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Girardi: Rotation competition goes beyond Freddy and Phil

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 28, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Yankees rotation competition has been seen as two guys for one spot, a head-to-head competition between Freddy Garcia and Phil Hughes. Joe Girardi said this afternoon that he’s looking at it as four guys for three spots, with only CC Sabathi and Hiroki Kuroda locked into rotation jobs.

“That’s kind of what we’re looking at,” Girardi said. “You sign Kuroda to start. You sign all these guys to start, but Kuroda has a big track history. There’s so much talk about Phil, but this guy was a dominant reliever in 2009 and a very good starter in 2010. Sometimes we focus on 2011 — and I understand why, because it was the most recent — but what if he’s an 18-game winner again? We’ve got a competition here. We have to iron out five spots, and sometimes the five you leave with aren’t the five you end up with. We’ve got time. There’s no rush.”

So, Michael Pineda — the guy who was worth losing Jesus Montero — isn’t locked into a rotation job?

“I mean, he’s got to pitch,” Girardi said. “I can’t tell you. He’s gotta stay healthy. He’s gotta pitch. Nothing’s given to you in life. Nothing. You expect to write a story tomorrow. There’s no guarantee. You still have to do your work and do a quality job. And we’re not just handing things over. They gotta do their work.”

Girardi said it was Don Zimmer who advised him to never guarntee anyone a spot on the roster.

“Because if they go out and they struggle,” Girardi said, “or they perform badly in spring straining and they don’t have anything, or they’re not right where they’re supposed to be and you guaranteed them that spot and we say, ‘You know what, we don’t think you’re ready and we’re going to send you down,’ the guy goes, ‘You guaranteed me a spot and I was working on things.’ You gotta go out and earn it.”

Associated Press photo

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156 Responses to “Girardi: Rotation competition goes beyond Freddy and Phil”

  1. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 5:08 pm

    REPOST

    Whether Pineda is good or not is totally irrelevant to me in regards to me disliking this trade. I really wanted Yu Darvish & was most excited about seeing Montero rake. Losing Montero is very disapointing as I am still not over this trade. A lot of my anticipation has been sapped.

    To me it doesn’t matter how Pineda pitches because it’s not about Montero vs Pineda. It’s about Yu + Montero > Pineda.

    Yu would look better in pinstripes than in a cowboy hat :(

  2. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    Yu-sama~

  3. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    Why isn’t it Yu + Montero > Pineda + some $120mil hitter?

    Oh, because that’s not actually better… I see.

  4. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    Maybe it’s more about the answers than the questions. Unfortunately they let a great GM candidate leave the organization:

    http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ep.....ADBvWTLy1D

  5. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    Why isn’t it Yu + Montero > Pineda + some $120mil hitter?

    Oh, because that’s not actually better… I see.

    What? The 120 million hitter counts against the luxury tax 100%, Darvish don’t :) And also the 120 million hitter plays DH or 1B, which as you have pain stakingly established, is a waste of money!

  6. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    I call bs.

  7. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    And also the 120 million hitter plays DH or 1B

    Yours might, mine wouldn’t.

  8. Bret The Hitman February 28th, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    Why isn’t it Yu + Montero > Pineda + some $120mil hitter?

    Oh, because that’s not actually better… I see.

    **********

    Yup.

  9. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    I missed the “give our two huge pitchers a nickname” discussion.

    My vote is for Il Due Torre, which would also work if Joe and Frank Torre ever come to the stadium together:

    http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t.....2N32Mf.jpg

  10. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    $50 million is still $50 million, meaning it’s not chump change whether it’s taxed or not. The other $50 million is part of the luxury tax, as it and Darvish are on the Rangers’ 40-man roster.

  11. luis February 28th, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    luis February 28th, 2012 at 5:18 pm
    munson15 February 28th, 2012 at 5:11 pm
    luis…how is a guy that had a solid year in big leagues( Pineda) a work in progress, but you say the B’s ( who haven’t pitched in the bigs yet) are gonna be monsters?

    ===================================

    Pineda was very good at the start of the season, once the players adjusted he was well…..ok, he even finished behind Nova in the ROY. He needs a third pitch, if he doesn’t have it he won’t be a number 1 or 2.

    Why i am so high on the B’s?…i’ll tell you why: Banuelos already has three pitches, two plus plus ones and a third that is already plus, he just needs to learn to control his new found velocity.

    In Betances case he has King Felix stuff, at worst he has closer potential, pretty much like Pineda, so why trade the only impact bat for soemthing that you already have?

  12. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    “Pineda isn’t a question mark ? ”

    Of course he is. I’d go so far as to say 90% of starting pitching in the ML are question marks to some degree.

    The point being I’m not sure you can ever have enough question marks, being that they’re all … you know … question marks.

    As I said in other posts, I believe the importance of starting pitching is magnified in the PS, again, using the hockey goalie analogy.

    Pitching I believe is a position where you simply have to have MORE to throw at the wall, because relatively speaking, LESS of it is going to stick.

    “Pineda is just another in the line of not-establish-starters that the Yankees are flush with, while Montero is the only good bat worth a darn in the whole system.”

    We don’t agree you mean above A ball?

    “If you cash that chip, it shoulda been for a bigger prize.”

    But his chip value, which you describe as being tied into the only bat worth a darn” has no value to any other team than the Yankees.

    His value does not increase to the other 29 teams because of how much you judge his worth is to the Yankees.

    There are two unrelated equations.

    Using Montero in a swap for an established ace might only be perhaps unrealistic but it also might have payroll implications we’re all aware of.

    I’m not willing to say Pineda’s cost wasn’t also a factor. Are you?

    And again, given all these things you highlight – his uniqueness as a high ceiling bat above A – and the fact they traded him anyway raises questions for me.

    I don’t have the answers to them, but the questions are there nonetheless.

  13. Bronx Jeers February 28th, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    Does anybody ever put stock into the things Girardi says ?

  14. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    “so why trade the only impact bat for soemthing that you already have?”

    Good question.

    What’s YOUR answer?

  15. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    luis, not quite so fast. Pitching wins championships. We have enough offense to more than get by.

    I love you man, but no sane person could call AJ and Hughes locks for this year, watching them last year. I was more than willing to go with both of them, but patience is one of my hallmarks, appreciating the Yankees win or lose is another. Those are definitely NOT hallmarks of the typical Yankee fan, and certainly not the prevailing hallmarks on this forum!

    While I was happy to go into the season with the rotation we had, adding Freddy to it, I certainly can understand why the Yankees, one and out, were not.

    I am willing to acede my position when something makes more sense in terms of organizational goals. Shoring up the pitching made the most sense. Losing a potential star with a bat made more sense than failing to acquire pitching for the present and future.

    I’m down with that. Things don’t always go the way I wish they would, but I always have the ability to understand the logic in a situation.

    By the way, I was dead set against Kuroda and still wish it didn’t happen, but c’est la vie! I’m in the vast minority on that one. Hopefully I’m the one who got it wrong.

  16. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    I don’t want this to spin out of control though…

    I don’t see how not trading Montero meant they were going to spend $120mil on a pitcher. There is no logic in that.

    If you had to choose between say… spending $120mil on Darvish or $120mil on Justin Upton… who wouldn’t choose Upton?

  17. ADam February 28th, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    Pineda is starting, Cashman did not trade the franchises best prospect since Derek Jeter for another right handed reliever. (Which they have in spades) Girardi is doing his usual shtick here, were he doesn’t promise spots to anybody to make it look like every spot is earned. We all know this is not the case with Joe. If it was, Jeter would be batting in the bottom third of the order, Gardner would be playing 150 games and leading off and Jorge Posada would have not had nearly the amount of AB’s he had last year

    Ivan Nova would be in the pen before Pineda will, but I don’t see that happening and I think both will be in the rotation for a good 180+ innings each this year. If Phil has stamina or velo issues he’ll go to the pen and Freddy will get the #5 spot. Otherwise, Sorry Freddy, If you want to start somewhere, give your consent to be traded to a team that needs an arm… there are lots of them.

  18. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    Yeah, I agree that signing Kuroda by that point was not really necessary. But seeing as how it’s only a one year deal, I don’t think it was bad at all.

    BTW, don’t forget that getting Pineda may make it so the Yankees don’t have to hand out another contract with $20+ million for somebody to slot into the top of the lineup with CC. That’s a lot of money, especially when the team wants to get the payroll at or under $189 million by 2014.

  19. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    “Does anybody ever put stock into the things Girardi says ?”

    Sweeny Murti?

  20. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    luis, Pineda was a victim of the same thing that Alexi Ogando was – overuse of the arm. It showed for both of them – though I keep hearing that Pineda didn’t have a bad second half, so maybe that’s a lot of hype.

    *********

    I’m THRILLED to hear that the rotation competition goes beyond Freddy and Hughes. I’d like to believe it. I wouldn’t mind seeing Pineda as the 5th man, giving his arm a chance to both rest and continue to develop. I also wouldn’t mind seeing Kuroda relegated to the pen.

    And don’t bother trying to assure me that it won’t happen, because nobody on this forum has a corner on the “always correct” market. If it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t. But as with everything else, time will tell the story.

  21. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    That’s a lot of money, especially when the team wants to get the payroll at or under $189 million by 2014.

    I’m going to start paying more attention to it, but I hope those that are constantly worried about this 2014 deadline are not the same people clamoring for the Yankees to drop almost $200mil on Hamels.

  22. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    “If you had to choose between say… spending $120mil on Darvish or $120mil on Justin Upton… who wouldn’t choose Upton?”

    The question is flawed. Darvish does not at all equal J Upton.

    Now, asking “Hamels at $120m or J Upton at $120m”, then I can get on board. And due to what the Yankees have, and assuming they didn’t have Pineda, I’d go with Hamels. Again… the offense has shown the ability to be at the top year in and year out, while the pitching has had questions for a long time.

  23. luis February 28th, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    “I love you man, but no sane person could call AJ and Hughes locks for this year”

    =============================

    LOL!! that’s the trisha i know!! :)

    I forgot to say that i was willing to trade one season (2012) for many more rewarding in the future, even though i didn’t like the Kuroda signing either, i thought it was the right call to give the B’s time to develope.

  24. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    If you had to choose between say… spending $120mil on Darvish or $120mil on Justin Upton… who wouldn’t choose Upton?

    Justin Upton isn’t available and especially not in the terms of Pineda+120 million player. Thats who? Reyes, Pujols, Fielder?

  25. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    Bryan – It’s not flawed at all, Darvish cost $120mil. You can’t change that fact no matter how you look at the money or the taxes.

    You couldn’t sign Hamels for $120mil, so your premise is silly.

  26. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    I agree with jerkface.

    Bottom line is Yu + Montero is better for the team than Pineda. With Montero being cost controlled & Yu making roughly 10mill a year, there are ways to stay under the 2014 goal.

    I’ve had enough of Swisher’s disapearing act in the post season. Save money there & go cheap in house if spending 10mil on Yu is going to break the bank.

  27. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    And for all of you counting the chickens for next year (we could sign this one or that one), don’t.

    You don’t know that the Yankees will sign Hamels or anyone else, any more than you knew the Yankees were signing Cliff Lee.

  28. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    “I’m going to start paying more attention to it, but I hope those that are constantly worried about this 2014 deadline are not the same people clamoring for the Yankees to drop almost $200mil on Hamels.”

    That’s what I like so much about the Pineda deal. Not that I like or dislike either of the guys involved in the swap. It’s that it not only possibly gives the team somebody to pair with CC at the top of the rotation, but it does so at a much cheaper cost.

    I’m not worried about the goal of $189m (I actually don’t really believe they’ll get there), but it’s something I keep in mind when evaluating moves because the team is at least thinking about that too.

  29. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    ” Does anybody ever put stock into the things Girardi says ?”

    Yes, I took a long position in Girardi Statement Stock when he said that Chad Gaudin and Sergio Mitre each had a 20% chance to make the 2010 rotation.

    It’s why I can only have gelato on special occasions. :sad:

  30. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    jerkface – He was merely an example, I know he is not actually available for money.

    What does it matter who the player is? Spending $120mil on a batter is simply safer and smarter than spending that same money on a pitcher.

  31. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    “You couldn’t sign Hamels for $120mil, so your premise is silly.”

    I didn’t go with the obvious fact that Upton is not available, so it’s funny that you’d go there with Hamels. And yes, a 6 year deal with an AAV of $20m is certainly possible for Cole.

  32. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    Bottom line is Yu + Montero is better for the team than Pineda.

    No LockDown. The bottom line is that trading Montero or not had NOTHING to do with the fact that the Yankees were never going to sign Darvish.

    If you are advocating that they spend $120mil on a pitcher instead of trading Montero for one, you can do that. But… you know… actually do that.

  33. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    Bryan – I think 6/120 for Jupton when he becomes available is more likely than 6/120 for Hamels… they were both poor examples. go us :)

  34. Bret The Hitman February 28th, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    I like Matt Cain more than Hamels for this staff. I worry about Hamels makeup because of his defeatist comments in the 2009 World Series. Cain will be slightly cheaper and he comes with a championship pedigree rather than a loser mentality.

    SF could sign Cain in theory but they probably need to use that money to buy offense. They have none.

    CC – Cain – Pineda – Nova – Banuelos is devastating. Although 3 lefties would be great. I think 2 is just fine.

  35. Wave Your Hat February 28th, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    The Yanks will be under the luxury tax threshold in 2014. Too much money is riding on that for it not to happen. They’ll do it even if it costs them a post-season spot.

    They won’t be able to sign both Swisher and Grandy, and they won’t sign Hamels and I for one am thankful they won’t need to.

    My view is, enjoy this year. It’s shaping up to be a fun one for Yankee fans.

  36. luis February 28th, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Trish,

    Another thing, if pitching wins championships, how come the Yankees of the 90′s beat the sh..out of Atlanta or the Phillies didn’t win it this year??. First of all, The post season is a crapshoot, anyone can win, so all i aspire is the team to make the PS, if they win it all that’s gravy. Pitching and defense is important, but you need a good offense…For the record i am not concerned about this year, is 2013 and after.

  37. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Bret – They also bring 2 very different games to the table. Hamels strikes guys out, Cain limits damage. People have been trying to figure out “why Cain is successful at all” for years now. I’d rather bet the same money on Hamels personally.

  38. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    “Bryan – I think 6/120 for Jupton when he becomes available is more likely than 6/120 for Hamels… they were both poor examples. go us ”

    Interesting topic of debate. Seeing what Fielder got I have a feeling Upton would definitely cost more. Hamels may get an extra year or two, but seeing what Lee got I’m not that sure. Yeah, Lee could have gotten more than 5 years, but how much more? Two more years?

    I don’t know. Is this a place for that debate?

  39. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    The point being I’m not sure you can ever have enough question marks, being that they’re all … you know … question marks.

    As I said in other posts, I believe the importance of starting pitching is magnified in the PS, again, using the hockey goalie analogy.

    If they are all question marks, don’t allocate so many resources to them. Position players are less likely to blow up or go bad suddenly. I think the Yankees had enough question marks, you disagree. Thats fine.

    I also disagree with your SP in the PS magnification. The cardinals just won the WS with a 97 ERA+ staff. The Phillies were knocked out. You just need whoever you have to go out there and throw a good start. CC’s had, outside of 2009, a very shaky postseason. Scherzer had a 4.5 ERA and managed to shut down the Yankees. Anyone can have a good start or a bad start.

    Give me the surer thing.

  40. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    “The Yanks will be under the luxury tax threshold in 2014. Too much money is riding on that for it not to happen. They’ll do it even if it costs them a post-season spot.

    They won’t be able to sign both Swisher and Grandy, and they won’t sign Hamels and I for one am thankful they won’t need to.

    My view is, enjoy this year. It’s shaping up to be a fun one for Yankee fans.”

    +1

  41. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    “I forgot to say that i was willing to trade one season (2012) for many more rewarding in the future, even though i didn’t like the Kuroda signing either, i thought it was the right call to give the B’s time to develope.”

    See that’s the problem. I absolutely agree with your thinking, but it doesn’t mesh with the organization thinking (or the impatient Yankee fans who demand to win NOW!)

    Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending upon one’s perspective) the organizational philosophy has been “win now” for quite a while. Heck listen to Jeter talk about how anything short of winning the WS is a disappointment. The Yanks just don’t think that way. A building year is unheard of.

    That’s probably why I adjust quickly to whatever happens. I know the organizational philosophy and don’t see the need to beat my head against a brick wall because I may not agree with it. It’s the team I root for, so the team on the field becomes the team I accept. Easy-peasy. And not least, they do know more than I do about fielding a team.

    :)

  42. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    Not all questions, or question MARKS in this case, are equal.

  43. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    I know there weren’t going to sign Yu as per their posting fee, but at that time they also had a stricter budget than they do now. They readjusted their budget to include Karudo. So I do wonder what might have happened if they had extended their budget earlier.

    I hear arguments about trading Montero is good because Jeter & Arod need rest at the DH and so Montero can’t play everyday. I can’t imagine having a 120million dollar DH making resting Jeter & Arod any easier.

    We all have our opinion on this, and mine still stands.

  44. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    “That’s probably why I adjust quickly to whatever happens. I know the organizational philosophy and don’t see the need to beat my head against a brick wall because I may not agree with it. It’s the team I root for, so the team on the field becomes the team I accept. Easy-peasy. And not least, they do know more than I do about fielding a team.”

    It seems like some fans are happy being miserable. If that makes sense.

    I mean, some people seem to hate what they do, or how they think, so much I can’t help but wonder why they are a fan of them at all.

  45. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    Give me the surer thing.

    … but they are betting on the surer thing by not throwing money at the rotation.

  46. Pat M. February 28th, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    The days of the NY Yankees laying out 100 million for a pitcher are over….Besides Cole Hamels is going to want to pitch for The Dodgers……..Also, Pineda is better than Yu Darvish and is younger and 119 million dollars cheaper……Anyone want to wager Pineda and Darvish ???

  47. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    Okay, forum question.

    And yes, JF and Blake, I know MY answer to this question, but it not a “trick” question. It’s an intellectual exercise.

    In 2012, Bud Selig announces a new postseason rule after the last game of the regular season.

    Each round, a playoff team can draft one player from another non-playoff team. The yankees win the lottery and pick first for the DS teams.

    Now, assuming rest day for pitchers isn’t an issue for the sake of his exercise.

    1.) Just for fun, assume last year’s PS teams go to the PS again. What specific player would you select?

    2.) Generally (depending on availability, further rounds, future years) would you think you’d advocate a starting pitcher, or a position player?

  48. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    Don’t ignore the idea that signing Kuroda was a much easier pill to swallow due to it being only one year. Taking a $10m hit in one year is very much different than taking a $10m hit for 5 or so years.

  49. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    “Anyone want to wager Pineda and Darvish ???”

    I’ll take Pineda. Looking at the success rate for Japanese pitchers in MLB it’s hard to put money on them. And Pineda has seen MLB hitters for a full season already. Experience is not something to ignore.

  50. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    “My view is, enjoy this year. It’s shaping up to be a fun one for Yankee fans.”

    HEAR HEAR!!!

    I’m with you all the way – even though we ended up signing Kuroda.

    ;)

    It is the foolish fan who continues to bemoan that which he or she cannot control. (Buddha)

    Okay, Buddha didn’t say that, but he did say this: Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment.

    It is the foolish fan who cannot see how much the present moment has to offer. (Buddha)

    Okay, so Buddha didn’t say that. But he should have!

  51. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    Don’t ignore the idea that signing Kuroda was a much easier pill to swallow due to it being only one year. Taking a $10m hit in one year is very much different than taking a $10m hit for 5 or so years.

    A much easier pill to swallow for a 37 year old, but getting Darvish for 10 per through his prime when he is fully developed woulda been nice.

    Pat M, I think Darvish will post a year better than anyone on the Yankees outside of CC next season. I won’t bet money against the Yankees, but if you want to wager something for fun have at it.

  52. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    lockdown – I can’t imagine having a 120million dollar DH making resting Jeter & Arod any easier

    It certainly wouldn’t, and i’m not advocating that at all. If I was to spend $120mil on a hitter as the Yankees right now it would be on RF or 3B or SS. No way in hell I pay a DH more than a few mil.

  53. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    1.) Just for fun, assume last year’s PS teams go to the PS again. What specific player would you select?

    Adrian Gonzalez or Votto.

  54. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    but getting Darvish for 10 per through his prime when he is fully developed woulda been nice.

    And Impossible. He costs $20mil per

    Stop playing with the Darvish numbers, it makes no sense.

    The Rangers spent $120mil, they have him under contract for 6 years. Case closed.

  55. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Jerkface – You would really take A-Gon over Kershaw or Lincecum?

  56. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    All that glitters is not gold (Shakespeare).

    Who could forget that fateful moment when the Sux outbid the Yanks for the services of one Dice-K Matzusucka?

    Don’t put all your eggs in one basket, or you could end up with darvished eggs!

  57. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    And Impossible. He costs $20mil per

    Stop playing with the Darvish numbers, it makes no sense.

    It makes perfect sense. Only 10 million is accounted for the luxury tax, which is a specific goal the team has in mind.

  58. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    “The days of the NY Yankees laying out 100 million for a pitcher are over…”

    We’ve heard that before, and it didn’t happen.

  59. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    “Adrian Gonzalez or Votto.”

    LoL.. I would have taken Kershaw.

    There you go.

  60. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    Jerkface – You would really take A-Gon over Kershaw or Lincecum?

    We’re facing the Tigers and their right handed staff, yes I will take the guy that hit .347 .422 .624 1.046 vs righties last year on my team.

  61. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    Pat M – I’ll take on the Darvish v Pineda bet 24-7. And I’ll put my money on Pineda.

  62. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    jerkface – Money out of their pocket is all that matters, not their “luxury tax goals”.

    If you go out drinking and spend $20 at the bar… but there was a $10cover and the cab cost you $10… how much money did you spend to go out drinking?

  63. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    And Darvish only gets 10 million, so kind of unfair to hold him against money he isn’t even seeing. It was not a bonus, or included in his contract. Its the cost of doing business with foreign partners.

  64. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    If you go out drinking and spend $20 at the bar… but there was a $10cover and the cab cost you $10… how much money did you spend to go out drinking?

    That isn’t a good analogy.

  65. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    “A much easier pill to swallow for a 37 year old, but getting Darvish for 10 per through his prime when he is fully developed woulda been nice.”

    But what will Yu’s prime have to offer? I think we both expect different things from Darvish. I have a very hard time believing he’ll be an ace in MLB, while I think the Yankees will get $10m worth out of Kuroda for only one year. Based on teams needs/wants, I think they made the right choice here.

  66. austinmac February 28th, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    Pineda is starting. Girardi said yesterday he didn’t care about results and he should work on the change. He is simply saying don’t be complacent to them all.

  67. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    jerkface – We’re facing the Tigers and their right handed staff, yes I will take the guy that hit .347 .422 .624 1.046 vs righties last year on my team.

    So you would take 20 at bats of A-gon, 1/9th of the offense… over a pitcher that can completely control 1, possibly 2 out of 5 games?

    That doesn’t add up at all to me.

  68. Pat M. February 28th, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    Face….I like Ritter Sport chocolate bars just as Nick in SF & Tircia do…..Figure out the parameters and we’re on…….Actually I rather do that than money anyway simply for the face losing money sends bad vibes for most…..

  69. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    It’s not playing with the numbers. One of the reasons some say Pineda is a good get is because of staying under the 189million & that the luxury tax needs to be taken into acount with yankees moves. So making the case for 10million a year fits because the rest isn’t against the luxury tax.

    You can’t use the 189 million argument/luxury tax for Pineda and than add the extra cost of Yu in to make your fiscal argument.

  70. luis February 28th, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    Trisha,

    That’s true……Many fans are going to be disapointed, that philosophy is doomed from the start

  71. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    “It makes perfect sense. Only 10 million is accounted for the luxury tax, which is a specific goal the team has in mind.”

    It cost $109 million no matter how you split it up. I don’t see how you can just write off $53 million (the posting fee). When it comes to the question of how much will Darvish be worth, I don’t see how you can ignore it. Not one bit.

  72. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    That isn’t a good analogy.

    Actually it’s a perfect analogy, and I know that because you didn’t even answer it.

    The cab and the Cover are the “tax” considerations, but you still spent $40 on the evening. You could not have possibly gone there, gotten in, drank and got home without spending that money.

    The Texas Rangers can’t possibly have Darvish on their roster if $120mil didn’t leave their hands. That’s what it cost them. It will cost them even more if they go over the luxury tax trying to fill out the rest of their roster.

  73. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    So you would take 20 at bats of A-gon, 1/9th of the offense… over a pitcher that can completely control 1, possibly 2 out of 5 games?

    That doesn’t add up at all to me.

    Just like I don’t think it adds up to waste your draft on a guy that is just as likely to be bad as good, and if he is bad you’re done. Give me the guy that can affect every game.

  74. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    LockDown – You can say that signing Darvish for $120mil (post + contract) can be less costly than signing C.J. Wilson for the same amount of money…

    that doesn’t mean Darvish only cost “the contract” though.

  75. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    “It’s not playing with the numbers. One of the reasons some say Pineda is a good get is because of staying under the 189million & that the luxury tax needs to be taken into acount with yankees moves. So making the case for 10million a year fits because the rest isn’t against the luxury tax.

    You can’t use the 189 million argument/luxury tax for Pineda and than add the extra cost of Yu in to make your fiscal argument.”

    But it’s a different argument. Nobody is talking about the Rangers trying to get under the tax threshold, or what they’re trying to do with their payroll. This is about what Darvish is worth. It’s two totally seperate discussions.

  76. sunny615 February 28th, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    Booby V is an idiot…

    “Earlier in his media session Tuesday, when discussing his team practicing the fundamentals of relays and cutoffs, Valentine took a shot at Jeter’s renowned back-hand flip in Game 3 of the 2001 ALDS. The play has taken in mythical proportions, Jeter racing from his shortstop position to the first-base line to retrieve a throw that had sailed over both cutoff men, then throwing out Jeremy Giambi with a backhand flip at home plate. It saved the Yankees from elimination in that series and was even named by ESPN as the 45th best sports moment of the last 100 years. To Valentine, though, it was a misplay.

    “We’ll never practice that,” Valentine said. “I think [Jeter] was out of position and the ball gets [Giambi] out if [Jeter] doesn’t touch it, personally.”

    Valentine is in the minority — perhaps a minority of one — when he says the throw might have gotten to the plate without Jeter’s intervention.”

    http://espn.go.com/new-york/ml.....erek-jeter

  77. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    Sorry, ID, but I’m issuing a ruling here and it’s that your analogy was bad.

    Not 100% bad, but I’m grading this one pass/fail.

  78. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    Just like I don’t think it adds up to waste your draft on a guy that is just as likely to be bad as good, and if he is bad you’re done. Give me the guy that can affect every game.

    If you are going to just change the discussion, then give me a guy that can play the field.

  79. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    Actually it’s a perfect analogy, and I know that because you didn’t even answer it.

    The cab and the Cover are the “tax” considerations, but you still spent $40 on the evening. You could not have possibly gone there, gotten in, drank and got home without spending that money.

    It is not a perfect analogy. The posting fee benefits a league which is an international partner of MLB, and they gain back advertising and merchandise from Japan. Craft an analogy that works like that.

    In your situation, I spent 20 dollars on drinks? I’d say if I only wanted to spend 20 dollars on drinks and I could afford to spend whatever i want like the Yankees, then that night I spent 20 dollars on drinks.

  80. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    They barely got Giambi out with the flip, how the hell would they have gotten him out without it? That doesn’t even get into the fact that the throw Jeter cut off was not heading directly towards the plate.

    Ouch, Bobby. Come on, you’re smarter than that.

  81. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    nick in sf – how so?

    The cab and the cover are costs associated with the end goal, drinking. You couldn’t have gotten in the bar at all to drink without paying the cover.

    You couldn’t have even talked to Darvish to sign him without paying the “cover”. How does that cost not become directly associated with the player?

  82. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    If you are going to just change the discussion, then give me a guy that can play the field.

    ?? How is it changing the discussion, we were asked to draft 1 player. I picked the hitter, you asked why, I gave my reason. Its not changing the discussion.

  83. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    The posting fee benefits a league which is an international partner of MLB, and they gain back advertising and merchandise from Japan. Craft an analogy that works like that.

    No, because that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING do to with the Texas Rangers.

  84. luis February 28th, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    Ouch, Bobby. Come on, you’re smarter than that.

    No, he isn’t

  85. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    You couldn’t have even talked to Darvish to sign him without paying the “cover”. How does that cost not become directly associated with the player?

    If you don’t drink at the bar, you don’t get your cover back.

  86. austinmac February 28th, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    Darvish is costing the Rangers an annualized $20M per year. They are well under the cap so they get no benefit of the posting fee not counting. It would have been a savings for the Yankees, however.

    I wish they had gone after him or the $120M hitter. They never intended to get heavily involved with Darvish or any other long term commitment. They won’t do so for the next two years, or likely just for Cano.

  87. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    Are the Rangers going to get $109 million (or however much the total of the posting fee and contract were) out of Yu Darvish?

    That’s how much it cost them to acquire Darvish, so that’s how much should be used to evaluate him. It doesn’t matter if the money is taxed, or who actually gets it, the fact is Texas spent that much to get him. So will they get that money back?

  88. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    jerkface – Sorry but you are totally wrong here.

  89. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    “If you don’t drink at the bar, you don’t get your cover back.”

    Really. It’s so obvious.

  90. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    “No, he isn’t”

    Okay, I guess was giving him too much credit. Sorry.

  91. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    This is about what Darvish is worth

    Darvish is going to post lots of WAR for the Rangers. Go by whatever WAR costs. He will be worth more than they paid.

  92. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    Who cares if the analogy was good or not? How about the actual topic of discussion?

    Texas paid around $110 million to get Yu Darvish. Was it worth it?

  93. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    They are well under the cap so they get no benefit of the posting fee not counting.

    They get the benefit of not going over the cap, depending on what they do going forward with their new TV deal.

  94. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    “Darvish is going to post lots of WAR for the Rangers. Go by whatever WAR costs. He will be worth more than they paid.”

    There. That’s the point. Not sure I agree, but thank you for getting on point.

  95. sunny615 February 28th, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    Honestly, I have some friends who are Sawx fans and even they rolled their eyes at that comment. There’s stirring the rivalry and then there’s outright stupidity… that’s on the stupidity side of the fence…

    Even Ramon Hernandez who was on the on-deck circle said the throw would’ve hit him if Jeter wasn’t there. Good choice Sawx…

  96. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    Texas paid around $110 million to get Yu Darvish. Was it worth it?

    Darvish is going to carve up the MLB, yes. I would have paid that much for strasberg if the Yankees could have got him circumventing the draft.

    Darvish is a ready made product with many quality pitches, all the good clubhouse/gamer junk people love, and the ability to throw 200 innings. Not to mention an incredibly marketable superstar!

  97. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    “They get the benefit of not going over the cap, depending on what they do going forward with their new TV deal.”

    Texas’ payroll last year was a little under $93 million. The tax threshold is $178m this season. Even if the posting fee counted against them the team still would have been under the threshold this season. 93(payroll before Darvish)+52(posting fee)+10(salary)=155.

  98. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    If you don’t drink at the bar, you don’t get your cover back

    So? If you do drink there you don’t get it back either.

    What is the issue here? You just want to be difficult, I understand.

    3 months ago the Texas Rangers had $120mil. Now they don’t, and all they have to show for it is Yu Darvish.

    They would not have sent $50mil to the NBP league for any reason other than to attempt to sign Yu Darvish. If they failed to do so, they would have gotten every dollar back and no harm no foul. They did sign him however, so they got NOTHING back. $109mil left their hands, Yu Darvish entered their employment. They spent $109mil on Darvish.

    It’s not complicated.

    Will it be worth it? Probably… 3 WAR a year for 5 years isn’t a “great pitcher” by any stretch… but that’s not what we were talking about.

  99. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    “Honestly, I have some friends who are Sawx fans and even they rolled their eyes at that comment”

    The only thing that puzzles me is why people care. He’s trolling. So?

  100. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    “Darvish is a ready made product with many quality pitches, all the good clubhouse/gamer junk people love, and the ability to throw 200 innings. Not to mention an incredibly marketable superstar!”

    I can’t say you’re wrong, but my expectations for him are a hell of a lot lower than that.

  101. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    “Texas paid around $110 million to get Yu Darvish. Was it worth it?”

    to me… yes. I think he’s going to be a stud & I really believe they’ll make back money in the form of excitement for the japanese stud. I don’t think you can underestimate the value of adding star power to a team. Look at the frenzy Linsanity is having, though I agree it’s different, less cost on Lin etc… But I’m just going by the potential for widening an audience in favor of said team.

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree… :)

  102. Best To Ever Do It February 28th, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    sunny615 February 28th, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    Booby V is an idiot…

    ———————-

    Damn you beat me to it.

  103. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    Will it be worth it? Probably

    Oh ho ho. 3 WAR? Darvish is going to post 4+ WAR.

  104. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    Texas’ payroll last year was a little under $93 million. The tax threshold is $178m this season.

    The point about Texas’ payroll is that they managed to add a really great pitcher without putting a huge stress point on their roster re: luxury tax. Obviously it would be more enticing for a team close to the tax or over it already, but they added a 4+ WAR pitcher for the cost of like a mid rotation guy.

    With the money they get back on japanese advertising and merchandise and whatever other deals they can cook up, I think it will be very worth it.

    They are getting one of the best players on the planet for his prime at an affordable price, its a really good deal.

  105. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    jerkface – Oh ho ho. 3 WAR? Darvish is going to post 4+ WAR.

    Maybe.

    Only one thing is certain with Darvish right now, he will cost the Rangers $109mil at least.

    How he pitches will be fun to watch.

  106. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    “We’ll just have to agree to disagree…”

    I didn’t say he wouldn’t be. I just saw the discussion was getting off track, and I was trying to get it back.

    I’d have to look at the price of a win, look into how many wins Yu would be worth over his contract, and go from there. I’m a nerd when it comes to numbers, so I can’t just give an answer off the top of my head like that.

    I can say that I don’t think he’ll be the ace that some thing he’ll be. I just don’t think the combination of better hitters face, as well as pitching more often, will yield similar results that he saw in Japan. It’s hurt other big-time pitchers from NPB.

  107. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    Jerkface- I was just pointing out that the posting fee not counting against the Luxury Tax was not a reason for Texas to be happy. You stated that the posting fee not counting helped them stay under the cap, and as you can see that’s not true as they would have been under the cap (or “threshold”) anyway.

  108. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    I also thought Aroldis Chapman was supposed to carve up the MLB. And so was Dice-K Matsuzaka. And Jose Contreras for that matter.

    Apparently the Yankees weren’t as high on Darvish as were some of their fans.

    It really makes little sense to rail against the Yankees when things don’t go the way a fan wants them to go.

    All you have to do is read this forum to realize that there is little universality in “what the Yankees should do.” Or should not do.

    I still think the wiser course is to pay attention to what it appears the Yankees are poised to do and roll with it. They’re known for typicaally putting out a pretty good product.

    This was printed December 18th. Darvish signed one month later. So the word was out there for a while.

    http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....ese_p.html

  109. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    I just don’t think the combination of better hitters face, as well as pitching more often, will yield similar results that he saw in Japan. It’s hurt other big-time pitchers from NPB.

    Depends on their stuff and attitude. Kuroda was not phased. He pitched better, arguably, over here than over there. And Darvish has better stuff, better command of it, more guile, more bulldog, whatever other intangible crap you wanna throw in there.

    In the Japan Series, world series of japan, he was hurt and couldn’t use his normal motion to throw. Instead of sitting out the game, he altered his mechanics so he could throw enough to make his start, and won the game.

    Dare I say it, the numbers (which are insanely good) don’t tell everything.

    Just like the numbers for american players doesnt tell you how they will react to going over to the NPB. Some guys with good numbers can’t hack it over there. Same thing over here.

    We don’t have the benefit of a bunch of japanese players coming here, we only get bits and pieces. With the amount of latin, american, and whomever players that fail every year its no surprise that some japanese players arent as good as advertised or don’t hack it.

    Darvish will be an exception I think.

  110. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    “Apparently the Yankees weren’t as high on Darvish as were some of their fans.”

    It’s about the money. They aren’t spending.

  111. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    Beyond retaining CC.

  112. Bronx Jeers February 28th, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    Yes, I took a long position in Girardi Statement Stock when he said that Chad Gaudin and Sergio Mitre each had a 20% chance to make the 2010 rotation.

    It’s why I can only have gelato on special occasions.

    —————————

    That’s too bad. I sold short on his “We’re in this to win the division” garbage and cleaned up!

  113. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    “I can say that I don’t think he’ll be the ace that some thing he’ll be. I just don’t think the combination of better hitters face, as well as pitching more often, will yield similar results that he saw in Japan. It’s hurt other big-time pitchers from NPB.”

    Fair enough. And the past hasn’t been kind to previous pitchers. And maybe this is part of where some of our difference in opinion lies. We won’t know until we actual see it, so we can only go on gut or what have you.

    For me, I think he’s going to be a stud. Add that to Montero’s bat in the lineup and… :(

  114. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    “Darvish is going to carve up the MLB, yes. I would have paid that much for strasberg if the Yankees could have got him circumventing the draft.”

    Good news, because won’t the new amateur draft rules allow the Yankees to do exactly that?

    You can go over 15% of the slot so long as you’re willing to pay the tax and lose your #1 the next 2 rounds.

    So if you’re the Yankees, how much would you pay to get a Strasberg or Harper? Pay $00 tax and give you your late first rounder for the next 2 years.

  115. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    Lock, not that it matters one way or the other since I have no say in the Yankees plans, I don’t put much stock in any of the Japanese pitching any more. They typically turn out to be eventual duds IMO. There’s nothing that says to me that this guy is going to be the bomb, any more than Jose Contreras turned out to be the bomb, or Matsuzaka turned out to be the bomb, or Chapman has turned out to be the bomb. (Not all Japanese but all highly touted.)

    I’m pleased with Pineda. I do believe we have a star (or a star in the making for those who aren’t yet convinced.)

  116. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    “nick in sf – how so?”

    You asked because you cared for an answer, right? ;)

    Because the point of your analogy is that the only thing that matters at all is that you spent $20 on your visit to the bar and it wouldn’t matter if the cover was $1 and you got $19 in drinks or if the cover was $15 and you just nursed one $5 PBR all night. Right?

    That analogy only works for the Yankees if you make it really complicated and say that you have a strict alchohol budget and you operate under some rule that every dollar you spend over that budget will carry a 40% surcharge but that the money you pay in cover charges don’t count against your alchohol budget, only against your total entertainment budget or something like that.

    Anyway, the Yankees clearly didn’t want to go into that bar very badly and didn’t want to pay for Darvish no matter which line on the budget the money was coming from, so they could well have seen it more your way (Darvish not worth the total outlay), but I’m just looking at this from an analogy quality control perspective.

  117. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    lockdown – For me, I think he’s going to be a stud. Add that to Montero’s bat in the lineup and…

    And there is no way that Pineda ends up being as good as Darvish?

    Why do you assume they would have spent the $100mil or so to acquire Darvish in that scenario, but they didn’t spend any sort of that money to replace Montero after they traded him?

  118. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    but those guys still have to drop to them in the draft

  119. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    “It’s about the money. They aren’t spending.”

    It could also be about having gotten burned in the past.

  120. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    “I’m pleased with Pineda. I do believe we have a star (or a star in the making for those who aren’t yet convinced.)”

    trisha – first off, HI!

    I am not doubting Pineda. He could be a stud & good for us because we have him now. But it doesn’t change my feelings regarding Yu.

  121. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    nick in sf – I did want an answer, I wouldn’t ask for one otherwise :) but…, I think you missed the analogy completely, and that’s why you don’t like it.

    In order to “go out drinking”, there is transportation and “cover” and other things to consider in the cost of engaging in that activity. My plan tonight is to go out drinking. Involved in making that plan happen are $10 in cab fare, $10 in bar cover, and $20 in drinks. When I get home at the end of the night, I spent $40 on “going out drinking”.

    Now, signing Darvish.

    In order to sign Darvish, there was a posting fee “cover” to consider in the cost in engaging in that activity (signing darvish). The Texas Rangers plan was to sign Darvish. Involved in making that plan happen are the $50mil posting fee to speak to the player and the $60mil contract to actually employ the player. When Texas got “back from Japan” so to speak, they spent $110 million on “signing Darvish”.

    Who actually collects the money spent does not change the fact that it was spent.

    Does that explain it a little better?

  122. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    You could say that the Yankees instead decided to visit a mysterious bar in a brand new neighborhood where there’s a decent chance they’re going to have the time of their lives and hook up with a championship hottie, but there’s also some risk that they’ll get beaten up, robbed, and end up bleeding in a back alley wondering how they’re going to get home.

    And the cover charge at this other bar was Jesus Montero. :cry:

  123. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    “And there is no way that Pineda ends up being as good as Darvish?”

    I never said he wouldn’t. My feeling on having Yu AND montero are just that. It has no bearing on how Pineda does. Example: If Montero, Pineda & Yu are ALL studs…. Yu + Montero > Pineada.

    “Why do you assume they would have spent the $100mil or so to acquire Darvish in that scenario, but they didn’t spend any sort of that money to replace Montero after they traded him?”

    They added Karudo for 10million AFTER cashman got more money from the bros. Before that meeting, they didn’t get karudo. So we really don’t know one way or another what would have happened if the bros had given cashman more money for 2012 in November. We know there are ways for money to come off the books next year, so with all that factoring in plus the extra spending this year, we just don’t know. Maybe they still don’t want to spend on YU. I don’t know. I wasn’t assuming they would or wouldn’t, just making note of the fact that their finances changed.

  124. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    Hi Lock!

    I guess I’m content with whatever.

    But I know you and I will be on the same page all season! Can’t wait!

    :)

  125. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    Stuckey, they cannot do that in the draft. Its not the same. Players would have to drop to them there is no equal shot at anyone. they could not have got harper or strasberg unless none of the other clubs wanted him.

  126. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    “Expectations” – Disappointments & Other Demands on the Ever-Present Moment

    “Buddha taught the total Impermanence of ALL Conditioned Things:

    Desiring, Obsessing, Grasping, Clinging & Attaching brings Suffering.

    One of my primary ‘practices’ is: I cheerfully, EXPECT to be Disappointed.

    But truly ‘Cheerfully’. But if by chance, it is a surprising and truly delightful

    event for me in my mind, I fully enjoy it for those brief moments – but when

    I see I am starting to adhere to the experience – sticky like fresh coconut paste.

    ‘Mindfulness’ tells me “don’t go get attached” – or you will be disappointed again.

    How is it, you Americans say, ‘Back to square one’. Back to my breath. Start again.

    This is where the “No Surprise” mantra comes in.” Choose you attachments carefully.

    ~ Bhante Ananda Maitreya

  127. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    “[...] Does that explain it a little better?”

    No. I already understood all that. It works fine for a team that isn’t over the Luxury Tax threshold and isn’t worried about it. Your analogy is ok for the Rangers, but not for the Yankees.

    The Yankees clearly decided that the total outlay wasn’t worth it for whatever number of reasons, so they didn’t bid competitively, so your real life point may be (and probably is) correct.

    They just weren’t that into Yu.

  128. BryanV21 February 28th, 2012 at 6:38 pm

    So we’re equating the brothers allowing Cashman to spend $10m in one year, to allowing Cashman to spend $110 million over 6 years. I guess I can’t say they wouldn’t have due to the team’s future financial situation, but that debate seems a bit off.

  129. Bret The Hitman February 28th, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Looks like some Yankees fans and Jesus Montero have not yet PARTED WAYS.

    :lol:

  130. RMS February 28th, 2012 at 6:42 pm

    I don’t put much stock in any of the Japanese pitching any more. They typically turn out to be eventual duds IMO. There’s nothing that says to me that this guy is going to be the bomb, any more than Jose Contreras turned out to be the bomb, or Matsuzaka turned out to be the bomb, or Chapman has turned out to be the bomb

    ————————————————————————————————
    Don’t forget Igawa. He bombed big time.

  131. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    Igawa especially.

  132. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    “Stuckey, they cannot do that in the draft. Its not the same. Players would have to drop to them there is no equal shot at anyone. they could not have got harper or strasberg unless none of the other clubs wanted him.”

    JF, can’t a amateur use the usual “signability” means to exert some control where he wants to go?

    Threaten to accept that scholarship, go back for his senior year, etc?

  133. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    “So we’re equating the brothers allowing Cashman to spend $10m in one year, to allowing Cashman to spend $110 million over 6 years. I guess I can’t say they wouldn’t have due to the team’s future financial situation, but that debate seems a bit off.”

    Maybe you’re equating this, but I’m not. If you truly understood the point I was making, you wouldn’t have written this. But don’t let that get in the way of making a point in such a fashion as sitting on your high horse.

  134. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    With hard slotting teams are going to draft best available and signability would only work if the yankees were the ones outspending everyone but they ain’t. Lots of teams spend more than the yankees in the draft. The system itself restrictsbonuses. No major league deals in the new cba either. Darvish was closer to free agency than the draft. Teams didn’t take turns deciding if they wanted him.

  135. Tom in N.J. February 28th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    Going into this offseason Cashman had plenty of food and plenty of water. Enough of each to sustain the Yankees for the foreseeable future. He decided to trade some of his food for more water, which in his eyes is the rarer and more precious commodity. He may be stuck scavenging for food and dumpster diving, but he will not be thirsty….

  136. luis February 28th, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    Don’t forget Igawa. He bombed big time.

    =========================

    I liked his sunglasses ;)

  137. trisha - true pinstriped blue February 28th, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    OT – it used to be that kids who were bullied did themselves in. More and more they are lashing out at others. I would hope that could be a lesson to those who like to bully…

  138. luis February 28th, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    Tom in N.J. February 28th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    Who knows??. maybe he’ll end up trading water for crackers

  139. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    nick in sf – I’m not sure I was trying to make that point… it making sense for the yankees or the rangers… that’s not what the analogy was for. Some are still convinced that the posting fee “doesn’t count” when you look how much Darvsh cost the Rangers. For that, the analogy is perfect. :)

    It doesn’t seem like you are one of those people. :)

    lockdown – $10mil is not $100mil though, when you say “if they are all studs then yu + montero > pineda” well, that’s just simple logistics of course 2 stud players will be better than one. Are they going to be $100mil better than Pineda though? Factoring in the quickly rising arb costs of the HoF bound Montero? That would be much harder to say, breaking even would be more likely than one side being better than the other.

    You can love and miss Montero, I do… I had real money riding on him and he just lost 30runs/ribs going to Seattle. That doesn’t give me fantasy dreams about Darvish or disdain for Pineda though.

  140. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    “With hard slotting teams are going to draft best available and signability would only work if the yankees were the ones outspending everyone but they ain’t.”

    Not asking about likelihood, only possibility.

    If A team signaled to an agent they’d be willing to pay the tax on a HUGE signing bonus and give up the draft picks for a generational type prospect like Harper or Strasberg, and the agent used college as leverage to only sign with his selected team, the system can’t prevent it, right?

  141. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    “Going into this offseason Cashman had plenty of food and plenty of water. Enough of each to sustain the Yankees for the foreseeable future.”

    “Ananologically” speaking, the issue here is no one here is a nutritionist. We’re throwing around terms like balanced breakfast and guessing what the human body REALLY needs to sustain itself, without any real data to support our assumptions.

    “Plenty” and “enough” are the keys here. Both are pretty substantial shots in the dark.

  142. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    It can prevent it as every team picking before you has a chance to get the player, and the lack of mlb deals mean everything you pay him is a bonus. It is possible but extremely, extremely unlikely. Strasberg and harper both did not try it and they would have made ten times as much on the open market. Those types of first round picks will always reap the highest slotting value as first picks.

  143. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    ID-

    It’s the yankees money & they obviously didn’t want to spend it or maybe they just didn’t like Yu or whatever…

    I think it’s a fair guess to say that they didn’t know about Pineda, so I wonder if this trade wasn’t made whether they were thinking hamels or were they going to stick with their farm system or the Garcia’s of the world…

  144. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    “It can prevent it as every team picking before you has a chance to get the player,”

    Dude, I know we like to argue with one another, but do we really need to spend time on assuming I don’t know how a draft works? :-)

    This forum has a real difficult time with conditional questions. I asked if it was possible. Yes would have done it.

  145. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    I thought I read that the yankees were initially trying to trade for Felix. doesn’t he cost more than Pineda… meaning that they had some plan during those talks that included Felix’ paycheck over the coming years

  146. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    lockdown – It’s good timing for this type of pitcher to come into the Yankee system I think. Nearly finished, major league success already… takes pressure off of a lot of younger arms in the system… and if everything moves in the right direction this year for those younger arms, they don’t have to drop money on Hamels.

  147. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Its possible for a meteor to hit the earth, same likelihood as a player colluding with 1 team to drop X spots through the draft so that team can pay him a fantasy amount that will be taxed 100% with 2 first round picks as the price. You ask these if possible questions but anything is possible but the better question is if it is probable. The yankees have a slim to no chance of getting a strasberg in the draft.

  148. LockDown February 28th, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    ID –

    Yeah, we don’t need hamels at this point. I must say, I am looking forward to next year more than this year :lol: I want to see the Killer B’s

  149. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    Anything is possible. A meteor could hit the earth tomorrow. It is not probable, and not in any way the same as free agency or even the posting system. An agent colluding with 1 team cannot stop any of the other teams from drafting the player and the penalties are so harsh its a fantasy scenario. The yankees cannot draft a harper or strasberg type, short of having a top 3 pick.

  150. Irreverent Discourse February 28th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    And when I say “they don’t have to drop money on Hamels”, I literally mean “don’t have to”… if they want to, they are the Yankees and they certainly have the money. if they have an outlook for 2014 that makes sense they can make the move and have crazy lefties for years.

    That would be pretty awesome, but I agree with some of the others that he’s probably going home to Cali anyway.

  151. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    Kind of a double post, on my phone and the fifrst attempt didn’t go through so I tried to reword to avoid filter. Oh well, point stands.

  152. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    “Some are still convinced that the posting fee “doesn’t count” when you look how much Darvsh cost the Rangers. For that, the analogy is perfect.”

    I’m not flunking you out of Analogy Class either way, but if this was really just about the Rangers then I’ll agree not to count it for your final grade. But I can’t give passing marks to this alchohol analogy unless you’re willing to be Hamilton’s personal Sobriety Guardian.

  153. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    ooops :arrow:

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