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Girardi: Cano bats third, build a lineup from there

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 28, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

In the past, Joe Girardi has talked about his lineup as if the team is strong considering Robinson Cano in the No. 3 spot. Today he talked about his lineup as if Cano is locked into the No. 3 spot, and the rest of the lineup will be built from there.

“Is there an immoveable piece?” Girardi said. “I don’t think so. When you think about it, you’d probably like to hit Robbie third. That’s the one guy you’d like to keep.”

Otherwise, Girardi said he doesn’t have to be “married” to one lineup. He said he’s “not necessarily” locked into having Cano hit immediately behind Curtis Granderson, and he said flipping Granderson and Derek Jeter is “a possibility you could talk about.”

“We started talking a little bit the other day, some different things (about the lineup),” Girardi said. “I kind of want to see how guys look as we enter spring training, and we’ll try to iron out a lineup by Opening Day. It may take until then for us to make up our minds.”

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286 Responses to “Girardi: Cano bats third, build a lineup from there”

  1. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Not sure I like Cano in the 3 spot – but I’m sure if it doesn’t work out Girardi will adjust throughout the season.

  2. Northy February 28th, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    If he bats Cano third, then Jeter will have to bat 2nd if you want to go R/L/R/L…

  3. blake February 28th, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Also….there is enough information out there nownfor fans to have real conversations about their teams…..maybe not on personalities….injuries….and things of that nature……but if Joe Girardi decides to hit Eric Chavez in a playoff game because he thinks he coukd hit a HR….then there is enough information available where fans can intelligently debate whether that was the right call or not…..

    So I don’t think all conversations are “half assed “…..but I acknowledge that as fans we can’t have a full plate of information on every subject

  4. Warning Track Power February 28th, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Joe. Take all the time you need. The line-up is a top priority, so decisions don’t have to be made today or next week.
    I am very interested to see how the line-up will read at the top and #2 spot.

  5. blake February 28th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Hit Granderson 4th.

  6. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    They went back to Chamberlain in the rotation – he wasn’t particularly good. He was walking a ton of guys, he wasn’t able to pitch deep into games, he was looking pretty average. Then in the playoffs they used him out of the pen (because they didn’t need all the starters) and he was again a dominant pitcher. He seemed more relaxed, he was a ton more effective…so they flipped him and Hughes the next year.

    ——-

    How do you explain the Yankees commitment to Hughes in the rotation?

  7. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Jeter
    Granderson
    Arod
    Cano
    Tex
    Swisher
    Jones/Ibanez/Chavez
    Martin
    Gardner

  8. blake February 28th, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    “Jeter Granderson Arod Cano Tex Swisher Jones/Ibanez/Chavez Martin Gardner”

    I like :

    Jeter
    Arod
    Cano
    Granderson
    Tex
    Swisher
    Jones/aibanez
    Martin
    Gardner

    But that lineup is good too

  9. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    The average AL starter went 5.8 innings per start. Joba was at 5.79 if you remove the game where he got knocked out by a line drive after .2 innings. Could a guy be league average in his first full year without being informed its a huge negative or have it count against him? The Yankees looked at a player who was DEVELOPING and growing in the role and said “nope!”

    There are a lot of myths about Joba because he came up and was very, very good, so any sign of trouble post 2007 was looked at it in a hugely negative way instead of in the context of a player still learning their craft and coming into the game.

    Joba threw harder, even post injury, than most right handers. He went just as deep into games as other starters. He struck out a high amount for a starter, even if it was below his mean, and yes he walked guys but so have many starters in their first full year.

    Gio Gonzalez still walks guys. David Price walked nearly 4 per 9 his first year and now its down to 2.5 after 2 years.

    If the Yankees won’t let their prospects breath I fear we’ll see Banuelos the LOOGY and Betances elite setup guy in no time. Both have issues with command that probably won’t be fixed overnight and even if they appear fixed in the minors could reappear in the majors as they start working to acclimate themselves.

  10. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    Jeter Granderson Arod Cano Tex Swisher Jones/Ibanez/Chavez Martin Gardner

    ——-

    Like

  11. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    How do you explain the Yankees commitment to Hughes in the rotation?

    _______

    Are the Yankees seemingly committed to Chamberlain to the bullpen because of questions they have about this make-up/stuff/repertoire/stuff?

    Or because of questions about this arm/health/durability?

    If the latter, does his TJ surgery inform this bias, or were the Yankees the cause of it?

  12. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Tex has to hit 5th. Granderson 2nd or higher, but can’t hit past 5th. It sucks they have to give so many PA to jeter, but thats a given. I’d like to see Cano,granderson,a-rod some kind of 2-3-4.

    I could see Tex going to 2nd and Granderson to 5th vs lefties (or 6th maybe and switching with Swisher).

  13. luis February 28th, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Regardless of how good Hughes turned out to be in 2010, i don’t find any logic to the flip:

    -Joba had a better repertoire than Hughes

    -Joba was already stretched out (no innings limit)

    -Joba’s numbers as a starter were pretty good considering he had only a season and half of starting experience.

    The only reason i could find is that they were concerned that his body wouldn’t hold up as a SP.

  14. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    They went back to Chamberlain in the rotation – he wasn’t particularly good. He was walking a ton of guys, he wasn’t able to pitch deep into games, he was looking pretty average. Then in the playoffs they used him out of the pen (because they didn’t need all the starters) and he was again a dominant pitcher. He seemed more relaxed, he was a ton more effective…so they flipped him and Hughes the next year.

    ——-

    How do you explain the Yankees commitment to Hughes in the rotation?
    ————–

    I think it comes down to two things:

    1. Pride: They had a big three of Joba, Hughes and Kennedy – if in the span of four years none of them are starters with the team I don’t see you spin it as anything other than a disaster and with short relief all full up – your choices are Hughes starts or Hughes gathers dust.

    2. They have a lot of confidence in Rothschild and Rothschild has confidence in Hughes as a starter. And sometimes you just have to trust your guys to know what they’re doing.

  15. Warning Track Power February 28th, 2012 at 2:24 pm

    I agree that Tex must hit 5th.

  16. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Tex has to hit 5th. Granderson 2nd or higher, but can’t hit past 5th. It sucks they have to give so many PA to jeter, but thats a given. I’d like to see Cano,granderson,a-rod some kind of 2-3-4.

    I could see Tex going to 2nd and Granderson to 5th vs lefties (or 6th maybe and switching with Swisher).
    ————————–

    I have as much chance of batting 2nd for the Yankees as Tex does.

    It’s more likely that Swisher would be moved up to the 2 spot with Tex 5 and Granderson 6 against LHP.

  17. Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    hahahah peter abrham blocked me

  18. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    Are the Yankees seemingly committed to Chamberlain to the bullpen because of questions they have about this make-up/stuff/repertoire/stuff?

    Or because of questions about this arm/health/durability?

    If the latter, does his TJ surgery inform this bias, or were the Yankees the cause of it?

    ———-

    Well if it is health related concerns it was a pretty stupid decision considering Joba suffered the most significant injury of his life while relieving.

  19. Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    cause i responded to his tweet about arod with this

    @DocIac

    Reply
    Delete
    Favorite
    · Open

    @PeteAbe i kno its hard for a fat slob like urself to understand, but he didnt beat up arod, he mushed his face and still cldnt get takedown

  20. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    As long as they’re in the lineup, Alex will hit 4 and either Tex or Cano will hit 3 and the other will hit 5.

  21. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    Are the Yankees seemingly committed to Chamberlain to the bullpen because of questions they have about this make-up/stuff/repertoire/stuff?

    Or because of questions about this arm/health/durability?

    If the latter, does his TJ surgery inform this bias, or were the Yankees the cause of it?

    ———-

    Well if it is health related concerns it was a pretty stupid decision considering Joba suffered the most significant injury of his life while relieving.
    ——————–

    Joba also had injury issues as a starter both in college and the majors.

  22. Erin February 28th, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:12 pm
    Not sure I like Cano in the 3 spot

    *******************

    I like it a lot. ;)

  23. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Blake,

    I don’t think anyone is suggesting fans not have, express and defend opinions about baseball matters, but merely applying perspective to particular types of discussion and tempering conviction where applicable.

    Exactly why a certain player for traded and what that says about the people who made the decision, would be a specific example of where our limited knowledge should inform our position.

    Why a trade was or wasn’t made would be fully unknowable, therefore any extrapolated conclusions about what it says about the decision makers would be guesswork at best.

    Which is fine, nothing wrong with guesswork until one begins defending and advancing their guesswork as if it were the sky being blue.

    THAT I don’t get.

    Again, “because if we don’t, there won’t be any conversation” is strange way of justifying it to me.

  24. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    and Joba’s injury was probably more attributable to the fact that he looked to be weighing some 300lbs, not because he was relieving and not starting.

  25. Erin February 28th, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    JackCurryYES Watch Yankees Baseball Daily on YES at 7. Interviews with Brett Gardner and @PhilHughes65. Gardner predicts Yanks will have a parade in Nov

  26. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    and Joba’s injury was probably more attributable to the fact that he looked to be weighing some 300lbs, not because he was relieving and not starting.

    300 lbs = tommy john surgery? But fat pitchers stay healthier.

  27. Erin February 28th, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    Doc Iac- :lol:

  28. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    and Joba’s injury was probably more attributable to the fact that he looked to be weighing some 300lbs, not because he was relieving and not starting.

    300 lbs = tommy john surgery? But fat pitchers stay healthier.
    ————

    Players who are out of shape tend to get hurt – this is not a new phenomenon.

  29. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    Players who are out of shape tend to get hurt – this is not a new phenomenon.

    But fat pitchers tend to pitch longer, this is not a new phenomenon. He was also not 300 lbs, as you’re surely exaggerating.

  30. Warning Track Power February 28th, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    cause i responded to his tweet about arod with this

    @DocIac

    Reply
    Delete
    Favorite
    · Open

    @PeteAbe i kno its hard for a fat slob like urself to understand, but he didnt beat up arod, he mushed his face and still cldnt get takedown
    ********************************************************************

    I never grow tired of laughing at the expense of the red sox.

  31. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    “Well if it is health related concerns it was a pretty stupid decision considering Joba suffered the most significant injury of his life while relieving.”

    Gonna have to question the logic of that conclusion. That’s like taking old batteries out of something that uses their power all the time, putting them into a flashlight, and then blaming the flashlight when they wear out while you happen to be using it.

    If they are/were concerned about this durability to suggest relieving wasn’t a sure-fire preventer of further injury is missing the point.

    If you have concern how an arm is going to hold up under accumulated wear and tear, isn’t there some logic to lessening the accumulation?

  32. blake February 28th, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    “Again, “because if we don’t, there won’t be any conversation” is strange way of justifying it to me.”

    I don’t get the need to justify it in the first place…..

  33. Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    i am gonna miss his posts about obssing over arod and hes blind love for the red sox, so erin ur gonna have to retweet those for me :)

  34. Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    the drug tester in braun sample speaks

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02.....imessports

  35. DONNYBROOK February 28th, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    Granderson had a great offensive season outta the 2 Hole, so why mess with that? Cano hits lefties so what’s the big deal with batting Granderson and Cano outta the 2 and 3 Holes? Bring on the ST games. Most you guys are suffering from “cabin fever”, while some of you were already “punch drunk” to begin with. Bad combination.

  36. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    Players who are out of shape tend to get hurt – this is not a new phenomenon.

    But fat pitchers tend to pitch longer, this is not a new phenomenon. He was also not 300 lbs, as you’re surely exaggerating.
    ————

    Joba was out of shape, it’s more likely that was a contributing factor to his injury than how he was used.

  37. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    Gonna have to question the logic of that conclusion. That’s like taking old batteries out of something that uses their power all the time, putting them into a flashlight, and then blaming the flashlight when they wear out while you happen to be using it.

    ——–

    He was a full time reliever for 1.5 seasons when he got hurt.

  38. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    It is at all possible through no fault of the NY Yankees or conscious fault of his own Joba Chamberlain’s right appendage is naturally susceptible to injury?

    Yes or no?

  39. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    And Joba whatever he weighed, Joba was clearly out of shape.

  40. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    It is at all possible through no fault of the NY Yankees or conscious fault of his own Joba Chamberlain’s right appendage is naturally susceptible to injury?

    Yes or no?
    ————

    Yes.

    There were injury concerns about him before he was drafted.

  41. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    If you have concern how an arm is going to hold up under accumulated wear and tear, isn’t there some logic to lessening the accumulation?

    ———-

    What about the wear and tear that goes along with relieving?

    Are you sure it’s less in the bullpen?

  42. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    “He was a full time reliever for 1.5 seasons when he got hurt.”

    Maybe Joba Chamberlain only had/has so many miles in his tires?

    Maybe highway or city miles is besides the point? But the quality of the rubber?

  43. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    and Joba’s injury was probably more attributable to the fact that he looked to be weighing some 300lbs, not because he was relieving and not starting.

    300 lbs = tommy john surgery? But fat pitchers stay healthier. ————

    Players who are out of shape tend to get hurt – this is not a new phenomenon.

    ——————

    Prior, Wood, Harden, etc

  44. Erin February 28th, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    Doc Iac- I would if I followed him. ;)

  45. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    So let’s recap what we’ve learned. One, fat pitchers generally perform better than any other group and are the most likely to stick in the major leagues for a long time. Two, extreme pitchers, other than thin ones, tend to have much higher strikeout rates than average, and allow fewer runs. And three, thin pitchers are much less likely to have long careers than any other group, and those that do stay around are much more likely to end up in relief.

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....er-part-5/

    <——What Face is referring to

  46. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    Joba was out of shape in 08?

  47. Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    erin, u should…hes pretty amusing, in a sad pathetic way

  48. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    If you have concern how an arm is going to hold up under accumulated wear and tear, isn’t there some logic to lessening the accumulation?

    ———-

    What about the wear and tear that goes along with relieving?

    Are you sure it’s less in the bullpen?
    ————————–

    Red Sox were – that’s why they made Papelbon a closer. If the Yankees can replace Rivera with someone as good as Papelbon – I’ll be happy.

  49. luis February 28th, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    WOW Blake!!,

    Arod in the number two spot!!, that’s thinking out of the box…Could you elaborate?

  50. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    Red Sox were – that’s why they made Papelbon a closer.

    Papelbon also only had 1 pitch …

  51. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    “Are you sure it’s less in the bullpen?”

    I’m making the argument that 70 innings over the course of a calendar year could be considered less accumulated wear than 200+, yes.

    I’m mostly making the argument not to conclude why Joba Chamberlain IS in the bullpen, but why the Yankees MAY have put him there.

    Is it POSSIBLE the Yankees thought 60-70 innings were a safer (but NOT fool-proof) way to handle Joba Chamberlain specifically?

  52. Ys Guy February 28th, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    from Pabe:

    “FORT MYERS, Fla. — Bobby Valentine was asked his impression of Jason Varitek, who will officially retire on Thursday.

    “From afar, he was everything that you want in a guy who wore a ‘C’ to be. He was a man’s man. He was a big hitter when needed. He was the leader of the pitching staff. He was able to beat up Alex. All that stuff is good stuff. He was exactly what he was supposed to be,” Valentine said.

    He was able to beat up Alex. Priceless.”

  53. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    and Joba’s injury was probably more attributable to the fact that he looked to be weighing some 300lbs, not because he was relieving and not starting.

    300 lbs = tommy john surgery? But fat pitchers stay healthier. ————

    Players who are out of shape tend to get hurt – this is not a new phenomenon.

    ——————

    Prior, Wood, Harden, etc
    —————-

    Yes, professional athletes tend to get hurt. And when you have a host of in shape guys, even some of those are going to have injury issues. In some cases weight training makes them less flexible and thus more at risk for muscle and tendon tears. In some cases they are just plain fragile. But I don’t think there is anyone with a functional brain cell who would argue that the way to avoid injury in competitive sport is to be overweight.

  54. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    But I don’t think there is anyone with a functional brain cell who would argue that the way to avoid injury in competitive sport is to be overweight.

    But evidence points to this maybe being true, atleast for pitchers.

  55. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    Red Sox were – that’s why they made Papelbon a closer.

    Papelbon also only had 1 pitch …
    —————-

    He’s always had a fastball, slider, split. We all know this.

  56. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    Actually, there is a good question – why have Kerry Wood and Mark Prior come back (or tried to) as relievers as opposed to starters?

  57. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    But I don’t think there is anyone with a functional brain cell who would argue that the way to avoid injury in competitive sport is to be overweight.

    But evidence points to this maybe being true, atleast for pitchers.
    ———–

    Tell you what – here’s what you do…

    go out and invent something that everyone needs – patent it – sell it for billions of dollars – then make a bid to buy a team – there will always be one or two available.

    Name yourself the GM and manager like that kid from the movie about the Twins – sign Joba if he’s a FA – make him your top of the rotation starter.

    That is the only way Joba Chamberlain will be a regular starting pitcher in major league baseball again.

  58. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    “But evidence points to this maybe being true, atleast for pitchers.”

    I think it may be related to the fact that pitchers possess a skill and don’t necessarily have to be athletes. If they have that skill, even fat pitchers can often throw free and easy.

  59. blake February 28th, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    “Arod in the number two spot!!, that’s thinking out of the box…Could you elaborate?”

    When he’s healthy he gets on base a lot and handles the bat well…..Granderson strikes out too much and hits too many homers to be an ideal 2 hitter to me. I like him 4th between Robbie and Tex……because if they being in a Lefty to face Granderson then they have to deal with RH Tex unless they make another move…..and RH Tex mashes.

  60. DONNYBROOK February 28th, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    The circus continues in Boston with the Valentine remark concerning A-Rod. Same old Valentine. Gotta be the center of attention. So was the Capt. of the Titanic.

  61. Warning Track Power February 28th, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    Ys Guy February 28th, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    from Pabe:

    “FORT MYERS, Fla. — Bobby Valentine was asked his impression of Jason Varitek, who will officially retire on Thursday.

    “From afar, he was everything that you want in a guy who wore a ‘C’ to be. He was a man’s man. He was a big hitter when needed. He was the leader of the pitching staff. He was able to beat up Alex. All that stuff is good stuff. He was exactly what he was supposed to be,” Valentine said.

    He was able to beat up Alex. Priceless.”
    *******************************************************************
    There is a difference between someone placing their mitt in someone else’s face and getting beat up.
    Bill Lee was beaten up by the Yankees during that famous brawl. When Lee was walking off the field, leaning towards one side, that is what you call getting beat up!!

  62. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    Actually, there is a good question – why have Kerry Wood and Mark Prior come back (or tried to) as relievers as opposed to starters?
    ———————

    2 reasons:

    1. No one would sign them to start

    2. 80 innings is not as hard as 200.

  63. Erin February 28th, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    He was able to beat up Alex.

    **************

    :roll:

  64. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    “But evidence points to this maybe being true, atleast for pitchers.”

    I think it may be related to the fact that pitchers possess a skill and don’t necessarily have to be athletes. If they have that skill, even fat pitchers can often throw free and easy.
    —————-

    There is also a difference between a fat pitcher and a thick pitcher. Roger Clemens was thick but no one would ever consider him fat. Guys like CC and Wells are more the exception than the rule.

  65. Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    warning track

    —-

    exactly, ima bouncer in a night club, ive been pushed in the face many times, i wouldnt say i got beat up

  66. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    He’s always had a fastball, slider, split. We all know this.

    Eh.. no. He didn’t. He had 1 good pitch. He has developed more pitches along the way, but at the time he had 1 pitch. 1 pitch and shoulder concerns.

    Its like Daniel Bard. Bard has a slider, it isn’t very good but its there. He is a 1 pitch guy. Now he is going to be a starter? Not likely.

  67. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    I’m mostly making the argument not to conclude why Joba Chamberlain IS in the bullpen, but why the Yankees MAY have put him there.

    Is it POSSIBLE the Yankees thought 60-70 innings were a safer (but NOT fool-proof) way to handle Joba Chamberlain specifically?

    ———

    This reminds of a Professor who once told me to never respond to someone who asks a question that starts with “Is it possible”

  68. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    “He was able to beat up Alex.”

    He is so gay for Alex it’s sad. NTTAWWT

  69. DONNYBROOK February 28th, 2012 at 2:55 pm

    A player hits “too many homers” to bat in the 2 Hole???? HAHAHAHAHAHA.

  70. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:55 pm

    Roger Clemens was thick but no one would ever consider him fat.

    Looks a lot like Joba

    http://www.thesunblog.com/spor.....lemens.jpg

  71. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:55 pm

    “I don’t get the need to justify it in the first place…..”

    You’re going in circles Blake.

    If someone is going to post something in a discussion forum, which by definition invites feedback, isn’t it inevitable some of the feedback IS going to be “how the heck do you have enough information to reach that conclusion”?

    You seem to be arguing for an agreed condition that nobody ask that question. That we come here with the shared agreement NOT to scrutinize each other’s arguments too closely.

    Not only is that unreasonable, I don’t understand the desired effect?

    Are we conversing to try to find and share truths and compare notes, or to read our own fiction?

  72. luis February 28th, 2012 at 2:55 pm

    Blake,

    I like your approach….having said that, don’t you think that Arod has lost too much speed to be placed in that spot?

  73. spidanyc February 28th, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    The best Yankee lineup would be….

    Gardy
    Jeter
    Cano
    Arod
    Tex
    Grandy
    Swish
    Ibanez/Nunez/Chavez/Jones
    Martin

  74. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    That is the only way Joba Chamberlain will be a regular starting pitcher in major league baseball again.

    ————

    He would at least have a significant role on the team unlike the role he has on the Yankees.

  75. Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    spidanyc February 28th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
    The best Yankee lineup would be….

    Gardy
    Jeter
    Cano
    Arod
    Tex
    Grandy
    Swish
    Ibanez/Nunez/Chavez/Jones
    Martin

    —-

    grandy 6?

    jeter will lead off and grandy will not bat 6th

  76. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    Go back and look at everything that was written about Joba when he was drafted:

    Great potential but shoulder and weight issues. If healthy and he keeps his weight under control he could be a top of the rotation starter.

    I just read that over and over again in at least 10 different sites.

    Seems to me they were right on.

  77. blake February 28th, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    “You’re going in circles Blake.”

    So are you man…..you’re striving for some ridiculous commenting standard or something that is totally unrealistic in this forumn.

  78. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    Seems to me they were right on.

    So they predicted the Yankees would shove him in the pen after 1 mixed season starting?

  79. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    Great potential but shoulder and weight issues. If healthy and he keeps his weight under control he could be a top of the rotation starter

    ——–

    He had a triceps issue in college, not shoulder.

  80. blake February 28th, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    “I like your approach….having said that, don’t you think that Arod has lost too much speed to be placed in that spot?”

    Eh…I think the hitting matters more than the baserunning…..honestly how they stack it doesn’t really matter all that much at the end of the day.

  81. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    He’s always had a fastball, slider, split. We all know this.

    Eh.. no. He didn’t. He had 1 good pitch. He has developed more pitches along the way, but at the time he had 1 pitch. 1 pitch and shoulder concerns.

    ———-

    Plus wasn’t Papelbon drafted as a reliever and had not started a game since HS?

  82. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    That is the only way Joba Chamberlain will be a regular starting pitcher in major league baseball again.

    ————

    He would at least have a significant role on the team unlike the role he has on the Yankees.
    —————

    Might be the case.

    In my opinion one of three things will happen:

    Rivera doesn’t retire – Joba’s non-tendered.

    Rivera does retire – Joba becomes the closer

    Rivera does retire – Joba’s setting up for Robertson.

  83. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    “This reminds of a Professor who once told me to never respond to someone who asks a question that starts with “Is it possible””

    I’m seeing people searching for answers an logic as to why someone with the stuff and previous performance record of Joba Chamberlain was put in the bullpen in 2010, seemingly permanently.

    The question “IS IT POSSIBLE they see less innings maybe mitigating an inherent injury risk?” strikes me as relevant to that discussion.

    That you can’t simply respond “yes” is perplexing.

  84. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    “you’re striving for some ridiculous commenting standard or something that is totally unrealistic in this forumn.”

    Not unrealistic at all.

    Incredibly easy in fact.

  85. austinmac February 28th, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    If AROD is healthy in the spring, I would go with:

    Jeter
    Garnderson
    AROD
    Cano
    Teixiera
    Swisher
    Jones/Ibanez
    Martin
    Gardner

    This keeps the L-R-L in tact while not having a 40 homer guy with a .260 average hitting first.

  86. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    Plus wasn’t Papelbon drafted as a reliever and had not started a game since HS?

    Yes. He was closer in college.

  87. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    He’s always had a fastball, slider, split. We all know this.

    Eh.. no. He didn’t. He had 1 good pitch. He has developed more pitches along the way, but at the time he had 1 pitch. 1 pitch and shoulder concerns.

    ———-

    Plus wasn’t Papelbon drafted as a reliever and had not started a game since HS?
    ————-

    He was a reliever in college but was converted to a starter in the minors.

    Papelbon was drafted in 2002

    Started 6 games in 03 (got hurt)
    Started 24 games in 04
    Started 18 games in 05

  88. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    The question “IS IT POSSIBLE they see less innings maybe mitigating an inherent injury risk?” strikes me as relevant to that discussion.

    That you can’t simply respond “yes” is perplexing

    ———

    I tried to with my anecdote that it is a stupid question which is why I didn’t indulge you.

    Of course it’s POSSIBLE.

  89. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    Plus wasn’t Papelbon drafted as a reliever and had not started a game since HS?

    Yes. He was closer in college.
    ————

    And a starter in the minors.

  90. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    Too bad we don’t have Jesus to knock the crap out of the Red Sox pitching staff.

    Thanks, Cash.

  91. spidanyc February 28th, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 2:57 pm
    spidanyc February 28th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
    The best Yankee lineup would be….

    Gardy
    Jeter
    Cano
    Arod
    Tex
    Grandy
    Swish
    Ibanez/Nunez/Chavez/Jones
    Martin

    ?-

    grandy 6?

    jeter will lead off and grandy will not bat 6th

    ——————————————————————-

    I’m just telling you what I feel would be the most productive lineup. Gardy needs to lead off everyday. Yankees need a speedster at the top.

  92. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    Ok, I can deal with either the whining about Joba or the whining about Montero – not both at the same time…later folks.

  93. pat February 28th, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    Haudricourt
    #Brewers Ryan Braun says he has no comment on statement by Dino Laurenzi Jr.

  94. Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    I’m just telling you what I feel would be the most productive lineup. Gardy needs to lead off everyday. Yankees need a speedster at the top.

    —-

    i hear ya, i wasnt knockin ur line up,

    i just dont think grandy should bat 6th, in ur line up id ether switch him with jeter or tex

  95. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    The Red Sox?

    He didn’t hit all that great against Pawtucket.

  96. austinmac February 28th, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    It seems to me that everyone should be entitled to express their opinions, but what is aggravating is when people contend their opinions are fact.

    We are folks blogging at home or work with no inside knowledge or information. That doesn’t mean our opinions can’t be correct, and even more correct than the experts. However, prognostication of furure occurrences or stating what would have happened if something in the past had been different, are simply opinions.

    Opinions expressed as such don’t bother me. Know it alls, who actually think they have the one answer on a regular basis, do.

  97. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    And a starter in the minors.

    Its different taking a player with 1 exceptional pitch and trying to turn him into a starter, than taking a starter with 4 pitches who has always started and dumping him into relief.

  98. Pat M. February 28th, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    Watching the MLB. network and their doing defensive metrics for 2nd baseman and James has Zorbist as the top glove at 2nd in run prevention….Say What ????? Harold Reynolds went nuts due to the absurdity of this

  99. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    Gardy needs to lead off everyday. Yankees need a speedster at the top.
    ///

    His leadoff numbers are not good.

  100. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    austinmac

    As I have posted before, I think it’s implicit that no one here has factual conclusions, only, at best, fact-based ones. Ideally, we marshal the published facts, stats and intuitive observations to reach well-reasoned opinions.

    What’s impossible to rebut is the “Yankees know more than you” meme.

    That’s a non-starter and the beginning of a slippery slope to cutting off interesting discussions.

    Similarly, when people claim to have inside sources, they may well have accurate information, but who knows for sure because it cannot be verified.

  101. luis February 28th, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    For the record:

    I am not whining, i’m just expressing an opinion and trying to find the logic of the reasons that moved the FO to make them….Until now, nobody as far as i know has given me any reason to change my view in regards of Joba. Same thing with the trade of you know who.

  102. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    Montero vs. Boston:

    1.367 OPS

  103. dan l February 28th, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    Girardi is a turd and needs to be flushed! He is the worst manager in the game!

    The base lineup needs to be against right handed pitching…
    Gardner
    Granderson
    Alex
    Cano
    Tex
    left handed Dh
    Jeter
    Swisher
    Catcher

    The base lineup needs to be against left handed pitching…
    Gardner
    Granderson
    Jeter
    Cano
    Tex
    Alex
    right handed dh
    Swisher
    Catcher

  104. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Been away from the forum for pretty much a week and am jumping in now with a post, without having read any of the posts on this thread. So if what I am posting is redundant, I apologize. But since I’ve been hearing it on EEI for the last two days, I thought I would bring some really good news to the forum. This comes under the category of “Oh what fun!” It appears that there is a lot of Suxian dissension going on because of Bobby V’s edict (most likely promulgated by management) about no drinking in the clubhouse. Lots of crying by at least one of the EEI hosts who feels these are grown men – guess he hasn’t watched them much – who shouldn’t be treated like little children. Then I guess Tito weighed in and said he thought it was wrong for Valentine to do that – at least that’s what I heard. Not to be overly critical of Tito, but he fiddled while the Titanic sunk (sorry about mixing my metaphors) so he’s the last one who should be sticking up for drinking in the clubhouse!

    Then there’s the added dimension of Hayseed L. Beckett complaining about/giving warning to? the alleged clubhouse snitch.

    Today’s EEI hosts, both of whom I really respect, said this has all the makings of an eventual clubhouse explosion. They also said that they believe that Beckett and all the other players actually know who the clubhouse snitch is, and they think it’s a matter of time before something really terrrible erupts in the clubhouse because of it.

    They are all pretty much agreed, the EEI hosts, that the Sux do NOT make the playoffs this year.

    :D

    Ah life is good. And it is going to get nothing but better.

    If the fawning Sux syncophant from the West Coast is here under another identity, I will be happy to make a bet with him, my bet being that the Sux don’t sniff the playoffs this year. A credible fawning syncophant puts his money where his mouth is.

    For anyone who believes the Sux are going to be “dangerous” and I am underestimating them, step right up to the betting booth! And I’m not a betting person per se. But when it comes to my belief in the Sux, I will put my money where my mouth is 24-7.

    OH WHAT FUN!!!

    :)

  105. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    His leadoff numbers are not good.


    They were really good in 2010 .290 .412 .376 .789

  106. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    luis: You Know Who =

    He Who Shall Not Be Named

    The Only Begotten Son….

    Yahweh Incarnate

    Masher Extraordinaire
    :D

  107. DONNYBROOK February 28th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    ANY projected Yankee lineup that moves Granderson outta the 2 Hole is askin’ for trouble. Grandy is doing fine there, so why mess with success? Cano batting 3rd should be set-in-stone also. The other 7 batters you can mess with all ya want. Granderson and Cano have laid claim to the 2 and 3 Holes based on their performance in those spots. You guys are sounding like Tony LaRussa, and in this instance that is a bad thing.

  108. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 3:21 pm

    “Montero vs. Boston:

    “1.367 OPS”

    Hard to believe anyone is citing 12 ABs with a straight face, but okay.

    You see the Red Sox starter and team ERA in September?

    EVERYONE was Babe Ruth against the Sox last September.

  109. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    ANY projected Yankee lineup that moves Granderson outta the 2 Hole is askin’ for trouble. Grandy is doing fine there, so why mess with success?

    Granderson’s best numbers come from the 6 hole. 1.000 1.000 1.000 2.000

  110. luis February 28th, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Hi Trish!!! love it!! :))

  111. luis February 28th, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    :)

  112. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:26 pm

    In 264 plate appearances, leading off, Gardner put up a line of .230/.322/.330. How does that make one believe he could lead-off? He hits righties better than lefties, but still… how could one be so sure Gardner should lead-off? Because he’s fast?

    News flash! After the first inning, the order doesn’t mean a whole heck of a lot, unless talking about somebody getting more plate appearances. And looking at the numbers from last season Jeter should get more plate appearances than Brett. BTW, Gardner will be hitting in front of some pretty darn good hitters anyway. So batting him 9th makes plenty of sense to me. Is it for the best? Maybe… maybe not. But to say it’s stupid to bat him 9th is way off.

  113. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    “What’s impossible to rebut is the “Yankees know more than you” meme.”

    There is a good reason for that.

    “That’s a non-starter and the beginning of a slippery slope to cutting off interesting discussions.”

    Why can’t a discussion be interesting, insightful and worthwhile simply by exploring possibilities rather than making accusations and bitterly arguing over the merits of respective guesswork?

    And “how do you know the Yankee FO doesn’t appreciate offense up the middle based on ONE trade IS an interesting discussion for some, which you also can’t remove from the equation.

  114. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    You hurt the words that I love best

    And cover up the truth with lies

    One day you’ll be in the ditch

    Flies buzzing around your eyes

    Blood on your saddle

  115. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    “Hard to believe anyone is citing 12 ABs with a straight face, but okay.”

    Hard to believe somebody would cite such a tiny sample size, period. Stuff like that makes me dismiss anything else that person says, because only a fool would lean on such a thing in an argument.

  116. DONNYBROOK February 28th, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    - JERKY -
    Once again, we gotta Blogger going the Helen Keller route. Moving Swish outta the 2 Hole put a dent in his numbers. Don’t want to see that happen to Grandy.

  117. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    The Red Sox?

    He didn’t hit all that great against Pawtucket.

    ——–

    Can you post his splits vs Pawtucket?

  118. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    There are ways to discuss decisions made by the team without coming off like you know more than they do.

  119. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    More Sample Size

    Won’t make you wise

    If you’re not blessed

    With Knowing Eyes

    For they can see

    Past the disguise

    of qualifying

    Sample Size

  120. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    I don’t do poetry.

    Using a larger sample size may not make one wise, but using a small sample size most definitely makes one sound silly.

  121. Bronx Jeers February 28th, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    A professor once told me never to read a paragraph that starts off with “News flash!”

    !

  122. pat February 28th, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    ESPNs new feature- Bobby V interprets Yankee history to please a Sox fanbase…..

    http://espn.go.com/blog/boston.....ter-moment

  123. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    luis – it is absolutely delicious! What a joy to see the Sux being scrutinized for once. I am so looking forward to the clash of the egos (Bobby V. vs. the big boys in the clubhouse – gee, ya think maybe Pukeylisp will clock him if Bobby V. ticks him off???) as well as the overgrowth of personality clashes now that there’s a clubhouse snitch.

    :)

  124. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    “Can you post his splits vs Pawtucket?”

    Nope, I was responding to the bait with a joke.

    I have no idea what his splits were vs Pawsox. Thought that was obvious.

    My bad.

    I think Jesus Montero is going to be a really good hitter.

  125. luis February 28th, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    Sometimes you are so close to the issue that you loose some perspective, being in the outside sometimes is good. Only time will tell if the FO made the right choice, until then allow us to have our opinions

  126. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:18 pm
    Montero vs. Boston:

    1.367 OPS
    _____
    Double today in the intrasquad game. :)

    Working on his catching. :) Story about the latter here:http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ari27.html

  127. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    What about playing Pawtucket is a large sample size and where are the stats?

  128. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    In 264 plate appearances, leading off, Gardner put up a line of .230/.322/.330. How does that make one believe he could lead-off? He hits righties better than lefties, but still… how could one be so sure Gardner should lead-off? Because he’s fast?

    News flash! After the first inning, the order doesn’t mean a whole heck of a lot, unless talking about somebody getting more plate appearances. And looking at the numbers from last season Jeter should get more plate appearances than Brett. BTW, Gardner will be hitting in front of some pretty darn good hitters anyway. So batting him 9th makes plenty of sense to me. Is it for the best? Maybe… maybe not. But to say it’s stupid to bat him 9th is way off.

    He hit .217 .294 .317 .611 batting 9th, so maybe they ought bat him 7th or 8th where he hits best? He hit fine lead off in 2010. He entered 2011 after having wrist surgery so he was rusty, he can lead off because he is patient, doesn’t swing and miss at strikes, can bunt (despite what people say), and is fast and will steal (despite what people say).

    If Gardner next season is somewhere inbetween 2011 and 2010 then he should probably be leading off, atleast against righties. But if doing that doesn’t push Jeter to the bottom third (vs righties) then its not worth it, and he should not bat lead off as they have too many other hitters who should be getting PAs.

  129. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    trisha, lol! :)

  130. austinmac February 28th, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    Trisha,

    I watched the movie Titanic. Their were violinists, but no fiddlers.

    It is my fervent wish that Beckett and Valentine get into it. Then, I hope they both lose.

  131. Yanks78 February 28th, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    “I sometimes have a REALLY hard time seeing the upside of being a Yankee fan for some of you.

    There is NO joy in winning the World Series if this is the expectation. There can’t be any acknowledgement of accomplishment. ”

    Fans want to see the Yankees win with their own guys like Montero

    What’s the fun in winning with other team’s players? We’re not the Mets here. We have 27 rings and we don’t have to desperately win. Why not try and develop some of your own players once in a while?

    I can see how winning is no longer as enjoyable and the passion isn’t as strong as it was, say, pre-2009. At least change it up a little and let the fans root for the homegrown guy while still winning their 90+ games.

    The Montero trade really subdued a lot of people and it’s understandable. It’s the same ol, same ol’.

  132. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    pat, it sounds like the Sux experience is devolving into more of a joke than it already is.

    Just wow.

  133. luis February 28th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    Fans want to see the Yankees win with their own guys like Montero

    ======================

    YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  134. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    “Sometimes you are so close to the issue that you loose some perspective, being in the outside sometimes is good. Only time will tell if the FO made the right choice, until then allow us to have our opinions”

    I’m sorry, I’m not trying to take anybody’s opinions away. I’m just saying that some people speak as if they know better, while others give their opinion while being more humble. That’s where the “the front office and coaches know more” response comes in. I do agree that it’s kind of a buzzkill, but some people deserve to have that fact thrown in their face.

  135. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
    “Hard to believe anyone is citing 12 ABs with a straight face, but okay.”

    Hard to believe somebody would cite such a tiny sample size, period. Stuff like that makes me dismiss anything else that person says, because only a fool would lean on such a thing in an argument.
    _____
    Tell this to Girardi, the king of small sample sizes.

    As for Montero, his sample size includes his minor league numbers. We are not discussing some lesser hitter here, so use all the resources that are available to you when evaluating him.

  136. Erin February 28th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    They also said that they believe that Beckett and all the other players actually know who the clubhouse snitch is,

    ******************

    Hmmmm…anybody up for a rousing game of Guess the Red Sox Clubhouse Snitch??? :P

  137. Yanks78 February 28th, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    J Alfred,

    They were intentionally walking Jesus and pitching around him in must-win games late in the season with their season on the line… I think that is enough proof how much they value not only his raw talent, but how advanced he is at such a young age. And he only had like 20 ABs up to that point.

    Man, it sucks to think about what could have been

  138. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:43 pm

    You don’t think he’ll be a “really good” hitter, you’re just covering your ass while you take pot shots at him.

    You have no idea what he is – you don’t have any kind of ability to figure out a Shelly Duncan from a Jesus Montero. But keep talkin’. Keep saying he can’t hit minor league pitching.

  139. luis February 28th, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    Erin,

    My guess…………….Youkilis or Pedi

  140. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    This stuff about the Yankees only using “outside” players is really annoying. Jeter, Cano, and Gardner all came from within the organization, and all are regulars in the starting lineup. Nova is a #3 starter, who came up with the team. Hughes could be the #5, and he came up with the team. And then there are Rivera, Robertson, and Logan that are key members of the bullpen. Chamberlain could join those three by mid-season as well.

    And the idea that somebody was a bigger fan pre-2009, because they hadn’t won in a while is ridiculous. Oh no! They hadn’t been in the World Series for 6 years, and hadn’t won it in 9. Oh no!

  141. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    Yanks78 February 28th, 2012 at 3:43 pm
    J Alfred,

    They were intentionally walking Jesus and pitching around him in must-win games late in the season with their season on the line… I think that is enough proof how much they value not only his raw talent, but how advanced he is at such a young age. And he only had like 20 ABs up to that point.

    Man, it sucks to think about what could have been
    ///

    Buddy, you said it. This team has been entrusted to the wrong people.

  142. UnKnown February 28th, 2012 at 3:46 pm

    I love that Doc lac, P. Abe is a clown.

    I guess if Valentine’s one memory of Varitek out of his whole career is pushing Alex in the face that is not that much of a compliment. Not sure, but Varitek probably doesn’t want that to be his defining moment in his career.

    I am going to really hate Valentine, this I already know. And hate him with a passion.

  143. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 3:46 pm

    Not for nothing, Yanks78, but Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Jason Giambi, Kevin Brown, Alex Rodriguez, Bobby Abreu, Tex, Quantrill, Sturtze, et al. doesn’t necessarily scream home grown. And they were all pre 2009.

    I love home grown. But the home grown chips are what attracts the stud players. And you know that Yankee fans, in general, are nothing if not immediate in their need to win.

    I’m a good-time mosier, so for me, nothing is more delightful than watching our kids grow – and having them stick around.

    I’m in the minority. Fans want homegrown until homegrown disappoints them. Then they want to kill the homegrown and get him out of town ASAP. Ask Mark Melancon about that.

  144. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    As for Montero, his sample size includes his minor league numbers. We are not discussing some lesser hitter here, so use all the resources that are available to you when evaluating him.
    ///

    Don’t waste your breath. They don’t know the difference.

  145. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    “Tell this to Girardi, the king of small sample sizes.

    As for Montero, his sample size includes his minor league numbers. We are not discussing some lesser hitter here, so use all the resources that are available to you when evaluating him.”

    I think Girardi does the opposite… he waits too long to make decisions (using a larger sample size). He waited to see more out of his pitchers, thus using the 6-man rotation too long. And he waited to see if Tex could bounce back, leaving him in the 3-hole too long.

    As for the Montero thing I choose not to get involved in that. He’s gone. It’s over. Was he a great hitter, making him a great prospect? Hell yeah. But he’s gone, so unless I’m a Mariner fan I’m not going to spend much time on him. At least not anymore, as the Pineda trade is far enough in the past that it’s wore out it’s welcome as a topic to me.

  146. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    Yanks78, I misread your post. I thought you were saying that pre-2009 we dealt with more home-grown players.

    Sorry.

  147. Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    unknown

    hahah ya valentine is now doggin the flip play, hes a joke,

    as for pete, i felt a little bad after callin him a fat slob, but theres no way around it, hes fat

  148. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    A lot of rookies hit big then flame out. Not that Montero will, but those that remember Kevin Maas should agree that early career numbers are not in indicator for future success.

  149. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 3:50 pm

    “Fans want to see the Yankees win with their own guys like Montero”

    I don’t recall the same outrage over losing Austin Jackson or Ian Kennedy.

    Fans would be fine with the trade if they thought the Yankees “won” (ugh) the trade.

  150. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    And some Yankee fans want to see the team win. Whether or not they use home-grown players is a little ways down the list of fan priorities.

  151. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    I felt bad when Tyler Clippard had to go. There are a lot of great prospects that ended up elsewhere in the name of getting a top gun.

    Perils of the business I’m afraid.

  152. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    I don’t recall the same outrage over losing Austin Jackson or Ian Kennedy.

    Neither were as well advertised as Montero for the team. A-Jax was not a national big prospect. Kennedy had already been up and down and had turned off the fans with his postgame comment.

    Its like the difference between Jeter and Mike Lowell.

  153. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    I don’t understand how the same people that are sure Montero is going to be a future HOFer, are also so certain that he’d be better for the team than Michael Pineda.

  154. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    Austin Jackson and Ian Kennedy are good players.

    They’re not monumental talents.
    Get it?

    They’re not being as mourned is relative to what was lost. They got back Granderson, ’nuff said.

    Later.

  155. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    Why can’t Pineda be as key to the Yankees as Granderson currently is, thus making the Montero/Pineda trade make as much sense as the AJax-Kennedy/Granderson one?

  156. luis February 28th, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    Don’t worry, but i’ll tell you something. Most of the opinions both in favor and against have very sound logic behind it. But when someone just uses the ” Management knows best”, is basically that they have ran out of arguments and completely loses me. I have always been a logical person, meaning that if you raise good arguments in a logical way, probably iwould agree with that person, or a t least i would respect he or she a great deal.

  157. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    “Don’t worry, but i’ll tell you something. Most of the opinions both in favor and against have very sound logic behind it. But when someone just uses the ” Management knows best”, is basically that they have ran out of arguments and completely loses me. I have always been a logical person, meaning that if you raise good arguments in a logical way, probably iwould agree with that person, or a t least i would respect he or she a great deal.”

    I agree with you. And I’m not calling out anybody in particular. I just saw a debate about saying such a thing, and there are times when it needs to be said. It doesn’t sound like that line should be used on you, though.

  158. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 3:59 pm

    “You don’t think he’ll be a “really good” hitter, you’re just covering your ass while you take pot shots at him.”

    J.AP, I have a hard time understanding how you know what I think about Jesus Montero considering you don’t read my posts.

    Oh wait, that wasn’t genuine?

    Shocking.

    And you are showing your lack of coherency by arguing I don’t really think he’ll be a good hitter. What possible reason would I have to say so if I didn’t think it?

    Not only do a think he’ll be a very good, unlike some of your brethren, I HOPE he becomes a very good hitter.

    Again, you put your lack of capacity on full display by continuing to make a bogeyman out of anyone who is not theatrically responding to this issue like you are.

    And it is theater. We’ve moved well beyond genuine expression. The baiting on the subject is not happening out of defiance – you and others are making it clear you can do what you like and not one can tell you different.

    Yes, it’s 7th grade all over again.

  159. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 4:01 pm

    “But when someone just uses the ” Management knows best”, is basically that they have ran out of arguments and completely loses me.”

    Me too. That’s a bad argument.

    “Management knows more”, on the other hand…

  160. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    ““Management knows more”, on the other hand…”

    Good catch.

  161. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    “Neither were as well advertised as Montero for the team. A-Jax was not a national big prospect. Kennedy had already been up and down and had turned off the fans with his postgame comment.

    “Its like the difference between Jeter and Mike Lowell.”

    But that is LESS about “homegrown” and more a simple evaluation of talent. The “homegrown” is really beside the point.

    As I said, fans would be fine with the trade if they thought the Yankees “won” (ugh) the trade. As they were with Granderson.

    This isn’t primarily about Montero being “homegrown”, is all I’m pointing out.

    That just plays better.

  162. ET February 28th, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    The media said we won the Kennedy/Jackson for Granderson trade.

    We all knew Kennedy had no future here too after signing CC and AJ. He was trade bait and fans knew it. Jackson was also a guy who most people felt was not good enough offensively to be a real solution for us.

    Montero can be a star hitter at a time when we’re going to need it with all the aging players and impending free agents.

    We also didn’t NEED Pineda. He was a luxury. We likely will NEED Montero in the not-so-distant future. Cashman is going to be searching the ends of the earth for young offensive talent in the coming months.

  163. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 4:06 pm

    Stuckey,

    You have really got to get your ego under control.

    I should have stated, to satisfy your anality, that I read most all posts that are about four lines long.

    Sorry to disappoint you, that sort of disqualifies you 9 of 10 times, I think we both know, from my reading list.

    On this most recent one, I stopped at ‘wasn’t that genuine?’

    It was genuine, alright: I find your brand of sententious, moral correctiveness and really – just hot air – to be indigestible. See, I did try to keep from being rude about it, but since your ego can’t accept that you might not be so compelling that I wouldn’t pretend not to read you, but actually not be interested… I would have left it at “nothing personal,” and meant it.

  164. blake February 28th, 2012 at 4:07 pm

    “We also didn’t NEED Pineda. He was a luxury. We likely will NEED Montero in the not-so-distant future. Cashman is going to be searching the ends of the earth for young offensive talent in the coming months”

    Stuckey will ask you for documentation of facts in 3….2…….1…… :)

  165. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    Just to be clear: I don’t mean to say I don’t ready anyone hear that isn’t four lines or less.

    I read tomes on people I enjoy reading.

    Now, good day, indeed.

  166. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    “The media said we won the Kennedy/Jackson for Granderson trade.”

    How is that different from the Montero trade?

    Not only did the media award that one to the Yankees (and I don’t think it was even close), I’m still waiting for someone here to point me to a poll that suggests Yankee FANS don’t think the Yankees won (ugh) the trade….

  167. luis February 28th, 2012 at 4:08 pm

    Stuckey,

    Point taken…..They do know more, but not necesarily that leads to better moves, as i said before i do understand the logic behind the trade for instance, but i think is flawed….Again i don’t want to get in to this argument all over again because at this point is pointless, let’s just wait and see how things play out??

  168. PacoDooley February 28th, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    Like everyone, I would love to see Joba as a quality starter. But I don’t buy it that he is a legit starter option and that the team is making a mistake holding him back. What team would want a guy that could be a quality starter end up as a middle innings reliever? He would be a much more valuable trade chip and a more important team component if he was a starter. They are trying to find the way to maximize his value to the team. So I am going to give the team the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is never going to be a quality big league starter.

  169. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:09 pm

    But that is LESS about “homegrown” and more a simple evaluation of talent. The “homegrown” is really beside the point.

    No, but the HOMEGROWN aspect is still prominent. Homegrown, good, and exciting. What more does a fan need? I want exciting prospects to be big stars on the team. Thats why I was against trading Hughes for Santana, and why I didn’t like the Yankees multiple attempts to trade Montero.

    Less exciting prospects can be traded, but the gold types I’d like to see stay with the team. Thats, generally, how teams get good, by having really good home grown players.

    Jeter, Posada, Rivera. They are/were very good. Losing a player that might become one of those types is bad.

  170. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    Although it is pointless to get into a debate about Montero – and as someone who was definitely stung and stunned to lose him – I’m going to do it anyway.

    Though some might not agree with the logic involved, there is logic involved IMO. And digging in one’s heels and refusing to see it is, well, short-sighted IMO.

    LIKE IT OR NOT – it appears that the Yankees intend to keep their DH position fluid. We’d be silly not to acknowledge that some of the older players with long-term contracts will likely end up occupying that position. DH is not a position that the Yankees want to fill with a long-term contract or with a super star. They need to have it a revolving door. That’s the reality and to pretend otherwise makes no sense.

    From what I have gathered, the Yankees see their catching future in the hands of Austin Romine. At that point Jesus becomes odd man out since catching was his position.

    I hated losing Montero. I was on record as saying it was never going to happen. I’m blown away by his hitting ability, no question.

    I understand why the Yankees made the move they did. Maybe if Hughes and AJ had shown great success this wouldn’t be happening – or at least it wouldn’t be happening right now. I now believe Montero was a marked man. I think it was J AL who noticed when he wasn’t playing winter ball that it appeared he might be a trading chip.

    I wish we still had Montero. I understand why we don’t.

    It hurts still, but it makes sense if you take the time to put all of the pieces together in a puzzle that fits the Yankee modus operandi. If you design the puzzle to fit what you think their modus operandi should be (as opposed to what it is) then yes, the trade stinks.

  171. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    1. We won’t know who “won” (ugh… I agree) the Montero/Pineda trade for probably a few years.

    2. A lot of fans had to know Montero could be trade bait, as he was set to be dealt to Seattle for Cliff Lee not long ago. And with catchers like Romine, Sanchez, and Murphy behind Jesus it shouldn’t have been that big a shock at all.

    3. Montero could be a star on offense in the future… true. On the flip side Pineda could be a start on defense/pitching in the future. Which should the team be more concerned with? I’d say pitching, as getting a good/young pitcher (especially a possible ace) is a lot harder to acquire. Just look at what the As got for Gonzalez.

    4. True and False. The team may not have needed Pineda, but a strong pitcher to put in a duo with Sabathia is more than just a luxury to have. The team did not need Montero though, as the offense did just fine without him last year and is basically the same this year.

    5. young offensive talent is not a need right now at all. It’s something to consider in the future to possibly replace Swisher and/or Granderson, but it’s hardly something that Cashman should look into in the coming months.

  172. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    “The media said we won the Kennedy/Jackson for Granderson trade.”

    The media also said we won the Montero/Pineda trade…

  173. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 4:11 pm

    “I would have left it at “nothing personal,” and meant it.”

    Meant it and still do, and as I said at the time, whether it was true or not.

    I just don’t think it was genuine.

    Because the first rule of internet forums is people who announced their intentions, rather than just acting on them, do so for a reason.

  174. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    “Again i don’t want to get in to this argument all over again because at this point is pointless, let’s just wait and see how things play out??”

    Deal.

    I hope it works out for both team and all 4 players. Can we agree on that as well?

  175. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    Good post, trisha

  176. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:14 pm

    I wish all the best for Montero and Noesi. Just don’t beat the Yankees, lol.

  177. Pat M. February 28th, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Hi Tricia……I still love the Pineda trade

  178. Yanks78 February 28th, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    The trade is not being evaluated as a player for player swap because that is a secondary concern.

    It is being looked at based on what it means for the team in the present and future, based on their needs, impending needs, resources, and availability of talent in the future. It was an unnecessary trade that makes people question the motives of the FO and the flaws in their evaluation process.

    Then there is the intangibles angle about fans getting attached to Montero, wanting to see him succeed here, and root for him as a homegrown star. That is the human, non-quantifiable side of being a fan, speaking. That, in turn, reinforces or makes the fan feel uncomfortable about the future of the organization and their propensity to lust for other team’s players while not valuing their own players enough. That opens the door for further discussion of their flawed, mediocre development process, which all inevitably come back to the Montero-Pineda trade.

    It’s all intertwined. It’s not terribly surprising either.

  179. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    “We also didn’t NEED Pineda. He was a luxury.”

    Uh, with AJ on the chopping block and Hughes an uncertainty, how does Pineda become a luxury?

  180. luis February 28th, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    Stuckey,

    You bet….I hope i am as wrong as i can be….I am rooting for Pineda to become the ace he has the potential to be…..I’ll root for Montero as long as is not against the yankees, and i hope Noesi and the other kid do well as well

  181. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    stuckey, I’m very at peace with you believing I am spellbound by your commentary here and am deceiving you deliberately, to somehow undermine a fellow poster who I’m secretly ntimidated by, or whatever you think it is.

    But for the rest here, I was being honest. I actually was trying to split the difference on hurting your feelings (imagine that); I wasn’t reading you, for reasons stated, so I wanted to explain rather than to just summarily ignore you without explanation.

    On the whole, I ignore the self-appointed moderators who try to discuss the discussion and give it some evaluative stamp. Speaking strictly for myself – reeeeeeeeeallly boring.

  182. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:20 pm

    How was it an unnecessary trade?

  183. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    Thanks Bryan.

  184. luis February 28th, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    Trisha,

    Very good post, not as good as the one you wrote a few days ago, but very good in deed. Stick around.

    Yanks78,

    Very good post as well, but at this point in time a think everyone is entrenched in his or her position, let’s just and see what happens. For the record, i hated the trade for the reasons that you just brought up, and the economical impact as well.

  185. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    luis,

    It’s beyond this trade, now, for me.

    It’s the Joba handling and the trade. It’s the managing in the postseason.

    I don’t want these two running the Yankees anymore. I’d like the see Oppenheimer be the GM, and Pena manage. I want them out.

  186. blake February 28th, 2012 at 4:22 pm

    As I said yesterday ….(which triggered an avalanche of Yankees vs posters discussion for some reason) ….I wouldn’t have made the trade….however I can understand why they did it and at this point all we can do is hope they are right and that Pineda is as good as he can be.

  187. luis February 28th, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    Oops!! let’s just wait and see…….sorry

  188. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    Pat M – the night I heard about the trade, I said that I had two reactions. First I nearly passed out when I heard it on the radio, hours after it happened apparently, but I heard it for the first time close to midnight. I literally couldn’t breathe when they announced Montero had been traded. And I cried. Then when I heard that we were getting Pineda in the deal, I felt excitement.

    I was definitely conflicted over the trade, but the more I thought about the logic involved, the more I understood why it happened. As sad as I was to lose Montero, I was equally psyched about getting Pineda.

  189. UnKnown February 28th, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    http://espn.go.com/blog/boston.....at-up-alex

    —–

    Take a look at that video on that page and you will see Pete Abe giggling like a little school girl when Valentine mentions the Arod quote. I never realized how big of a chump Pete was. Ridiculously immature…

  190. blake February 28th, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    “How was it an unnecessary trade?”

    We have to see what happens…..but if you’re of the opinion where you believe in the young pitching they already had….and that Montero was potentially a vital piece of the lineup going forward….then I can see how it coukd be viewed as unnecessary …..especially with the Kuroda signing.

  191. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:25 pm

    “As I said yesterday ….(which triggered an avalanche of Yankees vs posters discussion for some reason) ….I wouldn’t have made the trade….however I can understand why they did it and at this point all we can do is hope they are right and that Pineda is as good as he can be.”

    Beautifully put.

  192. austinmac February 28th, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    On the issue of average annual salary calculations, why don’t the Yankees renegotiate with players who have a lower current average salary, abrogate those contracts by having the player sign a contract including the current lower salary years with the later, more expensive years so the average annual salary is lower?

    For example, if Cano’s next two years cost $15 M, why not reach an agreement with him now to include those years in his next contract so the lower $15M years will be included in the average annual salary?

  193. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    Thanks luis. I’m a little out of practice since I lost a week on the forum!

    ;)

  194. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    How was it an unnecessary trade?

    They traded from a position of weakness to bolster a position of strength.

  195. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    The media almost always goes with the conventional wisdom and lowest common denominator logic.

    Why would they think the Yankees’ pitching is covered when they are willfully ignorant of it being any good? It’s always a trade that’s needed to get what they believe the Yankees don’t have (even when they have it).

    How sexy is it for them to write, they can sign a Kuroda to stabilize the staff. You don’t understand how mainstream media rolls.

    I’d have been shocked if they’d expressed disapproval.

  196. Crawdaddy February 28th, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    “They traded from a position of weakness to bolster a position of strength.”

    Saying it over and over again doesn’t make it true.

  197. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 4:29 pm

    Jerkface is right.

    Of course, the conventional wisdom believes the opposite.

    Always been that way, always will be that way.

    Outta here.

  198. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:29 pm

    “We have to see what happens…..but if you’re of the opinion where you believe in the young pitching they already had….and that Montero was potentially a vital piece of the lineup going forward….then I can see how it coukd be viewed as unnecessary …..especially with the Kuroda signing.”

    I get that. Personally, while I’ll root for the young guys in our farm system, I don’t like leaning on them in the future. I’d rather a young pitcher join the Yankees in a low pressure spot, which in NY is still pretty darn high pressure.

    Take Banuelos. He can join the rotation within the next couple of seasons, and instead of being leaned on at the top of the rotation, he can start at the bottom of it (I figure CC, Pineda, Nova, and Hughes may well be in the top spots).

    I wouldn’t feel so good as a Rays fan that may be leaning on a Matt Moore to come in and help carry a team in the playoffs. Could it work? Absolutely, but I understand the desire to have something more certain.

  199. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:29 pm

    Unknown, he’s the only one who laughed. A true horse’s ass.

  200. luis February 28th, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 4:22 pm
    luis,

    It’s beyond this trade, now, for me.

    It’s the Joba handling and the trade. It’s the managing in the postseason.

    I don’t want these two running the Yankees anymore. I’d like the see Oppenheimer be the GM, and Pena manage. I want them out.

    ======================================

    I hear ya, i am on that boat as well…..i want Girardi and Cashmam out, because i think they have done a great deal of harm to the team in the long run….but as a Yankee fan i have to hope that i am wrong and that this will turn out right.

    But at this time nobody is going to convince anyone.

  201. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    Warren, Phelps, Mitchell, Banuelos, Betances. All represent potential mid-rotation starters or better (in the latters case) and all are ready to pitch in the majors sometime in the next season and a half. They have zero players that profile as above average hitters in the majors within 2 seasons of breaking in right now. Let alone one as well regarded as Montero.

  202. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 2:54 pm
    “He was able to beat up Alex.”

    He is so gay for Alex it’s sad. NTTAWWT
    __

    I thought Pete said that. Turns out it was Bobby V. My bad.

  203. UnKnown February 28th, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    When asked to describe Varitek as a catcher, Girardi said: “Outstanding. Very smart back there. Good defensive catcher. Really knew how to handle a pitching staff.”

    ——–

    Seems Girardi’s comments had more substance to them then even Valentine did. The meltdown in Beantown this year might even top last years. Going to be difficult but with the addition of Valentine I can see it happening.

  204. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    Saying it over and over again doesn’t make it true.

    How is it not? They have zero bats, and lots of pitchers on the farm.

  205. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:32 pm

    “They traded from a position of weakness to bolster a position of strength.”

    There’s more to an offense than the DH spot. Especially when you consider that the Yankee DH spot is for somebody batting in the lower 1/3 of the lineup. The offense scored the 2nd most runs in the AL last season, so I don’t see it as a weakness at all.

    And what strength are you speaking of? The Yankees had Garcia, Hughes, Burnett, and Nova filling out the rotation after the #1. And all four of those guys have question marks. A don’t consider having four question marks a strength at all.

    If you simply mean in terms of having the spot filled, then you’re right. But since when is just filling a spot a means to success?

  206. ET February 28th, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    The Yankees were the best team in the AL East without any additions. Just adding Kuroda would have provided enough insurance.

    How much better does Pineda make them? They were the best team in he East without him or with him. Yes it safeguards against injury, underperformance, etc. but those same questions apply to Boston/Tampa as well. Not worth trading away your best young hitter to give yourself a bigger cushion over Boston.

    If they had made this trade last winter, after Cliff Lee spurned us and Boston had their great winter, it would have been received much more favorably. We had just lost Lee/Andy, Boston made all these great moves, we needed to do something. Fine.

    The playoffs are the ultimate crapshoot if there ever was one. CC is a pedestrian (and that’s being kind) postseason pitcher and this group of offensive talent is prone to October deep freezes with the bat. Thus, Pindea doesn’t guarantee them anything once they get to October. If the Phillies couldn’t even get out of the 1st round with their monster rotation, what does that say?

    Pineda doesn’t affect the true bottom line of the team, except they will be talked about more favorably on Sportscenter and MLB network. However, in the near future, they had no reason to trade their best young bat.

  207. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    On the issue of average annual salary calculations, why don’t the Yankees renegotiate with players who have a lower current average salary, abrogate those contracts by having the player sign a contract including the current lower salary years with the later, more expensive years so the average annual salary is lower?

    Because its dumb company policy to not do extensions for contracted players.

  208. munson15 February 28th, 2012 at 4:33 pm

    Trisha…your 4:10 post was spot on.
    And you can never have enough pitching.

  209. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    “They traded from a position of weakness to bolster a position of strength.”

    Ridiculous. Unless you believe that the kids down below were ready to don their Yankee uniforms.

    After watching several pitchers being rushed up, I was happy to see the Yankees learned their lesson and were willing to give them all the time they needed to develop properly.

    I also don’t believe that the offense is a position of weakness. But if you do, then I posit to you that of pitching and offense, pitching is the more important to shore up. I don’t think that’s any great surprise.

    And a rotation of CC, Nova, and Kuroda hardly seems like a position of strength, especially when pitching wins championships.

  210. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    The World Series isn’t won or lost based on the farm system. And when you ignore the downside of a prospect’s future, it certainly makes your case sound better. Unfortunately I can’t ignore the downside.

  211. luis February 28th, 2012 at 4:34 pm

    Crawdaddy February 28th, 2012 at 4:28 pm
    “They traded from a position of weakness to bolster a position of strength.”

    Saying it over and over again doesn’t make it true.

    =================================

    But, it is true….we had plenty of pitching prospects and very few position prospects

  212. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    “I actually was trying to split the difference on hurting your feelings (imagine that); I wasn’t reading you, for reasons stated, so I wanted to explain rather than to just summarily ignore you without explanation.”

    You owe me no explanation, nor is one desired or required. If you’ve concluded I’d take offense, then you really don’t get anything I’ve ever said at all.

    “On the whole, I ignore the self-appointed moderators who try to discuss the discussion and give it some evaluative stamp. Speaking strictly for myself – reeeeeeeeeallly boring.”

    But you aren’t doing that. You’ve ended two of your last three posts with “Later” and “good day” but here you are back for more.

    You’re trying real hard to appear disinterested, but your continued statements to that effect are counter to stated intentions.

    But this should be the end of this, because we’re six paragraphs in, which means you’ve stopped reading by now… right? ;-)

  213. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    munson, thanks! Great to see you back.

    :)

  214. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:36 pm

    Just signing Kuroda this offseason doesn’t take care of a possible problem in the future. Having a guy that has already had success in MLB, and still has 5 years of team control left, along with a ceiling even higher than what we saw in 2011, is a pretty good thing.

  215. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    blake is just punking me now. :shock:

  216. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    “Especially when you consider that the Yankee DH spot is for somebody batting in the lower 1/3 of the lineup. T”

    If the Yankees have a DH that puts up a .900 OPS, he’s not hitting in the bottom of the lineup for long. But even if he did (whoever it is), who cares? Production is important 1-9.

    “The offense scored the 2nd most runs in the AL last season, so I don’t see it as a weakness at all.”

    It may not be a weakness in 2012 (although they did not hit well v. RHP in 2011), but unless Jeter/A-Rod/Tex v. RHP hit in accordance to their career numbers, they are at risk of it becoming a weakness sooner or later.

  217. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    “But, it is true….we had plenty of pitching prospects and very few position prospects”

    So you’re a bigger fan of Yankee prospects than you are of the actual Yankees. Because when it comes to the actual Yankees, what you say just isn’t true.

  218. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    And what strength are you speaking of? The Yankees had Garcia, Hughes, Burnett, and Nova filling out the rotation after the #1. And all four of those guys have question marks. A don’t consider having four question marks a strength at all.

    If you simply mean in terms of having the spot filled, then you’re right. But since when is just filling a spot a means to success?

    Pineda also has question marks, so what the heck? Collect as many question marks as possible? This isn’t Mario. Given their track records, the Yankees were in fine position next season after acquiring 1 more starter. They could have got Kuroda (also a question mark!) and it is reasonable to suggest they’d have a very good rotation. Moreover, even with those question marks: They have an entire AAA rotation capable of stepping in. And noesi if they didn’t trade him! Who is sometimes more highly regarded than Nova.

    They have absolutely no one who can step in on the offense and perform above replacement level.

    Now if you say, even with injury they would still be fine offensively and make the playoffs. Ok. But the same is said for the pitching. They were going to make the playoffs. With pitching being so volatile, I don’t see the need to waste premium assets on projects.

  219. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:40 pm

    “If the Yankees have a DH that puts up a .900 OPS, he’s not hitting in the bottom of the lineup for long. But even if he did (whoever it is), who cares? Production is important 1-9.”

    Assuming the top 6 in the lineup are weak, then having a DH hitting .900 would be great, so that he could be moved up. But that’s not the case in NY.

    You’re not seeing the forest from the trees. Montero is a great looking tree, but if you look at the forest you’ll realize it’s already full of beautiful trees. So losing one great looking tree does not ruin anything.

    As for pitching CC is a beautiful tree as well. Unfortunately, after him, you have a bench of trees that are “meh”, and could grow to look nice. So the “pitching forest” could use some improvement.

  220. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    “But, it is true….we had plenty of pitching prospects and very few position prospects”

    luis, this isn’t the first time that the Yankees have had a promising player in a position that isn’t available for long-term use.

    The fact of the matter is that the Yanks were 2nd in the majors in runs scored last season and 11th in team ERA. From that perspective, it would appear that the weakness was pitching and not hitting.

    I don’t know whether the kids down below are ready to be called up. My guess is that they are not. The Yanks deal with the immediate. And again, I don’t ever want to see someone called up before their time. We’ve seen that be the ruination of more than one budding prospect!

  221. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    “How much better does Pineda make them?”

    If Pineda has a dominant October, probably a lot…

    “Thus, Pindea doesn’t guarantee them anything once they get to October.”

    Indeed he does not. Neither would Montero.

    How is this a point in favor of either side of the issue?

    “Just adding Kuroda would have provided enough insurance.”

    I thought Montero was all about the “not to distant future”?

    Is Kuroda about that too?

  222. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    If you’re so scared to give the yankee pitching prospects a chance, and continue to just rely on other teams pitchers because they seem safer, then there is no way the Yankees will ever be able to create a home grown rotation.

    Why would anyone be scared of Phelps or Warren or Noesi coming up to the big leagues? They have hundreds of minor league innings with very good stats. Those are the kind of guys that should get shots. And they still would have had 5 major league capable pitchers in the rotation with MLB experience and Noesi as the long man.

  223. luis February 28th, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:36 pm
    Just signing Kuroda this offseason doesn’t take care of a possible problem in the future. Having a guy that has already had success in MLB, and still has 5 years of team control left, along with a ceiling even higher than what we saw in 2011, is a pretty good thing.

    ===========================

    If the guy we traded for was Clayton Kershaw or to a lesser extent King Felix, i might have understood (i rather have traded Betances in that instance, not Montero), but for a pitching project that has a lot of upside but he hasn’t realize it yet, no way.

  224. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    The fact of the matter is that the Yanks were 2nd in the majors in runs scored last season and 11th in team ERA.

    Ah but they were first in ERA+. Context!

  225. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Oops sorry, second in the MAJORS in ERA+, but first in AL.

  226. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    “It may not be a weakness in 2012 (although they did not hit well v. RHP in 2011), but unless Jeter/A-Rod/Tex v. RHP hit in accordance to their career numbers, they are at risk of it becoming a weakness sooner or later.”

    What about Cano? Granderson? Swisher? Gardner? By the team ARod is really slowing down there are guys like Mason Williams who could step in. The team is not in need of MLB-ready offensive prospects now or in the next couple of years.

    And as for Pineda being a question mark that’s true. But the question isn’t “starter or middle reliever”, it’s “ace or middle of the rotation starter”. Not all questions are equal.

  227. djsunyc February 28th, 2012 at 4:43 pm

    gardner
    jeter
    cano
    arod
    granderson
    tex
    swisher
    dh
    martin

    in reality, it should be:

    gardner
    swisher
    cano
    arod
    granderson
    tex
    jeter
    dh
    martin

  228. munson15 February 28th, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    luis…how have Girardi and Cashman done damage to the team in the long run? Just asking.

  229. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    I thought Montero was all about the “not to distant future”?

    Is Kuroda about that too?

    Kuroda allows betances, banuelos to develop more. And allows Phelps, warren, or mitchell to come up in a more controlled fashion. Thus the not to distant future is preserved

  230. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    “Assuming the top 6 in the lineup are weak, then having a DH hitting .900 would be great, so that he could be moved up. But that’s not the case in NY.”

    Having another .900 OPS hitter is always great.

    “You’re not seeing the forest from the trees. Montero is a great looking tree, but if you look at the forest you’ll realize it’s already full of beautiful trees. So losing one great looking tree does not ruin anything.”

    I’m not only referring to Montero, so I think the tree analogy may apply more to you.

    Jeter will be 38; A-Rod will be 37; Tex hasn’t hit well v. RHP in two years; Granderson may have had an out of context season.

    They may need a big bat, again, sooner rather than later.

    So the only meaningful analogy to a tree is that the lumber they carry may not do what it once did.

  231. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    “If the guy we traded for was Clayton Kershaw or to a lesser extent King Felix, i might have understood (i rather have traded Betances in that instance, not Montero), but for a pitching project that has a lot of upside but he hasn’t realize it yet, no way.”

    Betances the key to a package for Kershaw or Felix? The Mariners and Dodgers would hang up the phone and never bother speaking to Cashman ever again.

    Of course it would have been better to get Clayton or Hernandez, but you may as well say the Yankees should have signed Prince Fielder to a 1 year deal to be their DH, because the chances of that happening are just as good as what you said.

  232. luis February 28th, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    That’s the fundamental difference between us, i don’t see Montero as a DH, i see him as a catcher and eventually as a first baseman (when Tex contract is up).

  233. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 4:46 pm

    “What about Cano? Granderson? Swisher? Gardner? By the team ARod is really slowing down there are guys like Mason Williams who could step in. The team is not in need of MLB-ready offensive prospects now or in the next couple of years.”

    Cano.

    I already mentioned that there are question marks surrounding Granderson.

    Swisher is a nice player, who should be permitted to walk after this season.

    Gardner may not hit enough to be a starter.

    Mason Williams is years away. To say he can be projected to replace A-Rod at this point is silly.

  234. ZMAN February 28th, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    Kuroda is a bridge to Betances/Banuelos.

    Plus if they had to, they could gone after Cain/Hamels or made a trade for someone in the future.

    Who is replacing Montero? Cashman getting the ghost of Carlos Lee/Abreu in a salary dump?

    Swisher is probably going to walk after this year. Martin might price himself out of his range. Grandy is going to demand $20+ million next year. Where are the replacement coming from?

    Finding a pitcher to slot behind CC is easier than finding a young stud bat to pair with Cano for the next 10 years as the aging players and impending free agents leave.

  235. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    “Just signing Kuroda this offseason doesn’t take care of a possible problem in the future. Having a guy that has already had success in MLB, and still has 5 years of team control left, along with a ceiling even higher than what we saw in 2011, is a pretty good thing.”

    Absolutely.

    The one question that nobody has answered satisfactorily, i.e., in terms of Yankee reality, is where Montero was going to be once Arod and Jeter needed to occupy the DH position, something that will be happening soon enough.

    It’s not enough to say that Montero could be shuffled to any other position just because of his hitting. It doesn’t happen that easily. How many people pulled their hair out watching average-armed outfielders run on constantly?

    If Montero was a true defensive star and they had traded him, I would be having a much harder time with this. I personally want a defensive star at the catcher’s position. I’ll give up offense for that any day of the week. Unfortunately, Romine trumped him in that and he ended up a player without a true position. It’s a sad reality, but nevertheless a reality. How many really good shortstops down below ended up elsewhere because it’s Jeter’s position. It’s not enough to be great. You have to have somewhere to play.

  236. blake February 28th, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    “I wouldn’t feel so good as a Rays fan that may be leaning on a Matt Moore to come in and help carry a team in the playoffs. Could it work? Absolutely, but I understand the desire to have something more certain.”

    The only issue with that is that they traded for essentially a prospect….a guy with one season of track record …..so while I think Pineda has a chance to be really special…..the security he provides isn’t quite they same as if they had traded for way his ex teammate Felix.

  237. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    “They may need a big bat, again, sooner rather than later.”

    But the word “may” should be in bold and italics when it comes to what you’re saying, because there’s more reason to feel good about the offense now and in the next couple of years, than to feel that way about the pitching.

    If you think the young pitchers are all going to pan out… great. I can’t say they’ll all fail either. The true answer is somewhere in the middle. But again, you’re talking about prospects. You’re not talking about sure things at all.

    And again, it’s easier to acquire top hitters than it is top pitchers. Whether that’s in a lower cost via trade, or speaking in terms of volume in the free agent market.

  238. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 4:49 pm

    “Kuroda allows betances, banuelos to develop more. And allows Phelps, warren, or mitchell to come up in a more controlled fashion. Thus the not to distant future is preserved.”

    I think projecting Sabathia (whose on the other side of 30) and Nova and ?-?-? is a perfectly valid position that could well prove to be a strong one.

    Not sure I’d go to far as to to say the future is “preserved” as if that is a certain thing.

  239. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    “That’s the fundamental difference between us, i don’t see Montero as a DH, i see him as a catcher and eventually as a first baseman (when Tex contract is up).”

    luis, I think it’s reasonable to say that the Yankees saw Romine as the better catcher. So Montero was not going to be a catcher for the Yankees. They were not going to let him hang around the DH position when they needed it to rest players from time to time and eventually move a position player into it. He had nowhere to be.

    That’s the reality, sad as it is.

  240. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 4:52 pm

    “Cano.

    I already mentioned that there are question marks surrounding Granderson.

    Swisher is a nice player, who should be permitted to walk after this season.

    Gardner may not hit enough to be a starter.

    Mason Williams is years away. To say he can be projected to replace A-Rod at this point is silly.”

    And there are no questions regarding Banuelos, Betances, Phelps, Warren, Mitchell, or anybody else in the Yankee organization. I’ll take a guy that has done “it” in MLB as a question before I’d take a guy in the minor leagues with questions.

    “The only issue with that is that they traded for essentially a prospect….a guy with one season of track record …..so while I think Pineda has a chance to be really special…..the security he provides isn’t quite they same as if they had traded for way his ex teammate Felix.”

    Of course Pineda doesn’t offer the same assurance. But Felix was not an option. At least not for a reasonable price. Hell, Montero for Felix was not going to happen. So what are you arguing? That the Yankees should have dealt Jesus for Felix or Kershaw instead? Sure, I agree. Unfortunately a little thing called “reality” is getting in the way.

  241. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    luis, I think we may have identified another fundamental difference between us. I value pitching and defense more than I do offense. I always have. And seeing the Yankees 2nd in offense last year and 11th in pitching, well my automatic sensibilities point toward needing pitching more than offense.

  242. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    “But the word “may” should be in bold and italics when it comes to what you’re saying, because there’s more reason to feel good about the offense now and in the next couple of years, than to feel that way about the pitching.”

    There is nothing more conditional in my posts than in yours.

    The overriding point is that smart organizations prepare for foreseeable contingencies, and the issues I listed above all present foreseeable risks.

    “If you think the young pitchers are all going to pan out… great. I can’t say they’ll all fail either. The true answer is somewhere in the middle. But again, you’re talking about prospects. You’re not talking about sure things at all.”

    Where did I mention young pitching?

    “And again, it’s easier to acquire top hitters than it is top pitchers.”

    Present the facts to support this contention.

    Far more top or near top pitchers were moved this offseason both in free agency and via trade than young, top impact hitters.

  243. BX33 February 28th, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    A-Rod is 37 and can’t even stay healthy or hit for power anymore
    Jeter is a singles hitter who makes no impact on the game
    Gardner is a defensive player
    Swisher is likely gone after next year, giving us the need to find a 25/80 OFer.
    Martin is overrated by the brass but he still can hit some. Not easy to replace as a FA.
    Granderson – we have no idea of ’11 was an outlier. If it wasn’t, he’s going to get a monster contract after next year.
    Tex is now a .240 hitter who can’t hit RHP.
    Ibanez sucks. Chavez sucks, Whoever they get for the DH sucks.

    I’d take my chances with some collection of CC-Noba-Hughes-Joba-Manny B-Betances-Garcia-Mitchell-Noesi-Warren to carry us to October than I would having to deal with this lineup reconfiguration in the next few years. We’re going to pay Melky Cabrera $10 mil a year?

    Also remember, if they really wanted to, there were 2 elite under-30 pitchers set to hit the market this winter. The only offensive players available are guys 30 or older who are bound to get drastically overpaid. Victorino/Melky are not changing the fortunes of the team. Ethier is a platoon player and Hamilton is too much trouble.

  244. munson15 February 28th, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    I think it’s always been easier to get a big bat, through trade or free agency, then it is to get a stud pitcher. How many times have we watched the Yankees sign big name pitchers, ( Whitson Randy Johnson etc. etc. ) only to watch them fall apart when they get to NY. There were 2 pretty hitters available this year in free agency.

  245. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    I think projecting Sabathia (whose on the other side of 30) and Nova and ?-?-? is a perfectly valid position that could well prove to be a strong one.

    Not sure I’d go to far as to to say the future is “preserved” as if that is a certain thing.

    Pineda isn’t a question mark ? The Yankees aren’t getting a guy with 5 seasons of good performance, so its not like Pineda preserves anything. You asked how Kuroda could be used to preserve the future, I told you how it would be possible, by allowing the natural development of a strong farm system to mature to fruition.

    It may not even be CC, Nova, ? ? ? . You could have a guy like Garcia in there or any of the other types who sign a 1 year deal each year. We could have had Edwin Jackson, Oswalt, Kuroda this year. And you only need a few of Warren, Phelps, Betances, Banuelos, and Mitchell (and Noesi in this case) to build going forward. Even with Pineda we don’t have anyone other than CC going forward with any major experience, but that is what happens when you want cost controlled pitching.

    Pineda is just another in the line of not-establish-starters that the Yankees are flush with, while Montero is the only good bat worth a darn in the whole system. If you cash that chip, it shoulda been for a bigger prize.

  246. Bret The Hitman February 28th, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    MLB Spring Training Video of Pineda:

    TAMPA, Fla. — Rolling out of bed and having to face Michael Pineda in early-morning batting practice probably ranks among the most unpleasant wakeup calls that the Yankees will experience all year…

    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....8;c_id=nyy

  247. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Hmmmm, if we really do have so many question marks, maybe this guy should replace Cashman:

    http://images4.wikia.nocookie......dler_7.png

  248. luis February 28th, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    munson15 February 28th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
    luis…how have Girardi and Cashman done damage to the team in the long run? Just asking.

    ======================

    1) We have no impact bat that can protect Cano, the next one is Sanchez and he is two or three seasons away. We have an aging offense.

    2) It won’t happen this season, but next you can be sure that we will be looking for a bat, that means probably the B’s are in play.

    3) Pineda is still a work in progress, what happens if he doesn’t developes a third pitch??, we have a middle of the rotation pitcher at best, that we have plenty of them ( Phelps, Warren, just to name a few) or a relief pitcher….So we traded our best position prospect for a relief pitcher ( Yikes !)

    4) Montero becomes a regular catcher with 700-800 ops, this is going to hurt.

    If this happens they should be fired, because the team won’t be in good position to compete in two or three seasons, we will be filled with bad long term contracts, and the rebuilding process will take longer, especially with the new CBA

  249. Tom in N.J. February 28th, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Sherman speculated, via MLBTR, that Martin “could sign for $40MM over four years next offseason.”

  250. Bret The Hitman February 28th, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    More on Pineda…

    “Really good stuff,” Molina said. “That’s the first time I caught [Pineda]. It looks like he has power in everything he throws. It looked good for me. They know what they’re doing. That’s why they made the move.”

    *******

    Oh these ML catchers are so brainwashed.

  251. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    I always have. And seeing the Yankees 2nd in offense last year and 11th in pitching, well my automatic sensibilities point toward needing pitching more than offense.

    They were only 11th in ERA, which ignores park effects and league. They were 4th in the AL, 1st in ERA+. The NL teams above them are teams like the giants, dodgers, braves, and padres. Teams that pitch in PITCHERS PARKS in weak leagues.

    You cannot be so down on Kuroda, talking about the difference in league, and then fail to adjust your own perception of the Yankees against that same league.

    The Yankees did exceptionally well last year in a neutral type park that is not-neutral for HRs, in a league that is better offensively than the NL, and in a division full of hitter parks.

    Thats why their ERA+, which adjusts for these things, was 2nd only to the Phillies, who pitched out they minds in a hitters park.

  252. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 5:00 pm

    “Finding a pitcher to slot behind CC is easier than finding a young stud bat to pair with Cano for the next 10 years as the aging players and impending free agents leave.”

    Here’s my problem with this and it’s simply a mathematical one.

    There are 5 starting pitchers and 9 hitters.

    What have we ALL agreed on that last 3 seasons or so. The Yankees line-up has NOT hit on all cylinders and has been riddled with lost time to injury and down years. But they continue to be at the TOP of runs scores even during these years where we can all see the uneven and disappointing performance of individual members of the line-up.

    The Yankee formula, in recent years, in the regular season, has been DEPTH in the line-up.

    Recently it seems we’ve been moving towards the idea that Montero was successor to Arod, the huge stud in the middle of the line-up, which apparently is seen as some necessity.

    Now I’ll be first to agree Arod WAS the difference in 2009. But that’s only worked once in 8 years now and I think pinning the responsibility of Montero being the postseason stud is a little on the optimistic side.

    Yankees can and I believe will continue to put up offensive numbers that will get them to most postseasons and give them a chance at PS success by putting a deep line-up out there.

    I believe over 162 games an everyday player (particularly a defensive one that at least does not harm) is more valuable than any one pitcher, but I believe the opposite is true in the PS.

    Like a hockey goalie, I think a starting pitcher has a greater chance to effect a series outcome than any one hitter, unless he’s ridiculous like Arod was in 2009.

    Chasing after a BIG, hardthrowing arm to try to maximize a postseason advantage strikes me as a pefectly valid course of action.

    I’m surprised it’s so summarily dismissed or ignored in this debate.

  253. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    Hmmmm, if we really do have so many question marks, maybe this guy should replace Cashman:

    This guy seems to have some sound ideas…

    http://www.nndb.com/people/422/000031329/lesko.jpg

  254. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    “the issues I listed above all present foreseeable risks.”

    So are mine. You’re once again placing way more confidence in prospects than I do. Which is fine, but that doesn’t mean my lack of confidence in them is unwarranted.

    “Where did I mention young pitching?”

    I assume you didn’t… sorry. I’m talking to too many people at once, and not paying enough attention to names.

    “Present the facts to support this contention.

    Far more top or near top pitchers were moved this offseason both in free agency and via trade than young, top impact hitters.”

    Facts? Really? I can’t be the first person you’ve heard say such a thing. I mean, it’s certainly not something a came up with on my own.

    Pujols, Fielder, Cespedes, Cuddyer, Ramirez, Reyes, and Rollins were hitters that got contracts of 3+ years this offseason.

    Meanwhile you had Wilson, Darvish, and Beuhrle as the only pitchers that got deals that long.

    Trades? No, not as many “big” bats were traded, but they didn’t have to be thanks to having 7 impact bats in FA (not including Beltran, who… when healthy is most definitely an impact bat). And it’s not like Gonzalez or Cahill are projected as aces. Latos is probably the best arm moved this winter, in terms of effectiveness and age.

  255. Bret The Hitman February 28th, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    Molina said that Pineda mixed in five or six changeups, a pitch that the 23-year-old has been taking instruction from pitching coach Larry Rothschild to hone.

    “He’s working on it,” Molina said. “It’s pretty good, from my standpoint. He’s a power pitcher, and any power pitcher needs soft stuff. I think if he can do it, it will help a lot.”

    Yankees manager Joe Girardi said that the team will be looking for Pineda to use his changeup in exhibition games, beginning with his March 5 start against the Phillies, and will not worry about any runs that result from it.

    “It is important to him, and it is important that he works on it in Spring Training,” Girardi said. “He’s a guy that we’re not going to get real caught up with the numbers. We just want him to develop that pitch.”

  256. munson15 February 28th, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    Well said stuckey.

  257. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    A-Rod is 37 and can’t even stay healthy or hit for power anymore
    Jeter is a singles hitter who makes no impact on the game
    Gardner is a defensive player
    Swisher is likely gone after next year, giving us the need to find a 25/80 OFer.
    Martin is overrated by the brass but he still can hit some. Not easy to replace as a FA.
    Granderson – we have no idea of ’11 was an outlier. If it wasn’t, he’s going to get a monster contract after next year.
    Tex is now a .240 hitter who can’t hit RHP.
    Ibanez sucks. Chavez sucks, Whoever they get for the DH sucks.

    ______________

    This collection of misfits outscored every team (but 1) in the regular season, and outscored everyone in the postseason.

    I’m at a loss to see how fans of the Yankees don’t see this.

    The Yankees, at $200m, STILL have MORE offense that most other teams, even if with NO one but Granderson having the year we hoped they would.

    It’s sum of the parts guys.

    Some of you are two focused on the parts and not the machine.

  258. luis February 28th, 2012 at 5:06 pm

    risha – true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 4:53 pm
    luis, I think we may have identified another fundamental difference between us. I value pitching and defense more than I do offense. I always have. And seeing the Yankees 2nd in offense last year and 11th in pitching, well my automatic sensibilities point toward needing pitching more than offense.

    ===================================

    That’s a good point, may i remind you that our offense sunk us in the PS, not the pitching??…..A balanced team is what wins championships, not pitching and defense. Granted we didn’t have the pitching that we may have liked, but we were one or two seasons away to have a monster rotation, why not wait??, or why trade Montero for a work in progress??

  259. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    Whether Pineda is good or not is totally irrelevant to me in regards to me disliking this trade. I really wanted Yu Darvish & was most excited about seeing Montero rake. Losing Montero is very disapointing as I am still not over this trade. A lot of my anticipation has been sapped.

    To me it doesn’t matter how Pineda pitches because it’s not about Montero vs Pineda. It’s about Yu + Montero > Pineda.

  260. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    “Some of you are two focused on the parts and not the machine.”

    Exactly. Hence my poor analogy using the idiom “you can’t see the forest from the trees”.

  261. Pat M. February 28th, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    Face……Michael Pineda is a huge chip !!! I think many here will view him a little differently after 10 starts as he throws 97 mph aspirins by people….I think too many here over valued Jesus Montero….Three years from now when Doc and Lee are no longer top ten elite pitchers, the Yanks will have Michael Pineda…..This is and will prove to be a very good trade for The Bronx Bombers……Love this deal more now than when it was made…

  262. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    “why not wait??, or why trade Montero for a work in progress??”

    Why not wait? Have you just started to follow the Yankees?

    BTW, Montero was a work in progress too. He was far from a finished product.

    *Yu+Montero would cost a heck of a lot more than Pineda.*

  263. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:10 pm

    I think too many here over valued Jesus Montero

    I think you under value Jesus Montero.

  264. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    “So are mine. You’re once again placing way more confidence in prospects than I do. Which is fine, but that doesn’t mean my lack of confidence in them is unwarranted.”

    Wait. You’re saying that Mason Williams can replace A-Rod and I”m putting more confidence in prospects? O…K…

    I haven’t mentioned any prospects.

    “Facts? Really? I can’t be the first person you’ve heard say such a thing. I mean, it’s certainly not something a came up with on my own.”

    So, because others get it wrong, it’s ok for you to get it wrong?

    “Pujols, Fielder, Cespedes, Cuddyer, Ramirez, Reyes, and Rollins were hitters that got contracts of 3+ years this offseason.”

    Young impact hitters that changed teams. Two of those qualify. So what’s your point?

  265. munson15 February 28th, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    luis…how is a guy that had a solid year in big leagues( Pineda) a work in progress, but you say the B’s ( who haven’t pitched in the bigs yet) are gonna be monsters?

  266. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    “……Michael Pineda is a huge chip !!! I think many here will view him a little differently after 10 starts as he throws 97 mph aspirins by people….”

    Then trade him for Tulo.

  267. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    People are over-valuing Montero, people are under-valuing Montero.

    At the same time people are over-valuing Pineda, and people are under-valuing Pineda.

  268. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    “Wait. You’re saying that Mason Williams can replace A-Rod and I”m putting more confidence in prospects? O…K…”

    So said Mason is replacing ARod?

    “So, because others get it wrong, it’s ok for you to get it wrong?”

    When one person says something you can ignore it. When two people say something you can still dismiss it. But when three or more people say something it’s time to give it some credence.

    “Young impact hitters that changed teams. Two of those qualify. So what’s your point?”

    When you make the rules regarding what constitutes “impact”, it certainly makes it easier for you… doesn’t it?”

  269. Bret The Hitman February 28th, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    It’s about Yu + Montero > Pineda.

    ************

    It’s about Pineda + 100 million dollars > Yu + Montero

    Fixed.

  270. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    *Who said…

  271. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:15 pm

    “It’s about Pineda + 100 million dollars > Yu + Montero

    Fixed.”

    Nice

  272. luis February 28th, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    munson15 February 28th, 2012 at 5:11 pm
    luis…how is a guy that had a solid year in big leagues( Pineda) a work in progress, but you say the B’s ( who haven’t pitched in the bigs yet) are gonna be monsters?

    ===================================

    Pineda was very good at the start of the season, once the players adjusted he was well…..ok, he even finished behind Nova in the ROY. He needs a third pitch, if he doesn’t have it he won’t be a number 1 or 2.

    Why i am so high on the B’s?…i’ll tell you why: Banuelos already has three pitches, two plus plus ones and a third that is already plus, he just needs to learn to control his new found velocity.

    In Betances case he has King Felix stuff, at worst he has closer potential, pretty much like Pineda, so why trade the only impact bat for soemthing that you already have?

  273. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    So it’s okay to assume Banuelos and Betances will be “big” in MLB, but it’s not okay to think Pineda will be? You don’t see an issue with that?

    Not saying you’re wrong, but to call him wrong is kind of messed up.

  274. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    “So said Mason is replacing ARod?”

    You said:

    What about Cano? Granderson? Swisher? Gardner? By the team ARod is really slowing down there are guys like Mason Williams who could step in. The team is not in need of MLB-ready offensive prospects now or in the next couple of years.
    _

    To suggest he could step in at this point is absurd.

    “When one person says something you can ignore it. When two people say something you can still dismiss it. But when three or more people say something it’s time to give it some credence.”

    There are a lot of stupid people in the world. Just sayin’.

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