A few mid-day notes
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 31, 2012 
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Just a few relatively minor things to put on your radar, if they aren’t there already.
• Joel Sherman reported last night that the Yankees have signed former Red Sox reliever Manny Delcarmen to a minor league deal. It’s little more than a depth move right now, but Delcarmen is just now reaching 30 years old, and he put together a couple of pretty good seasons out of the Boston bullpen. There’s no risk here, just a mildly familiar name invited to big league camp.
• Word out of Chicago is that the Yankees have hired former Cubs GM Jim Hendry to serve as a special assistant. Bruce Levine says it’s a multi-year deal. Obviously the move brings back memories of Kevin Towers serving a similar assistant role two years ago. Maybe Hendry will also stick around for a year and then take a middle-of-the-pack NL West team to the playoffs.
• In the middle of this story out of Toronto is what seems to be an educated guess that the Blue Jays were talking about a trade for Michael Pineda before the Yankees acquired the young right-hander. Apparently the Mariners wanted Brett Lawrie.
I am of the opinion that AJ still has something left to offer to the Yankees.
Here is my back up. He still has flashes of brilliance. If ever those can be harnassed, he might actually put in a good season.
I don’t expect a lot of agreement. I fully understand those who do not agree. However since I am not convinced that he is all through, I maintain my opinion until proven wrong by the only one who can prove me wrong. AJ. (If he is still around the prove me wrong.)
LGY January 31st, 2012 at 1:34 pm
Joba
http://blog.timesunion.com/spo...../9/#2756-3
—
Looks like Joba will make the “other” BSOHL list, “Biggest Silhouette of His Life”.
Montero for Lawrie… yes or no?
Alas, it appears that the Yankees have continued to do business without my critical input. Therefore I guess I’ll just continue to enjoy my life and look forward to the season.
Have a good one y’all. Always remember that opinions voiced from behind a keyboard all have the same intrinsic value, and that’s really kind of the only value they do have!
Be kind to each other.
Joba rocking the mullet?
Do you think the Yankees win the ALDS last year if Montero pinch hits for Martin in crucial situations?
Montero for Lawrie… yes or no?
==========================
Not as the Yankees are presently comprised.
If I needed a 3B and was not convinced that Montero was going to be a catcher, I think I’d probably do it.
Do you think the Yankees win the ALDS last year if Montero pinch hits for Martin in crucial situations?
–
If Montero gets 1 PA from Martin with the bases loaded (believe he came up 2 or 3 times) then they win Game 5.
“Do you think the Yankees win the ALDS last year if Montero pinch hits for Martin in crucial situations?”
They would have improved their chances.
Can we replace Martin because he hit .225 .313 .368 .681 for 80% of the games he played in?
I like the Hendry hire. I would like it more if his last few personnel decisions weren’t disasters.
Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Montero for Lawrie… yes or no?
————–
I’m sorry – are you trying to reach the conclusion that if Yankee fans wouldn’t trade Montero for Lawrie and the Blue Jays wouldn’t trade Lawrie for Pineda then the Yankees shouldn’t have traded Montero for Pineda?
Because if so, please retract your question based on the sheer foolishness of your thesis.
jacksquat January 31st, 2012 at 2:07 pm
LGY January 31st, 2012 at 1:34 pm
Joba
http://blog.timesunion.com/spo…../9/#2756-3
—
Looks like Joba will make the “other” BSOHL list, “Biggest Silhouette of His Life”.
““““““““““““““““`
Wow, Joba looks terrible – I don’t think he has the Wells or Sabathia gift for pitching effectively when way overweight. The boy needs to hit the gym and cut back those calories.
LGY January 31st, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Do you think the Yankees win the ALDS last year if Montero pinch hits for Martin in crucial situations?
—————–
There’s no point asking this question. There are people who are convinced that because Montero’s first name is Jesus that he was, in fact, the second coming.
Tom in N.J. January 31st, 2012 at 2:09 pm
Joba rocking the mullet?
*****************
Is it even possible to rock a mullet?
Yeah, I think it’s kind of getting silly around here.
“I’m sorry – are you trying to reach the conclusion that if Yankee fans wouldn’t trade Montero for Lawrie and the Blue Jays wouldn’t trade Lawrie for Pineda then the Yankees shouldn’t have traded Montero for Pineda?”
I’m merely saying I would rather have a top offensive asset for Montero than Pineda because position players are less fragile and their development curve is more predictable.
“Because if so, please retract your question based on the sheer foolishness of your thesis.”
No point even responding to this.
There’s no point asking this question. There are people who are convinced that because Montero’s first name is Jesus that he was, in fact, the second coming
——-
What do you think Chip?
The next time Cashman is berated for not developing Hughes and Joba, consider both have been out of shape and unprofessional in their care for their bodies. The players must take the responsibility.
Maybe the Dbacks wont be in contention in July this year and the Yanks can at least have A Montero on their team…….
At least Lawrie can field his position competently.
Joba looks like his Dad Harlen….after using Just For Men..
“So you’re saying that if Montero would have been called up earlier they could have been even better?”
I don’t know, Yankees were 10-7 in games he got at least 3 ABs. You tell me?
Data doesn’t seem to suggest it.
“Because as LGY said: “How about Rich wants to get rid of Martin because he isn’t a particularly good MLB player?”
You need LGY to explain why you think like you do?
Rusell Martin had was tied for the 10th highest WAR for catchers in the ML. And tha’s if you generously count Napoli how only had 209 ABs as a catcher.
So are we:
1.) Discounting WAR as irrelevant?
2.) Saying top 3rd is not “particularly good”?
Even if you want to discount defensive, his OPS was in the top half.
You’re spinning your wheels.
“Would a fact-based argument be like you claiming that Bautista was an example of trading an impact player at the time he was traded?”
That wasn’t the question asked. At the time he was traded was not a modifier at the time, and is now irrelevant to what was being discussed at the time.
Man, you are just foaming at the mouth personally invested in this.
“Oh, the guy who called me a Chubby Chaser is the arbitor of nastiness.”
Oh, the fat guy who called me a Chubby Chaser is the arbitor of nastiness.
Fixed.
Chip January 31st, 2012 at 2:21 pm
Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Montero for Lawrie… yes or no?
————–
I’m sorry – are you trying to reach the conclusion that if Yankee fans wouldn’t trade Montero for Lawrie and the Blue Jays wouldn’t trade Lawrie for Pineda then the Yankees shouldn’t have traded Montero for Pineda?
Because if so, please retract your question based on the sheer foolishness of your thesis.
=============================
So is your answer YES or NO?
“Can we replace Martin because he hit .225 .313 .368 .681 for 80% of the games he played in?”
With
At least Lawrie can field his position competently.
===========================
Not sure the evidence exists to support this hypothesis.
I think the Yanks are a lot more responsible for Joba’s issues than Hughes’s. I think a lot of Phil’s troubles are on him…..Joba was never given a fair shake from the development side or from a patience standpoint in the big leagues.
With
–
Canyonero
“Oh, the fat guy who called me a Chubby Chaser is the arbitor of nastiness.”
I’m will no longer spend hours going back and forth over BS with you, but just because I’m half-Polish, it doesn’t entitle me to make Polish jokes to another person who may or may not be Polish as well.
Joba will be fine when he comes back I’m not worried about his weight.
“If Montero gets 1 PA from Martin with the bases loaded (believe he came up 2 or 3 times) then they win Game 5.”
Martin came up once with the bases loaded in game 5.
Call me superficial but I believe Joba’s hair is a for more pressing issue than Whether or not Russell Martin is hurting the team or not.
I mean, it’s like super greasy.
You know Nicks is sitting there thinking to himself ” This guys a pro athlete?”
“Martin came up once with the bases loaded in game 5.”
Montero batted 1.000 in the playoffs!
“I’m will no longer spend hours going back and forth over BS with you,”
One can only hope you really mean it this time, as opposed to the other 8 times you’ve written it.
“but just because I’m half-Polish, it doesn’t entitle me to make Polish jokes to another person who may or may not be Polish as well.”
Typing that and hitting Enter sounded like a good idea to you at the time, eh?
re: the topic at hand. Russell Martin – we all know internet forum defeat when we see it. Why these tactics are still used is inexplicable.
LGY January 31st, 2012 at 2:25 pm
There’s no point asking this question. There are people who are convinced that because Montero’s first name is Jesus that he was, in fact, the second coming
——-
What do you think Chip?
————–
I think Montero might be a very gifted offensive player. That said he might also be Jeff Clement.
I think that, despite what they were saying, the Yankees did not think that he would ever be a viable major league catcher and given that the Yankees did the right thing in moving him for a young starting pitcher with ace potential.
I also think that if the Yankees were convinced in what they were saying publicly about just how tremendous his bat is going to be and were still concerned about his ability to catch, they would have moved him out from behind the plate and seen if there were any other positions that he could adapt to that would have enabled him to stick with the club.
As I have said from the day this trade went down – if you look at what the Yankees said about Montero and how they handled Montero they paint two very different pictures of the player.
Trades, the fair ones anyway, carry risk to both teams.
dogface January 31st, 2012 at 2:28 pm
Chip January 31st, 2012 at 2:21 pm
Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Montero for Lawrie… yes or no?
————–
I’m sorry – are you trying to reach the conclusion that if Yankee fans wouldn’t trade Montero for Lawrie and the Blue Jays wouldn’t trade Lawrie for Pineda then the Yankees shouldn’t have traded Montero for Pineda?
Because if so, please retract your question based on the sheer foolishness of your thesis.
=============================
So is your answer YES or NO?
—————–
My answer is, based on team needs and the potential upside, I would not trade him for Lawrie but I would trade him for Pineda. How’s that?
So it is Russell Martin bashing time again?
You really think a manager, any manager, not just Girardi, is going to pull a veteran C who the pitching staff likes, for a September call-up?
And why would you subject a 21 year old to that pressure?
Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 2:24 pm
“I’m sorry – are you trying to reach the conclusion that if Yankee fans wouldn’t trade Montero for Lawrie and the Blue Jays wouldn’t trade Lawrie for Pineda then the Yankees shouldn’t have traded Montero for Pineda?”
I’m merely saying I would rather have a top offensive asset for Montero than Pineda because position players are less fragile and their development curve is more predictable.
———————-
Yes but when your strength is your offense and your weakness is your pitching then it makes no sense to trade offense for offense and leave your pitching weak. What the Yankees did was trade from their already strong offense to improve their weak pitching giving them a strong offense and strong pitching.
and quite frankly – offense is more readily available and less expensive than pitching in the market.
Plus, the Yanks no longer are forced to carry Montero And 2 catchers, and the DH Slot is now open to rest A-Rod and Jeet. I still favor Matsui over Ibanez for DH. Damon appears to be to expensive.
“One can only hope you really mean it this time, as opposed to the other 8 times you’ve written it.”
So anal.
…
“re: the topic at hand. Russell Martin – we all know internet forum defeat when we see it. ”
So wrong.
Lawrie had 6 errors in 43 games last year, not great, but he made a number of spectacular plays as well. I’d bet over time he will definitely be at least “competent” at third.
Marcum is a good pitcher, but that was a damn good trade by the Jays getting Lawrie for him.
and quite frankly – offense is more readily available and less expensive than pitching in the market.
–
Not true. You couldn’t get a major league quality third baseman in FA this year.
“Yes but when your strength is your offense and your weakness is your pitching then it makes no sense to trade offense for offense and leave your pitching weak. What the Yankees did was trade from their already strong offense to improve their weak pitching giving them a strong offense and strong pitching.”
The have two top near ML ready pitching prospects . They had no other near ML ready hitting prospects.
They traded from weakness and augmented a strength.
“You really think a manager, any manager, not just Girardi, is going to pull a veteran C who the pitching staff likes, for a September call-up?”
Joe Madden started Matt Moore in game 1 of the ALDS after I think one start in the big leagues……I bet he would have if he thought Montero had a better chance to knock a game winning run in.
I was at the telethon on Sunday for Joba’s autograph. I didn’t recognize him at first. His body looked the same but his face looked really bloated. But man, what a really nice guy! Soooo chatty and full of personality!
And why would you subject a 21 year old to that pressure?
–
Because you wanna win the game. I would have pinch hit Montero in the 4th or the 8th for Martin. And maybe for Swisher in the 7th, I forget who we had on the bench that could play OF.
Joe Madden started Matt Moore in game 1 of the ALDS after I think one start in the big leagues……I bet he would have if he thought Montero had a better chance to knock a game winning run in.
–
That is because Joe Maddon is the best manager in baseball. Also about the only guy I can think of that I’d replace Girardi with.
and quite frankly – offense is more readily available and less expensive than pitching in the market
========================================
Lot more younger, cost controlled pitchers changing hands this winter than younger, cost controlled hitters.
- Jerky -
Aramis Ramirez \ 3B FA
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 2:48 pm
and quite frankly – offense is more readily available and less expensive than pitching in the market.
–
Not true. You couldn’t get a major league quality third baseman in FA this year.
——————
Aramis Ramirez
“re: the topic at hand. Russell Martin – we all know internet forum defeat when we see it. ”
“So wrong.”
I’m game:
- Circular line-ups have had no demonstrative positive effect on Yankee postseason success.
- Offensive production from catchers have had no demonstrative positive effect on Yankee postseason success.
- Russell Martin had no demonstrative negative effect on Yankee regular season success, and arguably positive effect on Yankees regular season run differential.
- Statistics often cited in this forum suggest Russell was comfortably above average (top 1/3 on overall production as a ML catcher) and reasonably average as a hitting ML catcher (top 1/2 in OPS) in 2011.
What of the above do you disagree with and why?
I think that’s a reasonable basis for a baseball discussion.
Chip
What does that have to do with the question of pinch hitting with Montero in the ALDS?
- blake -
Starting a young rookie SP and being ready to quick hook ‘em if necessary, does not compare to bringing in a rookie to PH with the bases loaded, late, in an Elimination game.
“Starting a young rookie SP and being ready to quick hook ‘em if necessary, does not compare to bringing in a rookie to PH with the bases loaded, late, in an Elimination game.”
I think it does…..the point though was that Madden wasn’t afraid to roll the dice with his best talent…..
Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 2:48 pm
The have two top near ML ready pitching prospects . They had no other near ML ready hitting prospects.
They traded from weakness and augmented a strength.
———————-
Betances and Banuelos are both at least a year away and that’s assuming either or both of them even make it to the major league level. Pineda is already much more advanced than either one of them at virtually the same age.
Yeah there are rookies, and then there was Montero, and how he was swinging the bat last season and in the playoffs. And then you had Martin swinging from the heels nearly every AB in the ALDS, trying to be a hero. If Montero gets more ABs in that series, the Yankees win, period. I think most managers would have realized that, however Girardi for some reason decided to give him two at bats the entire series.
“- Circular line-ups have had no demonstrative positive effect on Yankee postseason success.”
I haven’t seen a study either way.
” Offensive production from catchers have had no demonstrative positive effect on Yankee postseason success.”
So you parceled out the contributions of the great Yankee catchers and reached this conclusion. Post the data.
“- Russell Martin had no demonstrative negative effect on Yankee regular season success, and arguably positive effect on Yankees regular season run differential.”
The better question is could Montero have had a more positive effect from 2012 on, and would Martin have had a more positive effect with Montero sharing PT..
Aramis Ramirez \ 3B FA
–
34 year old NL busher with no plate discipline. Nope.
“Pineda is already much more advanced than either one of them at virtually the same age.”
He’s about the same age at Betances (actually younger )…..but he’s almost 3 years older than Banuelos
LGY January 31st, 2012 at 2:55 pm
Chip
What does that have to do with the question of pinch hitting with Montero in the ALDS?
————–
Oh, I thought you were asking whether or not I thought this Jesus could walk on water and turn water into wine.
To answer that other question – no. I don’t think one pinch hit appearance would have made much of a difference.
dogface January 31st, 2012 at 2:51 pm
and quite frankly – offense is more readily available and less expensive than pitching in the market
========================================
Lot more younger, cost controlled pitchers changing hands this winter than younger, cost controlled hitters.
—————————————–
Forget young guys some of the older guys as well. The thing is the Yankees have had trouble acquiring arms but the rest of the league hasn’t. So when ppl say it’s hard to get pitchers that’s not true.
“Betances and Banuelos are both at least a year away and that’s assuming either or both of them even make it to the major league level. Pineda is already much more advanced than either one of them at virtually the same age.”
CB posted that Pineda was rushed last season. With development often being non-linear, do we really know that Pineda won’t regress, at least temporarily? Cashman himself has acknowledge the ample risk involved in the trade.
I still see that 8th inning drive of Jeet’s, dying at the wall in Game 5 vs Detroit.
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 2:59 pm
Aramis Ramirez \ 3B FA
–
34 year old NL busher with no plate discipline. Nope.
————-
33 with a .361 OBP and 69 K in 630 at bats.
Not sure you’re thinking of the same guy.
Yankees scored more runs in the postseason than any team.
They effectively gave up less than any other team.
Arguing Joe Maddon would have found some way to better space out the Yankees runs scored is bordering on the hysterical.
And interestingly enough, A-ram has been negative defensively for the past 5 years. So sure, sign him until he is 37! That will solve the Yankees problems
My question is: what are the Yankees plans with Phelps, Warren and Mitchell?
“I still see that 8th inning drive of Jeet’s, dying at the wall in Game 5 vs Detroit.”
Thought that was gone off the bat…..Jones hit one down the line too that had double written all over it that was caught……it just wasn’t meant to be.
Not sure you’re thinking of the same guy.
–
He will be 34 for next season. You’re not getting his age 33 season, it already happened. He swings at 33% of pitches out of the zone. He walks about 7% of the time.
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 2:50 pm
Joe Madden started Matt Moore in game 1 of the ALDS after I think one start in the big leagues……I bet he would have if he thought Montero had a better chance to knock a game winning run in.
?
That is because Joe Maddon is the best manager in baseball. Also about the only guy I can think of that I?d replace Girardi with.
—————————————————————————————
Joe Maddon is without a doubt the best manager in baseball. He would look great in pinstripes.
Girardi and AJ Burnett for Joe Maddon.
Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 3:00 pm
“Betances and Banuelos are both at least a year away and that’s assuming either or both of them even make it to the major league level. Pineda is already much more advanced than either one of them at virtually the same age.”
CB posted that Pineda was rushed last season. With development often being non-linear, do we really know that Pineda won’t regress, at least temporarily? Cashman himself has acknowledge the ample risk involved in the trade.
————-
All trades, all personnel decisions for that matter, carry risk with them. He could have not made the trade and Montero could have shown up to spring training and been run over behind the plate and torn up his knee like Buster Posey.
Is there a chance that Pineda regresses, sure – but there’s just as good a chance that he matures even more.
“CB posted that Pineda was rushed last season. With development often being non-linear, do we really know that Pineda won’t regress, at least temporarily? Cashman himself has acknowledge the ample risk involved in the trade.”
We absolutely don’t.
Jesus Montero regressed in AAA from 2010 to 2011.
It’s possible.
Rich – I’m merely saying I would rather have a top offensive asset for Montero than Pineda because position players are less fragile and their development curve is more predictable.
Do you prefer paying a starting pitcher $100m over 5 years, or a hitter?
“Arguing Joe Maddon would have found some way to better space out the Yankees runs scored is bordering on the hysterical.”
I don’t know about that…..but I bet Madden would have found more than two ABs for Montero in that series.
- blake -
Agree on the “Not meant to be”. I too thought when it left the bat, it was another “Mr November” shot to RF.
Do you prefer paying a starting pitcher $100m over 5 years, or a hitter?
–
The hitter will be 200 million over 10 years, so probably the pitcher.
jerkface – That was not the question.
“Do you prefer paying a starting pitcher $100m over 5 years, or a hitter?”
All things being equal, a hitter.
Your question is flawed then?
Chip
I am talking about what is likely to happen, not what could happen.
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Not sure you’re thinking of the same guy.
–
He will be 34 for next season. You’re not getting his age 33 season, it already happened. He swings at 33% of pitches out of the zone. He walks about 7% of the time.
———-
Last year Adrian Beltre was a FA
This year Aramis Ramirez was a FA
Next year David Wright will be a FA
If I’m a team that needs a 3b – I can get one a lot easier than I can get a young top of the rotation pitcher.
Rich in NJ – So… staying in general terms, wouldn’t it be better to acquire young cost controlled pitchers, and pay hitters?
Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 3:09 pm
Chip
I am talking about what is likely to happen, not what could happen.
—————-
Why is your scenario of Pineda regression and Montero ascension to all time great slugger status any more likely than a possibility of Montero being a good hitter with no position and Pineda continuing to get better as a pitcher?
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 3:07 pm
Do you prefer paying a starting pitcher $100m over 5 years, or a hitter?
–
The hitter will be 200 million over 10 years, so probably the pitcher.
————-
There have been a grand total of 4 contracts given out that have eclipsed 200 mil – two to Alex, one to Pujols and one to Prince.
They are the extreme, not the norm.
ID
No, I would prefer the cost-controlled hitter because they are less likely to get hurt. I would rather develop pitchers.
Now, if my farm system was developing more hitters, I might reconsider, but that’s not the Yankees’ situation.
I can get one a lot easier than I can get a young top of the rotation pitcher.
–
None of those players are young hitters, so why are you comparing them to a young top of the rotation pitcher? Its much easier to acquire a young top of the rotation pitcher than it is to acquire a young middle of the order bat. Aram is 34, David Wright will be 30, and Beltre was 32.
You can get similar pitchers to those guys in FA just as easily as you think you can get hitters.
wouldn’t it be better to acquire young cost controlled pitchers, and pay hitters?
–
No, you only get hitters for their decline phase and research has shown that pitchers can peak/perform well at 31. Hitters decline post 26.
“Why is your scenario of Pineda regression and Montero ascension to all time great slugger status any more likely than a possibility of Montero being a good hitter with no position and Pineda continuing to get better as a pitcher?”
I am only talking about the susceptibility to injuries and the predictability of the development curb.
curve
Tom,
That is a good question regarding Warren, Phelps and Mitchell. It seems they should be traded, but I see no indication they have any trade value. Their names have not been mentioned once. Frankly, I wonder if, at their ages, they have value or whether they will end up being on a Rule 5 list in the future.
There have been a grand total of 4 contracts given out that have eclipsed 200 mil – two to Alex, one to Pujols and one to Prince.
–
1. Alex Rodriguez, $275,000,000 (2008-17)
2. Alex Rodriguez, $252,000,000 (2001-10)
3. Albert Pujols, $240,000,000 (2012-21)
4. Prince Fielder, $214,000,000 (2012-20)
5. Derek Jeter, $189,000,000 (2001-10)
6. Joe Mauer, $184,000,000 (2011-18)
7. Mark Teixeira, $180,000,000 (2009-16)
8. CC Sabathia, $161,000,000 (2009-15)
9. Manny Ramirez, $160,000,000 (2001-08)
. . Matt Kemp, $160,000,000 (2012-19)
11. Troy Tulowitzki, $157,750,000 (2011-20)
12. Adrian Gonzalez, $154,000,000 (2012-18)
13. Miguel Cabrera, $152,300,000 (2008-15)
14. Carl Crawford, $142,000,000 (2011-17)
15. Todd Helton, $141,500,000 (2003-11)
16. Johan Santana, $137,500,000 (2008-13)
17. Alfonso Soriano, $136,000,000 (2007-14)
18. Vernon Wells, $126,000,000 (2008-14)
. . . Barry Zito, $126,000,000 (2007-13)
. . . Jayson Werth, $126,000,000 (2011-17)
21. Ryan Howard, $125,000,000 (2012-16)
22. CC Sabathia, $122,000,000 (2012-16)
23. Mike Hampton, $121,000,000 (2001-08)
24. Jason Giambi, $120,000,000 (2002-08)
. . . Matt Holliday, $120,000,000 (2010-16)
. . . Cliff Lee, $120,000,000 (2011-15)
Top ~25 highest paid players, all over 100 mil, and only 5 pitchers
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 3:12 pm
I can get one a lot easier than I can get a young top of the rotation pitcher.
–
None of those players are young hitters, so why are you comparing them to a young top of the rotation pitcher? Its much easier to acquire a young top of the rotation pitcher than it is to acquire a young middle of the order bat. Aram is 34, David Wright will be 30, and Beltre was 32.
You can get similar pitchers to those guys in FA just as easily as you think you can get hitters.
—————————-
No you really can’t. This year the best pitchers available were both guys in their mid 30s. One who has only been a starter for 2 years and one who has regressed over the last few years. By contrast a first ballot hall of famer in his late prime and a tremendous slugger just entering his prime were also both free agents.
Other than Madden using Moore, partly b/c he was running out of pitching options, who are all these smart managers that would put a September call up in to PH w/ the game on the line? Given that a great hitter doesn’t get a hit even half of the time, why would you subject a young kid to that pressure?
It was hyperbole used to point out that hitters will get paid more in FA than pitchers because MOST pitchers have to deal with 3-5 year contracts (or worse!) due to the instability of pitching. Where as teams are willing to shell out bigger deals for hitters.
I think any young pitcher can regress…..but unless Pineda takes a step back with command I wouldn’t expect him to. His FIP and xFIP and K rate etc actually suggest he pitched better than his ERA showed.
“I haven’t seen a study either way.”
“OK, you got me, Chip,”
“I’m will no longer spend hours going back and forth over BS with you,”
“So you parceled out the contributions of the great Yankee catchers and reached this conclusion. Post the data.”
Joe Girardi had 23 PA in 1998 compated to Posada’s 29.
Girardi had 21 PA in 1999 to Posada’s 23, a PS in which his OPS was .626?
In 2000, Posada’s OPS was .645.
In the wildcard, steroids and post-steriods eras, there is no correlation. If you’d like to try to prove your point by going to the late 70s and the 50′s, I’d wholeheartedly enjoy seeing you try.
“I’m will no longer spend hours going back and forth over BS with you,”
“The better question is could Montero have had a more positive effect from 2012 on, and would Martin have had a more positive effect with Montero sharing PT..”
No, it is not. Because Jesus Montero is no longer a Yankees, and unless you’re a utter blithering idiot, you SHOULD remember of the context of this discussion is “but Martin should still be replaced.”
And oh yeah…
“I’m will no longer spend hours going back and forth over BS with you,”
Come July 31, I’m looking at renting Ichiro.
why would you subject a young kid to that pressure?
–
Why wouldn’t you? I don’t understand this argument. You have on one hand, a hungry kid that has wanted to be in the big leagues and make his mark who has thus far shown no fear in facing MLB pitching. He took a cy young candidate 20 rows deep with a platoon disadvantage. On the other hand you have a worn down catcher whose offensive approach looks very bad. One has been hitting well (and infact got 2 hits in the playoffs in an elimination game whose first AB was with the bases loaded in a 4-1 game).
Whats to be scared of?
Top ~25 highest paid players, all over 100 mil, and only 5 pitchers
——————
That’s because elite pitching is a lot more rare and doesn’t often hit the free agent market.
“Other than Madden using Moore, partly b/c he was running out of pitching options, who are all these smart managers that would put a September call up in to PH w/ the game on the line? Given that a great hitter doesn’t get a hit even half of the time, why would you subject a young kid to that pressure?”
With one out.
In the 4th inning.
“OK, you got me, Chip,”
I was referring to the Yankees during a specific timeframe. Sheesh. I thought that was obvious.
You’re so intoxicating, stuckey. I can’t help myself.
Kate,
But Madden wasn’t running out of options….he coukd have started Niemann or Davis in that game ….but chose Moore because he thought he gave then a better chance to win. I get your point…..but I do like how he thinks unconventionally and isn’t afraid to buck trends.
Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 3:14 pm
“Why is your scenario of Pineda regression and Montero ascension to all time great slugger status any more likely than a possibility of Montero being a good hitter with no position and Pineda continuing to get better as a pitcher?”
I am only talking about the susceptibility to injuries and the predictability of the development curb.
————————-
Well if you predict Montero to be a catcher than I would suggest that his risk of injury is just as high if not higher than that of any pitcher.
Forget the beating that a catcher takes from foul balls or being run down at the plate and take a look at how the wear and tear of catching has eroded Joe Mauer who, like Montero, is considered very big for the position.
‘Come July 31, I’m looking at renting Ichiro.”
Much rather rent Ethier
Given that a great hitter doesn’t get a hit even half of the time, why would you subject a young kid to that pressure?
=====================================
Same reason Jack McKeon subjected 20 year old Miguel Cabrera to it. Same reason Mike Scoscia subjected 20 year Francisco Rodriguez to it. They were the best options available at the time.
That’s because elite pitching is a lot more rare and doesn’t often hit the free agent market.
–
Elite hitting is just as rare and less likely to reach the FA market.
“Well if you predict Montero to be a catcher than I would suggest that his risk of injury is just as high if not higher than that of any pitcher.”
Is there evidence for that? Maybe over a longer time horizon, but short-term, meaning, five years?
i find the yankees much more boring since cashman traded montero.
i really don’t like the team cashman is putting together.
cano and montero hitting 3-4 for the next 5years was going to be fun.
just wait until pineda goes through the learning curve it will take to learn that change everyone ,including cashman, says he needs to learn.
i figure pineda to triple A is 50/50 by the all star break as he tries to master this pitch.
if he does go to triple a it will probably be after red sox lefties bash him at yankee stadium with his feeble attempts at tricking them with a still- in-progress change.
Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 3:25 pm
“Well if you predict Montero to be a catcher than I would suggest that his risk of injury is just as high if not higher than that of any pitcher.”
Is there evidence for that? Maybe over a longer time horizon, but short-term, meaning, five years?
—————–
Sure there is – go take a look at how many catchers missed time due to concussions last year. Also you might want to google “Buster Posey + broken leg” in your spare time.
“I don’t know about that…..but I bet Madden would have found more than two ABs for Montero in that series.”
Joe Maddon found LOTS of ABs for Longoria, Joyce, Zobrist and Damon and it didn’t go him any good.
- blake-
Speed and defense make me go with Ichiro.
I agree that Joe Madden is a good manager, and I agree he is willing to be unconventional. It is much easier to be that way when you are a small market team and have a relatively young team.
And it is certainly possible that Montero could have gotten a hit. But to suggest the series was lost b/c Montero was not put in to PH seems very unlikely to me.
Oh goodie, I was hoping we could talk about Montero some more. Maybe everyone can repeat themselves fifty more times.
On to RAB.
Rich – Now, if my farm system was developing more hitters, I might reconsider, but that’s not the Yankees’ situation.
Not my question.
No, I would prefer the cost-controlled hitter because they are less likely to get hurt. I would rather develop pitchers.
This makes absolutely no sense. “Developed pitchers” are the young cost controlled pitchers I’m talking about.
The point I’m getting at is that you are better off paying for your hitters, and trading young hitting talent for young pitching talent… because pitcher contracts are considerably more risky. Everything jerkface has quoted in regards to contracts only illuminates this point.
But to suggest the series was lost b/c Montero was not put in to PH seems very unlikely to me.
–
It wasn’t won by allowing Martin and Swisher to bat in crucial situations.
jerkface – Why did you quote the newly found age of decline for batters, but not pitchers? Hint: It’s not 31.
It wasn’t won by allowing Martin and Swisher to bat in crucial situations.
The only true statement you can make regarding the handling of Montero last postseason.
Any statement as to Montero’s complete lack of influence positive or negative to the outcome of the series is completely meaningless.
“Sure there is – go take a look at how many catchers missed time due to concussions last year. Also you might want to google “Buster Posey + broken leg” in your spare time.”
But first you have to look at how many pitchers lost time due to injuries. I think it’s far more.
“I was referring to the Yankees during a specific timeframe. Sheesh. I thought that was obvious.”
As am I.
“You’re so intoxicating, stuckey. I can’t help myself.”
I know that.
But YOU should show some intelligence, learn from that and stop posting “this is the last time I respond to you” like its relevant or anyone but you cares.
And just so I’m clear, your retort has now been boiled down to “I was referring to the Yankees during a specific timeframe.”
That doesn’t answer the question why Russell Martin should STILL be replaced.
Rich in NJ – But first you have to look at how many pitchers lost time due to injuries. I think it’s far more.
There are also more pitchers than catchers in baseball. On a whole, who has longer careers? Pitchers.
At this point I’m kind of hoping that Cashman trades Banuelos and Gardner for Eric Hinske just to change the narrative.
Martin, the guy with a track record regarded a Bum, and Mr Cup-Of-Coffee Montero with his 2 AB’s already a Playoff Star around here. BONG
ID
“Not my question.”
I answered it.
“This makes absolutely no sense. “Developed pitchers” are the young cost controlled pitchers I’m talking about.”
TB’s develop pretty quickly and are cost-controlled. Tell them it doesn’t make any sense. That should be something the Yankees can do as well. So if they can, it makes perfect sense.
“The point I’m getting at is that you are better off paying for your hitters, and trading young hitting talent for young pitching talent… because pitcher contracts are considerably more risky. Everything jerkface has quoted in regards to contracts only illuminates this point.”
I think that makes no sense. If you want more developed pitchers, trade your young pitching talent for them. That way the risk is mitigated.
I’ve always wanted David Wright to play for the Yankees lol
Does anyone think that would actually work? Genuinely curious to hear ideas. Get creative..by all means, find a way to trade Tex and let someone from our current IF play 1B, that’s my plan (I’m kidding….. maybe).
“There are also more pitchers than catchers in baseball. On a whole, who has longer careers? Pitchers.”
ID
Well, pitchers can go from being a #1-#2 to being a #4-#5 or to the pen, so we are not necessarily comparing apples to apples.
The larger point is that there are so few impact hitters who MAY stay at catcher, that it makes very little sense to move them for anyone.
“But YOU should show some intelligence, learn from that and stop posting “this is the last time I respond to you” like its relevant or anyone but you cares.”
stuckey lecturing someone about showing intelligence. Too funny.
Or…….. pitchers can go to the Fat Farm.
“stuckey lecturing someone”
No.
You.
Shame Spencer January 31st, 2012 at 3:38 pm
I’ve always wanted David Wright to play for the Yankees lol
Does anyone think that would actually work? Genuinely curious to hear ideas. Get creative..by all means, find a way to trade Tex and let someone from our current IF play 1B, that’s my plan (I’m kidding….. maybe).
—————
Just wait for the Mets to decline his option next year, sign him as a FA and move Alex to DH.
The Yankees lost 3 games in the 2011 ALDS.
In those 3 games, Russell Martin was 0-9 with 1 BB.
You sure pinch hitting with Montero at times wouldn’t have made a difference or a manager with even an ounce of creativity like Joe Maddon wouldn’t have made a difference?
Let’s also keep in mind two of those three losses came at YS.
The place where Jesus Montero can flick his wrists and deposit a ball over the RF fence.
“Joe Maddon found LOTS of ABs for Longoria, Joyce, Zobrist and Damon and it didn’t go him any good.”
What does that have to do with anything…..you’re losing your touch.
Why would the Mets decline Wright’s option?
Haven’t been around in a long time, lucky to have found this site again.
Weird off season. A month ago I was psyched & now, not so much
Still love my team! but I’m not in as much anticipation. Kind of wished they went with keeping CC then getting YU to fill the last spot & ultimately keeping Montero. Kind of bummed. I feel like I’m in morning. 
I’m still into the game as a whole , individual players & matchups in general (maybe even moreso)…. But then again, I am presently obsessed with the knicks!!! So, there’s that…
Regarding the PS & whether Montero instead of Martin could have helped the yankees win. The problem was deeper than this. It was Girardi’s inability to mess with the lineup. I still believe that batting Posada 5th (between A-Rod & Tex) wins them the series. Batting him after the black hole of A-rod/Tex/UnSwisherlisious makes him a leadoff hitter instead of giving him a chance to hit with RISP.
I was so looking forward to watching Montero mash in Yankee stadium
… I need to get over this. 
One-Year Deal Likely For Edwin Jackson
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [January 31 at 2:45pm CST]
2:45pm: The Red Sox offered a one-year deal in the $5-6MM range and remain in the hunt for Jackson, Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe reports.
MLBTR
Why on earth would Jackson do that
“No.
You.”
So even funnier.
Why on earth would Jackson do that
–
He doesnt want to play for the Orioles? Doesn’t he know they’re headed in the right direction?
“Why would the Mets decline Wright’s option?”
Because letting Reyes walk for nothing wasn’t dumb enough?
Rich -
My last comment on Montero.
Just try to look at this logically:
If the Yankees were sure that Montero really is this generational type hitter like Pujols, Piazza, Manny or Cabrera but were concerned about his ability to stick behind the plate wouldn’t they have at least experimented with him at other positions to see if he could break in as a RF or something? Wouldn’t they have at least explored that option? They didn’t. Why not? Was it maybe because they knew that the minute they took him out from behind the plate he became less valuable as a trade commodity?
The Yankees protected this kid at every turn, when they called him up it was to feast on other September call-ups as a DH. Austin Romine was used behind the plate more than Montero was – why? So that ML scouts didn’t see him back there and judge him to be a bad ML catcher? Maybe.
I have said it at least a dozen different times, if you look at how the Yankees hyped Montero and how they used Montero the two don’t fit together. Montero was never going to be a fixture here – when I hear Cashman talking about “Trading the next Mike Piazza” all I flash to is when they were talking about Ruben Rivera and calling him a right handed Mickey Mantle.
“Why on earth would Jackson do that”
If you join the RS staff, you are automatically an ace. Duh.
If Im Jackson Im signing a one year deal for somebody in the NL central or west…..not Fenway park for 5 million bucks
blake January 31st, 2012 at 3:52 pm
“Why would the Mets decline Wright’s option?”
Because letting Reyes walk for nothing wasn’t dumb enough?
———————
Well same reason they didn’t trade Reyes but just let him walk. They need him to stay with the team this year to sell seats but they can’t afford to keep him.
I see the Yanks signed Jim Hendrey. Finally they have somebody who knows how to over pay a Soriano.
The Yankees protected this kid at every turn, when they called him up it was to feast on other September call-ups as a DH
–
Too bad he faced mostly tough veterans
blake January 31st, 2012 at 3:53 pm
If Im Jackson Im signing a one year deal for somebody in the NL central or west…..not Fenway park for 5 million bucks
——————
Why not? He slots in as a 4th starter and if he pitches well in the AL East there will be a lot more action on him. Possibly even from the Red Sox next year.
Well same reason they didn’t trade Reyes but just let him walk. They need him to stay with the team this year to sell seats but they can’t afford to keep him
——-
Then they’ll just pick up his option after the season and trade him over the winter.
“Well same reason they didn’t trade Reyes but just let him walk. They need him to stay with the team this year to sell seats but they can’t afford to keep him.”
I would hope Mets fans are smart enough to realize that that organization needs rebuilt from the ground up….and that keeping Wright around does nothing for them. They should trade him by July 31 to the highest bidder and get on with it……
Why not? He slots in as a 4th starter and if he pitches well in the AL East there will be a lot more action on him. Possibly even from the Red Sox next year.
–
He is a pitcher and he has a 4 year offer from the Orioles? His being picky is limiting his market.
Chip
Two reasons (this is opinion to those who may not realize it, not you Chip):
1) The overprioritize pitching and want to get under the $189m threshold. They want another high end starter, and don’t trust their development process. So rather than spend on Hamels/Cain, and since Felix was off limits, they trade their most marketable asset for what they believe is the best and cheapest young starter they could find.
2) He’s too slow for RF and Tex’s contract can’t be moved. He needs more development to catch, but Girardi hates catchers that don’t remind him of himself.
I think they messed up. We’ll see.
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 3:54 pm
The Yankees protected this kid at every turn, when they called him up it was to feast on other September call-ups as a DH
–
Too bad he faced mostly tough veterans
————-
If by “mostly tough veterans” you mean five at bats against John Lester then you are correct. He had a ton of at bats against guys who I’ve never heard of and the guys I have heard of were, like Lester, LHP – which makes sense since he was being used as a RH DH.
just out of curiosity, was Girardi more unconventional when he managed the Marlins?
Edwin Jackson would suck for the Red Sox except for when he pitches against the Yankees.
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 3:56 pm
Why not? He slots in as a 4th starter and if he pitches well in the AL East there will be a lot more action on him. Possibly even from the Red Sox next year.
–
He is a pitcher and he has a 4 year offer from the Orioles? His being picky is limiting his market.
————
Why would you want to pitch for 4 years for a team that is going to be in last place all four of those years?
All the Montero-Pineda trade haters tackle the trade on the assumption that Montero was going to be a great hitter. He may turn out to be, but the fact is he’s had only one season in the minors where he had an OPS in excess of .900, and he strikes out way more than he walks. Montero had a great 69 PAs in the majors. But it was only 69 PAs. Plus the position question.
Pineda has actually succeeded in the majors, and at the age of 21.
blake January 31st, 2012 at 3:56 pm
“Well same reason they didn’t trade Reyes but just let him walk. They need him to stay with the team this year to sell seats but they can’t afford to keep him.”
I would hope Mets fans are smart enough to realize that that organization needs rebuilt from the ground up….and that keeping Wright around does nothing for them. They should trade him by July 31 to the highest bidder and get on with it……
———————-
The fact that they’re Met fans in the first place should tell you all you need to know about their overall intelligence.
And if they had dealt Reyes then I would agree that this is the tactic that Sandy would take – but they didn’t deal Reyes so it makes me wonder why they would deal Wright.
50/50 Pineda is in AAA by the all-star break? C’mon. I wasn’t a huge fan of the trade, but that’s ridiculous.
I think comparing Uncle Joe and Maddon is a bit unfair. I genuinely think playing in NY is different than on other clubs, so I’d think the same goes for managing in NY. The expectations on Maddon vs Girardi are completely different, aren’t they?
Re: Wright. The Mets cannot keep him. The entire Jose Reyes debacle showcased that. I dunno that I think Alex is so bad in the field I’d want him at DH though… I know a lot of people on here are ready to cast him off in that role but I thought his defense was more than satisfactory after he came back from injury last year.
He had a ton of at bats against guys who I’ve never heard o
–
Well because you havent heard of them doesn’t mean they aren’t good.
50 of his PAs came against
Jon Lester, Dan Haren, Jeremy Hellickson, Jim Johnson, Ricky Romero, Ervin Santana, Jered Weaver , Alfredo Aceves , Zach Britton, Brett Cecil, John Lackey, Matt Moore, David Price, Al Alburquerque, Daniel Bard, Brad Bergesen, Juan Cruz, Scott Downs, Kyle Farnsworth, Kevin Gregg, Jesse Litsch, Franklin Morales, Dan Wheeler, Ryan Perry, Brandon League, Jason Vargas
rich – If you want more developed pitchers, trade your young pitching talent for them. That way the risk is mitigated.
I think you’ve gone and talked yourself around in a circle on this one. Your Matt Moore TB example to the previous statement shows me that you can’t even follow this conversation I thought we were having. You agreed that young pitchers are more risky than young hitters, but then you say should trade cheaper pitchers for more expensive ones…
Enough talking in circles with you for one day. Please learn how to stick to a point.
,And if they had dealt Reyes then I would agree that this is the tactic that Sandy would take – but they didn’t deal Reyes so it makes me wonder why they would deal Wright.”
Maybe because they see how.dumb it was to not trade Reyes….and then not even try to sign him……he left for nothing.
Why would you want to pitch for 4 years for a team that is going to be in last place all four of those years?
–
Well if I were a pitcher, it would be because I’m greedy and want guaranteed money, plus crab cakes. Sentimentally I’d love to play for the Yankees or a winning team, but how many players get their wish of getting PAID and playing for the team they want?
i figure pineda to triple A is 50/50 by the all star break as he tries to master this pitch.
Bahahaha… as randy’s opinion flies directly out the window.
All those years in the game did you no good sir. No good at all.
If you want to play for a contender….and get a nice long term contract…..then you should try to be better than Edwin Jackson.
i remember hearing cashman asked if the yankees thought montero could play OF and he was very quick to say he wouldn’t have the range to play the OF, he said it completely dismissively, to me it sounded like they were quite sure about it. this was on francessa last year.
i think the yankees are convinced that montero is going to be a career dh (at least for the Yankees, anyway) and that was probably the driving force in trading him.
blake January 31st, 2012 at 4:03 pm
,And if they had dealt Reyes then I would agree that this is the tactic that Sandy would take – but they didn’t deal Reyes so it makes me wonder why they would deal Wright.”
Maybe because they see how.dumb it was to not trade Reyes….and then not even try to sign him……he left for nothing.
—————————
Of all the stupid sh*t the Mets have done that might rank up there with the Bobby Bonilla contract. They could’ve easily gotten 4-5 very solid AAA players for Reyes before the All-Star break. If they don’t deal Wright and do what they did with Jose, which was float a nowhere close offer, than they should move him before he slumps at all this season lol.
upstate kate – Very good question…. you know what they say about great minds
ID
“You agreed that young pitchers are more risky than young hitters, but then you say should trade cheaper pitchers for more expensive ones…”
For more developed ones.
I said: “I think that makes no sense. If you want more developed pitchers, trade your young pitching talent for them. That way the risk is mitigated.”
” you can’t even follow this conversation I thought we were having.”
All I can do is post stuff. I can’t make you read it correctly.
“Enough talking in circles with you for one day. Please learn how to stick to a point.”
I love this!!!
Rich in NJ – Love it all you want, you’ve not made much sense today.
blake January 31st, 2012 at 4:03 pm
,And if they had dealt Reyes then I would agree that this is the tactic that Sandy would take – but they didn’t deal Reyes so it makes me wonder why they would deal Wright.”
Maybe because they see how.dumb it was to not trade Reyes….and then not even try to sign him……he left for nothing.
——————
Alderson’s not there trying to acquire assets though – he’s there trying to pare the payroll either so the Wilpons can keep the team or to make it easier to sell.
It’s no small surprise to me that the faith based watchers are the most steadfast in their beliefs no matter how many holes are poked in them.
ID
You do know that Pineda isn’t expensive, right. As I have posted before, if he or a similar pitcher was acquired for two Killer B’s, I would be fine with it.
If that can’t be done, do nothing.
blake January 31st, 2012 at 4:07 pm
If you want to play for a contender….and get a nice long term contract…..then you should try to be better than Edwin Jackson.
—————
Or as I call him – AJ Burnett II
Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:09 pm
Rich in NJ – Love it all you want, you’ve not made much sense today.
_
Somehow I think you have a bias and love to project.
Jon Lester, Dan Haren, Jeremy Hellickson, Jim Johnson, Ricky Romero, Ervin Santana, Jered Weaver , Alfredo Aceves , Zach Britton, Brett Cecil, John Lackey, Matt Moore, David Price, Al Alburquerque, Daniel Bard, Brad Bergesen, Juan Cruz, Scott Downs, Kyle Farnsworth, Kevin Gregg, Jesse Litsch, Franklin Morales, Dan Wheeler, Ryan Perry, Brandon League, Jason Vargas
–
Jesus hit 0.341 0.420 0.591 1.011 vs these pitchers
Rich in NJ – You do know (well, obviously you don’t) that I have not been talking about Montero or pineda at all this entire time, but you can’t separate that from your nonsensical hatred of that trade.
Montero is phenomenally slow. I can’t imagine him in the OF.
Jesus hit 0.341 0.420 0.591 1.011 vs these pitchers
I bet I could find a 37 at bat sample where a significantly worse batter hit better than that.
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 4:13 pm
Jon Lester, Dan Haren, Jeremy Hellickson, Jim Johnson, Ricky Romero, Ervin Santana, Jered Weaver , Alfredo Aceves , Zach Britton, Brett Cecil, John Lackey, Matt Moore, David Price, Al Alburquerque, Daniel Bard, Brad Bergesen, Juan Cruz, Scott Downs, Kyle Farnsworth, Kevin Gregg, Jesse Litsch, Franklin Morales, Dan Wheeler, Ryan Perry, Brandon League, Jason Vargas
–
Jesus hit 0.341 0.420 0.591 1.011 vs these pitchers
—————–
A) I had forgotten the Yankees played the Angels with him up
B) Shane Spencer was more productive in more at bats during his September call up.
Call me ignorant, but i dunno who this brett lawrie even is… He must be something spectacular though if toronton refused to trade him for a #2 20 something year old starting pitcher.
B) Shane Spencer was more productive in more at bats during his September call up.
–
He was also 20 years older and with none of the scouting track record or projectability of Montero
*sarcasm*
This trade is gonna be buhner all over again
Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:13 pm
Rich in NJ – You do know (well, obviously you don’t) that I have not been talking about Montero or pineda at all this entire time, but you can’t separate that from your nonsensical hatred of that trade.
__
Pineda is just one example. Latos would be another. There are young pitchers that can be acquired that are more developed but still cheap.
That’s the problem with discussing things in such vague generalities.
I bet I could find a 37 at bat sample where a significantly worse batter hit better than that.
–
Cervelli once hit 1/1/4/5 in a single PA. It was 50 PAs, not 37 btw. The point is merely refuting the notion that Montero succeeded as he did because he was facing scrubs.
Call me ignorant, but i dunno who this brett lawrie even is… He must be something spectacular though if toronton refused to trade him for a #2 20 something year old starting pitcher.
–
Young toronto third baseman that came up strong last year for 150 PA. Wasnt spectacular in the minors until he hit the PCL (hitters league) but did really well when he got called up. Suffered some injuries. Lots of questions about his defense and sticking at third.
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 4:16 pm
B) Shane Spencer was more productive in more at bats during his September call up.
–
He was also 20 years older and with none of the scouting track record or projectability of Montero
—————————————————
You got to love the Kevin Maas and Shane Spencer comps when ppl talk about Jesus.
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 4:16 pm
B) Shane Spencer was more productive in more at bats during his September call up.
–
He was also 20 years older and with none of the scouting track record or projectability of Montero
———————
Shane Spencer was 40 when he was called up?
And what track record – Montero had a good, not great, good year at Scranton. It’s not like he was beating down the doors to get up here.
I wish he had been. I wish that when he didn’t make the club out of spring training he went to AAA and started demolishing inferior pitching that he made it impossible for the Yankees to keep him down there. He didn’t do that. He posted a nice slash line with a lot of strike outs and sub par defense.
Pineda’s not going to the minors unless he has a complete meltdown. Unless he loses his fastball and slider that’s not happening.
Folks, show a little respect for Shane Spencer. Without him I wouldn’t have this fantastic handle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?N.....TAwYgQOn6o
#11 pineda?
Rich in NJ – What I was trying to get to by staying vague (and avoiding bias) is that holding onto the young cheap hitters is backwards. Because they are the more stable commodity with a safer baseline, they are easier to replace.
Stocking up on young controlled pitching talent at any stage of development is the surest way to 1) end up with homegrown pitchers, and b) end up with extra young pitching prospects to trade away for players like a JUpton coming out of their rookie contracts.
“What does that have to do with anything….”
Because it ignores the seductive charm of hindsight.
Maddon lost 3 games in a row (2 at home) but a total of 4 runs. You don’t think we could look back and find a moment or two he’d like back?
How about with a 3-0 lead when Shields hit a batter, gave up 2 singles, hit another, gave up another single, threw a wild pitch, and Madden stuck with him? Letting him give up 2 more runs that inning and 2 more an inning later?
“The point is merely refuting the notion that Montero succeeded as he did because he was facing scrubs.”
Montero had a good 69 PAs. That’s good, but it’s not “succeeding”. And I think everyone is aware he faced some excellent pitchers. Heck, even I can remember that far back.
Shane Spencer was 40 when he was called up?
And what track record
–
You can’t be this willfully ignorant, chip. It took Shane Spencer 8 years to make the majors. He was drafted when he was 18 and was never a top prospect and didnt even make it to AA for 6 years.
Jesus Montero is a goddamn PHENOM with a track record of every scout ever saying the dude will hit. He backed this up with destroying the lower minors and being one of the top hitters in the upper minors while being SEVERELY UNDER AGE FOR THE LEAGUE.
Thats the track record, which Montero has and Shane Spencer does not have. No one gives a crap about Jorge Vazquez because he is in the minor leagues as a 28 year old. So his performance doesnt matter as much as Montero’s performance as a 20-21 year old EVEN if Jorge’s is better.
Most prospects don’t light up AAA in the second half like Montero did at age 20. Most don’t come up to the majors at 21 and OPS .900.
In the last 20 years only 10 players age 19-21 had an OPS over .900 in the majors in ANY amount of playing time.
Folks, show a little respect for Shane Spencer. Without him I wouldn’t have this fantastic handle.
–
It is a great handle.
Montero’s minor league success is greatly exaggerated. He played really well in AA, like most future hitting prospects do… and played 2 half-seasons at AAA while moping around that he wanted to be in the majors. His K rate peaked in his second season in AAA (supposed to be the other way around no?) and his power was magically neutralized in the first half of 2011 by AAA scrubs.
Best To Ever Do It January 31st, 2012 at 4:23 pm
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 4:16 pm
B) Shane Spencer was more productive in more at bats during his September call up.
–
He was also 20 years older and with none of the scouting track record or projectability of Montero
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You got to love the Kevin Maas and Shane Spencer comps when ppl talk about Jesus.
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I’m not comparing Montero to Maas or Spencer – I’m just saying that 69 productive at bats doesn’t mean that Montero can walk on water.
Ignore Montero’s stats and just watch him hit. His ability at the plate is easily observable to anyone that watches baseball on a regular basis. He will be a perennial all-star and top 5 MVP candidate.
Most don’t come up to the majors at 21 and OPS .900.
Can you please stop calling out sample sizes on other people and then constantly harping on this like it’s a relevant sample?
Can you please stop calling out sample sizes on other people and then constantly harping on this like it’s a relevant sample?
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Well theres only 10 players that did it in the last 10 years, that has significance. It doesn’t guarantee Montero anything but its a good start.
Last 20 years.
Thanks, Jerkface. So is yours
ID
Bias, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. Vagueness is often a slippery slope to a very poor discussion.
How do you replace a young impact hitter who isn’t a 1Bman when so few reach the market? For example, which ones have moved this offseason?
Stocking up with homegrown pitchers, or trading quantity of less developed homegrown pitchers for more developed but still cheap young pitchers, makes sense. I keep making that point.
Trading impact young bats (again, non-1Bmen) that you can’t replace is not the way to stock up on young pitchers because, as I said, it is very hard to replace those impact bats.
He will be a perennial all-star and top 5 MVP candidate.
Fool-hardy at best. Anyone making a projection like that without ~1000 ML at-bats behind a batter is nuts or willfully ignorant of the adjustments necessary to become that type of player.
Face….You do know that most baseball people think Montero is a backup catcher at best……In a few years he could be discribed as the emergency backstop…..Great trade for the Yanks
Fool-hardy at best. Anyone making a projection like that without ~1000 ML at-bats behind a batter is nuts or willfully ignorant of the adjustments necessary to become that type of player.
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Not really a projection, more like a prediction. Everyone sees a player they like and makes a prediction.. for example I saw Robbie Cano before he came up and predicted he would be a very good player. On the other hand, when I watched Chris Paul in college I thought he was crap.
Face….You do know that most baseball people think Montero is a backup catcher at best……In a few years he could be discribed as the emergency backstop…..Great trade for the Yanks
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Are these the same baseball people that evaluated Napoli’s catching abilities?
“Ignore Montero’s stats and just watch him hit. His ability at the plate is easily observable to anyone that watches baseball on a regular basis. He will be a perennial all-star and top 5 MVP candidate.”
Patrick, you are just assuming what you want to prove. Montero may turn out to be a perennial all-star and top 5 MVP candidate, but the likelihood is if he were going to be that good he would have done better than he has so far. By Montero’s age Cabrera had already been an all-star twice and a top 5 MVP candidate once.
“….You do know that most baseball people think Montero is a backup catcher at best……”
Pat
80 games at C and 80 games at DH with a .900 OPS? That’s worth more than almost every catcher playing more games.
Rich in NJ – A single season example of “which ones have moved’ means little to me. Players of all shapes and sizes are traded all the time, every year. People have been trying this same nonsense with the FA market all offseason, claiming there “just won’t be any FA batters to sign”… it’s completely detached from reality.
Trading impact young bats (again, non-1Bmen) that you can’t replace is not the way to stock up on young pitchers because, as I said, it is very hard to replace those impact bats.
This is where you lose me.
It’s not hard to replace them at all, especially one that can’t play the field. Batters are the largest most plentiful commodity in baseball. Batters that don’t have a defined future position do not need to be held on to. There is little to no reason to hold onto a young player if you project him as a DH for your club… especially if you can sell someone on the fact that he still might be able to play the field. Your personal evaluations of the players aside, the writing has been on the wall for this Montero trade for over a year now.
It may not be how you would run your franchise… but it is how the most successful franchise in the history of baseball is running theirs. I defer to their expertise.
“80 games at C and 80 games at DH with a .900 OPS? That’s worth more than almost every catcher playing more games.”
Rich, let me know when Montero gets to 80 games at catcher in the majors.
Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 4:28 pm
Most prospects don’t light up AAA in the second half like Montero did at age 20. Most don’t come up to the majors at 21 and OPS .900.
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Well yes, but you’re not comparing him to most prospects. You’re saying he’s going to be “elite” if you’re going to tout him as elite then you can’t in the next breath talk about him like he’s just another prospect.
At his age Miguel Cabrera was hitting 33 homeruns in the majors.
A year younger than him Alex hit 36 bombs, drove in 123 runs and won a batting title
Pujols hit 37 – OPS’ed 1.013 for the season
Joe Mauer spent ages 19 and 20 in the minors and was so off the charts good that he forced his way to the majors after 29 at bats in AAA.
Manny Ramirez – dominated the minors at Montero’s ages
So if you want to say that Montero is going to be an elite player like the guys I just mentioned, then you can’t defend him by saying that he’s just doing what everyone else does.
Sure there are lots of guys who didn’t get their first taste of the bigs until they were older
People knocking Montero’s hitting ability after he’s no longer a Yankee prospect. Why am I not surprised? Where were these criticisms when he was still with the team? There’s a reason why most scouts and talent evaluators see Montero as one of the best hitter in the minor leagues. Stop trying to rationalize this trade. Montero is legitimately an impact middle of the order hitter. Those guys are not common.
New post
patrick – No one is knocking his hitting ability, you are literally arguing with no one.
you’re right… stop trying to rationalize this trade, montero is no longer a yankee. deal with that reality.
Patrick – I’m surprised so many people who know baseball around here won’t concede Montero had a sweet swing.
He really did have an incredible swing…..so level, held back in the zone… I’m by no means a professional scout but I feel like if I can notice it other people would as well.
Patrick-
I think there were plenty people who hadn’t bought into the “Montero is going to be phenomenal” line. But before he was traded, what was the point of arguing it? We all hoped he would turn out to be great. I know I predicted early on that he wasn’t going to be a catcher for the Yanks, that his DH opportunity was limited by ARod and that Montero was bound to be traded.
patrick – No one is knocking his hitting ability, you are literally arguing with no one.
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As you tend to do, you are changing the argument after you’ve been proven wrong.
“Montero’s minor league success is greatly exaggerated.”
“Montero had a good 69 PAs. That’s good, but it’s not “succeeding””
“B) Shane Spencer was more productive in more at bats during his September call up.”
These statements and several others serve the purpose of casting doubt on Montero’s track record and potential ceiling. We never would have heard this stuff when Montero was still a Yankee. Just goes to show you how biased some people are towards Yankee prospects.
if you’re going to tout him as elite then you can’t in the next breath talk about him like he’s just another prospect.
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Grady Sizemore, Hanley Ramirez are 2 examples of players that had great scouting reports and not great minor league numbers who did well in the majors.
Montero should have been in the majors after his AA performance if you’re looking at Joe Mauer. He hit outhit Mauer in AA in a harder park. A year younger too.
ID
” A single season example of “which ones have moved’ means little to me.… it’s completely detached from reality.”
Name the young, impact bat non-1Bmen that have moved in your favored time horizon.
“It’s not hard to replace them at all, especially one that can’t play the field.”
That’s your opinion.
“It may not be how you would run your franchise… but it is how the most successful franchise in the history of baseball is running theirs. I defer to their expertise.”
That franchise spends a ton more than every other team, and has reaped the benefits of keeping young impact bats for 15+ years.