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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Talking about the future with Mason Williams

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 31, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

At a table near the back of a White Plains diner isn’t exactly the place you expect to find the future center fielder of the New York Yankees, but that’s exactly where I met Mason Williams. And there are plenty of people who truly believe he’s moving closer and closer to filling one of baseball’s most storied positions.

Make no mistake about it, Williams is still very young, with a very long way to go, and it’s ridiculous to put too much hope and expectation into a kid like that. But for a 20-year-old with considerable prospect hype, Williams made a terrific first impression as a guy who doesn’t expect anything to come too quickly or too easily. He seemed comfortable — confident but still humble — as he looked ahead to this season and all that comes next.

You had to be happy with last year, so what are you working on now? Are there things you’re trying to improve? Are you just trying to build on last year?

There are definitely things I’m trying to improve on, but also I’m definitely trying to build from last year. I don’t want to try to get complacent or anything like that. I feel like I definitely have a lot to work on, but last year definitely helps me with my confidence a little more, saying that I have the ability to go out there and play, do what I can do and stay within yourself.

Are there specific parts of your game that you need to improve, or do you think that you’ve just got to get older and better and add some experience?

I have to be smarter with the game. I have to learn the little things. There are definitely things I want to work on, but right now, where I am right now today, I just feel like I have to be smarter about the game.

You look at that Staten Island team you were with last year, you had some legitimate guys throughout the lineup, and the same could be true in Charleston this year. Do you guys notice the young core of players building in the lower levels? Do you start thinking about all of you staying together?

Yes. Absolutely. I remember after we won the championship last year, we were in the locker room showering up after the game and I was talking to Cito (Culver). I was like, man, I know we can do this next year in Charleston. If we have the same team, the same players there’s no one that can beat us out there. I just feel like our confidence is there. Earlier in Staten Island, we actually had the record with maybe 14 or 15 wins in a row. I feel like that set us up for success the rest of the season, having that confidence, basically playing almost all the teams that we play and beating them all, knowing there wasn’t another team in there that was better than us.

Do you start thinking about bringing that core to Tampa, and then Trenton and all the way to New York?

I think about it, yeah, but as of right now, we’re all in early spring training. Spring training is about to come up, and we’re all here. Ever since I’ve been drafted, I’ve been playing with the same group of guys, so I feel like our camaraderie between the eight or nine of the young ones I was drafted with, they’re great. I’ve been with them in instructs, spring training, early spring training, extended spring training, in the Dominican. Everywhere I’ve gone, they’ve been with me.

You see the Core Four and what that meant in New York. Do you start to see the impact of keeping a core group of players together throughout?

It’s like I said, not really growing up, but growing up as a Yankee with them. We’ve been together, and it’s all we know, and it’s all I know being with my guys. I want to be with them at all times and play with them as much as I can, because I feel comfortable with them.

The Yankees have Slade Heathcott, and they have Ravel Santana coming up behind you. There’s legitimate center field talent all around you. What does that do for you? It’s that a challenge? Motivation?

Absolutely. I guess you could say we’re fighting for a spot. It’s definitely motivation. I go in there everyday thinking, no one’s better than me. Try to have confidence every day, and let’s try to get better every single day and learn something every single day and see where it takes me.

How much do you pay attention to these prospect lists?

Not really. I’ll hear about it, but I’ll never go online or wherever they go to look it up. If I hear about it, it’s good to know that I’m up there, but I’ve still got to play the game. I’ve still got to do the little things right.

It’s got to be reassuring, because I have to think that when you’re in Staten Island or doing this early spring training work, you feel like you’re kind of out there, a long way from anything, with nobody paying attention.

It is, but like I said, I’ve still got a long way in my eyes. I still feel like there’s a lot to learn. I have a lot to still get developed. I feel like a lot of us young guys do, so I’m trying to take baby steps right now and work every day and try to see where it takes me.

What are you doing at this point in the offseason?

We’re doing early spring training for five weeks, Monday through Friday. It’s basically the same stuff we do in spring training, but no games in the afternoons. It’s definitely a spring training environment right now.

You’re heading for full-season ball for the first time, playing 140 games or whatever it’s going to be. Does that feel like another challenge?

Last year I was in extended spring training and then I went to Staten Island. I actually played in, I think, 134 games last year so, to my eyes, that’s almost a full season, and I didn’t really get fatigued later in the season and in the playoffs like I thought I would. I thought maybe my bat would feel heavier and whatnot, but I actually felt real good in the playoffs. I wasn’t fatigued. I think the playoffs is where I excelled more than in the season. I felt good.

Photo from my good friend Mike Ashmore

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284 Responses to “Talking about the future with Mason Williams”

  1. Shame Spencer January 31st, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Why are you doing this, Chad? Why?

    Why are you going to make me love this kid?

    I don’t consider myself a hugger by any stretch of the imagination. All I care about is being obnoxious and by extension: winning now. I never cared about Ajax.. I didn’t cry over Kennedy.. I didn’t even flinch when Hughes’ name was brought into trade talks… but I had no idea how much I cared about Jesus Montero until they traded him. I don’t want to love Mason Williams. I don’t want to love his name (too late), or his skill set/potential, or his attitude (“I go in there everyday thinking, no one’s better than me”). And now you’re making me love him, Chad. Stop making me love him.

    Don’t you have anything better to do in the off season than torture me, Chad? Aren’t Chad’s Girls available? Take them out to Applebees or something but my god man stop interviewing prospects and making me like them!!

    Saboteur!!

  2. jacksquat January 31st, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Did you tell him he needs to be ready by 2014? ;)

  3. Patrick January 31st, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    Nice interview Chad. My favorite part, “I go in there everyday thinking, no one’s better than me.”

    That’s the mindset of a great player (or great )

  4. Patrick January 31st, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    That’s the mindset of a great player (or great )

    Meant to say in the parentheses or great (insert your profession)

  5. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    The mindset of a great player certainly isn’t “i should be in the majors” and then moping around AAA for half a season… 2 seasons in a row…

  6. Chip January 31st, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    The mindset of a great player certainly isn’t “i should be in the majors” and then moping around AAA for half a season… 2 seasons in a row…
    —————-

    Agreed – and I think this is part of the reason he’s not a Yankee anymore.

  7. Shame Spencer January 31st, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    ^ This isn’t speculative at all?

  8. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    Patrick, you are just assuming what you want to prove. Montero may turn out to be a perennial all-star and top 5 MVP candidate, but the likelihood is if he were going to be that good he would have done better than he has so far. By Montero’s age Cabrera had already been an all-star twice and a top 5 MVP candidate once.

    ———————–

    You can’t just compare what Miggy and Montero have done by age because Cabrera got called to the big leagues the second the Marlins felt his bat was major league ready. Also, Cabrera earned that top 5 MVP candidate at 22. That’s equivalent to the 2012 major league season for Montero, so you can’t count that.

    Montero’s bat was major league ready at 19 but the Yanks forced him to toil away in AAA for two years instead of unleashing him on the AL. Miggy got the call at 20 after 69 games at AA.

  9. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    patrick – I’m a firm believer that a large part of the reason Montero was moved was for reasons other than just the hitting ability and defensive limitations we argue about every day.

    There is too much behind closed doors that we do not know that has TONS to do with this great. Player development is not simply “scouts project him to be a great hitter”.

  10. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    ^^ with this great? with this trade. sorry…

  11. Chip January 31st, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    Patrick January 31st, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    People knocking Montero’s hitting ability after he’s no longer a Yankee prospect. Why am I not surprised? Where were these criticisms when he was still with the team? There’s a reason why most scouts and talent evaluators see Montero as one of the best hitter in the minor leagues. Stop trying to rationalize this trade. Montero is legitimately an impact middle of the order hitter. Those guys are not common.
    ——————-

    I don’t think there’s anyone who doesn’t think Montero’s going to be a very productive major league hitter. But saying he’s going to be Mike Piazza, Miguel Cabrera, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez type special a) is silly given how many ball players (even top prospects) won’t reach that level of greatness and b) now sounds like traditional Yankee hype given the fact that if the organization believed they had that kind of generational talent on their hands they would have done everything under the sun to find a spot for him – they wouldn’t have traded him.

  12. ron January 31st, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    Something about mason williams name,and the way he looks.

    I just have a funny feeling that he is going to be an absolute star.

  13. Patrick January 31st, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    The mindset of a great player certainly isn’t “i should be in the majors” and then moping around AAA for half a season… 2 seasons in a row…

    Oh nice, an argument that can’t be proven and is based on rumor and conjecture

    How exactly was montero moping around for 2 seasons? That’s idiocy.. I expect better from you

  14. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    In “toiling away” in AAA for 2 years Montero has shown that his power can be greatly limited by scrub pitchers by simply pitching him away… or that he’s too immature to handle his own “hype”.

    If Montero was “bursting down the door” to the majors, he would have. He wasn’t, so he didn’t.

  15. Shame Spencer January 31st, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    patrick – I’m a firm believer that a large part of the reason Montero was moved was for reasons other than just the hitting ability and defensive limitations we argue about every day.
    ——————–

    This falls under the category of things I’d really, really, really like to believe…..

    I’m not being facetious either. I honestly hope all of the negative speculation regarding Montero is true. If it isn’t… well, let me just go back to my happy place.

  16. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    patrick – Sure it can’t be proven, yet he is gone. You have some better explanation as to why he didn’t hit for the first half of AAA 2 years in a row? I’m sure you have some reason that doesn’t involve his hitting ability not being ready for the increase in difficulty…

  17. Shame Spencer January 31st, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    ron January 31st, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    Something about mason williams name,and the way he looks.

    I just have a funny feeling that he is going to be an absolute star.
    ————————-

    DON’T DO IT RON!!!

  18. Wave Your Hat January 31st, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    Chip and ID-

    I’m a big fan of the trade, but I don’t agree that the Yanks traded Montero because he was moping or that he didn’t hit because he was moping. I think “moping” is a common narrative that gets attached to players when they don’t perform as well as expected. but I think it’s probably more descriptive than predictive.

    The Yanks traded Montero because (i) they got a really good, cost-controlled young pitcher who had already experienced major league success, (ii) Montero wasn’t going to get the opportunity to catch for the Yanks, (iii) the Yank rotation for 2012 was suspect and the chances of getting a top pitcher in 2013 were at best dicey, (iv) the Yank offense is going to score a lot of runs with or without him, and (v) ARod and the other vets were going to limit DH opportunities.

    Simple as that.

  19. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    If Montero was “bursting down the door” to the majors, he would have. He wasn’t, so he didn’t.

    ————————

    He busted down the door at age 19 when he destroyed A+ and AA. Then after a couple of bad months in AAA at age 20 he serial killed every AAA pitcher.

    The Yankees are the only team in baseball that would have kept Montero in AAA for 2 years. Some teams would have had him skip AAA entirely.

  20. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    kinda like what shame just said… don’t the montero huggers have to kind of hope that all of the negative press surrounding his maturity and work ethic are true? otherwise isn’t he just another prospect that struggled slightly as he was moved up and wasn’t ready to storm into the major leagues?

    this idea that his bat was major league ready is laughable at best. He k’d at over 20% in AAA last season. If this was some other team’s prospect you’d be killing him for that.

  21. Wave Your Hat January 31st, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    “Montero’s bat was major league ready at 19 but the Yanks forced him to toil away in AAA for two years instead of unleashing him on the AL. Miggy got the call at 20 after 69 games at AA.”

    All I can say, Patrick, is that Montero’s minor league numbers did not show a hitter who would have performed at an elite level in the majors during the years he was in the minors.

  22. exiledintampa January 31st, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    First Rothchild, Next Pinella, now Hendry. It’s like we signed an east coast Cubs team. Seems to me they weren’t too successful in Chicago. So why did we do it? Though I do get why we signed Rothchild.

  23. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    All I can say, Patrick, is that Montero’s minor league numbers did not show a hitter who would have performed at an elite level in the majors during the years he was in the minors.

    OPSing .900 in TRENTON of all places in AA as a 19 year old????

  24. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    While catching and learning to catch <– the thing everyone forgets. Its not like the minor league yankees didnt believe he couldnt catch. He played the most demanding position years younger than everyone in the leagues he was in while hitting either greatly or very well.

  25. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    Wave

    That was me, not Patrick ;)

  26. ron January 31st, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    Shame Spencer :

    That is the first thing i thought when i looked at that picture,and just had a feeling come over me,thats all.

    I have to say what i feel.

  27. Shame Spencer January 31st, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    I wanna go back to a place where all we were mad at was basic science…

    Now I’m mad at everyone who speaks ill of Shane Spencer, I’m mad at Cash all over again about a player I don’t even know would succeed long term, and I’m mad at Chad for making me love Mason Williams.

    Hating science was so much easier.

  28. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    OPSing .900 in TRENTON of all places in AA as a 19 year old????

    Ramiro Pena OPS’d .850 there. At any age he’s a terrible batter, I think that pretty much discounts that point…

  29. PhiltheThrill January 31st, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    We have a core of young guys everyone’s gonna fall in love with. I hope we can minimize the stupid trades while they develop.

  30. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    jerkface – While catching and learning to catch <– the thing everyone forgets.

    No one forgot this, I guess he wasn’t doing any learning in A and AA ball then?

  31. Shame Spencer January 31st, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    You’re gonna love him, ron. You can’t help it. And then when he’s ripped from us, you’ll mourn him.

    …’Tis better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. (I’m still pretty mad at you Chad).

  32. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    Ramiro Pena OPS’d .850 there. At any age he’s a terrible batter, I think that pretty much discounts that point…

    ——————-

    Are you for real?

    You’re talking about SEVEN PAs.

  33. Wave Your Hat January 31st, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    LGY-

    You and Patrick look very similar on my computer screen! :)

  34. PhiltheThrill January 31st, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    Ramiro Pena wasn’t 19. Montero did what no other Yankee Prospect has done through the minor league configuration of pitchers parks, Yankees hitters have to negotiate.

  35. Chip January 31st, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    Patrick January 31st, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    The mindset of a great player certainly isn’t “i should be in the majors” and then moping around AAA for half a season… 2 seasons in a row…

    Oh nice, an argument that can’t be proven and is based on rumor and conjecture

    How exactly was montero moping around for 2 seasons? That’s idiocy.. I expect better from you
    ——————————–

    Well either he wasn’t putting forth his best effort or he’s just not as talented as he’s hyped to be – those are the only reasons I can come up with for the relatively pedestrian AAA numbers.

    Again, he’s supposed to be a superstar, an elite hitter, where is the evidence of that? Why wasn’t he – like the players he’s compared to – beating down the doors so that the Yankees didn’t have any choice but to call him up mid season when Martin got hurt?

    If you want to compare his future abilities to that of the elite then I’m sorry, but it’s fair game to compare his minor league progression to theirs’ as well and in every instance Montero doesn’t match up.

    Rodriguez, Piazza, Manny, Pujols, Cabrera – they all had better numbers in the minors or were already dominating the majors at the same age/service time of Montero.

    Now look – those are 5 first ballot hall of famers; there’s nothing wrong with saying he’s not on their level…hardly anyone is.

  36. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    LGY – No, I just wanted to make someone look it up. :) Isn’t the dishonesty of stats wonderful?

    Montero is not the first batter to OPS .900 in AA and he won’t be the last.

  37. Pat M. January 31st, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    Wave Your Hat….You just nailed it…Good to see you by the way…..Jerkface, Napoli, really is that your best pitch….Ride Naps as long as you can because come July that line will be old and stale…..How about my bet that Pineda has a better season than your 120 million dollar Japanese import ????

  38. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    Montero is not the first batter to OPS .900 in AA and he won’t be the last.

    Well thank god, I was worried that there would be NO MORE elite hitters coming to the majors ever again! This isn’t the point, and its a stupid ‘Well that ends this argument!’ statement you’ve just made.

  39. austinmac January 31st, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    Wave,

    Very well said. Many may disagree with the reasoning, but I do believe those were the Yankees’ thought processes. I see each one as true.

  40. Chip January 31st, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    While catching and learning to catch <– the thing everyone forgets. Its not like the minor league yankees didnt believe he couldnt catch. He played the most demanding position years younger than everyone in the leagues he was in while hitting either greatly or very well.
    ————-

    He was catching as a 19 year old in Trenton and hit just fine. When he got to AAA his offense dropped. There's nothing wrong with that, lots of players have a hard time adjusting to upper minors and the majors in extended time.

    Just because his name is Jesus, doesn't mean he can walk on water either.

  41. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    How about my bet that Pineda has a better season than your 120 million dollar Japanese import ????

    He won’t, and as I have said a million times, I don’t bet money against the Yankees.

  42. Bronx Jeers January 31st, 2012 at 5:04 pm

    Good stuff Chad. Thanks

    Sounds like he’s got his head on straight.

  43. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:04 pm

    .Ride Naps as long as you can because come July that line will be old and stale

    Is this like where you tell us Phil Hughes is going to win 200 games a hundred times?

  44. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    LGY-

    You and Patrick look very similar on my computer screen!

    ———————————

    :D

    I think it’s the topic of conversation. Us Montero Believers have to stick together!

  45. Chip January 31st, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    Wave Your Hat January 31st, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    “Montero’s bat was major league ready at 19 but the Yanks forced him to toil away in AAA for two years instead of unleashing him on the AL. Miggy got the call at 20 after 69 games at AA.”

    All I can say, Patrick, is that Montero’s minor league numbers did not show a hitter who would have performed at an elite level in the majors during the years he was in the minors.
    ————-

    Agreed. They painted the picture of a very good hitter – a Carlos Lee type. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If the Mariners wind up with Carlos Lee in the middle of their lineup for the next 6 years – a guy who hits around 25-30 HR, 100+ RBI with a .280 BA they’ll be very well off.

  46. ron January 31st, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    We don’t know if montero is going to hit 27 hr or 37 hr.

    If he hits 27 hr as a dh or 1b,without playing great defense,and can’t steal a base,his loss will not be felt.

    Now if he hits 30 hr as a catcher,and suprises people with his defense,even a little,and comes close to ops’ing at .900,it might hurt.

    Can’t predict the future.

  47. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    Patrick – Sorry I saw this from the last thread… These statements and several others serve the purpose of casting doubt on Montero’s track record and potential ceiling. We never would have heard this stuff when Montero was still a Yankee. Just goes to show you how biased some people are towards Yankee prospects.

    No, actually they cast light on the actual performance and results of that sweet swing. Not the fairy dust filled version of it you all seem to be remembering.

    He will be a good to great hitter at some point in all likelihood… BUT… He is not there yet, and judging by his strikeout problems last year when AAA pitchers started pitching him away and avoiding him, he is likely just barely ready.

  48. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    http://i.imgur.com/5erP7.jpg

    For Pat M, true believer

  49. Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    repost

    ID

    ” A single season example of “which ones have moved’ means little to me.… it’s completely detached from reality.”

    Name the young, impact bat non-1Bmen that have moved in your favored time horizon.

    “It’s not hard to replace them at all, especially one that can’t play the field.”

    That’s your opinion.

    “It may not be how you would run your franchise… but it is how the most successful franchise in the history of baseball is running theirs. I defer to their expertise.”

    That franchise spends a ton more than [almost] every other team, and has reaped the benefits of keeping young impact bats for 15+ years.

  50. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    Agreed. They painted the picture of a very good hitter – a Carlos Lee type. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If the Mariners wind up with Carlos Lee in the middle of their lineup for the next 6 years – a guy who hits around 25-30 HR, 100+ RBI with a .280 BA they’ll be very well off.

    ———————

    STOP the Carlos Lee talk.

    Lee did not even get to AAA until he was 23 years old.

  51. Stoneburner January 31st, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    ron January 31st, 2012 at 5:07 pm
    We don’t know if montero is going to hit 27 hr or 37 hr.

    If he hits 27 hr as a dh or 1b,without playing great defense,and can’t steal a base,his loss will not be felt.

    Now if he hits 30 hr as a catcher,and suprises people with his defense,even a little,and comes close to ops’ing at .900,it might hurt.

    Can’t predict the future.

    *******

    A very good post. . . .

  52. Pat M. January 31st, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    I still say that both Hughes and Ian Kennedy make a strong run at 200 wins……..I’m glad you remembered this Jerkface

  53. Best To Ever Do It January 31st, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    .You do know that most baseball people think Montero is a backup catcher at best

    ———————————————–

    You’re confusing him with Romine.

  54. Best To Ever Do It January 31st, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    PhiltheThrill January 31st, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    We have a core of young guys everyone’s gonna fall in love with.
    ——————————————-

    Who are you referring too guys like Drob and Nova?

  55. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    Billy Eppler promoted to Assistant GM, hope you like pitching prospects in the bullpen!

  56. Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    “Billy Eppler promoted to Assistant GM, hope you like pitching prospects in the bullpen!”

    Looking for a silverlining, maybe it makes him more desirable to other teams looking for a GM.

  57. Best To Ever Do It January 31st, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    Agreed. They painted the picture of a very good hitter – a Carlos Lee type. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If the Mariners wind up with Carlos Lee in the middle of their lineup for the next 6 years – a guy who hits around 25-30 HR, 100+ RBI with a .280 BA they’ll be very well off.

    ———————

    STOP the Carlos Lee talk.

    Lee did not even get to AAA until he was 23 years old.

    ———————-

    Tell them keep digging they’ll find a comp that sticks sooner or later

  58. Best To Ever Do It January 31st, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    Billy Eppler promoted to Assistant GM, hope you like pitching prospects in the bullpen!

    ——————–

    Pineda now wishes he stayed in Seattle.

  59. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    Rich -
    Name the young, impact bat non-1Bmen that have moved in your favored time horizon.
    Hanley Ramirez is the first name that comes to mind (haha boston, suckers). Here’s a guy who had the same questions about maturity and work ethic… now he’s getting moved off of his position and is possibly already looking back at his best years.

    Now you name the impact-bat prospects that come up with no initial position available to them but DH other than Montero. :)

    That’s your opinion.
    No actually it’s just math. There are physically more hitters than pitchers, with a higher baseline level of talent, less injury risk and better projectable success.

  60. Stoneburner January 31st, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:09 pm
    Agreed. They painted the picture of a very good hitter – a Carlos Lee type. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If the Mariners wind up with Carlos Lee in the middle of their lineup for the next 6 years – a guy who hits around 25-30 HR, 100+ RBI with a .280 BA they’ll be very well off.

    ———————

    STOP the Carlos Lee talk.

    Lee did not even get to AAA until he was 23 years old.

    *******

    What are you talking about – Lee made his mlb debut at 23. . .
    http://www.baseball-reference......ca01.shtml

  61. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    Billy Eppler promoted to Assistant GM, hope you like pitching prospects in the bullpen!

    Is this referring to something specific that he has done in the past? I don’t know squat about Eppler.

  62. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    What are you talking about – Lee made his mlb debut at 23. . . http://www.baseball-reference……ca01.shtml

    ——-

    Yeah, after he started the year at AAA.

  63. Stoneburner January 31st, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    I think the Ms would be happy with a Carlos Lee type production – provided Montero plays a position like Lee did. . . .

  64. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    Is this referring to something specific that he has done in the past? I don’t know squat about Eppler.

    Him and Eiland are the ones that got Joba banished to the pen.

  65. Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    ID

    So one since 2005?

    “Now you name the impact-bat prospects that come up with no initial position available to them but DH other than Montero. ”

    When that fact is established, I will spend the time…

    “No actually it’s just math. There are physically more hitters than pitchers, with a higher baseline level of talent, less injury risk and better projectable success.”

    No, I was responding to the part about not being able to play the field.

    As for more hitters, not impact ones.

  66. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    What are you talking about – Lee made his mlb debut at 23. . .
    Stoneburner – That is… coincidentally… the same year (and first year) he was in AAA. he didn’t stay there long because when he hit AAA he crushed it, he didn’t flop around not hitting for half a season.

  67. Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    Lee’s OPS+ in his age 23 season was 94.

  68. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    he didn’t stay there long because when he hit AAA he crushed it, he didn’t flop around not hitting for half a season.

    Because he spent more time flopping around the low minors.

  69. Stoneburner January 31st, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:23 pm
    What are you talking about – Lee made his mlb debut at 23. . . http://www.baseball-reference&amp;…..ca01.shtml

    ——-

    Yeah, after he started the year at AAA.

    ********

    Dude made his mlb debut when he was 22 – what are you talking about – his birthday is in June 1976 – made his debut in May 99 – he was 22 – he was never 23 in AAA – what are you talking about????

  70. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    . he didn’t stay there long because when he hit AAA he crushed it

    If you take the 2nd half of Montero’s AAA, and his first 25 games in AAA this year, it would look BETTER than Carlos Lee. Montero owned this year hitting .400 in AAA, but didnt get called up.
    If the Yankees called him up like a normal club there would be none of these dumb, mistaken comparisons. Hits better than Mauer in AA but Mauer ‘hit so good he got called up’, and now Carlos Lee has a good 25 games and gets called up while Montero’s good 25 games goes for nothing.

  71. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    It’s funny how people are using the Yankees draconian treatment of Montero against him.

    Most players that destroy AA at age 19 are summoned to the majors right away. Montero is not the type of prospect that often spends any time in AAA.

    Instead of integrating Montero into the team in 2010, they signed Nick Johnson. And of course we saw what happened in 2011 and then in the playoffs when he couldn’t get off the bench.

    Teams like the Marlins on the other hand are like, hey, this kid can really hit. Let’s call him up and go win a WS.

  72. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Stoneburner doesn’t know how baseball ages work. Your age before July X is your age for the season you play in.

  73. Best To Ever Do It January 31st, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    Is this referring to something specific that he has done in the past? I don’t know squat about Eppler.

    Him and Eiland are the ones that got Joba banished to the pen.

    ———————————

    Which made Cashman come out and say “We have starters(Joba and Hughes) that can relieve. Sounds like a good concept take your high end arms and make them relievers.

  74. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    When that fact is established, I will spend the time…

    Rich in NJ – How about you just answer the question rather than initially dodging everything you know you can’t answer without contradicting yourself?

    So one since 2005?

    No, that’s just the one I mentioned, don’t be so blatently obtuse.

    “No actually it’s just math. There are physically more hitters than pitchers, with a higher baseline level of talent, less injury risk and better projectable success.”
    No, I was responding to the part about not being able to play the field.
    As for more hitters, not impact ones.

    Well, what I actually had said was that a player that can’t play the field (like montero) is more easily replaceable… again you are stuck on that player actually being Montero… So you didn’t responded to what was said.

  75. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Dude made his mlb debut when he was 22 – what are you talking about – his birthday is in June 1976 – made his debut in May 99 – he was 22 – he was never 23 in AAA –what are you talking about????

    ——-

    :lol:

  76. Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    “No, that’s just the one I mentioned, don’t be so blatently obtuse.”

    You conveniently misconstrue my comment about trading for more developed but still cheap pitchers, and I’m being obtuse.

    Maybe the point is there aren’t many, unless they have personal issues.

    “Well, what I actually had said was that a player that can’t play the field (like montero) is more easily replaceable… again you are stuck on that player actually being Montero… So you didn’t responded to what was said.”

    Keep saying it. It’s pure speculation.

  77. Stoneburner January 31st, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:31 pm
    Stoneburner doesn’t know how baseball ages work. Your age before July X is your age for the season you play in.

    ***************

    That is not what I am refuting – someone – I think LGY – stated that Lee did not make it AAA until he was 23 – which is wrong – he was in AAA when he was 22 and made his mlb debut when he was 22 – similar type age as Montero.

  78. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    The Mariners were ready to call Montero up right after the Cliff Lee trade.

    Everyone knows his bat was ready well before the Yankees ever gave him a shot.

  79. Wave Your Hat January 31st, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    Mauer demonstrated excellent command of the strike zone in the minors. Montero hasn’t.

    That said, I do think Montero is going to be a very good hitter. I just don’t think he’s the lock for “elite” status that some think. I think that’s as much wishful thinking as anything else.

    Anyway, isn’t it time to move on?

  80. Rich in NJ January 31st, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    Gotta hit the traffic. Ugh.

  81. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    That is not what I am refuting – someone – I think LGY –stated that Lee did not make it AAA until he was 23 –which is wrong – he was in AAA when he was 22 and made his mlb debut when he was 22 – similar type age as Montero.

    ——-

    These are baseball players. We are talking about baseball ages dude.

  82. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    That is not what I am refuting – someone – I think LGY – stated that Lee did not make it AAA until he was 23 – which is wrong – he was in AAA when he was 22 and made his mlb debut when he was 22 – similar type age as Montero.

    His AAA season and MLB debut came in his age 23 season??? You don’t seem to get that.

  83. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    rich in NJ – You conveniently misconstrue my comment about trading for more developed but still cheap pitchers, and I’m being obtuse.
    Which was a response to something I said that you blatantly misconstrued.

    Do I really have to go back and copy/paste our entire exchange today so you realize how you haven’t carried a single thought through from post to post?

  84. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    Mauer demonstrated excellent command of the strike zone in the minors. Montero hasn’t.

    OK and Montero out slugged him by a wide margin while not showing poor discipline.

  85. blake January 31st, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    Eppler and Eiland knew Joba would get hurt if he didn’t go to the pen :|

  86. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    The Mariners were ready to call Montero up right after the Cliff Lee trade.

    They are also a horribly run organization.

  87. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    They are also a horribly run organization.

    Good thing we acquired their player then?

  88. Wave Your Hat January 31st, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    “OK and Montero out slugged him by a wide margin while not showing poor discipline.”

    Struck out twice as often as he walked. That’s not good plate discipline in my book.

  89. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    jerkface – More like the perfect place to sell your over-hyped prospects.

  90. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Over 20% K rate in the minors last year for Montero. You’d be projecting him to be Mark Reynolds if he wasn’t a Yankee prospect.

  91. champ809 January 31st, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    It’s mind boggling the conversations on the board regarding Jesus Montero…

    His age 19 season dwarfs Miggy’s age 19 season…..

    Miggy hi-a – 545pa/ 43 2bs/ 9hrs/ 38walks/85ks .274/.333/.421/.754ops

    Jesus hi-a – 198pa/15 2bs/ 8hrs/ 14walks/26ks .356/.406/.583/.989ops
    AA – 181pa/10 2bs/ 9hrs/ 14wals/21ks .317/.370/.539/.909ops
    combined- 379pa/25 2bs/17hrs/28walks/47ks .337/.389/.562/.951

    Jesus was infinitely better than Miggy at the age of 19….It’s the reason why universally by all scouts that saw him hit not just Yankee scouts he was considered an elite can’t miss hitter and why the comparisons to Manny and Miggy and Frank Thomas have followed him since day 1. He’s a GIFTED hitter that has natural, innate ability with a bat in his hands not a trained hitter that went to a hitting school at age 7 and hits like a robot.

  92. LGY January 31st, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    Over 20% K rate in the minors last year for Montero. You’d be projecting him to be Mark Reynolds if he wasn’t a Yankee prospect.

    ——-

    We would probably be saying let’s trade for him because that team clearly doesn’t appreciate his hitting ability.

  93. champ809 January 31st, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    Montero his more homers in the 20 minutes that he played last season than Joe Mauer hits in 2 months.

  94. ron January 31st, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    Also with montero being so young,his power might just be coming.
    At least a lot more of it.

    That’s what worries me about this trade.

  95. champ809 January 31st, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    it’s amazing. Most on here may have seen Montero hit all of 5 times in their entire lives and are accountants and teachers by profession.

    Most who’ve spent their entire lives in the game of baseball and the identification and procurement of talented people that play this game have the opinion that Jesus Montero is an “ELITE” hitter and projects to be just that at the major league level.

    The cup of coffee that he got with the Yanks last season showed why they’ve formed that opinion.

    His bat speed is unreal….UNREAL and it allows him to let the ball travel so deep that he’s hard to fool on a pitch hence the Pujols like strikeout # throughout his professional career.
    Because he’s not pull biased and has true 70-80 oppo power it leaves pitchers very few quadrants to throw the ball that he can’t reach.

  96. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    With all of the players in the montero/pindea being so young, any amount of “worrying” is at the expense of your own health. Noesi could be Cliff Lee in 6 years. You can’t possibly know how he will handle the first time pitchers adjust to him or have a full scouting report on what he can and can’t hit.

    The first level he repeated he struggled for half the year and struck out at a career high rate. That’s not a player that’s busting down the door to the major leagues.

  97. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    His bat speed is unreal….UNREAL and it allows him to let the ball travel so deep that he’s hard to fool on a pitch hence the Pujols like strikeout # throughout his professional career.

    Also unreal is this statement. Pujols has have a double digit strikeout rate 3 times in his professional career. 3 times, including the minors (and it wasn’t there). Montero just K’d at 20% in 2011 and has not posted a single digit strikeout rate at any level.

    Because he’s not pull biased and has true 70-80 oppo power it leaves pitchers very few quadrants to throw the ball that he can’t reach.
    Except for the first 3 months of the 2011 AAA season where we were told his power disappeared because he was being pitched away more?

  98. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    Most who’ve spent their entire lives in the game of baseball and the identification and procurement of talented people that play this game have the opinion that Jesus Montero is an “ELITE” hitter and projects to be just that at the major league level.

    These same people are employed by the Yankees, and these are the same people that just let The Cashman trade Montero away for a pitcher.

    We know exactly how they valued Montero’s future in the Yankees organization by their own actions.

  99. Against All Odds January 31st, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    ron January 31st, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    Also with montero being so young,his power might just be coming. At least a lot more of it.

    That’s what worries me about this trade.

    ———–

    Exactly he’s not even in his prime yet

  100. Migs January 31st, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    One of the reasons Montero stayed in the minors is so he can work as a catcher. Apparently he hasn’t made enough progress at the position.

    This trade isn’t the disaster it has been made out to be on this forum.

    Pineda is a cost-controlled pitcher, who has the upside of a number 1, and the downside of a number 3. Some people are trying to say he will be a relief pitcher, or simply blow out his arm.

    Even if he gets TJ surgery, at let’s say between the ages of 23-25, he can still provide number 1 or 2 starter value for 6 to 7 years.

    Montero should be a good hitter, but people here are just attached to their babies. It’s not that devastating. He has no position on this team, and Pineda, by most experts, should be a number 2 with a chance of being a number 1.

    Assuming Montero becomes a 280-30-100 at 1b (with below average defense) or DH, and not catcher, while Pineda becomes a number 2 starter or better, I think the Yankees will be happy with the deal.

    Most of the people here are letting their emotions get in the way of their judgement. It usually takes time for pitchers to develop into ace status, so don’t expect Pineda to be an ace next season. As long as he develops an above average change up that he can throw 15-20% of the time in the next couple of seasons, he will become a number 2 starter or better.

    Not to mention the deal includes the potential of Campos (also could be a trade asset).

    There is also the chance that neither player ever reaches their potential…possibly meeting in the middle; a guy who average 280 and around 25 hr, and a pitcher who is a number 3 starter…which can happen. Some of you are acting as if Montero is a definite 300-30-120 guy…it just isn’t the case, especially right now. Most players struggle in their youth. Not everyone is Miguel Cabrera or Albert Pujols. It is more likely that Montero won’t hit his peak until like age 25. The same goes for Pineda. They are going to have to learn and make adjustments in their first couple of seasons.

  101. J. Alfred Prufrock January 31st, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    … and Posada really only showed up in the playoffs against the Twins… and that was 11 at bats. His bat disappeared as the playoffs went on.
    ////

    Jorge Posada’s bat “disappeared” after the ALDS?

    World Series:

    Game 2, a game he didn’t even start, he ph for Molina in the bottom 7th to drive in a run in a 2-1 game.

    Game 3, singled to bring home Damon in to top 7th to open up a 7-4 lead.

    Game 4, broke open a 5-4 game on the road with a 2-out, 2-run single in the top 9th to basically put the game out of reach at 7-4, and help get us home with a chance to clinch.

    In that game, he also sac’d Damon in to open the scoring in the top of the first.

  102. SoS January 31st, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    What is up people!!

    Why are we still talking about this?! Everyone knows Montero got traded becuase he was BORED. Once he gets bored in Seattle, we will just use our “Indian giver card”and snatch him right back.

  103. J. Alfred Prufrock January 31st, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    I don’t blame the kid. I’m bored to death with Girardi and Cashman.

  104. austinmac January 31st, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    Champs809,

    The experts upon whom you base your opinions almost universally praised this trade for the Yankees.

  105. Michelle B. of Yankee Stadium West January 31st, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    I dont know why you guys bother arguing about whether or not Montero is going to be a star..because the truth is, if he becomes a star “elite” hitter, then he will be back in a Yankee uniform eventually.

  106. Ys Guy January 31st, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    you guys still talking about that Mariner’s guy with no glove??? waste of time…

  107. Pat M. January 31st, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    Bias clouds objectivity and judgement……

  108. randy l. January 31st, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    “All the Montero-Pineda trade haters tackle the trade on the assumption that Montero was going to be a great hitter. He may turn out to be, but the fact is he’s had only one season in the minors where he had an OPS in excess of .900, and he strikes out way more than he walks.”

    this is the very kind of poster who when the yankees had montero coming through the system raved about montero and the amazing yankee development system run by that stealth gm brian cashman who had vanquished all the evil tampa faction personnel out of the system.

    the millisecond he’s gone, he’s a piece of crap and the ever wise stealthman has made an astute and accurate evaluation of the devalued yankee property and stole a premier opposing youngster.

    the reality is if montero was a piece of crap why the F— weren’t they developing some more offensive players down there in the minor leagues. if he indeed was severely lacking in the natural ability to catch, why did they waste all the time teaching the klutz to catch ?

    …and if he had some natural ability to catch, why didn’t they teach him the craft of catching?

    if montero indeed sucks as a catcher, who’s fault is that if not the yankees themselves?

    of course , if they just built montero up to create hype to sell him off all along that would be very clever and stealth-like, but then there’s that little part about not developing anyone else to add to the yankees aging nucleus of offensive players.

    the reality is that the yankees probably have jumped the shark on this one.
    i expect montero to have a monster career and catch a whole lot of games for seattle and make cashman look like the fool he is.

  109. theREALkevin January 31st, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    Wanna bet on the Noesi/Cliff Lee prediction? Or is it just to prove the point that “you don’t know”? Because I’d happily bet that Noesi will never be anything close to what Cliff Lee has become.

  110. Ys Guy January 31st, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    “if montero indeed sucks as a catcher, who’s fault is that if not the yankees themselves?”
    =======================================
    …maybe he just sucks…

  111. SoS January 31st, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Wasnt Ajax projected to be the next Torrie Hunter?
    Hughes the next Clemens.
    Nick Johnson the next Mattingly.
    Ruben Rivera the next T4 terminator.

    We are the biggest organization in sports. Could it be that if some of these prospects were on other teams, we would not give them a second look?
    Has anyone noticed that we some of the least hyped prospects have done more than the most hyped? Cano batted around .280 i believe in the minors. Robertson wasnt even looked at. It was Malancon the air to Mo. Its a used car sales business..uhh i mean a quality previously owned that they want to sell you and every other gm out there. Just ask for the Car fax.

  112. randy l. January 31st, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    “you guys still talking about that Mariner’s guy with no glove??? waste of time…”

    yeah, i suppose talking about a pitcher who has a mediocre change for a third pitch is a more productive thing to do.

  113. theREALkevin January 31st, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    I think with Montero, the Yankees sorta always wanted to trade him. That’s why they were hesitant to bring him up. They were worried he would tank in the majors and then his trade value might go down. Then he hit really well when they called him up, this trade possibility came up in the offseason, and they jumped on it.

    I guess they saw him as a player with no position. A DH, or a 1B, and they already have Tex at 1B and didn’t want Montero to DH full time for the next X number of seasons.

    The thing his, could he really not even be as good defensively as say, I don’t know, Jorge Posada? I bet he could be. Because Jorge was never good defensively. He was simply adequate probably. But we’ll see I guess.

  114. Pat M. January 31st, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Randy I…..I think Montero is going to be a golfer with great skills off the tee, but not around the green to have a complete game……But man can he pound the driver

  115. SoS January 31st, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    I think with Montero, the Yankees sorta always wanted to trade him. That’s why they were hesitant to bring him up

    ======

    +1. Posada was one of the worst DH’s in the league last year and they still did not call him up. The DH spot, thanks to ridiculous contracts will be a revolving door with our aging superstars and it looks like we have an abundance of young catchers that are short and talented. It seems like he was bait from the get go.

  116. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    the REALkevin – Way to miss the point I guess… but yes “you can’t know” is exactly what I’m going for…

    At this stage in his career Cliff Lee wasn’t even going to be Cliff Lee. Heck, Lee was basically a failure until he was 30 and then suddenly he’s the best pitcher in baseball.

    Anyone predicting that a 20 year old will have a 15 year HoF career should probably lay off the drugs.

  117. randy l. January 31st, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    “…maybe he just sucks…”

    if he did, then a smart organization wouldn’t have wasted 6 years developing him.

    the reality is he no more sucks that wang sucked with just throwing a sinker.

    when cashman gets a bug up his but about something he will make it a self -fulfilling prophecy if it means burning the player.

  118. randy l. January 31st, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    pat m-

    i think montero will have enough glove to catch much more than you think.

  119. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    Over 20% K rate in the minors last year for Montero. You’d be projecting him to be Mark Reynolds if he wasn’t a Yankee prospect.

    I don’t know where this comes from, but uh no? A guy like Gary Sanchez strikes out as much Mark Reynolds / Mike Stanton did in the minors. Montero is not close to those guys. They were striking out 28% of the time below AA.

  120. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    randy – this is the very kind of poster

    Should have stopped reading right there. When will you learn to stop assuming things about the posters here? These “group think” posts are hilarious to read… but terribly misinformed.

    randy, you don’t keep tabs on people around here as well as you think you do. Most of the people that are OK with Montero being rtaded were OK with is when the Lee trade almost happened. I have personally been calling for him to be traded since the end of the 2009 season and citing tons of reasons why and look… it happened.

    the reality is if montero was a piece of crap why the F— weren’t they developing some more offensive players down there in the minor leagues.
    You think they purposely stopped developing other players because Montero was such a good hitter? What kind of NONSENSE is that?

    if montero indeed sucks as a catcher, who’s fault is that if not the yankees themselves?
    It’s the Yankees fault Montero never learned to play a single position well? I thought Montero is a catcher because he wanted to catch. This is fairly public knowledge. They tried to teach him how to catch because you have to learn how to do “something” on the field. You don’t try to raise up DH prospects. You try to make him catch, if he can’t catch you make him play 1B. They very obviously did not want to keep him at a 1B or DH, and that is a something that you will have to get over some day.

    the reality is that the yankees probably have jumped the shark on this one.
    No, the reality is that you think Montero will be good to great, and the Yankees think they needed more pitching. You also completely ignore and disparage any value they get back in Pineda, even though the rest of the baseball world seems to disagree with you.

    Luckily for us it’s THEIR opinions that make the decisions, not yours.

  121. SoS January 31st, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    Hey Pat! Hows it going with you and the nice ocean front. Your boy still neighbors with me in the IE? Storm won the championship this year. It was the first time I had ever gone to watch them and had a blast. I would like to credit my Yankee vibes for getting them over the top.

  122. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    when randy gets a bug up his but about something he will make it a self -fulfilling prophecy if it means burning the player.

    Fixed that for you, Pineda sends his regards.

  123. yankeefeminista January 31st, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    The mindset of a great player certainly isn’t “i should be in the majors” and then moping around AAA for half a season… 2 seasons in a row…
    _____
    And you know this because? You perpetually ask for evidence to support an argument and then you spew this invented BS. Your smearing of a player just because the Yankees traded him is frankly embarrassing. If Mason gets traded are you going to smear him next? Grow up.

  124. stuckey January 31st, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    “yeah, i suppose talking about a pitcher who has a mediocre change for a third pitch is a more productive thing to do.”

    I think its a reasonable conclusion that the posters doing the most talking about Pineda are those convinced disparaging him somehow makes Montero a better player.

    So actually, Randy, in a round about way, I agree with you.

    The utter lack of productivity from those fixated on Pineda and those fixated on Montero is probably roughly equal, given they’re the same people.

    And let me just congratulate all of you others that have married yourself to Randy’s “everyone knows Montero WILL be a superstar, so the yankees are either stupid of evil for trading him” POV.

    The lack of intellectual curiosity about why the Yankees might have moved someone with his “indicators” is really just astounding.

    Montero has become a political issue. Blind loyalty to a side absence of reason or principle now rules the day.

    Some of you just refuse to consider the Yankees had a legitimate baseball reason.

  125. J. Alfred Prufrock January 31st, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    Anyone predicting that a 20 year old will have a 15 year HoF career should probably lay off the drugs.
    ///

    Just because you have no talent to recognize elite hitting doesn’t mean others suffer from the same lack.

    Weren’t you crowing earlier to Rich in NJ about how Posada did “nothing” after the 2009 ALDS? To support your thesis that a circular lineup is some kind of fiction?

  126. Jerkface January 31st, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    Robertson wasnt even looked at.

    Robertson was a yankee top 20 prospect and very well regarded by those who followed the system. He projected as an elite setup guy… and he reached that projection. Melancon was projected as a future closer because he had better control and ground ball rates than Robertson while still striking players out. And he wasn’t hyped outside of the Yankees. Robertson didnt allow a HR for like 150 minor league innings, he was really good.

  127. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    yankeefem – I’m not smearing him, you grow up. I just don’t care that he was traded considering the returns.

  128. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    prufrock – Just because you have no talent to recognize elite hitting doesn’t mean others suffer from the same lack.

    Just because you think you have this talent does not make it so.

    The men paid to express that talent traded him away. Get over it.

  129. Against All Odds January 31st, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    when cashman gets a bug up his but about something he will make it a self -fulfilling prophecy if it means burning the player.

    —————–

    That’s the thing he can be really stubborn when it comes to certain players.

  130. stuckey January 31st, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    “That’s the thing he can be really stubborn when it comes to certain players.”

    If after the last three weeks here, this can be posted sans self-effacing irony, then I don’t know what to say…

  131. J. Alfred Prufrock January 31st, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    Irreverent Discourse,

    You said Posada did nothing after the ALDS in 2009, to try and sell that he wasn’t an offensive factor.

    Did you miss the World Series?

    You said it to support your argument that Posada wasn’t a great catcher in 2009. Did his bat help them beat Philadelphia, or not?

  132. theREALkevin January 31st, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    ID-

    Agreed. By the way, awesome link in your handle.

  133. yankeefeminista January 31st, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 6:54 pm
    yankeefem – I’m not smearing him, you grow up. I just don’t care that he was traded considering the returns.
    _____
    What does your not caring whether he was traded or not, which is your right, have to do with inventing reasons why he was traded? That to me is juvenile. Stick to the numbers or you are a hypocrite.

  134. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    yankeefem – That was rude, your post set me off. Let me clarify slightly… stuff like “monetero is bored at AAA” doesn’t just materialize out of thin air. When his performance on the field matches the description on the label. 2 seasons in a row after not making the ML roster he didn’t hit for 2 months.

    prufrock – Weren’t you crowing earlier to Rich in NJ about how Posada did “nothing” after the 2009 ALDS? To support your thesis that a circular lineup is some kind of fiction?

    No that’s not actually why that was brought up… but you already know that since you read through this entire blog today, right?

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  136. J. Alfred Prufrock January 31st, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 4:47 pm
    The mindset of a great player certainly isn’t “i should be in the majors” and then moping around AAA for half a season… 2 seasons in a row…
    ////

    If this isn’t trying to smear someone, what is?? Did you witness this “moping around?”

  137. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    yankeefeminista – I’m not “making up” the fact that it was reported by the media that Montero was bored at AAA..

    Then we find out that A-Rod had to call him out and fine him for not going to the cages every day?

    I think the number of circles we have all run around trying to like/dislike this trade… only prove one thing… The baseball reasons don’t add up. There must have been some other reason.

  138. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    Prufrock – Yes I did witness it. Why didn’t you with your eyes so intently focused on the AAA team?

  139. mick January 31st, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    You know, I bought the Montero hype also, having seen him hit in person in ST, but when will the whining in here stop?
    OK, some of you know better, are smarter, have more baseball savvy than others , at least self-proclaim this, but enough already, what are you accomplishing?
    We get the point, move on…or don’t.

  140. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    prufrock – Don’t try to jump in on that conversation and act all high and mighty… if you actually read it you would see that point was already conceded.

    I find it extremely sad that the best you’ve got is to go back 7 hours looking for dirt on someone, and then fail miserably at doing so anyway.

  141. J. Alfred Prufrock January 31st, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    No that’s not actually why that was brought up… but you already know that since you read through this entire blog today, right?
    ///

    And you know by now, that your hand waving of Posada’s contributions AFTER the ALDS is stuff you made up, right?

    The “nothing” that he did after the Twins Series?:

    Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    … and Posada really only showed up in the playoffs against the Twins… and that was 11 at bats. His bat disappeared as the playoffs went on.
    ////

    Jorge Posada’s bat “disappeared” after the ALDS?

    World Series:

    Game 2, a game he didn’t even start, he ph for Molina in the bottom 7th to drive in a run in a 2-1 game.

    Game 3, singled to bring home Damon in to top 7th to open up a 7-4 lead.

    Game 4, broke open a 5-4 game on the road with a 2-out, 2-run single in the top 9th to basically put the game out of reach at 7-4, and help get us home with a chance to clinch.

    In that game, he also sac’d Damon in to open the scoring in the top of the first.

  142. yankeefeminista January 31st, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    ID, I am not rude, but ready a bunch of endless didactic and unsubstantiated BS about a player be it ARod, Jeter, Joba or yes even a traded player like material is in my book rude bordering on sententious to the player and the blog. And we know Montero started slowly in the minors in 2011 after being sent down, but that sure didn’t hurt him in the majors, so guess that theory about his no longer being challenged enough was correct. As for his 2010 milb #’s what specifically are you referring to?

  143. mick January 31st, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    If you’re smarter than Yankee scouts and baseball people, please put in an application to the Yankees and help out, otherwise you are just another fan who wants to say I told you so.

  144. yankeefeminista January 31st, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    *reading* not ready

  145. SoS January 31st, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    jerkface,
    Thanks for the info on Robertson. Did not know that.

    Why isnt anyone giving Peneda any hype for pitching better than the king in the first half of the year. All I heard on baseball tonight is how Seattle has a two headed monster and it starts with Peneda. Hughes made the all stars from having a great first half a couple years back and some still dont want to let him go becuase of the potential. Now if this guy did that in pinstripes you would ask for Cashmans head for trading him. We might have traded away a dh for an Ace. Only time will tell.

  146. J. Alfred Prufrock January 31st, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 7:04 pm
    prufrock – Don’t try to jump in on that conversation and act all high and mighty… if you actually read it you would see that point was already conceded.

    I find it extremely sad that the best you’ve got is to go back 7 hours looking for dirt on someone, and then fail miserably at doing so anyway.
    ///

    You find it sad, that someone would correct you on your BS fragile ego-mind attempts to undercut someone else’s argument by demeaning Jorge Posada?

  147. Migs January 31st, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    actually the baseball reasons do add up.

    although some may not like to hear it, the yankees traded a guy who would be their DH for a guy they view currently as their number 3 starter with the hopes of being a number 1 for them.

    it was a baseball move. the yanks believe montero cannot be good enough at catcher. a lot of scouts believe he cannot be a good catcher, so then you decide on how much you want him behind the plate. the yanks decided to go after the pitcher who is cost-controlled. they traded away a potentially good bat, who they viewed as a dh.

    it was for baseball reasons. the yanks believes they are a better team now, than they were before the trade. and most would agree with them.

  148. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    prufrock – Keep harping on a point no one is making, see if it gets you anywhere.

    Don’t jump in 6 hours late to the show and act like you know everything that was discussed. You clearly didn’t read all the threads or you wouldn’t even be posting this nonsense.

  149. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    You find it sad, that someone would correct you on your BS fragile ego-mind attempts to undercut someone else’s argument by demeaning Jorge Posada?

    No I find you personally sad because you think you have proven something here… when I already told Rich I was wrong. Get a life pal.

  150. J. Alfred Prufrock January 31st, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    ID,

    You were right about one thing: your freudian slip earlier.

    “great”.

    LOL

  151. J. Alfred Prufrock January 31st, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    You tried to pretend Posada didn’t do anything, but stupidly, never considered that some people actually watch the games themselves.

  152. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Prufrock – Excellent. We’re still waiting for you to be right about something I guess…

  153. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    prufrock – You tried to pretend Posada didn’t do anything, but stupidly, never considered that some people actually watch the games themselves.

    You tried to pretend like people care what you think or say, but…

  154. SoS January 31st, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    I just hope Peneda doesnt decide to wear #21.

  155. J. Alfred Prufrock January 31st, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    Like you predicting Montero would be lucky to hit .270 when he got promoted.

    You’re diakka. A shell.

  156. SoS January 31st, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    migs. Are you miggs of old from sd? Havnt seen him post in over a year.

  157. Migs January 31st, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    sos,

    no im not.

    i used to post a long time ago under a generic name (back when pete was here)…then finally had to post something when i saw all the outcries over the trade. i usually just lurk…i dont post often, and when i do, its a few at a time, then gone for a whiles.

    of course, watch me post everyday now.

  158. SoS January 31st, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    Your always welcome to post here migs even in this hostile environment. Your read was pretty similiar to what miggs would have wrote. Sorry for the mixup.
    On second thought, wish Pineda did pick #21 and shut people up with his Ace like appearances.

  159. randy l. January 31st, 2012 at 7:28 pm

    “Your smearing of a player just because the Yankees traded him is frankly embarrassing. If Mason gets traded are you going to smear him next? Grow up.”

    perfectly said.

  160. Irreverent Discourse January 31st, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    randy – to be fair, i started smearing Montero LONG before he was traded. Him being traded has NOTHING to do with my opinion of him today.

    Just more assumptions from the peanut gallery.

    There are some extremely dishonest opinions brought forth here, but you can go check my post history until you are blue in the face. I never wanted Montero to stay.

  161. randy l. January 31st, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    some people here think because i really liked montero i’m not liking pineda.

    what they are not factoring in is i know how hard it is to teach a guy a change up.

    i really get the feeling that most people think a guy with a live arm can be taught anything. it simply does not work that way.

    pineda has everything stacked against him to actually learn a change up. more than likley he’s going to go to what got him to the majors so fast when he gets on the biggest stage in sports which is yankee stadium.

    pineda is not going to be allowed to slowly develop the change at the mlb level because he’s not going to be allowed to lose games while he’s learning it. if the yankees are really serious about teaching him the change they’d start him at triple a for a few months.

    they won’t do it though. and for that reason he will never have a plus change as log as the yankees rush him into a situation that is non conducive to learning something new.

    i think pineda will do all right at first, but i don’t think he’ll throw the change much and will eventually get figured out as time goes on. when teams first see him he’ll be fine. it’s the third and fourth time teams like the red sox are seeing him that is going to be the problem.

    even mariano had problems with the red sox where they have seen him so much.
    pineda should be learning the change at the triple a level unless the yankees want him to plateau at a 4.50 or 5.00 guy.

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