The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Monday notes: Hughes’ first spring start coming March 11

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 27, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

If you’re in competition for the fifth spot in the rotation, but people keep talking about your proven ability to pitch out of the bullpen, it’s probably not encouraging to see your first spring outing will be in relief. You have to think Phil Hughes would like to distance himself from the bullpen talk, but his first spring appearance will be April 6, in relief of CC Sabathia.

Bad sign? Not really. Just a scheduling quirk. The Yankees have a split doubleheader five days later, so Hughes will be on turn to make a start on Saturday, March 11. Nothing official, but you can bet Sabathia will start at home that day. Hughes will make the road trip to face the Twins.

“(Hughes) is going to pitch just like a starter would,” Joe Girardi said. “And if I have to warm up another reliever in between to get it like it’s a rotation, that’s what I’ll do. It just works out that we have a split-squad coming up, and you can match up the split-squad.”

Counting the days to Opening Day, the current schedule leaves Sabathia lined up to start the opener on one extra day of rest (an extra day that I suppose could come at any point this spring). Hughes is actually lined up to be one regular rest for the fifth game of the season, assuming he pitches some sort of game on the March 5 off day.

• To be honest, notes were pretty light here on photo day. The Yankees are definitely in the no-news-is-good-news phase of spring training. It’s too early to get a great read on how guys are doing, and the only real news usually involves setbacks and injuries. Girardi said no one was added to the injury list today.

• Robinson Cano will be away from camp for a couple of days. His grandmother died yesterday, so Cano has flown home.

• Girardi was on the main field to watch Hughes, Hiroki Kuroda, Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances throw batting practice. There’s still no radar gun on these guys, and they’re still knocking off some of the rust, but Hughes seemed to be keeping the ball down and Banuelos got some swings and misses. “I actually thought they all threw really well,” Girardi said. “For some of these kids, they’ve thrown a couple times. Betances and Banuelos, very happy with what I saw from them. Very happy with what I saw from Phil and Kuroda as well. Lot of strikes today, which is important.”

• Derek Jeter’s take on live batting practice: “I didn’t swing. No, I don’t like it. I get claustrophobic, man. The cage, the screen — everything seems like it’s too close. But it’s always been like that. Everyone seems like they’re throwing 200 mph.”

• Jeter took BP against Hughes, so let’s get those headlines ready: Jeter says Hughes throwing 200 mph!

• George Kontos has been cleared to resume throwing on Friday. After he plays catch with no problems, the Yankees will schedule a bullpen. Kontos said he feels 100 percent, but the Yankees are obviously giving him some extra time just to be sure.

• David Aardsma still hadn’t shown up in the clubhouse by the time it closed to media this afternoon, but he did have a uniform hanging in it. No word of any sort of delay for him, I just haven’t seen him.

• Still hoping that a bench job will open, Bill Hall worked at third base, second base and the outfield today. He was in the outfield and at third base for popup drills, and he went to second base to take grounders during batting practice. With Cano gone, Eduardo Nunez got some reps at second base today, and I saw Ramiro Pena getting work at both shortstop and third base. Jorge Vazquez also took some grounders at third today.

• Andy Pettitte said he’ll only be in town for a few days. Bernie Williams is also planning to show up as a guest instructor, but Girardi’s not sure when Williams is scheduled to be here.

• Does it make Jeter feel old to have old teammates like Pettitte and Williams in camp as guest instructors? “I feel the same age whether they’re here or not,” Jeter said. “I was always younger than all of them and I’ll always be younger than all of them.”

Associated Press photos (yes, some of the Photo Day pictures are apparently taken in the bathroom)

Comments

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109 Responses to “Monday notes: Hughes’ first spring start coming March 11”

  1. yankeefeminista February 27th, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    Huuughes!

    Great notes, Chad. Looking forward to more reports on the pitching prospects.

  2. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Hughes looks noticeably lighter in that photo.

    :)

  3. yankeefeminista February 27th, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    :)

  4. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 6:42 pm

    How are you YF ?

  5. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    hughes could be good this year.

  6. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    randy-

    Hughes is an “X factor”.

    ;)

  7. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    MTU -

    You’re right, Phil does look trim in that photo. Perhaps he learned his lesson, and kept in shape this off season. Let’s hope it bods well for him, and he regains early 2010 success.

  8. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    Al-

    It could just be the Photo but he does look almost “thin”.

    :)

  9. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    randy l -

    Is that over the 50% line for the positive? I see Phil as the #5 SP, if he does his job this spring. I fear the Yankees might look at Garcia as a better option as a SP than a BP guy, and they know Phil can do well out of the BP.

  10. yankeefeminista February 27th, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    MTU, I am great. How are you and yours?

    Hughes is definitely in better shape than he has been in a long while. Hoping for some added pop and some mega leg drive behind his pitching this season.

  11. Tom in N.J. February 27th, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    This photo was taken next to a urinal

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/te.....093327%3A1

  12. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    MTU -

    NEVER enough SP, so its good we now have 6 SP, and good options already in AAA.

    All we need now is for the bats to be consistent – Here’s where randy says we traded away a great bat, and he’s right, but, we have to play with those that are here now!

  13. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    YF-

    I’m almost back to abnormal.

    I was down with some sort of crawling crud for about a week.

    If Hughes is in the kind of shape that I think he is lot’s of positives should flow from it.

    :)

  14. yankeefeminista February 27th, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    MTU, glad to hear you are back to your idiosyncratic self! :)

    Off to skype with a client. Back soon.

  15. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    Al-

    I am very, very confident in our Pitching.

    Our cups runneth over, so to speak.

    Randy is right in that regard. Big bat sent packing.

    However, big arm came back in return.

    :)

  16. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    YF-

    The last time I tried to “skype” someone I almost wound up in the hospital.

    Some people don’t take kindly to that.

    :)

  17. Pat M. February 27th, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    Yanks aren’t going to waste the final 2 years of Phil Hughes in the bullpen…….Garcia will be the swingman, besides both Garcia and Kuroda will be gone after 2012…….Hughes would have to get injured or just really be bad not to be in the Bombers rotation this season……He looks real fit though…..

  18. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    This photo was taken next to a urinal

    A-rod wanted to seem ‘casual, like one of the guys’ so he requested his photo be taken ‘wherever non-billionaire jerk offs usually hang out’

  19. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    pat M.-

    He looks “studly’.

    ;)

  20. PittsburghYankeeFan February 27th, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Maine Yankee

    In reference to PAbe and Beckett, the quotes by PAbe from Extra Bases make Beckett sound like a jerk (which is not too far from the truth, looking over his entire career).

    However, if you read the entire interview with WEEI, he actually comes across as a guy who has completely changed his attitude after his daughter was born. He states multiple times that baseball is just a game, and his wife and daughter are a much more important part of his life now–even more important than baseball.

    I came away shocking impressed with him–it almost sounds like he is growing up. Are pigs flying? Has hell frozen over?

  21. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Off topic:

    Did anyone happen to see 60 Minutes last night ?

    Was that frickin’ awesome or what ?

    :)

  22. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    MTU -

    I think you’re looking a bit too close at Phil, for a guy. lol.

  23. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    Al-

    Did you see “Act of Valor” ?

    Right up your power alley amigo.

    ;)

  24. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    MTU -

    Not yet, but it’s at the top of my list. As you know, my son was a part of that elite group, none better!

  25. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    Mike -

    Have you seen it?

  26. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    I know Al.

    That’s why I asked silly.

    :)

  27. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    Not yet Al.

    I can’t believe they allowed them to film it using real live SEALS.

    WoW !

  28. Bret The Hitman February 27th, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    It’s hard for me to get excited about Phil Hughes. Good shape or bad shape. He has no repertoire. They should have never scrapped his slider coming out of HS. That was a tragic miscalculation.

  29. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    MTU -

    This movie was actually sanctioned by the Navy, they hope it will help generate a new wave of recruits for the program. I hope to see it this week, during the week to avoid the weekend crowd.

  30. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    Bret-

    He ate coconut oil, and wild-caught Salmon all off season.

    Does that change your mind ?

    :)

  31. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    Al-

    Let me know what you think.

    I’d love to meet your Son.

    You must be incredibly proud.

    Can’t be a chip off the old block can he ?

    :)

  32. Bret The Hitman February 27th, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    Might help him with location and repeating delivery but the lack of an out pitch kills me.

  33. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    bret-

    He has activated “the winner gene”.

    ;)

  34. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    MTU -

    I have to say he found his own way in life, I did my part, he did the rest on his own, and yes, we’re very proud.

    Got to go, mops need a walk, then dinner.

    Enjoy, and I’ll let you know how the movie was.

  35. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    take care Al.

    :)

  36. blake February 27th, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    Man I always hated live BP too….its weird and it does feel like the ball gets on you a lot faster for some reason.

  37. Cashmoney February 27th, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    On Hughes, if he can rack up about 150 inns or more and maintain low 4ish era, I be content personally. I think it makes all the sense in the world to pick him over Garcia as the 5th starter.

  38. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    I was out hiking today.

    One of the ladies in our group found a set of deer antlers.

    So I said “Nice rack”.

    She just looked at me kinda funny.

    :)

  39. Bret The Hitman February 27th, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    I’ll admit. I’m depressed to see this guy go from the next Roger Clemens to basically Jeff Weaver on a good day. I really am. He has been with the Yankees since 2004. 8 years. I’m as optimistic as the next guy. In fact I consider myself positive and free spirited but when it comes to this guy…I just reached a point where it’s hard to hope. After 8 years of not being an ace I’m pretty much done. I gave him a long leash.

  40. blake February 27th, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    So I said “Nice rack”.”

    Lol…..mulie or whitetail?

  41. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    bret-

    That’s up to you.

    But he might still surprise you.

    ;)

  42. Cashmoney February 27th, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Bret, just lower your expectation a little, you will find new pleasure in young squire Hughes.

  43. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Yadier gets 5 years 60+, Desportes reporting 75.

  44. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    Blake-

    definitely white tail.

    ;)

  45. Bret The Hitman February 27th, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    12-15 million per year for Yadier and the Yankees only offered Martin 7 million per year…

    Yikes.

  46. DocTodd February 27th, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    Boy, Hughes looks to be in much better shape than last year. Good news!

  47. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    Be kinda funny if our backup Catcher was named “Rowan” instead of Romine.

    :)

  48. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    “Yanks aren’t going to waste the final 2 years of Phil Hughes in the bullpen…”

    big al and pat m-

    i think hughes might be really good simply because wen he has a down time he seems to dig down and fight back.

    i have always liked hughes natural movement on his fastball.

    i honestly believe had hughes been developed slowly he would have been much further advanced right now.

    the hostility that was directed towards me back when i first said hughes was being rushed in 2007 was similar to what i’m getting now with pineda.

    it was said that hughes had learned everything that he could learn at triple a .
    the logic was he was getting everyone out so that meant he obviously had to move up to the majors.

    the problem is he had not developed all his pitches and the few he had worked down there at shutting down triple a hitters.

    they didn’t work in the majors as 2008 showed.

    hughes has never mastered his pitches because he was rushed.
    now he is still trying to learn things he should have learned 4-5 years ago in the minors.
    i do think he may have a good year this year, but the yankees did him no favors by making his development so hard.

    they also would have had him at an older age in his prime years had they waited . because of being rushed hughes hughes will get to free agency before his prime years. the rays do try to get prime years so they wait longer which makes more sense.

    so what about pineda?

    he was rushed by seattle and he is being rushed by the yankees. it is just like it was with hughes. they think they need him so they can’t spare him spending time mastering his craft at scranton.

    because of this , pineda will have the same obstacles that hughes had.

    did i root against hughes to prove i was right? no , i didn’t. i’ve always liked him though i thought joba was better.

    its the same with pineda . i’m not rooting against him. i’m lobbying for him to get the time in the minors he needs to learn his craft.

    people will say sabathia did it in the majors. he did it with a 65 win cleveland team that didn’t care about winning.

    pineda will be asked to learn a new pitch and to win at the same time.

    pineda, if the yankees keep him u and that’s what they have said they are doing. will have the same problems as hughes and joba has had.

    people can get mad at me for saying that, but they were wrong back with hughes and they are wrong with pineda.

    i’m actually the one who is thinking of what’s best for pineda.

    the people advocating rushing pineda are really supporting something that will hurt him in the long run.

  49. LGY February 27th, 2012 at 7:48 pm

    12-15 million per year for Yadier and the Yankees only offered Martin 7 million per year…

    Yikes

    ——-

    What do you think is a fair contract offer for Martin?

  50. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 7:48 pm

    they didn’t work in the majors as 2008 showed.

    They worked just fine in 2007 and only didn’t work when he had a stress fracture in his rib cage that sapped his velocity.

  51. blake February 27th, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    “definitely white tail.”

    Ok are you talking about the deer? ;)

    Zimmerman and Yadier off the board….will fake Montero be next?

  52. blake February 27th, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    If Hughes had Pineda’s slider he wouldn’t have had a lot of the problems he’s had….injury aside…

  53. Crawdaddy February 27th, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    Right guys, two different pitchers with not similar stuff.

  54. Crawdaddy February 27th, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    The old man keeps repeating the same crap like doing so will make it true for Pineda.

  55. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    In 2007 Hughes had a workable change up he had confidence in, a curve ball that actually got swings and misses, and a deadly fastball which he had command of. The stress fracture in 2008 totally ruined his repertoire, and he didn’t get his fastball back until 2009, when he should have been in the rotation but the Yankees were busy trotting out the corpse of Wang and then instead of putting him back in the rotation after Wang was finished, they left him in the pen.

    Even after Joba and Pettitte were struggling, former with being a young pitcher and the latter with injury, they left him there.

    He could have been just fine coming up in 2007, but he has been hit hard by injury and his own tinkering with the curve.

    If you look at the top 20 pitchers last year, all but 2 or 3 were debuting at age 22 or earlier. Players need to get MAJOR LEAGUE experience as soon as possible, because the earlier they debut the more likely they are to have long term success (all else being equal). They need to get experience so that their physical peek coincides with reaching an expert level of major league ability.

  56. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    Have a good evening people.

    See ya’ Manana.

    ;)

  57. m February 27th, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    randy l,

    It’s not about who’s right or wrong.

    It’s about giving your opinion and just letting it be. Why the compulsion to force feed your opinions on every one else? You want to be the hero and save everyone from something. Haven’t figured it out yet, but I think it involves the quality if the blog and Pineda’s future.

    Eagerly awaiting your “but you still read my stuff” reply.

  58. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    “If you look at the top 20 pitchers last year, all but 2 or 3 were debuting at age 22 or earlier.”

    jerkface-

    these guys almost always do it with bad teams .

    even if sometimes a guy comes up with a decent team, this team still isn’t the yankees.

    the yankees have a demand that pitcher wins.
    nova stuck because he won.
    no winning and he would have been gone.

    hughes was younger than nova and it was too much too soon.
    why control 21-26 when you can control 23- 28?

    i’d rather have a guy at 27 and 28.

  59. m February 27th, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    I’m not sure that Phil is that thin. The backdrop makes it look like a funhouse mirror.

    Can anyone explain the weird backdrop?

  60. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    Those that are giving up on Hughes, simply put, can’t evaluate talent. Hughes has only thrown 443 innings at the ML level, but randy, he has thrown 344 innings in the Mil, so it’s hard to say he was rushed. I watched Phil pitch 2 years at SWB, and he was a man against boys, that in my opinion was the reason he was brought up to NY. All good pitches continue to learn and adjust as their careers go forward, but, the individual has to hone his craft as he continues to develop as a SP. Most of the responsibility has to go to the player at some point.

    When you look at other young, top SP like Price, they threw less innings than Hughes in MiLb.

  61. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    m-

    That is what a fenced in cage area would look like if out of focus in the shot.

    It’s a result of the Photographer’s “technique”.

    I do that stuff all the time.

    ;)

  62. jacksquat February 27th, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    They take the player photos in the bathroom??? :???:

  63. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 8:21 pm

    jack-

    At least he wasn’t on the “can”.

    :)

  64. m February 27th, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    I think a lot of people have lost their patience with Hughes. Which is understandable since he’s been derailed by injuries.

    For whatever reason Hughes has disappointed some people and they resent him for that.

    Side note, Zumaya mulling retirement. Would you do it if you were him? Or would you try to make a comeback? He’s awfully young, no?

  65. m February 27th, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    Every bullpen picture this spring has the same wavy effect.

    I think the shade cloth actually has a wavy pattern on it. Probably to foil picture taking from the outside.

  66. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    m-

    I’d retire. He has made numerous attempts to come back and he just keeps hurting himself.

    If you bang your head against the wall enough times you start to bleed.

    When that happens it’s time to quit.

    If he keeps it up he’s gonna cripple himself.

  67. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 8:26 pm

    randy l. -

    David Price threw only 144 innings in MiLB, over 2 years. Did Tampa rush him?

    The pitcher, and how he commands his pitches in the minors is what determines his fate, not age, or in most cases team needs. SP are getting younger, and better, that’s just the way it is.

  68. blake February 27th, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    “why control 21-26 when you can control 23- 28?”

    It depends on if the player is ready and the organization

  69. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    m-

    I don’t think so m.

    I think the blurring is intentional on the part of the Phtographer.

    I’ve been know to take a few pics and I use the same technique when I want to emphasize something in the foreground.

    ;)

  70. Cashmoney February 27th, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    Randi, what u said about the bit about Yankees modus operandi of ‘world series or bust’ doesn’t fit well into framework of developing a younger pitcher makes a lot of sense, it’s logical. but there really is not a conclusively way to establish that’s the cause of Hughes not meeting the high expectation that lot of us had for him and that’s pretty much it. leave it at that…

    Personally, I think how the Yanks handle Joba and Hughes in ways like Joba’s rule and skipping starts might not be best way establish consistency and stamina and along side repertoire of a youngster but that’s just an opinion.

    In the end, 12 is ahead of us and let’s see how hughes fair.

  71. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    “When you look at other young, top SP like Price, they threw less innings than Hughes in MiLb.”

    big al-

    price was a college pitcher.

    if you take the time and click through the rays 2011 starters, you will see that they all were 23-24 when they had entered the rotation. some at 24.

    to make it easy, here’s the link:
    http://www.baseball-reference......2011.shtml

    look at each starter. look at the age they started. look at the won -loss record. lok at how much the rays get out of them by starting a year or two later.

    i’m not talking about hughes having been held up till he was 24, but what would have been wrong about 23 as a starting point?

    has it hurt hellickson being held back until he was 24 for his first full season. he will also be under rays control through his age 29 season.

    this approach just plain makes sense to me.

  72. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    Gotta run.

    later.

  73. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    MTU -

    He needs TJ surgery, either way, and although its very difficult, he could come back better in 18 months. He’s only 27 now, so I’d try one more time if I were him. Had he been in his mid thirties, that would be different.

  74. Cashmoney February 27th, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    “I can’t stand the Yankees, man, and I’m going to go right after them,” he said after an outing in which he hit 100 mph on the radar gun. “But that’s just part of this game. I’m going to go right after guys.”

    When asked by John Keating of Fox Sports Detroit what he doesn’t like about the Yankees, Zumaya said, “there are little things about them I can’t stand. They’re just the Yankees.”
    ———-
    base on that, I hope Zumaya call it a career.

  75. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    “It depends on if the player is ready and the organization”

    blake-

    click though the rays 2011 starters as i asked al to.

    it is so obvious this approach is solid.

    i agree where one guy might be ready at 21 and kick ass for that year and his mlb career from that point on.

    but for the highest probability of doing well with a lot of pitchers , i think it’s obvious the rays have the superior approach to the yankees by going slower and delaying the first full year to 23 24.

    they went faster with kazmir and looked how that worked out.

  76. MTU February 27th, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    Al-

    He has had more arm injuries than rabitts have bunnies. It’s more than just needing TJ right now.

    He’s gonna cripple himself if he’s not careful.

    Maybe he needs to go back to the “day job”. It ain’t pitching.

    It’s his life. His arm does not hold up well to the stresses he places on it.

  77. BIG AL February 27th, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    randy l. -

    I see your point, well taken. The real problem seems to be the instructors, or lack thereof, that has a greater impact on the proper development of good talent. I’m not a big fan of the present system, there are some very talented PC’s that could make a huge difference to the Yankees future, but it seems those in place now are like the politicians in DC, just can’t get rid of those not doing their job well, too well entrenched.

    Got to run, y’all have a great night.

  78. Cashmoney February 27th, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    they went faster with kazmir and looked how that worked out.
    ——–
    It turn out be okay from age 21-25, kazmir had pretty good runs of decent to very good seasons. If i follow ur logic, I can deduce that’s small frame and high octane had burned him out early as pitcher hence further deduce that org shouldn’t sign small body frame pitcher who throws gas. but is it conclusive, no. that’s the whole point.

  79. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    “Got to run, y’all have a great night.”

    have a good one.

  80. austinmac February 27th, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    Zumaya torques his body more than it can take. I believe he is likely done as an MLB pitcher. Too bad even as though Yankee hater. They are so much more fun to beat.

  81. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    these guys almost always do it with bad teams .

    even if sometimes a guy comes up with a decent team, this team still isn’t the yankees.

    the yankees have a demand that pitcher wins.
    nova stuck because he won.
    no winning and he would have been gone.

    hughes was younger than nova and it was too much too soon.
    why control 21-26 when you can control 23- 28?

    i’d rather have a guy at 27 and 28.

    Either the Yankees should be doing it like other teams or they shouldn’t, but if they want players who are in the hall of fame they need to be prepared to bring them up young. Cano debut at 22, he got a good head start on major league experience such that he is peaking during his prime. If you want the Yankees to smother players careers thats fine, but I would not recommend that. Players should be brought up when they are reasonably ready for the majors, which it can be stated that Hughes was reasonably ready.

    You can have the guy at 27 and 28, but if you start him at 24 or 25 he isn’t going to be as good at 27 or 28 as a guy that started when he was 23 or earlier. The sooner they start learning at the major league level the better they will be for their career.

    Your Rays example isn’t any good, because Davis and Niemann are below average and Hellickson has only been around for a year. Hellickson and Price both came up at 23, which is fine, and pretty young, but it doesn’t mean anything. Hellickson hasn’t had a career yet and price was only brought up at 23 because he was a college pitcher.

    Once again, I point you to the list of the top pitchers in baseball, and marvel at how few to none debut post 23. And many debuted at 21,20,19.

  82. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    it is so obvious this approach is solid.

    -

    Obvious would be if the Rays had decades worth of starting rotations that were above average all using the same approach.

  83. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    “but is it conclusive, no. that’s the whole point.”

    nothing is conclusive in baseball because it’s a probability game.

    sure, no one instance of anything that happens proves anything.

    i agree.

    but overall, if anyone looks at the rays starters in 2011 it looks like a pretty solid approach.

    of course we’ll have to wait 5-6 years to see the final results, but they really seem like they are on to a good plan.

  84. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    “Obvious would be if the Rays had decades worth of starting rotations that were above average all using the same approach.”

    yup, i agree it will take years to really know for sure.

    maybe that is part of the allure of baseball that it takes a large sample over years to prove anything .

    people can argue forever, but in this case, i see what the rays as doing as smart.

    they are getting immediate results too.

    but agree. we have to watch their whole careers to now for sure.

    the rays clearly haven’t been doing things like this for that long.

  85. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    “Once again, I point you to the list of the top pitchers in baseball, and marvel at how few to none debut post 23. And many debuted at 21,20,19.”

    what list?

  86. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    Lester, Beckett: 22, 21,
    Felix, Kershaw: 19, 20
    Cain, Lincecum, Bumgarner, Sanchez: 20, 23, 19, 23
    Hamels, Halladay: 22, 21
    Greinke: 20
    Jurrjens, Hanson: 21, 22
    Josh Johnson, Anibal Sanchez: 21, 22
    CC: 20

    CC might not be the CC he is today if he wasn’t in the big leagues early, because his experience threshold would have come after he had peaked physically.

    And these guys don’t even have to be bad or lose a lot when they are young! Some of them do quite well!

    There is no 100% way to develop a starting rotation.

  87. Rich in NJ February 27th, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    What happens to Hughes this spring is probably the most interesting story that will come out of FLA.

  88. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 9:01 pm

    what list?

    top 20 pitchers last year.

  89. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 9:02 pm

    jeff niemann is 38-23

    he’s been paid 3 million total.

    the yankees could use some below average pitchers if he’s below average .

  90. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    “top 20 pitchers last year.”

    link it please so we’re looking at the same thing.

  91. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    lester’s first full year was age 24

  92. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    becket didn’t win more than ten games until he was 25.

  93. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    Exactly, but they debuted much earlier. They have to let their experience catch up with their physical tools. Niemann is 38-23 but is below league average by ERA+, who cares if he is vulturing wins? Hughes is 36-23, 3 years younger, and missed a ton of time due to injury. Hughes has a chance to double the number of games he has won over Niemann by age 28, which greatly increases his chances at milestone win totals.

    I am talking about the fangraphs top 20 pitchers.

  94. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 9:15 pm

    felix hernadez has done great from the get go.

    he also had no pressure to win.

    this wouldn’t have happened had he ben on the yankees.

    kershaw has done well and was on a good team .

    matt cain was with really bad teams. no pressure to win

  95. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 9:15 pm

    They don’t have to be anchors of the rotation at 20,21,22 but they should be getting major league experience, if they are suitably destroying the minors like Hughes, Kershaw, et al are want to do.

    You talked a lot about ‘doing’, but leaving pitchers in the minor leagues is not allowing them to ‘do’. Until they face major leaguers its all theory.

  96. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 9:17 pm

    If you are too worried about pressure to win, then you’re going to have to face the fact that the Yankees might never create a franchise pitcher like other teams have. Ours will be too busy figuring things out in their primes. If they are still bumping up against experience issues at 27-28, the Yankees will not be retaining them.

  97. Rich in NJ February 27th, 2012 at 9:21 pm

    Hughes has suffered from 3 things:

    1) repeated injuries;
    2) which caused him to miss so many starts that it was impossible to build up arm strength and learn his craft (iow, work on his pitchers, maintain command);
    3) and that was exacerbated by the Yankees’ short-sighted propensity to put their young starters in the pen.

  98. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 9:21 pm

    lincecum is 23 like i say is better no problem there.

    baumgarner real young and two good years

    sanchez was a mess until his first full year at age 26

  99. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    hamels started 22 been good ever since

    halladay 18 games at triple a at age 23 and24

  100. Rice Pudding Flavoured Relief Pitcher February 27th, 2012 at 9:34 pm

    “There is no 100% way to develop a starting rotation.”

    Ladies and gentleman this is the moral of this thread.

    No matter how many names get dropped or whatever age X pitcher debuted in the bigs … It’s all moot since every pitcher who has ever thrown a pitch in organized baseball developed differently.

  101. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 9:44 pm

    greinke didn’t settle down till 23-24

    jurrjens starts 22 done well

    josh johnson erratic till age 25

  102. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    jerkface-

    it looks to me that young isn’t a for sure way to do it and old isn’t either.

    i don’t think either of us is saying 23 isn’t a good age though.

    i would say i’d iike to see a good prospect have his first full season at age 23 … sometimes age 24.

    i just think for most good pitchers 21 is for sure too soon.

    22 is pushing it , but sometimes ok.

    i like 23 and even 24

  103. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 9:52 pm

    greinke didn’t settle down till 23-24

    jurrjens starts 22 done well

    josh johnson erratic till age 25

    Of course pitchers might be erratic in the beginning, or take a while to settle down, this is the point. That is them trying to meld experience with the tools they have. If Greinke debuted at 24 or 25 he might still be settling down at 27 or 28. No one comes off the lot at age 23 and is universally gang busters. You have to balance overall readiness with the need to challenge players at the major league level to ever find out if they are capable.

  104. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 9:53 pm

    i would say i’d iike to see a good prospect have his first full season at age 23 … sometimes age 24.

    i just think for most good pitchers 21 is for sure too soon.

    22 is pushing it , but sometimes ok.

    i like 23 and even 24

    Ok this is your personal opinion, and its not really born out in the numbers. Please stop using it to advance some kind of agenda against Michael Pineda.

  105. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 10:06 pm

    “Ok this is your personal opinion, and its not really born out in the numbers. Please stop using it to advance some kind of agenda against Michael Pineda.”

    i just showed that it’s your personal opinion that the top twenty start young. they don’t do well young always and often they don’t.

    please stop using stats that don’t prove anything.

    anyone who takes the time to look at those pitchers you gave will see there was a huge amount of erratic pitching performance there.

    and what’s this “please stop” crap.

    are you in pain? if you are take an ibuprofen .

  106. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 10:47 pm

    i just showed that it’s your personal opinion that the top twenty start young. they don’t do well young always and often they don’t.

    Uh they all started young, telling me they didn’t always start off WELL does not disprove anything. Players will struggle adapting to the major leagues, sitting them in AAA until they are 23-25 doesn’t make them more likely to succeed at the majors. Its a different ballgame.

    The point is getting to the show early means you are more likely to reach your experience threshold in your physical prime, which sets you up to be a top 20 type of player.

  107. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 10:50 pm

    It does pain me to see you try to advance these completely off the cuff notions using very little research to back up your points. Just like when I debunked your twins fetishism on how ‘they bring pitchers up the right way’ ( which I can see we’ve dropped since most of their pitching sucks now?) or that this whole tangent started with your off the cuff remark that you ‘like nova and d-rob and sometimes its good to have guys that are 25 instead of younger’ when both of them came up much younger than 25.

    Bring them up early so they are effective at 25, which means they are more likely to be beasting in their prime.

    Anyone who looks into your points realizes how shallow they are. All you do is cast a wide net to try and advance whatever agenda you’re on.

  108. randy l. February 27th, 2012 at 11:46 pm

    jerkface-

    you’re an inexperienced child who feigns interest in a subject to throw barbs when someone tries to meet you half way.

    there’s nothing stopping you from putting your ideas in the baseball world into practice.

    but personally i don’t think you have the guts to step into the mlb arena on any level.

    all you do is yap. you seem to have no courage to actually do anything in the baseball world.

    there’s no further need to waste each others time.

    i made an effort tonight.

    done.

  109. Jerkface February 27th, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    You’re the one with the connections, why aren’t you putting some team on the 23 and over plan? You’re a disingenuous debater that casually moves or changes the goal posts, who has admitted to making stuff up that sounds good to try and trump arguments, and who constantly tries to end debate by appealing to either your own experience or someone elses.

    I can only calls it like I sees it, and this is just another example of your incredibly transparent tactics.

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