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LoHud Yankees chat begins at noon

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 16, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

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218 Responses to “LoHud Yankees chat begins at noon”

  1. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    blake February 16th, 2012 at 11:53 am

    “Stop listening to their story, you’ll be happier in the long term. They aren’t trading AJ to sign a DH. They’re trading AJ because they have 6 starting pitchers on the roster who are better than him.”

    They could put him in the pen and have the same effect…..I think they should trade him for the salary relief and have been saying that for like a year now…..however if they don’t use the money for anything worthwhile then its much less exciting.
    ————————–

    Right but you’re just factoring the ability to start into who wins the 5th starter’s spot. We’re all smart enough to know that it’s not that black and white.

    Girardi will look at not only who he thinks is the better starter, but who he thinks are the better relievers. Garcia and Hughes both have experience in that role, AJ doesn’t. And then there’s the cost – do you bury $33 mil in the pen?

    As I said, I can almost assure it that if AJ’s on this team he will be the fifth starter, even if he stinks in spring training. I can pretty well give you what Girardi’s going to say:

    We really like the way AJ came to spring training, but aside the distractions and competed. He and Larry worked on some things and we liked what we saw out of his bullpens and side work, the way the ball was coming out of his hand. Plus we’ve had Freddy and Hughesey in the pen and know that they can be big contributors out there, AJ’s never done it before and we didn’t want to put him in a situation like that where he has to learn how to pitch relief at this stage. All three of these guys will be huge for us through out the year.”

    Sound about right?

  2. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    Girardi shouldn’t be empowered to make the decision on the 5th starter. They have to make an organizational decision on their once prized prospect/symbol of the rebirth of the farm system.

  3. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    As per McCarron, is Charlie Hayes’ son a viable prospect?

    Just found this:

    “Fishkill — He was only 7 at the time, but Tyree Hayes remembers the moment vividly.

    Just like most Yankees fans.

    Flash back to Game 6 of the 1996 World Series between the Yankees and the Atlanta Braves at chilly Yankee Stadium.

    Hayes’ father, Yankees third baseman Charlie Hayes, circles under a pop fly by Atlanta’s Mark Lemke in foul territory and squeezes the ball into his glove, clinching the World Series for the Bombers.

    Hayes, who played for seven teams during his 13-year career, instantly became part of pinstriped lore.

    “I was actually sitting in the stands for that game,” said Tyree Hayes, a pitcher for the Hudson Valley Renegades. “I just can remember thinking ‘Catch it, dad. Catch it.’ At the time, I didn’t really understand what it meant, but I got an understanding of what it means to win a World Series. It’s amazing.” ” :)

  4. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    How often do you read the words “Tyree” and “catch” in a post and it isn’t about the NYG?

  5. stuckey February 16th, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    Sorry, I know this is just me being me, but trying to rationalize something that actually hasn’t happened yet, much less trying to rationalize how two different things are related, neither of which actually hasn’t happened yet seems…

    I don’t know…

    Think I’ll just let that stand on its own.

  6. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    OT -

    I just read that Florida executed a man who had raped and murdered a then-29-year-old woman he met in a bar, while he was out on parole for raping and murdering a 77-year-old woman in NY. He served 8 years in prison before he was paroled. Raping and murdering a 77-year-old, and the sentence was 8 years? Unbelievable.

  7. stuckey February 16th, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    “How often do you read the words “Tyree” and “catch” in a post and it isn’t about the NYG?”

    Not going to see it much anymore. He’s been Manninghamed…

    On that note, Giants had Cruz. Knicks have Lin.

    Yankees will have…?

    Anyone?

  8. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    Rich, hearing Girardi and the (NY) Rangers is also pretty weird.

  9. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    Ibanez? :(

  10. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    yf

    Do you have (bad) news?

  11. blake February 16th, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    Chip,

    I don’t think AJ would be in the rotation…..which is why they are trading him…..

  12. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    Rich, thankfully, not yet…

  13. Wave Your Hat February 16th, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    “I don’t think AJ would be in the rotation…..which is why they are trading him…..”

    You might have reversed cause and effect.

  14. blake February 16th, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    You might have reversed cause and effect.”

    You think they’d trade him if they thought he were the best option for the 5th starter?

  15. Wave Your Hat February 16th, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    “You think they’d trade him if they thought he were the best option for the 5th starter?”

    No, but you can’t completely dismiss the possibility that they are trading him so he won’t be the 5th starter.

  16. Nick in SF February 16th, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    They brought back Freddy Garcia, signed Kuroda, and traded for Pineda all while knowing that AJ was still on the team.

    The point of trading AJ is to make him go away.

  17. blake February 16th, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    “No, but you can’t completely dismiss the possibility that they are trading him so he won’t be the 5th starter.”

    They aren’t contractually obligated to put him in the rotation…..it makes more sense that they internally decided he was their 7th best starter…..therefore expendable.

  18. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    The point of trading AJ is to free up some cash.

  19. randy l. February 16th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    yankeefeminista-

    you watch a huge number of minor league games. what’s your take on how long it takes for young pitchers to learn new pitches?

    i believe it takes months and its going to be tough for pineda to commit to learning the change up when a yankee mlb game is at stake.

    i think he’d learn it much quicker in scranton, and he’d be in a much better position to help the yankees long term with a well developed change.

  20. blake February 16th, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    “The point of trading AJ is to free up some cash.”

    For what though is the question

  21. Wave Your Hat February 16th, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    ah blake, you are too much the straight shooter and not devious enough…

  22. Mike Ri February 16th, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    Per MlBTR

    The Yankees and Pirates should complete a deal within 24 hours, according to Jim Bowden of MLB Network Radio and ESPN.com (on Twitter).

  23. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    “They brought back Freddy Garcia, signed Kuroda, and traded for Pineda all while knowing that AJ was still on the team.

    The point of trading AJ is to make him go away.”

    Hard to argue against that logic.

  24. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    And they must feel pretty convinced that whatever they get out of either Hughes or Garcia is going to be better than what they believe they will get out of AJ.

  25. blake February 16th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    Wave,

    I think we are saying the same thing essentially …..Chip thinks that if AJ isn’t traded that he’d be in the rotation and I don’t believe that.

  26. jacksquat February 16th, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    randy l. February 16th, 2012 at 10:21 am
    “He should try it if he can’t ever get comfortable with a CU…..fly Clemens in to work with him….they have sorta similar arm actions.”

    blake-

    i’m not sure that the split finger fastball is a good pitch for a young pitcher health-wise.

    i’m not sure it isn’t a healthy pitch to throw either.

    if it is a tough pitch on the body to throw, clemens may have lasted with it because he had some help in his body recovering .

    i really don’t don’t know, but what other young pitchers throw the split finger fastball as a third pitch?

    I used to throw a split (called it forkball back then). I had elbow problems, throwing a curve or slider caused big time pain, but I threw the split no problem, just like a fastball. So I don’t get that NYT article that was posted. I think sometimes people try to look for explanations, but correlation does not imply causation.

  27. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    If AJ weren’t traded, and Hughes and Garcia had absolutely horrendous ST and for some reason AJ’s was magnificent, do you really think the Yankees would bury their contract in the bullpen?

    Just sayin’ and not that it’s even going to get the chance to play out. I’m pretty much convinced (probably by reading so many of these “it should be 24 hours, according to people in the know” posts) that his days in pinstripes are over.

    If so, I am wishing him great success and thanking him for some really great postseason pitching. At least he leaves with a ring.

  28. randy l. February 16th, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    “I did search the 146 year history of MLB and determined a pitcher has developed a change up after age 22. Whew, I thought I read here it can’t be done.”

    austinmac-

    how’s hughes and joba’s coming?

    any young yankee pitchers have one?

    montero would have been hitting rockets from day one.

    he didn’t need to learn anything to be a top yankee hitter.

    cashman himself said pineda needs to learn the change up.

    people are treating a pitcher the same before he develops a pitch as they do after he develops a pitch.

    pineda will be a different pitcher if he gets a plus change up.

    no one knows if he will do it. i’d say he has about a 25% chance of developing a plus change up.
    maybe 50/50 of one that will be good enough to play off his other two plus pitches.

  29. jacksquat February 16th, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    I think they are trading AJ primarily because they have 7 starting pitchers, and of the 3 that would likely be fighting for the 5th spot, two have never been relievers. And AJ has had 5+ ERA’s the past 2 years. It also frees up some cash.

  30. jacksquat February 16th, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 12:39 pm
    If AJ weren’t traded, and Hughes and Garcia had absolutely horrendous ST and for some reason AJ’s was magnificent, do you really think the Yankees would bury their contract in the bullpen?

    Just sayin’ and not that it’s even going to get the chance to play out. I’m pretty much convinced (probably by reading so many of these “it should be 24 hours, according to people in the know” posts) that his days in pinstripes are over.

    If so, I am wishing him great success and thanking him for some really great postseason pitching. At least he leaves with a ring

    AJ had a good spring last year, iirc his ERA was better than CC’s, while Garcia’s ERA in spring training was around 6. And you know what kind of regular seasons they had after that.

  31. Nick in SF February 16th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    If all the trades somehow fell through, I would bet on AJ to be in the rotation.

  32. MaineYankee February 16th, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    randy

    I guess Pineda has improved his CU since the trade.

    At one time I believe you put it at 10% so you see he’s already improved 15%.

  33. blake February 16th, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    “If all the trades somehow fell through, I would bet on AJ to be in the rotation.”

    I wouldn’t…..hopefully we wont have a chance ti find out who is right.

  34. randy l. February 16th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    “I guess Pineda has improved his CU since the trade.

    At one time I believe you put it at 10% so you see he’s already improved 15%.”

    maine yankee-

    all this time i’m spending in maine is making me try to be nicer :)

  35. stuckey February 16th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    As someone who believes in chemistry in baseball (and not just statistical addition) and who believes in the value of lessening distractions over the long war of attrition a MLB regular season is, I’m on board with the no-Burnett for no-Burnett sakes.

  36. MaineYankee February 16th, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    randy

    all this time i’m spending in maine is making me try to be nicer

    ————————————————————————

    I wondered where that ill wind I was getting here came from.

  37. stuckey February 16th, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    “i’d say he has about a 25% chance of developing a plus change up.”

    I’d say “25%” is a “figure” you came up with wholly arbitrarily and not in any way based on either data or observation.

    Right?

  38. blake February 16th, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    “I’m on board with the no-Burnett for no-Burnett sakes.”

    I agree with that as well….but I also think they are trading him because he’s not one of their 5 best starters.

  39. randy l. February 16th, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    “Right?”

    that’s about 25% right.

  40. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    I thought the players like AJ. Just this morning, CC said they were close.

  41. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    But if chemistry is important, the case for Damon is strengthened.

  42. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    “If all the trades somehow fell through, I would bet on AJ to be in the rotation.”

    And why’s that Nick?

    *********************

    jacksquat, I hear what you’re saying. But we also know that Hughes had an incredibly bumpy season and it wasn’t his first. So you don’t know what you’re going to get with him either. I think the price of the contract would have something to do with it unless the Yanks are now a completely different org – which they might be.

    That of course is all premised on AJ trying out for the 5th spot and having a stupendous spring.

    That’s why I believe the Yankees will do everything they can, including giving up more than they want, to make a trade go through. If almost hurts the head too much to try to figure out where he would end up if they didn’t trade him. It would be terrrible to decide from jump street that he had no place in the rotation if he did have a brilliant spring.

  43. dogface February 16th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    I agree with that as well….but I also think they are trading him because he’s not one of their 5 best starters.

    ===============================

    I think Hughes would be in play if they thought they could get a really solid bat for him (i.e. Butler, Gordon type). I think they know they can’t, so this is the route they’re taking. Definitely helps that Burnett’s the most expendable, but he also brings you the least. If they could get bigger and better, they’d have considered moving Hughes, IMO.

  44. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    Nick, never mind. I thought you meant if all of the trades (Kuroda, Pineda) fell through, rather than the current possibilities.

  45. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    1. I believe the players do like AJ

    2. I would love to have Damon back.

  46. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    Wave Your Hat February 16th, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    “You think they’d trade him if they thought he were the best option for the 5th starter?”

    No, but you can’t completely dismiss the possibility that they are trading him so he won’t be the 5th starter.
    ——————

    This is exactly my point – you trade Burnett and then you make it an even competition between Hughes and Garcia – both make the same money, both have experience pitching in relief so it comes down to the best pitcher, nothing else factors in.

  47. stuckey February 16th, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    Not suggesting AJ was anything less than a liked, popular member of the clubhouse.

    I just think the take-a-deep-breath-and-hold nature of his starts and the team constantly having to defend him could potentially be wearing to a team.

  48. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    blake February 16th, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    “I’m on board with the no-Burnett for no-Burnett sakes.”

    I agree with that as well….but I also think they are trading him because he’s not one of their 5 best starters.
    —————-

    Frankly I wonder if AJ would be one of their best 8 starters – I wouldn’t totally discount Warren or Phelps as being better options for a spot start than AJ.

  49. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    “I think Hughes would be in play if they thought they could get a really solid bat for him (i.e. Butler, Gordon type)”

    Yes, but if Hughes had that kind of value/worth, they may have not have felt the need to trade for Pineda.

  50. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    Randy, as you know, it is so individualistic, and depends on which pitch we’re talking about and where it is at initially/feel, etc. So, it’s variable–who’s to say or predict?

    Betances developed his change while he was rehabbing, but had a natural feel for it, so it came pretty quickly. It was plus in 2010, but he didn’t use it as much in 2011, so interesting to see how it will look in 2012. Manny ditto in terms of time he needed to improve his curve. Someone like Jose Ramirez worked on his curveball for two years but still couldn’t spin the thing, so they gave up on that pitch. But he could always throw a killer plus changeup. So, hard to say, but of course, it is easier to work on pitches in minors. Look at Nova with the slider. That came pretty quickly, but the slider wasn’t a new pitch for him. He just wasn’t throwing it in the majors. On the other hand, Hughes should have thrown his change more in the minors, but for some reason he kept getting away from throwing it there and obviously in the majors out of the pen, he really got away from using it.

    I doubt we send Pineda down, but agree his change would likely come faster if he were in the minors. But not sure what it looks like now, in spite of the discussion about it. Did you watch that game from Sept. 3rd when Pineda threw the 9 changeups? And if so, how did you think they looked? I still haven’t sprung for the preseason mlb-tv package, but once I do, I plan to watch that game.

  51. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    “I just think the take-a-deep-breath-and-hold nature of his starts and the team constantly having to defend him could potentially be wearing to a team.”

    Not unreasonable to think that. I remember hearing a conversation on EEI and I think I mentioned it here, where a former pitcher was being interviewed and was asked if it started to create friction in the clubhouse when the offense constantly let the pitching down, and vice versa, and he said it definitely did.

  52. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:09 pm

    Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    “I think Hughes would be in play if they thought they could get a really solid bat for him (i.e. Butler, Gordon type)”

    Yes, but if Hughes had that kind of value/worth, they may have not have felt the need to trade for Pineda.
    —————–

    Don’t necessarily agree with that – Pineda is where Hughes was before the 2008 season. I don’t think you’re giving up Pineda for Alex Gordon. Gordon (who I like) is a guy you get for a solid mid to back of the rotation starter – essentially a guy akin to what Hughes was coming into last year.

  53. BD (Boston Dave) February 16th, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    Rather than “waste” Hughes and Garcia as a long man to start the season, who votes for putting Pineda in AAA for a few months to work on the change and two-seamer with little to no pressure to win games while he does it?

  54. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    Obviously we want to give Hughes every chance to succeed, but AJ has more trade value than Hughes and is a salary dump to boot. They don’t want to pay AJ the kind of coin he is getting to be a fifth or even fourth starter. And yeah, if we are freeing up cash for one of the current FA DH’s, pretty depressing.

  55. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    Trade Burnett and then do Betances for Billy Butler?

  56. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    BD (Boston Dave) February 16th, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    Rather than “waste” Hughes and Garcia as a long man to start the season, who votes for putting Pineda in AAA for a few months to work on the change and two-seamer with little to no pressure to win games while he does it?
    —————–

    Absolutely not.

    He can work on pitches in spring training with no pressure to win games.

  57. dogface February 16th, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    I just think the take-a-deep-breath-and-hold nature of his starts and the team constantly having to defend him could potentially be wearing to a team.

    =========================================

    Don’t even think it’s that. Issue really is that it’s a numbers game and somebody (or more than one somebody) is going to come out a loser in said game and probably not be especially happy about it. Doesn’t make those unhappy players good, bad, or ugly, but it can cause tension in a clubhouse.

  58. LGY February 16th, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    This is exactly my point – you trade Burnett and then you make it an even competition between Hughes and Garcia – both make the same money, both have experience pitching in relief so it comes down to the best pitcher, nothing else factors in.

    ————

    Garcia has pitcher 4 innings in his entire career out of the bullpen.

  59. dogface February 16th, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    Trade Burnett and then do Betances for Billy Butler?

    ==============================

    If I’m the Royals, I don’t do that………but I’m not the Royals.

  60. blake February 16th, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    I think if they traded Hughes then Garcia would be the 5th starter

  61. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 12:57 pm
    But if chemistry is important, the case for Damon is strengthened.
    _______
    Are you being facetious?

  62. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    “Rather than “waste” Hughes and Garcia as a long man to start the season, who votes for putting Pineda in AAA for a few months to work on the change and two-seamer with little to no pressure to win games while he does it?”

    I would definitely do it but for some reason (even political reasons) I don’t think the Yanks are going to do it. I think it would be great for Pineda, not just to work on his pitches but also to give his arm a rest for all of the wear tthe Mariners put on it by rushing him up – something not unknown to the Yankee org!

  63. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    YF – I think Damon is a beloved clubhouse guy wherever he goes.

  64. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    Garcia is not sticking around to pitch in relief.

  65. dogface February 16th, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    but AJ has more trade value than Hughes and is a salary dump to boot

    ========================================

    No, Hughes has more value by a mile. Burnett is going to be paid at least $20M to pitch for another team with non-prospects coming in return. He’s the dictionary definition of “has no trade value”. Hughes has value, but not enough to get return commensurate with his upside, IMO.

  66. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    yf

    Not at all. As trisha alluded to, according to all reports, the players love Damon.

  67. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    Trisha, I like Damon, but beloved or not, I’d rather have a better bat. And someone who can also field.

  68. dogface February 16th, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    Garcia is not sticking around to pitch in relief.

    ==============================

    He’s under contract, no?

  69. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    yf

    Sure, but all we are hearing is Ibanez, Matsui, Damon. Vlad would be fine with me, but same issue as Damon in the field.

  70. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    df, I anticipated that response as per Burnett’s price tag, but exactly, agree. For us, Hughes will not bring back a worthy return, right now. So, need to keep him, and give him every chance to succeed. If we don’t, I don’t want to hear about our disingenuous mantra that we are trying to develop our own.

  71. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    LGY February 16th, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    This is exactly my point – you trade Burnett and then you make it an even competition between Hughes and Garcia – both make the same money, both have experience pitching in relief so it comes down to the best pitcher, nothing else factors in.

    ————

    Garcia has pitcher 4 innings in his entire career out of the bullpen.
    ———–

    Yeah but in Girardi spin he can make it out to be that Garcia “knows how to be a reliever”

    Plus, the spot up in the pen is of long reliever – Hughes was successful throwing late inning relief – so really that part of it is moot unless they also deal off either Soriano or Robertson.

  72. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 1:22 pm

    YF, I think he can still wield a pretty good bat but if you’re looking for a lot more than that, then Damon certainly isn’t that guy. At this point I’m happy with a DH who is strictly a DH. I would be happy with Damon. That said, I would never want to see him out on the field again, or at least not too often. Fat Ortiz is basically a DH for the sake of DH. I don’t see them putting his fat ass on the field too often – except in interleague play when they don’t want to lose his bat. I’m not suggesting that Damon is the kind of hitter fatso is because I truly believe Damon has remained clean of all types of milkshakes. But I don’t think a DH has to have an alternate position in him to be valuable. JMO

  73. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:22 pm

    yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    Garcia is not sticking around to pitch in relief.
    —————-

    He won’t have a choice

  74. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    Rich, a short term “solution” until we pull something else off? I just can’t believe that this is all there in terms of our 2012 plans. Just not buying it.

  75. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:23 pm

    all there *is in terms of…

  76. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    Don’t necessarily agree with that – Pineda is where Hughes was before the 2008 season. I don’t think you’re giving up Pineda for Alex Gordon. Gordon (who I like) is a guy you get for a solid mid to back of the rotation starter – essentially a guy akin to what Hughes was coming into last year.
    __

    df mentioned Butler too, who had a who’s last three OPS+ are: 125, 134, 125

    You may not trade Pineda for that, but if Hughes was worth that, you are moving a very good pitcher.

  77. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:22 pm
    yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    Garcia is not sticking around to pitch in relief.
    —————-

    He won’t have a choice
    ______
    We do though, and Garcia doesn’t profile well as a reliever.

  78. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    The good news is that it sounds like this will all be hashed out within the next 24/48 hours and we can move on to talking about how much we all hate the decisions that were made and how we’re going to really miss AJ this year :-)

  79. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 1:25 pm

    Geeze, I love Freddy truly but I’d hate to see an effective Hughes be relegated to the pen at the age of 24, in favor of a 34-year-old fill in.

    Let me say this. I’m happy it’s the Yanks problem and not mine.

  80. J. Alfred Prufrock February 16th, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    Betances developed his change while he was rehabbing, but had a natural feel for it, so it came pretty quickly. It was plus in 2010, but he didn’t use it as much in 2011, so interesting to see how it will look in 2012. Manny ditto in terms of time he needed to improve his curve
    ///

    Yankeefem, it’s true that rehab season really allowed Betances to lay home that third pitch. He had the serenity of not having to take a turn in the rotation to really meditatively focus on it, and as you say, it’s a natural coming out of his hand.

    I think Betances had that pitch taken away from him in 2011 during long stretches because they wanted him to dwell on the fastball command, and then when he went back to it, he said he had to kinda re-learn the feel, there, and just ran out of season starts. Good thing Contreras had him come do extra work on it to get it back. It’s a nasty piece of work, though. Saw where Teale gave Dellin the nod for best change in the system (along with FB and curve, but those are the ones you’d expect).

    It’s endlessly fascinating how good that pitch is and how little “scouts” even acknowledge that it exists, much less how nasty it is.

    Manny’s curve has come a distance. He used to get under it much more. That one game at home (in Trenton) where it was just murder, & he barely mixed in the change, showed how far it’s come. Teale gave Manny honorable mention for the change, which some think is better than Dellin’s. I just like the depth DB gets on his. I hope they both got it all going on this year. There time is fast approaching.

  81. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:22 pm
    yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    Garcia is not sticking around to pitch in relief.
    —————-

    He won’t have a choice
    ______
    We do though, and Garcia doesn’t profile well as a reliever.
    ——————-

    Why not? You’re not asking him to close out games. This is actually a huge swing for the two guys – you’re either going to be the 5th starter or the 12th man on the staff.

  82. randy l. February 16th, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    “But not sure what it looks like now, in spite of the discussion about it. Did you watch that game from Sept. 3rd when Pineda threw the 9 changeups?”

    yankee feminista-

    i’ll try to watch that game.

    interesting observations about betances , manny, and nova. they show that pitchers learn at very different rates which was my experience when i used to catch guys when they were learning a new pitch.

    i would say that 6 weeks is a good rule of thumb when the pitch is thrown a lot. the question for me is whether or not pineda will actually throw the pitch when games start mattering. that’s been the problem with hughes and other yankee pitchers with the change.

    they say they are going to throw it and then they don’t.
    that’s what i wonder about with pineda.
    if he simply went to scranton, he’d be throwing it a lot a very game.

  83. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    Trisha, I am not a big fan of the platoon DH generally, and definitely not a fan of DH as a place to stick someone with a .743 OPS. I also like the idea of versatility, so burdening ourselves with a DH who can’t field, just shortens the bench. But seems like we undervalue DH and are happy to sign one of the available FA’s. It is what it is.

  84. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    Chip, one of the knocks against Garcia is he doesn’t warm up well. Do you bring him in only to start innings? Heck, you could have used DJ Mitchell instead, at a much lower cost.

  85. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    YF, if we had kept Montero, I think he would have been in the role of DH and not much else, right?

    Since we have Andruw already, it looks like it’s going to be a platooning situation. It appears to me that the Yankees feel they have enough offense that the DH position isn’t going to be one where they need to stick in a heavy hitter, and with shoring up the rotation, a little less offense isn’t going to kill them.

    That’s me, by the way, trying to read the organization tea leaves, which is what I always tend to do. Don’t know if I’ve hit it, but that’s the way it looks to me anyway. My personal preference would have been to have Montero in the role of DH but that didn’t work out. (I definitely read the organization tea leaves wrong on that one as I spent a lot of time guaranteeing the forum that the Yankees would NEVER trade Montero. I’m sure I even told them to take it to the bank.)

    :(

  86. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    “Chip, one of the knocks against Garcia is he doesn’t warm up well. Do you bring him in only to start innings? Heck, you could have used DJ Mitchell instead, at a much lower cost.”

    Which again makes one wonder about an overarching postseason strategy. For example, did Cashman want to pursue Kuroda early on, but was not given the go ahead by the suits? Did he want to try to trade AJ earlier, but again the suits refused to chow down on the contract?

    It’s just hard to conceive that they really had a coherent offseason plan.

  87. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    “the question for me is whether or not pineda will actually throw the pitch when games start mattering. that’s been the problem with hughes and other yankee pitchers with the change.

    they say they are going to throw it and then they don’t.
    that’s what i wonder about with pineda.
    if he simply went to scranton, he’d be throwing it a lot a very game.”

    Randy, this is so true. Exactly what Hughes did (not throwing the pitch/trusting it in mlb game. It will be interesting to see how many changeups Pineda actually throws in a game. We’ll all be on a “changeup watch”–counting them throughout each game during both Hughes’ and Pineda’s starts. I agree about Scranton, but Yankees will never send Pineda down. Just as they didn’t Hughes or Joba, when they should have.

  88. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    postseason = offseason

  89. J. Alfred Prufrock February 16th, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    *THEIR time is fast approaching.

    Just a quibble:
    I realize: “There time is fast approaching.” makes it sound like they are going to get swallowed up by time, which in this case would be the aggressor: “Time” would be “there”, ready to pounce and overwhelm their hopes, because it was running out on them.

    Quite the contrary: THEY are moving up to claim the spotlight, and “their” time to shine, is fast approaching.

    :D

  90. jacksquat February 16th, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    Garcia has experience in relief? How did this falsehood come about? Garcia has pitched in exactly 2 games in relief in his entire career. They even commented last season that Garcia takes a long time to warm up.

  91. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    Rich, too bad that Vlad can’t field and not sure what kind of bat he would bring in ’12, but would have loved to have had Vlad a few years ago. *Love* Vlad.

    (how do I italicize???)

    We probably didn’t know if Kuroda would or wouldn’t go back to Japan… Also I am guessing Pineda deal was unanticipated, but do not agree with those who think if Pineda didn’t pop loose that we would have kept Montero. He was always only a trade chip.

  92. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    yf

    less than sign, then type i, then greater than sign, then the word you want italics, then a / before the less than sign (to close the tag) but otherwise the same

    As for Pineda, they were pursuing Felix, and may well have been offering Montero for various starters. For example, Montero even up for Gio, but Oakland wanted more?

  93. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    “Chip, one of the knocks against Garcia is he doesn’t warm up well. Do you bring him in only to start innings? Heck, you could have used DJ Mitchell instead, at a much lower cost.”

    Which again makes one wonder about an overarching postseason strategy. For example, did Cashman want to pursue Kuroda early on, but was not given the go ahead by the suits? Did he want to try to trade AJ earlier, but again the suits refused to chow down on the contract?

    It’s just hard to conceive that they really had a coherent offseason plan.
    ——————

    I for one didn’t understand why they signed Garcia so quickly. My guess is that it was twofold:

    1. The more flashy options on the market didn’t appeal to them
    2. They didn’t want the rotation to be more of a shambles than it already was.

    The Pineda thing I don’t think Cashman saw that coming when he signed Garcia, nor do I think he thought he would be able to get Kuroda at 1 year $10 mil. The pitching market was really strange – you had a flash of big signings (Buherle and Wilson) and then absolute silence for weeks – then all of a sudden you started having teams willing to do something that teams haven’t been willing to do for years and that’s trade top end, cost controlled, young pitching.

    They did (reportedly) explore trade options for AJ at the winter meetings and at that point I think Brian fully envisioned that his rotation was going to be CC, Nova, Garcia, Hughes and Noesi.

    Trading a garbage pitcher like Burnett only becomes possible when the free agent market dries up and so dealing Burnett before guys like Kuroda and Jackson were off the market (and before Oswalt shot down the teams interested in him) wasn’t likely possible – can’t fault the Yankees for that.

    Again, I really think Cashman’s plan was to do small tweaks and then all at once he saw an opportunity to completely revamp his rotation and jumped at it.

  94. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    Pruf, yep, love that they both have plus changeups. When they graduate, their both having changeups will be huge. And Dellin’s lefty splits are telling. Now if only J-Ram can have that slider continue to progress. I love pitchers will power arms and plus changeups. See C!!! :)

  95. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    *with power arms

  96. Irreverent Discourse February 16th, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    Chip – With Garcia in the fold early for very cheap… he removes pressure on Cashman to acquire a starter, increases the Yankees leverage in the market and becomes expendable all at the same time.

  97. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    “Again, I really think Cashman’s plan was to do small tweaks and then all at once he saw an opportunity to completely revamp his rotation and jumped at it.”

    Chip

    We may never know, but my guess is that gauging what starters they could get for Montero was a primary offseason goal. Cashman repeatedly said once the playoffs ended that he would trade offense for pitching. They may have checked out what pitchers they could get for Swisher or Gardner, but for various reasons, it was apparent that it wouldn’t be much different from what they had.

  98. J. Alfred Prufrock February 16th, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    do not agree with those who think if Pineda didn’t pop loose that we would have kept Montero. He was always only a trade chip.
    ///

    Agree. In rearview, that is now perfectly clear. When I heard he wasn’t playing WB, that sick feeling in my stomach commenced:
    The desperation not to have him “exposed” at catcher,
    the Cervelli injury being the true catalyst for Montero’s eventual presence on the postseason roster,
    The seeming indifference to taking advantage of his bat to pinch hit when we needed someone who could actually square up and drive a pitch….

    What dawned on me about Cashman and Girardi is that they must have a dangerously cavalier attitude toward gifted offensive players. The trade underscores that.

  99. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    “/ before the less than sign (to close the tag) but otherwise the same”

    sorry, / after the less than sign

  100. Irreverent Discourse February 16th, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    Agree. In rearview, that is now perfectly clear.

    A lot of people have been saying that for months and have been dragged through the coals around here. Now it’s “obvious”…

  101. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue February 16th, 2012 at 1:33 pm
    YF, if we had kept Montero, I think he would have been in the role of DH and not much else, right?

    Since we have Andruw already, it looks like it’s going to be a platooning situation. It appears to me that the Yankees feel they have enough offense that the DH position isn’t going to be one where they need to stick in a heavy hitter, and with shoring up the rotation, a little less offense isn’t going to kill them.
    ________
    I would have hoped we would both DH and give Montero opportunities to progress as a catcher, but that ship has sailed.

    Yes, platooning makes the most sense with Andruw here to mash LHP. I still would love a hitter for both average and some power. And going forward, I hope we value the DH role more. It would take pressure off the rest of the lineup, especially vs. RHP in 4-5-6 slots (when we don’t know what Alex, Teix, and Swish will give us vs. RHP) and with a light hitting catcher in the mix. Our circular lineup is no more, but it doesn’t have to be that way, going forward. Pitching plus offense that is situationally sound is what I am after. :)

  102. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:52 pm

    Irreverent Discourse February 16th, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    Chip – With Garcia in the fold early for very cheap… he removes pressure on Cashman to acquire a starter, increases the Yankees leverage in the market and becomes expendable all at the same time.
    ————–

    That could be it – Cashman struck early (Garcia and Sabathia) and then had the luxury of sitting back and waiting until other things developed.

  103. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    “A lot of people have been saying that for months and have been dragged through the coals around here. Now it’s “obvious”…”

    Like second marriages, having confidence in your team’s FO may be the triumph of hope over experience.

  104. DONNYBROOK February 16th, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    Garcia was signed as insurance against a worst case scenario. Remember, Jack Z approached Cashman regarding Montero NIX King Felix. Pineda was unexpected.

  105. J. Alfred Prufrock February 16th, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:45 pm
    Pruf, yep, love that they both have plus changeups. When they graduate, their both having changeups will be huge. And Dellin’s lefty splits are telling. Now if only J-Ram can have that slider continue to progress. I love pitchers will power arms and plus changeups. See C!!!
    ///

    Jose Ramirez was something to watch in the one start I saw live. Really beautiful throwing motion, hitting both sides of the plate, and by this setting hitters up for that gorgeous changeup. He must have been particularly on that day, because he was effortless and untouchable.

    Betances’ splits and his GB rates makes me confident in him, even in the Stadium. If he can get back to 2010 in terms of control/command, he’ll be far less likely to go the way of many a RH power pitcher in the Stadium. When he’s in sync, it’s a no fly zone :D.

  106. Chip February 16th, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    “Again, I really think Cashman’s plan was to do small tweaks and then all at once he saw an opportunity to completely revamp his rotation and jumped at it.”

    Chip

    We may never know, but my guess is that gauging what starters they could get for Montero was a primary offseason goal. Cashman repeatedly said once the playoffs ended that he would trade offense for pitching. They may have checked out what pitchers they could get for Swisher or Gardner, but for various reasons, it was apparent that it wouldn’t be much different from what they had.
    —————————-

    Well I think it was pretty clear that Cashman and Girardi were uncomfortable with the notion of Montero catching or being a full time DH. But part of what ID said earlier plays here.

    By getting Garcia and Sabathia done early Cashman was in a position where he could make a major trade but wasn’t in a spot where he needed to make one.

    I don’t think he ever thought that AJ was going to be part of the 2012 team but like I said – you can’t move him until all other options have dried up.

  107. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    Pruf, Rich

    Thus, Cashman’s constant off season refrain about getting a Number 2 was a dead giveaway that “you know who” was always going to be the mega-trade chip in the package.

    (Thanks for italicizing info, Rich!)

  108. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:57 pm

    Chip

    But that was also self-defeating in terms of adding a quality DH, assuming that you believe, as I do, that balance rather than pitching wins.

  109. J. Alfred Prufrock February 16th, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    Irreverent Discourse February 16th, 2012 at 1:51 pm
    Agree. In rearview, that is now perfectly clear.

    A lot of people have been saying that for months and have been dragged through the coals around here. Now it’s “obvious”…
    ///

    What is it exactly that you want?

    How does what people “around here” said have anything at all to do with my having erroneously given the Yankees credit for understanding how important Montero was to this team?

    It was more of a hope than a belief, in all honesty. I can dig up more than a few posts of MINE that opined aloud that Girardi would cost the Yankees Montero.

    The one, that they valued him appropriately, was a hope.
    The other, that they did not, was a fear, and a foreboding.

    But on.

  110. J. Alfred Prufrock February 16th, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 1:53 pm
    “A lot of people have been saying that for months and have been dragged through the coals around here. Now it’s “obvious”…”

    Like second marriages, having confidence in your team’s FO may be the triumph of hope over experience.
    ///

    I missed this. Quite.

  111. Irreverent Discourse February 16th, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Prufrock – I don’t want anything, It’s just nice to see that your coming to terms with this Montero deal for what it was. You were pretty unbearable to talk to about it for a while there…

  112. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    Irreverent Discourse February 16th, 2012 at 2:02 pm
    Prufrock – I don’t want anything, It’s just nice to see that your coming to terms with this Montero deal for what it was. You were pretty unbearable to talk to about it for a while there…

    ID, as opposed to for what it wasn’t???

  113. J. Alfred Prufrock February 16th, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    And by the way, it has been a very hard lesson to swallow that Brian Cashman and Joe Girardi possess the same level of insight as a certain poster here who shall remain nameless, but one who has been spitting saliva all over my screen for in imploring the baseball gods to rid the Yankees of Montero.

  114. Irreverent Discourse February 16th, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    Like second marriages, having confidence in your team’s FO may be the triumph of hope over experience.

    This would apply to both having confidence and not having confidence in them though…

    … but then I see that there is still no concession at all here about Montero’s alleged “importance to the team” so I’ll just drop it.

  115. J. Alfred Prufrock February 16th, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    Prufrock – I don’t want anything
    ///

    Good! Me, neither :D

  116. Irreverent Discourse February 16th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    yankeefeminista – is there some reason you tote around prufrocks coattails?

  117. Irreverent Discourse February 16th, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    Prufrock – I’ve tried to mend this broken fence like 10 times now, you seem intent on just being a know-it-all jerk.

  118. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    ID, hardly. It was a genuine question as a reader of the blog and someone who did not like the Montero deal. The deal for “what it was” vs. what it wasn’t means what exactly?

  119. Irreverent Discourse February 16th, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    yankeefeminista – I was just curious, a lot of times I post something for him to read and you are the one that picks up on it :)

    He’s been painting it under a completely different light for the last 2 months… making any concessions towards “there might have been real reasons other than incompetence on cashman and girardi’s part” is progress… :)

    I see he’s not quite there yet, though. Still needling and jabbing with insults at anyone who thought differently.

  120. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    “… but then I see that there is still no concession at all here about Montero’s alleged “importance to the team” so I’ll just drop it.”

    That remains to be seen though, right?

  121. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    test/

  122. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    test

  123. Irreverent Discourse February 16th, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    rich in NJ – Technically no, you should only judge the deal as it was made… the results of it playing out can be effected by the deal itself.

  124. yankeefeminista February 16th, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Ok, got it Rich. Now how do I cross out? :)

  125. Rich in NJ February 16th, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    same process, yf, but type strike instead of i

    ID

    Then it revert back to what one thinks of the FO’s judgment.

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