect is ready?

  130. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 8:23 am

    “And what WAS the point that I missed? You said you think the Yankees should not use 2008 as a reason for not rushing young pitchers to the majors.”

    Here’s what I said:

    Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 6:53 am
    Pat M’s post offers reasons why the “2008 experiment” should have been tried again rather than abandoned forever.
    __

    I view the experiment as being about opportunity. That, as Pat pointed out, so many things went wrong that the experience was probably a one-off.

    That you think I advocated rushing them is bizarre.

    “That is not only not true, but very insulting. It seems like there are an awful lot of people here who like absolutely nothing about the team (except for the numbers in the “win” column).”

    Here’s what is insulting. Being accused of dissing Rothschild when I didn’t. Being accused of saying the Yankees caused injuries when I didn’t…

  131. upstate kate January 30th, 2012 at 8:26 am

    Joba and Phil may have been promoted before they were ready, but the Yankees needed them at the time. It is not uncommon for teams to have young pitchers start in the bullpen, at least temporarily. David Cone has spoken on this topic before. The Rays did it w/ David Price when he first came up.

    And how can the success of Nova and D-rob be ignored?

  132. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 8:27 am

    MTU

    I said high end starters: (Results matter. When the Yankees can point to some high end starters they have developed there will be the consensus love that some here reflexively seek.)

    If Nova becomes that, great, but most think he projects to be a #3-#4.

    Plus, in some ways the Yankees seem to have treated him like an afterthought. He was exposed to the Rule 5 draft earlier in his career, which offers at least some indication of what they thought of his potential, and was removed from the rotation last season even though he was pitching well.

    I hope he does become more consistent with his slider and surpasses expectations.

  133. MTU January 30th, 2012 at 8:28 am

    Never thought Eiland was anything more than a mediocre PC.

    Now it’s Rothschild’s turn to show us what he can do.

  134. blake January 30th, 2012 at 8:32 am

    The Rays did use Price in the bullpen in 2008…..however the difference is that they out him back in AAA afterwards in 2009 to start again and get ready for that.

    My one criticism of the Yanks and how they’ve handled pitchers is with Joba….I think Hughes has largely been bad luck and some of his own fault to be honest…..but the Yanks really dropped the ball with Joba IMO…..you can’t throw a kid 70 innings in the minors….move them to the pen….then back into the big league rotation the following season and expect a world of success…..it was just unrealistic and extremely short sided…..hopefully they learned from it and if so at least that’s something positive.

  135. Tom in N.J. January 30th, 2012 at 8:32 am

    Rothschild, by teaching Nova that slide-piece, has already accomplished more than Eiland ever did.

  136. MTU January 30th, 2012 at 8:33 am

    Rich-

    I’ll take a good solid #3.

    He’s still learning on the job and I believe he can continue to improve.

    Great makeup. I believe his cieling is higher but we’ll just have to see.

    He has succeeded in overcoming each and every challenge thrown his way.

    Wether he was highly touted or not does not matter to me. He still was signed and developed by the Yankees.

    I’m pulling for him. Sure your are too.

  137. blake January 30th, 2012 at 8:35 am

    A big part of developing “high end” starters is getting high end talent to begin with…..and the Yankees didn’t do that for a long time on the pitching side. Its not exactly easy ti get those guys picking at the bottom of the first round every year…..sure you can and occasionally somebody from a lower pick turns out to be a frontline starter…..but the odds are much lower of that than by drafting high every year.

  138. Best To Ever Do It January 30th, 2012 at 8:36 am

    And how can the success of Nova and D-rob be ignored?

    ————————-

    Not ignored but Drob is a reliever and Nova has to do it again.

  139. Crawdaddy January 30th, 2012 at 8:36 am

    It’s one thing to read or hear it from anti-Yankee sources. However, as a Yankee fan, it does bother me that some Yankee fans feel the Yankee organization can’t develop starting pitching. The only way to put an end to such talk is for the Yankee organization to deliver the goods by developing starting pitchers that can have more than a couple of good seasons.

    It’s time, Cashman has made changes in his minor league pitching coaches as well as his ML pitching coach. Going forward, it’s time to see the fruits of their labor by seeing the likes of Pineda, Nova, Hughes, Banuelos, Bentances or whomever deliver consistent good major league seasons. It might only be a couple of them that make it happen, but that’s all it takes to shut the detractors up.

    This isn’t just about Brian Cashman, but the organization as a whole. It’s time to see the results of what they’ve been doing for the last 6 years and it has to be more than one season from one starter and another season from another starter. They need consistent and competent results over a longer period of time by individual pitchers. When that happens, the noise about not being able to develop starting pitching will go away. It will only stay away as long as good results keep on coming.

  140. MTU January 30th, 2012 at 8:38 am

    The all hands on deck mentality has to stop dead in it’s tracks.

    The idea that a Pitcher’s development or health should be sacrificed to fill a short-term need is foolish IMO. Foolish beyond imagining actually.

    I do not want to see any more of it especially since the Yankees biggest asset is their young pitching.

    No wine before it’s time. I think they are smarter about it now. At least I hope so.

    ;)

  141. upstate kate January 30th, 2012 at 8:38 am

    Blake
    I will agree w/ you on Joba.
    The Rays put Price back in AAA for financial reasons as well as for developmental.

  142. blake January 30th, 2012 at 8:38 am

    We can point to the Rays and say….well Matt Moore was an 8th rounder…..yea he was….but the Rays didn’t teach him to throw 98 with that arm action….29 other teams passed on him too and some luck was involved in him becoming what he is now.

    I just think we need to see how this next wave of arms does first……what have the Yankees learned since Joba and Hughes came through?

  143. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 8:38 am

    “I’m pulling for him. Sure your are too.”

    I’m pulling for everyone who wears a Yankee uniform (unless he was a wife beater or something), which somehow gets lost on some people (not you, MTU).

  144. MTU January 30th, 2012 at 8:45 am

    Rich-

    Fear not. The future in Yankeeland looks very bright IMO.

  145. dogface January 30th, 2012 at 8:45 am

    trying objectively assess where the Yankees are in terms of developing starters pitchers v. others who think that any criticism of the Yankees is unfair

    ============================

    Yeah, OK. I think this is a little like report card day when you bring home five “A’s” and a “D”. All your parents want to talk about is the D. Not saying the Yankees ratio is 5 successes for everyone failure or anything close, but I don’t know that it’s fair to harp on the Hughes/Chamberlain stuff without acknowledging that they’ve had some successes over the course of time too. To take it a step further, let’s also allow for the Yankees apparently learning a little something from past mistakes. They aren’t rushing their high end talent to the bigs in the cases of Banuelos and Bettances, and they are stockpiling enough pitching so as to avoid having to use those guys even cases of emergency.

  146. Crawdaddy January 30th, 2012 at 8:45 am

    Some might have higher standards like Rich, but I will take Pineda and/or Banuelos develop into #2 starters while Nova continues to establish himself as a #3 starter. It would be nice to develop a #1 starter, but in my opinion, there are only about 15 of them in baseball.

  147. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 8:49 am

    At this point, if the Yankees develop two enduring #2s that’s a major, major win in terms of development, Craw.

  148. jacksquat January 30th, 2012 at 8:53 am

    Tom in N.J. January 30th, 2012 at 8:23 am
    How do you know when a prospect is ready?

    Isn’t there a little button that pops out?

  149. MTU January 30th, 2012 at 8:56 am

    Do the Yankees sometimes give up too soon on young starters ?

    It takes patience.

    Very few come out of the wrapping ready to go.

    Setbacks should be expected.

    If Hughes comes up big this year we will have had the perfect example of why you should not give up
    on talent too soon.

    I agree with those who say they seem to be getting smarter in the way they handle their young arms.

    They better be. Otherwise they will compromise a lot of hard work.

  150. jacksquat January 30th, 2012 at 8:57 am

    blake January 30th, 2012 at 7:31 am
    Morning everyone. You guys ready for another day of solving all the Yankees problems?

    I do that all the time, and I send my application for the assistant GM position (I’m willing to start low) to the Yankees every year, even offering to take half the normal salary for the first year, but no reply. Their loss. :)

  151. Crawdaddy January 30th, 2012 at 8:57 am

    Let’s also remember that development into enduring #2 pitchers might not happen over night. Most pitchers don’t develop into such after just 1 or 2 seasons in the bigs. There will be glimpses of brillance and then some setbacks with young starters. It took CC about four seasons to figure it out. So patience is not only needed from the Yankee organization, but also from a demanding fanbase.

  152. MTU January 30th, 2012 at 9:01 am

    new one —->

  153. PacoDooley January 30th, 2012 at 9:01 am

    Crawdaddy January 30th, 2012 at 8:45 am
    Some might have higher standards like Rich, but I will take Pineda and/or Banuelos develop into #2 starters while Nova continues to establish himself as a #3 starter. It would be nice to develop a #1 starter, but in my opinion, there are only about 15 of them in baseball.

    ———————————————————–

    So I suppose the real distinction is between someone being an ‘ace’ versus a #1 starter. The Rangers didn’t have an ace last season, but they obviously had a #1 starter. I am guessing that Pineda will eventually be #1 starter quality, but may or may not be an ace (and regardless, he will be a #2 behind Sabathia).

    Of course, a team like Philadelphia that has 3 aces only has one #1 starter. But Lee, Hammels and Halladay are presumably among those 15 #1 starters…

  154. blake January 30th, 2012 at 9:03 am

    “So patience is not only needed from the Yankee organization, but also from a demanding fanbase.”

    Its a problem…..Yankee fans in general wont sit through the struggles…..they wont allow Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee to be mediocre for 3 or 4 years before they figure things out…..they want Tim Lincecums who come onto the scene ready to be great immediately and that’s just really really rare.

    Ian Kennedy comes up and struggles as a 22 year old and people will quote his “AL east” numbers and say that he sucked and was a 5th starter etc….

  155. Rich in NJ January 30th, 2012 at 9:04 am

    You know what the Yankees need this year? Steps forward. Pineda can’t regress, which probably means using the change more; that will probably be a function of improved command. Same with Nova and the slider. As for Hughes, I hope he is in the rotation to begin the season, if not, then at AAA. If not, I don’t see a road map back to the rotation with the Yankees because he won’t be stretched out.

    Then it’s whether one of Warren, Phelps, Mitchell are the first call up (assuming Hughes isn’t at AAA) if an injury occurs, and then are they viable.

    Then Banuelos/Betances need to be more consistent with the FB command and demonstrate that 2013 is a real possibility.

  156. Ys Guy January 30th, 2012 at 9:08 am

    :arrow”

  157. Ys Guy January 30th, 2012 at 9:09 am

    oops :arrow:

  158. Duh Innings January 30th, 2012 at 9:21 am

    The Yanks banished Montero to Seattle who scored only 556 runs last year.

    http://www.baseball-reference......2011.shtml

    Ichiro is in his walk year and I could see him signing elsewhere.

    Who is protecting Montero? Miguel Olivo the 2011 Ms team leader in HR (19) and RBI (62)? HAHAHAHA. Justin Smoak is the next basher with a whopping 15 HR and 55 RBI.

    How many runs could Montero add to that 556 run total?

    ‘Say Montero had a .330 BA April. What on Earth makes any of you think he will be pitched to when it counts? He won’t be, and any manager with a brain in his head would put Montero on first if first is open. I’d even walk him if it means loading the bases.

    The last player the Yanks traded who became a star everyday hitter was Jay Buhner, and while Buhner helped the Ms beat the Yanks in the ’95 ALDS, he never won anything with Seattle, so whatever. Anyone who wants to tell me the trade came back to bite the Yanks in ’95, please. You weren’t just thrilled the Yanks were back in the postseason for the first time in 14 years? I was. The trades of Drabek and Leiter were far more damaging than the Buhner trade as they could’ve been the Yanks 1-2 for years to come.

    ALL of you who rave about Montero are entirely ignoring the fact that he is now a member of an absolutely wretched hitting team and that could adversely affect him. One thing Montero has going for him is the Ms are so bad a hitting team, he can go for broke. ‘Key is will he? Will he ignore that the rest of the lineup save Ichiro blows and do his thing or will he be like the rest? We’ll see.

    Bottom line is the first sentence of this post and while the Yanks could’ve used Montero for 2012, they are strong enough to win it all without him.

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