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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Monday morning notes: Ibanez on his way

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 20, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Still nothing official from the Yankees, but it’s hardly a surprise that their deal with Raul Ibanez is done. Wouldn’t be a surprise to see an official announcement later today.

Of course, Ibanez isn’t here just yet. There’s still an empty locker in the back of the spring training clubhouse where I assume Ibanez will eventually have a jersey.

Today is the first official workout for pitchers and catchers, and 13 guys will be throwing bullpens later this morning. Mariano Rivera is here. I can echo some previous statements that Phil Hughes seems to be in good shape, Michael Pineda is a huge guy and Francisco Cervelli is as friendly as ever.

A few minor notes from this morning…

• David Adams and Justin Maxwell have already settled into the clubhouse. They’re both coming off injuries, so they’ve reported for early batting practice. Didn’t have a chance to talk to Adams this morning, but Maxwell said he’s been in Tampa since mid-January and feels fully recovered from a torn labrum suffered while slamming into the wall in Indianapolis last season. He’s a toolsy outfielder with some power and speed, and he’s trying to win a spot on the big league bench.

• A former elite prospect coming back from a series of hand issues, Adam Miller is an interesting off-the-radar guy in the spring clubhouse. After essentially missing three seasons through a series of setbacks — no elbow or shoulder surgeries, just his hand –Miller got back on the field last season and said he started showing more velocity and command in his last few outings. He said he feels strong, just really wants to get some innings and get the feel back. He’s obviously a longshot to make the team out of camp, but he’s a good guy to keep an eye on. If he’s healthy, there’s a lot of talent in that arm.

• Cervelli said his concussion symptoms were completely gone by mid-November. He’s been in Tampa for about a week and said he feels good. As for taking Jorge Posada’s locker, Cervelli just laughed and said he’ll have to give Posada a call to let him know. “It’s an honor,” Cervelli said.

• Yesterday there was an empty locker between Alex Rodriguez and Robinson Cano. Today that locker was stocked and assigned to Zoilo Almonte. Not bad company for a guy just added to the 40-man.

• A guy who I assume was Clay Rapada was moving into a locker this morning. He’s been assigned No. 39.

• Today’s bullpens:

Group 1
Phil Hughes (to Jose Gil)
Ivan Nova (to Austin Romine)
Michael Pineda (to Russell Martin)
Dave Robertson (to Gustavo Molina)
CC Sabathia (to Francisco Cervelli)

Group 2
Freddy Garcia (to J.R. Murphy)
Hiroki Kuroda (to Cervelli)
Boone Logan (to Kyle Higashioka)
Cory Wade (to Gary Sanchez)

Group 3
Manny Banuelos (to Martin)
Dellin Betances (to Higashioka)
Cesar Cabral (to Molina)
D.J. Mitchell (to Gil)

• Today’s hitting groups:

Group 1
David Adams and Justin Maxwell

Group 2
Francisco Cervelli, Russell Martin, Gustavo Molina, Austin Romine

Group 3
Jose Gil, Kyle Higashioka, J.R. Murphy, Gary Sanchez

Comments

comments

 

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206 Responses to “Monday morning notes: Ibanez on his way”

  1. Yankee Trader February 20th, 2012 at 9:34 am

    Thanks Chad for the update.

    With the addition of Ibanez the 40 man roster will be filled.

  2. Baseball Mogul February 20th, 2012 at 9:36 am

    Rosenthal says plate appearance incentives can bring Ibanez total to $4M.

  3. blake February 20th, 2012 at 9:39 am

    “I think it’s about money and a misguided view of Ibanez’ defense.”

    Im rationalizing …..I hope those aren’t the reasons.

  4. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Similar to the way you should judge an NBA team by who finishes rather than who starts, I prefer to look at the DH position in terms of who will man the position after the trading deadline.

  5. blake February 20th, 2012 at 9:43 am

    In MLBTR’s write up for the Ibanez signing….they begin describing him by saying…..”never known for his defense”.

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com

  6. MaineYankee February 20th, 2012 at 9:44 am

    blake

    Don’t you think how Damon left 2yrs ago has some influence on the Yankees desire to bring him back?

  7. blake February 20th, 2012 at 9:45 am

    I think Cashman will probably be in discussions all season about young hitters…..whether he lands one or not I have no idea. If not…..Ethier would be a perfect trade deadline target assuming the Dodgers make him available……

  8. MaineYankee February 20th, 2012 at 9:47 am

    Cashman has said he wasn’t going to bring players in just for the Yankee money.

    If Damon had an offer with some other team would he be trying to come back?

  9. blake February 20th, 2012 at 9:47 am

    Maine,

    Nah…..I really doubt it does other than it looks like he did the same this year and priced himself out of the role…..I dont think it causes hard feelings…..I just think Johnny wont play for what they offer.

  10. Wave Your Hat February 20th, 2012 at 9:47 am

    If you google for Ibanez’ fielding gifs you can find some very entertaining clips.

  11. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 9:47 am

    Come on, it’s about the money for everyone. We’re a capitalist society.

  12. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 9:49 am

    http://online.wsj.com/article/.....41868.html

    The Delivery Guy Who Saw Jeremy Lin Coming

  13. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 9:51 am

    So the Yankees are going to have two pitchers in the rotation who are being told to master a third pitch and while you are at it make sure you win .

    Is this the new Yankee way …. of developing young pitchers ?

    Scranton is the place to learn a third pitch

    they should send Hughes and Pineda there one at a time like they did with nova

    If it was a good thing to do with nova, why isn’t it a good thing to do with Pineda and hughes ?

  14. Benny Blanco February 20th, 2012 at 9:52 am

    People, stop acting like Ibanez will be an everyday OF.. he will play defense once in awhile.

  15. MaineYankee February 20th, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Rich

    Yes players want to get the most money they can.

    I recall Cashman saying he wasn’t going to be interested in players that were using the Yankees to get more from other teams as was the case in the past.

  16. Erin February 20th, 2012 at 9:53 am

    and Francisco Cervelli is as friendly as ever.

    ************

    Is Cervelli ever not in a good mood? ;)

  17. blake February 20th, 2012 at 9:53 am

    “So the Yankees are going to have two pitchers in the rotation who are being told total master a third pitch and while you are at it make sure you win .”

    Most all rotations have guys that are working on things…..

  18. Benny Blanco February 20th, 2012 at 9:55 am

    Can’t wait to hear martin’s impression of his first BP session with Pineda.

  19. blake February 20th, 2012 at 9:55 am

    “People, stop acting like Ibanez will be an everyday OF.. he will play defense once in awhile.”

    Just talking about how the Yanks say they chose Ibanez over Damon because of his defense….which as you point out shouldn’t have factored into the decision at all.

  20. blake February 20th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    Randy,

    I thought you liked rotations with guys who didn’t have any plus pitches like the Twins :)

  21. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    someone mentioned matt cain as a pitcher who learned secondary pitches on the job.

    in his first four years in the majors the giants did not win more than 75 games.

    if anyone thinks pineda learning a change up on the job with the yankees is similar to matt cain learning secondary pitches with the giants in his first four years they are not looking at how bad the giants were at that time .

    there was little pressure to win for cain.

    pineda has to win more than he loses or he will be demoted. that’s pressure totally different than cain had.

  22. Wave Your Hat February 20th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    Just when I think ibanez won’t play in the field, I remember Marcus Thames, which wasn’t so long ago.

  23. Crawdaddy February 20th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    “Ethier would be a perfect trade deadline target assuming the Dodgers make him available……”

    I don’t because of his upcoming free agency. He did try to do that with Lee, but probably felt a greater need for Lee that season. The offense would really have to struggle for him to give up valuable assets for Ethier.

  24. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    The point is that Ibanez should never play the field.

  25. Wave Your Hat February 20th, 2012 at 9:58 am

    I predict Pineda will win more than he loses.

  26. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 9:59 am

    I predict the Yankees will win more than they lose.

  27. blake February 20th, 2012 at 10:00 am

    “someone mentioned matt cain as a pitcher who learned secondary pitches on the job.”

    That was me….and the Giants won 75 games then because the rest of their team was terrible. Pineda will be the 4th starter this year and if healthy I bet he wins 15+ games.

  28. blake February 20th, 2012 at 10:02 am

    I don’t because of his upcoming free agency. He did try to do that with Lee, but probably felt a greater need for Lee that season. The offense would really have to struggle for him to give up valuable assets for Ethier”

    Would be a great rental depending on what you’d have to give up of course…..you wouldn’t have to give up as much as you would fir Cliff Lee.

  29. pat February 20th, 2012 at 10:03 am

    I predict if Pineda wins more than he loses, randy will find another issue to harp on.

  30. Bronx Jeers February 20th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    Welcome Raul Ibanez. I hope he finds great success in his new role here.

    That said, I also hope the Steins use the extra cash wisely. No more Supercuts for Hal and lets get Hank back to school so he can finally earn that Associates degree.

  31. MaineYankee February 20th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    So now if Pineda doesn’t do well the Yankees will only win 75 games.

    Okie Dokie.

  32. LGY February 20th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    Go Raul? :???:

  33. blake February 20th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    Sign Soler….

  34. BIG AL February 20th, 2012 at 10:05 am

    I believe Pineda will be a #4 SP, so the pressure will be less on him, and he will face other #4 SP, which should be to his, and the Yankees, advantage.

    It’s not like he has to start leaning a third picth, he was throwing a CU last year, and just needs to make it better.

    I feel Pineda will do just fine in NY.

  35. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 10:05 am

    “I predict if Pineda wins more than he loses, randy will find another issue to harp on.”

    i find people who use the word “harp” rather limited in their vocabulary and generally not very smart.

  36. LGY February 20th, 2012 at 10:05 am

    I’m sticking with my Ibanez is clutch theory to justify this until he proves me wrong.

  37. MaineYankee February 20th, 2012 at 10:05 am

    randy

    If they have a comedy club near where you got your fries maybe you ought to stop in. :D:

  38. Doc Iac February 20th, 2012 at 10:06 am

    pineda should not be the concern…

    the real concern is will garcia be as good as last yr or close?

    and will phil hughes get back to hamstring hughes, or his normal BP hughes

  39. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 10:08 am

    “I’m sticking with my Ibanez is clutch theory to justify this until he proves me wrong”

    Ibanez-inanity? ;)

  40. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 10:08 am

    Marcus Thames got 30 games in the OF. The Yankees will end up playing Ibanez in the field, even if they have an alternative, all in the name of resting someone that doesnt need it.

    Very disappointed with this signing, but Ibanez is here now. Hoping this move is made because they think it will be easy to cut him and trade for a replacement if necessary.

  41. EsquireMatt February 20th, 2012 at 10:09 am

    They picked Ibanez over Damon because of money, and they picked Ibanez over Matsui/Vlad because of defense.

    I personally would have picked Vlad. If nothing else, he cant hurt us if he is on our team. Andruw can play OF if one of the regulars need off. I know hes not left handed but he has good splits against RHP and still has power to the entire field.

  42. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 10:09 am

    “It’s not like he has to start leaning a third picth, he was throwing a CU last year, and just needs to make it better.”

    big al-

    check out matt cains pitch selection over his first four years with the giants while they were winning 70-75 games a year. you’ll notice a very different thng happening than what you’ll see with pineda.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/stats.....#pitchtype

  43. LGY February 20th, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Rich

    Thanks for posting that article. Good stuff.

  44. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 10:10 am

    pineda fangraphs pitch selection:
    http://www.fangraphs.com/stats.....#pitchtype

  45. jacksquat February 20th, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Ibanez makes up to 4 mil with plate appearances incentives. That’s Damon territory.

    I think they just don’t like that Johnny turned down their contract offer the last time he left. I hope Ibanez is better than last year.

  46. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 10:11 am

    Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1
    #Yankees liked Ibanez over Damon for few reasons: 1) Thought better v. RHP and job is LH DH vs. RHP. 2) Though bad fielder Ibanez has (cont)

    Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1
    played regularly in field, Damon hasn’t last 2 yrs, so if emergency cropped up not sure Damon could play regularly. 3) Yes, some (cont)

    Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1
    concern Damon so obsessed with 3K Hs that prioritizing in ABs more, less discipline, less team play. 4) Definitely could get Ibanez at $1.1M

    __

    I think Yankees are wrong on 1) -3). 4) is self-evident.

  47. blake February 20th, 2012 at 10:11 am

    Well here is hoping Ibanez can pop a few into the short porch……Id seriously give Jones a look at being the primary DH…..he looked really good at the end of last year and reports are he’s motivated to be a regular again…..bat speed had returned a bit and he wasn’t collapsing as badly on his back side…..he’s only 34.

  48. willwill February 20th, 2012 at 10:12 am

    Dragged my feet, was gonna go today to watch the first workout. It’s too late now :(

  49. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 10:12 am

    “i find people who use the word “harp” rather limited in their vocabulary and generally not very smart.”

    What about people who use the word “learn” in place of “improve”? Is that a sign of intelligence.

    As Blake continually points out, Pineda has a change-up, a circle-change in fact. He needs to improve upon it. To suggest young, high-upside young pitchers all come out of AAA fully-formed is ignorant of the very basics of baseball history.

    Pineda must tweak and refine his CU, something that can be done sometimes simply with an adjustment of the grip. Repetition is probably the key ingredient here. He must use it in order to get better using it.

    That is not “learning” Randy. It is not starting from scratch. You repeatedly use a word that does not mean what you think it means.

    Glass houses and all.

  50. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 10:14 am

    big al-

    pineda is being asked to get really much better at a pitch that by all accounts was really bad.

    when you have a pitch that’s bad. you really don’t have a pitch.

    pineda is being asked to master a pitch that he has that’s bad , and he’s being asked to win more than he loses and to have an era under 5.00.

    there’s no downside to sending hime to scranton to throw the pitch without having to care about winning at all.

    pineda is their fourth or fifth pitcher. why do they need him for april in new york?

  51. blake February 20th, 2012 at 10:14 am

    Those reasons Sherman listed are dumb…..but whatever.

    Randy,

    Look at pitch selections for Cain in his first season starting….he threw all fastballs…….let’s see what Pineda does this year.

  52. BIG AL February 20th, 2012 at 10:15 am

    randy l. -

    Have you ever watched Pineda pitch? I very well may be off base, but I feel your negativity towards Pineda has more to do with the fact Montero was traded for him, than his ability to do well as a SP.

  53. Erin February 20th, 2012 at 10:15 am

    LoHudYankees First official Yankees workout has begun on the back field. Just running and stretching right now, with a few bullpens to follow.

  54. blake February 20th, 2012 at 10:16 am

    “pineda is being asked to get really much better at a pitch that by all accounts was really bad.”

    Was the actual pitch really bad…..or did he just not know how to use it? Ill watch and see for myself this year…..

  55. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 10:17 am

    “the real concern is will garcia be as good as last yr or close?

    “and will phil hughes get back to hamstring hughes, or his normal BP hughes”

    I wouldn’t be concerned about it too much. Like almost all ML teams, Yankees haven’t had a good 5th starter in like, ever. The terms is essentially an oxymoron.

    AJ Burnett’s production the last 2 years is basically the over/under line, and consider, even then the Yankees have cruised into the postseason the last 2 years.

    The Yankees are a 95 win team even if you slot a 5+ ERA pitcher into the 5th slot.

  56. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 10:18 am

    Pineda’s change up was rated ahead of his slider pre-2011 season by scouts. He then surprised baseball by starting with the mariners out of spring and using a nasty slider.

  57. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 10:19 am

    Martin can play a big role in developing Hughes and Pineda if the is backed up by Rothschild and the manager. They need to give them permission to throw the change and live with the result.

  58. Erin February 20th, 2012 at 10:20 am

    BruceBeck4NY #Yankees have officially taken the field for 2012 in Tampa! Sunny Skies – high 60′s! http://lockerz.com/s/185600128

  59. blake February 20th, 2012 at 10:22 am

    Pineda threw more change ups his rookie year than Cain did…..he threw it 6.2% of the time last year. He just needs to get more confident with it and refine it…..its nit like he’s starting from scratch.

  60. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 10:24 am

    “Have you ever watched Pineda pitch? I very well may be off base, but I feel your negativity towards Pineda has more to do with the fact Montero was traded for him, than his ability to do well as a SP.”

    big al-

    i’m the one who’s opening my mind and looking at matt cain’s fangraphs stats as compared to pineda’s.

    you might want to do the same unless you just want to root for pineda to do well with little understanding of how he gets there.

    do you really think i’m not going to know pineda inside and out as time goes on?
    i’m simply saying now that he’s a yankee. i’d like to see them not rush him the way they did with hughes, kennedy, and joba.

    they are rushing him by making him learn and win at the same time. it should be one or the other.

  61. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 10:27 am

    If my Fangraphs memory serves, CC Sabathia essentially completely made over his secondary pitch use at the major league level, and remained effective (as effective Yanks will need Pineda to be) the entire time.

    The notion that it is better for ALL pitchers to refine pitches and pitch use at the AAA level is simply lacking in any nuance. It is a one-size fits all solution that may not apply to all players equally.

    I’m willing to acknowledge for sake of intellectual honesty that it MAY be better for Pineda, but I don’t know enough about Pineda to know that to be the case and I don’t think anyone else does here either.

    If nothing else, there is NO reason the issues needs to be decided on Day 1. Pineda has a month and a half to inform the Yankees on his make-up, his coachability, the state of his CU, before assessing the best path from him.

    Anyone deciding from their living room what’s best for Michael Pineda is simply full of themselves.

  62. EsquireMatt February 20th, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Rich,

    In 2011, Ibanez had a .747 OPS v RHP, Damon had .715. Not a huge difference but add in the $$ and it makes sense.

    Granted Damon does hit better v. LHP than Ibanez, but if it is a true platoon with Andruw, it doesn’t make much difference. I really think the big kicker here was $$.

  63. Doc Iac February 20th, 2012 at 10:28 am

    fat slob peter abraham is such a homer his tweets make me laugh

  64. BIG AL February 20th, 2012 at 10:29 am

    randy l. -

    How do you feel about Hughes, and the fact he has a lesser pitch selection to work from than young mister Pineda, IMO.

    The fact that Hughes can’t, or hasn’t, commanded his FB very well leads me to believe he’ll have a rougher road this year winning than Pineda.

    I, along with you, seldom wager, but, if I were to wager, I’d bet on Pineda having a better W-L record than Hughes.

  65. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 10:33 am

    “Pineda threw more change ups his rookie year than Cain did…..he threw it 6.2% of the time last year”

    blake-

    cain threw a slider, cutter,curve, and change.

    he clearly had an aptitude for throwing lots of different pitches.

    he has a very balanced delivery that is different than pineda’s which is designed for velocity. it’s not a coincidence that pineda throws velocity pitches with the fast ball and slider.

    i seriously wonder if pineda can throw a good change. i would think they’d work on a two seam fastball first because that’s a pitch a catcher could use to keep the ball away from lefties.

    i know as a catcher, i’d like to use that pitch with a guy like gonzalez of the red sox at bat.

    it would have a different look and could be used away safely.

    a bad change that’s away isn’t really away.

  66. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 10:35 am

    EsquireMatt

    In 328 PA, Damon away from the Trop in 2011 hit: .280 .345 .463 .807

    Plus, he’s proven he can adapt his swing to YS’ dimensions, even if we should expect somewhat less production due to age.

    I think that makes him a better bet to hit RHP.

    Also, some have extolled the virtues of chemistry in baseball. I don’t know if it matters, but if it does, who is better that regard?

    I agree that it’s about money, and that’s sad given what a tiny percentage it is of their budget. But I also think it’s about a misperception of Ibanez’s defensive edge.

  67. pat February 20th, 2012 at 10:36 am

    Phrasal verb harp: To talk or write about to an excessive and tedious degree; dwell on.

    Smart or not it fits to a T

  68. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 10:37 am

    “The fact that Hughes can’t, or hasn’t, commanded his FB very well leads me to believe he’ll have a rougher road this year winning than Pineda.”

    big al-

    so why is hughes still having trouble with having plus pitches at this point in his career?

    don’t you think that maybe it is because he’s been forced to learn on the job.

    hughes used to command his fastball really well. and he seemed to have a plus curve.

    and he was supposedly developing a change.

    what happened?

    i say he got lost in trying to win in new york while trying to learn on the job.

    i’d like to see both at different times go to scranton and learn the right way.

  69. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 10:45 am

    “Smart or not it fits to a T”

    pat-

    you know how much baseball i’ve learned from your contributions to this blog?

    the answer would be zero.

    maybe you’d like to add something substantial to the conversation about pineda.

    i’m trying to come up to speed on this new guy who the yankees are trying to develop into a co ace .

    if you aren’t interested in learning about pineda and how the yankees are going to get from where he is to where they want him, then by all means read someone else.

    no one is twisting your arm to interact with me.

  70. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    Granted Damon does hit better v. LHP than Ibanez, but if it is a true platoon with Andruw, it doesn’t make much difference.

    It would make a difference because opposing managers would not be able to bring in a LOOGY and completely neutralize Damon like they can with Ibanez. I’d have paid the extra money for the insurance. If you’re giving Ibanez 4 million based on PA why not just sign Damon for 4 million (if possible)? In both situations you’re hoping for 4 million production, but one is more likely to happen. The other is just more protection in case it doesnt happen.

    Which is kinda like signing Ibanez to cut him.

  71. Bronx Jeers February 20th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    I’m kind of hoping there are some new developments in the Meanwell case…..

  72. disco stu February 20th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    I think the $ aspect of signing Ibanez cannot be overstated enough. If the Yankees had Damon as their #1 target he would have wanted to negotiate the best deal possible (even if he and Boras were willing to accept less than what they think he is worth).

    But it sounds like Ibanez is basically tellilng the Yankees, “Put whatever amount down you think I am worth and I will agree to it”.

    Since the difference in performance last year between the two of them is very similar, I think the Yankees went for the cheper option.

    But at the same time, the fact that Ibanez comes so cheap also gives the Yankees flexibility with how to use him in 2012. If he shows himself to be “shot”, the Yankees can simply cut him by mid-season and then look to upgrade the roster with another bat at the trade deadline. They will have already paid Ibanez about half of his nominal salary and the cost to just let him go would be nebulus to them. To me, this is very similar to 2010 when they brought in Randy Winn to start the season, he showed that he had nothing left, they cut him by June, and recalibrated the roster at the trade deadline by bringing in Lance Berkman and Austin Kearns.

    I would not be suprised if Damon signs with someone like Baltimore to start the year, Ibanez is terrible the first half and the Yankees cut him, and then we start hearing rumors in June/July that they are looking to re-acquire Damon for the stretch run.

  73. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    “It would make a difference because opposing managers would not be able to bring in a LOOGY and completely neutralize Damon like they can with Ibanez”

    Very good point.

  74. EsquireMatt February 20th, 2012 at 10:52 am

    Rich,

    Again, I think the production v RHP is going to be similar. Ibanez should have more pop. I don’t believe defense came into play against Damon, more so for Vlad and Matsui. It seems that for the extra 5-6M (including luxury tax), they went with Raul, not sure I disagree with that thinking.

    As far as chemistry is concerned, when things are going well Damon is fine, but if hes not getting his ABs, he’s got a chance to be toxic. Ibanez knows his role and seems to be fine with it.

  75. ET February 20th, 2012 at 10:52 am

    “Which is kinda like signing Ibanez to cut him.”

    And doesn’t that just say it all? This has Randy Winn written all over it.

  76. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 10:52 am

    @jay_jaffe

    More disconcerting about Raul Ibanez: out-of-zone swings jumped (24% to 32%), UIBB rate collapsed (9% to 5%). overcompensating for slow bat?

  77. blake February 20th, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Randy,

    Why do the 6% sliders and 6% CUs that Cain threw count but the 6% CUs that Pineda threw don’t? The only really difference between their first year arsenals is that Cain threw a few sliders to go with his Curveball and Pineda just threw sliders primarily in addition to his fastball……

    The point is….that guys can develop pitches in the big leagues …..pitchers do it all the time.

  78. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 10:55 am

    The Yankees did a great job with the LHP part of the platoon. Andruw Jones was good in 2010, I loved the signing in 2011, and bringing him back was kind of a no-brainer if they were really going to do it platoon style.

    I really wish this was reversed, and Jones was better vs RHP. They did a real good job on the smaller portion of the platoon. Mailed it in on the part of the platoon that will get 75% of the PAs.

  79. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    EM

    As I said, I don’t think Ibanez will have more pop given Damon’s proven ability to tailor his swing.

    If Ibanez performs as they hope (which is why they signed him right?), the difference chump change to them.

    Damon toxic? No offense, but that makes no sense. He’s a big boy. If he assented to the contract, he’d live up to his role.

  80. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 10:57 am

    “If my Fangraphs memory serves, CC Sabathia essentially completely made over his secondary pitch use at the major league level, and remained effective (as effective Yanks will need Pineda to be) the entire time.”

    stuckey-

    sabathia did it for the 68-94 2003 cleveland indians.

    pineda is being asked to win for the 97-65 2012 yankees.

    he’s being expected to go 12-9 at a minimum.

    if he goes 9-12 and the yankees win only 94 games, that’s gonna be a problem.

    pineda pitching for the 2012 yankees is not comparable to sabathia pitching for the 2003 cleveland indians who were more like the scranton yankees than the 2012 new york yankees.

  81. EsquireMatt February 20th, 2012 at 10:57 am

    At first I was going to agree that Ibanez can be negated by a LHP, but if they want to blow that bullet on him, and not save it for Grandy/Cano then so be it.

  82. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 10:57 am

    Why do the 6% sliders and 6% CUs that Cain threw count but the 6% CUs that Pineda threw don’t? The only really difference between their first year arsenals is that Cain threw a few sliders to go with his Curveball and Pineda just threw sliders primarily in addition to his fastball……

    The point is….that guys can develop pitches in the big leagues …..pitchers do it all the time.

    Clayton Kershaw completely ditched the curveball that earned him his nickname and got him to the bigleagues after 1 season, replacing it with a slider. He did this while also improving by like 200%. I think it is very possible. I don’t think Cain needed as much work as Pineda. He already had those pitches.

    Pineda does have a rudimentary cutter and 2seamer to go with the budding change up, which as I mentioned was his best pitch prior to 2011. It may not have been average or above average last year but that could just be a confidence thing. We know Martin will drop the change up sign down without fear. Burnett threw the most change ups of his career last year.

  83. Yank 97 February 20th, 2012 at 10:58 am

    Why can’t they cut Damon if things don’t work out? Not like he’s Jorge Posada here. Just because he won a ring with us, doesn’t make him some iconic Yankee. They don’t need to have a great relationship with him.

  84. blake February 20th, 2012 at 10:59 am

    Teams are going to LOOGY Ibanez to death…..

  85. Bronx Jeers February 20th, 2012 at 10:59 am

    “More disconcerting about Raul Ibanez: out-of-zone swings jumped (24% to 32%)…”

    Great, don’t tell me he’s chasing 2,000.

  86. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 11:00 am

    “Why can’t they cut Damon if things don’t work out? ”

    Of course, they could. They just age $20m on a guy who many think was indispensable in winning the 2009 WS. Business is business.

  87. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 11:01 am

    age = ate (freakin’ auto correct)

  88. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 11:03 am

    he’s being expected to go 12-9 at a minimum.

    if he goes 9-12 and the yankees win only 94 games, that’s gonna be a problem.

    12-9 at the minimum? Maybe for Kuroda. This also ignores no-decisions which still end up as decisions for the team.

    Last years records

    CC 19-8
    AJ 11-11
    Nova 16-4
    Colon 8-10
    Garcia 12-8
    Hughes 5-5

    They will be just fine with CC, Nova, Garcia, and Kuroda. Hughes and Pineda can win as many as they are capable of. The team will carry them on their back if they struggle, because the Yankees know Pineda doesnt need to be at his best right now. The postseason rotation (early, yea but sue me we’re making the playoffs) might not even have Pineda in it his first season. CC, Nova, Kuroda, Pineda/Hughes/Garcia is a big possibility with losers in the pen.

  89. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 11:03 am

    “The point is….that guys can develop pitches in the big leagues …..pitchers do it all the time.”

    blake-

    they do it for the 2003 indians that won 68 games and the 2006 giants that won 76 games.

    these teams are almost like triple a teams. there is no pressure to win. if they win great. they are allowed to lose while they learn.

    are young yankee pitchers allowed to lose while they learn?

    i haven’t seen that.

  90. blake February 20th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    “I don’t think Cain needed as much work as Pineda. He already had those pitches.”

    Maybe with relation to pitches….but he also walked 4+ guys per 9 his first season and didn’t get his walk rate below 3 until his 5th season…….Pineda did it in his first!

  91. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    At first I was going to agree that Ibanez can be negated by a LHP, but if they want to blow that bullet on him, and not save it for Grandy/Cano then so be it.

    Late in the game you may not get back around to Grandy or Cano. If Ibanez is one of your last shots before the 7-8-9 or 8-9 part of the roster and they use the LOOGY its basically a wasted PA.

    Not to mention Cano, and possibly Granderson again next year, do not show signs of being beaten by LOOGYs. Cano has always been good vs his same hand and Grandy of course had a huge improvement.

  92. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 11:05 am

    Maybe with relation to pitches….but he also walked 4+ guys per 9 his first season and didn’t get his walk rate below 3 until his 5th season…….Pineda did it in his first!

    Pinedas control is special, and I’d rather get pitchers with a few great pitches and plus control than 3-4 pitches and bad control.

  93. BIG AL February 20th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    IMO, not signing Damon has more to do with how he left the Yankees, than him being a better fit at this time for the DH position.

    randy l.
    I feel strongly Pineda will win 15 games this season, providing he remains healthy.

  94. pat February 20th, 2012 at 11:07 am

    New bullpen makes for worse fan viewing than the old pens by the bridge.

    https://twitter.com/#!/AndrewMarchand/status/171622955657330689/photo/1

  95. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 11:08 am

    Did Damon really leave the Yankees with worse feelings than Jeter had during the most recent contract negotiations, or the Yankees had when A-Rod opted out?

    I think fans overrate feelings. In business, people act in their self-interest.

  96. G. Love February 20th, 2012 at 11:10 am

    So basically this is the off season as I see it;

    Yankees had the choice of keeping Montero at DH and 3rd catcher, signing Kuroda and keeping Noesi as a rotation option. Or they could have done all of that and signed Darvish by bidding the most in posting.

    Instead, they chose to go with Pineda, Kuroda and Ibanez. I don’t factor Campos into anything as he’s a prospect who may or may not flame out before he sees Yankee stadium.

    If I had the choice, I would have kept Montero, signed Kuroda, went hard after Darvish and if you missed on him take your chances with CC, Kuroda, Nova, Garcia and Hughes/Noesi/etc.

    As a GM this is a magnifying glass year for Cashman on the field. If Darvish and Montero become phenoms and Pineda and Ibanez struggle, he will have looked to have had one of the worst off seasons in Yankee history. And the Steinbrothers will get lambasted as being penny pinchers for not ponying up for Darvish if he’s Texas’ ace going forward.

    I hate the Ibanez signing. It reeks of Cashman trying to show how smart he is. Put me in the camp that sees this as a Randy Winn signing and we’ll be saying goodbye to Ibanez by mid June.

    With Damon, Vlad and Matsui out there as options this looks to me to be a big mistake.

  97. Ys Guy February 20th, 2012 at 11:11 am

    pineda’s missing third pitch = montero’s glove.

  98. Ys Guy February 20th, 2012 at 11:12 am

    g love managed to leave out a little matter of $110 M cost of his plan…

  99. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    “Pineda does have a rudimentary cutter and 2seamer to go with the budding change up, which as I mentioned was his best pitch prior to 2011.”

    jerkface-

    i’d work on the two seam before i’d work on the change with pineda .

    kershaw spun the ball in the same direction with the curve and slider.

    a change or two seamer spins in the other direction than pinedas slider does.

    some pitchers never learn to spin the ball in both directions.

  100. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    “pineda’s missing third pitch = montero’s glove.”

    No, a 3rd pitch isn’t as important as inability to catch.

  101. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 11:14 am

    “sabathia did it for the 68-94 2003 cleveland indians.

    “pineda is being asked to win for the 97-65 2012 yankees.

    “he’s being expected to go 12-9 at a minimum.”

    Randy, I’m going to attempt to have a productive exchange here.

    Yes or no, isn’t it entirely possible whether or not Michael Pineda thrives or fails with the challenge of improving the effectiveness and increasing the use of another pitch on the environment you describe is more about the make-up of Michael Pineda than a one-size-fits-all rule-of-thumg for pitchers?

    It would take very little research to come up with an endless stream of successful pitchers who remade their arsenal at the major league level. Does someone actually have to do it for some of us to acknowledge it has been done and is possible?

    In my observational experience, some ML players respond to, and even experience the “pressure” you describe differently. Some are able to tune-out the moment, and forget their last failure.

    The case you’ve been trying to make is that Michael Pineda won’t give the pitch the attention that it requires because either he’ll be afraid to use it given the pressure to win in-game and/or he’ll be scared to use it if he experiences early failure – if he hangs one and it’s hit a long way into the rightfield stands.

    Again, this is possible, but its not definite.

    Are you able to simply acknowledge that maybe Michael Pineda won’t react to the circumstances this way? Yes or no?

  102. Best To Ever Do It February 20th, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Is this the new Yankee way …. of developing young pitchers ?

    ———————————

    The starter to bullpen stuff didn’t work so they might as well trying something.

  103. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 11:17 am

    Team Bonus Pool
    Twins $12,368,200
    Astros $11,177,700
    Padres $9,903,100
    Cardinals $9,131,100
    Blue Jays $8,830,800
    Athletics $8,469,500
    Mariners $8,223,400
    Cubs $7,933,900
    Mets $7,151,400
    Red Sox $6,884,800
    Orioles $6,826,900
    Brewers $6,764,700
    Reds $6,653,800
    Rockies $6,628,300
    Rangers $6,568,200
    Pirates $6,563,500
    Royals $6,101,500
    White Sox $5,915,100
    Dodgers $5,202,800
    Marlins $4,935,100
    Phillies $4,916,900
    Indians $4,582,900
    Nationals $4,436,200
    Yankees $4,192,200
    Giants $4,076,400
    Braves $4,030,800
    Rays $3,871,000
    Diamondbacks $3,818,300
    Tigers $2,099,300
    Angels $1,645,700
    Total $189,903,500

    Draft pools. Rays getting crushed here. They have less money to spend than the Yankees. who thought this was a good idea?

  104. RayVT February 20th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    I think the Yanks chose Ibanez over Damon for basically two reasons.
    1.) Cheaper
    2.) Easier to dump if not up to par.

    Where I think the Yanks missed the point is Damon was hitting at Tampa where no one hit & Ibanez was hitting in a hitter’s park in Philly. Damon is far better in all aspects over Ibanez except throwing.

  105. LGY February 20th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    The one thing I don’t get about the Yankees DH search is if they were planning to go with a declining old dude, why did they push Posada into retirement?

    He had easily the best season vs RHP last year.

  106. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 11:23 am

    Jerkface

    Do you have a link to the formula?

  107. Yank 97 February 20th, 2012 at 11:24 am

    I honestly prefer giving Branyan a chance over Ibanez

  108. Bret The Hitman February 20th, 2012 at 11:25 am

    No Posada because you can’t oust him mid season if a trade presents itself.

  109. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 11:25 am

    “Put me in the camp that sees this as a Randy Winn signing and we’ll be saying goodbye to Ibanez by mid June. ”

    What happened the season Cashman signed Randy Winn?

    Cashman’s job is to get the Yankees to the postseason. Within the framework of his job responsibilities and over the course of a 162 game season, there are dozens of moving parts. Some decisions are going to lead to success, some won’t. Some of you guys conduct yourselves as of the Yankees are never allowed to have an unproductive player on their roster. That such an affront constitutes failure on its own.

    Cashman and the Yankees FO are going to hit grand slams. They’re going to pitch shut-outs and sweep series.

    They’re also going to get shut-out, make a critical error that costs a game, and drop a series.

    But the goal is to win enough to make the postseason. And the Yankees do that every year* (* minus one).

    Bringing up Randy Winn again and again DOES remind me of a game thread in June where some fans here can’t believe the Yankees could lose a game to the O’s.

    It just lacks perspective.

    Raul Ibanez may or may not be a tough 6 game stretch in June. He’s not going to be the difference between the Yankees accomplishing their 2012 goals.

    As I said the other day, the whole Ibanez dialogue reminds of a game thread in which the Yankees fall behind 3-0 after 3.

    The indignation is just WAAAAY out of proportion to the impact.

  110. DONNYBROOK February 20th, 2012 at 11:26 am

    Cashman’s admission that the Yanks Tanked the AL East in 2010, is just another verbal attempt on his part to attract attention to himself. Somebody put a sock in this guy’s mouth. That admission is not only embarassing to this great franchise, but it also validates the contention that the Yanks tanked Sept last season. Cashman’s public comments have become a public embarassment to the Yankee Organization. Hal needs to call Cashman On-The-Carpet, and instruct him to put an end to the Extemporaneous comments he continues to make. They do nothing but make the greatest sports franchise in history look bad.

  111. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 11:27 am

    What happened the season Cashman signed Randy Winn?

    Cashman’s job is to get the Yankees to the postseason. Within the framework of his job responsibilities and over the course of a 162 game season, there are dozens of moving parts. Some decisions are going to lead to success, some won’t. Some of you guys conduct yourselves as of the Yankees are never allowed to have an unproductive player on their roster. That such an affront constitutes failure on its own.

    Winn wasnt even around for the playoffs. He was unable to help them win in the postseason because he was bad. Why not sign the guy that has a better chance of making an impact on the postseason, rather than the guy that is going to be a speed bump on the way there?

  112. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 11:27 am

    “I honestly prefer giving Branyan a chance over Ibanez”

    That’s why I was ok with the original report of a mL deal. If it’s really about ease in DFAing, I hope they have the stones to cut Ibanez in ST if Branyan beats him out.

  113. Ys Guy February 20th, 2012 at 11:28 am

    this board has become worse in this offseason that it used to be during games. ibanez hasn’t even shown up at camp yet and people want him thrown out with the trash (like they did ian kennedy) pineda might as well be released and cashman and girardi are the worst gm/ manager combination in the game. i think the red socks blog has more respect for the yankees than the most active posters here.

  114. G. Love February 20th, 2012 at 11:28 am

    Y’s guy – Actually my choice would have been signing Kuroda and calling it an off season. That wouldn’t have cost more than 10 million. As for the little matter of 110 million if they got Darvish, I guess you believe everything you read. They are not the Wilpons. They have money and you’ll see exactly how much they have if Cashman’s off season plan fails miserably. If Montero and Darvish become stars and Pineda and Ibanez struggle, the Yankees will, without a doubt, find 200 million in their ash trays for Cain or Hamels next year and will trade the farm to replace Montero’s bat.

  115. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 11:28 am

    Do you have a link to the formula?

    Its not a formula really. Each pick has a $$ value so they just add up all the picks for each team. Obviously a team like the Red Sox managed to acquire a bunch of draft picks so they have as much money to spend as the Orioles despite winning 30 more games.

  116. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Ys Guy

    You don’t like reality, I don’t like fanboys. But I don’t say anything about it until someone like you posts that kind of stuff because I think everyone is entitled to their opinion.

  117. LGY February 20th, 2012 at 11:30 am

    No Posada because you can’t oust him mid season if a trade presents itself.

    ——

    Who is trading the Yankees a bat midseason?

  118. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 11:30 am

    I hear you. Thanks, Jerkface.

  119. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 11:31 am

    “The case you’ve been trying to make is that Michael Pineda won’t give the pitch the attention that it requires because either he’ll be afraid to use it given the pressure to win in-game and/or he’ll be scared to use it if he experiences early failure – if he hangs one and it’s hit a long way into the rightfield stands.”

    sure , it’s possible that pineda will not let the pressure of pitching in new york where winning is everything get to him and that he’ll not let the short right field stands get to him, but to me it’s human nature that these things will make it harder for him to succeed.

    if the yankees goal is a long term one with pineda, why rush him into the heat of the fire so soon.
    what’s the downside of 6 weeks at scranton where he throws the change up even when they know it’s coming ?

  120. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 11:33 am

    “Winn wasnt even around for the playoffs. He was unable to help them win in the postseason because he was bad. Why not sign the guy that has a better chance of making an impact on the postseason, rather than the guy that is going to be a speed bump on the way there?”

    Because it assumes the move is doomed.

    If Raul Ibanez has a productive season, some of you guys will apparently be surprised. If Jonny Damon has a terrible year, appatently some of you guys will be surprised.

    I will be surprised by none of the 8 possible combinations of Ibanez/Damond-Good-Bad years because baseball has taught linear projection is a tool, not a rule.

    And again, for some reason Ibanez leads to a rhetorical question – we know the reasons why Ibanez is being chosen. We’ve known them for better than a week now.

    Why do be continue to be fixated on a situation we both understand and can’t change?

  121. blake February 20th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    “Pinedas control is special, and I’d rather get pitchers with a few great pitches and plus control than 3-4 pitches and bad control.”

    Me too…..

  122. RayVT February 20th, 2012 at 11:35 am

    If you are telling me that Pineda is a #4 or #5 SP for 2012 then I am even more against trading Montero. Pineda is being brought in to be a #2 SP.
    1>0 CC
    2.) Pineda
    3.) Kuroda
    4.) Nova
    5.) Hughes

    BU SP – Garcia in case someone gets hurt or he becomes a long man like Colon was to start last year.

    The Yanks really need Hughes to step up and be the guy who becomes a #2, #3 or #4 SP for this year or at least by next year because Kuroda will most likely be gone.

  123. G. Love February 20th, 2012 at 11:35 am

    Wow. So wait a second. A fan of the team must love Ibanez’s signing or else we’re Red Sox fans? Give it a break. Some of you are so sad with your “I’m a better Yankee fan than you!” schtick. Okay, you win. You get a nice Yankee windbreaker and a dollop of ice cream for loving Ibanez. You’re the Dimaggio of fans.

    The team went cheap and old when better options were available on the scrap heap. Hooray! I’m so excited they did that! Huzzah.

    Damon, Matsui or Vlad would have been infinitely better but they didn’t want to basically play for free as Cashman has requested since he thinks all of them are old and washed up and should be begging him for work.

  124. Ys Guy February 20th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    reality is this team is better than last year’s and they won 97 games. to read the crap on this board from you and others you’d think we were talking about the mets.

    as for fanboys, i think the whole tenor of the board has everything to do with people being way too crazy fanboys of a guy who’s not here anymore.

    but it’s ok, because im going to be here to stick it to you guys all year long as the Yankees win and pineda excels.

  125. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 11:38 am

    I don’t believe in baseball Nihilism, stuckey, there are objectively better moves teams can make even. We talk about the moves because we are baseball fans and Yankee fans thats what is going on with the team right now. The Yankees are going to the playoffs, in view of that immutable fact what would you, High Arbiter of Appropriate Conversations, wish us to discuss?

    Humans like to beat the horse, look at any news channel, deal with it you alien.

  126. Ys Guy February 20th, 2012 at 11:38 am

    did i accuse anyone of being a red socks fan? no. did i accuse anyone of being a met’s fan? no. i just expressed positive opinions about the yankees, and negative opinions about the fact that the people who slam the yankees on here all day. if you don’t like that, don’t read my comments.

    Let’s Go Yankees!

  127. blake February 20th, 2012 at 11:39 am

    “Y’s guy – Actually my choice would have been signing Kuroda and calling it an off season.”

    Me too…….but it is what it ks now…..

  128. Ys Guy February 20th, 2012 at 11:40 am

    i didnt say what people should or shouldn’t post, i just commented on what you did post. post away, it doesnt bother me at all. i was just making an observation.

  129. blake February 20th, 2012 at 11:40 am

    “Who is trading the Yankees a bat midseason?”

    Hopefully somebody

  130. Doc Iac February 20th, 2012 at 11:41 am

    Ys Guy February 20th, 2012 at 11:12 am

    g love managed to leave out a little matter of $110 M cost of his plan…

    ———-

    hahah that made my day

  131. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 11:41 am

    “reality is this team is better than last year’s and they won 97 games.”

    Reality is far more granular. It’s looking at every move and making a fact-based assessment of each one.

    “but it’s ok, because im going to be here to stick it to you guys all year long as the Yankees win and pineda excels.”

    Stick this, Ys Guy, few here (certainly not myself) have said that Pineda won’t pitch well or that the Yankees don’t have the ability to win big; they do.

    That doesn’t mean any of us can’t argue that this or that move would make them even better.

    And whether you realize it or not, your post: “pineda’s missing third pitch = montero’s glove” is really a diss of Pineda, as I pointed out above.

  132. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 11:41 am

    Honestly? With all of this Pineda discussion? it’s like you guys didn’t read Cashman’s interview last night at all.

  133. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 11:42 am

    “Who is trading the Yankees a bat midseason?”

    What’s the DOW going to be the day before the November elections?

    Who’s going to win a Heat-Bull series?

    What does predicting the future have to do with this?

  134. jpmatrixfan88 February 20th, 2012 at 11:42 am

    Some of you people on here need to get your facts straight. First, Pineda DOES HAVE a change up. Some of you think that literally he can only throw fastball/slider. This is incorrect. In fact, as another poster pointed out, pre-2011 his change up was described as a plus pitch. For whatever reason, he threw his slider a lot last year and barely threw his change. But he does NOT have to LEARN a change. He just needs to polish it up and throw it more. Also, he DOES have a two-seam fastball as well, but he threw it even less then the change up last year. He does NOT need to learn any new pitches just refine and throw more often what he already has.

    Perhaps he leaned on fastball/slider last year because it was his first taste of MLB and was a little timid to try other stuff. Remember when Joba came up he had a solid curve ball but very rarely threw it at all. I know it’s different because he was a set up man, but still, you guys NEED to get your facts straight. It’s annoying reading such crap on this blog, so many people don’t know what they are talking about.

  135. Bronx Jeers February 20th, 2012 at 11:43 am

    if the yankees goal is a long term one with pineda, why rush him into the heat of the fire so soon.

    ———————————————————————

    For the sake of perception? They traded Montero for a future ace and not a AAA pitcher.

    There’s a lot of catch 22′s in developing starters in Yankeeland.

  136. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 11:43 am

    PIneda pitched on the west coast last year, how any people actually saw him pitch more than one game?

    Pineda is going to be FINE and all this bellyaching will be written off months from now as trolling.

  137. G. Love February 20th, 2012 at 11:44 am

    All of the good vibes all the time or else we’ll scratch your eyes out police are just as annoying as any other kind of poster we have here.

    Keep policing the board. You’ll have 3 people talking to each other in here in no time.

  138. LGY February 20th, 2012 at 11:46 am

    What’s the DOW going to be the day before the November elections?

    Who’s going to win a Heat-Bull series?

    What does predicting the future have to do with this?

    ———

    Simple.

    If one of the main reasons the Yankees signed Ibanez is because it’s easier to cut him they better have evaluated potential trade possibilities for this summer.

  139. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 11:46 am

    Can the 3 people constantly harping about Pineda/Montero leave instead?

  140. Crawdaddy February 20th, 2012 at 11:47 am

    “All of the good vibes all the time or else we’ll scratch your eyes out police are just as annoying as any other kind of poster we have here. ”

    Why don’t you lecture bad vibes all the time?

  141. jpmatrixfan88 February 20th, 2012 at 11:48 am

    And further more, same goes for Ibanez. He’s no Babe Ruth, but he only costs $1.1 million and DID hit 20 HR’s and drive in 84 runs last year. You guys act like we just signed Ramiro Pena to DH.

    I agree with Ys Guy, this team won 97 games last year and there is no way in hell that they are worse RIGHT NOW than at ANY point last year. Ibanez will hit just as well as Posada, Jeter/Arod/Martin/Swisher/Gardner likely won’t do worse as they sort of had down years last year, and our rotation is way better, bullpen is still great and will get a reinforcement in Joba when he is healthy. Our AAA rotation depth is insane, and we will get a bat at the deadline if our offense implodes. You guys need to chill out, this team is rock solid. Perfect? Of course not, but we’re good to go.

  142. Eroc February 20th, 2012 at 11:48 am

    “Who is trading the Yankees a bat midseason?”

    And even if someone were willing to, would Hal pay for it? I imagine it would be a salary dump kind of bat.

    Or a non-difference maker who probably wouldn’t be as good as Damon anyway

  143. blake February 20th, 2012 at 11:48 am

    G Love,

    What does Hank think of the budget?

  144. DONNYBROOK February 20th, 2012 at 11:48 am

    Jack Z is gonna supply that Yankee Bat in July = ICHIRO. The sooner you guys fall-in-line regarding this, the Less egg on your face come the Trade deadline. Of course, some of you obviously like egg sandwiches.

  145. disco stu February 20th, 2012 at 11:48 am

    I also wonder if the Ibanez signing is also aimed at putting Brett Gardner on notice that 2012 is a watershed year for him in pinstripes.

    For the last two seasons the left field job has basically been his. Despite the fact that he has grown into a tremendous defensive outfielder and has that incredible element of speed to his game, I would have to think that the Yankees have genuine concerns about how his offensive progression at the ML level translates long term.

    Have his offensive inconsistencies reached the point where the Yankees now need to rethink his role? If Gardner starts off slow this season, will the platoon of Ibanez and Jones be more for left field than at DH, wth Gardner more or less a late game defensive replacement, and the Yankees using others to fill the DH spot?

  146. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 11:49 am

    “if the yankees goal is a long term one with pineda, why rush him into the heat of the fire so soon.”

    If the Yankees goal is a long term one with pineda, why rush to judgment on whether he’ll be prone to the fear-based limitations that is part of YOUR outlooks?

    “what’s the downside of 6 weeks at scranton where he throws the change up even when they know it’s coming ?”

    What’s the downside of 6 week at Tampa before deciding this particular individal needs 6 weeks in scranton, or the pitch does, for that matter?

    Again, I’ll I’m suggesting is let’s take the next month plus to better inform a decision that doesn’t require be made today, particularly given Pineda is a new player to the Yankees they need to get to know.

    The answer that pops up in my mind is because waiting until the last week of March to reassess the situation doesn’t help color the Montero trade right NOW, which appears to be the priority, here.

  147. BIG AL February 20th, 2012 at 11:50 am

    randy l. -

    I do understand, and respect your point of view, as to the method the Yankees have used in the past to develop young pitchers.

    As to why Hughes has struggled, I believe some of his trouble has been of his own making. By this I mean he felt good about his first half 2010 season, and may have felt it would just continue going forward. Then last season he came to camp in terrible shap, and his entire season was put in jeopardy, and as I’m sure you are aware, an athlete that is out of shape, tends to be even more prone to injury. If Hughes is in as good of shape as has been stated, this could very well be a bounce back year, I hope so.

  148. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 11:50 am

    Have his offensive inconsistencies reached the point where the Yankees now need to rethink his role? If Gardner starts off slow this season, will the platoon of Ibanez and Jones be more for left field than at DH, wth Gardner more or less a late game defensive replacement, and the Yankees using others to fill the DH spot?

    I hope not, this would be awful.

  149. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 11:51 am

    stuckey – But But But… If they wait until Pineda actually pitches, then he may pitch well… and they’ll be out of things to complain about… It’s a very scary time for them.

  150. DONNYBROOK February 20th, 2012 at 11:51 am

    - ID -
    I saw Pineda pitch 6 games. Any questions inquire here. Cashman did make a good move with that trade, though Jack Z is the guy that initiated it. People seem to forget that.

  151. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 11:51 am

    “If one of the main reasons the Yankees signed Ibanez is because it’s easier to cut him they better have evaluated potential trade possibilities for this summer.”

    Do we know if they did or didn’t?

  152. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 11:52 am

    donny – I would never inquire for your opinion on a pitcher, thanks though.

  153. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 11:52 am

    “I also wonder if the Ibanez signing is also aimed at putting Brett Gardner on notice that 2012 is a watershed year for him in pinstripes.”

    A guy who will be used on defense only in an emergency will put what is probably the best defensive LF in MLB on notice?

    Gardner will rise or fall on his ability to hit more consistently, and no 40 year old, declining DH will have any impact on that.

  154. Eroc February 20th, 2012 at 11:53 am

    Pineda has to be more than fine in order to justify us trading the next Cabrera for him when we didn’t even need him.

    Again, this is not about Pineda – it is about giving up Montero. MAYBE if the team got a Kershaw/King Felix back, they would be more calm. But nonetheless, this is about trading away a lethal offensive young talent and recognizing that we will need that in the near future.

  155. blake February 20th, 2012 at 11:53 am

    Anybody else find it interesting that the Phillies were considering trading for AJ but they won’t sign Oswalt back? Makes kinda wonder how much his back is duct taped together.

  156. LGY February 20th, 2012 at 11:53 am

    Do we know if they did or didn’t?

    ——-

    Why didn’t they try to bring Posada back?

    He of the 814 OPS vs RHP last year and their best hitter in the playoffs.

  157. DONNYBROOK February 20th, 2012 at 11:53 am

    - disco -
    Gardner looked great offensively in that 5 game ALDS. When the guy stops swinging’ from-the-heels, he’s A-OK.

  158. austinmac February 20th, 2012 at 11:54 am

    I would have loved the Yankees to have signed Darvish and kept Montero. However, it is not my money and the Yankees now are very interested in keeping payroll down. With the new frugality, I think the Yankees flet they had too many holes in the rotation even with Kuroda. I do know I feel much better about the roation and therefroe team this year than last. Will it work out? I think it will, but, as they say, the games are not played on paper.

    I do disagree with the proposition a third pitch can’t be developed by a 23 year old or he can’t develop it on a good team. There is no data to say that.

    Pineda is not Hughes. He has a better fastball and a very good slider. Both pitches are better than any pitch Hughes has.

    I saw Pineda pitch three times last year. My impression was, “damn, he has great stuff.” He reminded me of a young Felix.

  159. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    “Anybody else find it interesting that the Phillies were considering trading for AJ but they won’t sign Oswalt back? Makes kinda wonder how much his back is duct taped together.”

    As I mentioned, blake, I wouldn’t be surprised if Halliday told him he knows how to get the most out of AJ.

  160. BIG AL February 20th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    Donnybrook -

    What does an aging, over-the-hill Ichiro have to offer the Yankees, nothing.

    There are players now on the 40 man that can offer what Ichiro can, IMO.

    We are not talking about the Ichiro of yesterday, but rather the player he is today, a shell of what he once was.

  161. LGY February 20th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    Wait. Are you asking if they did or didn’t evaluate midseason trade possibilities?

  162. RayVT February 20th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    I thinkthe Yanks see Ibanez as a very cheap gamble only. I think there are concerns over Nova, Pineda & Hughes in the rotation with Garcia being the hedge for one of them. If 2 or more of the young 3 falter, then a trade of prospects will be in order to get a SP. If all 3 do well, then a trade for a young hitter who can play the OF or 3B will be in order.

    I understand that the season is dynamic, so we don’t have to have everything in place before the post season rosters are set. I think Cashman kind of stated that given the hints of just trying to be ready for the playoffs instead of winning the division.

  163. blake February 20th, 2012 at 11:56 am

    I think this is a big seaskn for Gardner if he wants to be with the Yanks long term…..but I cant see how Ibanez has anything to do with that.

  164. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 11:56 am

    I find it extremely amusing that the same people that come at the “stats” posters for not “watching and observing the game” are the same people making completely unfounded, uninformed declarations about how successful Pineda can/will be.

    blake – Yes, I find that extremely telling. 2 pitchers people were absolutely dying to have signed up this offseason, E-Jax took pennies from the Nats and Oswalt is stilllooking for work.

  165. DONNYBROOK February 20th, 2012 at 11:56 am

    - ID -
    You asked, I told you. Ignorance is bliss.

  166. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 11:59 am

    Eroc – MAYBE if the team got a Kershaw/King Felix back

    Maybe, you need to temper your expectations for Montero? Calling him “the next Cabrera” does not make it so. He has 3-4 years of developing, learning and adjustments to the pitchers/strikezone/umpires ahead of him before anyone can claim him to be truly elite.

  167. Clare February 20th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    Hey pat. I know you don’t need me to have your back, but I just wanted to point out that I always appreciate what you bring to this forum, including some great links over the years. And you were spot-on with the vocabulary today.

  168. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    donnybrook – I asked, and you answered… and you told me you watched roughly half of the Pineda starts that I did, so I’ll trust what I saw, thanks.

  169. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    Are we going italics again?

  170. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    “there are objectively better moves teams can make even. ”

    ANY baseball move requires subjective evaluation.

    “The Yankees are going to the playoffs, in view of that immutable fact what would you, High Arbiter of Appropriate Conversations, wish us to discuss?”

    There will be 25 guys on the roster to start the year. Probably more like 35+ will play a role during the year. There is an entire farm system.

    Taking a shot at me doesn’t do anything to change the simple idea that there are other conversations to be had other than the same Raul Ibanez conversation cyclically repeated.

    Or are YOU playing the role of “High Arbiter of Appropriate Conversations” and deeming any discussion other than Raul Ibanez of being unworthy of attention?

    “Humans like to beat the horse”

    Got nothing to add here other than my agreement.

  171. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    sorry rick- Just missed a tag. :) I’ve noticed that when the page breaks, it’s not from missed tags i someone’s post, but it’s from something in one of their wordpress modules that rewrites the posts (the url cleaner i think).

  172. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    “Who is trading the Yankees a bat midseason?”

    LGY, this question struck me as rhetorical, meant to describe the Yankees chances of trading for a bat at midseason?

    My response was meant to express the idea none of us can predict whether or not a bat will or won’t be available.

    If your question was genuine, my response would be. I don’t know, it’s not mid-season yet.

  173. DONNYBROOK February 20th, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    - CAPONE -
    Lot left in the tank of Ichiro. Keep your eye on him right outta the blocks this season. I hear he got a new hyperbolic chamber.

  174. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Donny – While your posts may be hyperbolic, I don’t believe Ichiro’s workout is.

  175. austinmac February 20th, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    If the Yankees want to add a bat in July, then let us hope the AAA pitchers pitch well. It is from that depth a bat could come, or, at least, if they show they are ready.

    It has seemed this off-season either the Yankees weren’t marketing Phelps, Warren or Mitchell or no one was interested in them. They all pitched pretty well, but I suppose they don’t have the big stuff to get other teams’ interest.

  176. Rich in NJ February 20th, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    I’m not quite that html literate, ID. ;)

  177. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    “And you were spot-on with the vocabulary today.”

    your contributions are immense too.

    trying contributing something baseball related.

  178. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    Taking a shot at me doesn’t do anything to change the simple idea that there are other conversations to be had other than the same Raul Ibanez conversation cyclically repeated.

    Or are YOU playing the role of “High Arbiter of Appropriate Conversations” and deeming any discussion other than Raul Ibanez of being unworthy of attention?

    What are the other conversations? Start one. I’m not telling anyone they cannot discuss something or lamenting why people are choosing to discuss a thing. How can you say I am trying to play that role? You’re the one wasting hundreds of words on it every day, exasperated at the unsurprising actions of other humans.

  179. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    try contributing, that is.

  180. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    MLB teams combined to spend $228,009,050 on draft bonuses in 2011, and a total of $236,059,050 including additional guarantees in major league contracts for Danny Hultzen, Trevor Bauer, Dylan Bundy, Anthony Rendon and Matt Purke. Those are both records, up from $195,782,830 and $201,832,830 in 2010.

    With the 189 pool this year, with very harsh penalties for going over, the MLBPA and Owners have managed to reduce draft spending by 20% while also distributing the money in a hilarious stupid fashion.

    Good job, baseball.

  181. LGY February 20th, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    LGY, this question struck me as rhetorical, meant to describe the Yankees chances of trading for a bat at midseason?

    My response was meant to express the idea none of us can predict whether or not a bat will or won’t be available.

    If your question was genuine, my response would be. I don’t know, it’s not mid-season yet.

    ———–

    Why does everything have to be so black and white with you?

    Several people have mentioned cutting Ibanez loose and going for a trade midseason. I’m not asking for someone to look into the future and tell me what will happen, but to evaluate the landscape and who they have in mind.

    It’s a discussion point.

  182. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    “Then last season he came to camp in terrible shap, and his entire season was put in jeopardy, and as I’m sure you are aware, an athlete that is out of shape, tends to be even more prone to injury.”

    big al-

    isn’t pineda twenty pounds overweight coming in?

    just saying.

  183. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    “What’s the downside of 6 week at Tampa before deciding this particular individal needs 6 weeks in scranton, or the pitch does, for that matter?”

    tell that to cashman.

    he’s the one who say no scranton for pineda and that he must learn the change under fire at yankee stadium.

  184. blake February 20th, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    Tough to see how the players thought this CBA was good for the sport.

  185. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    randy – Actually he didn’t say that, he said they would work on it and he didn’t think AAA would be necessary.

    Try not putting words in his mouth, it’ll make you look less completely insane.

  186. Ys Guy February 20th, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    from twitter “@YankeesPR mariano back on the mound at GMS Field.”

    so cashman lied again…

  187. Irreverent Discourse February 20th, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    Why is the NY Post the only paper with the full Cashman interview, I refuse to link it :/

  188. Clare February 20th, 2012 at 12:21 pm

    randy,

    I wasn’t talking to you. But since you asked for my contribution, I think your “baseball related contributions” this off-season have done at least as much to make the comments sections of this blog unreadable as the trolls have done in the past, because of your harping on the Montero trade, and because of the way you attack those who disagree with you.

  189. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    “What are the other conversations? Start one.”

    Okay, here’s one.

    The 20111 NY Yankees lost 3 ALDS games in which they scored 4, 3 and 2 runs.

    In the wildcard era there was another ALDS series in which the yankees had three games in which they scored the exact run totals of 4, 3, and 2 runs.

    Can anyone name that ALDS?

    “I’m not telling anyone they cannot discuss something”

    Neither am I. Are we getting close to the “free speech” and comparing me to Hitler part of this dialogue?

    I’d defend your right to be be as repetitive as your like, while at the same time defend my right to call it repetitive.

    “How can you say I am trying to play that role?”

    You’re criticizing what I choose to converse about and suggesting I should not, or do I misunderstand you?

    “You’re the one wasting hundreds of words on it every day, exasperated at the unsurprising actions of other humans.”

    You’re the one wasting hundreds of words on it every day, exasperated at the unsurprising actions of the Yankees.

    Unless you’re still surprised 10 days after the fact.

    See how easy that is?

  190. Ys Guy February 20th, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    actually i think the cba is great for the sport, if not necessarily for the yankees or the players. but they certainly didn’t consult marvin miller before they approved it…

  191. MaineYankee February 20th, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    randy

    isn’t pineda twenty pounds overweight coming in?

    just saying.

    ——————————————————-

    To quote a show from our era. “Just the facts Ma’m”.

    It was ten not twenty.

  192. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    “It’s a below-average pitch for him right now,” Cashman said. “I don’t think there’s a No. 1 or 2 starter in the big leagues right now with only two pitches. I just don’t think you can maybe pitch like that for an extended period of time. To be a consistent number one or two starter, you need more than two pitches.

    “In fairness, to frame it properly, I made the trade for a reason. I’m dreaming on the guy, obviously, and we’re dreaming on the guy but the fact of the matter is there’s work to be done still and we look forward to working with him and watching him work towards that. Time will tell. But its going to take time.”

    Some other notes from today.

    • Cashman quickly shot down the idea that Pineda’s development could include a trip to Triple-A this season? “That’s not something I’m thinking about,” he said.

  193. stuckey February 20th, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    “tell that to cashman.”

    I’m not talking to Cashman, I’m talking to you.

    Can you answer my question please?

  194. blake February 20th, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    “actually i think the cba is great for the sport, if not necessarily for the yankees or the players. but they certainly didn’t consult marvin miller before they approved it…”

    Its probably going to help competitive balance…..but the actual quality of product may suffer if some of the kids start choosing other sports (especially in other countries) if they can’t get paid as much to sign…..

  195. blake February 20th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    Randy,

    What do you make of the fact that it took Matt Cain 5 years to get his walk rate below 3 and Pineda did it in his first season? There are a lot of positives with this kid that you are glossing over IMO to focus on his developing CU…..

  196. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    clare-

    then don’t read it if its unreadable to you.

    whine to someone who cares.

    i don’t get along great with jerkface or lgy or even rich in nj sometimes, but they do pass on baseball info to me. i learn from debating with them.

    you and pat i learn zilch.

    it seems to me you are the one who makes the blog unreadable.

  197. MaineYankee February 20th, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    Day 1 comes to an end :arrow:

  198. blake February 20th, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    Nobody denies that Pineda needs another weapon against lefties to be a #1 starter……but clearly the Yanks think he can improve his CU enough to do that at his age or they wouldn’t have made the trade

  199. Jerkface February 20th, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    actually i think the cba is great for the sport, if not necessarily for the yankees or the players. but they certainly didn’t consult marvin miller before they approved it…

    How? How is it great for the sport? Less players from latin america will sign. More college players debating between 2 sports may side with the non-baseball one. Draft spending was cut by 20% and much of that is for teams that NEED to draft.

    Teams like the Pirates, Royals, and rays who spend a lot of money in the draft now have far less to work with.

  200. Clare February 20th, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    randy,

    This may come as a shock to you, but the comments section does not exist solely for your educational benefit, and you are not the arbiter of worthwhile comments and posters. If you want to spend all day every day harping on the same points, you have to expect others to express their frustration. And, as you say, just move on if you don’t like my posts. I’ve been ignoring yours for months now, but I happened to catch your laughable attack on pat and wanted to respond.

  201. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    blake-

    pineda must repeat his delivery to get the command he does. but he is off balance on his left leg which is why he falls so severely towards first base .

    i’m not sure he can add touch from that unbalanced though repeating position.

    having command of a fastball and having touch on a change up are two different things.

    the beauty of this is that we are going to be seeing quickly what pineda can do. because of these debates we will all be watching with a microscope every change up pineda throws.
    that’s a bad thing ?

    i think the people who can’t stomach heated debate are people who really don’t like learning.

  202. randy l. February 20th, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    “This may come as a shock to you, but the comments section does not exist solely for your educational benefit, and you are not the arbiter of worthwhile comments and posters”

    clare-

    the comments section doesn’t exist for your reading pleasure either.

    pat made a snide unsolicited remark towards me.

    if she can’t take the heat back , she shouldn’t throw insults.

    same goes for you.

    if you want to be a casual fan, it’s fine with me. why don’t you casual fans just talk with each other. i doubt anyone will bother you.

    i prefer geting into baseball more deeply than that.

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