Mayo: OF Exicardo Cayones is the second prospect in the Burnett deal
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 17, 2012 
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I have to believe the Yankees simply could not say no to someone named Exicardo…
MLB.com’s Jonathan Mayo reports that the second Pirates prospect in the A.J. Burnett deal is believed to be outfielder Exicardo Cayones. Still just 20 years old, Cayones has yet to play full-season ball. He’s a career .272/.372/.380 hitter in the lowest levels of the minors. He’s spent most of his time in left field, with a few appearances in center and right. He was apparently the most expensive Latin American amateur ever signed by the Pirates.
The only thing that stands out to me is the on-base percentage. Obviously he’s pretty young and raw.
Good – now people can get dusty thinking about Coyones, Mason Williams and Zolio Almonte all playing together in 2015
The guy has big balls.
Bret The Hitman February 17th, 2012 at 2:59 pm
The guy has big balls.
——————
I knew someone was going to go there.
I’ve decided to prospect hug Exicardo Cayones based on name alone. I heart him.
swbyankeesTT
Asked a friend who knows Pirates system about Diego Moreno. Said he can really bring it, up to 97 mph. But a bit of a head case, too.
Good luck to AJ too. He helped us win a title and no one can take that away from him.
Now that he’s a Pirate I wonder if he’ll rock an eye patch? It could help. I’m just saying…I bet Neil Allen would have thought of the eye patch idea before trading him. Nardi’s a moron.
If he could use his name in Words with Friends, he’d win every time
You know, reading posts here oftentimes feels like entering day of the jackal.
Here’s a poem for inspiration:
It is not much
To give a gentle word or kindly touch
To one gone down
Beneath the world’s cold frown,
And yet who knows
How great a thing from such a little grows?
O, oftentimes,
Some brother upward climbs
And hope again
Uplifts its head, that in the dust had lain,
Gives place to morning’s light.
**********************
I get inspirational emails every day and I thought one that I got today was pretty interesting in its timing!
Who redeems your life from the pit, Who crowns you with loving kindness and compassion; Who satisfies your years with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle
A little poetic license on my part, but I’d say that AJ going to Pittsburgh (aka the pit) will end up being an elixir for the Yankees.
Kindness, people, kindness.
“Who redeems your life from the pit, Who crowns you with loving kindness and compassion; Who satisfies your years with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle”
Brian Cashman.
stuckey -
Knicks suddenly have a PG and a shooter for D’Antoni’s system. It really happened overnight but look at this squad now.
Tyson Chandler
Amare Stoudamire
Carmelo Anthony
JR Smith
Jeremy Lin
Fields
Shumpert
B. Davis
This team will be a tough matchup for anybody
That’s NOT Brian Cashman. That’s what Cloud Dancing said in Episode 4 of Dr Quinn Medicine Woman.
Patrick -I dont see how I’ve been proven wrong by any stretch of the imagination so… when you stop just assuming you are right maybe we can talk again. Until then, you’ve proven yourself unworthy of my time. I don’t care if you care about that, I do.
—
You’ve been proven wrong by quotes that jerkface has posted basically saying word for word that the Cameron deal was vetoed due to payroll.
I am actually quite willing to accept being wrong on almost any subject, and I have done so on this blog. Ask randy. The problem is, you have literally posted nothing to prove your point beyond speculation.
Don’t be surprised when you get trolled next time you say dumb stuff…
Given all the bad moves the Yanks have made it’s pretty odd to be dumping on the Cameron-Melky non-trade.
Melky’s line in the 2009 ALCS:
9-23/.391/.462/.478/.940
Who’s to say what happens if Cameron gets those ABs?
Also, when you trade away a young, controlled player, you trade his future. Melky put up a 121 OPS+ last year, easily the best full season of any post-Cano position player developed by the Yankees. Now that Montero’s gone, what’s the over/under year for the next Yankee developed player to OPS+ 120 for the Yanks?
2016? 2017?
To return to the theme of the guest post of the day, that’s a lot of patience.
“209 pre-trade assuming league minimum and arb, -5 for 204. Went by baseball-ref. Cots has us at 207 before a bunch of pre-arb contracts (Pineda, Nova, Nunez, Cervelli) so its definitely NOT 199.”
gotcha
Sounds like the Yanks got about as much upside in players as can be expected in the deal…..
Given all the bad moves the Yanks have made it’s pretty odd to be dumping on the Cameron-Melky non-trade.
–
Its not dumping on it! Its just saying that there is evidence that Hal will veto trades if the money doesnt line up for him. Which is why signing Ibanez for 2 million is not made in a vacuum, it will affect their dealings at the deadline.
Bret,
We all need to wait-and-see on Baron Davis. And I don’t know if you’re implying Smith will be in the starting line-up, I’m not sure I see that happening, certainly not right away.
And D’Antoni has 36 games to figure out how to make it all work, including a very tough March.
That said, I’d add Novak, Harrellson and Jefferies to that list.
If Melky puts up another 120 OPS+ he will back in pinstripes. He has been dumped once and you’d have to have a pretty wild imagination to predict he would repeat his mistakes of the past and allow it to happen again. This guy was in the organization for nearly a decade. He’s not going to squander an opportunity again. He knows damn well they won’t hesitate to ship him out.
Melky is clutch.
blake February 17th, 2012 at 3:20 pm
Sounds like the Yanks got about as much upside in players as can be expected in the deal…..
———————
I’m shocked that they got as much as they did – the pitcher has a plus pitch and the OF is young enough to have some potential and was someone the Yankees thought highly enough of that they pursued him as an IFA.
“Good luck to AJ too. He helped us win a title and no one can take that away from him.”
yup…that one game arguably made his signing worthwhile. I wish AJ the best….I hope he turns it around and does well for the Pirates.
And the Cameron deadline deal did not include Cabrera, though they almost traded Cabrera str8 up for Cameron prior to the 2009 season.
Jerkface February 17th, 2012 at 3:21 pm
Given all the bad moves the Yanks have made it’s pretty odd to be dumping on the Cameron-Melky non-trade.
–
Its not dumping on it! Its just saying that there is evidence that Hal will veto trades if the money doesnt line up for him. Which is why signing Ibanez for 2 million is not made in a vacuum, it will affect their dealings at the deadline.
————-
The problem is that you’re using one example to try and prove a rule.
Hal vetoed the Cameron deal yes he did – no doubt about it.
How many trades where the Yankees have added payroll has he allowed?
Stuckey,
Fields may start but I see J.R. Smith getting equal-more minutes by the playoffs. I hope they can make it work in time for the playoffs. Lots of new faces…but the talent level has skyrocketed and the weapons seem to be in place finally. The team is going to get a ton of support from fans all oer the world in the playoffs. The swagger should be there. Emotions should run high and the Knicks are poised to shock some people.
bret – i don’t follow the knicks as much as i once did, back in the day…… who is this jr smith guy, and why is he a good pickup for the knicks?
by the way, how did you’re night out with the coeds go, the other night? any good stories
Chip,
By the way….I just won our bragging rights bet
VERY slow day around here when the name Cameron comes up.
blake February 17th, 2012 at 3:27 pm
Chip,
By the way….I just won our bragging rights bet
——————–
You are correct – that makes us even for the John Danks thing
Bret,
I don’t know, I’m confident Lin-Stat-Melo can work, but that’s a LOT of shots between 3 players. Yes Lin only took 6 shots the other night, but they aren’t going to play the Kings every night.
His effectiveness will likely always be tied with keeping defenses honest.
I assume you’re seeing Smith has the more dynamic, talented player, but Fields may still be the best fit in a line-up that’s going to get 30+ minutes a night.
Patrick – Don’t be surprised when you get trolled next time you say dumb stuff…
Actually that quote is also pure speculation, as you can’t know the real reasons for them making any moves unless you are in the room when they do it. So no, I haven’t been “proven wrong” but you can keep claiming that if you want.
It also doesn’t change the fact that I completely agree with them not making the deal because I didn’t think it was a good deal to make at the time either.
Your apparently propensity for “turning trolling on and off” has me convinced that ignoring you is the best course of action. We both know that’s an impossible threat to uphold, just know that I will be trying my best.
We were having a relatively civil conversation, you decided to go back and post “how much I got owned” like a gossiping little schoolgirl. When I say “grow up”, I am not joking at all.
Joe,
I ended up at a local girl’s apartment near the bar and stayed there until 4 am. They wanted me out last night as did one of the girls in my major but I was freakin’ shot from the other night. I will sleep with this other one soon enough though. She’s pretty charged!!!
J.R. Smith is a sharp shooter (he can dunk like a madman as well). I think he shot 39% from 3 pt range in 2011 and is a career 37% shooter from 3. He’s young, athletic and fast. He averages nearly 13 pts. per game and has played with Melo in Denver. He’s a bit of a thug and a street baller/brawler but his confidence/swagger is through the roof.
The Knicks are 26th from 3 pt. range.
They really needed this guy and he’s super excited to be a knick.
Their biggest deal has been for Berkman, and the astros had to kick in more than half.
Its just saying that there is evidence that Hal will veto trades if the money doesnt line up for him
Why don’t you just say “when the deal doesn’t make sense” rather than trying to pigeon-hole this into being all about money? Then we can skip the 10 pages of back-and-forth over Cameron’s actual value.
Moreno is a hard-throwing right-hander, at one point the hardest-throwing pitcher in the Pirates’ system, reaching up to 98 mph. That’s exceptionally hard for someone who weighs only 177 pounds, but the Pirates began souring on him last summer in large part because of that suspension in 2010. Moreno was kissing a fan in the Class AA Altoona bullpen during a game and was suspended a week for “unprofessional conduct.” In general, the team saw immaturity issues on and off the mound and, later that winter, left him exposed in the Rule 5 draft. No one claimed him.
“You are correct – that makes us even for the John Danks thing ”
hey I don’t recall betting on Danks….just probably talking about him way too much
OK jf, I accept your response; I admit to being alert to anything that comes across as a knock on the Melk-man (and I don’t think Cashman will ever take him back).
Why don’t you just say “when the deal doesn’t make sense” rather than trying to pigeon-hole this into being all about money? Then we can skip the 10 pages of back-and-forth over Cameron’s actual value.
–
Well its conclusive that Cameron was worth more than 5 million… don’t think you can get out of that one or his being better than Melky.
Sherman said Hal vetoed the trade because it cost too much. How much clearer could it get?
“Moreno was kissing a fan in the Class AA Altoona bullpen during a game and was suspended a week for “unprofessional conduct.””
The Yankees can have David Cone take him under his wing.
When the owner vetos a deal that the baseball people want….it’s usually about the money
“Moreno was kissing a fan in the Class AA Altoona bullpen during a game and was suspended a week for “unprofessional conduct.”
Maybe it was Tabata’s wife?
Stuckey,
I like Fields. I just think the threat of J.R. Smith from 3 and the presence of Lin spreads the floor and helps Melo and Stoudamire exploit defenses. This team suddenly has the looks of a team that can do some serious damage. I think it ranks up there with D’Antoni’s Suns teams of the past with Marion, Stoudamire and Nash. This team is deep and balanced and has a ton of swagger right now.
I think I didn’t fully explain my 40 hr from the DH spot clearly……If they do sign Raul Ibanez and he splits most of the ab’s with Jones along with the occasional ab’s going to guys like Alex, Texeria, Granderson and Jeter, the Yanks can achieve 40 dingers or very close to that …….I would like to see Laird get a shot as the corner infield guy but the club might think he’s a year away …….Nuenz has to get the nod over Pena but man I hope his footwork is improved from last season………Knicks a 11 1/2 point favorite tonight, when was the last time we saw that !!!
Jerkface February 17th, 2012 at 3:31 pm
Their biggest deal has been for Berkman, and the astros had to kick in more than half.
—————–
Javy Vazquez
Berkman
Kearns
Kerry Wood
Eric Hinske
Jerry Hairston
and even when the Yankees did have the other team take back money it still raised Yankee payroll to add those guys.
“While I disagree with the premise, I appreciate the craft.”
I don’t know what you think the premise was, so the craft actually might have been lacking.
“No carpal-tunnel to speak of, but I appreciate the concern.”
I wasn’t concerned about that — I know how to use Ctrl-V as well — but empathizing because I also get exasperated by something here I can’t control but wish I could influence.
“MaineYankee February 17th, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Nick in SF
So what are the odds on who will pay you first?”
When you bet on soccer games, you have to take into account that there are three possible outcomes: win, lost, and draw. So if you’re asking what the odds are on stuckey settling up before Bret the Hitman or vice versa, you also have to take into account the possible third outcome that neither will ever pay up. And I guess the fourth outcome that I receive both payments on the same day? Pretty long odds on that last one…
blake February 17th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
When the owner vetos a deal that the baseball people want….it’s usually about the money
——————
What about when the owner signs a player that the baseball people don’t want
Id,
Oh no whatever shall I do now that you are ignoring me!? Im still going to tell you that you are wrong when it happens, like today.
$$$ Shouldn’t be the deciding factor. The Yanks got $$$ runnin’ outta their ears. Either a move is good for the on field product or not. THAT should be the basis for a Hal Yea or Nay. Same goes for squeekin’ over AJ and how much the Yanks were gonna eat\$$$.
Chip,
The Indians paid all but 1.5 million of the deal. Kearns cost 500k or less. Vazquez was in the offseason so not the same. Hinske, Hairston Jr those guys cost under 2 million total.
So because of THE BUDGET, we did not get Mike Cameron and instead get Eric Hinske? Wow ok cool didn’t know this budget thing was an issue if we can acquire a guy like Hinske whenever we damn please
Bret,
I think the spacing thing is overrated a tad. Knicks need a 3 pt maker because they take a LOT of three pointers – simple as that.
No one is leaving Fields utterly alone in the corner. It’s not like Smith is going to make the defender stand 2 or 3 feet closer.
Smith’s value is he’ll MAKE the 3 pointer more than anyone by Novak.
Now let’s go get this Roster completed so we can play ball.
Renaldo Balkman cut to make room for JR Smith. Not a shocker.
Also won’t be a shocker when Toney Douglas gets traded for a late first or second round pick.
Well its conclusive that Cameron was worth more than 5 million
Is it? Where is the split for his second half WAR? He was .241/.311/.432/.743, so outside of giving him total UZR and baserunning credit (which you have argued against doing in the past for other players) he could easily have been worth less than 1 WAR for the second half…
“$$$ Shouldn’t be the deciding factor. ”
Not at the margins, which is what we are talking about.
Jerkface February 17th, 2012 at 3:39 pm
So because of THE BUDGET, we did not get Mike Cameron and instead get Eric Hinske? Wow ok cool didn’t know this budget thing was an issue if we can acquire a guy like Hinske whenever we damn please
————————
Did Eric Hinske hurt the Yankees – wait, what’s that you say – the Yankees WON the world series that year…but how? How is that possible????
- PAT -
I wanna see the Yanks get 40 Dongs outta the DH Slot. That would certainly be something.
“Asked a friend who knows Pirates system about Diego Moreno. Said he can really bring it, up to 97 mph. But a bit of a head case, too.”
So basically, we got a younger AJ Burnett
think I didn’t fully explain my 40 hr from the DH spot clearly……If they do sign Raul Ibanez and he splits most of the ab’s with Jones along with the occasional ab’s going to guys like Alex, Texeria, Granderson and Jeter, the Yanks can achieve 40 dingers or very close to that
–
But then the HRs from Alex, Tex, Grandy, and Jeter that come from the DH spot reduce their HRs from the spots they were playing. How about we count the HRs Alex, Tex, Grandy, and Jeter will hit as their own which they will hit regardless because they are on the team, and talk about the ADDITIONAL amount of HRs we are going to get from Ibanez if he signs.
This is why you can’t include A-rod, et al in a DH discussion, because when they DH they are being replaced at their primary positions… so the true DH production is coming from those bench players that play when the DH is filled by another player. Its an assumption that Nunez / Chavez / Ibanez / Jones will play MORE than they would have were there just a DH.
If we rotate the DH the assumption is that we will rest those other guys MORE than they would have been rested, and thus we are only worried about the increased playing time of nunez, chavez, ibanez, and jones.
What is THAT worth and why can’t we do better?
MSG Time- issues resolved. Linsanity live tonight!!
patrick- I have no problem with you telling me I’m wrong. I have a problem with what you did today, especially since you seem to be proud of yourself.
Nick in SF – if had to recommend some lohuddite with whom to bet, premised upon timely payment, who would you recommend?
Just curious.
So long AJ, and thanks for all the fish.
bret – thanks for the info on smith.
ah, the days of being young……….
But then the HRs from Alex, Tex, Grandy, and Jeter that come from the DH spot reduce their HRs from the spots they were playing
They all already spend 10 games as the DH a piece, do you subtract those numbers from them when looking at last years stats and projecting them for this year? No… that would be insane. No one does that.
Hal probably couldn’t even pick Cameron out of a lineup card, yet he vetoed the deal because of money. Not for baseball reasons, but for money.
Cashman and the baseball people decided that he would be a good fit at the appropriate cost. Hal didn’t want to spend money on him.
Unless the argument is that Hal knows more about baseball/Mike Cameron than the GM and his scouts do.
Rhapsody – I sure hope it’s televised on NBA tv or ESPN, or I will be once again relegated to watching on my laptop.
I shouldn’t complain I guess. It’s better than not watching.
“I don’t know what you think the premise was, so the craft actually might have been lacking.”
Wow… read it again, then imagine yourself intending to make an sardonic reference to the Montero character speculation/debate.
Not intended?
Funny*…
(*to me)
“but empathizing because I also get exasperated by something here I can’t control but wish I could influence.”
When it becomes anything less than entertaining I’ll do what I did last May and will likely do so again after the regular season starts, find another way to be entertained.
“Hal probably couldn’t even pick Cameron out of a lineup card”
Nice.
EA – Not for baseball reasons, but for money.
What if the baseball reasons weren’t good enough to justify the money? How is EVERY trade not accepted or declined on this same merit… only this one?
Trisha it should be on MSG tonight the impasse is over.
Rhapsody – I don’t get MSG.
Is it? Where is the split for his second half WAR? He was .241/.311/.432/.743, so outside of giving him total UZR and baserunning credit (which you have argued against doing in the past for other players) he could easily have been worth less than 1 WAR for the second half…
–
Just going back of the hand calculations he was worth atleast 1 WAR for August alone. Thats 1 win without defense. Melky was worth 1.6 all year.
Hal probably couldn’t even pick Cameron out of a lineup card, yet he vetoed the deal because of money. Not for baseball reasons, but for money.
———————–
In fairness, Cashman had just spent the winter handing out huge amounts of Hal’s money to CC, AJ and Tex – I can understand him turning around and saying “um, you told me if I spent there that’s what you would need to win, now you want more? No.”
“Unless the argument is that Hal knows more about baseball/Mike Cameron than the GM and his scouts do.”
Based on Cashman’s moves/evaluations this winter, that might not be far off
Sorry trish.
At least Sunday’s game is on ABC.
“Nick in SF – if had to recommend some lohuddite with whom to bet, premised upon timely payment, who would you recommend?”
That would be a tie between you and Patrick, who has paid off each of his bets very quickly.
Erica also lost a bet to me but it was offset by a bet I lost to her, but I have no doubt she would have paid up and quickly.
I would put Pat M. on that list too, although he and I have never bet against each other. I know he paid up to Erica quickly when he lost a bet to her and I would trust him in general regardless.
They all already spend 10 games as the DH a piece, do you subtract those numbers from them when looking at last years stats and projecting them for this year? No… that would be insane. No one does that.
–
What? I’m talking about this ’40 Hrs from the DH’ argument, which is that Alex, Grandy, and whomever are also contributing to the total. This doesn’t work. When we look at the Yankees, we are looking at their total contribution right.
If the Yankees hit 200 HRs we want to know how much come from A-rod, Grandy, Cano, etc. We aren’t saying that A-rod is going to hit 40 HRs, so third base is fine, then transpose some of those Hrs over to the DH. They are already there for A-rod and third.
Every HR you add to the DH spot from a regular that is rested there is 1 less from their primary position.
I hope the Yanks get Damon. Ibanez gets eaten up by lefties, and opposing managers will take advantage of that. Damon hits lefties as well as righties (better last year), and can stay in the game. No need to chase the mid-season trade fantasy.
Just sign Damon, and go on to ST.
Wave Your Hat February 17th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
I hope the Yanks get Damon. Ibanez gets eaten up by lefties, and opposing managers will take advantage of that. Damon hits lefties as well as righties (better last year), and can stay in the game. No need to chase the mid-season trade fantasy.
Just sign Damon, and go on to ST.
————
Ibanez won’t play vs. Lefties.
“Sorry trish.
At least Sunday’s game is on ABC.”
I’m there! Maybe NBA or ESPN will broadcast the Heat.
I read this morning that the Knicks moved into the top ten in NBA Power Rankings. (Celts and #15)
He he he!
Jones hit 13 HRs last year, Ibanez hit 20. How many we going to get from each regardless of where they play? Since there is no difference to a lineup that has Jones LF and Grandy DH or Jones DH and Grandy CF its just moving around labels.
Celts are #15
Ibanez won’t play vs. Lefties.
–
Relievers. Andruw Jones got PA > 0 against Righties last year. So Ibanez will inevitably face lefties, maybe even start vs some.
“Ibanez won’t play vs. Lefties.”
Yes he will, mark my words.
Just going back of the hand calculations he was worth atleast 1 WAR for August alone.
You’re going to have to explain your method for calculating this a little better than that. I’m not taking any assumptions from you today :p
Does AJ have to pass a mental exam before this deal is done? If so, I would not pack his bags just yrt.
Nick – that was a very transparent fish for compliments on my part!
You’re going to have to explain your method for calculating this a little better than that. I’m not taking any assumptions from you today
–
http://www.insidethebook.com/e.....ulate_war/
I agree with your trust list, BTW
“Wow… read it again, then imagine yourself intending to make an sardonic reference to the Montero character speculation/debate.”
Wow what? It’s highly unimportant, but I was just curious what you thought the premise was, since you mentioned disagreeing with it.
Did you think I was tweaking the Yankees for bailing on Montero because of character issues or did you think I was tweaking people who think the Yankees bailed on Montero because of character issues? It was supposed to be the latter, but someone could have easily thought it was the former, so maybe it wasn’t such good craft on my part.
“When it becomes anything less than entertaining I’ll do what I did last May and will likely do so again after the regular season starts, find another way to be entertained.”
Will you pay up before that happens? Before Easter happens? Before Mardi Gras happens? Before Presidents Day happens? Or…. when?
Anyone for a bet that the Sux won’t make the playoffs once again?
Step right up!
(That means I am betting they won’t make the playoffs. Anyone taking the bet would be betting they will.)
Wave Your Hat February 17th, 2012 at 3:55 pm
“Ibanez won’t play vs. Lefties.”
Yes he will, mark my words.
————-
consider them marked.
Nick in SF-
Will you please send me the secret decoder ring so I can understand your 3:59 pm comment?
Thanks,
WYH
“When it becomes anything less than entertaining I’ll do what I did last May and will likely do so again after the regular season starts, find another way to be entertained.”
stuckey, unless you’re entertained by “fans” grousing when a Yankee player goes through a cold spell or if the cold spell goes on for an extended period of time, deciding it’s time to trade the player, you might want to find more cheery environs…
By the way – in addition to David Wright – my early target for the winter of 2012 – Delmon Young. Only if the Yankees don’t trade for either Alex Gordon or Josh Reddick.
Chip February 17th, 2012 at 3:54 pm
Wave Your Hat February 17th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
I hope the Yanks get Damon. Ibanez gets eaten up by lefties, and opposing managers will take advantage of that. Damon hits lefties as well as righties (better last year), and can stay in the game. No need to chase the mid-season trade fantasy.
Just sign Damon, and go on to ST.
————
Ibanez won’t play vs. Lefties.
—
Unless someone gets hurt, then it might be nice to have Damon. Also if Gardner sucks vs lhp, you can put Jones or Damon in the OF and the other at DH.
JoelSherman1
#Yankees wanted more $$ saved in ’13 in AJ deal for financial flexibility and to lower luxury-tax payroll further. Felt were OK in ’12.
Of $5M saved in ’12, #Yankees plan to get Chavez for about $1M and Ibanez for about $1M, though Damon lingers as DH possibility
WYH:
It really only makes sense in the context of a back-and-forth with stuckey from a previous thread, and even the only barely so. It started when I said this about exciting new Yankee prospect Diego Moreno:
“Very crafty of the Yanks to take on a player with so-called disciplinary issues but has such enormous upside. I like how they look past that superficial stuff and trust that their organization can mold the player to fit their expectations.”
And stuckey said this:
“While I disagree with the premise, I appreciate the craft.”
“Of $5M saved in ’12, #Yankees plan to get Chavez for about $1M and Ibanez for about $1M, though Damon lingers as DH possibility”
Again, here’s hoping blake is right, and the Yankees and Damon sober up and make a deal.
HALLELUJAH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The real benefactors are the young arms knowing they don’t have 2 years of Burnett blocking their progress.
The position players don’t report for another week so there’s still time for Cashman to sign the LH / DH to fill out the roster.
The best starting lineup for the Knicks:
PG – Lin
SG – Shumpert
SF – Amare
PF – Amare
C – Chandler
Bench:
PG – Baron Davis
SG – JR Smith
SF – Landry Fields
PF – Josh Harrelson, Novak
C – DeAndre Jordan
Correction………………
spidanyc February 17th, 2012 at 4:07 pm
The best starting lineup for the Knicks:
PG ? Lin
SG ? Shumpert
SF ? Melo
PF ? Amare
C ? Chandler
Bench:
PG ? Baron Davis
SG ? JR Smith
SF ? Landry Fields
PF ? Josh Harrelson, Novak
C ? DeAndre Jordan
Moreno can help the Yankees gets over Romulo Sanchez. That’s who I think of, but I agree at least they got a couple guys with theoretical upsides.
No Melo?
Jerkface – Sure you calculated that properly?
Month – wOBA – wOBA converted to WAR
June .256 -4.75
July .373 2.02
August .352 .8
September .301 -2.1
+.5 for CF
Leaves him at -3.5WAR for his stick for those months…
That’s a lot of ground for his defense and baserunning to make up, essentially being a worse than replacement level bat for those 4 months. You have personally derided me for relying on base-runs and UZR-runs in the past… does that apply now?
Anyway, I don’t think they will start two rookies in the backcourt this season.
“stuckey, unless you’re entertained by “fans” grousing when a Yankee player goes through a cold spell or if the cold spell goes on for an extended period of time, deciding it’s time to trade the player, you might want to find more cheery environs…”
I did last year.
And the Heat game is on TNT.
The real benefactors are the young arms knowing they don’t have 2 years of Burnett blocking their progress.
———————————————————————
Amen. I’m just glad he’s gone. No more waiting for him to implode, throw wild pitches, etc.
PG ? Lin
SG ? Shumpert
SF ? Melo
PF ? Amare
C ? Chandler
Bench:
PG ? Baron Davis
SG ? JR Smith
SF ? Landry Fields
PF ? Josh Harrelson, Novak
C ? DeAndre Jordan
——————————–
I wish the Knicks had DeAndre Jordon
patrick- I have no problem with you telling me I’m wrong. I have a problem with what you did today, especially since you seem to be proud of yourself.
—
Well I’m sorry you have problems and feel wronged. But this is a blog dude, if you say silly things someone is going to call you out.
How do the Knicks end up with DeAndre Jordan?
patrick- I’m sorry you felt the need to go back and bring up a conversation you were not involved in to brag about how wrong I was.
That doesn’t excuse you from acting the way you did, when you clearly expect respect and understanding in return.
Actually my top FA target will likely be either Yadier or Napoli or Miguel Montero.
My all free agent team based on next year’s FA’s. (this is my way of saying I’m officially bored with the current conversations)
C – Yadier
1b – Napoli
2b – Brandon Phillips (assuming options on Robbie and Kinsler are picked up)
SS – Aybar
3b – CGWWW
LF – Delmon Young
CF – Bourn
RF – Ethier
DH – Carlos Lee
Bench: Melk Man, Miguel Montero, Carlos Pena, Ryan Theriot
Rotation:
Hamels
Greinke
Cain
Liriano
Floyd
(I assume options on Haren and Shields will be picked up)
Pen:
Closer – Rivera (Street if Rivera retires)
RHP – Street, Madson, K-Rod, League
LHP: Sean Marshall and Shawn Burnett
He is just confusing him with our Jerome
Trish,
I think the Sox may make the playoffs, but I can’t divide my betting interest with my detest ion of the Sox.
Were we to find a bet, I too am trustworthy. You big city lawyers make me a little nervous though.
So Bill Hall is being brought to camp to back up the injury plagued back up 3rd baseban who is backing up the injury plagued starting 3rd baseman?
patrick – I don’t have problems, I’m merely disappointed. Yours was an opinion on this blog I respected until about 2 hours ago.
It’s a dying breed around here, and you crossed yourself off my list for no good reason.
Thanks, Nick in SF. I missed that thread, so I was right a decoder ring was needed.
Trisha, I’ll bet you the Red Sox will finish with a better record than the Orioles.
Not sure about making the postseason, they may or may not add the second wild card this season. Isn’t that still an open question?
Sure you calculated that properly?
–
Did you use .336 instead of .338? .338 is not part of the formula its the league average OBP
blake February 17th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
So Bill Hall is being brought to camp to back up the injury plagued back up 3rd baseban who is backing up the injury plagued starting 3rd baseman?
—————–
No. Bill Hall is being brought in to back up the young utility infielder who is backing up the injury plagued back up third baseman who is backing up the potentially injury plagued starting 3b.
Hall is insurance against ever having to see Ramiro Pena again.
They are going to sign Damon and Chavez. Damon for about 3 million with incentives and Chavez for a free medical bills for a year coupon. That’ll put their payroll roughly what it was last year.
“So Bill Hall is being brought to camp to back up the injury plagued back up 3rd baseban who is backing up the injury plagued starting 3rd baseman?”
Marginal roster construction has often challenged the Yankees.
“Did you think I was tweaking the Yankees for bailing on Montero because of character issues or did you think I was tweaking people who think the Yankees bailed on Montero because of character issues? It was supposed to be the latter, but someone could have easily thought it was the former, so maybe it wasn’t such good craft on my part.”
The former. I can’t say I gave much more thought to what you’re actual position was on Montero, and I THINK I know you to be someone who will go for the joke regardless.
Though since we both knew I recognized least in broad sense the joke, not sure why we went through this exercise?
“Will you pay up before that happens?”
Yup.
Just out of curiosity – will everyone stop whining about Montero if the Yankees go out and sign one of Napoli, Molina or Miguel Montero next winter?
jerkface – I didn’t do that exactly, but I see some of what I did was clearly in haste. :p
Now I’m too curious to let it go, and want to know how to use this formula properly… so give me 15 minutes.
Rich in NJ February 17th, 2012 at 4:20 pm
“So Bill Hall is being brought to camp to back up the injury plagued back up 3rd baseban who is backing up the injury plagued starting 3rd baseman?”
Marginal roster construction has often challenged the Yankees.
——————
Like when?
It is a mistake to think Ibanez won’t face lefties. The Yanks will only carry 13 offensive players, there isn’t enough depth to replace Ibanez whenever a lefty is brought in. It will be worse when Jones starts, then Ibanez is brought in to face the righty reliever, and then the opposition brings in the lefty.
That’s the problem in modern baseball with the severe platoon player. When there were 14 or 15 offensive players it was different.
“So Bill Hall is being brought to camp to back up the injury plagued back up 3rd baseban who is backing up the injury plagued starting 3rd baseman?”
Who would you have liked for the 6th infielder and/or 25th man, Blake?
That doesn’t excuse you from acting the way you did, when you clearly expect respect and understanding in return.
—
Is this your first day on the internet? Expect respect? Who would expect such a thing?
I respect logic, intelligence, humor..
Sorry you got so butthurt about getting owned so hard.. If I need to grow up, maybe you need to grow a thicker skin?
“Like when?”
Randy Winn. Serial Chad Gaudin and Sergio Mitre.
Like it happens.
All the best AJ. Thanks for lightening things up in Yankee Land with the pies.
I guess the Yankees got what they could for him.
A hard thrower, and a Big baller.
That’s the problem in modern baseball with the severe platoon player. When there were 14 or 15 offensive players it was different.
–
I’m telling you, once some teams wises up and uses a more general bullpen and fills their bench with hitting specialists you’ll see some managers made to look really silly when they bring in ultra-specific pitchers only to get countered by some schmo that can mash.
Rich in NJ February 17th, 2012 at 4:26 pm
“Like when?”
Randy Winn. Serial Chad Gaudin and Sergio Mitre.
Like it happens.
—————————
Yes but it has never posed a problem for the Yankees. When those players fail the Yankees delete them.
“Just out of curiosity – will everyone stop whining about Montero if the Yankees go out and sign one of Napoli, Molina or Miguel Montero next winter?”
I’m not whining about Montero and I’m still not sure I want to sign any of those guys.
Besides – there’s nothing that even suggests Hall makes the club.
As I see it (assuming Chavez signs) the bench is likely: Chavez, Jones, Cervelli, Nunez – same as last year.
When Chavez gets hurt – Laird replaces him.
“Yes but it has never posed a problem for the Yankees. When those players fail the Yankees delete them.”
That’s the benefit of a very large payroll. It does not, however, negate that they have been poor at marginal roster construction.
More:
Jonathan Albaladejo, Brett Tomko, Jose Veras, Angel Berroa
The Yanks should stick with Martin until Gary Sanchez shows up.
“The Yanks should stick with Martin until Gary Sanchez shows up.”
What are you willing to pay until then?
Wave Your Hat February 17th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
That’s the problem in modern baseball with the severe platoon player. When there were 14 or 15 offensive players it was different.
——————-
’tis a sadly cyclical thing this baseball – more offensive players meant a manager could pinch hit when a platoon split was in his favor, so other managers started to make it harder by adding more relievers, that thus shortens the bench.
Someday it will go back the other way and we will bemoan the loss of the LOOGY.
Wave Your Hat February 17th, 2012 at 4:30 pm
The Yanks should stick with Martin until Gary Sanchez shows up.
—————-
And if Gary Sanchez never shows up?
“When Chavez gets hurt – Laird replaces him.”
Since Chavez has posted an OPS of .610 and .676 in consecutive years, why not cut out the middleman and go straight to Laird. Put the salary saved towards Damon.
Romine is going to get a chance to fail, as he should.
Rich in NJ February 17th, 2012 at 4:30 pm
“Yes but it has never posed a problem for the Yankees. When those players fail the Yankees delete them.”
That’s the benefit of a very large payroll. It does not, however, negate that they have been poor at marginal roster construction.
More:
Jonathan Albaladejo, Brett Tomko, Jose Veras, Angel Berroa
——————–
Again – bit players in bit roles.
I think you will find that the 24th and 25th man on most rosters are no better.
“Though since we both knew I recognized least in broad sense the joke, not sure why we went through this exercise?”
Because you mentioned disagreeing with my premise and I was, as you might say, GENUINELY curious what you thought the premise was. I’m sorry to anyone else who read it all, though.
“Yup.”
That’s good, but will you commit to paying up before a specific calendar date rather than the nebulous before-you-decide-to-stop-participating-in-this-comment-section?
“And if Gary Sanchez never shows up?”
You gotta take chances in this life, Chip.
Seriously, I don’t think signing the guys you mentioned is consistent with the Yank 2014 payroll goal.
“Romine is going to get a chance to fail, as he should.”
That is what I am hoping for. 2012 is a big year for Romine.
Wave Your Hat February 17th, 2012 at 4:32 pm
“When Chavez gets hurt – Laird replaces him.”
Since Chavez has posted an OPS of .610 and .676 in consecutive years, why not cut out the middleman and go straight to Laird. Put the salary saved towards Damon.
—————–
I’m fine with everything you said except put the salary towards Damon.
patrick- got so butthurt about getting owned
OK Child, I see we aren’t getting anywhere with this. When you grow up you’ll understand, hopefully it’ll happen before you go senile.
Wave Your Hat February 17th, 2012 at 4:33 pm
“And if Gary Sanchez never shows up?”
You gotta take chances in this life, Chip.
Seriously, I don’t think signing the guys you mentioned is consistent with the Yank 2014 payroll goal.
——————
Probably not.
But I will put the three of them along with David Wright and Delmon Young in my bag of “Guys the Yankees should go after in 2012/2013″
“I’m fine with everything you said except put the salary towards Damon.”
I thought you liked Damon.
“Seriously, I don’t think signing the guys you mentioned is consistent with the Yank 2014 payroll goal.”
Neither do I, unless circumstances makes them to think otherwise.
People get caught up in starting lineups with basketball.
The most important lineup is who is on the floor the final 5 minutes.
ID
if you have excel you can use the WAR calc here: http://home.comcast.net/~briankaat/statsite.html
“Again – bit players in bit roles.
I think you will find that the 24th and 25th man on most rosters are no better.”
See Chip, you will probably disagree, but this is one more thing farm systems can do, and cheaply as well, leaving more money for important players.
For anyone who even slightly follows boxing Chisora slapped Klitschko at their weigh in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63SDXMfPAzI
It’s a pretty funny video.
Slapped him hard as hell.
Unfortunately for heavy-weight boxing this vid will be better than the fight.
jerkface – Shouldn’t the number of PA you are dealing with change from like 105 instead of 700 too?
Wave Your Hat February 17th, 2012 at 4:36 pm
“I’m fine with everything you said except put the salary towards Damon.”
I thought you liked Damon.
—————–
Nope.
I’m firmly entrenched in the opinion of passing on Damon, Matsui, Ibanez and Vlad and instead working out a deal whereby the Yankees get Carlos Lee and the Astros get Raf Soriano and cash or a prospect.
“The most important lineup is who is on the floor the final 5 minutes.”
Chandler
Amare
Melo
Smith
Lin
“It does not, however, negate that they have been poor at marginal roster construction.”
“Poor” is by nature, a relative, comparative term. This is especially significant in context of competitive sports leagues with a relatively finite (ish) talent pool.
By what basis are you comparing the Yanks marginal roster construction with the rest of the league and coming out with a “poor” grade?
Any?
OK Child, I see we aren’t getting anywhere with this. When you grow up you’ll understand, hopefully it’ll happen before you go senile.
—
God you are easy
Rich in NJ February 17th, 2012 at 4:37 pm
“Again – bit players in bit roles.
I think you will find that the 24th and 25th man on most rosters are no better.”
See Chip, you will probably disagree, but this is one more thing farm systems can do, and cheaply as well, leaving more money for important players.
—————
Well yes, but to the Yankees the guys you mention were pocket change – a minor league deal that was worth $900k for Gaudin or Berroa or Cody Ransom, $2 mil for Winn – heck Albaladejo did come through the minors…
None of them ever prevented the Yankees from bringing in someone better when that player became available. Nor will Bill Hall or Russ Branyan or Chavez or Ibanez if they are signed…
Patrick February 17th, 2012 at 4:40 pm
OK Child, I see we aren’t getting anywhere with this. When you grow up you’ll understand, hopefully it’ll happen before you go senile.
—
God you are easy
———–
So’s your wife.
Just kidding – I couldn’t resist with the way you people are behaving.
No offense intended.
“I’m firmly entrenched in the opinion of passing on Damon, Matsui, Ibanez and Vlad and instead working out a deal whereby the Yankees get Carlos Lee and the Astros get Raf Soriano and cash or a prospect.”
Why would the last place Astros want with Soriano? Horrible teams don’t need closers even ones that take the place of Carlos Lee for one season when he might accept his option for 2013.
Rich in NJ February 17th, 2012 at 4:39 pm
“The most important lineup is who is on the floor the final 5 minutes.”
Chandler
Amare
Melo
Smith
Lin
——————————–
In some cases that might be but I would think that in many late close games the Knicks would go with the defense of Shumpert or Fields over the offense of JR.
Chandler
Amare
Melo
Smith
Lin
——————-
That’s what I’m thinking.
Fields concerns in crunch time because of his poor 3PT and free throw shooting this year.
jerkface – Shouldn’t the number of PA you are dealing with change from like 105 instead of 700 too?
–
Yes, in the excel you can put the number of PA
“The most important lineup is who is on the floor the final 5 minutes.”
Shumpert to stop the opposing team’s best scoring guard
Lin to play-make/shoot
Melo to draw the defense his side and for his ISO game
Chandler for his D/rebounding
Jeffries for his defense
Don’t need Smith chucking up 3s with 15 seconds on the clock, Amare letting players blow by him and bricking big shots, etc.
Win with defense and slowing the game down in the final 5. Lin/Melo can handle the scoring load. Melo if we need an iso/get to the stripe, Lin to be a playmaker, shoot, penetrate.
So’s your wife.
Just kidding – I couldn’t resist with the way you people are behaving.
No offense intended.
—
See there you go Chip! I don’t have a wife but that wouldn’t offend me if I did
None of the catchers mentioned will come cheaply. I don’t know how they will so significantly reduce payroll by 2014 without young regulars coming up to pay $10M/year for their catcher. Romine would be a cheap option if he can hit more.
LGY February 17th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
Chandler
Amare
Melo
Smith
Lin
??????-
That?s what I?m thinking.
Fields concerns in crunch time because of his poor 3PT and free throw shooting this year.
———————————————————————————–
Shump is like a glove on Defense, especially when the Knicks play the Miami Heat in the playoffs. Shump is gonna be all over DWade.
Amare will never be on the bench in crunch time. That’s nuts.
Crawdaddy February 17th, 2012 at 4:42 pm
“I’m firmly entrenched in the opinion of passing on Damon, Matsui, Ibanez and Vlad and instead working out a deal whereby the Yankees get Carlos Lee and the Astros get Raf Soriano and cash or a prospect.”
Why would the last place Astros want with Soriano? Horrible teams don’t need closers even ones that take the place of Carlos Lee for one season when he might accept his option for 2013.
—————–
Why would the second to last place Pirates want Burnett?
Two things here:
1. Soriano is due at most $22 mil over the next two years, Lee is due $18 for one – Yankees can pick up the difference and make it revenue neutral.
2. Astros can spin Soriano to a good team that does need a closer as the season moves along.
“I’m firmly entrenched in the opinion of passing on Damon, Matsui, Ibanez and Vlad and instead working out a deal whereby the Yankees get Carlos Lee and the Astros get Raf Soriano and cash or a prospect.”
I told you yesterday that wasn’t going to happen.
You have to pay better attention!
LGY February 17th, 2012 at 4:46 pm
Amare will never be on the bench in crunch time. That’s nuts.
——————-
I am so glad no one here will get any closer to managing a team than on a video game.
“Why would the second to last place Pirates want Burnett?
Two things here:
1. Soriano is due at most $22 mil over the next two years, Lee is due $18 for one – Yankees can pick up the difference and make it revenue neutral.
2. Astros can spin Soriano to a good team that does need a closer as the season moves along.”
Because Burnett can give the Pirates 200 innings while Soriano with his limited save opportunities does little to change the Astros fortunes.
Also, at least with Lee, they’re one and done while standing a good chance to get rid of him mid-season if need be.
jerkface – Then I come up with…
( wOBA - league average OBP ) / 1.15 * PA per month / 10.5 = WAR
june 0.256 0.324 1.15 105 10.5 -0.591304348
july 0.373 0.329 1.15 105 10.5 0.382608696
aug 0.352 0.335 1.15 105 10.5 0.147826087
sept/oct 0.301 0.333 1.15 105 10.5 -0.27826087
-0.3 WAR for the 4 months. He doesn’t get the .5 positional adjustment because his defense runs are not being counted when we look at it like this.
/shrug.
Still a lot of work for his defense/baserunning to make up to reach. He had a .465 wOBA in April, a large chunk of his batting for the season.
This formula will come in handy in the future, at least that came out of the conversation today :/
Wave Your Hat February 17th, 2012 at 4:48 pm
“I’m firmly entrenched in the opinion of passing on Damon, Matsui, Ibanez and Vlad and instead working out a deal whereby the Yankees get Carlos Lee and the Astros get Raf Soriano and cash or a prospect.”
I told you yesterday that wasn’t going to happen.
You have to pay better attention!
———————-
L-E-E!
It worked for the others with Kuroda – it will for me too.
I don’t think Romine will hit enough to be the catcher of the future for the Yankees.
Craw -
The Astros would be able to find a landing spot for Soriano. Texas, the Angels, Boston – they’re all going to need closers at some point this season.
Ditch Ibanez, wait out Damon’s silly salary demands and sign him in a few weeks. If Branyan is who we get stuck with at DH so be it
“Well yes, but to the Yankees the guys you mention were pocket change”
Which may also determine who is the LH DH, so…
patrick – I’m not offended patrick, don’t make that mistake. I’m disappointed because I thought you were better than the dregs that come here and troll and harass people. Turns out I was wrong about that too.
I don’t want to get my hopes up, but damn, this new Knicks squad is so damn explosive.
Last year, even after the Melo trade, you knew the team still had depth problems, didn’t have any interior presence, etc. That team was scary because of the two superstars but they still had holes.
This squad? Loaded.
Turns out I was wrong about that too.
—
Just add it to the list
“The Astros would be able to find a landing spot for Soriano. Texas, the Angels, Boston – they’re all going to need closers at some point this season.”
Let me cut this short. I don’t see the Astros making this deal for the reasons I gave and I don’t agree that those three teams will need a closer at some point this season.
Patrick February 17th, 2012 at 4:51 pm
Ditch Ibanez, wait out Damon’s silly salary demands and sign him in a few weeks. If Branyan is who we get stuck with at DH so be it
——————
Quite honestly I have no problem going into spring training and having an open competition between Jorge Vazquez, Andruw Jones, Justin Maxwell and Russ Branyan for the primary DH spot. If they all suck through a straw – well it’s not like Matsui, Damon, Vlad and Ibanez are going anywhere…
Of course it depends on matchups but the more I think about it your 5 best in general at the end of a close game are:
Lin
Shumpert
Carmelo
Amare
Chandler
Lin to facilitate, Carmelo and Amare for offense, and Shumpert and Chandler for defense.
Again, it matters who you the other team has on the court.
Crawdaddy February 17th, 2012 at 4:52 pm
“The Astros would be able to find a landing spot for Soriano. Texas, the Angels, Boston – they’re all going to need closers at some point this season.”
Let me cut this short. I don’t see the Astros making this deal for the reasons I gave and I don’t agree that those three teams will need a closer at some point this season.
—————
Okie dokie.
patrick – It’s a short list, the bottom is right here near the top.
“The Astros would be able to find a landing spot for Soriano. ”
I don’t think so, not at his price. In 2013 it will be $14M. The Astros will never take back a guy like Soriano unless the Yanks eat his contract down to market, which the Yanks will never do.
Smith has an ego. They’re going to have to placate him if possible.
patrick – It’s a short list, the bottom is right here near the top.
—
If that’s what you tell yourself to be happy, who am I to dispel that illusion?
Anyways back to conversations that have meaning – Chip, I still think the Yankees need help at DH and none of the guys you mention are going to be good enough. DH was the weakest spot on the roster last year…
Rich in NJ February 17th, 2012 at 4:54 pm
Smith has an ego. They’re going to have to placate him if possible.
—————–
Smith just signed for the vet minimum – D’Antoni will have no problem sitting him if he has to, especially not with his job on the line.
“Smith has an ego. They’re going to have to placate him if possible.”
Then he better play well because for the money they signed him to, placating him shouldn’t be high on D’toni’s to do list.
I don’t get the Damon hostility. He hit better than any other available guy last year. He hits righties and lefties.
I’d rather have Jim Thome, but he’s not available.
“Smith just signed for the vet minimum – D’Antoni will have no problem sitting him if he has to, especially not with his job on the line.”
Well, we agree about that.
Chip
The vet minimum is misleading at this point in the season, Chip. The guy had other choices and he is known to be a um, strong personality.
And besides, he fits D’Antoni’s system perfectly because his outside shooting optimizes spacing.
DH was the weakest spot on the roster last year
If given the option of having 1 weakest spot somewhere between your 5 rotation spots and your 9 lineup spots, DH is the place of least importance.
Still a lot of work for his defense/baserunning to make up to reach. He had a .465 wOBA in April, a large chunk of his batting for the season.
–
And Melky had a .418 wOBA in April. Melky was worth less than Cameron. On the year Cam had 11.4 defense and 9 oWAR. Melky was -1 and 1.5. He still hit better than Melky in the 2nd half. And we know he defended better on the year. Wins above 90 escalate in cost, so 5 million for Cameron to hit and field better seems like a pretty sweet deal.
I don’t get the Damon hostility. He hit better than any other available guy last year. He hits righties and lefties.
—
Truth
And you have to think hitting at Yankee stadium will help him a bit.
If given the option of having 1 weakest spot somewhere between your 5 rotation spots and your 9 lineup spots, DH is the place of least importance.
—-
Ok… so what’s your point? Ibanez is not going to cut it..
Wave Your Hat February 17th, 2012 at 4:57 pm
I don’t get the Damon hostility. He hit better than any other available guy last year. He hits righties and lefties.
I’d rather have Jim Thome, but he’s not available.
————–
Jason Giambi.
Rockies have Helton, they have Casey Blake for when Helton’s out. Giambi can’t run, he can’t field, but the man can still hit and get on base.
Even beyond offense, I’d rather Damon or Vlad because at least with them you know they can’t play the field. Ibanez seems to be fooling people.
“I don’t get the Damon hostility. He hit better than any other available guy last year. He hits righties and lefties.”
What hostility? There seems to be more of that from the Damon supporters.
Ibanez is clearly the worst option available, which means he’s the Yanks choice.
Later. Painter free for the weekend!
jerkface – Melky was playing pretty good defense at the time and to that point in the season was hitting well…
Can’t it be the move was deemed “unnecessary” not so much “if it were only cheaper”…? As in “I’m not paying $5mil for that marginal of an improvement”? That’s still different than “not being able to afford” something something if they really wanted or needed it.
Chip,
I’m not sure about the Giambino, he was pretty awful in 2009 and 2010. He was good last year but it was over 152 plate appearances, not all that telling IMO
“Jason Giambi.
Rockies have Helton, they have Casey Blake for when Helton’s out. Giambi can’t run, he can’t field, but the man can still hit and get on base.”
The Rockies aren’t going to trade Giambi. They just re-signed him, and they love him there.
Leon Rose needs to sit Smith down and tell him he can increase his asking price next year more by focusing more on a higher shooting % than a scoring avg.
Melky was playing pretty good defense at the time and to that point in the season was hitting well…
Can’t it be the move was deemed “unnecessary” not so much “if it were only cheaper”…? As in “I’m not paying $5mil for that marginal of an improvement”? That’s still different than “not being able to afford” something something if they really wanted or needed it.
–
Unnecessary contradicts Cashman attempting the move and the reason for Hal vetoing it. Which is in writing, from one of the pretty good beat writers that has access. How would Hal know what is unnecessary or not? Cashman thought he was necessary enough to trade for. Do you think Cashman routinely makes unnecessary trades? If Hal would make the trade at a price point below 5 million, then yea money is a factor and Cashman may be blocked from making a similar move in the future.
The Rockies aren’t going to trade Giambi. They just re-signed him, and they love him there.
–
it was a mutual option they did, so obviously Giambi likes it there as well
I think a team like the Yankees can survive with almost anyone hitting in the DH spot, because those other 13 spots are better than any team in baseball right now. Obvious fan bias… but what team has a better starting 5 and starting 8 fielders?
The difference between Damon/Ibanez/whoever is going to be ridiculously negligible anyway.
None of them are a good solution, and none of them should be the deciding factor in making the playoffs or not…
Either bring back Damon for the nostalgia or just bring up some kiddies, either way Cashman will be working the trade market all season looking for a better option.
what team has a better starting 5 and starting 8 fielders?
—
Arguably the Rangers
jerkface – Cashman could have easily said “hey i have this marginal upgrade in place, do you want to do this” and he said “Marginal? Nah… not for $5mil”… Who knows if Cashman even pushed back saying “Hey we really need to do this”… no one.
Arguably the Rangers
You could try making that argument but I don’t know how successful you’d be. They are also a team without a permanent DH.
Even though he’s a good clubhouse guy it was time for Burnett to leave and a good move by the Yankees.
The prospects they received are just names, if one or both of them ever makes the big club it’s a bonus
As for who they sign, why not just wait until it happens, then you can have all of spring training plus the early part of the regular season to bash any or all of them just like guys like Ransom, Winn, etc, etc, etc. At the end of the day it won’t matter much, whoever they sign, if they don’t perform, won’t be around for the postseason.
Why waste good bashing posts on the offseason when you can complain nonstop during the time when more people are reading the blog?
Cashman could have easily said “hey i have this marginal upgrade in place, do you want to do this” and he said “Marginal? Nah… not for $5mil”… Who knows if Cashman even pushed back saying “Hey we really need to do this”… no one.
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Now we’re getting into fantasy territory where we can just fall back to the simplest answer. Hal didn’t want to spend 5 million. And sure enough they didn’t. They also attempted to get Cameron in the offseason before and thought about it again in the offseason after, so I think Cashman probably liked him more than marginally.
jerkface – None of that proves that if Cashman came to him with a deal for $5 millions saying “we absolutely need this or we can’t make the playoffs”… that Hal would turn it down because he didn’t want to spend $5mil.
All it proves is he didn’t want to spend $5mil on Mike Cameron, in that particular situation, considering… whatever exactly it was he was considering at the time.
I can’t imagine Cashman came to him all “sky is falling” like that with a team as solid as the 2009 team was in June. They were dead even with the RedSox at the time and blowing away the WC competition IIRC.
I like the Rangers lineup better, I like the Yankees bullpen better…..and right now Id give the starting pitching edge to the Yanks because they have Sabathia and I think they are more.proven as a staff.
At the end of the day it won’t matter much, whoever they sign, if they don’t perform, won’t be around for the postseason.
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Sounds like they should sign the player with the highest chance of performing?
What is up fellas!!
“For once, somebody is not in the best shape of his life. Pineda checked in at 6-foot-7 and 260 pounds last season, so it shouldn’t be a huge challenge to get into game-shape prior to Opening Day. The 23-year-old posted a 3.74 ERA and 173/55 K/BB ratio over 171 innings as a rookie last year with the Mariners and is expected to slot behind CC Sabathia in the Yankees’ rotation this season.”
Should we be worried or can he get the C.C. immunity?
I can’t imagine Cashman came to him all “sky is falling” like that with a team as solid as the 2009 team was in June. They were dead even with the RedSox at the time and blowing away the WC competition IIRC.
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When do you think we would be in a sky is falling situation? The Yankees are good, they could be winning tons of games despite having weaknesses on the roster come the deadline. What if nothing is available but marginal upgrades? How can Cashman sell Hal on them? This is the point, the moves don’t have to be playoff threatening moves. We know that Hal will veto deals. Why bother wasting the 2 million on guys that won’t hang around when you could use that at the deadline to obtain an upgrade then? Even if its marginal the cost of marginal wins is huge in the arena the yankees play in.
If they need to make a huge trade to make the playoffs they’d probably be screwed.
It’s no more of a fantasy than quickly assuming it was simply because of $5mil to a multi-billion dollar franchise.
I know they said it was because Hal turned it down. If he says “Cash, are we good enough to make it without this move” and Cashman says yes… Hal turning it down is not crazy at all, even if the reason he gives is “money”.
Should we be worried or can he get the C.C. immunity?
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something something montero something something
“For once, somebody is not in the best shape of his life. Pineda checked in at 6-foot-7 and 260 pounds last season,
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What? No one sending him to API?
jerkface – Before we go too far let’s remember we are in agreement that they shouldn’t spend money on any of these scrubs.
I just don’t believe if they spent $2mil on one now it would stop them from replacing the player if that player were completely failing come the trade deadline.
No one was “failing” in the Cameron situation, so I do not feel that it applies.
It’s no more of a fantasy than quickly assuming it was simply because of $5mil to a multi-billion dollar franchise.
I know they said it was because Hal turned it down. If he says “Cash, are we good enough to make it without this move” and Cashman says yes… Hal turning it down is not crazy at all, even if the reason he gives is “money”.
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Ok but Cashman could answer Yes to like almost every trade he makes if posed that question by Hal. You cannot really use the $5 million is chump change for the Yankees when we know they have a soft budget, they don’t sign everyone, they made moves this offseason that specifically question it, and are said to be gearing up for spending less.
5 million obviously meant something to Hal.
You could try making that argument but I don’t know how successful you’d be. They are also a team without a permanent DH.
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They might not have what you would consider a full-time DH but they have Michael Young sitting on the bench who can play spot time at any infield spot and DH whenever.
Sabathia, Kuroda, Pineda, Nova, Hughes or Garcia
vs
Darvish, Feliz, Harrison, Holland, Lewis
Advantage Yankees but it’s not that far off.
Teixeira, Cano, Jeter, Rodriguez, Martin, Swisher, Granderson Gardner
vs
Moreland, Kinsler, Andrus, Beltre, Napoli, Cruz, Hamilton, Murphy
Advantage Yankees at 2B and 1B. Advantage Rangers at SS, 3B, RF, C. Slight advantage Yankees at CF, although we could very easily see Granderson and Hamilton both go back to their 2010 numbers. Advantage Yankees in LF. It’s close but I take the Rangers lineup over the Yankees.
Pineda showed up 20 lbs over his 2011 weight. 280
Pineda showed up 20 lbs over his 2011 weight. 280
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Jesus
5 million obviously meant something to Hal.
Yes it meant Mike Cameron is not good enough for this money you are asking for. It’s probably a tough sell to ownership when you don’t really have anyone flailing around embarassing themselves on the field.
Whether he was right or not about Cameron’s value is irrelevant.
If They spend $4mil on Damon right now, which I believe they will end up doing… and he completely sucks… do you think they will pass up on replacing him mid-season because of that $4mil? This is not Posada we are talking about here… this is a non-franchise FA scrub.
I don’t really think ownership does their own analysis of trades before approving it. That’s why you hire Cashman, to make the right calls with personnel given a set budget. Cashman thought Cameron was an upgrade worth $5 million and asked for the flexibility to make the move and Hal said no due to the money involved. Do you really think he sat down and calculated the WAR like you and Jerkface?
patrick – I would have 3B as more of a wash. Beltre playing over his head, A-Rod hopefully getting healthy…
Overall we’re still coming up with the Yankees are a better team. The 5 rotation spots are huge, and I would peg the Yankees with an advantage or a wash in almost every single one.
do you think they will pass up on replacing him mid-season because of that $4mil?
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Possibly, yes. If they can’t get a deal where salary goes the other way or the other team sends cash. If Damon sucks its not going to tank their Playoff chances probably, so how would Cash sell Hal a trade? We just traded AJ Burnett to get rid of him and free up money. Arguing that the Yankees will spend whatever it takes doesn’t have solid footing. They will spend up to a point.
And the Yankees likely will not need to make any ‘season saving’ trades, so Cash aint selling Hal the ‘we need him to make the playoff’ bridge. Whenever the deadline comes around we’re usually talking about who to add for the stretch run / playoffs. Thats why they traded for Hinske & Hairston Jr. Playoff games. Why not Cameron for the playoffs? Because he cost too much.
like I said, it may not have just been Hal… 2009 they were still very much a “brain trust” of decision making. It wasn’t hands off cashman yet.
sergio mitre still on the roster? i
like I said, it may not have just been Hal… 2009 they were still very much a “brain trust” of decision making. It wasn’t hands off cashman yet.
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Who is the brain trust? Cash has had autonomy for quite a bit. You’ll have to refresh me on Cashman vs the brain trust circa 2009.
Jerkface February 17th, 2012 at 5:19 pm
At the end of the day it won’t matter much, whoever they sign, if they don’t perform, won’t be around for the postseason.
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Sounds like they should sign the player with the highest chance of performing?
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It’s not my money, but if it was, I wouldn’t sign anyone to a major league contract and let all of the ones in camp on minor league contracts fight it out for the last couple of spots. That provides maximum flexibility to pick up an expiring contract at the trade deadline to push them over the top during the playoffs. But I’m not going to spend the next month discussing it, the guy who occupies the last or next to last seat on the bench isn’t going to make the difference between a team in the playoffs and one that isn’t.
like I said, it may not have just been Hal… 2009 they were still very much a “brain trust” of decision making. It wasn’t hands off cashman yet.
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Cashman is the baseball guy. Him and his team make the baseball decisions but Hal has to approve the money side of the deals he makes.
Cash made a deal with the Brewers and brought it to Hal for final approval. Hal nixed it because of the money involved.
Why is this so complicated?
im still amazed that cash got someone to pay burnett $13M. i won’t be counting on these guys contributing anything much for the Yankees.
jerkface – We’ve gone 8 miles from where this started. Let’s do this in the interest of wrapping things up, I have to go home.
Cameron was probably barely worth the $5mil for that second half over what they got from Melky.
Hal probably nixed the deal because he didn’t want to spend $5mil for whatever reason.
Cameron was not a huge pressing need for the Yankees at the time.
Has has shown fiscal restraint in the past, but not in the face of possibly missing the playoffs.
Whoever the Yankees sign to be the DH before ST starts will probably be a mistake.
They will still make the playoffs this year, regardless.
I’ll try to pick better battles tomorrow, today was exhausting.
It’s not my money, but if it was, I wouldn’t sign anyone to a major league contract and let all of the ones in camp on minor league contracts fight it out for the last couple of spots.
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This is a good idea. But it sounds like they’re signing the DH to a major league deal.
Has has shown fiscal restraint in the past, but not in the face of possibly missing the playoffs.
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When have they been in danger of missing the playoffs?
I think if the Yanks give branyan a chance to play he can be just as productive as ibanez at dh spot. the point is i think branyan still have something left in the tank but need some consistent ab to prove it. to MG thoughts along that line.
When have they been in danger of missing the playoffs?
Exactly. If faced with this possibility come the trade deadline, the “budget” may truly become fiction.
Exactly. If faced with this possibility come the trade deadline, the “budget” may truly become fiction.
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OK, I’ll include an exception for dire emergency, but thats not really what is being discussed. The money they spend now could stop them from being able to make a normal trade that they try to make every year, where they are in contention for a playoff spot. The kind of marginal upgrades that playoff teams make as they march towards the WS.
just a guess… i think the Yanks has a ‘soft’ budget. I think the Yanks will play in that confine if the team is already playoff bound. I do think the budget is flexible on a short term rental if the team needs or believe it needs a particular player or players to help them push over the hump into a playoff. i then i believe most astute business will invest additional money to help salvage rather large sum already invested the venture. in yankees case, 200 milish.
in short, i think budget goes out the window if the yanks r in danger of missing the playoff and the acquisition piece is short term and reasonable.
Yea Cashmoney I see that from your and ID’s pov, a dire emergency could upend the rules midseason (assuming it doesnt brush up against 2014), but those are not the moves the Yankees have made the past few seasons. We’re not really talking about save the season moves, but just ‘better position for the WS’
Jerkface February 17th, 2012 at 5:26 pm
Pineda showed up 20 lbs over his 2011 weight. 280
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Joba has company
We’re not really talking about save the season moves, but just ‘better position for the WS
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JF, agree. we saying the same thing. I was not talking about moves in the recent past, but rather, the state of yankees budget as of 2012. Just my opinion obviously.
http://espn.go.com/new-york/ml.....ric-chavez