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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Pinch hitting: Robert Tusso

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 07, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Our next Pinch Hitter is 31-year-old Robert Tusso, who grew up a diehard Yankees fan in Chatham, N.J., but spent the past nine years living in Flagstaff, AZ. Robert works as a hydrologist for the U.S. Geological Survey. He studies the Colorado River at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, which means frequent raft trips lasting weeks at a time. “But thanks to satellite radio,” he wrote, “John & Suzyn are with me through every rapid.”

For his post, Robert considered the idea of expanded instant replay in baseball and what that might mean for a game that doesn’t always begin and end at convenient moments.

When baseball’s new collective bargaining agreement was announced in November, most news stories mentioned, in one sentence or less, that instant replay would be expanded to fair/foul calls and “trap” catches. It was almost like a Bridge-to-Nowhere rider on a larger congressional spending bill, snuck in with very little detail. This wasn’t done by accident; baseball is a very tricky game to apply instant replay to, and lots of problematic details need to be ironed out. While most fans would like to see its use expanded, I think that it’ll actually end up being quite limited.

The main problem with reversing calls in baseball is that a play often doesn’t end with an umpire’s ruling; it often continues with the actions taken by every player on the field chosen directly in response to that umpire’s split-second decision. Not every play ends as cleanly as when Jim Joyce denied Armando Galarraga a perfect game by erroneously calling the Indians’ batter safe at first base. Consider the following hypothetical situation from a world with instant replay:

Bottom of the ninth, one out, Granderson at bat with the Yankees down by two. Gardner is on third, Jeter on first. Granderson hits a soft, sinking liner to left. Ellsbury dives, and appears to have trapped it, but the umpire rules “catch.” Gardner tries to tag and score. He collides with Varitek just as the throw gets there. The ump calls “safe” because, from his angle, it didn’t look like Varitek got his glove on Gardner. With Varitek down in a heap, Jeter breaks for third. Varitek throws to Youkilis, who misses the swipe tag on Jeter but gets the call anyway because the ump was out of position. Ballgame over. Or is it?

Girardi bursts from the dugout, demanding a review of the play at third. He is granted one, and the video clearly shows that Jeter was safe. So he is granted third base with two outs. Then Francona bursts from the dugout and demands a review of the play at home. Turns out Varitek did in fact tag Gardner for the third out. Ballgame over. Or is it? Girardi bursts from the dugout and wants a review of Ellsbury’s catch in right field. The video shows it was clearly a trap.

So now what happens now? A provision would have to be in place for awarding runners bases on an overturned trap play (like on a grounds rule double), because not doing so would mean Jeter and Granderson both on first. Say it’s one base; does Gardner automatically score, even though there was an actual play resulting in him being out at home? The rule could be that only forced runners get to advance. But what if Gardner had actually been safe at home, and Girardi opted to not challenge the trap call? Could the Red Sox challenge it, taking an out off the board but pinning Gardner at third? What a mess.

If that situation seems too far-fetched, how about a different situation that actually happened (and prompted calls for instant replay): The play where Jeter “faked” getting hit by a pitch. The one critical (and largely unnoticed) part of that play is that the ball hit off the knob of his bat and went fair. So in taking away the hit by pitch, you couldn’t just rule it a foul ball (and a strike). It would have to be a hit or an out. But neither of those would be right, because the umpire called time before the ball was fielded. And you can’t call “do-over” as if the play never occurred. Sports that employ instant replay just don’t do that. A ruling on a certain play might get overturned, but the play always counts. Are there instances in sports where instant replay grants a “do-over?” I can’t think of any.

There is yet another negative effect of having replay for safe/out calls on the bases: It would mean the end of the “phantom double play.” Managers may abstain from challenging for a while, but eventually it’ll make the difference between a win or a loss, and it will be challenged. And going forward, umpires will have to call it straight. And injuries will skyrocket.

Sure these are oddball scenarios, but with 32 teams playing 162 games a year, crazy stuff is going to happen. And the rules need to be watertight. While the point of instant replay is to enhance the integrity of the game, there are situations where it could end up making the game a complete farce (like pretty much any time there are runners on base). We may have the technology to see if a call was correct or not, but because of the way baseball is played, we may not be able to make much use of it.

Instant replay may not quite be a Bridge-to-Nowhere, but I’m not sure we want to see where it could lead.

Associated Press photo

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787 Responses to “Pinch hitting: Robert Tusso”

  1. Yankee Trader February 7th, 2012 at 9:09 am

    Just put an official in the booth that can review the crucial plays during games and relay their decision quickly down to the lead ump.

  2. Yankee Trader February 7th, 2012 at 9:12 am

    Blake-

    I agree on Damon. Also of the bats available, he’s the only one who can go from 1st to 3rd on a single to RF.

    I believe the A’s have interest. Are there any other AL teams that need a DH-Orioles? I don’t believe there’s a p0tential contending team that can use a DH.

    But playing on a contending team might not be important to him as he has the rings. he needs the hits for a chance at HOF

  3. 86w183 February 7th, 2012 at 9:16 am

    If baseball went to a “challenge” system of replay review the entire play would be reviewed not just a single aspect.

    I agree there should be an official in the booth, but that official should NOT be an umpire. It should be an individual specifically trained for that role. You could have one for each stadium in MLB, so there’s no travel involved.

    I don’t think you can review trap/catch calls if there are runners on base. Too many moving parts to get it right.

  4. 86w183 February 7th, 2012 at 9:17 am

    Can Damon play 3B?

  5. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 9:21 am

    “baseball is a very tricky game to apply instant replay to, and lots of problematic details need to be ironed out.”

    it doesn’t look good if fans can see something on tv that umps don’t.

    add a tv umpire that watches the televised game and have them advise the on field umps when something needs to be looked at

  6. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2012 at 9:26 am

    Madonna playing at Yankee Stadium…??

    Dreams really do come true :D

  7. J. Alfred Prufrock February 7th, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Yankee Trader February 7th, 2012 at 9:09 am
    Just put an official in the booth that can review the crucial plays during games and relay their decision quickly down to the lead ump.
    ///

    Tell it to the Baltimore Ravens.

  8. blake February 7th, 2012 at 9:45 am

    Bottom line…..there is no perfect solution to some of the problems with expanded replay……however would you rather have umpires guessing on where the runners should go or guessing on the actual safe or out play?

    The object should be to get the calls as right as possible and to get closer to perfect…..just because its not perfect doesn’t mean its not better than getting the entire call wrong……getting the call wrong makes everything that happens afterwards wrong as well……so just get the actual call right with replay…..and do the best you can on placing the runners.

    Have an extra umpire in the booth to watch every play and signal down when sokehibg is questionable ……this isn’t rocket science

  9. ant928 February 7th, 2012 at 9:46 am

    Wow! Well written Robert!

  10. blake February 7th, 2012 at 9:48 am

    Latest On Yoenis Cespedes

    By Tim Dierkes [February 7 at 7:42am CST]

    Yoenis Cespedes’ agent Adam Katz joined Jim Duquette and Holden Kushner Sunday on MLB Network Radio. The latest on the Cuban outfielder:

    As of Sunday, Cespedes still had not been unblocked by the Office of Foreign Assets Control, even though he’s a free agent and can negotiate with MLB teams. Katz explained, “I think we can come to terms with no execution of contract and no playing.” Katz is “reasonably confident” Cespedes will be signed in time for camp this year. Cespedes awaits face-to-face meetings with his agents and interested teams, writes Bruce Levine of ESPNChicago.com. The goal is to have Cespedes in big league camp by the third week of February. Industry sources tell Levine bidding could reach $60MM over six years. In January, Cespedes named the Cubs as his most interested suitor.

    MLBTR

    Can’t see any team giving him 60 million….maybe the Marlins would get near that number because of the geography stuff but I think it’ll be more in the 30-40 range.

  11. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 9:49 am

    The Umps are gonna blow calls once inna while. It happens, you sometimes get some added entertainment as Uncle Lou kicks his hat around, and you eventually move on. Putting a guy in the booth to review calls is NOT an end-all be-all solution. How many times have we seen plays reviewed in the NFL or NCAA and they Still get it wrong? The Game is played and officiated by humans, and humans are occasionally gonna make a mistake. Just ask Cashman.

  12. blake February 7th, 2012 at 9:51 am

    .” While the point of instant replay is to enhance the integrity of the game, there are situations where it could end up making the game a complete farce (like pretty much any time there are runners on base).”

    I don’t see how it coukd be any more of a farce than for millions of people to clearly see a call is wrong on TV and then nothing be done about it…….fans are growing more and more intolerant of stuff like that when they see other sports getting the calls right. Again….get the call right…..where the runners go is the lesser of two evils.

  13. blake February 7th, 2012 at 9:52 am

    ” How many times have we seen plays reviewed in the NFL or NCAA and they Still get it wrong?”

    Not all that often….

  14. Doc Iac February 7th, 2012 at 9:54 am

    isnt there 30 teams?

    anyway i like the article, replay is good for football, i think its fine the way it is in baseball

  15. tomingeorgia February 7th, 2012 at 9:55 am

    Interesting point about “phantom” double plays.

  16. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    “This guy is the front man of the organization with both the players and the media,” a baseball source said. “He’s the guy in charge of discipling players. How are they going to have any respect for him after this? To say this has nothing to do with the Yankees is naïve on their part.”

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/spo…..z1lhkrJMtq

    the biggest story this spring will be cashman.

    Baseball players would lose respect for Cashman because he cheated on his separated wife with a crazy lady? Oh yea? Baseball players, one of the most cheatingest group of athletes in the world? A-rod is probably like, “I feel for you, bro.” Jeter,”Shoulda given her a gift basket man.”

    Cashman doesn’t discipline the players for their off the field dalliances so sorry, dumb point.

  17. blake February 7th, 2012 at 10:01 am

    Cashman needs to trade for Choo to cover up his scandal.

  18. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:02 am

    Hold out on Vlad for 1 million, use the last bench spot for whatever other position you want to cover. They have 2 more spots. Get the best hitter first.

  19. Barry February 7th, 2012 at 10:03 am

    This piece is almost brilliantly conceived, and fun to read which is also important. Maybe this guy can make other contributions alsong the way.

  20. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    The Daily News got all of their baseball writers to contribute to that piece of crap article. They should be embarrassed having their names attached to it, but not as much as Cashman is right now. Most of the MSM baseball guys are staying away from this situation.

  21. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:05 am

    Interesting point about “phantom” double plays.

    They already sometimes call it or don’t, don’t think replay is going to get rid of it.

  22. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:08 am

    To appease the umpires Bud should have given them another umpire position, a guy whose job it is to know the rules front to back and sit in the replay booth. They can rotate them in for all I care as long as the guy knows the rules. Give him a rulebook too. He looks at every play even if its not replayed. That way, when they do replay it, he is already checking it, gives the answer.

    Umpires get another paid position for each game, minor league umpires don’t have to wait as long to get an open spot, fans get instant replays, and teams get the calls on the field right.

    Dealing with runners is easy, they already have provisions for Umpires to award bases. Give everyone 1 base or more at the umpires discretion. What team would argue with getting an out back?

  23. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 10:09 am

    Tell it to the Baltimore Ravens.

    ——–

    It wasn’t a catch dude.

  24. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 10:12 am

    Tell it to the Baltimore Ravens.

    ——–

    It wasn’t a catch dude.

    ==================

    Just ask the dude who dropped it. He said it wasn’t a catch.

  25. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:13 am

    The Umps are gonna blow calls once inna while. It happens

    If you look at Bill James top 100 pitching duels of 2011, you’ll notice the conclusion he came to is that umpires blowing plays ends up mattering more in closer contests, with something crazy like 40% of close pitcher duel’s being turned on a bad call by an umpire. 1. It happens more than you think, 2. It has a huge effect on the game, 3. EVERYONE can see when the umpires mess up now. We can see them blowing the strike zone on live TV, we can see them blowing the calls with replay from a million angles.

    How fun is it when Willie Bloomquist was called safe on a steal of second despite Cano tagging him in the rump while he was 5 feet off the bag?

  26. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 10:13 am

    here’s the latest cashman daily news event that isn’t really happening according to those lohud bloggers doing their best ostrich imitations :

    http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news.....46149.html

    this story seems to be gaining traction rather than the other way around .

    if we see a day where some major media outlet isn’t reporting on it, then it’ll be a sign the story is losing traction . that hasn’t happened since the story broke last week.

  27. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 10:14 am

    “Bottom line…..there is no perfect solution to some of the problems with expanded replay……however would you rather have umpires guessing on where the runners should go or guessing on the actual safe or out play?

    The object should be to get the calls as right as possible and to get closer to perfect…..just because its not perfect doesn’t mean its not better than getting the entire call wrong……getting the call wrong makes everything that happens afterwards wrong as well……so just get the actual call right with replay…..and do the best you can on placing the runners.

    Have an extra umpire in the booth to watch every play and signal down when sokehibg is questionable ……this isn’t rocket science”

    Couldn’t agree more. Easy to say “umpires are going to make mistakes, move on” when you’re not the one whose record gets screwed with or you’re not on the team who misses the playoffs because of the mistake. The role of the umpire is to get it right. Whatever it takes for that to happen should be done. Period.

  28. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 10:14 am

    To appease the umpires Bud should have given them another umpire position, a guy whose job it is to know the rules front to back and sit in the replay booth.

    ===============================

    I’d second this. Makes a lot of sense.

  29. Tom in N.J. February 7th, 2012 at 10:15 am

    BloggingBombers So excited that @countingcrows is covering a song by my buddy @kaseyanderson on their new album. Can’t wait to hear the whole record!

    Didn’t Kasey Anderson used to post here? I seem to remember him and Randy getting into an argument over Cashman and Wang. Randy wanted to make a bet with him over it…

  30. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 10:16 am

    “1. It happens more than you think, 2. It has a huge effect on the game, 3. EVERYONE can see when the umpires mess up now. We can see them blowing the strike zone on live TV, we can see them blowing the calls with replay from a million angles. ”

    Three prime reasons for Selig to get off his ass – FOR ONCE – and do something about it!

  31. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:17 am

    The Yankees are trying to assemble a dominant pitching staff, aren’t we going to get into more pitcher duels with it? We need replay to subvert the Umpire’s efforts to ruin pitcher’s duels with their blown calls.

  32. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 10:17 am

    If your gonna label someone a “crazy lady”, how crazy is the male that chooses to involve himeself with her?
    If the rationale for putting a guy in the booth is to “get the call right”, then MLB should employ the technology necessary to get balls and strikes called correctly also. Either go the Entire mile, or don’t. The balls and strikes calls are wrong Numerous times in Every game played. If your rallying cry is gonna be “get it right”, you gotta go behind the plate. In the Playoffs, once you get beyond the Aces for each team Chucking in Game 1, a Mgr looks at the scheduled home plate Ump and how he calls a game vs his SP’s arsenal. Girardi does not want AJ throwing inna Playoff game that has a scheduled HP Ump with the strike zone of a tea cup. Again, if you truly want to “get it right”, you gotta go behind the plate. Otherwise, it’s just lip service for the masses.

  33. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 10:23 am

    this story seems to be gaining traction rather than the other way around .

    =================================

    Short of Cashman being found guilty of some sort of crime, or it can be somehow documented that his extra curriculars have impacted his ability to carry out his duties as GM, I don’t see how this indiscretion costs him his job.

  34. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 10:23 am

    “Baseball players would lose respect for Cashman because he cheated on his separated wife with a crazy lady?”

    some will lose respect for him that he couldn’t keep it quiet that he was canoodling a crazy lady :)

    newsflash:

    if you want to keep it quiet, don’t call 911 and try to have her committed.

  35. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:23 am

    If your gonna label someone a “crazy lady”, how crazy is the male that chooses to involve himeself with her?

    Nope. Bad argument. Crazy people get mixed up with normal people all the time. Its not easy to spot everyone’s foibles the minute you meet them. You never broke up with a lady because she turned out to be crazy? Sometimes its something that triggers the crazy. This goes for guys too. You don’t know any guys that may seem normal but have hair triggers on things?

    I can think of many ways a normal human would get involved with a crazy one, without that person being crazy. Maybe they are empathic and want to help the crazy person. Maybe they didn’t know. Maybe the person is crazy as well, but in the “Girl, you crazy, why you stayin’ with him.” way and not the “You’re crazy, I’m calling the cops!” way.

    Meanwell is crazy in the, needs help way. Faking a pregnancy and abortion to extort money, going all psycho on one of Cashman’s ex mistresses. Pretty obvious dude.

  36. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:24 am

    newsflash:

    if you want to keep it quiet, don’t call 911 and try to have her committed.

    Oh yea, this goes back to that hilarious joke you posted which you seemed to think had nothing to do with Cashman! Cool, cool…

  37. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 10:25 am

    “If the rationale for putting a guy in the booth is to “get the call right”, then MLB should employ the technology necessary to get balls and strikes called correctly also.”

    A-FLIPPIN’-MEN!!!! Talk about changing the outcome of a game! That one makes me craziest of all. Talk about screwing with records. Pitchers being required to get extra outs per inning because of some idiot who either doesn’t have a clue or has some kind of vendetta! Or conversely, pitchers being required to get fewer than three outs per inning!

    This is the 21st century. Someone at MIT already has it figured out. Use technology for God sake!

    And how about a consistent strike zone that all umps have to use for starters? This one’s a pitcher’s umpire. This one’s a hitter’s umpire. WTF!!! It isn’t about caring to get it right. It’s all about making money. Because if it wasn’t, that despicable moron Selig would be all over it.

    ARGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    :evil:

  38. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 10:26 am

    Is the MLB network even reporting the Cashman story?

  39. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:26 am

    Again, if you truly want to “get it right”, you gotta go behind the plate. Otherwise, it’s just lip service for the masses.

    This will come in due time, but you need to have the other stuff in place first so that the commish can say, “See how much help this is?” and have the umpires agree to it. He is dealing with a union.

    Even if I could automate the strike zone, which I could do if given the funding and I’m sure MLB could do right now if they wanted, I’d STILL pay the umpires to be behind home plate for fair foul safe out and the other rules that you need enforced. Umpires want to control the game, Bud Selig has to give them the illusion of control while handing off key parts of the game to the machines.

  40. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:27 am

    Is the MLB network even reporting the Cashman story?

    NBC new york is! Look out, this ones going regional!

  41. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 10:27 am

    “Short of Cashman being found guilty of some sort of crime, or it can be somehow documented that his extra curriculars have impacted his ability to carry out his duties as GM, I don’t see how this indiscretion costs him his job.”

    if he goes in front of a grand jury and gives testimony that he had only a platonic relationship with this woman and she can prove that’s not true, he’s then guilty of a crime.

    he won’t get fired for having a relationship, but he would get fired for lying to legal authorities if he did that.

    it makes little sense that cashman gave her money if he only casually knew her, though i suppose it’s possible.

  42. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 10:27 am

    The balls and strikes calls are wrong Numerous times in Every game played.

    ======================================

    Perhaps, but this doesn’t tend to favor one team or another. If a team loses an out, or a run due to a bad call, than a true injustice has been done to that team and it should be remedied if at all possilble. Not the same thing with balls and strikes. Zone might favor pitchers. Might favor hitters. But it won’t favor one team over another. Nobody wants a 4 hour game every night. If you start nitpicking on the strike zone, that’ll be a nightly routine.

  43. hardwired7 February 7th, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Getting paid to spend weeks rafting on the Colorado River and camping out in the Grand Canyon? Nice gig.

  44. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 10:28 am

    if he goes in front of a grand jury and gives testimony that he had only a platonic relationship with this woman and she can prove that’s not true, he’s then guilty of a crime

    =========================

    Has he?

  45. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 10:30 am

    “NBC new york is! Look out, this ones going regional!”

    yes, the new york region is insignificant in the media.

    hardly anyone pays attention to what happens in new york :)

  46. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 10:32 am

    - JERKY -
    Put yourself in Cashman shoes. Your a millionaire, and you represent the greatest sports franchise in history. Get real. You trash the woman, and give Cashman a free pass. The Stone Age double standard you are applying is drag your wife around by the hair worthy.

  47. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 10:33 am

    Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:27 am

    Is the MLB network even reporting the Cashman story?

    NBC new york is! Look out, this ones going regional!

    —————————

    lol seriously though I doubt see this being as big as some ppl think. Lohud was one of the few places that actually had a post about it.

  48. Bo knows February 7th, 2012 at 10:33 am

    I see the one man band is still going strong. A-clashin and a-bangin and a-tootlin.

  49. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 10:34 am

    “Has he?”

    “Cashman’s public denial that the two had an affair.”
    http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news.....46149.html

  50. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:34 am

    hardly anyone pays attention to what happens in new york

    In internet media I don’t think you’re going to see many people surfing to NBC new york for their daily dose of news. Its not anywhere on the front page of msnbc news page, not even under sports. Internet news isn’t like getting the NY POST or TIMES delivered to your house because you don’t like your local newspaper.

    Its a regional bit of news. It isn’t national except for some baseball fans that are tracking it obsessively.

  51. Villa Nova-Ya February 7th, 2012 at 10:35 am

    Randy -

    You are way to busy concocting scenarios for Cashman to be the criminal here.

  52. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:36 am

    Put yourself in Cashman shoes. Your a millionaire, and you represent the greatest sports franchise in history. Get real. You trash the woman, and give Cashman a free pass. The Stone Age double standard you are applying is drag your wife around by the hair worthy.

    She is dragging herself around by the hair. Cashman tried to end it with this broad and she blew up. That happens every day, around the world for both men and women. Get some perspective. When you cheat there is always a chance for drama, but everyone wants to be Don Draper.

  53. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:37 am

    “Has he?”

    “Cashman’s public denial that the two had an affair.”

    NBC new york is not a grand jury.

  54. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:37 am

    You are also not an executioner.

  55. 86w183 February 7th, 2012 at 10:38 am

    I stopped by a baseball blog and it turns out to me the National Enquirer

    Have a nice day, all. Maybe there will be some baseball chatter later

  56. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 10:38 am

    - JERKY -
    Your playin’ dodge ball Now. If you wanna “get it right”, you start with the area that is Most consistently Wrong, and that is balls and strikes. STOP the “this will come in due time”. That’s the lip service I mentioned earlier. Your Now defeating your own argument.

  57. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 10:41 am

    “Zone might favor pitchers. Might favor hitters. But it won’t favor one team over another.”

    Roll back to Game 3 of the ALDS. Zone that night favored ONE PITCHER but not the other. So it favored one team and not the other.

    Come on. How many times have we watched games and screamed about the strike zone and it being a one-sided affair?

    Do you know anything about Angel Hernandez and his interaction with the NYY? Do you feel real comfortable whenever he’s anywhere on the field and the Yanks are playing – least of all when he’s behind the plate? I know I don’t.

    *************

    I’m all for having an ump behind the plate for the purposes you noted, Jerkface.

  58. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:41 am

    Your playin’ dodge ball Now. If you wanna “get it right”, you start with the area that is Most consistently Wrong, and that is balls and strikes. STOP the “this will come in due time”. That’s the lip service I mentioned earlier. Your Now defeating your own argument.

    No, its impossible for Bud Selig to ‘get it right’ with the strike zone because the umpires won’t allow it. They are a union, and a separate entity from the rest of the baseball. Baseball needs to work on what it can fix, and they managed to COLLECTIVELY BARGAIN instant replay. That is a step in the right direction. No dodge ball about it.

    I have a number of really solid, implementable ideas for having an automated strike zone right now. One that even allows the umpires to call balls and strikes. It would not be possible without the umpires signing off on it.

    You are apparently living in a fantasy land. You ever hear the phrase,’give em an inch they take a mile?” Instant replay is the inch.

  59. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 10:41 am

    I can’t believe this board allows a few individuals to hijack this place on a daily basis talking about this Cashman issue when it’s not a baseball issue right now.

  60. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 10:42 am

    - JERKY -
    First you call her a “crazy lady”, now a “broad”. Your bias continues to rear it’s ugly head. NOT a pretty sight.

  61. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 10:42 am

    “If you start nitpicking on the strike zone, that’ll be a nightly routine.”

    All the more reason to have an electronic device calling balls and strikes. Then it’s automatic.

  62. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 10:43 am

    “Cashman’s public denial that the two had an affair.”

    ==========================

    Well, I don’t believe him. But I’m not on a grand jury hearing anything to do with this case and either is the NYC media.

    If he knocks of a liquor store, he’s committed a crime too. He hasn’t done that either. Why don’t we look to address the issue of whether he committed a crime when he’s actually accused of one…………..No, Prufrock. Trading Montero doesn’t count as a crime.

  63. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:43 am

    NOT a pretty sight.

    So’s yer face.

  64. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 10:44 am

    Roll back to Game 3 of the ALDS. Zone that night favored ONE PITCHER but not the other. So it favored one team and not the other.

    ====================

    Horsebleep.

  65. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 10:44 am

    Getting calls wrong is not “added entertainment” by any stretch of the imagination.

  66. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 10:44 am

    Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 10:41 am

    I can’t believe this board allows a few individuals to hijack this place on a daily basis talking about this Cashman issue when it’s not a baseball issue right now.

    ———————————-

    It doesn’t even seem like it’s an issue period. Is even even a topic on sports talk radio? I haven’t been happy with some of the moves Cashman has made but I seriously don’t believe this story is as big as some ppl think.

  67. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 10:45 am

    “lol seriously though I doubt see this being as big as some ppl think. Lohud was one of the few places that actually had a post about it.”

    jerkface-

    there are 9 out of 10 search results on googles first page on cashman.

    you could go twenty pages in in google searches and it’s still there.

    there are literally thousands of news articles out there

    fair or not, this is chum in the water for the media

    http://www.google.com/search?c.....8;oe=UTF-8

  68. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 10:45 am

    Is it even*

  69. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    Horsebleep.

    I don’t think game3 was what he meant… Sabathia lost the entire left half of the plate in his game vs Verlander because of the umpire, not because he wasn’t throwing balls over the plate.

  70. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    If Gerry Davis got it right, the outcome of the ALDS may have been entirely different. But he didn’t. No umpire should have that much control over a team’s destiny. If they can’t get it right, they shouldn’t be there. The hell of it is, is that there ARE ways of getting it right. But barnyard Bud is too busy doing nothing to worry about it.

  71. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    - JERKY -
    Bud is the guy that is bucking instant replay, NOT the Umps. The Umps want all the help they can get in order to make their job easier. No jobs would be lost as a HP Ump would still be there for fair-foul calls etc. Your argument grows weaker the more the Caveman speaks.

  72. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    “So’s yer face.”

    my kind of trash talking

    nice job :)

  73. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    there are 9 out of 10 search results on googles first page on cashman.
    you could go twenty pages in in google searches and it’s still there.
    there are literally thousands of news articles out there

    No idea how the AP works, eh?

    There are literally 12 articles out there. 12.

  74. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    Notice how randy never quotes or links to these articles… merely implies they exist.

  75. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    “It doesn’t even seem like it’s an issue period. Is even even a topic on sports talk radio? I haven’t been happy with some of the moves Cashman has made but I seriously don’t believe this story is as big as some ppl think.”

    Obviously, these individuals have an agenda so this personal matter of Cashman’s gives them some additional ammunition to carry out that agenda here.

  76. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    Bud is the guy that is bucking instant replay, NOT the Umps. The Umps want all the help they can get in order to make their job easier.

    The umpires have been very out spoken on instant replay and automated strike zones, try again. Cowboy Joe West does not want a Robobrain tellin’ him What to Do.

    See I typed that in a way you could understand it.

  77. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    “Sabathia lost the entire left half of the plate in his game vs Verlander because of the umpire, not because he wasn’t throwing balls over the plate.”

    Thank you. That was so widely recognized and discussed that it isn’t even worth dignifying comments that call it otherwise.

  78. Long Time Lurker February 7th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    I’m going to comment on video replay from a somewhat unique situation of being a sports official myself – I am a rugby referee.

    Rugby, as you may know, is a free-flowing game much like soccer, but with a much more involved set of laws. At all times, there is one – and only one – match official who has the final say on what happens on the field of play: the referee. At high amateur and professional levels, he or she has two assistant referees who judge when a player or the ball goes out of bounds and can report foul play, but the ultimate call on any infringement belongs to the referee alone.

    At high level matches there is a fourth official appointed – the Television Match Official – who has the authority to review plays referred by the referee. That review is limited to plays in the in-goal (end zone) area – scoring plays (tries, though penalty kicks may also be referred) and foul play in the in-goal, but not the rest of the field of play (at least for now). When referring a call for review, the referee asks the TMO one of two questions: “Try or no try?”, asked when the referee cannot see if a player properly grounds the ball, and “Is there any reason why a try cannot be awarded?”, where the referee believes he sees the ball properly grounded but wants confirmation that there was no infringement or foul play. The TMO gives his report to the referee via radio (the referee never leaves the field of play or views the video himself) and the referee usually accepts the TMO’s judgment, though the ref has ultimate authority to call the play as he sees fit. Also, and I may be wrong on this, I believe the videos being viewed by the TMO are simultaneously displayed on the video boards at the stadiums, so everything is on the level and the fans know exactly what the TMO is using to make his decisions.

    As in any sport, there is much hand-wringing about the scope of video reply – the powers that be are discussing extending replay to include the lead-up top a scoring play (such as where a player may have stepped out of bounds 20 meters or so from the try line and the assistant referee missed the call) and instances of foul play, but the system has, by and large, worked very well with limited delay of the game even though reviews tend to be requested at least once per match.

    That long-winded background leads me to my ultimate point – I think a rugby-style system could work well in baseball, with a designated official (often an up-and-coming referee himself who is not quite at the level to be a primary ref, or who might be on the downswing of his career and lacks the fitness to referee an international test match) at each game whose sole responsibility is video review and final decision on any call belonging to the umpire crew chief. Similarly, the crew chief would ask specific questions – “Fair or foul,” “did the ball clear the wall,” and so forth. Also, use the big video screen to show what the video umpire is looking at, so there is transparency about what he is using to make the call. This would eliminate the delay of a bunch of umps trotting off the field, disappearing for several minutes at a time, then trotting back out with a decision.

    Sorry about the length of the post, but this is what happens when one has too much time on his hands.

  79. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    “It doesn’t even seem like it’s an issue period. Is even even a topic on sports talk radio? I haven’t been happy with some of the moves Cashman has made but I seriously don’t believe this story is as big as some ppl think.”

    Obviously, these individuals have an agenda so this personal matter of Cashman’s gives them some additional ammunition to carry out that agenda here.

    ———————————————

    Yep that seems to be the case.

  80. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 10:52 am

    The issue of Mgrs scheduling Chuckers based on the strike zone of scheduled HP Umps gets NO coverage. The Tigers did a Very good job of matching up their SP’s with the HP Umps. The Yanks fell far short in this area and paid the price.

  81. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Long Time Lurker – That was a great post. For some reason I have my doubts any MLB upmire could speak that intelligently about replay. They just don’t seem to take their craft seriously.

  82. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 10:54 am

    The Tigers did a Very good job of matching up their SP’s with the HP Umps.

    How did they ever know to pitch their best pitcher first, second best pitcher second, and third best pitcher third? Geniuses!

    Teams get scouting reports on umpires for each series. The Yankees knew what they were going into, but you can’t pitch CC 2nd.

  83. Villa Nova-Ya February 7th, 2012 at 10:54 am

    The strike zone is way too subjective.

    There should never be a quote from a pitcher (or a hitter for that matter) that has anything to do with “trying to figure the umpire’s strike zone.” Or, umpire x calls high strikes. Or even, “I’m okay with a low strike zone, as long as it stays consistent throughout the game.” The strike zone is a defined area, not something that is open to artistic interpretation.

    And I don’t see how having an umpire whose position is to watch a television screen could possibly hurt the game.

  84. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 10:55 am

    randy

    What was the % you wanted to limit someone to on how much she posted?

    You may have gone over.

  85. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 10:55 am

    The floats haven’t even started and my office is shaking.

    As I understand it from rumors Tiki is thinking of writing another book claiming that his criticisms of Eli and Coughlin were the impetus to both of them making the adjustments necessary to make the Giants champions.

    I have no issue with the Yankees picking Ibanez if Damon is pricing himself as an everyday player and that’s not what the Yankees are looking for.

    My guess on Giants who will not be Giants next year:

    Manningham (someone will give him a starting job)
    Jacobs
    Osi
    McKenzie
    Deihl
    Grant
    Ross
    Bernard

  86. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 10:55 am

    “You are way to busy concocting scenarios for Cashman to be the criminal here.”

    i’m amused by people on the blog acting like ostriches with their heads in the sand.

  87. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 10:55 am

    - JERKY -
    Quoting Cowboy Joe West? HAHAHAHAHAHHA. You better leave The Alamo NOW.

  88. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    ALDS Game 3

    Sabathia Strike Zone Plot

    http://www.brooksbaseball.net/....._type=.gif

  89. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    Well actually MLB allowing Game 1 to start, started the dominoes falling because CC wouldn’t have been pitching Game 3 had it not been for the screw up with Game 1.

    :(

  90. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    Verlander

    http://www.brooksbaseball.net/....._type=.gif

  91. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    i’m amused by people on the blog acting like ostriches with their heads in the sand.

    Until Cashman gets fired, you’re the ostrich.

  92. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 10:57 am

    Chip – why wouldn’t the Giants bring back Manningham?

  93. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 10:58 am

    LGY – Cany ou run that for sabathia too?

    Worst part of watching that game is that Verlander was getting strikes OFF the left side of the plate that Sabathia had lost entirely. Like the guy had never umpired a lefty starter before and couldn’t see where the pitches were going at all.

  94. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 10:58 am

    N/M I see it above.

  95. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 10:59 am

    Chip

    According to this site (http://www.bigblueinteractive......-salaries/) Osi has another year on his contract.

    I also can’t see them replacing both T’s.

    What I expect to see is a fairly highly drafted TE.

  96. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 10:59 am

    Sabathia has 3 called strikes on the left half of the plate, Verlander has 6 called strikes OFF the left side of the plate.

    Yes, that made the game SO MUCH MORE FUN TO WATCH /sarcasm

  97. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 11:00 am

    “What was the % you wanted to limit someone to on how much she posted?

    You may have gone over.”

    maine yankee -

    way over :)

    i have 6 months off each year, so cashman picked a bad time for his indiscretions to become public record..

  98. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 11:00 am

    trisha – true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 10:57 am

    Chip – why wouldn’t the Giants bring back Manningham?
    ——————

    I think they would like to, but someone is going to offer him a contract to be a 1 or 2 WR and for the Giants he’s going to be a 3 so they won’t be able to match the money.

  99. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 11:03 am

    randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 10:55 am
    “You are way to busy concocting scenarios for Cashman to be the criminal here.”

    i’m amused by people on the blog acting like ostriches with their heads in the sand.

    ————————————————

    I was waiting for someone else to run with this but I can’t wait any longer.

    I’d rather have my head in the sand than where your’s appears to be.

  100. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 10:59 am

    Chip

    According to this site (http://www.bigblueinteractive……-salaries/) Osi has another year on his contract.

    I also can’t see them replacing both T’s.

    What I expect to see is a fairly highly drafted TE.
    —————

    Rich –

    After the hubbub about Osi claiming Reese lied to him about an extension and his general bad attitude over his contract and the emergence of JPP I think the Giants will look to trade Osi.

    As for the tackles, Kareem is a FA, Big Deihl wasn’t a tackle until Beatty got hurt, that’s when he was moved back outside from Guard. He’s being paid too much to be a LG though and the Giants have Boothe and Petrus who could slot in there. Personally I don’t like Beatty – I would prefer the Giants replace him with a solid LT, move Deihl to the right side – but I think it’s possible that they just let him go.

    In the draft Reese will do what Reese has always done – draft the top rated player on the board when they pick and not pick based on positional needs.

  101. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    The ump was pretty bad that game, but to be fair Sabathia just wasn’t hitting his spots. Martin had to move his glove on almost every pitch.

    The Yankees also had the chance to win that game, but Soriano blew it.

  102. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    Plus the Giants are probably going to have to give new contracts to JPP and Cruz.

  103. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 11:07 am

    “I was waiting for someone else to run with this but I can’t wait any longer.

    I’d rather have my head in the sand than where your’s appears to be.”

    maine yankee-

    is that the best you have?

    i’m waiting for gb7 to show you how to insult me :)

  104. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 11:08 am

    LGY – right is right and wrong is wrong. Simple as that. If they don’t get it right they are messing with records (that’s why I don’t pay attention to anybody’s stat arguments) and they are potentially messing with the outcome of the game and at times, the outcome of someone’s season (see McLelland – Padres-Rockies).

    The Yankees shouldn’t have had to rely on what Soriano did. Called CORRECTLY it may have not come down to that.

    Again, though, this goes back to starting the first game when the forecast was for continual showers. Nice that they decided to do it right by the time the freakin’ WS came around!

  105. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 11:08 am

    Umpiring isn’t going to be perfect – no officiating in any sport will be.

    What I have an issue with is the umpires engaging the players and managers in arguments on the field and making the game about them rather than the players.

    No one has ever paid money to go watch someone umpire a game and yet far too often they inject themselves into the game in far too visible a manner.

  106. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:08 am

    lgy – I would definitely say they had their chances to win and yes CC was missing his spots which was not getting him any calls. Someone had brought up above how these umpiring problems don’t effect the entertainment value or enjoyment of the games and… well… this particular instance was not improving anyone’s experience around here… that’s for certain.

  107. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:10 am

    Chip

    I guess it depends on the return for Osi. I wouldn’t give him away. He’s one of the best pure pass rushers in the NFL.

    I realize that Beatty was the starting LT, but they seemed soft when he played. I actually thought that at least from the perspective of the running game, they were better with Petrus at LG and Booth at C. Anyway, it just seems unGiant-like to me for them to revamp the OL that much (Diehl, McKenzie) in one offseason.

    Need has become more of a factor (not to the extent of reaching, but within limits of value) because of the cap/free agency. They really may need a TE with injury issues with Ballard and Beckham.

  108. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 11:10 am

    But forget the postseason, etc. etc. Those yayhoos get it wrong a heck of a lot of the time. You’re here for games. As Jerkface said, it’s on national television and so everyone can see the same thing.

    The biggest embarrassment is that they don’t seem to be embarrassed.

  109. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 11:10 am

    randy

    I’m not as grumpy as GB7.

  110. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 11:11 am

    Buckner is the worst Ump Anywhere he is stationed. That guy is consistently horrible.

  111. jacksquat February 7th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    Has Damon given in yet? ;)

  112. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    Was CC missing his spots or was he trying to adjust to a moving strike zone? What’s he supposed to do, put it right in someone’s wheelhouse in order to get a call? That umpiring was atrocious, so much so that the press was still buzzing about it days later. How often do you see that?

  113. Villa Nova-Ya February 7th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    Randy -

    And insulting people is always a nice thing to do.

    You can really be a bully, you know?

  114. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:15 am

    “Buckner is the worst Ump Anywhere he is stationed.”

    Angel Hernandez “merits” some consideration.

  115. austinmac February 7th, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Cashman will not be fired for having an affair. Anyone who says otherwise, is way off base.

    Some of our posters, or is it just one, seem willing to believe everything the accused says while discounting everything else. That shows judgment that is flawed. Would one expect the accused to say it is all true?

    This is a waste of time. Larussa was drunk, arrested and moved on without any ill effects. Cashman slept with a woman who is unstable.

    I guess some on this board have ever dated anyone who they later regretted when they knew them better or maybe they are just not honest.

  116. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 11:16 am

    “I’m not as grumpy as GB7.”

    maine yankee-

    you know who’s grumpy?

    maine snowplow drivers

    there’s hardly any snow around southern maine.

    warmest winter ever it seems.

    of course that’s my fault for that too.

    i have a fixation on the weather :)

  117. Wave Your Hat February 7th, 2012 at 11:17 am

    This stuff with Cashman is going to blow over. It’s fun to read about but at the end of the day it’s a big “who cares”?

  118. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    “You can really be a bully, you know?”

    and you have experienced that from me?

  119. Long Time Lurker February 7th, 2012 at 11:21 am

    Irreverent Discourse –

    Rugby refs are constantly evaluated on their performances, and at the highest levels must o post-match video reviews with assessors as well as write self-evaluations. Moreover, if a ref blows calls during a major tournament, it will directly (and sometimes immediately) impact his selection for future test matches. That was particularly evident in the recently-completed World Cup. Without going into too much detail, there were a few instances of dangerous tackles where the ref on the day issued a yellow card (player “sent to the Sin Bin (yes, that really is what we call it) for 10 minutes and his team plays shorthanded), but the citing commission decided on further review that it should have been a straight red card (player sent off for the duration of the match and liable to further sanction). Those refs were not appointed to matches during the later stages of the tournament.

    Being a match official is a lonely job – in rugby, especially at the amateur and college levels I officiate, it is usually just you, alone on a 100 meter by 70 meter pitch trying to put yourself in proper position to be sure that 30 grown men or women are playing the game safely and according to law and equity. Plus, all the while you are being yelled at by the coaches and fans (and pleaded with by the players) to call every single technical penalty or minor infringement – if we did that there would never be a game, just constant whistles. I like to say that the best position to make a call is from 70 meters away, in the upper deck of a stadium over the rim of a beer – they clearly have a better view of that penalty that the ref who’s right there ;). We do it for love of the game.

    I think a similar ethic likely applies to most professional umpires, and they certainly take their jobs seriously – perhaps they aren’t subject to the same level of constant scrutiny as rugby referees (and I guarantee they have a better union), but at the same time they are (or at least the home plate umpire is) being asked to make a ruling on absolutely every pitch of the game. By definition, then, there’s a lot more opportunity for them to screw up. I think all you can ask of any official in any sport is that he or she be consistent (which is something I know I strive to do) – if the call is being made the same for both sides, then the responsibility is on the players and coaches to adapt themselves to the official. View us as part of the field conditions – if the infield is wet and the ball is rolling slowly, you are probably taking a couple of steps in, so if the ump is calling a wide strike zone, you should probably try to foul off those balls an inch or two off the black, no?

  120. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 11:22 am

    Boo Hoo it’s the umps fault. I can understand blaming the ump when he legitimately blows the game, like the winning run at HP or the Gallaraga perfect game.

    But to blame the ump when the players legitimately fail to execute throughout the game is weaksauce.

    The Giants got boned on two non PI calls and a questionable holding call. Their players executed though and won the game.

    Sabathia pitched like crap in game 3. If you want to play the blame game, it’s on him and Soriano.

  121. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:27 am

    I can accept that umps/refs blow calls. I can’t accept arrogance after a blown call. You see that more in MLB than the other sports.

  122. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:27 am

    LGY – You’re missing the point here, unless you are responding to someone else.

  123. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 11:29 am

    LGY – people with integrity blame the ump when the ump gets it wrong. People who like to skirt around issues blame the pitcher or the player.

    Most of the time, pitchers don’t pitch perfect games. But they are entitled to pitch their game and have the game called fairly. When it doesn’t happen, it’s wrong. PERIOD.

  124. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:29 am

    LongTimeLurker – My issue is with the umpires that have a “reputation” and clearly never try to improve and hone their strikezones. They are proud of the fact they call the zone a certain way, essentially making that part of the game about them, and not about the rulebook or the players.

  125. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 11:31 am

    I can accept that umps/refs blow calls. I can’t accept arrogance after a blown call. You see that more in MLB than the other sports.

    They should start not announcing who the umpires are, and blur their faces out on tv. Some of them just wanna be on camera.

  126. Wave Your Hat February 7th, 2012 at 11:33 am

    I like subjective umpiring. I know that’s becoming a minorty view, but I think the ability to pitch to a subjective strike zone is a skill that adds to the game, I think the ability to throw a pitch outside the strike zone which nevertheless appears to be a strike is a skill that adds to the game. As a fan I think the frustration I feel when the ump blows, or seems to blow, a call against my team, and the sneaky satisfaction I feel when the blown call helps my team, adds to my overall enjoyment of the sport.

    In our increasingly technological and absolutist world umpiring is bound to become more and more mechanistic, but I think we’ll all lose something as it does.

  127. Long Time Lurker February 7th, 2012 at 11:33 am

    Chip –

    We rugby refs have the benefit of Law 6.A.4(a) – “The referee is the sole judge of fact and law during a match. The referee must apply fairly all the Laws of the Game in every match.”

    That goes a long way in ensuring that arguments with calls are rare. Additionally, there’s the fact that rugby’s culture emphasizes gentlemanly behavior – referees are always called “Sir,” albeit with a certain degree of contempt at times – we talk to players generally only through the captains and can penalize a team for dissent if the players question the calls. It also helps that we are often drinking a pint with the players after a match and, speaking for myself and most other referees I know, always willing to discuss our calls and any other concerns the players might have while sitting in the bar.

    The culture of baseball is obviously different, with a long tradition of players and coaches arguing calls, often for the purpose of motivating their teams. To a degree, you have to accept it and move on; when have you ever seen an umpire – or any sports official – reverse his call based on a player getting in his face and yelling? Won’t happen.

  128. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    “My guess on Giants who will not be Giants next year:

    Manningham (someone will give him a starting job)
    Jacobs
    Osi
    McKenzie
    Deihl
    Grant
    Ross
    Bernard”

    Ah, sports…

    I think they find a way to keep Manningham. The 2 WRs all seem humble and complimentary enough and be able to play together as a unit. Unless someone overwhelms MM, I see him coming back.

    And unless someone overwhelms the Giants with a trade offer, I roll the dice with Osi one more time. He was hurt WAAY to much to do the whole offseason script over again.

    And I expect to see Deihl back. I don’t think they have the depth to cut them both loose, particularly since Joseph didn’t exactly distinguish himself before the injury.

    Terrell Thomas is a FA, and the Giants likely need to bring one of him or Ross back.

  129. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    If the homeplate ump takes his mask off to jaw at a player, or stands in the players face like one of them did to Martin last season (and then ejected him)… those umpires should be fired. No questions asked.

  130. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 11:35 am

    You techincally gotta strike zone spelled out in the Rules. It should be called as specified. If technology must be employed in order to do that, MLB should do it. It’s that simple.

  131. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:35 am

    Jerkface, you are correct. They are attention w hores.

  132. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    I am pro-robot.

  133. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    “The Giants got boned on two non PI calls and a questionable holding call. Their players executed though and won the game. ”

    Hint: PLAYERS SHOULD NOT HAVE TO EXECUTE BEYOND WHAT IS REQUIRED TO WIN A GAME FAIRLY.

    That means that the opposition shouldn’t be gifted anything because of blown plays, nor the team with the bad calls have to go above and beyond because of bad calls.

    I guess some sports decided to have more integrity and cared enough about the sanctity of their sport to want to have it done right, as opposed to making excuses for “human error.”

    Maybe some century MLB will decide it matters.

  134. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    “particularly since Joseph”

    Oy, time warp.

    Beatty.

  135. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    rich in NJ – Be pro lasers… the robots are implied :) I for one welcome our new overlords…

  136. Bronx Jeers February 7th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    IMO, Outside of the strike zone the biggest issue with umps are out/ safe calls on the base paths.

    My idea was to give managers 1 challenge per series. Maybe next CBA….

  137. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    If technology must be employed in order to do that, MLB should do it. It’s that simple.

    They should! But they shouldn’t hold off on doing anything until this is impossible. They should keep making improvements, incrementally if they have to.

  138. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:39 am

    ID

    OK, pro-tech. :D

  139. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:39 am

    donny – just to be clear, in this case it’s ok to not trust the umpires “eyes” and refer to the empirical data that shows he has been blowing calls? :)

  140. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 11:39 am

    Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:10 am

    Chip

    I guess it depends on the return for Osi. I wouldn’t give him away. He’s one of the best pure pass rushers in the NFL.

    I realize that Beatty was the starting LT, but they seemed soft when he played. I actually thought that at least from the perspective of the running game, they were better with Petrus at LG and Booth at C. Anyway, it just seems unGiant-like to me for them to revamp the OL that much (Diehl, McKenzie) in one offseason.

    Need has become more of a factor (not to the extent of reaching, but within limits of value) because of the cap/free agency. They really may need a TE with injury issues with Ballard and Beckham.
    —————–

    I agree about Beatty – I don’t think the Giants are a team that does well with a finesse player at LT – if they want to move him to the right side – fine. But covering Eli’s blind side with him is not a good plan. The Giants got a lot better when DD moved outside and Boothe came in and gave them a more physical line.

    I think Osi can get a 2nd round pick.

    I just don’t see Reese altering his strategy. Last year he desperately needed LBs and didn’t draft any until the 6th round.

    There are going to be a lot of TEs available on FA so the Giants could address it that way. Though my FA top targets are OT Levi Brown and LB Ahmad Brooks

  141. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 11:41 am

    DONNYBROOK – absolutely correct. Why have a strike zone spelled out in the rules if umpires have freedom to have their own zones. It’s ludicrous.

    Wave, the only time I am happy to see the Yankees benefit from a blown call is if the other team has been gifted calls during the game. Thats’s more out of frustration than it is excitement.

    I am never happy to see the Yankees gifted calls.

  142. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:43 am

    “I am never happy to see the Yankees gifted calls.”

    I am happy, but I hate myself for it…

  143. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 11:43 am

    I’m definitely pro tech.

  144. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 11:43 am

    “I am happy, but I hate myself for it…”

    :)

  145. Wave Your Hat February 7th, 2012 at 11:44 am

    “Wave, the only time I am happy to see the Yankees benefit from a blown call is if the other team has been gifted calls during the game. Thats’s more out of frustration than it is excitement.

    I am never happy to see the Yankees gifted calls.”

    That’s because you are a truly good person, trisha. Me, if I am brutally honest, kind of like it when my team gets a call.

  146. ron February 7th, 2012 at 11:44 am

    Unless cashman broke the law,in a relatively big way,he’s not getting fired.

    If it was a sexual harassment thing,or touching young kids,etc…,he’d be in trouble.

    He is not a politician,where it would matter much more.

    Reached at his home near Albany, Neathway’s ex-husband, who asked not be identified, said there’s an order of protection barring her from having contact with him, their daughter and his family.

    “She has orders of protection. They’re not uncommon with her, and everybody she has involvement with,” he said.

    Prosecutors said Neathway’s history of arrests date back to 1998 and includes two harassment charges upstate for stalking, a trespassing arrest in North Carolina, and a series of crimes in New Jersey that resulted in a felony trespassing conviction.

    She was also arrested for aggravated harassment in Westchester in 2006, and was busted last year on charges she harassed a New York man she had been dating with emails, records show.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/l.....gcuc9glCoM

  147. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 11:44 am

    - JERKY -
    Point is, you Start in the area where there is the greatest number of infractions. Behind the plate is where this occurs most often by far.

  148. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:45 am

    Calls can only be right or wrong. Calls can never be “more right” than right.

    The “human element” only allows calls to be “more wrong”. Necessary, but the safeguards for its impact on the game are non-existent.

  149. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 11:47 am

    “That’s because you are a truly good person, trisha. Me, if I am brutally honest, kind of like it when my team gets a call.”

    :)

    That’s sweet, Wave. I don’t know how good a person I am, but I’m huge on fair play, that’s for sure. And since sports are entertainment and not life and death, I don’t think it makes you a bad person to want to see your team get a break. I think that makes you a pretty typical sports fan.

    I’d say I’m the outlier here.

  150. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 11:48 am

    Point is, you Start in the area where there is the greatest number of infractions. Behind the plate is where this occurs most often by far.

    Also the area that is most difficult to affect change. Commish doesnt have the balls or authority to discipline umps with bad zones, umps themselves control the people who become umps so MLB doesnt have a backup source of replacements. If MLB was the one controlling & training umpires with a streamlined system that extended down to the minors this would be less of an issue, but surprise its not streamlined at all so its hard to change!

  151. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 11:50 am

    - ID -
    As usual, you go the Evelyn Wood route and do not read my posts entirely. I am against instant replay. BUT, if your gonna justify it’s use under the rationale of “get it right”, then the place to immediately use it is in the area of balls and strikes. This will be the last time I reward your laziness with an instant replay.

  152. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:51 am

    The only thing that worries me about Cashman’s affair with this seemingly troubled woman is if it says something about his ability to evaluate um, talent…

  153. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:51 am

    Nope, pretty sure I read it… you just can’t take a joke, or understand one. Not sure which. Not sure it matters.

  154. yanks 27 February 7th, 2012 at 11:52 am

    Rich,

    I think that was decided when he hired Girardi and continued to lean on him for advice….

  155. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:52 am

    donnybrook – So your response to my question is “Yes”. Thanks.

    You can leave out the part where you stroke your ego, I don’t read it anyway.

  156. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 11:53 am

    Whatever was Questech supposed to be all about, and did it just fall off the face of the map?

  157. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:54 am

    trisha – They are supposed to use it to “evaluate” the umpires… but then… when was the last time one was fired for incompetence? They’ve never showed the results of Questec or what they do with it… and all we really have to go on is Tom Glavine crying about Questec stadiums causing umpires to call tighter strike zones.

  158. ron February 7th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    You’re only going to be able to keep technology away from this for so long.

    We,sitting in our own living rooms have seen blatant,obvious,no doubt mistakes,more & more as technology gets better & better.
    These same umps who blow the calls then see what we saw,after they are convinced they made the correct calls,and are forced,in most cases to admit they blew it.

    This will not continue forever,and can’t.

  159. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:57 am

    ron – Exactly.

    It’s baseball’s responsibility to give the umpires the tools they need to call the game correctly. That used to be just a facemask and a clicker… Now that technology has improved, so must the tools.

  160. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 11:57 am

    ID, funny you mention that!

    Omar Minaya, the General of the New York Mets, was asked during Spring Training what present he would like to give to Glavine on his 40th birthday. Minaya’s response, “to get rid of Questech.”

  161. Migs February 7th, 2012 at 11:58 am

    Would anyone else agree with me that randy is really smug and arrogant?

    When it comes to cashman, you are better off tuning randy out…if you want to ignore his opinions on pineda, I also recommend doing so.

  162. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 11:58 am

    “We,sitting in our own living rooms have seen blatant,obvious,no doubt mistakes,more & more as technology gets better & better.”

    With mobile technology being the way it is, and the proliferation of HD screens around stadiums, we’re rapidly approaching the era when the MOST disadvantaged persons in a baseball game WILL be the umpires.

    That’s simply ridiculous.

  163. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 11:58 am

    Whatever was Questech supposed to be all about, and did it just fall off the face of the map?

    Questech did help reel in strike zones a little, but wasn’t in every stadium, and as far as I know isn’t even used anymore.

    With pitchfx we have really good data on strike zones. Something I wanted to get off the ground, but could not find an engineer that would design my HUD for free :twisted: to show at the last winter meetings is a monocle the umpires would wear. You’d pipe in the pitch fx data using wireless. It would only have to display a strike zone box and then the point where the ball passes the plate. Umpires could use it to help them when they miss a pitch, and eventually you could discipline them based on going against it too much.

    Programming it and running it? Not hard
    Getting someone to make an inobtrusive monocle display that can output basic information? Slightly harder :) I think its technically feasible, but I’m a systems analyst not an optical engineer.

  164. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    jerkface – The technology for that type of system has existed for years. They just need to beef up the response time on the pitchFX system and they could totally use it.

    Unfortunately the crotchety old man running the show has no interest in introducing technology he can’t understand… which is basically anything more advanced than an 8mm camera.

  165. ET February 7th, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    JonHeymanCBS
    just heard commentator describe throng at parade for nfl champions as a “pro giants crowd.” yes, live tv aint easy

  166. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    And Cowboy Joe West. HAHAHAHAHAH

  167. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    Augmented reality is the future. MLB has been pretty good at advancing technology off the field, I’d like to see them innovate on the field.

  168. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    “The only thing that worries me about Cashman’s affair with this seemingly troubled woman is if it says something about his ability to evaluate um, talent…”

    he definitely must have not been trusting his eyes.

    it must have been a stat based decision.

    something like ” only 5 % of the opposite sex is crazy” so he thought he was safe.

    i am puzzled by him not going younger and cheaper though.

    this is going to be the most expensive pick up for cashman since igawa.

  169. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    Part of the reasons strike zones are so effed up is because the catcher is blocking his view of the pitch at it’s best angle. An umpire has to set up slightly behind and off to the side of a catcher and so his perspective is going to be skewed a little and there will be blind spots.

    The problem is that there’s no good solution. Questech wasn’t perfect either. And you can’t use it as a plate up replacement. What are you going to do, just hardwire it so that the pitch result appears on the scoreboard? So defensive and offensive players would have to look at the scoreboard before they know what’s going on?

  170. ET February 7th, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    It actually is kind of cruel for SNY to have had Tiki Barber on as an analyst for the SB and parade.

  171. Duh Innings February 7th, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    Real simple, cheap, in-house solution for the Yankees DH to start 2012:

    Chris Dickerson-Andruw Jones DH platoon in the #9 slot with the everyday players receiving DH starts as well.

    Dickerson vs. RHP, Jones vs. LHP.

    Dickerson can back up in the outfield better than Damon, Matsui, and Ibanez with a stronger arm than any of them.

    If the Yanks re-signed Eric Chavez, he could be an option for DH (Dickerson’s replacement if Dickerson can’t get it done) as well as the backup 1B/3B, too (he should bat eighth in games he starts at 3B or DH.) Chavez could also share DH with Dickerson and Jones, although he is best as the backup 1B/3B.

    Gardner
    Jeter
    Cano
    Rodriguez
    Granderson
    Teixiera (switches places with Granderson when he shows he can hit .270 or better)
    Swisher
    Martin/Cervelli or Romine (whichever is the backup catcher)
    Dickerson/Jones DH

    Same lineup 1-7, Chavez 3B and batting 8th, Martin/Cervelli or Romine 9th in games A-Rod DHs.

    The Yanks should not sign Damon, Matsui, or Ibanez because if they did they would be a man who can capably play the field short on the bench.

    By making Dickerson the primary DH to start 2012 and bringing back Chavez, all Yankee non-pitchers can play the field. If Dickerson can’t get it done, Chavez can take his place. If A-Rod falls to injury again and is out a month or two or more, Chavez would be an acceptable man to hold down 3B.

    Damon might bark about lack of at-bats at DH because he’s in pursuit of 3000 hits and an automatic ticket to Hall Of Fame induction if he reaches that, Matsui can’t field or run and hit only 12 HR last year, and while Ibanez had a nice 2011, he is 40 years old and can barely play the field. C’mon. Dickerson will turn 30, Chavez is only 33-34, and again, both can play the field well. They’e younger, cheaper, all around better players than the old DH candidates at this point. Check Dickerson’s splits vs. RHP – not bad. Give the guy a chance. Worst-case scenario is he sucks and is replaced by Chavez or A-Rod gets more DH time and Chavez and Nunez get more 3B time. Nice thing about Dickerson is you can still keep him as the fifth outfielder-pinch hitter.

  172. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    Chip – No, simply put a light inside the Umpires display to indicate a strike and he can make the call.

    The fans perceptions of what is going on should not change at all.

  173. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    What are you going to do, just hardwire it so that the pitch result appears on the scoreboard? So defensive and offensive players would have to look at the scoreboard before they know what’s going on?

    Chip,

    Why would defensive and offensive players have to look at the scoreboard? This is where things get muddled in debates on helping umpires with the strike zone. The player at bat does not stare in dumbfounded confusion at the umpire until a strike or ball is called. Why would they have to look at the scoreboard? If the system was automated, would it not make sense to simply give the umpire some sort of feedback and he would relay his ball or strike call.

    Some umpires already have a huge delayed strike/ball call. This is not hard.

  174. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    “Say good night Gracie”

  175. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Wouldn’t players check the count on the scoreboard now anyways? Do you think players catch everything an umpire does? The only thing indicating ball/strike other than the scoreboard *right now* is the umpire doing nothing or putting his little hand up. Would it really be a big change to display BALL/STRIKE on the scoreboard? The umpire could then say what it is! No turning around necessary.

  176. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    Almost all umpires make a verbal indication of the pitch. Most of the ones with the “delayed punch outs” and delayed calls have already told the batter what the pitch was.

  177. blake February 7th, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    I think fans should be the umpires at home….everyone immediately vote if a pitch is a strike or not and majority wins……..interactive sports!!

  178. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    What are you going to do, just hardwire it so that the pitch result appears on the scoreboard? So defensive and offensive players would have to look at the scoreboard before they know what’s going on?

    Chip,

    Why would defensive and offensive players have to look at the scoreboard? This is where things get muddled in debates on helping umpires with the strike zone. The player at bat does not stare in dumbfounded confusion at the umpire until a strike or ball is called. Why would they have to look at the scoreboard? If the system was automated, would it not make sense to simply give the umpire some sort of feedback and he would relay his ball or strike call.

    Some umpires already have a huge delayed strike/ball call. This is not hard.
    ——————–

    The players don’t have to stare at the umpire because he gives a verbal call.

    As for the delayed call – that’s false. There is one umpire (I forget his name) who has a delay in how he gestures, which annoys announcers to no end – but players say he gives the verbal call immediately.

  179. Duh Innings February 7th, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    Here’s another option if you don’t want Dickerson playing every day:

    Yanks trade for Ty Wigginton, Wigginton platoons there with Jones and backs up at all bases.

    Yet another option:

    Yanks re-sign Chavez to the same contract as last season, he is the 3B in games A-Rod DHs, the Yanks have an open audition for the final spot on the bench Dickerson can vy for.

    A third option would be to trade for Wigginton and re-sign Chavez.

  180. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    blake – Judging by the size of the Yankee fan base, I like our chances in that system :p

    “Phil Hughes has thrown his 15th perfect game this year, when will this guy ever throw a ball?” “well Michael, there aren’t too many places left in this stadium that he can throw a pitch that won’t be a strike”

  181. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Wouldn’t players check the count on the scoreboard now anyways? Do you think players catch everything an umpire does? The only thing indicating ball/strike other than the scoreboard *right now* is the umpire doing nothing or putting his little hand up. Would it really be a big change to display BALL/STRIKE on the scoreboard? The umpire could then say what it is! No turning around necessary.
    ———————————

    It’s an awful idea. Not worth even talking about.

  182. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    but players say he gives the verbal call immediately.

    Ok so what changes when he can still give the verbal call?

  183. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    And how are the outfielders supposed to hear the verbal call?? Omg they might be checking the scoreboard!!

  184. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    ET February 7th, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    It actually is kind of cruel for SNY to have had Tiki Barber on as an analyst for the SB and parade.
    ——————-

    I couldn’t tell who looked more miserable sunday night – Bellicheck, Brady or Tiki.

  185. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    “jerkface – The technology for that type of system has existed for years. They just need to beef up the response time on the pitchFX system and they could totally use it.

    Unfortunately the crotchety old man running the show has no interest in introducing technology he can’t understand… which is basically anything more advanced than an 8mm camera.”

    What’s most depressing is that he is a conniving tool in the whole thing. He was asked by the press about introducing more technology in order to take care of the spate of bad umpiring and he said that it was something he was definitely concerned about and that it would be looked into once the season was over.

    I believe that was two seasons ago…

  186. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    No one on the field or at the plate needs a ball or strike call to do anything that would be stifled by having to wait a half second.

  187. Long Time Lurker February 7th, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    To the extent my rugby pontifications haven’t caused your eyes to glaze over, here’s a discussion of a decision that got bottled by Wayne Barnes (one of the best referees in the world) and his assistant Dave Pearson (a high-level referee in his own right). This is the type of tackle I referred to earlier, made all the worse by the fact that it was off the ball, and should have resulted in a red card. Barnes relied on the report and recommendation of his assistant and issued a yellow, but clear video replay shows the Welshman essentially dropping the Irish player on his head. As it stands, there is no ability to refer such instances of foul play to the TMO, but every indication is that the powers that be will be allowing such review in the future. Baseball should show such flexibility.

    http://www.rugbyrefs.com/conte.....ned-yellow

    Personally, I am all for expansion of video replay in baseball for pretty much everything other than balls and strikes – given that you are talking about literally hundreds of pitches thrown in any given game, there is not really a mechanism that currently exists to efficiently implement an in-game review. I think there should, however, be an expanded use of existing technology to more frequently evaluate umpires on their strike zone performance, with real sanctions for inconsistency.

  188. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    No one on the field or at the plate needs a ball or strike call to do anything that would be stifled by having to wait a half second.
    ———————-

    Really? Stolen bases will go way up.

  189. blake February 7th, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    ID,

    I know….that was my thinking. I bet TV ratings would go through the roof.

  190. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    Chip – Really? Stolen bases will go way up

    Really? I think you just made that up.

  191. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    Actually I like the hard-wiring idea with the ump making the call after technology has called it! Heck if they wanted to they could even have the ump with some hand-held device that would immediately register a ball or strike, and then he could give the call – correctly!

  192. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    Really? Stolen bases will go way up.

    How? Stolen bases will go down as the catcher does not have to hold the pitch to give the ump time to make the call. You throw as the runner is going on stolen bases anyways.

  193. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    “Everyone is looking at the scoreboard for the ball or strike call for some reason…gotta go fast, time to shine!” – No base stealer ever

  194. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    Stolen bases will go down as the catcher does not have to hold the pitch to give the ump time to make the call.

    Great point, “framing pitches” and basically trying to fool the umpire into benefiting your team will be a thing of the past. There is no reason a catcher would be waiting for a ball/strike call when someone is stealing. They simply get up and fire the ball.

  195. Chip February 7th, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    Chip – Really? Stolen bases will go way up

    Really? I think you just made that up.
    ——————

    Whether you buy it or not is not really material. Umpiring won’t be controlled by computer.

  196. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    Umpiring won’t be controlled by computer.

    Yet. You can’t be naive enough to believe the game will stay this way forever…

    Digitizing everything and expanding to nearly full-replay is inevitable in almost every sport.

  197. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    Whether you buy it or not is not really material. Umpiring won’t be controlled by computer.

    True or not, there is no credible argument against. So far you’ve thrown out 2 things that make no sense.

  198. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    I’m sure someone said the TV would never have an affect on the game 60 years ago.

  199. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    You could hardwire the technology into the PA system.

    Strike or ball, loud and clear for the whole stadium to hear.

  200. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    Maybe they can hire Jimmy Hart and he can run around in the stadium with a megaphone screaming the balls and strikes…

    There’s no reason that this should or would be a limitation to a digital strikezone.

  201. blake February 7th, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    Catchers don’t hold pitches for the umpire if the runner is going anyway unless they are just giving up the base.

  202. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    “Whether you buy it or not is not really material. Umpiring won’t be controlled by computer.”

    I’m hardly high-tech, but I definitely see this coming. Hope my eyesight is good!

  203. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    Catchers don’t hold pitches for the umpire if the runner is going anyway unless they are just giving up the base.

    And think of how many strikes are lost because of this. I’ve seen some pitches called a ball right down the heart of the plate because the runner was going.

  204. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    I don’t think umpires have enough collective bargaining leverage to overcome a determined effort by MLB and the MLBPA to implement “tech-pires” if they choose to go that route.

  205. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    i think the hitter and the pitcher should decide balls and strikes

    and have a debate about it the way we did when i was a kid.

    though games could stop for twenty minutes or so unless they adopt the do over rule we used to have to get the game moving.

  206. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....the-winter

    #7 – Yankees Acquire Michael Pineda and Jose Campos for Jesus Montero and Hector Noesi
    While giving up Montero and Noesi represents a real cost to the franchise, the Yankees acquired the best young starter to change teams this winter, and they did it without putting a serious dent in their farm system. Getting five years of team control over Pineda gave them the flexibility to spend money upgrading other parts of their roster, and since Montero was likely to be a DH in New York, the downgrade from losing him to picking up a veteran to platoon with Andruw Jones isn’t all that significant. The Yankees got a lot better in a hurry, and while it cost them their best trade chip in the process, they made out better than other teams who had to pay higher prices to upgrade their rotations this winter.

    #6 -Yankees Sign Hiroki Kuroda for 1/$10M
    Remember how acquiring Pineda left the Yankees room to upgrade elsewhere? Meet elsewhere. Kuroda isn’t a spring chicken anymore, but his combination of strikes and ground balls have made him one of the game’s better starting pitchers since arriving in the U.S. With the rotation depth that they have, they don’t need to get 35 starts from Kuorda, so they can afford to deal with some nagging injuries or missed starts from time to time. Having another quality starter who can pound the zone and get hitters out from both sides of the plate will greatly increase their odds of going deep in the playoffs, and on a one year commitment, it’s hard to go wrong with a pitcher of this quality.

  207. blake February 7th, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    I can’t see balls and strikes ever being called by computer …..pretty much everything else could be though.

    I’ve said this before…..but I think a computer strike zone would make life tough for pitchers…..I think hitters would chase less pitches and really learn the strike zone making pitchers pitch in the zone more often. Part of the reason hitters swing at bad pitches at times is because of the human element of the umpire……and the uncertainty there…..if you take that away and hitters know exactly what will be a strike and won’t be then they’ll wear pitchers out over time IMO.

  208. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    I think hitters would chase less pitches and really learn the strike zone making pitchers pitch in the zone more often.

    I think it would make identifying the actual strikezone as a batter significantly more important than it is now. If the pitchers have an advantage because of the human element of the umpire, then the umpire is influencing the outcome of the game. This is what we are trying to eliminate.

  209. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    I think hitters would chase less pitches and really learn the strike zone making pitchers pitch in the zone more often. Part of the reason hitters swing at bad pitches at times is because of the human element of the umpire……and the uncertainty there…..if you take that away and hitters know exactly what will be a strike and won’t be then they’ll wear pitchers out over time IMO.

    I disagree. Pitchers will also learn the strike zone, and know how to get the most out of their pitches. Hitters aren’t disciplined enough to not swing like you’re saying. Maybe some really keen-eyed guys might walk a little more or strike out less, but a good deceptive pitch is a good deceptive pitch regardless of the zone.

    You’d see less guys getting shellacked because the umpire won’t call the strike at the knees. Works both ways.

  210. blake February 7th, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    “the Yankees acquired the best young starter to change teams this winter, and they did it without putting a serious dent in their farm system”

    Losing their only impact hitter above A ball isn’t a serious dent? Like the trade or not…..its definitely a big dent in the farm system/pool of young players

  211. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    Also, it’s possible that pitchers and pitching prospects would become a less volatile commodity? How often do you hear that a young pitcher won’t “get that pitch” and nonsense like that? How many careers could stuff like that have derailed? Sometimes an entire career can hang in the balance of one pitch, I would want to be DAMN sure that pitch is going to be called correctly.

  212. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    “…the umpire is influencing the outcome of the game. This is what we are trying to eliminate.”

    For the life of me I cannot imagine why any fair-minded sportsfan would be against anything that would insure getting it right.

  213. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    Losing their only impact hitter above A ball isn’t a serious dent? Like the trade or not…..its definitely a big dent in the farm system/pool of young players

    blake – That’s not being fair to what he’s saying there though. The Yankees are a top3 offense with or without him, and the only person removed from their farm system was Noesi. Montero was not going back to AAA. Under those constraints… no, I don’t think the farm system was impacted much at all.

  214. blake February 7th, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    “Hitters aren’t disciplined enough to not swing like you’re saying.”

    Some aren’t….but a lot are I think. Pitchers try to get hitters to swing at pitches that aren’t in the strike zone…..they work umpires to inch the zone wider over the course of a game…..taking that aspect away from them would be tough I think.

  215. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    “How often do you hear that a young pitcher won’t “get that pitch” and nonsense like that? How many careers could stuff like that have derailed? Sometimes an entire career can hang in the balance of one pitch, I would want to be DAMN sure that pitch is going to be called correctly.”

    Talk about F’d up! Just hang in there and earn your stripes, youngin’. Some day you too might get calls that others do not.

    Unbelievable.

  216. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    Batters and Pitchers would both adjust to having a proper strikezone, and they would BOTH be happier about it.

    Above ALL else… No one wants to get called out on a pitch outside the zone, or walk a guy with a pitch in it.

  217. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    Some aren’t….but a lot are I think. Pitchers try to get hitters to swing at pitches that aren’t in the strike zone…..they work umpires to inch the zone wider over the course of a game…..taking that aspect away from them would be tough I think.

    If pitchers were cool enough to have such control that they are working within the inch to widen a zone you’d see a lot less walks, Blake. I think you’re just speaking from the imagination.

  218. blake February 7th, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    “blake – That’s not being fair to what he’s saying there though. The Yankees are a top3 offense with or without him, and the only person removed from their farm system was Noesi.”

    Noesi spent 2011 in the big leagues……I lump young players in with the farm system because they are developing still…..and this trade hurts what the Yanks have in that regard offensively.

  219. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    Colby Lewis didn’t have to do any inching or establishing to get 5 inches off the plate in all his playoffs games. If robo-umpires send him back to Japan we’re better for it.

  220. blake February 7th, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    ” Blake. I think you’re just speaking from the imagination.”

    I think you are too….probably more than me because its never going to happen anyway ;)

  221. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    ” Pitchers try to get hitters to swing at pitches that aren’t in the strike zone…..they work umpires to inch the zone wider over the course of a game…”

    in semi pro ball, i used to just buy beers for the umps after the game.

    that worked really well :)

  222. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    blake – Noesi spent 2011 in the big leagues And he was going right back to AAA this year to start… it only “hurts” if you completely discredit what they got in return. The pitching staff and the lineup don’t exist in their own bubbles, they are all part of the 25-man roster.

  223. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    its never going to happen anyway

    I suppose this is the simplest way to ensure that you are wrong. :) “Never” has a funny way of turning on people…

  224. blake February 7th, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    “Anyone care to discuss Romney’s $ 100 million dollar trust fund ?”

    No

  225. blake February 7th, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    “… it only “hurts” if you completely discredit what they got in return. The pitching staff and the lineup don’t exist in their own bubbles, they are all part of the 25-man roster.”

    A more accurate way to describe it would be the Yankees strengthened one area of their farm system while weakening another……

  226. blake February 7th, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    “I suppose this is the simplest way to ensure that you are wrong. “Never” has a funny way of turning on people…”

    Not anytime soon it wont….

  227. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 7th, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    blake, that’s the same as saying that if umpires did their jobs and did them well, it wouldn’t be good for the game because hitters would wear pitchers out!

    Um, what? The strike zone is the strike zone!

  228. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    “Anyone care to discuss Romney’s $ 100 million dollar trust fund ?”

    not unless he’s planning on buying the yankees when he loses the next election.

    if he did , he’d downsize them and replace them with low price foreign workers.

  229. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    blake – Not anytime soon it wont….

    That’s just like… your opinion.. man…

    The dude does not abide.

    5 years ago there was no replay in baseball, 1 wild card and a completely unbalanced schedule.

    5 years from now, umpires’ decision making privileges could be gone.

    You just don’t know. Better to hope they fix the glaring problems than just assume the worst, No?

  230. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    if he did , he’d downsize them and replace them with low price foreign workers.

    Wouldn’t that make him a pretty good GM? :)

  231. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    if he did , he’d downsize them and replace them with low price foreign workers.

    Darvish wasn’t low price. But I’d be for replacing all of our pitchers with him.

  232. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    “A more accurate way to describe it would be the Yankees strengthened one area of their farm system while weakening another……”

    blake -

    the yankees are so strong relative to the league they could make 2-3 more bad trades and still make the playoffs.

    i hate the montero trade, but they’ll make the playoffs even if pineda never throws a pitch as a yankee.

  233. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    A quick look at the farm:

    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....08000-1038

  234. blake February 7th, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    I guesd they let Cespedes in the country….he’s supposed to be in Miami today

    MLBTR

  235. blake February 7th, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    i hate the montero trade, but they’ll make the playoffs even if pineda never throws a pitch as a yankee.”

    I agree

  236. jacksquat February 7th, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    I am 100% for the computerized strike zone. It should be possible for it to be extremely accurate with today’s technology. You still put the ump behind the plate to make all other calls, and serve as backup if the technology malfunctions.

  237. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    You guys are kiddin’ yourselves. All 100 Senators, Obama, and Romney are millionaires. Whenever Obama’s tenure is done, he will write a book for millions\$$$ more. I’m not a Romney guy, but I do realize the entire set-up is an exclusive club. Romney’s not alone in this present day Game Of Thrones. Goes back to George Washington and his cronies.

  238. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Cashman traded Montero because he knows that along with a computerized srtike zone they are going to have robo players.

    So until the transition is made pitching is more valuable.

  239. blake February 7th, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    ID,

    Sure I should never say “never”….but can you really see them taking balls and strikes away from the umpires anytime in the near future?

  240. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    Projected Scranton pitching staff.

    http://blogs.thetimes-tribune.com/yankees/?p=12124

  241. blake February 7th, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    Roy Oswalt Rumors: Tuesday

    By Tim Dierkes [February 7 at 11:34am CST]

    Yesterday we learned from Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports that the Reds remain in talks with free agent righty Roy Oswalt, though he still prefers the Cardinals or Rangers. The latest:

    The Pirates inquired about Oswalt and were willing to jump into the bidding but were rebuffed, tweets Rob Biertempfel of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. There’s “no traction” in talks between Oswalt and the Red Sox, a big league source tells WEEI’s Rob Bradford.

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com

    Poor pirates…..

  242. ET February 7th, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    “i hate the montero trade, but they’ll make the playoffs even if pineda never throws a pitch as a yankee.”

    Yes, but will they be able to hit the RH power pitching that we’ll be facing without Jesus?

    Watching A-Rod, Tex, Swisher, Jeter, Russel Munson, Gardner, Ibanez, against playoff pitching is going to be painful. Now anything can happen, but they’d be much better equipped if they had a 20 yr old with 80 power and lightening bat speed next to Cano.

  243. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    they’d be much better equipped if they had a 20 yr old with 80 power and lightening bat speed next to Cano.

    And then they can just keep losing in the playoffs because they don’t have starters. It’s a vicious cycle.

  244. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 1:32 pm

    “I guesd they let Cespedes in the country….he’s supposed to be in Miami today”

    Signing him actually saves the Yankees money beyond this season, if you believe in his talent. It would be a small step in the right direction.

  245. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 1:32 pm

    blake – I expect it sooner than later, yes. Within 15 years? That’s pretty short term for a professional sport to work out all the kinks in the sort of systems we are atalking about.

    I don’t think they will completely eliminate umpires, but either augment their ability to call the balls and strikes or use the indicator light system we were discussing earlier.

    I also expect it will be done in stages, not a complete shock to the system.

  246. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    Cespedes has been allowed in the contract, its OFAC blocking his ability to sign a major league contract that is still the issue.

  247. Cashmoney February 7th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    “John & Suzyn are with me through every rapid.”
    ———-
    not sure if that’s a good thing…but i get the drift.

  248. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    allowed in the country.

  249. Cashmoney February 7th, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    I could see roboump FTW…except we need to be vigilante about possible malfunctions and subsequent killing sprees … i think i just gave sci fi channel a new idea.

  250. RayVT February 7th, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    I think the umps should get free steroids and free Lasik eye-surgery. The Umpire in the booth for replays should be an Ump emiritus who has retired from the field.

  251. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    Yanks and two free agents

    new-york-yankees-free-agents-raul-ibanez-bill-hall-hot-stove-020612

  252. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    they’d be much better equipped if they had a 20 yr old with 80 power and lightening bat speed next to Cano.

    And then they can just keep losing in the playoffs because they don’t have starters. It’s a vicious cycle.

    ————————

    They wouldn’t if they did a better job at developing their own starters.

  253. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    Rosenthal on Cashman/Yanks situation

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....red-020612

  254. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    “But Yankees fans — and Yankees ownership — are far more interested in whether Cashman made the right call exchanging catcher Jesus Montero for right-hander Michael Pineda in a recent four-player trade.”

    As they should be. If that trade isn’t a clear win, he will have more time for dalliances.

  255. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    They wouldn’t if they did a better job at developing their own starters.
    Developing your own starters doesn’t preclude your from acquiring good ones.

    They don’t actually do any worse than most other teams in this aspect of development either. They are dead center of the pack in success rate for pitchers and hitters.

    A LoHud fallacy continues.

  256. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    “They don’t actually do any worse than most other teams in this aspect of development either. They are dead center of the pack in success rate for pitchers and hitters.”

    Why is being a dead center of the pack sufficient given their resources?

  257. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    A LoHud fallacy continues.

    Please do not misappropriate this term. The LOHUD fallacy is very specific! Make up your own fallacy!

  258. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    Cashman said when he got more autonomy in 2006: “Nobody doubts we have the most money. Once we have the right process in place, God help the rest of baseball.”

    That can’t meaning being a pack team in terms of development.

  259. Bronx Jeers February 7th, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    Cespedes is getting a tour of then new Marlins stadium tomorrow which may or may not include a ride on Spacefish Mountain.

  260. TD213 February 7th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    “That can’t meaning being a pack team in terms of development.”

    When he traded (in his own words) the next Miggy/Piazza and took a huge risk doing so, it shouldn’t be a shock to him or anyone else. When they don’t even give Montero a chance to be a C and brush him off as a DH at age 20, and would rather allot that position to a breaking-down, steroid eroded body of a player in his late 30s rather than a bat in his 20s and follow an antiquated thought process….. that is their problem.

    Nevermind Generation Trey…..

    The way they develop their talent is the problem – not the accumulation of it.

  261. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    Rich in NJ – No, and when he said that they weren’t in the middle of the pack, their farm system was atrocious.

    These things do not happen over night.

  262. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    They don’t actually do any worse than most other teams in this aspect of development either. They are dead center of the pack in success rate for pitchers.

    ————————————————-

    They don’t do worse than most other teams?? They still haven’t produced a consistent starter since Pettitte.

  263. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    GREAT NEWS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Okajima
    DelCarmen

    Serious discussions with Ibanez and Hall.

    A bunch of ex Sox chumps and a 40 year old who can’t play the field any longer. Oh joy !

  264. blake February 7th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Maybe the Marlins can take Cespedes on a tour of the empty stadium so he can get a feel for how it’ll be during games a couple or years from now.

  265. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Jake (Kalamazoo): What can you offer by way of a scouting report on Jorge Soler? Thus far I’ve seen lots of excitement, little information.

    Kevin Goldstein: Protypical RF package with plenty of athleticism and raw power. If he was an American high school kid entering the 2012 draft, he’d be a single-digit pick.

    Yankees should sign him, though I hear he may not get his OFAC clearance until around July, which means the IFA spending limits will be in effect.

  266. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    They still haven’t produced a consistent starter since Pettitte.

    They basically didn’t even try to at any point between Pettitte and Hughes… so I don’t see how you can knock their development staff for something that the front office wasn’t focused on at all.

  267. Bronx Jeers February 7th, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    Rosenthal on Cashman/Yanks situation

    ————————————————————

    Don’t encourage Randy. He’s very jealous that Ms. Meanwell didn’t approach him about donating his sperm.

  268. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    They still haven’t produced a consistent starter since Pettitte.

    They basically didn’t even try to at any point between Pettitte and Hughes… so I don’t see how you can knock their development staff for something that the front office wasn’t focused on at all.

    ————————————————

    Not a knock just pointing out a fact. But even if you want to exclude that since Cashman gained full control they’re still trying to come up with one guy.

  269. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    ID

    But it’s been six years, right? He said that before the 2006 season.

  270. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    The one guy they might end up with, Nova, wasn’t even deemed worthy of protecting by the organization. Something about that is funny. I think the Yankees have pretty good scouting, need to do better with developing. More coaches, better coaches, have the big club kick down more to the minor leagues. The article with Rookie Davis was pretty cool insight into how they do things, I’d like more of that. Why is Rookie Davis seeking out someone to talk to every day about approach? Get more of that kinda junk in there.

  271. tomingeorgia February 7th, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    Odds,
    Maybe Nova?

  272. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    Nova has to do it again. Hughes did it for a yr as well. I hope Nova continues to develop. I’m a fan of his.

  273. blake February 7th, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    “Yankees should sign him, though I hear he may not get his OFAC clearance until around July, which means the IFA spending limits will be in effect.”

    Lot of stuff I’ve read suggests Cespedes actually has more upside than Soler because he’s more likely to remain athletic….if there is a chance the new rules will go into effect before Soler is able to be signed then that’s even more reason to potentially take a gamble on Cespedes.

    If the Yanks let the new rules go into effect without doing anything to take advantage of the old system then that’ll kinda suck

  274. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    AAO – If you solely blame him for the injuries that have derailed the first wave of Hughes/Joba/IPK… and give no one credit for Nova/Roberston…

    They clearly still need to improve. I believe they are though. I wasn’t expecting it to be fixed by now, but it’s all moving int he right direction.

  275. Cashmoney February 7th, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    Anyone knows if Russell Branyan is still active? There is a guy a couple years ago who provided team with decent obp and power with his bat. I def give him an invite if he still is playing.

  276. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    They get credit for Drob but he’s a reliever the discussion started off about them developing starters.

    “I wasn’t expecting it to be fixed by now”

    True but they should be further along by now.

  277. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    True but they should be further along by now. “By now” is pretty subjective/arbitrary. They used to have the worst depleted farm system in the league, now they have one of the strongest. In 2-3 years they could be featuring a majority of their starting staff in homegrown talent. Systemic changes take time to take effect, we are just now beginning to see the fruits of those changes.

  278. pat February 7th, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    I Got A Ring….

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....57734.html

  279. jacksquat February 7th, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 2:21 pm
    Nova has to do it again. Hughes did it for a yr as well. I hope Nova continues to develop. I’m a fan of his.

    Hughes did it for less than half a year and finished poorly (2010). Nova finished an entire year with a good ERA and finished strong. At this point Nova > Hughes, no doubt. We’ll see what Hughes has in spring training.

  280. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    Nova also did it with a worse FIP/xFIP, so him repeating his success is less likely than it was for Hughes.

    This pedestal Nova has been placed on is dangerous. He is no more likely to repeat his performance than Hughes was going into last season.

  281. pat February 7th, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    Giant Break

    Weatherford5Steve Weatherford
    Lawrence Tynes and Steve Weatherford makin it hype in the mean streets of NYC #drummerboy http://pic.twitter.com/IeL6HD3l

  282. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    Hughes did it for less than half a year and finished poorly (2010).

    Nova started poorly, and finished strong. Both had pretty good single seasons.

  283. blake February 7th, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    “This pedestal Nova has been placed on is dangerous. He is no more likely to repeat his performance than Hughes was going into last season.”

    I don’t think its exactly apples to apples though….Hughes was hurt last year……if Nova comes in healthy then its pretty reasonable to think he will have a better shot to repeat his 2011 season. Hopefully they’ll both be healthy.

  284. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    If Francesa is right that they waited out the Mariners so that they could include Noesi instead of Nova, they have in effect doubled down on Nova, and especially given the forearm issue in the playoffs, I hope that turns out to be a smart bet.

  285. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    blake – No, but they both slightly over-acheived in their debut seasons as a full-time starter and neither pitched well for the entirety of the season.

    There seems to be a general consensus around here that Nova is just going to walk out onto that mound in April and start pumping out a sub-4 ERA again, and I find that to be a scary assumption is all.

  286. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    As I alluded to, ID, it doesn’t matter what the fans think, it’s what the Yankees think. They may be the ones overestimating him.

  287. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    Should be interesting watching Noesi next season after the Yankees spent a year screwing around with his development.

  288. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    If Francesa is right that they waited out the Mariners so that they could include Noesi instead of Nova, they have in effect doubled down on Nova, and especially given the forearm issue in the playoffs, I hope that turns out to be a smart bet.

    =============================

    First 4 words of your post lead me to believe we’re working with a faulty premise.

  289. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Rich in NJ – I think Nova showed enough last year to at least warrant being trusted over Noesi. Going into last season they wouldn’t have made that choice, and Nova would have been the preferred player to send out over Noesi. Let’s not forget Noesi’s value was ticked up with the reports of his winter ball velocity, so capitalizing on that wasn’t a bad move.

  290. jacksquat February 7th, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 2:49 pm
    blake – No, but they both slightly over-acheived in their debut seasons as a full-time starter and neither pitched well for the entirety of the season.

    There seems to be a general consensus around here that Nova is just going to walk out onto that mound in April and start pumping out a sub-4 ERA again, and I find that to be a scary assumption is all.

    Where did I say that? The scary assumption is you making an assumption out of something that wasn’t said. :)

    I said Nova > Hughes at this point, or even comparing Nova 2011 to Hughes 2010. I’ll take the guy who finished strong over the guy who finished on the decline. I know Nova’s FIP and that he is no guarantee.

  291. Cashmoney February 7th, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    If Francesa is right that they waited out the Mariners so that they could include Noesi instead of Nova, they have in effect doubled down on Nova, and especially given the forearm issue in the playoffs, I hope that turns out to be a smart bet.
    ——
    i think the smart bet is not to bet on Noesi at all, so in that sense… double down on Nova.

  292. austinmac February 7th, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    GB,

    How can the Cashman article be correct that he will not be fired and ownerswhip is 100% behind him? We have board member(s)who say he is as good as gone.

    You have been spot on about this from the beginning. Personal lives should be personal. I admit to an occasion or two, and a woman or two, which suggests my judgment questionable. You know what, I still did my job.

  293. blake February 7th, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    Nova’s success did seem pretty sustainable to me though…..not on an ace level but on a solid 3 or 4 level which is really all they needs from him. If he continues to throw ground balls and improve his K rate with an improved slider then it seems sustainable…..Hughes has issues with health and also with about pitch….currently he doesn’t sink the ball and he doesn’t have as good of secondary pitches as Nova does…..

  294. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    “They don’t actually do any worse than most other teams in this aspect of development either. They are dead center of the pack in success rate for pitchers and hitters. ”

    I’d like to know is there is any correlation between “resources” in whatever that master list is?

    Then I’d like to know if there is any historic trends of note?

    Meaning do more resources equate to higher standing on the list?

    And has anyone one team being excelling in this area for a statistically significant extended period of time?

    I think in the interest of fairness, let’s identify the model organizations, removing cyclical success and luck from the equation, and see how the Yankees stack up to THAT.

    Anyone game?

  295. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    “First 4 words of your post lead me to believe we’re working with a faulty premise.”

    I probably should have preceded my post with “FWIW,” but do you doubt his claim?

    ID

    Trusted short-term v. upside mid- to long-term? If so, I hate that strategy because I think Noesi has more upside.

  296. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    jacksquat – The scary assumption is you making an assumption out of something that wasn’t said.

    Assuming I was responding to you in the first place is equally scary. Guilty conscious?

  297. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    “Should be interesting watching Noesi next season after the Yankees spent a year screwing around with his development.”

    Again, in the interest of knowledge, is there any historical, empirical data that suggests a more successful path/method of “development”?

  298. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:03 pm

    stuckey – LGY posted the article yesterday, have at it. Don’t ask other people to do your research for you :p

    do you doubt his claim?
    rich – I doubt Francessa has any information that is not extremely public knowledge… that’d be the first time I heard they held out Nova to get Noesi in there.

  299. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    Got a 3PM appt. Later.

  300. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    Anyone game?

    ——–

    I’ll read it if you write it.

  301. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    MLB MLB
    SOURCES: Cuban OF Yoenis Cespedes receives travel visa; scheduled to meet with @Marlins Wednesday … http://atmlb.com/A15zqW

  302. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    IR… have a link?

    Would love to be schooled on this topic is there is indeed reasonable conclusions to be made.

  303. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    stuckey – I believe it was here:
    http://mobile.royalsreview.com.....-prospects

  304. jacksquat February 7th, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:01 pm
    jacksquat – The scary assumption is you making an assumption out of something that wasn’t said.

    Assuming I was responding to you in the first place is equally scary. Guilty conscious?

    You had previously repsonded to me on the subject in a similar manner, so I think my assumption is pretty sound. :)

  305. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:12 pm

    jacksquat – Then don’t quote a different response to a different part of the conversation and pick it apart as the original statement? :) My comment to blake was in no way making assumptions about what you said, which is why it wasn’t directed at you :)

  306. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Thanks IR, I’ll digest the whole thing later, but my immediate takeaway from that is the Yankees were “middle of the pack” between 1990 and 2003, correct?

  307. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    “Again, in the interest of knowledge, is there any historical, empirical data that suggests a more successful path/method of “development”?”

    Anyone…?

  308. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    “First 4 words of your post lead me to believe we’re working with a faulty premise.”

    I probably should have preceded my post with “FWIW,” but do you doubt his claim?

    ==============================================

    I doubt Francessa actually has that information. There’s been little evidence over the years that he is as tied into the Yankees as he makes himself sound. Especially with Torre long gone.

    I’d be kind of surprised if Cashman allowed the difference between Nova and Noesi to gum up the works on any deal he’s interested in making.

  309. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    stuckey – Yes, they didn’t include data from 2003 forward because most of those players have “not used up their cost controlled years” yet… as it was stated in the article. Seems to make sense to cut those players out… it does limit the sample a little but 13 years of prospects is good enough of a start to any discussion :)

  310. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    STUCKEY

    Use the eyes of Stick Michael. No charge for that advice.

  311. jacksquat February 7th, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 2:39 pm
    Nova also did it with a worse FIP/xFIP, so him repeating his success is less likely than it was for Hughes.

    This pedestal Nova has been placed on is dangerous. He is no more likely to repeat his performance than Hughes was going into last season.

    Ok then. :)

    I wasn’t placing Nova on a pedestal. I am aware of his FIP. I’d take his 2011 performance over Hughes’ 2010 performance because Nova finished with improving performance and Hughes finished with declining performance.

    Sounds kind of similar to my reply to your other post, huh? ;)

  312. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    I’m pretty comfortable saying relegating starting pitchers to the bullpen is not the path to success for developing starting pitchers.

  313. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    I doubt Francessa actually has that information. There’s been little evidence over the years that he is as tied into the Yankees as he makes himself sound. Especially with Torre long gone.

    —————————————

    I don’t think he’s 100% right in everything he says but he does have access to those within the organization.

  314. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    IR,

    Yeah, I understand the methodology. I’m just making sure there is no data being used here that places the Yankees success or lack thereof since 2003 in context?

    I’d loathe to speak out of ignorance and just want to be certain I have the same knowledge others here have and are citing on their arguments.

  315. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    I’m pretty comfortable saying relegating starting pitchers to the bullpen is not the path to success for developing starting pitchers.

    ——————————

    I agree completely

    *waits for someone to say the Rays put Price in the pen*

  316. Joe from Long Island February 7th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    lgy – i seem to recall david cone saying the exact opposite, about young starters going to the pen when first called up. i could be mis-remembering, but i think he said that on yes, when hughes was sent to the pen in 09.

  317. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    “I’m pretty comfortable saying relegating starting pitchers to the bullpen is not the path to success for developing starting pitchers.”

    Fair enough.

    Based on?

    Historical case study?

    Or intuitive reasoning?

  318. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Joe from Long Island February 7th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    lgy – i seem to recall david cone saying the exact opposite, about young starters going to the pen when first called up. i could be mis-remembering, but i think he said that on yes, when hughes was sent to the pen in 09.

    ————————–

    Getting your feet wet is one thing but bouncing back and forth yr after yr is the issue.

  319. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    austinmac February 7th, 2012 at 2:58 pm
    GB,

    How can the Cashman article be correct that he will not be fired and ownerswhip is 100% behind him? We have board member(s)who say he is as good as gone.

    You have been spot on about this from the beginning. Personal lives should be personal. I admit to an occasion or two, and a woman or two, which suggests my judgment questionable. You know what, I still did my job.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Mac,

    Hope all is going well done in The Hill Country? Love that city.

    What Cashman does during his own time is none of my business, as long as he continues to find and sign talent. His wife is the one he needs to answer to. Makes me wonder how people can be on here day and night and continue to function on their jobs.
    Continues to amaze how all 30 teams have continued to miss out on mining LoHud for front office wizards. They continue to ignore all of the free intelligence growing at the grass roots.

  320. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    Stat heads once again killin’ the action around here.

  321. Joe from Long Island February 7th, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    yeah, the rays sent price to the pen, and it didn’t seem to bother maddon, the rays, or price. he had an off year last year, but i’d be surprised if he didn’t have a good year this year.

  322. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:24 pm

    jacksquat – There, now I can follow what you are saying and you don’t have to tell me to stop making assumptions :)

    As for your assumption, Putting Nova, a prospect who came out of no where and over-acheieved any expectation for him last year… ahead of Hughes after one extremely similar season is a bit much, that’s all… if I were a betting man I wouldn’t put the house on it.

  323. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    Price spent a couple of months in the pen there is a difference.

  324. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:18 pm
    I’m pretty comfortable saying relegating starting pitchers to the bullpen is not the path to success for developing starting pitchers.

    ———————————————————————–

    Could you share that with the Rangers.

    They seem to be doing it as well.

  325. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    stuckey – Well you are bordering on hitting their nail on their head… people here want to claim Cashman’s success/bust as a GM and developing players based solely on players that have not even played their cost-controlled years yet. At what point does it become proper to evaluate a GM’s handling of a prospect or his development?

    Waiting until their first FA contract seems to be a good start.

  326. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    yeah, the rays sent price to the pen, and it didn’t seem to bother maddon, the rays, or price. he had an off year last year, but i’d be surprised if he didn’t have a good year this year.

    —————–

    David Price has pitched 9.2 regular season innings out of the pen in his career.

    No comparison to what the Yankees have done with Hughes, Joba, and Noesi.

  327. Joe from Long Island February 7th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    odds – just getting here, but i saw someone comment on noesi, a starter, getting screwed by going to pen last year, and i thought that was the topic.

  328. blake February 7th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    They brought Price up for the playoffs in the pen but immediately send him back to AAA the following year to start. Also….Price actually had better peripherals last year than the year before……more ks, less walks

  329. jacksquat February 7th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    Price had a grand total of 4 relief appearances in 2008, and one of those was 5.1 innings and 87 pitches. I don’t think he’s a good comparison.

  330. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Could you share that with the Rangers.

    They seem to be doing it as well.

    ———————–

    With who? CJ Wilson?

  331. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    Joe from Long Island

    You remember correctly.

  332. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    Joe from Long Island February 7th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    odds – just getting here, but i saw someone comment on noesi, a starter, getting screwed by going to pen last year, and i thought that was the topic.

    ———————————

    Fair enough

  333. Joe from Long Island February 7th, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    so, what should be the limit for a young starter to spend time in the bullpen? what’s the data in support of that? just trying to pick up something….

  334. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    “At what point does it become proper to evaluate a GM’s handling of a prospect or his development?”

    IR, I’m not even wading into whether I agree with the methodology or its conclusions yet.

    I’m just looking for a common frame of reference.

    All I’m asking is what IS the methodology and what are the conclusions?

  335. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    Fair enough.

    Based on?

    Historical case study?

    Or intuitive reasoning?

    —————————–

    Other than CJ Wilson, what other frontline starters in the game today have spent extended time in the bullpen?

  336. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
    Could you share that with the Rangers.

    They seem to be doing it as well.

    ———————–

    With who? CJ Wilson?

    ————————————

    Yes. And Feliz this year.

    I think the Twins started Santana in the BP also.

  337. blake February 7th, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    What the Yanks did with Noesi last year would have made more sense if he had been placed in a more important role……I never understood why they wasted a gear of his service time……and screwed up his innings to make him do a job Mitre or any other veteran journeyman coukd have done……at least with Hughes he was the set up guy and was pitching important innings.

  338. DONNYBROOK February 7th, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    Oh great. Data request. “Say good night Gracie”.

  339. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    Other than CJ Wilson, what other frontline starters in the game today have spent extended time in the bullpen?

    =======================

    Santana did, but in general there have not been a lot.

  340. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    “David Price has pitched 9.2 regular season innings out of the pen in his career.

    No comparison to what the Yankees have done with Hughes, Joba, and Noesi.”

    LGY, excellent point. What empirical benchmarks are you using as a basis for your comparison?

  341. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    Yes. And Feliz this year.

    ———————

    Feliz counts as a success before he has thrown a single pitch as a starter??

  342. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    ML experience of any kind can be useful to a pitcher to learn which pitches of his are effective and which aren’t… but you don’t want to have too many “inning jumps” or back-and-forth with them, it will mess with the players stamina.

    i doubt anyone would argue against changing the amount of work you do every year (regardless of what that work is) effecting your stamina.

  343. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    LGY

    The RS are doing it with Bard also.

  344. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    LGY

    The RS are doing it with Bard also.

    ————————

    Do you have a time machine or something?

  345. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    Santana did, but in general there have not been a lot.

    And even he averaged 2+ innings per appearance.

  346. blake February 7th, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    “Other than CJ Wilson, what other frontline starters in the game today have spent extended time in the bullpen?”

    Wainwright

  347. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
    Yes. And Feliz this year.

    ———————

    Feliz counts as a success before he has thrown a single pitch as a starter??

    ——————————————————

    I thought we were talking about using starters in the BP and the transitioning to a SP.

    I didn’t realize you were talking about being a success.

  348. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    The RS are doing it with Bard also.

    I think he is looking for pitchers that have been successful using this strategy, not pitchers that will be using this method in the future.

  349. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    Guess we gotta add Wainwright to that list of bullpen to starter guys.

  350. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    I thought we were talking about using starters in the BP and the transitioning to a SP.

    Talking about whether it is a good or bad method of development. I don’t think there is any sure fire way to develop a pitcher, but I’d like to see a no bullpen approach atleast for the next wave of guys.

  351. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    Wainwright also just had TJS…

  352. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    So we have Wilson, Santana, and Wainwright. Are we missing anyone?

  353. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    LGY

    You were talking about how they messed up Noesi by putting him in the pen so that’s where I got that from.

  354. blake February 7th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    “February 7, 2012 at 3:38 pm Wainwright also just had TJS…”

    So do a lot of guys that have never been relievers…..

  355. blake February 7th, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    “So we have Wilson, Santana, and Wainwright. Are we missing anyone?”

    Uhm…..John Smoltz :)

  356. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    Masterson could be a bullpen to starter success story but he’s not there yet.

  357. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    Guess we gotta add Wainwright to that list of bullpen to starter guys.

    Wainwright got 1 season with 75 IP, and pitched 182 in the minors right before it. Thats an interesting progression. I wonder if it is more advantageous to max a guy out in the minors, then have him relieve for a large amount, and then start him.

  358. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    blake – Sure, lots of guys have TJS… including 2 of the 3 examples given so far have had major arm surgery and Wilson has only been starting for 2 seasons…

  359. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 3:41 pm

    Wainwright also just had TJS…

    ==========================

    No telling whether a correlation exists there. He closed in ’06 then had 4 seasons as a starter.

  360. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:39 pm
    So we have Wilson, Santana, and Wainwright. Are we missing anyone?

    ————————————————————————–

    My guess is probably, yes.

    If someone spent the time I’m sure they would find many more.

  361. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Uhm…..John Smoltz

    ———————

    Executive decision. Smoltz doesn’t count because he was already an awesome starter before going to the bullpen.

  362. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    Schilling spent two yrs in the pen in 90 and 91 does he count?

  363. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    Masterson could be a bullpen to starter success story but he’s not there yet.

    He started atleast 9 games in every season though, also had 150 inning high in the minors. Didnt have the kind of jump Hughes or Joba got.

  364. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    Hits and misses on top pitching prospects 2003-2006

    http://www.minorleagueball.com.....rough-2006

  365. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    I imagine if you really looked, you would find that a majority of successful major league starters spent some part of some season in the bullpen.

    I don’t think there is any correlation for anything to be drawn from this entire conversation, though.

    Every arm is different, and should be treated as such.

  366. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:18 pm
    I’m pretty comfortable saying relegating starting pitchers to the bullpen is not the path to success for developing starting pitchers.

    ————————————————————————-

    I may be misunderstanding the thought process here but as I read this it refers to success in “developing” starting pitchers.

  367. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    He started atleast 9 games in every season though, also had 150 inning high in the minors. Didnt have the kind of jump Hughes or Joba got.

    —————–

    True.

  368. Tom in N.J. February 7th, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    Braden Looper?

  369. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    Blooper is not a success story :)

  370. stanzy February 7th, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    Looks like the conversation has moved on, but what about technological assistance (assistance only) on balls and strikes. I.e., something like the light in the helmet idea mentioned above, but with the home plate ump having the final say. A computer won’t be perfect, especially since the strike zone is based on the batter’s body, and it’s probably impossible to set up a system to account for everything, due to obstructed views of different parts of the zone. (E.g., if a pitch passes the front of the plate just outside the side boundary of the plate, but is moving enough back over the plate to clip the back corner, could you guarantee a system of cameras/lasers/sensors would catch that, when the batters hands/arms/head/shoulder are all in motion and could obscure the view?) So let the umpire be the judge, but give him some guidance from the tracking system. A simple system would be color-coded lights in the helmet indicating the call and degree of certainty. A more complex system would be some sort of heads-up display. Such a system would have multiple benefits: 1) it would assist the ump in making the “right” call; 2) it would serve to train the ump’s eye, by continuously reinforcing the “real” strike zone; and 3) it would preserve the “human element” that many hold dear, and which I’d argue is actually necessary. Also, if for any reason the readings were slow or consistently inaccurate during a particular game, the ump could just carry on, and keep the game moving. It would be transparent to the players and the fans.

    People seem to have a lot of faith in technology, but technology isn’t perfect. Blending technology and human judgement in a way that is nearly invisible to the players and fans would seem to be the best approach.

    On another point, there absolutely should be a rules ump on the crew (but off-field) who is not only responsible for being knowledgeable about the rules, but who would have access to a rule “book” (device). There should never again be a situation where the manager knows a rule, but the umps don’t, so they make something up. That same rules ump could also be responsible for keeping an eye on the performance of the system(s) being used to assist with calls during the game, to make sure a poorly calibrated system doesn’t ruin a game.

  371. dogface February 7th, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    Wainwright got 1 season with 75 IP, and pitched 182 in the minors right before it. Thats an interesting progression. I wonder if it is more advantageous to max a guy out in the minors, then have him relieve for a large amount, and then start him.

    ===================================

    My recollection was that he was not doing especially well in the minors leading up to that switch to the pen. I mentioned he was closing for the Cards, but he really wasn’t til the very end of the ’06 season and then the playoffs. Maybe the time in the pen served to help him find something he may have lost in his last couple of minor league seasons.

  372. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:51 pm

    but is moving enough back over the plate to clip the back corner

    The strikezone is established on the front edge of the plate, no where else.

  373. Tom in N.J. February 7th, 2012 at 3:51 pm

    Pedro Martinez?

  374. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    He was pitching in the PCL when he ran into his troubles, I imagine it was just the offense heavy nature of the PCL that spooked the cards.

  375. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    “Feliz counts as a success before he has thrown a single pitch as a starter??

    “Do you have a time machine or something?”

    I have to stick up for LGY, he’s 100% correct.

    Last thing we want to do it draw a conclusion without any data to support said conclusion.

  376. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    what if randy saw feliz throw a magic baseball?

  377. fiveironfromfenway February 7th, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    Bill Hall – come on down!!

  378. blake February 7th, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    Yankees Sign Bill Hall

    By Tim Dierkes [February 7 at 2:51pm CST]

    The Yankees have signed utility infielder Bill Hall, based on his tweet, “IT’S OFFICIAL IM A YANKEE!!!!!!!! #IwannaRing!!!!” Presumably, Hall signed a minor league deal. Hall is a client of Gaylord Sports Management.
    MLBTR

  379. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    Last thing we want to do it draw a conclusion without any data to support said conclusion.

    ———————-

    Valiant effort.

  380. TheStraw February 7th, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    MLBTR reports yanks sign Bill Hall, based on Hall’s tweet.

  381. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    Pedro Martinez

    Pretty good, but 40 of his 60 appearances were for better than an inning.

  382. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    oh boy… i dont think i’m sticking around for bill hall fallout. catch you guys tomorrow.

  383. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    And Pedro had 177 IP in the minors

  384. Tom in N.J. February 7th, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Having young pitchers ‘develop’ at the major league level in the bullpen seemed to be the way it was done, historically speaking that is. Granted those were the days of bonus babies, four man rotations, and undefined bullpen roles. It’s hard to say when, or why, it changed. Or even if that way is better. It is another way the game has changed…

  385. TheStraw February 7th, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Guess this spells the end for Chavy in pinstripes.

  386. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Roy Halladay – 1999 GP 36 GS 18 147IP

  387. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    If the Mets hadn’t bounced Ryan between the bullpen and rotation or the Yanks hadn’t started Guidry in the bullpen, they may have learned something about pitching.

  388. TheStraw February 7th, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    Or maybe he’s just this year’s Ronnie Belliard.

  389. pat February 7th, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    From Bill Hall

    http://instagr.am/p/Gt-pYzIYuv/

  390. pat February 7th, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Yankees confim Hall as minor league deal with ST invite.

  391. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Roy Halladay – 1999 GP 36 GS 18 147IP

    Also the season before he completely imploded and had to be rebuilt in low A :twisted:

  392. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Halladay had to be sent back down all the way to A ball and built back up. Gonna have to reject that submission.

  393. Joe from Long Island February 7th, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    so the yanks screwed up ron guidry? man…..

    now just watch, they’ll probably stick bill hall on the bench, and screw up his development.

  394. TD213 February 7th, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Yanks will never send a prospect to A-ball to rebuild, they will stash them in the pen instead when things don’t work as a starter

  395. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    “Halladay had to be sent back down all the way to A ball and built back up. Gonna have to reject that submission.”

    Jf says that was the year BEFORE. So he had that year immediately after he was rebuilt.

    Seems to me he’d REALLY count in that case, no?

  396. 108 stitches February 7th, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    If Bill Hall makes the team out of spring training, he’ll likely replace Ramiro Pena.

  397. TD213 February 7th, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    Bill Hall is a good lockerroom guy and good friends with CC

    Nice addition to the bench

  398. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    What

    No, your season is the season before! He imploded right after 10 ERA in 2000. 2001 pitched 170 innings from Low A to the majors.

  399. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    Jf says that was the year BEFORE. So he had that year immediately after he was rebuilt.

    Seems to me he’d REALLY count in that case, no?

    ———————-

    No. Face said the bullpen was the year before he was sent down to A ball.

  400. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    Its difficult to find innings for a starter in the pen nowadays. If a starter is in the pen they should be throwing 2 or 3 innings per outings. But with all the loogys and roogys and setup guys and garbage time guys, theres not enough room for it.

  401. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    JF, okay. I misunderstood, “Also the season before he completely imploded and had to be rebuilt in low A.”

    I read it as “Also, the season before he completely imploded and had to be rebuilt in low A.”

    Halladay goes in the neg column. I’m fine with that, I just want to get it right.

  402. blake February 7th, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    “If Bill Hall makes the team out of spring training, he’ll likely replace Ramiro Pena.”

    I don’t think Pena will be on the team unless they trade Nunez.

  403. DonnieBBall February 7th, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    Ron Guidry pitched out of the bullpen

  404. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    Its difficult to find innings for a starter in the pen nowadays. If a starter is in the pen they should be throwing 2 or 3 innings per outings. But with all the loogys and roogys and setup guys and garbage time guys, theres not enough room for it.

    ———————-

    Yeah, that ties into Tom’s point at 3:58. Bullpens are so different now it’s difficult to compare pitchers coming up through the bullpen today vs guys who did it back in the day.

  405. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    It’s a minor league contract. NYYs will still look for a left handed bat. Ibanez, Chavez, Matsui and Demon will be the most likely choices.

  406. Tom in N.J. February 7th, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    Kenny Rogers.

    http://www.baseball-reference......ke01.shtml

  407. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    Ron Guidry pitched out of the bullpen

    End of a different era, not really applicable. He was pitching out of the bullpen 35 years ago in AAA.

  408. austinmac February 7th, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    GB,

    All is good here. It is the winter that makes summer almost bearable.

    This board not only has many overly qualified GMs, but also many who can see the future.

    I think Hall is a good minor league signing. He can’t be worse than Pena.

  409. Benny Blanco February 7th, 2012 at 4:14 pm

    Is hall a client of Gaylord sports? or Gaylord Focker? :)

  410. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    Joe from Long Island February 7th, 2012 at 4:03 pm
    so the yanks screwed up ron guidry? man…..

    now just watch, they’ll probably stick bill hall on the bench, and screw up his development

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    afternoon, Joe

    Hope all is well with you and Mrs. Joe. What’s for supper? “Killer” and I are starving.

    Pity about Guidry. I had high hopes about him amounting to something.

  411. pat February 7th, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    AndrewMarchandAndrew Marchand
    I was just told that Hall signing will have no impact on if they sign Eric Chavez

  412. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Fukudome is still out there, sign him.

  413. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 3:57 pm
    Pedro Martinez

    Pretty good, but 40 of his 60 appearances were for better than an inning.

    ————————————————————————-

    Isn’t that what they call long relief?

  414. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    “Yeah, that ties into Tom’s point at 3:58. Bullpens are so different now it’s difficult to compare pitchers coming up through the bullpen today vs guys who did it back in the day.”

    I genuinely think that’s true too.

    Cutting through the general animosity that inevitably winds up developing between myself and some others here, I think it is a fair and perfectly reasonable question to ask if some of our intuitive reason is supported by fact?

    Were you to ask me my pure opinion of whether I think what happened to Noesi is good for a pitcher, I’d likely say no too, but I’ve been wrong enough to learn to always challenge my own assumptions.

    I come up with responses to stuff here all the time that I think immediately sounds reasonable, I check it to make sure, and find I’m wrong.

  415. pat February 7th, 2012 at 4:20 pm

    Hall- $600K + incentives + April 4th out if he doesn’t make ML team

  416. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    austinmac February 7th, 2012 at 4:13 pm
    GB,

    All is good here. It is the winter that makes summer almost bearable.

    This board not only has many overly qualified GMs, but also many who can see the future.

    I think Hall is a good minor league signing. He can’t be worse than Pena.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Mac, it did get a bit warm in the summertime. Always enjoyed a good tip in Lake Austin or down at Hippy Hollow. I haven’t seen anything on Hall’s contract, neither the cost or whether he gets an out if he doesn’t make the roster out of ST or by a certain date. still, I’d prefer getting Chavez back.

  417. yanks 27 February 7th, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    Joelsherman1 Assuming #Yankees sign LH DH type (Ibanez/Damon) then 25th man likely fight among Pena, Dickerson and newly signed Billy Hall

  418. lounge lizard February 7th, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    #6 -Yankees Sign Hiroki Kuroda for 1/$10M
    Remember how acquiring Pineda left the Yankees room to upgrade elsewhere? Meet elsewhere.

    _________________________________________________________

    Not only false but a 180 from the truth.

    If the Yanks had traded a $10M DH player to Seattle and had received a Montero who could fill the DH role at minimum salary, that would have created the payroll room to sign Kuroda.

    As it is, rather than filling the DH role at minimum, they will probably pay an addtional $5M in payroll to the combination of Jones and the lefty part of the platoon.

  419. Benny Blanco February 7th, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    didn’t Cone say on YES that it was a good thing for pitchers to learn how to pitch out of the bullpen with the purpose of becoming a better starting pitcher?

  420. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    Isn’t that what they call long relief?

    Sure, but the Yankees seem to be averse to that type of treatment for prospects in the bullpen. Joba and Hughes were 1 inning setup men. Noesi only got 60 innings and he spent a lot of time in the majors. 1.8 innings per appearance. Go longer with these guys, they need innings.

    But as I said, I don’t think there is a set 100% fool proof way to develop players. my preference is that banuelos and betances spend 0 time in the pen, if only to see if they could be effective without it.

  421. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    Benny Blanco February 7th, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    didn’t Cone say on YES that it was a good thing for pitchers to learn how to pitch out of the bullpen with the purpose of becoming a better starting pitcher?

    ——————

    Yea to get their feet wet

  422. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    didn’t Cone say on YES that it was a good thing for pitchers to learn how to pitch out of the bullpen with the purpose of becoming a better starting pitcher?

    Yes, but so what?

  423. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 4:29 pm

    It’s one thing to put a guy in the pen to gain experience and cap innings but a team shouldn’t believe what Cashman said yrs ago which was we have starters(Phil and Joba) that can relieve.

  424. blake February 7th, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    Offer Manny a camp invite and minor league deal

  425. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    Jerkface

    But as I said, I don’t think there is a set 100% fool proof way to develop players. my preference is that banuelos and betances spend 0 time in the pen, if only to see if they could be effective without it.

    ————————————————————————————————

    I can agree with that.

    I was having trouble accepting a blanket statement on how to develop pitchers.

  426. Bronx Jeers February 7th, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    Incentives based on plate appearances starting at 50k for 100 and 50k for each subsequent 50.

  427. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    Oh Boy, Bill Hall !!!!!!!!!! Exciting news…………NOT.

  428. yanks 27 February 7th, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    “Offer Manny a camp invite and minor league deal”

    Better than Ibanez

  429. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    blake February 7th, 2012 at 4:30 pm
    Offer Manny a camp invite and minor league deal

    ——————————————-

    Too Baltimore.

  430. incident_57 February 7th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    Ibanez vs. Chavez? Who should they sign?

  431. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    As it is, rather than filling the DH role at minimum, they will probably pay an addtional $5M in payroll to the combination of Jones and the lefty part of the platoon.

    And not spend $15m/year on Pineda’s roster spot… you can’t ignore half of the story just so you can be angry about it.

    That article is also written by a Mariners fan.

  432. blake February 7th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    If Manny doesn’t make the team you lose nothing and get to see him cut his hair .

  433. Tom in N.J. February 7th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    Manny has to serve a 50 game ban, right? Plus he cannot go down to the minors while suspended, I think.

  434. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    I was having trouble accepting a blanket statement on how to develop pitchers.

    There are a lot of successful pitchers that didnt develop in the minors, and some that did, and some that relieved a bit, and some that didn’t. Its why I can’t say there is a definitive way. One of the keys is probably avoiding injuries, but the Yankees had to draft injury risks to get talent. So that kind of snuffs their development plans I think.

  435. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    And not spend $15m/year on Pineda’s roster spot

    They are already spending 15 million a year on Pineda’s spot.

    Without Pineda they have CC, Nova, Kuroda, Garcia, Burnett/Hughes. Less roster crunch.

  436. blake February 7th, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    Yea I don’t know what the deal with that is….if he still has to serve the suspension then forget it.

  437. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    jerkface – And less likely to have 5 good starters…

  438. yanks 27 February 7th, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    “Without Pineda they have CC, Nova, Kuroda, Garcia, Burnett/Hughes. Less roster crunch.”

    And they have their best young bat available to infuse the offense.

  439. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    If the Yankees believed that Nova/Hughes/Burnett/Garcia was going to work, they probably wouldn’t have traded for a starter and signed another. There must be some reason they did this, assuming they are just idiots is… silly.

  440. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    jerkface – And less likely to have 5 good starters…

    Hm, sure but they’d still have had Noesi, Phelps, Warren, Mitchell, and whoever was stuck in the BP on backup duty. They don’t need 5 good starters for the playoffs, and the rotation I listed is definitely good enough to make the playoffs with.

  441. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:35 pm
    I was having trouble accepting a blanket statement on how to develop pitchers.

    There are a lot of successful pitchers that didnt develop in the minors, and some that did, and some that relieved a bit, and some that didn’t. Its why I can’t say there is a definitive way. One of the keys is probably avoiding injuries, but the Yankees had to draft injury risks to get talent. So that kind of snuffs their development plans I think.

    ———————————————————————-

    That’s also why it can’t be said with certainty that Pineda can’t develop a CU while pitching in the MIL.

  442. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    yanks 27 February 7th, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    “Without Pineda they have CC, Nova, Kuroda, Garcia, Burnett/Hughes. Less roster crunch.”

    And they have their best young bat available to infuse the offense.

    ——————————

    Now Cano doesn’t have a running mate in the line-up that’s under 30

  443. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    jerkface – Yes all of these things make sense from where we are sitting, yet…

    There must be more to this than we will ever know.

  444. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    If the Yankees believed that Nova/Hughes/Burnett/Garcia was going to work, they probably wouldn’t have traded for a starter and signed another. There must be some reason they did this, assuming they are just idiots is… silly.

    Don’t think anyone said anything about them being idiots. And they signed Garcia. Why did they have to get 2 more pitchers? They thought Garcia was a good enough bet to hedge 5 million on him.

  445. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    Signing or trading for 1 more in addition to Garcia should have been enough, it makes the 5th spot a competition between Burnett and Hughes. Now we have Garcia/Burnett/Hughes battling for the 5th spot and money talks, so I am having trouble thinking of a situation where burnett or garcia are in the pen. Hughes seems ticketed for AAA.

    Spring training will be very interesting.

  446. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    Remember when everyone was mad at the Yankees for not making many moves…. and then they dealt Montero?

    I’m perfectly satisfied with Bill Hall on a minor league deal.

    Sorta reminds me of Shakespeare and now I’m going to be running around all day saying, ‘There! Art thou satisfied?!’

  447. Against All Odds February 7th, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    Hughes seems ticketed for AAA.

    ——————————

    Or the pen

  448. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    jerkface – I think the timing of the way the offseason unfolded for the Yankees had a lot to do with them ending up with so many pitchers. if they knew they could get Pineda for Montero they probably would have signed Beltran or something similar… wouldnt have signed Garcia… could have moved faster or slower on Kuroda depending…

    Having “too many pitchers” is just not something I will ever consider a problem. Any “extras” come the trade deadline can be moved for pieces that fit better.

  449. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    Hughes seems ticketed for AAA.

    ———————

    I’d actually prefer this.

    Injuries are bound to happen and with Noesi in Seattle they don’t have an obvious 6th starter on the 40 man roster.

  450. lounge lizard February 7th, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    Saying that acquiring Pineda “created room” to sign Kuroda makes no more sense than saying that signing Freddy Garcia at $5M created the room to sign Kuroda because $5M is $10M less than $15M.

  451. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Sorta reminds me of Shakespeare and now I’m going to be running around all day saying, ‘There! Art thou satisfied?!’

    ————————————————————–

    I think you know the answer to that.

    A great big NO. :D:

  452. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Having “too many pitchers” is just not something I will ever consider a problem. Any “extras” come the trade deadline can be moved for pieces that fit better.

    I think having too many pitchers is a problem when 2 of them make 20+ million combined and are veterans. Garcia is no longer garbage heap Garcia the spring invite. He is the 5 million dollar man that was the 2nd best starter for the Yankees last year. And AJ Burnett is the 16 million dollar guy whose job is basically guaranteed if his stinking up the joint yet still getting playoff starts is any indication.

  453. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    My bad. Didn’t realize Phelps was on the 40 man roster. Still prefer Hughes as that guy.

  454. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    Maine, I’m gonna add that catchphrase to my LoHud lingo every chance I get.

    I wish work was over so I could hit the objective pipe..

  455. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    I think the timing of the way the offseason unfolded for the Yankees had a lot to do with them ending up with so many pitchers.

    Yes I agree that the timing of how deals worked out was probably a factor in the teams current composition. Garcia signed so early that I can see Cashman regretting that.

  456. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    I dont think that the money Garcia makes would stop them from sending to the pen/cutting him outright… I don’t think the money they spend on Burnett even factors into decisions anymore…

    Hughes/Nova are destined for AAA, whoever isn’t ready out of ST…

    They have obvious 6th and 7th starters on the roster, and 4 players with either minor league or bullpen options for 2 spots. No need to rush and move one of them at this point. Wait til it shakes out and you have too many of them before you worry about moving one.

  457. austinmac February 7th, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    Bill Hall is only 32. He should, we can hope, be able to be a capable back up. I don’t see where that leaves Chavez, as I sure don’t think he hits with enough pop to regularly hit. Plus, he is too unhealthy to do anything regularly. Last year he got hurt running to second.

    As we heard they were interested in Hall, we have heard their interest in Ibanez. I think he is the next and last signing.

  458. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    If the Yanks biggest advantage is money than they should send AJ to the pen and pay him what they owe. Wouldn’t that be another way to flex those monetary muscles?

    I know the argument then becomes that his value decreases and no one will take him but thats basically where we’re at right now, so for once I’d like to see them eat money without having the pitcher punch a wall, crash his Porsche, or be a foreigner.

  459. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    Kershaw avoids arbitration for 2 seasons with a 2/19 deal. Given how good he is I am surprised he took such a relative sweet heart deal. Thought he could get to around lincecum levels.

  460. Shame Spencer February 7th, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Bill Hall is only 32. He should, we can hope, be able to be a capable back up. I don’t see where that leaves Chavez, as I sure don’t think he hits with enough pop to regularly hit.

    ——————

    Why do I feel like the Yanks saying it doesnt eliminate Chavez is another way of saying, ‘Hey Johnny, for Pete’s sake lower your asking price!!’

  461. MaineYankee February 7th, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Garcia signed so early that I can see Cashman regretting that.
    —————————————————————–

    I think when he signed Garcia he was “distracted”.

  462. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Shocked he took a 2 year deal (kershaw) where with one more good season he could have easily gotten upwards of $15mil in arbitration.

  463. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    I dont think that the money Garcia makes would stop them from sending to the pen/cutting him outright… I don’t think the money they spend on Burnett even factors into decisions anymore…

    Burnett’s salary is obviously a factor, as he continued to make starts for the Yankees despite a second year in a row where he was atrocious and then started a playoff game. I can’t think of a situation where the Yankees ate a 5 million dollar salary on an established pitcher to shuffle them to long man when they were effective the season before.

    They can’t trade Garcia until june.

  464. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    They are definitely not cutting Garcia either. They arent paying him 5 million to go pitch for the Red Sox.

  465. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:04 pm

    Something unexpected will happen in spring training and the excess pitching will sort itself out.

  466. yanks 27 February 7th, 2012 at 5:04 pm

    These are the new Yankees…. they are not just going to discard a guy making $5 mil for no reason.

    Not to mention, why doesn’t he deserve the chance to prove he can continue last year’s success? I know people automatically think Nova/Garcia are going to take big steps backs… but they deserve the chance to prove their worth based on their work last year.

  467. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    ‘Hall can opt out of his deal if he isn’t on the Major League roster on April 4th’.

    ===============

    Good, hope he doesn’t make the roster.

  468. TD213 February 7th, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    “They are definitely not cutting Garcia either. They arent paying him 5 million to go pitch for the Red Sox.”

    yeah, I agree. Red Sox would kill to get a guy like Garcia to stablize the back end of their rotation.

    I also think that Burnett AND Garcia in the pen is a terrible allocation of resources. 2 roster spot on guys who won’t be pitching in any meaningful innings and are “insurance” policies.

    it will be interesting to see what they do

  469. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    No one is saying he doesn’t deserve a chance yanks27. I just don’t believe there to be that much of a logjam in this situation. Whoever is pitching well makes the rotation. Whoever is not has bullpen/AAA options.

    I don’t think they would outright cut Garcia (assuming he would be horrible for that to be the case anyway), but if someone on the field goes down and they need to make moves, it wouldn’t be completely out of the question. Once opening day hits your payroll is basically a sunk cost, and you have to win the season.

  470. blake February 7th, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    If the Yanks can’t work out a trade for a bat then they really need to make it happen with Damon……get the best player you can and the best fit you can….its a one year deal……Damon and Jones would be a good and fairly versatile DH platoon….and Damon still gives those pesky ABs that the Yanks tend to have been lacking lately.

  471. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    Something unexpected will happen in spring training and the excess pitching will sort itself out.

    ———————–

    By unexpected, do you mean injury?

  472. TD213 February 7th, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    “Once opening day hits your payroll is basically a sunk cost, and you have to win the season.”

    not if your name is AJ Burnett

    They did everything they could not to remove him from the rotation last year.

  473. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    I don’t see much difference between Damon and those other free agent DH types.

  474. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    “By unexpected, do you mean injury?”

    Among other things such as trades or general ineffectiveness.

  475. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 5:15 pm

    TD213 – They did everything they could not to remove him from the rotation last year.

    That’s because AJ was not pitching “that” poorly last season. He really only blew up in August. for 3/4 of the season (and the playoffs) he was pretty much fine. Not $15mil fine, but not remove him from the rotation bad either.

  476. blake February 7th, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    “I don’t see much difference between Damon and those other free agent DH types.”

    He stole 19 bases last year….he can still run…..he can still go 1st to 3rd….he can still battle pitchers ….and he’s been there in NY….I wouldn’t let a couple million dollars decide who they sign….I hope the yanks don’t either

  477. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    Among other things such as trades or general ineffectiveness.

    ——-

    Idk. That’s the old adage that these things usually work themselves out.

    But remember, the Yankees have three legitimate candidates for one spot. That’s a lot to sort out in ST.

  478. blake February 7th, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    If Hughes doesn’t win the rotation spot then he should be at AAA with AJ in the bullpen.

  479. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    LGY – Even the shortness of ST considered, with all 4 players (5 really if you include Pineda) having “a place to go” it should sort itself out without too much fuss. If they are all pitching well, is that a problem?

    I think they need ST to happen to bump up the value of someone like Hughes/Burnett before a trade becomes worth making.

  480. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    “But remember, the Yankees have three legitimate candidates for one spot. That’s a lot to sort out in ST.”

    And he still made the trade and sign Kuroda which tells me Cashman thinks he can work it out in the end.

  481. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:23 pm

    “I wouldn’t let a couple million dollars decide who they sign….I hope the yanks don’t either”

    Unfortunately, you’re not Hal Steinbrenner.

  482. rizzo8118 February 7th, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    does anyone know if the bill hall deal is legit or just rumor?

  483. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    The Hall deal is a MiL deal which doesn’t affect the roster unless he makes the team after spring training.

  484. incident_57 February 7th, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    Who’s the better candidate for the roster?: Chavez or Ibanez.

  485. rizzo8118 February 7th, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    alright, thats a relief. so im assuming he’ll be competing for a backup utility spot with nunez?

  486. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    Done Deal for Hall……………..Go to MLBTR and read it.

  487. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    And he still made the trade and sign Kuroda which tells me Cashman thinks he can work it out in the end.

    ——-

    Of course it’s going to get worked out but that’s different than it sorting itself out.

    I’m just saying it won’t be that easy and a tough decision will have to be made.

  488. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    “I’m just saying it won’t be that easy and a tough decision will have to be made.”

    So? That’s why Cashman gets paid the big bucks to make those type of decisions.

  489. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    “That’s why Cashman gets paid the big bucks to make those type of decisions.”

    “911

    help help help

    she took my $6000″

    yup, he’s a flippin genius.

  490. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Looks like the male version of Cashman’s stalker is back.

  491. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    poor randy can’t even keep his facts straight anymore.

  492. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    So? That’s why Cashman gets paid the big bucks to make those type of decisions.

    ——–

    It’s a discussion on a discussion board??

    Is there a reason you’re getting so defensive?

  493. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    “Is there a reason you’re getting so defensive?”

    You call that being defensive? I call it, it’s not my worry and it’s better than the alternative of not having enough pitching candidates.

  494. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    she took my $6000

    ==============

    You betcha, a pretty expensive piece of tail for the genius.

  495. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    “Looks like the male version of Cashman’s stalker is back.”

    don’t forget to light another candle on your cashman altar

  496. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    Randy David Cashman over here needs to be kept under supervision.

  497. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    At least Kershaw kept the dream alive of fitting him for pinstripes in 2 years.

  498. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    “don’t forget to light another candle on your cashman altar”

    Not me, but I’m not consume with hating someone like you are. Actually, you’re pretty pathetic and I’ve told you beforehand that you need some professional help. Maybe, the crazy chick can hook you up with her future shrink.

  499. 108 stitches February 7th, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Bill Hall works out with hitting coach Kevin Long during the offseason. Knowing this, K-Long might have had some input whether the signing was worth a try.

  500. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    At least Kershaw kept the dream alive of fitting him for pinstripes in 2 years.

    3 years. They only bought out his first 2 arb years

  501. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    108 stitches February 7th, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Pipedream, Hall stinks. Long or not.

  502. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    I was surprise by Kershaw, but I can understand why he didn’t want gamble here. At least, he has a nice nest egg if anything happens to him and he can still cash out with his 3rd arbitration year followed by free agency. IMO, the new Dodger ownership will lock him up before that 3rd arbitration year if he remains healthy.

  503. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    crawdaddy ,

    it is so easy to not read posts if you don’t like what’s in them.

    or do you think everyone have to post things you approve of ?

    personally, i think diversity of thought is what makes a good discussion forum.

  504. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    “Pipedream, Hall stinks. Long or not.”

    I hear ya, brother!.

    Non-guaranteed, near-minimum, minor league, spring training invites just aren’t what they used to be.

  505. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    Randy,

    Actually, I have no interest in what post, but you chose to bring me into your discussion after I told you the other day to ignore me. Your forum behavior tells me you can’t help yourself.

  506. tomingeorgia February 7th, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    stuckey,
    Same comments last year on Garcia and Colon.

  507. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    crawdaddy-

    so you get to tell me what i can post?

    very interesting trial ballon to float.

    how’s that working out for you?

    hate to tell you. this isn’t your blog.

  508. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    Just tired of all these cheap retreads, ml or not. Can we please sign some decent guys (The Cubans) get DePaula’s visa fixed and season these guys in the minors so we have some depth to replace Swisher etc. next year.

    Tired of all the cheap, shetty signings of guys who suck, bench players or not.

  509. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    It isn’t your blog either even though you act like it.

  510. austinmac February 7th, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    In my opinion, Hughes will be on the team if he has his velocity. If he hasn’t shown the development of a second pitch, perhaps the pen is his spot going forward. He will never be a capable starter as long as his secondary pitches don’t get out. Further, it seems to me his velocity decreases inning by inning in his starts. Out of shape or just the way it will always be?

    I think the Yankees are waiting for spring training to see if anyone gets hurt. Of a Yankee pitcher gets hurt he may be needed. If a starter on another team gets hurt, maybe he can be moved.

  511. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    ‘hate to tell you. this isn’t your blog’

    ===========

    Contrary to popular belief, huh ?

  512. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    “Just tired of all these cheap retreads, ml or not. Can we please sign some decent guys (The Cubans)”

    Kuroda doesn’t count?

    Bringing back Garcia after his 2011 isn’t a sound move?

  513. austinmac February 7th, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    I read somewhere today, but I can’t recall where,that Soler may not become eligible to sign until July or later making the new international signing rules apply. That would be too bad, but would affect all teams equally. Did anyone see this and have an explanation?

  514. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    Those guys are fine for a year. $ 15 – 16 million between them, both are old. If both go after this year what do you have ?

    Banuelos, Betances, Campos etc. likely not ready for a full ML season in the rotation in 2013.

  515. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    hughes is an enigma

    to go from phil franchise to where he is at now is about the lowest anyone could have imagined when baseball america said he’d be the yankee’s #1 by 2010.

    “In November 2006, Baseball America rated Hughes the Yankees #1 prospect, and as having the best curveball and best control in the Yankee system, called him “arguably the best pitching prospect in the minors,” and projected him as the Yankees #1 starter in 2010″- wikepedia

  516. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    “Banuelos, Betances, Campos etc. likely not ready for a full ML season in the rotation in 2013.”

    There’s NO reason to think the either or both of the B’s won’t be ready to join the rotation in 2013, assuming they perform in 2012.

    But that said, what the heck does that have to do with Bill Hall, or the “Cuban guys” for that matter?

    What 2013 rotation candidate are you holding out for at the moment that you think Bill Hall is impeding?

  517. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    “to go from phil franchise to where he is at now is about the lowest anyone could have imagined when baseball america said he’d be the yankee’s #1 by 2010.”

    Baseball American’s Top 9 prospects in 2007.

    1. Daisuke Matsuzaka, rhp, Red Sox
    2. Alex Gordon, 3b, Royals
    3. Delmon Young, of, Devil
    4. Philip Hughes, rhp, Yankees
    5. Homer Bailey, rhp, Reds
    6. Cameron Maybin, of, Tigers
    7. Evan Longoria, 3b, Devil Rays
    8. Brandon Wood, ss, Angels

    Phil Hughes has an All-Star game to his credit. What have 7 of those other 9 guys done?

    I don’t have to imagine lower, I just have to look that list.

  518. BD (Boston Dave) February 7th, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    “You never broke up with a lady because she turned out to be crazy? ”

    ———–

    sometimes ya don’t learn that they’re crazy until you break up with them…

  519. BD (Boston Dave) February 7th, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    “Baseball American’s Top 9 prospects in 2007.

    1. Daisuke Matsuzaka, rhp, Red Sox
    2. Alex Gordon, 3b, Royals
    3. Delmon Young, of, Devil
    4. Philip Hughes, rhp, Yankees
    5. Homer Bailey, rhp, Reds
    6. Cameron Maybin, of, Tigers
    7. Evan Longoria, 3b, Devil Rays
    8. Brandon Wood, ss, Angels”

    ———–

    Jerkfaces top prospects of 2012?? ;)

    1. Yu Darvish
    2. Jesus Montero
    3. Matt Moore
    4. Bryce Harper

  520. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    Aren’t crazy and lady kind of mutually exclusive?

  521. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    hughes is not even a lock for #5 in the yankees 2011 rotation.

    that’s pretty bad for someone projected to be a #1 .

    personally,i would pencil him in the rotation and let him pitch unless he proves by his results that he can’t do the job.

    i think 17 victories two years ago says he should be given a chance.

  522. blake February 7th, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    “Unfortunately, you’re not Hal Steinbrenner.”

    That is unfortunate ….at least financially

  523. Crawdaddy February 7th, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    “That is unfortunate ….at least financially”

    I know what you mean.

  524. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    “personally,i would pencil him in the rotation and let him pitch unless he proves by his results that he can’t do the job.”

    More importantly, given the available options, Cashman owes it to himself and the organization to do that.

  525. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    blake-

    if hughes gets hot, he’d have a very high trade value.

    he needs to pitch to see if he can get back to where he was.

  526. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    i mean rich in nj

  527. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    it also shows the young kids down on the farm that the yankees give every opportunity for young players to make it in the organization.

  528. Bronx Jeers February 7th, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    If no deal is made and everybody remains healthy it really looks like someone’s getting shafted come April.

    I’d like to see Hughes get one last shot but I don’t think it should come at Nova’s expense.

  529. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    “I’d like to see Hughes get one last shot but I don’t think it should come at Nova’s expense.”

    nova has to stay in the rotation.

  530. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    Nova is a lock for a rotation spot unless the wheels fall off and then scatter.

    It’s Hughes/AJ/Garcia, which should really offer a window on where the Yankees are in terms of valuing contractual commitment v. potential upside.

  531. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    “it also shows the young kids down on the farm that the yankees give every opportunity for young players to make it in the organization.”

    Yes, because 71 careers starts and effectively starting each of the last 4 seasons in the starting rotation is not convincing enough of an argument.

    Damn those Yankees and their hair-triggers…

  532. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    There’s NO reason to think the either or both of the B’s won’t be ready to join the rotation in 2013, assuming they perform in 2012.

    ==========

    Stuckey:

    Remember I said ‘likely’ not ready….

    Just don’t think so, not enough build up of innings and lack of command for Betances. Plus the track record for NYY developing SP hasn’t been the best. Plan is patience………….

    =============

    Re: Bill Hall, come on now ? Keppinger would have been better than this guy. I think they won’t want to pay Swisher $ 12 to $14 million after this year. Cubans ? This year in the ml and next year ready to go hopefully to the ML.

  533. Jerkface February 7th, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    1. Yu Darvish
    2. Jesus Montero
    3. Matt Moore
    4. Bryce Harper

    My list is like

    1. Yu Montero
    2. Jesus Darvish
    3. Yu Darvish
    4. Jesus Montero
    5. Yusus Dartero
    6. Ju Montish
    7. Bryce Harper
    8. Jesus Montero
    9. Yu Darvish

  534. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    If Hughes somehow wildly exceeds expectations, maybe they can trade Pineda back to the Mariners for Montero.

  535. randy l. February 7th, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    stuckey-

    the sky is blue

  536. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    “the sky is blue”

    First thing you’ve gotten right in some time.

  537. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    “If Hughes somehow wildly exceeds expectations, maybe they can trade Pineda back to the Mariners for Montero.”

    Maybe if they throw in Ackley.

  538. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    I’m determined but not greedy.

  539. Bronx Jeers February 7th, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    Hughes is the exception and definitely not the rule as far as chances to make the big club go. IMO the best thing that could happen to a Yankee prospect is to get traded. Thank heaven Tony Womack sucked.

    As far as the rotation, I think CC, Freddy and Kuroda are the locks. And you know they want AJ to be effective so they don’t have to be embarrassed with 30MM invested in middle relief.

  540. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    “Thank heaven Tony Womack sucked.”

    Not to mention Tony Fernandez getting hurt.

  541. Bronx Jeers February 7th, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    IMO the best thing that could happen to a Yankee prospect is to get traded.

    —————————————————————————————–

    I say this objectively. It’s best for them. Not necessarily for the team although in the case of IPK and AJax it worked out for everybody.

  542. Ys Guy February 7th, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    they dropped the puck in the devils rangers game and two fights broke out immediately. what a joke of a sport.

  543. blake February 7th, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    If nobody is traded….these are the only options they should consider for the rotation:

    1. Hughes wins the spot outright, AJ in the pen, Garcia is the longman
    2. Garcia wins the spot, AJ in the pen, Hughes at AAA

    Basically either Hughes or Garcia should be the the 5th starter….Hughes should be in either the NY or AAA rotation…..and AJ should either be traded or put in the bullpen.

  544. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    The idea that it’s best for a Yankee prospect to be traded (from a selfless perspective) should have been forever put to rest by the success of the Core 5 and then later Cano and Robertson, especially when you consider the likely restraint on spending imposed by the latest CBA.

    Their ability to be consistent winners going forward, given the age and pre-existing contractual commitments on the roster, will be at risk if they don’t make prospect development and retention an integral part of their business model.

  545. Nilsson February 7th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    There was a 60 Minutes piece on Roger Goodell two Sundays ago. Very eye opening to see the way the NFL commissioner and his staff go over games every week with the head of officials. It’s available online by the way. Fascinating stuff.

    More importantly, hope Bud himself gets a chance to see and learn from it. Major league baseball could also be treated like a consumer product. Quality control is not a bad thing.

  546. Bronx Jeers February 7th, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    Their ability to be consistent winners going forward, given the age and pre-existing contractual commitments on the roster, will be at risk if they don’t make prospect development and retention an integral part of their business model.

    ———————————————————————————————————————————–

    And theres definitely a light now at the end of the tunnel after some prolonged darkness.

    Gardner is also a significant member of the new revolution. The Core and Cano are HOF caliber players. Gardner’s not. He’s like living proof that you don’t have to be a superstar to come through the system and score a regular gig on the big team.

  547. austinmac February 7th, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Blake,

    You may be right about Hughes, but I think the Yankees may think otherwise. If he only has one effective pitch at the end of spring at 25 years old, they may see his future value to them in the pen where he has had success.

  548. stanzy February 7th, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    “The strikezone is established on the front edge of the plate, no where else.”

    ID – OK, I wasn’t sure about that. But I think the point is still valid. There are reasons why any computerized system won’t be perfect. There are a lot of moving parts when a pitch is thrown. So I thill think it’s useful to have the ump be the authority.

  549. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    More trouble for the Knicks, no Carmelo for a couple of weeks and Amare for who knows how long. Sinking quickly……………………….

  550. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Who needs Melo when you have Jeremy Lin?

  551. Tar February 7th, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    “If nobody is traded….these are the only options they should consider for the rotation:”

    Blake we are on the same page about most things, but I guess the rotation before ST starts is not one of them.

    Why limit your options before ST even starts? I don’t follow that line of thinking.

    “Basically either Hughes or Garcia should be the the 5th starter”

    What if they both suck? What if they are both great! Maybe they both should be starters.

    As far as I am concerned CC has a spot. The next best 4 should win starting jobs.

    There are so many different scenarios that could take place that it’s mind boggling.

  552. blake February 7th, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    “There are so many different scenarios that could take place that it’s mind boggling.”

    I agree….I just don’t think AJ should factor in to any of them really.

    You ready for tomorrow night?

  553. blake February 7th, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
    by jonmorosi
    Sources tell me and @jonmorosi that #Rangers are in agreement with Andrus on three-year contract, pending physical. #MLB
    3 minutes ago

    which will convieniently end right when Jeter’s contract is up

  554. J. Alfred Prufrock February 7th, 2012 at 9:19 pm

    .No, Prufrock. Trading Montero doesn’t count as a crime.
    ///

    No, just f***ing stupid.

  555. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    “As far as I am concerned CC has a spot. The next best 4 should win starting jobs.”

    Tar

    It’s hard to imagine Kuroda (contract size) or Pineda (crazy cost) or Nova (because of what he did last season) not getting spots in the rotation.

  556. Tar February 7th, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    “I agree….I just don’t think AJ should factor in to any of them really.”

    Ok that I understand, don’t necessarily agree but understand.

    Yeah i’m ready, not sure the bad guys are though. Did you watch the Miami game?

  557. blake February 7th, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    Tar,

    yea I watched some of it….you never know though when those two get together.

    yea I think barring something crazy then Kuroda, Nova, and Pineda will all be in the rotation as Rich said…..

  558. Tar February 7th, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    Rich

    I agree those are the likely candidates. Nova and Pineda both being so young and still very inexperienced are more of wildcards.

    If either struggle greatly and some one else catches fire who knows where they start the year. Again unlikely but….

  559. Tar February 7th, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    “you never know though when those two get together.”

    I know my confidence is a little unsettling. :wink:

  560. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    “Who needs Melo when you have Jeremy Lin?”

    Billups toe his Achilles, Gallinari out a month with a sprained ankle.

  561. LGY February 7th, 2012 at 9:52 pm

    Billups toe his Achilles, Gallinari out a month with a sprained ankle

    ——-

    Mozgov is hurt too. Everyone in the trade is cursed!

  562. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    A new honor for ARod, he must be proud………………

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/to.....-athletes/

  563. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 10:42 pm

    Parking at the Stadium soon more than a game ticket ?

    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/.....J6ePQRvLYF

  564. yankeefeminista February 7th, 2012 at 10:46 pm

    jimcallisBA Jim Callis
    Ravel Santana. @nebkreb: Best #Yankees prospect no one talks about?
    9 hours ago

    _____
    Callis obviously doesn’t read Lohud. ;)

    GB, Donnie Collins is really going out on a limb there, re: that SWB rotation. It must have taken him days to figure out the big five. :roll:

    Worst, parking already is more expensive than both the grandstand and bleacher seats.

    Did we sign/trade for a DH yet?

  565. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 10:50 pm

    “Did we sign/trade for a DH yet?”

    No, but it will probably be Raul Ibanez’s corpse.

  566. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 10:54 pm

    Here’s why I say that:

    Even after signing Hall, the Yankees continue to be focused on Eric Chavez and Raul Ibanez according to Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com. Last night we learned that they were in serious talks with Ibanez, and Heyman says the Yankees are in excellent position because all of their targets have interest in playing for a contender.

    Meanwhile, Joel Sherman of The New York Post reports that the Yankees are not offering more than $2MM for a DH-type and might not even want to spend more than $1MM.

    $1m? Is that a typo?

  567. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 11:00 pm

    Ibanez is dead ? ?……………………………Good, that way he can’t sign in NY.

  568. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:01 pm

    Only his ability to hit.

  569. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 11:07 pm

    Damn. Chavez and Hall, come on now ? Heyman must be still drunk from the parade today.

  570. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:08 pm

    Well, someone may not be thinking straight. We can only hope it’s Heyman.

  571. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 11:16 pm

    This is really getting depressing signing all these ex Red Sox and guys who just aren’t productive anymore and broken down. Yes, they are only bench / role players and some are on ml contracts, but this is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

    Sign some guys that can be productive filling in for the inevitably injured ARod, unproductive Gardner (when slumping) The new LT doesn’t start until 2014 and this is only 2012. Scheeesh……………

  572. Irreverent Discourse February 7th, 2012 at 11:20 pm

    rich… how did you do that?

  573. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 11:22 pm

    I’m with you guys.

    $208 million is just a friggin’ flat out insult.

  574. Your Worst Nightmare February 7th, 2012 at 11:24 pm

    Does it really matter as long as they are under $ 189 by 2014 ? ?

  575. Bronx Jeers February 7th, 2012 at 11:26 pm

    What are we on a 1 thread per day diet in here?

    Funny that Bill Hall’s already talking about a ring. Good for him he sounds happy for the opportunity.

    IIRC he had some big hits for the Sox a couple of seasons back. Doubtful he would even get those ABs here and that’s even if he makes the club. But at least hes not shy in a big spot.

  576. yankeefeminista February 7th, 2012 at 11:27 pm

    Ugh! RE: Our offense: “We’re not getting older; we’re getting better” should be our battle cry for 2012. :roll: Talk about lack of versatility in terms of fielding deficiencies off the bench and the stringent platoon splits. I still say a big deal is coming at some point before the TD. Maybe until then, Sori and AJ can cough up some of that 27.5 mil to help the cause.

    At “Over the Monster,” they tried to determine what is fair compensation for Theo, and ended up using WAR to conclude that Garza is fair compensation. rofl. Nice try.

  577. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:27 pm

    ID

    Less than sign, type blockquote, greater than sign, your text, less than sign, type / then type blockquote, greater than sign

    The insult is how the $200+ is apportioned.

  578. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:29 pm

    “I still say a big deal is coming at some point before the TD.”

    At the TD is when the prices in terms of assets to be surrendered are often the highest.

  579. Pat M. February 7th, 2012 at 11:30 pm

    The quiet whisper of concern in the Yanks front office is about Ivan Nova’s forearm……..

  580. Cashmoney February 7th, 2012 at 11:31 pm

    I am available for under a mil.

  581. stuckey February 7th, 2012 at 11:32 pm

    “The insult is how the $200+ is apportioned.”

    Which is the insulting apportion?

  582. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:33 pm

    “The quiet whisper of concern in the Yanks front office is about Ivan Nova’s forearm……..”

    Understandable, but why trade Noesi, IF according to Francesa*, the Mariners wanted Nova?

    *with the caveats noted above

  583. Pat M. February 7th, 2012 at 11:35 pm

    Rich in NJ….Maybe they knew he wouldn’t pass the physical ????

  584. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:35 pm

    “Which is the insulting apportion?”

    AJ’s $16.5m
    Soriano’s $11m

  585. Rich in NJ February 7th, 2012 at 11:36 pm

    Pat

    What did they have to lose by letting the Mariners’ doctors make the call?

  586. jacksquat February 7th, 2012 at 11:45 pm

    I thought Nova’s forearm strain wasn’t that serious?

  587. Nick in SF February 7th, 2012 at 11:52 pm

    Nova + forearm strain > Noesi?

  588. Nilsson February 7th, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    Forearm strains could be a red flag or it could be nothing serious. No one knows for certain. Only time and more innings pitched will tell.

  589. GreenBeret7 February 7th, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    Pat M. February 7th, 2012 at 11:30 pm
    The quiet whisper of concern in the Yanks front office is about Ivan Nova’s forearm……..

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Pat,

    how’s things going out on the wrong coast? Did you win enough on the games to fund an east coast trip?

    I knew they would have concerns about that injury, but, wasn’t the injury on the top of the forearm and not the elbow?

  590. Yogi Mantle February 8th, 2012 at 12:05 am

    From that article about the parking costs, it seems they have morons running things for the parking association.

    They aren’t getting enough customers to park as it is now, so instead of lowering their price and getting a lot more of their spaces used, thereby increasing their take, they are going with raising prices and probably lowering the number of customers even more.

    People aren’t going to pay $55 to park when they weren’t paying $35 before. If they dropped the price to $20, I think they would sell out, or come a lot closer to it than they are now. Now they are getting about 1/3 capacity.

    Increasing their use by dropping the price would get themselves more income per game by a significant margin. Going with $20 per car and selling out they would increase their one game take by roughly $60K.

    How do they not see this?

  591. GreenBeret7 February 8th, 2012 at 12:23 am

    Hackers crack Symantec’s PC Anywhere Security Codes to extort $50,000

    http://www.reuters.com/article.....TN20120207

  592. kd February 8th, 2012 at 1:22 am

    pat m,

    tommy john on the horizon?

  593. jacksquat February 8th, 2012 at 1:39 am

    kd February 8th, 2012 at 1:22 am
    pat m,

    tommy john on the horizon?

    Well, that would explain why they have 7 starting pitchers, maybe they think it’s really 6.

  594. Jerkface February 8th, 2012 at 2:07 am

    Well, that would explain why they have 7 starting pitchers, maybe they think it’s really 6.

    A forearm strain is a precursor to TJS, so its not out of the question. I said that back when he got hurt, but then I recall the Yankees saying he was fine a month later. Maybe they are just worried, or its worse and they didnt want to mess up any trades. Imagine if the M’s knew Nova was out. Jesus++++

  595. UnKnown February 8th, 2012 at 2:46 am

    Never fails. You can never have to many starting pitchers. Something always happens and it works itself out.

  596. ron February 8th, 2012 at 5:12 am

    It would really suck if nova wen’t down with tjs.

    Imo the problem the yankees are having,is trying to develope pitchers,while they are in the majors,on the biggest stage in the world,where there is no time to work on a changeup,curve,etc…

    Also,like nova,yankee pitchers should be left in AA orAAA,til their innings are built up.

    This is why pineda should be put in AAA,til he developes a changeup,at the very minimum.

  597. Crawdaddy February 8th, 2012 at 5:39 am

    Let me get this straight. Pat M is on the west coast, posts about some Yankee whispers regarding Nova’s forearm and now everybody is assuming Nova needs TJS.

    Can Nova get to spring training first before we make such assumptions.

  598. Crawdaddy February 8th, 2012 at 5:44 am

    “Also,like nova,yankee pitchers should be left in AA orAAA,til their innings are built up.

    This is why pineda should be put in AAA,til he developes a changeup,at the very minimum.”

    First off, Nova has thrown almost 600 innings in the minors including 3 seasons when he three about 140 innings or more not couting playoff innings. How many more innings you him to pitch in the minors.

    Secondly, the way Pineda dominated MLB batters last year and you need to dig a little deeper into his numbers besides ERA to see that, there is no way you send him back down to the minors unless he really struggles this year.

  599. MTU February 8th, 2012 at 6:08 am

    Let’s not jump to conclusions about Nova’s arm.

    If you recall, a while back, D-Rob had a problem with his forearm.

    There was enough concern to send him to Dr. A.

    At least in that case it proved to be nothing.

    So not every forearm strain results in a TJS.

    Perhaps Nova is still adjusting to that new slider of his ?

    It’s a pitch which can be particularly tough on the arm.

    Guess we’ll see.

  600. jacksquat February 8th, 2012 at 6:18 am

    I didn’t see anyone “assuming” or “jumping to conclusions”. I did see people jumping to conclusions that people were doing the aforementioned.

    We’ll find out soon enough.

  601. Villa Nova-Ya February 8th, 2012 at 6:24 am

    I would be surprised if the Yankees were not thinking about Nova’s forearm, since he ended his season with a forearm problem. Instead of jumping to the conclusion that it is worse than they have let on, perhaps it’s more of a “we’re going to have to pay close attention” situation.

    At least they seem pretty well set-up to weather that particular storm, what with 7 guys coming in to ST for 5 spots (well, 6 coming in for 5, since I think CC is a lock). ;)

  602. Villa Nova-Ya February 8th, 2012 at 6:31 am

    OOps! 6 coming in for 4!

  603. Tom in N.J. February 8th, 2012 at 7:38 am

    Where’s this idea that every spot in the rotation after CC is open coming from?

  604. Bronx Jeers February 8th, 2012 at 7:40 am

    Nova had a grade 1 flexor strain. I get that pulling my pud. :wink:

    I mean what else is there to say about Nova. Last time we saw him he was leaving a game because of his forearm so we say “… hope that forearms okay.. ”

    And the most likely scenario is that it is okay after 4 months of rest.

  605. PacoDooley February 8th, 2012 at 7:44 am

    Nice to see the Yankees offseason moves appreciated by the good folks at Fangraphs – Pineda and Kiroda listed as two of the 10 best moves this offseason:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....he-winter/

  606. Villa Nova-Ya February 8th, 2012 at 7:49 am

    Tom in NJ -

    Well, speaking for myself, it’s more of matter of who slots in where behind CC, and in what order. I guess if you want strict accuracy, you’d say that Kuroda and Pineda probably have spots for sure, and Nova. That leaves AJ, Hughes and Garcia for the 5th spot. But, if they’re not trading AJ, I seriously doubt they’d take him out of the rotation (not after all the statements about supporting AJ). So, that means CC, Pineda, Kuroda, AJ and Nova with Hughes and Garcia the odd men out. And I don’t buy that rotation.

  607. 108 stitches February 8th, 2012 at 7:50 am

    12 more days until pitchers and catchers report to Tampa for the 1st formal workouts. Cashman has very little tinkering to do with the roster. As MLB team rosters shake out in late March, Cashman may look over who might be helpful.

  608. Ys Guy February 8th, 2012 at 7:50 am

    this blog is the only place i see this intense negativity towards the pineda trade. everywhere else i keep hearing what a great move it was for the yankees and how he might be the missing piece on this team.

  609. MTU February 8th, 2012 at 8:12 am

    Is this the 2012 25 man ?

    CC
    Kuroda
    Nova
    Pineda
    Hughes/Garcia/Burnett (winner of ST competition)

    Jeter
    Grandy
    A-Rod
    Tex
    Cano
    Swish
    Martin
    GGBG
    Nunez
    Hall
    Ibanez
    Cervelli/Romine (winner of ST competition)

    Mo
    Soriano
    D-Rob
    Logan
    Wade
    Garcia/Burnett/Hughes (the remaining 2)
    Joba (after DL stint)
    Oki/Cabral (winner of ST competition)

  610. blake February 8th, 2012 at 8:12 am

    Im sure there is some level of concern over Nova’s health just because its been the offseason and he hasn’t been pitching……so they dont know for sure he’s ok…..probably wont know til he gets to Tampa and cracks it up.

  611. blake February 8th, 2012 at 8:14 am

    MTU,

    I think it’ll be Damon in the end…..makes too much sense for both parties.

  612. Ys Guy February 8th, 2012 at 8:16 am

    damon’s toast. love the guy but he had 2 months of sub .300 obp last season.

  613. MTU February 8th, 2012 at 8:17 am

    Blake-

    I prefer Damon to Ibanez but I think Ibanez is more likely.

  614. Ys Guy February 8th, 2012 at 8:20 am

    i also don’t want to see a fading damon in pinstripes as it becomes apparent that he doesn’t have anything left.

    one last thing about damon, its not in his interest to come to the yankees assuming 3000 hits is in his sights, he needs more ab’s than he’s likely to get on the yankees. he needs to go somewhere where he will dh 5-6x/ week. he’s likely to lose alot of ab’s to jeter, arod and jones here and jeopardize his shot at 3k

  615. blake February 8th, 2012 at 8:24 am

    “damon’s toast. love the guy but he had 2 months of sub .300 obp last season.”

    I don’t think that necessarily means he’s toast…..Ibanez is two gears older and had a OBP under.300 last year

  616. blake February 8th, 2012 at 8:26 am

    Damon may have to decide between 300-400 ABs with the Yankees and another shot at a ring…..and 500+ AB with the As or Orioles or some non contender…….

  617. MTU February 8th, 2012 at 8:28 am

    The last year Ibanez was with the Phillies he looked really good for 1/2 the season.

    He may have been injured for the other half. I do not recall.

    In any case, the other portion of the season he looked like crap.

    He also looked kinda shaky in LF to me from the few times I saw him out there.

    Of course, when it comes to playing the OF, Johnny D ain’t exactly any great shakes either.

    ;)

  618. MTU February 8th, 2012 at 8:29 am

    blake-

    Too bad Damon got the shaft from TB.

    It was near his home and I bet he loved playing there at this stage of his career.

  619. Ys Guy February 8th, 2012 at 8:33 am

    how is declining to resign an f/a ‘getting the shaft?’ they certainly don’t owe damon anything. they are after a WS title, not employing local ‘nice guys’ so they can have a soft place to hang around while chasing 3000 hits.

    damon has no complaint against tb.

  620. blake February 8th, 2012 at 8:33 am

    I just don’t think there is 5 million out there for Johnny….

  621. dogface February 8th, 2012 at 8:35 am

    Damon may have to decide between 300-400 ABs with the Yankees and another shot at a ring…..and 500+ AB with the As or Orioles or some non contender…

    =================================

    3,000 or not, he’s not a Hall of Famer. If winning is more important to him than milestones and the money is close to the same, he’ll pick the Yankees over other teams.

  622. Villa Nova-Ya February 8th, 2012 at 8:35 am

    Damon’s got rings. He wants 3,000 hits. So I think the Yankees are at the bottom of his list as preferred landing spots.

  623. Villa Nova-Ya February 8th, 2012 at 8:37 am

    Damon may or may not be a HOFer, but 3,000 hits at least puts him in the conversation.

  624. dogface February 8th, 2012 at 8:39 am

    Damon may or may not be a HOFer, but 3,000 hits at least puts him in the conversation

    ==============================

    Maybe, but it shouldn’t be close. Simply not that level of player. Paul O’Neill was better, and he’s nowhere near an HOF’er.

  625. MTU February 8th, 2012 at 8:41 am

    Y’s-

    Poor choice of words on my part.

    What I meant to say is that it was a shame for Johnny that the Rays chose not to resign him.

    I happen to like Johnny and dislike the Rays so that factors into my thinking.

    I understand the Rays POV.

    Luke Scott is no great shakes either but I guess they thought he was a better value than Damon.

    Me. I am not so sure about that.

    ;)

  626. Mike Ri February 8th, 2012 at 8:46 am

    Not sure if this has been posted ….. some AJ news

    Joel Sherman of the New York Post reports that the Yankees are still quietly shopping A.J. Burnett.
    The Yankees would prefer to sign Eric Chavez and one left-handed DH-type (Raul Ibanez, Johnny Damon or Hideki Matsui), but Sherman reports that they would likely need to expand their budget in order to do. We’ve previously heard that the Yanks are only willing to eat $8 million of the $33 million left on Burnett’s contract as part of a trade, but they’d obviously need to do better than that in order to get somebody to bite.

  627. MTU February 8th, 2012 at 8:50 am

    Mike-

    Thanks. Does not seem likely that the Yankees would eat the required amount to move Burnett.

    Have to think he’s staying.

    Maybe some team will have a starter go down during ST ?

    That might advance the ball.

  628. Ys Guy February 8th, 2012 at 8:53 am

    damon isn’t a hof’er. dh’s are suspicious as far as hof voting goes and when you have a guy who had a good solid non hof career and he’s able to hang around an extra 5 or 6 years after he can’t play the field anymore as a dh, then the 3000 hits that result aren’t enough to get him into the hof, imo.

    but you also have to say that 3000 is no slam dunk for damon either. he needs one more year of full time dh’ing and then maybe a year as a p/t player to make it. but his #’s which were pretty weak for a dh have continued to slip, making it less and less likely that any team is going to give him 500 ab’s. and with the expansion of the # of pitchers on most rosters, it is imperative that the bench players be able to play the field, which hurts damon more. this year is the year that will likely determine if johnny can make it, he has to hit well enough to keep his lineup spot and put up 130 hits or so, or he may not make it.

    i’m rooting for him and especially hoping he gets 20 or so hits vs. the red socks (and another 20 vs. tampa bay…)

  629. Mike Ri February 8th, 2012 at 8:55 am

    I agree MTU !.. its going to be very difficult to move AJ…….

  630. Ys Guy February 8th, 2012 at 8:57 am

    i can’t see anyone taking burnett off our hands for anything less than half his remaining money being paid for by the yankees. it seems that isnt’ going to happen. i said last year and i still believe that he will be moved when he clears waivers after the trade deadline. at that point it will cost the yankees less than $10M to move him and they will do so.

  631. blake February 8th, 2012 at 9:01 am

    DF,

    Agree regarding Damon….not a HOFer either way so he might as well try for another championship and give himself a team to call “home”

    If the Yanks ever thought they we’re going to move AJ without eating half his contract…..then they just aren’t serious about moving him.

  632. PacoDooley February 8th, 2012 at 9:01 am

    Damon is not a HoFer and he should not even be in the conversation. He has had 3 seasons with a WAR over 4. He has averaged about 2.8 WAR since his first full season. His major achievement is that he has had sustained production – a bit above sustained mediocrity. His lifetime WAR of 46. There are nearly 266 players with a higher WAR than Damon.

    You want proof that his career has been all about longevity and not excellence? He ranks 886th in WAR per game. That puts him in the company of a heap of players we have never heard of. While his career WAR is similar to Mattingly’s, he has played nearly 40% more games.

    No way he makes it to the Hall, or at least there is no way he deserves to. 3000 hits is not an automatic pass (or at least it should not be).

  633. MTU February 8th, 2012 at 9:03 am

    The nice thing for the Yankees is that they are not forced to do anything.

    They can simply take their time and make moves when the right opportunities present themselves.

    ST might sort out a lot of issues.

    If it doesn’t then the TD might.

    I like the position we are in. One of strength rather than weakness.

  634. MTU February 8th, 2012 at 9:04 am

    There’s a new thread —->

  635. Gary February 8th, 2012 at 9:06 am

    Morning, returning from the world of Giants Football :-)

    I think that regards with the reversing calls first and foremost is the aspect of getting the call right. Whatever happens after that has to be handled just like the judgement situations that are today. I’ve seen many instances where with fan interference or a ground rule double that a runner could easily have scored with or without the incident that happens. But they also rule to return the runner. Too many botched calls and they almost always hurt the offensive team, the team in the field almost always gets the benefit of the call.

    At the speed that sports are occuring today, it’s gone beyond the speed than most officials can register the proper call with a high degree of confidence. Technology now needs to assume a greater and greater role.

    Take for example the Manningham catch on the sideline. Did the ref get the calkl right yes, but do I really think he saw all the elements of the play, feet positon/possession ect no. I’m glad as a Giant fan that they did the review, but it did take multiple angles and super slow mo to make sure that it was the right call. Bang Bang plays like at first and second base give the umps alot of trouble, thyey are right alot, but they sure are wrong alot to.

  636. 86w183 February 8th, 2012 at 9:09 am

    I’ve said all along the only way AJ gets moved is in a bad contract for bad contract deal.

    If the Yanks add some arms in the Warren/Phelps category perhaps they could do a deal for Nick Markakis. The guy is heading in the wrong direction, but a change of scenery could help both players.

    Problem is Markakis has guaranteed 2014 $$$.

  637. Gary February 8th, 2012 at 9:13 am

    •Meanwhile, Joel Sherman of The New York Post reports that the Yankees are not offering more than $2MM for a DH-type and might not even want to spend more than $1MM.

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    Offer cheap get cheap, with a payroll of $200M+ your only pay 1% of that for a guy that bats 4 times a game for you. Successful DH’s are getting the big bucks, cheap DH’s don’t contribute. Be prepared for another miserable year at DH.

  638. 108 stitches February 8th, 2012 at 9:14 am

    Whatever team Damon signs with, he has to convince Scott Boras that he’s willing to work for a $2MM deal. He’s gone through free agency twice plus other lesser deals. He has no financial worries.

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