Losing the numbers game
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 21, 2012 
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I honestly had no idea what Andruw Jones was talking about this morning. He was talking about letting Hiroki Kuroda take No. 18, saying he never asked for anything in return before switching to No. 22.
“They called me and (he) was more than welcome,” Jones said. “It’s a Japanese thing, so why not let him do it?”
Japanese thing? Kuroda explained this afternoon that No. 18 is often the number worn by a team’s ace in Japan. It’s the number he’s worn every since coming to the U.S. to play for the Dodgers.
“It wasn’t as important as a lot of people think,” Kuroda said. “But it’s a number I’ve been wearing for four years.”
By the way, there’s another number change on the Yankees roster.
Chris Dickerson is now wearing No. 41, having lost his No. 27 to Raul Ibanez. Dickerson would have liked to wear the number he had with the Reds, but that was No. 21, and the Yankees didn’t want to give him Paul O’Neill’s old number. It’s funny, of course, that Dickerson got that number in the first place when he was playing for O’Neill’s original team.
Associated Press photo
Chris Dickerson is now wearing No. 41, having lost his No. 27 to Raul Ibanez. Dickerson would have liked to wear the number he had with the Reds, but that was No. 21, and the Yankees didn’t want to give him Paul O’Neill’s old number. It’s funny, of course, that Dickerson got that number in the first place when he was playing for O’Neill’s original team.
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They could have given him 8 and it wouldn’t matter much – Dickerson won’t be a Yankee by opening day.
18 is really the number of games Kuroda is planning on winning
blake February 21st, 2012 at 3:38 pm
18 is really the number of games Kuroda is planning on winning
———————
Well then CC’s 52 is really optimistic.
Yankees are afraid of another Latroy Hawkins incident
I think Kuroda and Jones will be the unexpected (at least by some) significant contributors this season.
Well then CC’s 52 is really optimistic
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Flip CC’s number and who gets closer to their jersey number in wins? CC 25 or Kuroda 18?
I think Kuroda will be closer to 18 wins than CC will to 25
20, 21 and 51 are numbers that are going to not going to be accepted on anyone else’s uniform by any yankee fan.
Patrick February 21st, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Yankees are afraid of another Latroy Hawkins incident
——————————–
Still ridiculous how he was treated.
Still ridiculous how he was treated.
___
I always imagine it as him realizing 21 was not a good number to wear, then him going to the team and being like, ok no 21, what about 51 and them looking at each other and saying, maybe we should just trade you now…
Still ridiculous how he was treated.
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Agreed.. It still bothers me how absurd Yankee fans acted during that entire saga. Paul O’Neil was a nice player but it’s not like Hawkins went in there and demanded Babe Ruth’s number or something
ac1 February 21st, 2012 at 3:46 pm
Still ridiculous how he was treated.
___
I always imagine it as him realizing 21 was not a good number to wear, then him going to the team and being like, ok no 21, what about 51 and them looking at each other and saying, maybe we should just trade you now…
—————–
lol sounds like a sitcom.
Over under on the new blood fellas.
1. Kuroda 15 wins
2. Kuroda 4 era
3. Pineda 15 wins
4. Pineda 4 era
5. Ibanez 265 batting avg
6. Ibanez 16 homeruns
7. Ibanez still a Yank after trade deadline.
8. Chavez goes on the dl 1x this season
9. Jones has 11 homeruns
10. Who out of these players are not still a Yankee by seasons end?
—–
1. Over
2. Under
3. Under
4. Over
5. Under
6. Under
7. Nope
8. Yes
9. Over
10. Ibanez
The fans should have been outraged at the Yankees for giving it to him, not at Hawkins for requesting it. That was a low moment for Yankees fans. :/
Patrick February 21st, 2012 at 3:48 pm
Still ridiculous how he was treated.
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Agreed.. It still bothers me how absurd Yankee fans acted during that entire saga. Paul O’Neil was a nice player but it’s not like Hawkins went in there and demanded Babe Ruth’s number or something
——–
The fans were ruthless and O’neil didn’t help the situation.
Typical Stadium fans re: Hawkins. They booed Mo as well and the crowds at NYS are even more unforgiving, uninformed.
I wonder since Burnett has been traded, if Garcia will switch back to #34 (his number prior to the Yankees) and Pineda will switch to 36 (his number with the Mariners) so that Mussina’s number is left vacant once again, lol
There is a false meme in NYC that NY fans are the smartest in sports. It’s false. They are as dumb as any group of fans.
Over under on the new blood fellas.
1. Kuroda 15 wins
2. Kuroda 4 era
3. Pineda 15 wins
4. Pineda 4 era
5. Ibanez 265 batting avg
6. Ibanez 16 homeruns
7. Ibanez still a Yank after trade deadline.
8. Chavez goes on the dl 1x this season
9. Jones has 11 homeruns
10. Who out of these players are not still a Yankee by seasons end?
11. Pinedas weight by season end 270
The fans were ruthless and O’neil didn’t help the situation.
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Oh yeah I remember now, you are right, O’neill was kind of an idiot about the whole thing
I’m just thankful Cano doesn’t get booed for wearing Tino’s 24….
There is a false meme in NYC that NY fans are the smartest in sports. It’s false. They are as dumb as any group of fans.
—
All fanbases think they are the best at something. Everyone says St. Louis has the best fans, what a joke that is…
The only number that the fans should go crazy about is #45. That number should no longer exist.
1. Kuroda 15 wins- over
2. Kuroda 4 era -under
3. Pineda 15 wins -push
4. Pineda 4 era- under
5. Ibanez 265 batting avg – under
6. Ibanez 16 homeruns – under
7. Ibanez still a Yank after trade deadline.
8. Chavez goes on the dl 1x this season – no
9. Jones has 11 homeruns – over
10. Who out of these players are not still a Yankee by seasons end? – Ibanez
The only thing Yankee fans are best at is probably sitting in traffic before/after games… or boo’ing better athletes than have ever been boo’d before…
The only number that the fans should go crazy about is #45. That number should no longer exist.
—
Pavano? or Felix Heredia?
“Knicks fans are unquestionably the smartest fans in basketball.”
– Marv Albert
ac1 February 21st, 2012 at 3:44 pm
20, 21 and 51 are numbers that are going to not going to be accepted on anyone else’s uniform by any yankee fan.
-~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~-
Agree on 20 and 51 but what did Paul O’Neill do that Tino Martinez didn’t do during the championship run from 1996-2000 ?
Paulie was a good Yankee as was Tino but neither will get elected to the HOF. There should be a special bronze plaque in CF of “significant Yankees” of which there are many.
Correction
7. No
8. Yes
Pavano.
Can I add whatever Igawas number was in the minors. Not sure if it needs to be retired or burned.
yankeefeminista February 21st, 2012 at 3:50 pm
Typical Stadium fans re: Hawkins. They booed Mo as well and the crowds at NYS are even more unforgiving, uninformed.
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I feel sorry for the reliever that has to take over for Mo.
Yankee fans: http://thebiglead.fantasysport.....OUCHE1.gif
108 – He stood closer to the bleachers… probably has a lot to do with it. Probably shouldn’t… :p
Patrick February 21st, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Yankees are afraid of another Latroy Hawkins incident
——————-
Yankees (actually Yankee fans) need to just move on. 21 is either getting retired or it should be given out – this unofficial retirement of numbers is silly.
Rudy May?
Patrick,
Is the bigger fella in the back throwing f-bombs at the kid in the front row or some player on the field? Both?
It’s no coincidence that the Yanks are clearing out of Scranton altogether for the season while they de-Igawa the whole town.
Odds, depends on who it is. If it is DRob they will give him the benefit of the doubt. But let’s not forget how everyone wanted Joba to be the closer over Mo in 2007. Being at the Stadium then was brutal. Constant calls of “Joba should be closing, not Mo.” Ugh.
Is the bigger fella in the back throwing f-bombs at the kid in the front row or some player on the field? Both?
—
At the player on the field. And I’m pretty sure that player was Nelson Cruz…
Can I add that they should no longer hand out #25. It makes the player pull happy and teams
shift happy. Also drops you batting avg. about 50 points.
Patrick February 21st, 2012 at 3:58 pm
Yankee fans: http://thebiglead.fantasysport…..OUCHE1.gif
__
The guy on the left with the Yankee cap and hooded Yankee sweatshirt looks like he could be Bartolo Colon’s son.
Of this most recent group – I would say that:
2
6
13
20
42
46
51
are the ones that will be retired. Andy is really the toughest call, but I can’t see retiring Bernie and Posada and not Andy even if there was that stretch where he was in Houston.
ac1 February 21st, 2012 at 3:54 pm
I’m just thankful Cano doesn’t get booed for wearing Tino’s 24….
————————-
Good thing Cano already had some leeway with the fans.
swbyankeesTT SWB Yankees Blog
Some stats absolutely floor me. In his career as a reliever, Tim Norton has a 1.92 ERA w/ 123 Ks in 98 1/3 IP. If he could stay healthy…
GB, here’s hoping.
Over under on the new blood fellas.
1. Kuroda 15 wins
2. Kuroda 4 era
3. Pineda 15 wins
4. Pineda 4 era
5. Ibanez 265 batting avg
6. Ibanez 16 homeruns
7. Ibanez still a Yank after trade deadline.
8. Chavez goes on the dl 1x this season
9. Jones has 11 homeruns
10. Who out of these players are not still a Yankee by seasons end?
–
1.Over
2.Under
3. Under
4. Push
5. Under
6. Under
7. Under
8. Over? Push?
9. Over
10. Ibanez, don’t think they cut Jones or Kuroda and Chavez will be on the DL
Tim Norton is/can be goooood…..
notice where sabathia’s left foot lands on this video.
totally in front of his plant foot.
pineda is two feet behind on following video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfrscEwU-iM
It’s no coincidence that the Yanks are clearing out of Scranton altogether for the season while they de-Igawa the whole town.
======
NSF,
Do they give the whole team shades while they get sprayed down with the de-kei sanitizer? Making sure they dont get it in the eyes.
here’s pineda :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..re=related
he’s falling back towards cano at second base.
Pavano? or Felix Heredia?
———————————
Yes.
Cano actually wore 22 first though, until he had to give it to Roger…
Jerkface February 21st, 2012 at 4:05 pm
Over under on the new blood fellas.
1. Kuroda 15 wins – over
2. Kuroda 4 era – over
3. Pineda 15 wins – over
4. Pineda 4 era – under
5. Ibanez 265 batting avg – under
6. Ibanez 16 homeruns – over
7. Ibanez still a Yank after trade deadline. – over
8. Chavez goes on the dl 1x this season – over
9. Jones has 11 homeruns – over
10. Who out of these players are not still a Yankee by seasons end? – All
Not endorsing such a move, but if Ichiro comes at the deadline, he gets to wear #51. Supposedly he took it to honor Bernie.
sorry I mean all will still be Yankees at season’s end.
Didn’t Kuroda have 48 initially? I knew that wouldn’t last. 4 is like the WORST bad luck number for Japanese because it’s the same sound as the word for death. That was too much death in a number.
I think everyone is in agreement that the Kuroda diving is good….hopefully we don’t Jinx it…..I think at least one person needs to hate it for some balance…..where is Randy
No one wears 51 after Bernie.
At the deadline – who would you rather trade for:
Ichiro
Hunter
Carlos Lee
Carlos Quentin
1. Kuroda 15 wins – over
2. Kuroda 4 era – under
3. Pineda 15 wins – push
4. Pineda 4 era – under
5. Ibanez 265 batting avg – under
6. Ibanez 16 homeruns – under
7. Ibanez still a Yank after trade deadline. – Sadly
8. Chavez goes on the dl 1x this season – over
9. Jones has 11 homeruns – over
10. Who out of these players are not still a Yankee by seasons end? Ibanez, Chavez
No thread is complete without randy l. taking a dump all over Pineda.
No one give a phuck about your opinion of Pineda, your stories of yesteryear, or you.
m, remember learning about the number 4 when I was learning how to count in Japanese. Good point.
yankeefeminista February 21st, 2012 at 4:05 pm
GB, here’s hoping.
————————————————————————————————————————-
Norton has much in common with Chris Garcia. As much talent and ability as anybody that’s come through the systems as since Lieter and Patterson. They had everything going for them except health.
randy l. February 21st, 2012 at 4:06 pm
here’s pineda :
Actually… HERE’s Pineda…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjr1hMqtykQ
Looks like his plant spot is straight on.
notice where sabathia’s left foot lands on this video.
totally in front of his plant foot.
pineda is two feet behind on following video
—
Different pitchers have different mechanics. Shocking.
If they can stop him from landing like that what’s he gonna do… get better? What are you worried about here?
randy should post whatever he wants, just like everyone else.
Agree on 20 and 51 but what did Paul O’Neill do that Tino Martinez didn’t do during the championship run from 1996-2000 ?
Paulie was a good Yankee as was Tino but neither will get elected to the HOF. There should be a special bronze plaque in CF of “significant Yankees” of which there are many.
___
I agree but apparently it isnt acceptable to most of the fan base.
i was surprised trenton didn’t retire pavano’s #. his 16 wins in ’96 are still the franchise record he went 16-5 2.62 and led them to the EL Championship. but only tony clark and nomar’s #’s are retired by the thunder.
I don’t think the Yankees will trade for Ichiro. Maybe in 2007, when he was linked to the Yankees as his only preferred destination besides the Mariners when he was talking extension with the M’s, but not now.
Don’t think he brings enough to the team at this point. Huge ichiro fan, but that ship sailed a few years ago.
GB,
Perhaps you posted the Donnie Collins article that says Norton is good to go. Of course, he has been good to go many times, but he couldn’t go far.
I think Pineda should shock everyone and learn to throw a submarine with both feet on the rubber. Not the $5 kind.
try again pineda link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
Here’s Pineda in the bullpen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
Obviously not throwing hard, maybe he falls back like that when he overthrows the fastball?
“There should be a special bronze plaque in CF of “significant Yankees” of which there are many.”
=========================================
…there’s not enough room for that, steinbrenner’s plaque takes up all the available space (and pretty much all the oxygen) in the cave.
Guys and gals – you know I respect you all – but when you start breaking down video to check out someone’s mechanics like you’re actually scouts that’s when I think you’ve gone round the bend. None of us here are baseball scouts, none of us here will be baseball scouts…there’s a reason for that. Same reason none of us will be GMs.
Yanks should sign Ichiro next year as a reliever
Guys and gals – you know I respect you all – but when you start breaking down video to check out someone’s mechanics like you’re actually scouts that’s when I think you’ve gone round the bend. None of us here are baseball scouts, none of us here will be baseball scouts…there’s a reason for that. Same reason none of us will be GMs.
–
All of us could be baseball scouts if we really wanted to though. You’d just have to put up with making 1/10th what you do now, while travelling and living in a car. There is nothing mystical about scouting.
Ys Guy February 21st, 2012 at 3:56 pm
sos was it manny being a great cutoff outfield guy or damon being a great outfield relay guy?
======
Ys Guy,
Have to give it to Manny. The throw was a girlyman throw and he had to stretch out for it. Should have got the gold glove for cutoff man of the year.
“Yanks should sign Ichiro next year as a reliever”
Can he throw left handed?
All of us could be baseball scouts if we really wanted to though. You’d just have to put up with making 1/10th what you do now, while travelling and living in a car. There is nothing mystical about scouting.
—
And some on this blog (and other blogs/forums/whatever) have the ability to be a capable GM. But being a GM for a professional sports team isn’t exactly the easiest job market to break in to.
None of us here are baseball scouts, none of us here will be baseball scouts…there’s a reason for that. Same reason none of us will be GMs.
=======
I did stay at the Holliday Inn. That has to count for something. Also saved money on my auto insurance.
I’m all for posting whatever you want. But it’s good netiquette to put “Repost” or something similar when re-posting in a new thread.
That video must have been after Cano’s HR that almost got called back. You can see that guy has a ball in his hand.
And yes there are lots of mooks at the stadium. They are the NEW YORK Yankees after all.
I thought it had to be the Holiday Inn Express to count.
“Yanks should sign Ichiro next year as a reliever”
I’d actually think he might have a chance to be a very good manager:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne.....eech071508
I posted the Collins article, and I am hoping Norton stays healthy.
Rich, yep, everyone should post whatever they please and everyone can read or not read whatever they choose to. Censorship is never a good thing.
Broncos (for now) quarterback Brady Quinn has a couple zingers. Like this one: “If you look at it as a whole, there’s a lot of things that just don’t seem very humble to me. When I get that opportunity, I’ll continue to lead not necessarily by trying to get in front of the camera and praying but by praying with my teammates, you know?”
Rich in NJ February 21st, 2012 at 4:13 pm
randy should post whatever he wants, just like everyone else.
************
True
And everyone else who wants to enjoy Pineda and who doesn’t want to be bombed with doom-and-gloom regarding the Montero trade should skip Randy’s posts about Pineda.
“Yanks should sign Ichiro next year as a reliever”
I’d actually think he might have a chance to be a very good manager:
—
Well Ichiro thinks he would be a good pitcher which is why I posted about it
“Once I turn 40,” he says, “I can become a pitcher. I’m kind of serious about it. But I’ll have to learn to throw a knuckleball. Right now, I could be a ‘normal’ pitcher,” who can top out at 95 mph with a fastball.
Cano has worn 22 and 14. He was named for Jackie Robinson but obv can’t wear 42 which is why 24 makes sense…
“And everyone else who wants to enjoy Pineda and who doesn’t want to be bombed with doom-and-gloom regarding the Montero trade should skip Randy’s posts about Pineda.”
As yf suggested, yes.
Basically I’m a huge Ichiro fanboy and everyone else should be too
“Different pitchers have different mechanics.”
patrick-
when you watch the pineda video, doesn’t it look odd to your eye.
his right foot spins completely around so it’s landing back towards the rubber.
for this to happen, he has to have his weight heavily on the outside of his right foot. his weight is spinning to his left.
the problem i see with this is he’s all arm. it works on maximum effort pitches , but i don’t see him throwing well with finesse pitches like a change up.
the maximum effort is what creates the spin of his body. he’s going to do this on a change up? i don’t see it.
im guessing they are going to try to clean this up at some point, but that’s where the problems come in. he repeats the odd landing. he may not repeat it so well when they start tweaking him.
i’ll say it again. he looks like a flame throwing reliever who is not going to have four pitches.
Can we go after a guy that is under the age that qualifies for senior discounts this year? Next someones going to post “sign gb for dh and killer as the 4th outfielder. While Nurse Koloff takes over Marianos role at seasons end.
My guess is that Ichiro hangs ‘em up after this year.
I can’t see him signing on with a team on a one year deal just to go for the ring – something about that strikes me as very non-Ichiro. I think it would have meant something to lead the Mariners to a title but winning with the Yankees or Giants or some other team wouldn’t mean as much to him.
Again, never met the man so I’m probably speaking out of an orifice that one shouldn’t speak out of – just my interpretation of the man.
chip, where did you get that quote? quite a slam from a guy who’s done nothing in his career.
Jerkface February 21st, 2012 at 4:14 pm
“I don’t think the Yankees will trade for Ichiro. Maybe in 2007, when he was linked to the Yankees as his only preferred destination besides the Mariners when he was talking extension with the M’s, but not now.
Don’t think he brings enough to the team at this point. Huge ichiro fan, but that ship sailed a few years ago.”
~
off to a half-day meeting but, just wanted to chime in since you mentioned Ichiro – should be interesting to see how he does batting 3rd this season…
http://tinyurl.com/72nfvlp
his right foot spins completely around so it’s landing back towards the rubber.
========
Maybe hes double jointed or maybe one of the fantastic four guys.
A changeup is not a finesse pitch, you are supposed to throw it with your fastball arm motion… what are you talking about randy?
Guys and gals – you know I respect you all – but when you start breaking down video to check out someone’s mechanics like you’re actually scouts
OK, I played ball for 25 years and was a pitcher for a good part of that time, can I look at the video? Or are you suggesting that no one watching an athlete doing something could understand what they are doing without having done it before?
I don’t get it. We all speculate outside our areas of expertise… that’s why we’re here. If Yankees baseball or scouting or being a real GM was our area of expertise, why would we be posting here?
randy,
I can’t comment on Pineda’s video because I am not an expert on pitching mechanics. I was a pitcher in little league up to high school and my right shoulder still hurts so that should tell you all you need to know about how well I know mechanics. I’ll leave the analysis to you, CB, and others.
My problem is when you start comparing Pineda’s mechanics to a completely different pitcher (who pitches with the opposite arm no less). I can buy that you don’t like Pineda’s mechanics for one reason or another but to me it’s not legitimate to compare him to Sabathia.
Rich in NJ February 21st, 2012 at 4:25 pm
“And everyone else who wants to enjoy Pineda and who doesn’t want to be bombed with doom-and-gloom regarding the Montero trade should skip Randy’s posts about Pineda.”
As yf suggested, yes.
______
Enjoying Pineda and reading Randy’s posts aren’t mutually exclusive. You might find something of value in Randy’s posts while not necessarily being required to buy into his “gloom and doom,” but as you will.
Pineda takes a huge stride and transfers his weight well, he just lets the centripetal force carry his non-plant foot around instead of stopping it early. He makes use of his whole body, which some pitchers won’t do.
I have an Ichiro T-shirt. A friend picked it up for me when she visited Seattle. It’s the only non-Yankee player merchandise I’ve ever wanted.
1. Kuroda 15 wins – under
2. Kuroda 4 era – over
3. Pineda 15 wins – over
4. Pineda 4 era – under
5. Ibanez 265 batting avg – whatever’s beneath under
6. Ibanez 16 homeruns – under
7. Ibanez still a Yank after trade deadline. – not really
8. Chavez goes on the dl 1x this season – at least
9. Jones has 11 homeruns – over
10. Who out of these players are not still a Yankee by seasons end? Ibanez
11. Pinedas weight by season end 270 – over
In his bullpens he doesn’t spin back like that at all… it’s likely an unconsious thing that no one in Seattle bothered to try to stop him from doing because he was pitching well.
It will calm down as he gets older and gains more control of his body in general.
If he was all arm, he wouldn’t have so much weight swinging around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
now this video looks fine when pineda is warming up.
the problem is when he tries to throw 95 , he loses this form.
he spins severely.
i think it’s going to be a problem for him with secondary pitches
yankeefeminista February 21st, 2012 at 4:32 pm
Rich in NJ February 21st, 2012 at 4:25 pm
“And everyone else who wants to enjoy Pineda and who doesn’t want to be bombed with doom-and-gloom regarding the Montero trade should skip Randy’s posts about Pineda.”
As yf suggested, yes.
______
Enjoying Pineda and reading Randy’s posts aren’t mutually exclusive. You might find something of value in Randy’s posts while not necessarily being required to buy into his “gloom and doom,” but as you will.
*************
There’s nothing about Randy or Randy’s posts that allows you to enjoy Pineda in peace.
Ys Guy February 21st, 2012 at 4:30 pm
chip, where did you get that quote? quite a slam from a guy who’s done nothing in his career.
———–
profootballtalk.com
austinmac February 21st, 2012 at 4:14 pm
GB,
Perhaps you posted the Donnie Collins article that says Norton is good to go. Of course, he has been good to go many times, but he couldn’t go far.
————————————————————————————————————————-
Mac, I agreee that Norton probably won’t stay healthy enough to ever get to NY, but, I only put it up there because somebody asked about him last week. The last I had heard was he wasn’tdoing any better. I give him and Garcia, along with guys like Prior and Horne credit for not giving up. They keep putting themselves through the torture of rehab and the disappointment of failure. It reminds me of Jose Rios having to retire with 5 arm surgeries abd finally coming back after about 6 years of rehab.
i think it’s going to be a problem for him with secondary pitches
What if, as he works on his secondary pitches, he finds that he doesn’t need to throw 98 anymore and doesn’t have to “overthrow” the ball?
You only seem to be following his development path to one predetermined conclusion, and not even considering the things you are revealing in your own conversations.
In his bullpens he doesn’t spin back like that at all
–
I don’t think they use a full wind up in the bullpen. Kershaw and Pineda both do soft landings, then in game they whip the back leg around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
The zoomed out view you can see Kershaw whip his leg around and land behind his plant foot. They are using their whole body, so its no surprise they throw hard and are good.
Rosy, any guesses about 4-5-6 in the order?
Patrick February 21st, 2012 at 4:32 pm
randy,
I can’t comment on Pineda’s video because I am not an expert on pitching mechanics. I was a pitcher in little league up to high school and my right shoulder still hurts so that should tell you all you need to know about how well I know mechanics. I’ll leave the analysis to you, CB, and others.
My problem is when you start comparing Pineda’s mechanics to a completely different pitcher (who pitches with the opposite arm no less). I can buy that you don’t like Pineda’s mechanics for one reason or another but to me it’s not legitimate to compare him to Sabathia.
————————
Randi isn’t an expert on pitching mechanics either – it doesn’t stop him from commenting like one. So you should feel free to look at the video and say that Pineda looks perfect to you.
How are you people “enjoying” Pineda? Are you like.. thinking about him pitching as a Yankee? If so, does randy perform inception on you and replace all of your Pineda daydreams with images of busted pitching prospects and Daniel Cabrera? If you don’t like what randy says just ignore it…
I think Pineda will be good, not sure how good yet though.
Irreverent Discourse February 21st, 2012 at 4:36 pm
i think it’s going to be a problem for him with secondary pitches
What if, as he works on his secondary pitches, he finds that he doesn’t need to throw 98 anymore and doesn’t have to “overthrow” the ball?
You only seem to be following his development path to one predetermined conclusion, and not even considering the things you are revealing in your own conversations.
——————–
Just out of curiosity – why are you giving this loon the satisfaction of letting himself think that he knows what he’s talking about when it comes to Pineda’s mechanics?
So you should feel free to look at the video and say that Pineda looks perfect to you.
–
Pineda throws like Kershaw, and I like Kershaw. So there we go. There is nothing anywhere that suggests what Pineda is doing is bad. The spin comes after he releases the ball, and he has already shown to have good control using this method. Randy himself has said he will make stuff up that sounds good to try and influence arguments, and this is another case, clearly.
“If he was all arm, he wouldn’t have so much weight swinging around.”
read between the lines
use your imagination a little
the heavy use of the arms is what makes the inverted “W” according to some pitching “experts”
i think the problem is it’s obvious to anyone ho watches pineda for a whole start that he is a let it fly guy.
because he has command of his 93-94 stuff doesn’t mean he’ll have command of everything else.
sometimes maximum effort is consistent because it’s the same maximum effort all the time.
jerkface- yes, but i think it also means that he’s not relying on that spin for control, and can merely be a result of over-throwing that fastball a little.
They can calm it down, I see no reason it should be a detriment. You would think after seeing someone like Lincecum throw that people would be a little more open to different pitching mechanics. So long as they are smooth and under control, they are not necessarily harmful.
You go with what works for your body, and adjust from there. You don’t start at some predetermined “pitching form”. You go with what works for you.
“randy should post whatever he wants, just like everyone else.”
We should all encourage randy to diversify his wants.
Randi isn’t an expert on pitching mechanics either – it doesn’t stop him from commenting like one. So you should feel free to look at the video and say that Pineda looks perfect to you.
—-
Haha well I am not that kind of person. I don’t mind if randy or others want to comment though..
in randy’s totally negative posts about that pineda start last 9/3 he had not one good thing to say about him, unless you count the backhanded compliment that ‘he might become a closer’
from reading it the first time, i thought pineda must’ve left in the 3rd trailing 9-0, but in fact, he had given up 3 runs on 5 hits in 6 innings. consider also that it was not only his rookie year in the majors but also that he was already 20 innings past his previous career high at that point in the season. and from that, randy had not one single positive thing to say about his pitching. not one.
nice objective reporting there randy…
Chip – Sheer boredom?
I don’t believe he has no idea what he’s talking about though. I think he just made his conclusions before examining the evidence. His ideas are generally sound, his ability to draw logical conclusions from them are lacking though.
“The spin comes after he releases the ball”
actually, the spin is already there in the landing.
the weight is already off balance in the left foot which is what makes the spin happen.
Patrick February 21st, 2012 at 4:37 pm
How are you people “enjoying” Pineda? Are you like.. thinking about him pitching as a Yankee? If so, does randy perform inception on you and replace all of your Pineda daydreams with images of busted pitching prospects and Daniel Cabrera? If you don’t like what randy says just ignore it…
I think Pineda will be good, not sure how good yet though.
————-
I go the other way with it – I think Pineda will be the best young pitcher the Yankees have had since Gator.
And I think that Montero will be a good hitter – but it wouldn’t bother me at all if he turned into Jeff Clement.
randy l. February 21st, 2012 at 4:41 pm
“The spin comes after he releases the ball”
actually, the spin is already there in the landing.
the weight is already off balance in the left foot which is what makes the spin happen.
Actually no, no it isn’t.
Not at all.
This is exactly why he warms up the way he does in the bullpen. To stop the rotation from happening as he lands. I would think since the bullpen was the epitome of your career, you would know that.
oh, by the way,
i’ll be responding to about ten people on this blog.
the rest of you can go f yourself
Irreverent Discourse February 21st, 2012 at 4:40 pm
his ability to draw logical conclusions from them are lacking though.
—————–
Probably should have his mom’s basement checked for mold.
You can respond to whoever you like. I will never stop correcting you.
randy l. February 21st, 2012 at 4:43 pm
oh, by the way,
i’ll be responding to about ten people on this blog.
the rest of you can go f yourself
——————
Randy,
If I could go f myself I would have saved a lot of money on dating and a wedding
I go the other way with it – I think Pineda will be the best young pitcher the Yankees have had since Gator.
And I think that Montero will be a good hitter – but it wouldn’t bother me at all if he turned into Jeff Clement.
—
Ahh that’s being a little harsh on Montero. I hope both players end up hitting their ceiling. If Pineda truly becomes an ace he will be a force along with CC for the Yanks. And I like Montero so I hope he becomes the type of hitter many of us think he can be – it would be a lot of fun to watch regardless of your allegiances.
Think of what Cashman could accomplish if he could f himself.
The possibilities are astounding.
The most important aspect of a delivery with relation to both performance and injury prevention is repetition of whatever the delivery is IMO…..
No thoughts on Clayton Kershaw using the same method, Randy?
He is putting his entire body into his pitches, unsurprising his throws hard and has a sharp breaking slider. The force is transferring forward through him and he re-directs it around to siphon it off. Pretty smart by Pineda. No wonder he has good control.
Patrick February 21st, 2012 at 4:45 pm
I go the other way with it – I think Pineda will be the best young pitcher the Yankees have had since Gator.
And I think that Montero will be a good hitter – but it wouldn’t bother me at all if he turned into Jeff Clement.
—
Ahh that’s being a little harsh on Montero. I hope both players end up hitting their ceiling. If Pineda truly becomes an ace he will be a force along with CC for the Yanks. And I like Montero so I hope he becomes the type of hitter many of us think he can be – it would be a lot of fun to watch regardless of your allegiances.
——————
I’m just saying Montero’s not a Yankee anymore – I hope he doesn’t suffer an injury or anything, but do I care what kind of career he has – eh, not really.
Much like I never cared if Giambi was killing himself with steroids – but it ticked me off something fierce that he stopped using them after he got to the Yankees.
Think of what Cashman could accomplish if he could f himself.
The possibilities are astounding.
—
I guess he wouldn’t “embarrass his wife and kids” as randy puts it lol
Oh that said – I would still have traded for Giambi instead of signing Ibanez.
Chip February 21st, 2012 at 4:24 pm
Broncos (for now) quarterback Brady Quinn has a couple zingers. Like this one: “If you look at it as a whole, there’s a lot of things that just don’t seem very humble to me. When I get that opportunity, I’ll continue to lead not necessarily by trying to get in front of the camera and praying but by praying with my teammates, you know?”
——————————–
Quinn is just bitter
Patrick February 21st, 2012 at 4:47 pm
Think of what Cashman could accomplish if he could f himself.
The possibilities are astounding.
—
I guess he wouldn’t “embarrass his wife and kids” as randy puts it lol
———–
Worse – imagine what kind of trouble David Cone could have gotten into in the bullpen
Against All Odds February 21st, 2012 at 4:48 pm
Chip February 21st, 2012 at 4:24 pm
Broncos (for now) quarterback Brady Quinn has a couple zingers. Like this one: “If you look at it as a whole, there’s a lot of things that just don’t seem very humble to me. When I get that opportunity, I’ll continue to lead not necessarily by trying to get in front of the camera and praying but by praying with my teammates, you know?”
——————————–
Quinn is just bitter
————–
I would be too if I was Quinn. The guy is no Montana but he’s still more talented on his worst day than Tebow on his best.
Chip – I literally just laughed out loud. Now I have to quietly sneak out of my office :p
Irreverent Discourse February 21st, 2012 at 4:49 pm
Chip – I literally just laughed out loud. Now I have to quietly sneak out of my office :p
———–
Hopefully not to pull a David Cone.
Worse – imagine what kind of trouble David Cone could have gotten into in the bullpen
—
Haha true.. well keeping with the Yankee way, Diego Moreno (the reliever the Yanks got back in the Burnett deal) was suspended in 2010 for making out with a fan in the bullpen.
2 Things…
1. I think Jones should be praised and applauded for voluntarily giving up his number to Kuroda. That’s really a great way for a new player to be welcomed to the team. And especially when there could be real cultural value in it. (I now Kuroda said it wasn’t necessary, but that’s just a plus for him to be so gracious about it.) BOTTOM LINE- Shows positive character in both of these guys and that makes me proud to be a Yankees fan!!
2. About numbers being retired- officially, and unofficially- This is just a proposal, but I think it is kind of intriguing… Why not allow some of the retired numbers to be reused, BUT with an acknowledgment to the honored player. For example, a player would wear “3″ and the phrase “Remembering Babe Ruth” or “Honoring Babe Ruth” would be printed below the number. Or maybe a clean pencil-graphic image of the Babe. I think it would be absolutely too cool to have that reminder of the Babe every time that the new player wearing the number came to the plate. OF COURSE, the player honored by being allowed to wear Babe’s number would have to meet some strict criteria before being so honored.
… I know.. lot’s of questions and issues, but still, I think it’s an intriguing idea!!
Thoughts??
Diego Moreno (the reliever the Yanks got back in the Burnett deal) was suspended in 2010 for making out with a fan in the bullpen.
I will pass judgement on this until I see pics of the fan.
re: Uniform numbers ………………………
http://www.ultimateyankees.com/jerseynumbers.htm
* No Virgil Tucks under No. 21. The longtime Detroit Tiger was Virgil “Fire” Trucks.
And of course since then he has taken back what he said
“The comments attributed to me in a recent magazine article are in NO WAY reflective of my opinion of Tim and the Broncos. Tim deserves a lot of credit for our success and I’m happy for him and what he accomplished. Most importantly, he is a great teammate. That interview was conducted three months ago, and the resulting story was a completely inaccurate portrayal of my comments. I have addressed my disappointment with the writer and have reached out to Tim to clear this up. I apologize to anyone who feels I was trying to take anything away from our Team’s or Tim’s success this season.”
http://twitter.com/#!/bq9
“I would be too if I was Quinn. The guy is no Montana but he’s still more talented on his worst day than Tebow on his best.”
================================
what has quinn done? and on top of that, what does it say about a leader (the qb) to slam his teammate like that? it shows me exactly why he is not actually the leader of that team. im no tebow lover but from what i hear, he’s out doing two-a-days to get himself better while his teammate is mouthing off to the press about why he should be the starter.
i think i know who’s going to win that battle.
“I would be too if I was Quinn. The guy is no Montana but he’s still more talented on his worst day than Tebow on his best”
Problem is Tebow is a better football player than him…..which is what matters.
Patrick February 21st, 2012 at 4:52 pm
Worse – imagine what kind of trouble David Cone could have gotten into in the bullpen
—
Haha true.. well keeping with the Yankee way, Diego Moreno (the reliever the Yanks got back in the Burnett deal) was suspended in 2010 for making out with a fan in the bullpen.
———–
Wasn’t it his girlfriend?
what’s missing from this team is some young blood to infuse some energy. the guys like cano + swisher are now 2 years older from 2009. we need to find an everyday player that can bring that energy in the clubhouse and get folks excited. we are bit uptight and businesslike. we need some fun. i think that will translate big time in the postseason.
Irreverent Discourse February 21st, 2012 at 4:53 pm
Diego Moreno (the reliever the Yanks got back in the Burnett deal) was suspended in 2010 for making out with a fan in the bullpen.
I will pass judgement on this until I see pics of the fan.
——————
Didn’t Strawberry once diddle a fan in the bullpen?
Chip February 21st, 2012 at 4:49 pm
Against All Odds February 21st, 2012 at 4:48 pm
Chip February 21st, 2012 at 4:24 pm
Broncos (for now) quarterback Brady Quinn has a couple zingers. Like this one: “If you look at it as a whole, there’s a lot of things that just don’t seem very humble to me. When I get that opportunity, I’ll continue to lead not necessarily by trying to get in front of the camera and praying but by praying with my teammates, you know?”
——————————–
Quinn is just bitter
————–
I would be too if I was Quinn. The guy is no Montana but he’s still more talented on his worst day than Tebow on his best.
———————–
You sure we’re talking about the same Brady Quinn?? He had hype coming out of ND. Quinn was giving a shot with the first team in pre season and didn’t do well. Tebow is not great and many of his games were ugly but when he was given the opportunity he ran with it.
how come guys say, “the resulting story was a completely inaccurate portrayal of my comments.” instead of ‘i never said that’?
i’ll tell you why, because he said it into a recorder and if he flat out says he never said it, he or she will produce the recording of him saying it.
“Well Ichiro thinks he would be a good pitcher … ”
GUARANTEED: Ichiro was just joking around. He’s been known to do that.
Ys Guy February 21st, 2012 at 4:54 pm
“I would be too if I was Quinn. The guy is no Montana but he’s still more talented on his worst day than Tebow on his best.”
================================
what has quinn done? and on top of that, what does it say about a leader (the qb) to slam his teammate like that? it shows me exactly why he is not actually the leader of that team. im no tebow lover but from what i hear, he’s out doing two-a-days to get himself better while his teammate is mouthing off to the press about why he should be the starter.
i think i know who’s going to win that battle.
—————
I have no love for Quinn – I just think he probably sees it as he lost his shot to a really good marketing strategy rather than losing out to a better QB.
Tebow’s style wins him points with the fans, the fans were clamoring for him and the Broncos gave the fans what they wanted.
What slows the changeup down is the grip.More fingers on the ball.
You throw it just like a fb.
what has quinn done?
====================
Beat Army a couple of times, beat BC zero times and was thrashed in 3 consecutive bowl games.
wait…chip…tebow actually WON. it’s not about marketing, its about WINNING. tebow WINS, what does quinn bring to the table?
Let me get this straight they’re supposed to write “honoring babe Ruth” on the lower back of the uniform?
Sorry geek but that sounds like a pretty horrible idea.
…i always forget to look at the style points part of an nfl scorboard…
Speaking of bullpens, what’s this about the Pirates pitcher we got lip-locking with a fan from the bullpen or something?
What slows the changeup down is the grip.More fingers on the ball.
You throw it just like a fb.
–
The finesse part comes from grip and aiming it, which Pineda has shown he can already do with his slider and fastball. Don’t let Randy know this though. He thinks the leg whip makes it physically impossible for Pineda to learn a new grip.
I agree on the comment about obsessive blog post scouts breaking video down frame-by-frame.
It’s not mystical but it’s not that simple either. If it was as simple as some see it, then more all-stars would come from the first 2 rounds of the draft, and every guy like Brett Gardner would have quit baseball after college & gotten a regular job.
There have been posters in the past who could have been scouts but that would be few.
Not sure why this is even a conversation on a Yankee blog.. but Tebow is a better quarterback than Quinn. How is this even a question? Quinn has, what, 3 career wins? He couldn’t start at quarterback for the CLEVELAND BROWNS
At least Tebow wins games
Speaking of bullpens, what’s this about the Pirates pitcher we got lip-locking with a fan from the bullpen or something?
–
Moreno, who might actually be something if he does well this year, kissed a fan in the bullpen. Got suspended for a week! A week!
Mantle got his number retired for getting a blowie under the bullpen!
randy is probably a better quarterback than tebow.
the denver defense won a lot of games. tebow happened to be playing QB at the time.
It’s not mystical but it’s not that simple either. If it was as simple as some see it, then more all-stars would come from the first 2 rounds of the draft, and every guy like Brett Gardner would have quit baseball after college & gotten a regular job.
–
This assumes that merely having tools / talent / proper mechanics = success, which we all know is far from the truth. Obviously scouts like Gardner’s speed and plate discipline, which isn’t mechanics related
jerkface – Speed is very mechanics related
Florida just happened to win a bunch of games while Tebow was there too…..man that kid must be really lucky.
A changeup is not as hard as you think to master.
A circle change might be a little more difficult for some pitchers.
Imo,the circle change is what hughes might have struggled with,or still is.
A 3 finger change might be easier for a lot of pitchers.
It is more of a naturally formed circle that is created.
Abreu has demanded to be played or traded from the Angels.
if tebow didn’t cross himself and thank jesus, he wouldnt get half the hate he gets. he doesnt deserve any of it. and im an atheist.
its about winning. they had the same defense before tebow started, but with him at qb that won. thats what counts. tebow gets that. quinn cries to reporters.
Jerkface February 21st, 2012 at 4:46 pm
No thoughts on Clayton Kershaw using the same method, Randy?
He is putting his entire body into his pitches, unsurprising his throws hard and has a sharp breaking slider. The force is transferring forward through him and he re-directs it around to siphon it off. Pretty smart by Pineda. No wonder he has good control.
—
Maybe you are in the “go f yourself” section, JF.
It’s the section without the padded walls.
Where was that defense with Orton? Tebow did get lucky in certain games last yr but the kid played a role in winning those games
the denver defense won a lot of games. tebow happened to be playing QB at the time.
===============================
Lot of things went his way. Weak schedule, strong defense, etc. He did make some plays when he needed to and you have to give him some credit for that, but unless he improves considerably, there isn’t much staying power, IMO.
randy is probably a better quarterback than tebow.
the denver defense won a lot of games. tebow happened to be playing QB at the time.
—
randy and Quinn might be better passers than Tebow but Tebow has more success at the QB position. Quinn is…. really bad…. Tebow started at QB for a playoff team
blake – Tebow was a great college quarterback, because scrambling QB’s dominate in college due to the lack of blocking and tackling. They don’t in the pro’s because of those same reasons in reverse. He helped Denver win their games, as almost any QB in the league probably could have.
The only reason they were still able to come back in the 4th so many times is because the their defense was completely shutting down other offenses and the 3 quarters that Tebow was terrible for instead of Johny Unitas wasn’t losing them the game.
Mantle got his number retired for getting a blowie under the bullpen
——————-
Are you referring to that questionnaire? I thought that was supposed to be a joke but I kind of believe it. Too bad he embarrassed his wife and kids the way he did. He and Cash would have gotten along great.
@Bronx Jeers- “Let me get this straight they’re supposed to write “honoring babe Ruth” on the lower back of the uniform?
Sorry geek but that sounds like a pretty horrible idea.”
====
Well, I’m curious, what exactly are you saying is a “horrible idea”? Choose one of the following…
a. honoring The Babe
b. putting extra text on the uniform
c. it wouldn’t even be visible if it was on the lower back
d. something else – please tell me what? _________
I’d love to hear your feedback…
patrick -can’t disagree, tebow does have success
I just don’t attribute it directly to him last season.
quinn cries to reporters.
———————–
and the says “That interview was conducted three months ago, and the resulting story was a completely inaccurate portrayal of my comments.”
AAO – Denver’s defense was playing considerably different from week 6 or 7 on. I don’t know specifically why because I didn’t want much Broncos this year.
First injury of camp. Kontos suffered an oblique pull during his bullpen session today and is out at least a couple of weeks
and the 3 quarters that Tebow was terrible
——————————–
He was can’t deny that.
OK, as much as i hate offtopic stuff… not end today on Montero/Pineda was a blessing
Catch you all tomorrow.
‘He helped Denver win their games, as almost any QB in the league probably could have.”
Except that they didn’t…..was it a coincidence that his teammates started playing better when he took over? I don’t know his long he can stick at QB in the NFL…..nut he’s got some special intangibles that do matter IMO.
Sounds like Moreno has had more success in the bullpen than in AA.
Irreverent Discourse February 21st, 2012 at 5:13 pm
AAO – Denver’s defense was playing considerably different from week 6 or 7 on. I don’t know specifically why because I didn’t want much Broncos this year.
————————–
Maybe Tebow inspired them
patrick -can’t disagree, tebow does have success I just don’t attribute it directly to him last season.
—
You are correct… but even the minimal amount Tebow contributed to the Broncos’ success is more than Quinn has done. That one TD pass in overtime puts him ahead of Quinn in my book.
aao, thats what everybody says when embarrasing quotes come out. does he say anywhere that he never said those things? no he tries to put it off as an ‘inacurate portrayal” how is it a portrayal when it’s in quotes. he said it and he’s trying to deny it without actually denying it because he knows there is audio.
Must say I enjoyed the admission by Randy last thread that all his Pineda conclusions the last month up until last night were based on a “glimpse”. This fits his profile as someone who in the heat of the moment doesn’t even realize how his latest “point” undermines all his previous ones.
And on that note, can’t we just all assume Randy, like everyone else here, has the absolute right to post and post whatever he likes, and the issue will never be that he should not, but that he should post better.
That said, the tell-tale part of this story is the obvious desire to rush to judgment. The utterly transparent effort to qualify this player right now, at 23, after this first season as a MLer, before he’s ever thrown at pitch as a Yankee, under Larry Rothchild.
Where’s the fire Randy? This is NOT someone voicing a doubt and wanting to discuss it with peers and valuing their feedback.
This is a campaign to defiantly convince people he claims to have no respect for that he’s right, which doesn’t make sense in of itself on principle, but makes less sense in February.
This is not someone satisfied with the strength of his own convictions. This is someone in need of attention.
From 2010
“He’ll be able to use it against anyone,” said an AL scout in attendance to see Pineda’s start Monday night. “If you locate that thing, it’s nearly hit proof.”
Currently, on the 20-80 scouting scale, I would rank Pineda’s tool box as follows:
Fastball — 75
Slider — 55
Changeup — 45
Cutter — 40
Control/Command — 65
Delivery/Mechanics — 60
You can see how far he’s come from having three average-ish pitches and a track record of injury — leaps and bounds. In Keith Law’s updated Top 25 prospect list Pineda ranked at No. 25. Since those were published, Pineda has roared on, shown a much better slider — Navarro says “the slider is getting better and better … might be his best pitch …” — and has pounded the strike zone with everything, even flashing a 50 or 55 changeup at times.
well put stuckey. i generally disagree with alot of randy’s opinions, but most are pretty reasoned and in the past i’ve always valued his perspective. but on this, he’s off the map, and to make things worse, he just won’t stop, he’s incessent.
how could you review a 3 run 5 hit performance by a rookie 20 innings past his previous high and have not one single good thing to say about it?
Ys Guy February 21st, 2012 at 5:16 pm
aao, thats what everybody says when embarrasing quotes come out. does he say anywhere that he never said those things? no he tries to put it off as an ‘inacurate portrayal” how is it a portrayal when it’s in quotes. he said it and he’s trying to deny it without actually denying it because he knows there is audio.
—————————-
Exactly didn’t take long for him to try and clear up what he said huh. He probably caught some heat when the story came out.
I just don’t get the absolute need to be right all the time.
I wan’t with every fiber of my being for pineda to be great,and montero to have a very good career.
Being upset about a trade is one thing,but speeking in absolute terms about a future we can’t possibly know anything about is strange.
Pineda already has a killer fb,and slider.
He also knows how to throw a changeup,and cutter,maybe more pitches.
He just needs to make the changeup a better pitch for him,especially against lh hitters.
If he can ever master a changeup,and stay healthy,there is no way we lose in this trade.
Might be even,or close.
“No thoughts on Clayton Kershaw using the same method, Randy?”
jerkface-
i’ll check it out.
jerkface-
kershaw’s left foot looks like it’s side ways to his landing foot.
similar to sabathia.
pineda is almost two feet backwards from that.
it’s the extent he does it that’s weird looking.
now maybe it might work or at least work for some pitches, but it’s not a pretty delivery.
imagine what would cause kershaw or sabathia to continue with the left foot another two feet out towards shortstop. it ‘s a further spin and rotation that nether have .
that’s what pineda does when pitching in a game.
When someone speaks with bias on a topic because of emotion, and not fact or reasoning…you can ignore that person on that subject.
Guess who has a short temper and no sense of humor over “Valentine invented “The Wrap”?
PeteAbe Pete Abraham
Wrap jokes are so November. Try and keep up // RT @PaulWBorresch: @PeteAbe yeah so what?! did he say what kinda of wrap Buchholz likes?
I predict after spring training Chris Dickerson will be the starting right feider ………. for the Red Sox