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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Hughes looking better so far

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 22, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Hard to compare today’s Phil Hughes to the one we saw a year ago. He’s in noticeably better shape, but how much of a difference does that make? How much of last year’s struggles were strictly because of that shoulder injury that went undiagnosed for so long? How much can you learn from some early bullpen sessions with not hitters in the box?

“I think his curveball has been a little bit more crisp,” Joe Girardi said today. “I think there’s more arm speed there. I think the ball’s coming out better. We’re gonna truly find out when the games start, but it just looks like he’s throwing the ball better this spring than last year at this time… He was hurt last year and that didn’t help. I can’t tell you what I attribute it to, but we know that (better condition) can’t hurt.”

With no bench spots available, the lineup pretty much decided and only one job up for grabs in the bullpen, the fifth starter competition is easily the most compelling decision of the spring. There will be plenty of curiosity about Michael Pineda, and it will be interesting to see Dave Robertson and Rafael Soriano make their cases for the eighth inning, and Raul Ibanez is a new face for everyone to meet. But this year’s ongoing storyline will be at the back of the rotation.

I’ve written before that, in the big picture, the Yankees best-case scenario is to have Hughes grab that spot and never let go. He’s still pretty young with considerable talent, and the Yankees would be better off having him win a rotation spot for the next decade rather than have Freddy Garcia return for another one-year cameo.

But Hughes has to earn it. In some ways, Garcia is the safer pick. He’s a veteran coming off a strong season, and he’s proven that he knows how to get outs with his less-than-overpowering stuff. It’s up to Hughes to prove that he can do it better, for this year and next.

Associated Press photo

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268 Responses to “Hughes looking better so far”

  1. Pat M. February 22nd, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    Young Master Hughes is back…..

  2. Benny Blanco February 22nd, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    I look for Hughes to make a “Hughes” difference.

  3. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    The Yankees can sign both Cain and Melky or Cain and Upton and fall under in 2014

    2014

    Derek Jeter-ss (8 player option)
    Granderson-cf (17)
    Robinson Cano-2b (22)
    Alex Rodriguez-dh (27.5)
    Mark Teixeira-1b (22.5)
    BJ Upton/Melky-lf (10-12)
    Austin Romine-c (.5)
    Eduardo Nunez-3b (1)
    Trade-rf

    Bench (4.5 in 2011)

    CC Sabathia-lhp (23)
    Matt Cain (20)
    Michael Pineda-rhp (3.5)
    Ivan Nova-rhp (3.5)
    Manny Banuelos-lhp (.5)

    David Robertson (8)
    Joba Chamberlain (6)
    Dellin Betances (.5)
    Diego Moreno (.5)
    Warren (.5)
    Phelps (.5)
    Mitchell (.5)

    Other middle reliever candidates
    Marshall
    Stoneburner
    Campos

    Total = 182

    $7 million for RF

    Trade assets:

    Phil Hughes-sp
    Russell Martin-c
    Brett Gardner-cf

    Prospects for promotion or trade

    M. Williams
    R. Santana
    G. Sanchez
    Dante Bichette Jr.
    JR Murphy
    Heathcott

  4. Giuseppe Franco February 22nd, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    Bret just simply doesn’t understand three very important things pertaining to the 2013 season.

    A.) They have no intention of signing Melky Cabrera to be their starting right fielder

    B.) They also have no intention of signing BJ Upton

    C.) They traded for Pineda because they don’t want to spend $100M+ on either Hamels or Cain

  5. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Bret,

    You have zero lefties in the pen and an unrealistic premise for 3b, C, and LF.

  6. CashmanSUX February 22nd, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    ” it will be interesting to see Dave Robertson and Rafael Soriano make their cases for the eighth inning.”
    ==================================
    If David Robertson STILL has to “make his case” to be the setup man to Rivera, something is horribly wrong with the decision-makers in this organization.

  7. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    The argument is not about what they will do it’s about what they CAN do. Fans like to say they can’t afford Cain or Hamels. They CAN. They can afford BOTH one of the big pitchers and one of the big OF in 2013 and still fall under in 2014. Will they? Who knows? Can they? yes. Cost should never be used as an argument about those players and fans here use it all the time. That’s the roster. Those are the numbers. So argue the numbers if you think you have a case for cost. You don’t really.

  8. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Bret,

    You have zero lefties in the pen and an unrealistic premise for 3b, C, and LF.

    *********

    Eduardo Nunez is realistic. Romine is realistic. Upton/Cabrera is realistic. Plenty of ammunition to make it work if one or more is not.

  9. CashmanSUX February 22nd, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Say what you will about Detroit, but they have starting pitching that is more than capable of being overpowering (kinda important in the playoffs), a domination closer, a video game lineup, and their division is a walk-over.

    That’s not a bad place to start.

  10. Giuseppe Franco February 22nd, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    So you’re saying Upton and/or Melky qualify as a BIG outfielder?

    I doubt the Yanks will feel that way.

    The Yanks CAN afford anyone they want. The problem is the owners have chosen to spend much less so that they don’t get clobbered with the luxury tax.

  11. Benny Blanco February 22nd, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Brett, if Hughes turns it around I don’t want to trade him.

  12. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    Ok, Bret, I agree. The Yankees can stay under 189 if they run out 4-5 below league average players and fill their bullpen with starting pitchers.

  13. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    Eduardo Nunez has ML experience. Austin Romine is near ML ready. But these guys won’t be ready if both given two more full seasons?

    I don’t see it.

  14. GreenBeret7 February 22nd, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    Detroit has one exceptional starter to go with one pitcher that has had one very good season to go with a very disappointing pitcher and one that tends to be some what erratic. Who’s the 5th starter? A rookie? Video game offense that consists of 2 top of the line hitters and two more that can be really good if they continue from last year. A shirtstop and 2nd baseman that have trouble hitting their weight and a left and center fielder that you don’t know what you’ll get. Their defense on the infield will give that rotation a lot of sleepless nights. They have quite a lot to overcome.

  15. GreenBeret7 February 22nd, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    ***A shortstop and 2nd baseman***

  16. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    Eduardo Nunez has ML experience. Austin Romine is near ML ready. But these guys won’t be ready if both given two more full seasons?


    Romine hasn’t proven he can hit at AA, let alone AAA or the majors and his defense is still only projected to be above average, it ain’t there yet. Its more likely they sign Martin 7-10 mil a year or one of the other FA catchers. Nunez was significantly below average with the bat last year, and I find it incredibly pie in the sky to think the Yankees will let him sit at third for an entire season given his defense and bat.

  17. pat February 22nd, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    Buster_ESPN
    Would love to hear from pitchers who follow, like @SippTony or @gehrig38 or @DHuddy41 How did you learn grip of your best secondary pitch?

    gehrig38
    @Buster_ESPN@dhuddy41 fingers on seams=95mph fstball fingers on opposite sides ball=80mph forkball, simple math exercise from there

    Schilling makes this developing additional pitches thing sound easy. :wink:

  18. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    eh, the rest of that team is killer. Eduardo Nunez will be just fine by 2014, same with Austin Romine. Martin can be dealt if signed long term. Romine has 2 full years. And again, this is just one path to 2014 that includes Cain/Hamels and Upton/Melky. This is just one I picked. If you want to think up your own, feel free…but don’t argue it can’t be done. It CAN.

  19. GreenBeret7 February 22nd, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    Cashman and Sabathia on Pineda.

    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....69409-1038

  20. GreenBeret7 February 22nd, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    pat February 22nd, 2012 at 7:30 pm
    Buster_ESPN
    Would love to hear from pitchers who follow, like @SippTony or @gehrig38 or @DHuddy41 How did you learn grip of your best secondary pitch?

    gehrig38
    @Buster_ESPN@dhuddy41 fingers on seams=95mph fstball fingers on opposite sides ball=80mph forkball, simple math exercise from there

    Schilling makes this developing additional pitches thing sound easy.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    I’ve heard that you can’t learn new pitches in the majors and you need to go back to AAA or lower to get it right.

  21. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 7:48 pm

    It CAN.

    If you want to field a worse team than the Yankees are used to fielding, yes. No one said this wasn’t possible. You’re punting Catcher & 3B at this point, spending 12 million on BJ upton or Melky Cabrera, and a bullpen with no lefties full of all of our minor league starting talent that we ought to be trading or using for the rotation and you have no RFer.

    Its easy to make a team fit a budget when you have a mystery and assume league minimum for a great portion of it.

    Think about that team and then think about how we were supposed to be running out a cost controlled rotation of Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, CC, whatever by now.

  22. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    For the Yankees to run a starting catcher of Romine in 2014 they would have to roll with Romine in 2013. Since this is highly unlikely (it would be a tremendous best case scenario of Romine reaching his ceiling immediately), it is unsafe to assume Romine @ starting C for 2014. Expect Yadier Molina, Miguel Montero, or Russel Martin to be manning the position.

  23. blake February 22nd, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    JF,

    I will try again.

    Video of the Yankees newest outfield addition.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN6rjLcpBnI

  24. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    I’m fine with the bulk of that lineup – it’s the same as we have now.

    The exact same.

    Granderson-Cano-Arod-Tex-Melky or Upton in place of Swisher + the RF could be very good if Gardner + Hughes have trade value.

    The main difference is Eduardo Nunez and Austin Romine. 2014 is a long ways away to prepare them for full time duties.

    And the rotation is incredible with a 1-2 of CC and Cain.

    And the farm system is still entirely in tact so if you want to make upgrades somewhere, say to catcher (Romine) or 3b (Nunez) you have a full farm to deal from.

    Prospects for promotion or trade

    M. Williams
    R. Santana
    G. Sanchez
    Dante Bichette Jr.
    JR Murphy
    Heathcott
    DePaula

    You can add Nunez and Romine if you fancy.

  25. GreenBeret7 February 22nd, 2012 at 8:01 pm

    For those that underestimate Romine’s bat, you’re making a huge mistake. He’ll not he a masher in the Montero sense, but, he can hit and he has power enough for 15-20 homers and 30 plus doubles a year. He’s also athletice enough to play multiple positions.

  26. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    No one is underestimating his upside.

  27. blake February 22nd, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    “but, he can hit and he has power enough for 15-20 homers and 30 plus doubles a year. He’s also athletice enough to play multiple positions.”

    that would make him one of the best catchers in baseball assuming good defense.

  28. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:04 pm

    And Gardner is not free. RAB has him at 7 million in 2014. But if you want him in there, feel free. Either way, you can sign Matt Cain or Cole Hamels.

    Will they? dunno

    Can they and still stay under in 2014? yup

  29. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 8:04 pm

    2014 is a long ways away to prepare them for full time duties.

    Except you need to have 2013 inbetween, and Martin is a free agent after this season so what is happening there for 2013? Where is Nunez getting the playing time to become a full time regular at third?

  30. blake February 22nd, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm
    Oswalt could make decision by tomorrow on his next team according to a source..should be a busy rest of the week w/ Braun, expanded playoffs

    about time

  31. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    Can they and still stay under in 2014? yup

    Can they? Yes, if they punt catcher and third base and RF. Don’t forget to save 6 million in case A-rod is threatening one of his milestones.

  32. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    In 2013 Martin starts, in the first year of his contract, Romine is the backup in MLB all year or 1/2 the year, taking Cervelli’s place at some point. So Romine has all year in AAA in 2012 and all year as the backup in 2013 or 1/2 the year full time in Scranton and half as backup in 2013. This is not rocket science here… Martin can be dealt unless they overpay him. If he prices himself out, so be it. Romine starts in 2013, a year ahead of this scenario. The rest of that lineup can pick him up no problem and the staff with CC-Cain or CC-Hamels is devastating.

  33. blake February 22nd, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    The Yanks best shot at remaining competitive and under the 189 cap is for their young pitching to be good….if it is then it’ll balance out some of the big contracts in the lineup and also hopefully allow them some flexibility to add to the offense where they need to.

    It would really help if they could acquire a good cost controlled hitter somehow with their pitching depth….but those aren’t available much anymore.

  34. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    Romine and Nunez are not a punt. If you want upgrades there package them with some prospects if that’s your fancy.

    6 million for Arod?

    I’d deal Joba at the deadline if that’s an issue.

    6 mil right there.

    Oh…the possibilities.

  35. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 8:12 pm

    You’d have to trade more than that, because you’ve already paid half of Joba’s 6 million. Of course its very easy when you assume the Yankees will just trade everyone midseason or after the 1st year of a contract on a player they like.

  36. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    And how is the RF a punt if you have 7 million for him plus trade assets like Hughes + Gardner? Gardner alone is projected at 7 million in 2014 by RAB. No punt there.

    So we’re down to the nitty gritty.

    We’re down to your real issue.

    Eduardo Nunez and Austin Romine.

    But I’ve listed plenty of prospects there to package with those guys for an upgrade at 3b or catcher.

    Basically if you rule out Cain/Hamels, you really are imagining worst case scenario.

  37. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    You have a mystery RFer, thats punting until you get a real choice. And of course your solution is to trade everyone for upgrades, but what do they cost? And who are you even targeting?

    As I said, your assumptions are unrealistic and assume the Yankees will operate in a manner they have yet to show.

  38. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    No I’m not saying trade everyone. I’m saying trade for a RF.

  39. blake February 22nd, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    “No I’m not saying trade everyone. I’m saying trade for a RF.”

    which one

  40. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    I’m saying one trade in 2 whole years. But the assets are there if you have to make another. But in my scenario, you would only have to pull off one trade in 2 whole years. Amazing. Imagine that.

  41. Tar February 22nd, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    For those against the Montero trade ( i’m included) would it change your thinking at all if it turns out he is a total prima-donna, big headed jerk?

    I am totally just thinking out-loud here. I have no proof and I am not saying he is!!! But what if his ego is such that the Yankees hated his work ethic and make-up. What if he even turned off his team-mates to the point where they said good riddance.

    All of that would kind of make some of the things that went down kind of make more sense.

    We all know what he could do on the field, but I have not read many personal accounts of what kind of person he is.

    Would that change your thinking on this trade at all?

    I think for me the answer is yes it would temper my feeling somewhat against this trade.

    And again not saying any of that is true, just that it’s a possibility.

  42. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    And trade the 2013 starting catcher who just signed a 3 year deal, and your setup man midseason (when have the yankees TRADED away valuable bullpen pieces midseason) and potential cost controlled position players (the kind the yankees need) for upgrades at third and catcher.

    All of your solutions are ‘trade something!’ and since when have the Yankees operated like that?

  43. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    blake February 22nd, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    “No I’m not saying trade everyone. I’m saying trade for a RF.”

    which one

    ********

    One that makes anywhere from .5 million – 7 million dollars.

  44. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 8:21 pm

    Would that change your thinking on this trade at all?

    I’ll take all the jerks in the world if they can hit and win games. They should have signed Barry Bonds midseason in 2008 to DH when they had all those injuries. Woulda went to the playoffs.

  45. blake February 22nd, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    “One that makes anywhere from .5 million – 7 million dollars.”

    there are a lot of those….but there aren’t many that are any good though….and the ones that are aren’t easy to acquire.

  46. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    I’m saying the only hole where a trade is required is RF. Martin is a salary dump, worst case scenario.

    And the lineup can support Nunez at 3b and Romine at catcher.

    No trades needed for 3b or catcher. Maybe in your scenario, if you have one.

    Not in mine.

  47. blake February 22nd, 2012 at 8:23 pm

    Tar,

    maybe a little….but I haven’t really read anything to suggest thats the case….

  48. Tom in N.J. February 22nd, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    Could Slade Heathcott be ready by 2014?

  49. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    blake February 22nd, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    “One that makes anywhere from .5 million – 7 million dollars.”

    there are a lot of those….but there aren’t many that are any good though….and the ones that are aren’t easy to acquire.

    **********

    Well you’ve got Gardner + Hughes + a full farm.

    If you can’t pull it off, you keep Gardner in LF and sign Cabrera for RF.

    The money is actually 2 million less, the diff between cabrera and upton

  50. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    And the lineup can support Nunez at 3b and Romine at catcher.

    The lineup with a 40 year old Jeter at short, no RFer, and BJ Upton ? Best hitters on the team being a 33 year old Granderson and a 31 year old Cano? Okie dokie, Bret.

  51. blake February 22nd, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    “Could Slade Heathcott be ready by 2014?”

    he’ll have to start staying a lot healthier in 2012 for that to happen I think

  52. Jerkface February 22nd, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    Could Slade Heathcott be ready by 2014?

    Not to start. September call up? Midseason? Bench? Maybe.

  53. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    Granderson and Cano in their early 30′s. Oh the horror.

  54. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    39-40 yr old Derek Jeter at shortstop in 2014. NEVER.

    And what about 38-39 year old AROD at DH.

    ITS TERRIBLE

  55. m1kew February 22nd, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    In an effort to boost attendance on 6/29 vs. the Tigers the Rays will be giving away … a TeddyZim!!! http://hardballtalk.nbcsports......onal-item/

  56. blake February 22nd, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Hopefully some of the young bats in the system will develop and be starting to get close to the big leagues around 2014 or 2015…..

    2012 is really a big year for the farm…..they need Banuelos and especially Betances to take steps forward and ideally it would be nice for guys like sanchez, Williams, and Bichette to have good years and get to Tampa…..

  57. ron February 22nd, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    They will structure cano’s & grandersons contract where they make less in 2014,just to stay under,then like 30 million in 2015,if they wan’t to.Thats if they sign any or both.

    Cano is going to make 15 million in 2013,granderson 13 million,so their raises will be about 12 million,combined.
    Soriano off the books covers that,with a million leftover.

  58. Bronx Jeers February 22nd, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    Instead of chasing chickens in the back alleys of Philly, Hughes got himself into shape chasing down foie gras appetizers in the posh bistros of La Jolla.

  59. blake February 22nd, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    “They will structure cano’s & grandersons contract where they make less in 2014,just to stay under,then like 30 million in 2015,if they wan’t to.Thats if they sign any or both.”

    luxury tax works off AAV though

  60. jacksquat February 22nd, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    I’ve written before that, in the big picture, the Yankees best-case scenario is to have Hughes grab that spot and never let go. He’s still pretty young with considerable talent, and the Yankees would be better off having him win a rotation spot for the next decade rather than have Freddy Garcia return for another one-year cameo.

    Hughes is a free agent after the 2013 season, so he doesn’t help beyond then. He’ll be just like any other free agent, money wise. He’s a bargain for 2012 and 2013 if he pitches very well.

  61. Bronx Jeers February 22nd, 2012 at 8:48 pm

    In an effort to boost attendance on 6/29 vs. the Tigers the Rays will be giving away … a TeddyZim!!! http://hardballtalk.nbcsports……onal

    ——————————–

    That’s awesome. The Yanks should do a talking version with Sterling.

  62. Tar February 22nd, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    “Hughes got himself into shape chasing down foie gras appetizers in the posh bistros of La Jolla.”

    Haha. Back in the day I did some chasing in La Jolla myself, and it wasn’t Foie gras I was after. :D Fun place.

  63. Bret The Hitman February 22nd, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    NBA Finals: NYK vs. OKC

    OKC in 7

  64. CompassRosy February 22nd, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Buster_ESPN
    Would love to hear from pitchers who follow, like @SippTony or @gehrig38 or @DHuddy41 How did you learn grip of your best secondary pitch?

    ~

    TheDA53
    @Buster_ESPN learned my split by trial and error, having a willing throwing partner take bad splits off their ankles helps. #WillOhman

    shawnkelley23
    @Buster_ESPN slider!! learned by mistake because my curveball stunk! So I still hold the cBall grip to throw my out pitch #swingandAmiss

  65. luis February 22nd, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Good evening everyone,

    Tar,

    Sorry to cut in, but i think Montero had the right make up to be a very important part of the team. Unlike many Venezuelan players, he comes from a middle class family, he had the fortune to have both a father and a mother who taught him values and character. Plus he came from a very traditional team down here, one with a culture not that different from the Yankees, so i was certain that he could handle the pressure to play in the Bronx as he showed in his brief career with the Yankees. All that talk about him being a head case or a prima donna is just BS.

  66. Tar February 22nd, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Luis

    I was and am totally speculating. But with all due respect from what you posted so are you. People with good middle class parents can still be jerks. Especially when they reach success at an early age. I also never mentioned handling pressure. Just work ethic and general jerkiness.

  67. luis February 22nd, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    I might add, that the discussion i have read in this thread just convinces me, that they needed a young, cost controlled impact bat more than another arm, since they already have so many arms almost ready down in the farm. The next impact bat may not be ready until 2014 ( Sanchez ). With the new CBA is going to be very hard to get one of those in the draft with the hard penalties established.

  68. luis February 22nd, 2012 at 9:02 pm

    Tar,

    I have followed Montero’s career ever since he was signed by the Yankees. You are right about that not matter where you are born, there are jerks everywhere. But as far as i know, his family was a very down to earth working family, and he seemed like a good kid.

  69. Tar February 22nd, 2012 at 9:12 pm

    Luis

    I should repeat that I was against the trade. And again totally speculating.

    But I have read what Cashman has said about the trade, I have read the theories about the salary cap and signing high priced pitching free agents. Something just doesn’t quite add up to me.

    I am starting to think that something soured the front office against Montero. If it’s not work ethic or make-up what else would it be?

    Of course I could be totally wrong, but it sure seems that the writing was on the wall for quite some time.

  70. luis February 22nd, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    Tar,

    I could be wrong as well…..but every time one of the prospects gets traded there is this media attack on the character and makeup of this kids, that they forget they are just 19, 20 year old kids. I think due to age they should get a pass, JMHO. And i know that you were against the trade as i was. I am a little biased on the issue for obvious reasons, but when you read the posts about how do you get to have a competitive team by 2014 with a payroll below 189 mil to avoid the penalties, the logic path should have been to keep Montero and wait for the pitching prospects to pan out.

  71. Ys Guy February 22nd, 2012 at 9:21 pm

    …what trade? there was a trade? how did i miss that?

  72. J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    Tar,

    You may not be facing a much simpler reason:

    1). They wildly over rate “catcher defense.”
    2). They under rate their own lineup’s potential volatility
    3). They are besotted with a kind of naive, heroic ideal of pitching and defense be the real keys to winning and associate even a great young hitter with a kind of “excess”, not something that can win games for you, even though their lineup has progressively declined against RHP and could not come up with that illusive big hit.
    4). They have little to no belief in their own arms, so they became mesmerized by someone else’s hard throwing young stud.
    5). They believe they need to justify the long-term contracts, so they’ve decided to “save” the DH role for turns by Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, and whomever they think needs to take a “1/2 day.” (Possibly the dumbest reason of all).
    6). They look at 97 wins and think that means they’re in great shape.
    7). They don’t want to shell out for a FA pitcher next winter (and are obviously dubious about the chance of one of their own high upside prospects making their 2013 staff), nor did they want to for Darvish. Yet rather than just stop at signing Kuroda, and keep Montero – which would have given them the extra veteran pitching presence to solidify the staff, and kept Montero right where he was needed – they piled on a strength because they identify it as a weakness.

    In sum: they think their strength is their weakness, and their weakness their strength.

    That’s how I see it.

  73. Ys Guy February 22nd, 2012 at 9:31 pm

    …or they just thought pineda would turn out better than montero…

    …just a thought…

  74. Tar February 22nd, 2012 at 9:31 pm

    “the logic path should have been to keep Montero and wait for the pitching prospects to pan out.”

    Exactly. But they didn’t. When I ask myself why– what I come up with is they soured on Montero. We all know it wasn’t from his performance on the field, so what’s left?

  75. J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 9:33 pm

    uis February 22nd, 2012 at 9:20 pm
    Tar,

    I could be wrong as well…..but every time one of the prospects gets traded there is this media attack on the character and makeup of this kids, that they forget they are just 19, 20 year old kids.
    ///

    You can just about wind your watch to it, can’t you? But it’s Oh. So. Transparent.

    By the way, read a great story several years ago on Montero learning catching from his catcher mother, one of many family members drawn to the position, apparently.

    The story communicated how much he respects and loves him mother, and how his family encouraged him every step of the way. Nothing like the petulant, brooding, self-serving, intractable teenage brat certain vultures keep pointing to.

  76. J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 9:35 pm

    Ys Guy February 22nd, 2012 at 9:31 pm
    …or they just thought pineda would turn out better than montero…

    …just a thought…
    ///

    Difficult to compare pitchers and hitters, but if they don’t think Montero is going to be a game-changing type presence, then I worry about their evaluative talents. They had the guy for six years; if they don’t see how special he is, then they’re egregiously blind about such things.

  77. Ys Guy February 22nd, 2012 at 9:37 pm

    obviously they disagree with you.

  78. Tar February 22nd, 2012 at 9:37 pm

    J ALfred

    None of those strike as me being it.

    For me it’s either they were in love with Pineda that they had to have him at all costs ( obviously by some of the comments they weren’t).

    Or they were not in love with Montero.

    Thats what my brain is telling me.

  79. J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 9:37 pm

    Exactly. But they didn’t. When I ask myself why– what I come up with is they soured on Montero. We all know it wasn’t from his performance on the field, so what’s left?
    ///

    1 through 7? :D
    :(

  80. luis February 22nd, 2012 at 9:37 pm

    Tar,

    I think JAP just gave you the answer. Props JAP, i couldn’t have said it better

  81. LGY February 22nd, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    How can you say the Yankees “soured” on Montero when they tried to trade him for a pitcher for 3 years?

    Trading for Pineda was entirely consistent with their prior actions.

  82. Tar February 22nd, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    “Nothing like the petulant, brooding, self-serving, intractable teenage brat certain vultures keep pointing to.”

    I know I kind of posted that, but I don’t remember reading it anywhere ( except for maybe here). Has there been articles that allude to this kind of thought?

  83. yankeefeminista February 22nd, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    8. Cash is finally getting to live out his fantasy of being Andrew Friedman :?: :mrgreen:

  84. yankeefeminista February 22nd, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    Tar, nope.

  85. Tar February 22nd, 2012 at 9:43 pm

    “How can you say the Yankees “soured” on Montero when they tried to trade him for a pitcher for 3 years?”

    I didn’t say when they soured on him. Why did they keep trying to trade him LGY?

  86. LGY February 22nd, 2012 at 9:45 pm

    I didn’t say when they soured on him. Why did they keep trying to trade him LGY?

    ——–

    Cashman says every winter pitching is his main priority.

    He clearly values it above all else.

  87. luis February 22nd, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    Y’s,

    Bats are more predictible than pitchers. They even recognized that they were taking a very huge risk, because if Pineda doesn’t develop that elusive third pitch we have a mid rotation pitcher or relief pitcher in our hands. So we basically traded an impact bat for that. Don’t get me wrong, i am rooting for Pineda to become the ace he has the potential to be, but trading a more predictable asset for a risky one doesn’t makes sense, unless they don’t believe in the arms they have in the farm as Pruf just pointed out so well.

  88. yankeefeminista February 22nd, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    JR: http://web.yesnetwork.com/medi.....d=20103413

    Should we be reading into this that because the profile is on JR and not Sanchez that Sanchez has an attitude problem, ultimately won’t be trusted to catch and has fallen out of favor? ;)

  89. J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    Ys Guy February 22nd, 2012 at 9:37 pm
    obviously they disagree with you.
    ///

    Well, obviously. And I not only disagree with them, this trade has completely undermined any basic confidence I had in their ability to understand their own needs and make good decisions based on them.

    My hope is, Rothschild’s touch is golden with all these young guys, and that we have an invincible, young pitching staff (because we have two guys in AAA that could get guys out up here right now). But I fear they’re going to trade some of those guys away to get a hitter. And so we go ’round and ’round. They now need to stick with their dominant pitching mantra to give any conviction or grant them any sort of vision for what they’ve done, here.

  90. luis February 22nd, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    yankeefeminista February 22nd, 2012 at 9:42 pm
    8. Cash is finally getting to live out his fantasy of being Andrew Friedman

    LOL!!!!

  91. Tar February 22nd, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    “He clearly values it above all else.”

    I’ve told myself that a hundred times. I realized that I still don’t believe that was the case in this trade.

    Maybe for Lee, not for Pineda

  92. J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    yankeefeminista February 22nd, 2012 at 9:46 pm
    JR: http://web.yesnetwork.com/medi…..d=20103413

    Should we be reading into this that because the profile is on JR and not Sanchez that Sanchez has an attitude problem, ultimately won’t be trusted to catch and has fallen out of favor?
    ///

    WOL, I sure hope not. I once envisioned a Sanchez/Montero duo behind the plate. Now, it’s JR/GS.

  93. m February 22nd, 2012 at 9:49 pm

    I don’t know if they’ve been trying for 3 years, but Monterowas linked to Cliff Lee and someone else (?).

    And ultimately…

  94. J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 9:52 pm

    yankeefeminista February 22nd, 2012 at 9:42 pm
    8. Cash is finally getting to live out his fantasy of being Andrew Friedman
    ///

    :D. You do get the feeling that Cashman has a need to impose himself on how they go about trying to win.

  95. J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 9:55 pm

    Tar February 22nd, 2012 at 9:41 pm
    “Nothing like the petulant, brooding, self-serving, intractable teenage brat certain vultures keep pointing to.”

    I know I kind of posted that, but I don’t remember reading it anywhere ( except for maybe here). Has there been articles that allude to this kind of thought?
    ///

    There’s never any source for this kind of stuff, is there? It sort of spreads like a fog on the internet, once a guy is out the door. BTW, Tar, the Yankees themselves have identified some of those reasons I listed. But, if you need to find to God particle on this, keep searchin’ I guess ;)

  96. GreenBeret7 February 22nd, 2012 at 9:57 pm

    Tar,

    Have you noticed that not one player have even referred to Montero, one way or the other, good or bad? All that was out there was Rodriguez talking about having to get on him about not taking extra hitting/ Seems to say that not many are upset about the deal.

  97. m February 22nd, 2012 at 10:00 pm

    Meh, GB7. Love the one you’re with.

    But Pineda’s teammates seem to really live him.

  98. J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 10:00 pm

    luis,

    I should amend No. 3:

    3). They are besotted with a kind of naive, heroic ideal of pitching and defense be the SOLITARY keys to winning and associate even a great young hitter with a kind of “excess”, not something that can win CLOSE, DEFENSIVE games for you, WHEN YOU NEED THAT KIND OF BAT TO BREAK A TIGHT, CLOSE GAME YOUR WAY, even though their lineup has progressively declined against RHP and could not come up with that illusive big hit.

  99. J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 10:03 pm

    GreenBeret7 February 22nd, 2012 at 9:57 pm
    Tar,

    Have you noticed that not one player have even referred to Montero, one way or the other, good or bad? All that was out there was Rodriguez talking about having to get on him about not taking extra hitting/ Seems to say that not many are upset about the deal.
    ///

    What, we’re supposed to infer he’s a clubhouse cancer or something? Give me a break; players don’t mourn the loss of a guy who’s been here five minutes, and if they privately wonder at the wisdom of trading such a high quality bat, they’re certainly not going voice it to the media.

    Players are completely rah-rah and boilerplate when it comes to this stuff. Management and ownership always make the right choice. It’s always a “great deal for us.”

  100. m February 22nd, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    He he.

    *love* him.

  101. luis February 22nd, 2012 at 10:05 pm

    GreenBeret7 February 22nd, 2012 at 9:57 pm

    So??

  102. GreenBeret7 February 22nd, 2012 at 10:05 pm

    m February 22nd, 2012 at 10:00 pm
    Meh, GB7. Love the one you’re with.

    But Pineda’s teammates seem to really live him.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    I haven’t even read that “you got to give up good to get good” from a player. Look at the player talk about Burnett….almost all positive. There’s nothing from the players.

  103. rm February 22nd, 2012 at 10:07 pm

    Bret,

    The bigest problem I see with your plan is that you left off the other 15 men on the 40 man roster. You need to pay them with the 189MM$ too. Also your salaries seem to be 2014 salaries not average over the life of the contract salaries. That probably doesn’t matter too much. Also I beleive if A-Rod hits a milestone the 6MM$ is spread out over the remaining years of the contract instead of counting it all on the year achieved. If ths isn’t the case it would be easy to game the system with easily achievable bonuses in years you want to load up for Luxury cap purposes. Also $22 Million/year for Cano seems low to me.

  104. randy l. February 22nd, 2012 at 10:07 pm

    “But Pineda’s teammates seem to really live him.”

    now why wouldn’t they like him?

  105. luis February 22nd, 2012 at 10:07 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 10:00 pm
    luis,

    I should amend No. 3:

    3). They are besotted with a kind of naive, heroic ideal of pitching and defense be the SOLITARY keys to winning and associate even a great young hitter with a kind of “excess”, not something that can win CLOSE, DEFENSIVE games for you, WHEN YOU NEED THAT KIND OF BAT TO BREAK A TIGHT, CLOSE GAME YOUR WAY, even though their lineup has progressively declined against RHP and could not come up with that illusive big hit.

    ==================================

    I like it even more :) ……I think Girardi had alot to do with the trade and his love for defensive catcher instead of an offensive one.

  106. luis February 22nd, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    GB7,

    Burnett played with them for three years, they played with Montero 5 minutes??!!, not a fair comparison in my view

  107. m February 22nd, 2012 at 10:15 pm

    Now, why would anyone NOT like him?

  108. Tar February 22nd, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    Not sure where I should be posting

    “Have you noticed that not one player have even referred to Montero, one way or the other, good or bad? All that was out there was Rodriguez talking about having to get on him about not taking extra hitting/ Seems to say that not many are upset about the deal.”

    GB

    Yeah thanks I have noticed that. Not a lot of “real sorry to see him go” kind of thing.

    Like it or not or even if it’s true or not– Montero not having a great work ethic or make-up, makes everything that doesn’t quite make sense about this trade, make sense.

    Again I am totally speculating-I have no proof.

  109. yankeefeminista February 22nd, 2012 at 10:18 pm

    C and Burnett were BFF; their wives and families hung out together, and they walked the walk for 3 years. Burnett trained with and won a WS with them. Hardly comparable.

  110. J. Alfred Prufrock February 22nd, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    I like it even more ……I think Girardi had alot to do with the trade and his love for defensive catcher instead of an offensive one.
    ///

    I really wanted this guy to be the manager. Mea culpa. I wish they’d fire him and hire Tony Pena. I have no idea what kind of a manager he’d be, but I would like Sanchez – who potentially could be their second most important bat in a couple-three years – to be able to speak with his manager/former catcher in his native language.

    Somehow, that’s become important in my thinking on this.

  111. GreenBeret7 February 22nd, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Pruf and Luis,

    You both need to stop acting like that was a personal attack on you. Nobody likes the trade, but, it was made because the yanks as a front office decision felt they needed what Pineda could give them now and in the future. It has nothing to do with “because girardi didn’t want an offensive catcher”. If Hughes had not had a setback last year and Phelps and Warren had not been hurt last year, that trade doesn’t get made. They weren’t going through a 2008 part II again with 2 question marks in the rotation. The trade is over, Time to move on and stop acting like they did this just to piss you off.

  112. GreenBeret7 February 22nd, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    m February 22nd, 2012 at 10:15 pm
    Now, why would anyone NOT like him?

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Never said that he was not liked. As for Luis and his 5 minute thing, there was more talk about how hard Randy Winn worked and tried than anything about Montero leaving. I don’t know what went on, because nobody in that clubhouse ever knocks another player. They just don’t say anything.

  113. luis February 22nd, 2012 at 10:34 pm

    GB7,

    For the record, i don’t take it personally, it’s just that i see a trend that seems unfair, look what they said on kennedy, Tabata and more recently to Montero ( I’m talking about the media sweeny murti for example ). But you are right about moving on though

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