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Tuesday morning notes: Chamberlain on a full mound

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 28, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

For the first time since last season’s Tommy John surgery, Joba Chamberlain pitched off a full mound this morning. He threw just 16 pitches, a typically light workload for a player getting on a mound for the first time.

“Sixteen pitches, you don’t think that’s much,” Chamberlain said. “But when you haven’t been on a mound since June, your legs get a little tired just from warming up, throwing my long-toss, then my flat ground, before I got on the mound. My legs are a little tired, which is a good feeling. Towards about 10, I could start to feel it. And that’s when you rely on your mechanics and trust your motion. I think I did a pretty good job of that. That’s a part of continuing to build up off the full mound, is getting to 25-30 pitches and getting legs under you.”

Chamberlain is still hoping he’ll be back sooner than expected. He has a best-case scenario in his head, but he said he’s going to “do a Mo” and not tell anyone.

“Everything went great,” Chamberlain said. “It looks like it’s a long ways away I can tell you that much. But it’s a great feeling. It’s great to just be able to get up there and trust my arm, and trust the work I’ve put in to this point. Just to let it go, it’s free and easy. And there’s really minimal effort to get it over there. It was just nice to be able to get on there and get this new chapter started and start the process from here and move on.”

Speaking of Tommy John surgery, David Aardsma has arrived. The former closer said this morning that he’s been throwing from 90 feet for five minutes at a time. I think the Yankees usually talk about rehab stuff in terms of total pitches, not total minutes, but Aardsma is obviously coming from another organization. How much longer will it be before he’s on a mound? “I try to stay away from asking,” Aardsma said.

Aardsma said several teams were interested in signing him, but most wanted to wait until after spring training, when rosters were set. “Right from the get go, the Yankees were the most aggressive team coming after me,” he said. The Yankees wanted to do a deal right away, and Aardsma liked that. He’s expecting to stay in Tampa for his rehab.

Based on usual Tommy John rehab, Aardsma is eyeing the all-star break as a potential return date, but he’s really trying not to think too far ahead. He said he doesn’t want to rush. “We’ve got a bullpen than can handle themselves,” he said. “… Really, when it happen, it happens.”

Rafael Soriano threw an early side this morning, meaning the key pieces of the late-inning Bridge To Mo were all on a mound already today. Dave Robertson and Boone Logan threw batting practice to David Adams and Corban Joseph this morning.

Speaking of which, I talked a little bit with Adams this morning. He said he’s still not quite 100 percent on his ankle. That injury has taken much longer than expected to heal, but Adams has been able to go through regular drills, with his only limitations coming in conditioning. He said he feels pretty good, and you can tell he’s anxious to get going after missing almost two full seasons. He’s a legit prospect, with a big bat for a second baseman.

Andy Pettitte is listed as a batting practice pitcher, but it looks like he’s supposed to throw batting practice in the indoor cage rather than on the field. Can’t say for sure though. Sometimes that schedule is a little confusing.

One workout added to the schedule today: Bunting drills, strictly for Brett Gardner and Dewayne Wise.

Thought it was vaguely interesting that one of today’s outfield drills is called “gap communication.” Should be subtitled, “How to say, ‘I got it.’”

Tomorrow’s early batting practice pitchers: Adam Miller, Mike O’Connor, Cesar Cabral, Ryan Pope and Chase Whitley.

One projected big leaguer is throwing batting practice this afternoon. Today’s batting practice pitchers:

Field 1
Ivan Nova (to Jose Gil)
Clay Rapada (to Jose Gil)
Dan Burawa (to Gary Sanchez)
Kevin Whelan (to Gary Sanchez)
Graham Stoneburner (to Kyle Higashioka)

Field 2
David Phelps (to J.R. Murphy)
Adam Warren (to J.R. Murphy)
Manny Delcarmen (to Gustavo Molina)
Brett Marshall (to Addison Maruszak)
Juan Cedeno (to Addison Maruszak)

Today’s batting practice groups are pretty much the same as always, except that Austin Romine is no longer listed and David Adams has moved into the group with Derek Jeter, essentially taking Robinson Cano’s place.

Group 1
David Adams, Derek Jeter, Brandon Laird, Eduardo Nunez

Group 2
Eric Chavez, Ramiro Pena, Alex Rodriguez, Mark Teixeira, Doug Bernier

Group 3
Russell Branyan, Bill Hall, Jayson Niz, Jorge Vazquez

Group 4
Francisco Cervelli, Jose Gil, Kyle Higashioka, Gary Sanchez

Group 5
Brett Gardner, Curtis Granderson, Raul Ibanez, Andruw Jones, Nick Swisher

Group 6
Chris Dickerson, Justin Maxwell, Cole Garner, Dewayne Wise

Group 7
Zoilo Almonte, Colin Curtis, Melky Mesa, Corban Joseph

Group 8
Addison Maruszak, Russell Martin, J.R. Murphy, Gustavo Molina

Same fielding groups, with Cano and Romine still listed here:

Group 1
C: Kyle Higashioka, Russell Martin, Gustavo Molina, J.R. Murphy
INF: Russell Branyan, Robinson Cano, Eric Chavez, Bill Hall, Derek Jeter, Brandon Laird, Eduardo Nunez
OF: Zoilo Almonte, Colin Curtis, Curtis Granderson, Raul Ibanez, Andruw Jones, Justin Maxwell

Group 2
C: Francisco Cervelli, Jose Gil, Austin Romine, Gary Sanchez
INF: David Adams, Doug Bernier, Corban Joseph, Jayson Nix, Ramiro Pena, Alex Rodriguez, Mark Teixeira, Jorge Vazquez
OF: Chris Dickerson, Brett Gardner, Cole Garner, Melky Mesa, Nick Swisher, Dewayne Wise

Associated Press photo

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514 Responses to “Tuesday morning notes: Chamberlain on a full mound”

  1. blake February 28th, 2012 at 11:05 am

    Stuckey,

    So you think this is a normal development path:

    2007: 70ish minor league innings, bullpen in the big leagues
    2008: back and forth between rotation and pen in big leagues.
    2009 : big league starter with mixed results.
    2010: cord pulled and back to bullpen permanently.
    2011: bullpen and TJS.

  2. Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 11:07 am

    the yankees may be part to blame for hughes and joba, but it doesnt help that they showed up lookin like parade floats the past few seasons.

  3. Erin February 28th, 2012 at 11:09 am

    Thought it was vaguely interesting that one of today?s outfield drills is called ?gap communication.? Should be subtitled, ?How to say, ?I got it.??

    *****************

    :lol:

  4. MTU February 28th, 2012 at 11:09 am

    Bunting practice.

    Gotta go. Have a good one.

    :)

  5. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 11:11 am

    I have a hard time extrapolating any ill-effects from 2008 in those numbers, this essentially arguing a delayed reaction, or that the first 2/3?s of 2009 was based in good luck.

    What about 2008 made August-September 2009 go so wrong?

    He did have some luck in the first half of 2009, a way above league average strand rate until the 2nd half despite his k/9 dropping by 2 from 2008 starter to 2009 starter and his walk rate jumping up by .7 per 9. And what he did not have, was the same stuff that he had in 2008 before he got injured. Even when he came back in the pen he wasn’t the same. His fastball velocity dropped 3 mph from 08 to 09. Even as a starter it was very high in 08.

    The Yankees were trying to optimize what they got out of Joba in 08. They wanted him to start but they also wanted to squeeze out 20 inconsequential innings in relief. I think if they had just rolled with him as a starter he may not have gotten hurt.

    But that being said, they were still foolish to put him back in the pen after 09. He could have been messed up by their tinkering, or simply going through a normal maturation process in the big leagues. Either way, he wasn’t bad enough to warrant ditching, considering how bad Hughes has been in the majors and still left to win every phantom spring competition.

  6. DONNYBROOK February 28th, 2012 at 11:14 am

    Sounds like Joba uncorked it just a little, and got hit in the face with reality. Gonna be a while till he is MLB ready. This is exactly why Soriano is extremely valuable. The depth in the bullpen is gonna allow Girardi to keep the innings of Hughes, Pineda, and Nova from becoming an issue come Sept.

  7. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 11:22 am

    “So you think this is a normal development path:
    2007: 70ish minor league innings, bullpen in the big leagues
    2008: back and forth between rotation and pen in big leagues.
    2009 : big league starter with mixed results.
    2010: cord pulled and back to bullpen permanently.
    2011: bullpen and TJS.”

    You should know by now blake I trust more in what can be documented than anecdotal conclusions reached over time.

    I want to know what normal is and their merits are before I condemn abnormal.

    And that’s the trap. A team can do all the things we expect, that SEEMS normal to us, and a pitcher can still fail. We feel comfortable resting the blame on the pitcher then, because we conclude the team didn’t everything they should.

    Because of this, we tend to conclude that if a team doesn’t do things normally, then the failure lies on the team conclusively, which pretty much ignores that JUST LIKE the pitcher who failed under “normal” circumstances, a pitcher CAN fail on his own under abnormal circumstances as well.

    It’s essentially recognizing ALL variables in the equation.

    I don’t know why Chamberlain didn’t maintain what we saw in 2007-2008. I tend to think a spotty arm to begin with, and perhaps that incident in Texas in 2008, are factors, either of which I don’ t know that I can blame on the yankees.

  8. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 11:25 am

    “I think if they had just rolled with him as a starter he may not have gotten hurt. ”

    You mean gotten hurt in Texas? You’re suggesting causation between how he was used in 2008 and that incident?

    Given how closely you looked at his actual results in 2009, do you think there is merit in the theory the Texas injury may have been a root cause of his effectiveness after?

  9. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    Given how closely you looked at his actual results in 2009, do you think there is merit in the theory the Texas injury may have been a root cause of his effectiveness after?

    Yes. His velocity and crispness of his stuff is really good … then right at the point he got hurt it all drops 3 mph. Clearly his shoulder injury soured the effectiveness of his pitches.

    Before 8/4
    FB avg velocity 95 mph

    After
    FB avg velocity 93 mph , in the bullpen! His velocity should be better in the bullpen than a split sample where 2/3rds of the data comes from starting.

  10. pat February 28th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    “• One workout added to the schedule today: Bunting drills, strictly for Brett Gardner and Dewayne Wise.”

    Aside from the easy Teixeira joke, others on the team could benefit from that drill too.

  11. Best To Ever Do It February 28th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    Joba what could have been.

  12. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    Given how closely you looked at his actual results in 2009, do you think there is merit in the theory the Texas injury may have been a root cause of his effectiveness after?

    ———

    If that injury was the root cause how much can the Yankees be blamed for bringing him back to pitch at the end of 2008 instead of shutting him down?

  13. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    “the yankees may be part to blame for hughes and joba, but it doesnt help that they showed up lookin like parade floats the past few seasons.”

    I think that’s true of Hughes. Joba’s situation is far more complicated.

  14. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    Dropped 2 mph, sorry. 2.5 mph from 08 to 09 and 2 mph from 08 pre injury to post. And of course this is average velocity, Joba was no longer able to hit the upper 90s with regularity.

    Even with that injury though, they still didn’t commit to actually developing him as a starter. For whatever reason they abandoned it in 2010.

  15. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    “Joba what could have been.”

    If handled correctly, I think he can still have a very good ML career.

  16. MaineYankee February 28th, 2012 at 11:39 am

    The truth is somewhere in between.

  17. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 11:49 am

    Okay, then.

    8/4 is at least a solid theory as any on the tipping point (hi Randy!) of his career thus far.

    This leads me to 3 questions.

    1.) Is it a solid conclusion to argue his “development” – including MiL time or lack therefore – was a factor in his getting injured on 8/4?

    2.) Given his medical history prior to his Yankee career and his injury last year, how solid a conclusion is it to reach the Yankees have been responsible for any of his injuries?

    3.) What should the Yankees have done with him post-8/4/2008?

    I tend to think he likely had MRIs and your standard battery of tests as a result of 8/4. I don’t know the full extend of how pitchers are routinely examined during the offseason and before spring training, but I think it a fair conclusion he WAS examined between that incident and prior to the start of 2009.

    So where was the failure?

    Diagnosis?

    or

    Treatment?

  18. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 11:50 am

    3.) What should the Yankees have done with him post-8/4/2008?

    Started him. :)

  19. blake February 28th, 2012 at 11:53 am

    Stuckey,
    You can’t run a baseball team with strictly documented data all the time…..every player is different and there are a host of variables that make it different than a controlled science experiment…….common sense has to play in there somewhere to close the gap.

  20. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 11:54 am

    Oh, goodie!!!

    Joba’s looking fit and ahead of schedule. Bet he’s just dreaming of all those sixth innings that lie ahead in wait for his gifted right arm to conquer, like a kid looks ahead to Christmas!

    Can’t wait, myself!!!

  21. austinmac February 28th, 2012 at 11:54 am

    I think I will have to agree with Stuckey. History cannot be revised. We do not know what would have happened if they had stayed in the minors longer or if they had never pitched in the pen. Pitchers get hurt and/or fail to perform under a variety of circumstances.

  22. LGY February 28th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    What Joba missed out on in the minors was less about developing as a pitcher and much more about building his innings in a controlled fashion.

    His innings, particularly given his medical history, was just nutty.

  23. blake February 28th, 2012 at 11:56 am

    I don’t know if Joba would have ever been a good big league starter or not….but they chose to not find out in favor of making him a middle reliever….which in concept just isn’t smart.

  24. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 11:57 am

    We do not know what would have happened if they had stayed in the minors longer or if they had never pitched in the pen. Pitchers get hurt and/or fail to perform under a variety of circumstances.

    Yup its what the team does after. They’ve stuck with Hughes on a long winding road, but chose to abandon Joba, despite Hughes being a better reliever than Joba and Joba a better starter. A diminished joba throws harder with better secondary stuff than Hughes. I think it has to be injury concerns, but starting gives you a pretty measured schedule for performance, where as a bullpen is erratic and unpredictable.

  25. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Nope, he missed out on being delivered back to Aldred, who was the guy who helped him smooth out his delivery without losing velocity in the first place.

    Instead, he remained in the hands of a butcher.

  26. Best To Ever Do It February 28th, 2012 at 11:58 am

    Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    “Joba what could have been.”

    If handled correctly, I think he can still have a very good ML career.

    ———————–

    He could have a solid career as a arm out of the pen. Smh from potential ace to 6th inning guy.

  27. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    Go, Joba!

    I love how Friedman emphasized that Matt Moore will have no innings limits b/c Rays consciously built him up in a systematic way (as they almost always do)–with the 100 innings per year. If only Joba/Hughes had gone that route. Better luck with Betances and Manny et al going forward.

    I also love that Wade Davis was very vocal this ST, telling the Rays he didn’t want to be in the pen, “I am a starter.” We’ll see who gets that 5th spot for them. Hoping it is Hughes for us.

  28. pat February 28th, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    Different leg kick?

    http://www.tout.com/m/wp9uji

  29. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    “If you don’t have guys like Joba, plain and simple, you’re not going to win championships,” said Alex Rodriguez, who singled in the go-ahead run in the sixth. “To be able to get out of a jam with bases loaded and no outs, you have to have No. 1 stuff. You need a strikeout.”

    Asked which other starters throw that hard, Rodriguez and Derek Jeter named Josh Beckett, Roy Halladay and A. J. Burnett. That is Chamberlain’s class, and he showed it, allowing a run, four hits and a walk over five and two-thirds innings. He struck out nine.
    All that remains is for Chamberlain to be unleashed; he was lifted after striking out the first two hitters of the sixth. Manager Joe Girardi had said Chamberlain could throw roughly 100 pitches, and he was worried one final hitter might work a long at-bat.
    The fans howled when Girardi came to the mound, and he signaled early for a reliever, to keep Chamberlain from making a case to stay. The Yankees had decided on 100 pitches, and 100 pitches it would be.
    “I have to do what’s best for the organization’s interest and the kid’s interest,”

    Chamberlain left the game tied and was guaranteed another no-decision. But his cumulative line from his four starts is impressive: 19 strikeouts in 18 1/3 innings, 5 earned runs and a 2.45 earned run average.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06.....nkees.html

  30. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Moore had the obvious advantage of injury free minor leagues though. Banuelos and Betances would have been on the same schedule had they not suffered so much setback.

    Guys like Phelps, Warren, Mitchell, Nova, and Noesi got the innings treatment Moore did.

  31. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    “What Joba missed out on in the minors was less about developing as a pitcher and much more about building his innings in a controlled fashion.”

    I don’t disagree necessarily …..but I don’t think he had a good idea of how to pitch when he came up….he succeeded mainly on stuff alone for awhile and then struggled when the league adjusted……I remembered a lot of yelling at the TV to stop throwing 3-2 sliders etc…….maybe he would have better learned how to pitch with more minor league time….either way the Yanks didn’t let him work through the struggles.

  32. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Thing is our pitchers should be learning how to be pitchers and not throwers before they come up.

  33. MaineYankee February 28th, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    blake February 28th, 2012 at 11:56 am
    I don’t know if Joba would have ever been a good big league starter or not….but they chose to not find out in favor of making him a middle reliever….which in concept just isn’t smart.

    ————————————————————————————-

    This is where the seperation comes for me. You state that you don’t know how good Joba would be as a SP but then go on to say the Yankees screwed up.

    If you don’t have enough information to know how good he would be, how do you know he didn’t succeed because of how he was handled?

  34. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    Thing is our pitchers should be learning how to be pitchers and not throwers before they come up.

    How much can they learn against inexperienced minor league hitters? Who has struck you as a thrower? Shouldn’t the catcher be guiding sequences and location?

    Like the Joba 3-2 slider thing, he threw all of his pitches in 3-2 counts. The slider was the highest, but it also had the highest strike percentage on 3-2. Clearly he was getting some success on it.

  35. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    “If you don’t have enough information to know how good he would be, how do you know he didn’t succeed because of how he was handled?”

    Nobodys success is guaranteed …..I do know he wasn’t given the chance to do it and unless there is something we don’t know about for a reason then that’s what I have a problem with. No….I can’t say for sure Joba would have developed into a good starter…..nobody can…..I can say that based on what I know it seems that they never gave him a legit shot to see.

  36. MaineYankee February 28th, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:07 pm
    “What Joba missed out on in the minors was less about developing as a pitcher and much more about building his innings in a controlled fashion.”

    I don’t disagree necessarily …..but I don’t think he had a good idea of how to pitch when he came up….he succeeded mainly on stuff alone for awhile and then struggled when the league adjusted……I remembered a lot of yelling at the TV to stop throwing 3-2 sliders etc…….maybe he would have better learned how to pitch with more minor league time….either way the Yanks didn’t let him work through the struggles.

    ——————————————————————

    I think his catchers also told him to stop with the 3-2 sliders.

    Less shaking off the catcher and more willing to learn from them might have given a different result.

  37. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    The only reasoning the Yankees have ever given to my knowledge is that they “like his stuff better out of the pen” …..

  38. luis February 28th, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    Hi everyone,

    Maine,

    I think what blake is trying to say is that they didn’t give the kid the chances to prove that he was a SP, and that converting a potential SP in to a middle relief pitcher in theory is bad baseball management

  39. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    “Less shaking off the catcher and more willing to learn from them might have given a different result.”

    Maybe he was in the big leagues too soon.?

  40. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    Luis,

    Yes…that’s said much better.

  41. luis February 28th, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:18 pm
    The only reasoning the Yankees have ever given to my knowledge is that they “like his stuff better out of the pen” …..

    ==========================

    To be fair, i think i read somewhere that the FO thought at some point that Joba’s body couldn’t withstand the rigors of starting. Don’t necesarily agree with that assestment, but they have the tests and we don’t

  42. MaineYankee February 28th, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:16 pm
    “If you don’t have enough information to know how good he would be, how do you know he didn’t succeed because of how he was handled?”

    Nobodys success is guaranteed …..I do know he wasn’t given the chance to do it and unless there is something we don’t know about for a reason then that’s what I have a problem with. No….I can’t say for sure Joba would have developed into a good starter…..nobody can…..I can say that based on what I know it seems that they never gave him a legit shot to see.

    —————————————————————-

    That’s exactly my point. I find it hard to make a judgment based on what we know as fans looking in from the outside.

    How many times have the players or management been called out for how we perceived things only to find out later what really went on.

    One I can clearly remember is when Posada didn’t hustle to first.

    How the people here howled and wanted to run him out of town, only to find out later he had a hamstring bothering him.

  43. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    I think what blake is trying to say is that they didn’t give the kid the chances to prove that he was a SP, and that converting a potential SP in to a middle relief pitcher in theory is bad baseball management

    —————–

    Extremely bad baseball management. Did they have any idea what they were doing smh

  44. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    “Smh from potential ace to 6th inning guy.”

    IMO, he either closes here or he leaves to start elsewhere.

  45. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    Should have said start or close elsewhere.

  46. hardwired7 February 28th, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    Looking forward to the return of the fist-pumping, fire-breathing Joba – new and improved.

    He’s an excitable boy.

  47. MaineYankee February 28th, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    luis February 28th, 2012 at 12:18 pm
    Hi everyone,

    Maine,

    I think what blake is trying to say is that they didn’t give the kid the chances to prove that he was a SP, and that converting a potential SP in to a middle relief pitcher in theory is bad baseball management

    ————————————————————–

    What I’m saying is that it’s speculation not fact. I don’t mind trying to figure out what went wrong but when it’s stated if the player failed it had to be something the Yankees did wrong that’s speculation.

  48. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    I hope it’s start :)

  49. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    “That’s exactly my point. I find it hard to make a judgment based on what we know as fans looking in from the outside.”

    This comes back to what Nick said yesterday….which was about the idea of always trusting that the Yankees are right because they “have more information ” vs exploring the possibility that that can simply be wrong sometimes.

    The former really doesn’t lead to any kind of discussion….

  50. luis February 28th, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    Just curious, what does smh stands for?

  51. MaineYankee February 28th, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:19 pm
    “Less shaking off the catcher and more willing to learn from them might have given a different result.”

    Maybe he was in the big leagues too soon.?

    ———————————————————-

    Speculation.

    Is that a lack of pitching ability or maturity?

    The RS sent Bucky down to grow up some, maybe Joba needed the same.

  52. luis February 28th, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    blake,

    QFT

  53. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    “What I’m saying is that it’s speculation not fact. I don’t mind trying to figure out what went wrong but when it’s stated if the player failed it had to be something the Yankees did wrong that’s speculation.”

    See that’s twisting what I’ve said though….I never said the Yankees were 100% at fault for Joba’s career…….I just questioned the path they developed him all…..a big portion of a players success is always up to the player…..but what Im talking about is an organizational thought process a few years ago that I think was wrong and honestly I this k the Yankees may now think was wrong as well given how they are now handling their young pitchers.

  54. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    Just curious, what does smh stands for?”

    Shaking my head

  55. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    I don’t think they would handle Joba and Hughes the same way now as they did then…..

  56. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 12:24 pm
    “Smh from potential ace to 6th inning guy.”

    IMO, he either closes here or he leaves to start elsewhere.
    ///

    Hoping the latter, for his sake. Just as long as it isn’t KC. Even though that would put him comfortably close to his home state and family, a reunion with Dave Eiland would be utterly cruel.

  57. luis February 28th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    Odds, yes…..it seems they are making a lot of not so sound moves.

    blake,

    very good post, i do think they learned from their mistakes, and are handling the B’s with more care

  58. MaineYankee February 28th, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:28 pm
    “That’s exactly my point. I find it hard to make a judgment based on what we know as fans looking in from the outside.”

    This comes back to what Nick said yesterday….which was about the idea of always trusting that the Yankees are right because they “have more information ” vs exploring the possibility that that can simply be wrong sometimes.

    The former really doesn’t lead to any kind of discussion….

    ————————————————

    I read what he said and I agree with him.

    You’re missing the point.

    I’m not saying don’t discuss it.

    Speculation is too often confused with fact.

    You can say they screwed up any player you want but without the “full” knowledge how can you say for a “fact” what happened.

  59. luis February 28th, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    thanks blake

  60. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 12:27 pm
    I hope it’s start
    ////

    Morning, Odds. Did you read those ARod quotes I posted from the Times? I was sitting behind the plate for that game, about 40 rows up. We got a great look at Joba’s beautifully moving fastball that day. Saw him tag out AGon at the plate, too.

  61. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    “You can say they screwed up any player you want but without the “full” knowledge how can you say for a “fact” what happened.”

    Just as you can’t say for a “fact” ‘that what the Yankees have done is right (especially when you look at the results), even with their “full” knowledge.

    So where does that leave us….

  62. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    ‘You can say they screwed up any player you want but without the “full” knowledge how can you say for a “fact” what happened.”

    Im giving an opinion….which is always subjective….I never said it was fact…..its just what I think.

  63. luis February 28th, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    Hi JAP!,

    Wasn’t Eiland the one that said that Joba couldn’t start??

  64. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    ‘This comes back to what Nick said yesterday….which was about the idea of always trusting that the Yankees are right because they “have more information ” vs exploring the possibility that that can simply be wrong sometimes.’

    That’s not what I said.

  65. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    The RS sent Bucky down to grow up some, maybe Joba needed the same.
    ///

    Joba needed a reunion with Aldred, who was much more in tune with how to help him progress than Dave Eiland. There are political reasons these things don’t happen…..

  66. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    . Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 12:27 pm I hope it’s start ////

    Morning, Odds. Did you read those ARod quotes I posted from the Times? I was sitting behind the plate for that game, about 40 rows up. We got a great look at Joba’s beautifully moving fastball that day. Saw him tag out AGon at the plate, too

    ——————

    Afternoon JAP yea I read those quotes from A-rod. Thanks for posting them. It’s a shame we will probably never see him reach his potential. I hope he still has that in him. Bit it’s been so long since he started.

  67. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    @ Luis Eiland and Eppler

  68. MaineYankee February 28th, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    blake

    I don’t know if Joba would have ever been a good big league starter or not….but they chose to not find out in favor of making him a middle reliever….which in concept just isn’t smart.

    ———————————————————————————————

    I’m not sure how I twisted this statement.

  69. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    luis February 28th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
    Hi JAP!,

    Wasn’t Eiland the one that said that Joba couldn’t start??
    ///

    Good morning, luis!

    Eiland did a 360, and was suddenly bleating out that he couldn’t start again… It was he and Eppler leading the charge that he wasn’t cut out for starting. Cashman was on the opposite side (I was cheering him for that) but capitulated to their lack of vision.

    I never liked Eiland; he was a pass the buck kind of guy, IMO. He seems a guy who’ll be glad to take the credit, but when things go south, he’s out of there…

    Rothschild understood Joba better in the first five minutes…

  70. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    “That’s not what I said.”

    Pretty much what I thought you meant? Clarify ….

  71. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    But Cash said Joba *could start if they needed him to, that it was just a numbers game when Hughes “won” the 5th starter competition in 2010. And Javy’s presence in the SP was also a factor. So, once again the Yanks didn’t say Joba was a “failed starter” but that there wasn’t a spot for him. Instead Joba should have been sent back to AAA.

  72. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    “Eiland and Eppler”

    The Killer E’s.

  73. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 12:44 pm
    @ Luis Eiland and Eppler
    ///

    The Evil E&E twins

  74. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    sent *down, not back to AAA

  75. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
    “Eiland and Eppler”

    The Killer E’s.
    ///

    touche! Much better than mine! :D

  76. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    “I’m not sure how I twisted this statement.”

    Because you took what I was saying in an unintended direction.

  77. luis February 28th, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    Here is what i really think screw up Joba:

    1) they rushed him through the minors, converted him in to a reliever, because they needed a power arm in the BP in 2007 if i’m not mistaken. I must say that i liked the move then, but that disrupted his routine.

    2) The Joba Rules…..more disruption of his routine

    3) after a very good first season as a starter, he is sent back to the BP

  78. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    luis, but Cash said in March, 2010 that Joba’s development was complete. That is a scary statement.

  79. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    Disclaimer: nobody who posts here does so with full knowledge of each Yankee player or the Yankee organization in general. Opinions stated here are based off of what we the fans see and read from a distance. Post at your own peril.

    Is that better? :)

  80. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    “the yankees may be part to blame for hughes and joba, but it doesnt help that they showed up lookin like parade floats the past few seasons.”

    I think that’s true of Hughes. Joba’s situation is far more complicated.
    ——————

    Rich – first of all Joba had injury issues going back to his Nebraska days – it was one of the knocks on him when they drafted him. Second; yes the Yankees screwed up with the Joba Rules thing and all that – but 2008 and 2009 Joba showed up to spring training looking like the only lifting he did during the offseason were 12 ounce curls

  81. MaineYankee February 28th, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 12:39 pm
    “You can say they screwed up any player you want but without the “full” knowledge how can you say for a “fact” what happened.”

    Just as you can’t say for a “fact” ‘that what the Yankees have done is right (especially when you look at the results), even with their “full” knowledge.

    So where does that leave us….

    ———————————————————–

    You’re reading something into this that I didn’t say.

    I didn’t say the Yankees did everything right.

    I just don’t understand people trying to determine the outcome based on perception.

    “I think” and”they screwed up” is where the disconnect comes for me.

  82. luis February 28th, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:51 pm
    luis, but Cash said in March, 2010 that Joba’s development was complete. That is a scary statement.

    =====================

    I think they just gave up on him…..yikes!

  83. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    Lol @ Rich and Prufrock. I still remember the day those guys made comments about Joba going to the pen. I was so upset I went out and found other boards and blogs to see what other fans thought. That maybe how I found out about Lohud lol.

  84. blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    “I just don’t understand people trying to determine the outcome based on perception”

    What else should we do? Sit around saying…..man that Joba looked like he was going to be good….wonder what happened….bad luck I guess…..oh well…..snore….

  85. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Also, I recall Cash considered having BOTH Joba and Hughes pitch ,in relief in 2010. Now that is comic relief. Hopefully, we have learned from our mistakes but what a waste of SP development time. I also would have sent Hughes down last year, as soon as he lost his velo (like the Giants did with Bumgarner.)

    Have to say though, love Rothschild’s take on the changeup. He will make sure the kids are learning it and refining it in the minors, unlike what we did with Hughes, who somehow always got away from using the pitch while in AA and AAA.

  86. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    blake, lol.

  87. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    luis, but Cash said in March, 2010 that Joba’s development was complete. That is a scary statement

    ——————

    His development was done too bad it was the development of a 6th inning reliever.

  88. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    Joba Chamberlain is another example of the Yankees saying one thing about a player and then acting in a completely different way.

    Cashman, Girardi, etc…kept talking about Joba as a top of the rotation starter, but at every turn they moved him back to the pen; that gives me the impression that the lip service they paid to the “Joba the Starter” stuff was just that. When they did start him, he pitched reasonably well, but was obviously not as dominant as he was in the pen. And again, at that time, the Yankees didn’t really have that many good late inning relief options, Robertson was unheard of, Soriano was still in Tampa. I think they had visions of Joba to Rivera being the new Rivera to Wetteland with Joba taking Mo’s place…and Joba might still take Mariano’s place after this season.

    All in all – I think the notion of Joba the Starter is dead and for those who want to see Chamberlain in any sort of meaningful role with the Yankees you had better warm to the idea of Joba the Closer in 2013.

  89. MaineYankee February 28th, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    Disclaimer: nobody who posts here does so with full knowledge of each Yankee player or the Yankee organization in general. Opinions stated here are based off of what we the fans see and read from a distance. Post at your own peril.

    Is that better?

    ————————————————–

    I had no intention of turning this into an argument and I apologize if it came accross that way.

    We obviously are on different pages so I won’t persue it any further.

  90. Bronx Jeers February 28th, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    The former really doesn’t lead to any kind of discussion….

    ——————————–

    Wherever the truth lies one thing is certain. Nothing stops the discussion in here.

  91. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:51 pm
    luis, but Cash said in March, 2010 that Joba’s development was complete. That is a scary statement.
    ///

    Terrifying.

    The more this management puts their signature on things, with irrevocable moves, the more I have that feeling you see in those formulaic psycho thriller type movies:

    “Oh my God! The calls are coming FROM THE HOUSE!!!”

  92. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    “touche! Much better than mine!”

    Heh.

  93. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    Chip, Joba was learning to be a starter. His numbers were fine. What starter isn’t more dominant in the BP? Hughes and everyone else including David Price was more dominant in the pen. There is no learning curve there.

  94. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    Yeah, well if we don’t discuss, then what are we doing here?

  95. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    luis, but Cash said in March, 2010 that Joba’s development was complete. That is a scary statement.
    ———————

    Not really – if you’re Cashman and you honestly believe that the best you can get from Joba is a dominant relief pitcher – then yeah, his development is complete. Now it’s just a matter of him staying healthy – something he and Hughes have both had major problems doing.

  96. MaineYankee February 28th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    persue==pursue

  97. blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    “I had no intention of turning this into an argument and I apologize if it came accross that way.”

    We are debating not arguing ;)

  98. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Also, I recall Cash considered having BOTH Joba and Hughes pitch ,in relief in 2010. Now that is comic relief.

    ————-

    We believe we have starters(Joba and Hughes) that can relieve – Cashman. That’s what he said in 2010. Lol sounds good take high end starting arms and leave the option open of having them pitch in relief lmao

  99. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    “Cashman does not feel that Chamberlain’s time in the rotation had been a wasted experiment.
    “What we did was, we finished off his development program,” Cashman said. “We have choices with him. He can start if we need him to start, he can relieve if we want him to relieve. So I don’t feel it’s a waste at all. We completed the mission on him, and what will be — will be.”
    Cashman said that the outside perception of Chamberlain as a “failed starter” “would be an inaccurate read.” If Chamberlain were wearing the uniform of another American League East team, such as the Orioles or Blue Jays, Cashman said, fans might think that Chamberlain did a good job for his first season as a big league starter and expect better results in 2010.
    But that was not an option for the Yankees, who acquired Javier Vazquez from the Braves in December, knowing that the move would create a fifth-starter logjam. In fact, Cashman said the idea of having both Chamberlain and Hughes in relief was discussed behind closed doors at one point.
    “Certainly, that’s come up,” he said. “It came up before camp. It’s hard not to think about stuff like that, too. But it’s hard to find those starters.”

    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....8;c_id=nyy

    (btw, Alex looking fierce in the cage. May he please be healthy. Prayers.)

  100. luis February 28th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    His development was done too bad it was the development of a 6th inning reliever.

    ========================

    That’s why it is mind boggling…..A 4 pitch pitcher with at least two plus ones, maybe a third is stashed in the 6th inning role…..i still don’t understand it, unless they gave up on him or he can’t handle the workload. But as far as i’m concerned his numbers where pretty good, even better than Hughes at that point.

  101. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    blake February 28th, 2012 at 12:51 pm
    Disclaimer: nobody who posts here does so with full knowledge of each Yankee player or the Yankee organization in general. Opinions stated here are based off of what we the fans see and read from a distance. Post at your own peril.

    Is that better?
    ///

    Haha

  102. DONNYBROOK February 28th, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    With the signing of Ibanez, just where does Branyan Now fit on the 25 man? Yea, right, maybe a ST injury, maybe trade bait if he tears the cover off of it in ST. Anyway you wannna slice it, No Man’s Land. Should Garcia lose out on the competition for the 5 Slot, his situation bears scrutiny. My guess is he Demands a trade immediately. Garcia has to know that being exiled to the bullpen at this stage of his career, would be the equivalent of being asked if he wanted a Blindfold and Last Cigarette.

  103. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:04 pm

    Odds, just found and posted one of the articles as per what you said.

    (Hang in there, Yankee people, in 3 days we will be watching live baseball. :mrgreen: )

  104. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    Robertson was striking out 13 /9 in 2009, he wasn’t unheard of, Chip. I agree they probably imagined him as an heir apparent, but they were ignoring how he degraded all around post injury and wasn’t as dominant in the pen as others were and how it looked very short sighted.

    It should be obvious to everyone how easy it is to find relievers, no need to dump first rounders there :(

  105. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    “I just don’t understand people trying to determine the outcome based on perception.”

    It’s not perception. It’s in their own words. (see below)

    ““I think” and”they screwed up” is where the disconnect comes for me.”

    They admit that they sacrificed development to service the needs of the ML club. Is that something that we have to be on board with? I think it’s reasonable to call it a screw up because it’s short-sighted, and short-sighted thinking is often counterproductive..

  106. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    and Joba might still take Mariano’s place after this season

    ——–

    Drob and Sori say hi

  107. blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    “What we did was, we finished off his development program,” Cashman said”

    What development program?

  108. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    blake, here’s your original quote and what I said:

    “….and however you feel about the trade that’s why they made it. I wouldn’t have done it…..”

    You haven’t read their scouting reports and internal evaluations or sat in on their discussions, so maybe you would have made the trade knowing what they know.”

    Nothing whatsover about always trusting that the Yankees are right and nothing about not exploring the possibility that they can be wrong sometimes. Just that, if you had access to all the reports that Cashman read and all the advice he got from scouts, maybe you would have made the same decision. “Maybe not” is implied.

    And I also said nothing about opposing dissent, for that matter.

    After you replied to my original comment, blake, I said this:

    “Kind of a straw man. There is basically just one regular commenter here who’s repeatedly articulated a “the Yankees always know best so just sit back and watch what happens” philosophy. [I was referring to someone else; I am not that one regular commenter. Hint: starts with a T.]

    I don’t think you should refrain from commenting because you don’t have the same information the Yankees had when they opted to make the trade, but understanding what you don’t know might lead to better comments.”

    Then you said “Agreed…” and the conversation went on from there until a tar-covered commenter tried to muck it up.

    So I never said anything about always trusting that the Yankees are right, never said not to consider the possibility that they’re wrong. I don’t trust that they’re always right. I do consider the possibility (and likelihood) that they’re sometimes wrong.

  109. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    (Hang in there, Yankee people, in 3 days we will be watching live baseball. )

    ———–

    That’s one of the few good things about this discussion.

  110. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    “If Chamberlain were wearing the uniform of another American League East team, such as the Orioles or Blue Jays, Cashman said, fans might think that Chamberlain did a good job for his first season as a big league starter and expect better results in 2010.”

    I think Joba did a job in 2009. Maybe Cashman underrates O’s/BJ’s fans and overrates Yankee fans.

  111. Bronx Jeers February 28th, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    We completed the mission on him, and what will be — will be.”

    —————————————

    Reading this…….I’m actually pining for a Cashman thrashing by Randy.

  112. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:09 pm

    blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    “What we did was, we finished off his development program,” Cashman said”

    What development program?

    ————-

    The how to screw up your stud prospect development program.

  113. luis February 28th, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:09 pm
    blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:06 pm

    “What we did was, we finished off his development program,” Cashman said”

    What development program?

    ————-

    The how to screw up your stud prospect development program

    ===========================

    LMAO!!

  114. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:12 pm

    DRob should have been used and trusted much earlier. I have been saying that since 2009. On here since I joined. Ditto Rich and I think Prufrock, and whomever else I have forgotten you. But DRob was obvious and a natural, ‘Bama’s closer, ice in his veins and always had great splits. Therefore the SP’s didn’t have to be sacrificed in relief: DRob was there all along to aid the SP development cause.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHsDa9_HSlA

  115. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    Chip, Joba was learning to be a starter. His numbers were fine. What starter isn’t more dominant in the BP? Hughes and everyone else including David Price was more dominant in the pen. There is no learning curve there.
    ——————-

    I don’t mind the Yankees moving Joba to the pen – had they left him there. I never liked the indecision on it. And I loathed the fact that they made his development more important than the team by giving away real games in the major leagues to try and stretch him out in 2008 when he should have been doing that in the minors where development should come before wins and losses.

    I think when they originally moved him to the pen it was because they were limiting his innings (this is in 2007) and then got it in their heads that in 2008 they could have a strong rotation of Moose, Andy, and then three young guys in Wang, Kennedy and Hughes. And so they could then have Joba set up Rivera the way Rivera set up for Wetteland. I don’t necessarily fault them for this line of thinking. The problem was that when Kennedy and Hughes were awful (Kennedy especially) they started thinking “oh poop” and moved Joba back into the rotation. He was good there – but he wasn’t pitching deep into games and was walking a ton of people (something like 4.5/9 IP) and then he got hurt and they decided (for good this time) that’s it – Joba’s a reliever. He’s more dominant there, he seems more comfortable there, and that’s where we’re going to leave him.

  116. luis February 28th, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:05 pm
    and Joba might still take Mariano’s place after this season

    ——–

    Drob and Sori say hi

    =================

    Aardsma says hi too

  117. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    “Cashman does not feel that Chamberlain’s time in the rotation had been a wasted experiment.

    ———–

    How was it not a waste? He’s no longer a starter, there are no plans to have him start, he’s a reliever from here on out, etc.

  118. blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Nick,

    Ok….but I thought it was understood that we are most always commenting with incomplete knowledge. That’s just the reality of being a fan.

  119. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:07 pm
    (Hang in there, Yankee people, in 3 days we will be watching live baseball. )

    ———–

    That’s one of the few good things about this discussion.
    ____

    :mrgreen:

  120. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    @ Luis Mo might say hi again even though it seems unlikely.

  121. Crawdaddy February 28th, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    In that 2010 article, I think Cashman’s quotes are BS. IMO, his actions lately speaks more to what he really believes than what he states in that article.

  122. blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    The Nebraska to rotation to pen to rotation to pen to rotation to pen to Operating room program!

  123. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    “they made his development more important than the team by giving away real games in the major leagues to try and stretch him out in 2008″

    You are kidding, right? Losing him to injury in 2008 hurt our chances of making the playoffs. He had a great 2008; go check your stats.

  124. luis February 28th, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    gainst All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:15 pm
    @ Luis Mo might say hi again even though it seems unlikely.

    =====================
    If that’s the case, then Joba would be a fine 5th inning reliever!!! ;)

  125. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Why not since the Yankees are hell bent on making the games shorter.

  126. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:22 pm

    Joba had a 2.65 FIP 2.60 ERA and a 10.58 K/9 3.50 BB/9 in 2008.

  127. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 1:22 pm

    “Ok….but I thought it was understood that we are most always commenting with incomplete knowledge. That’s just the reality of being a fan.”

    Of course it’s understood. It’s not like my original comment was particulary profound or insightful, but that’s still not an excuse to completely mischaracterize it.

  128. luis February 28th, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    YF,

    Spot on…..In 2008 he was very good, as well as in 2009….sure he wasn’t economical and didn’t reach the six or seventh inning, but that’s part of the learning process….there was no reason to banish him to the BP in 2010, he had a better repertoire than Hughes had, and better numbers up to that point.

  129. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    Gary Sheffield has become an mlb player agent as per mlbtr. lol. Bet he will be a tough negotiator.

  130. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    And so they could then have Joba set up Rivera the way Rivera set up for Wetteland. I don’t necessarily fault them for this line of thinking

    —————–

    I can it was dumb for them to believe that.

  131. blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    “Of course it’s understood. It’s not like my original comment was particulary profound or insightful, but that’s still not an excuse to completely mischaracterize it.”

    Fair enough.

  132. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:29 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    and Joba might still take Mariano’s place after this season

    ——–

    Drob and Sori say hi
    ————-

    Chamberlain is better than either of those two.

  133. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:30 pm

    I do not I can

  134. luis February 28th, 2012 at 1:32 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:28 pm
    And so they could then have Joba set up Rivera the way Rivera set up for Wetteland. I don’t necessarily fault them for this line of thinking

    —————–

    I can it was dumb for them to believe that.

    ==================

    I might add…..What has more value:150-200 innings from a SP or 80 innings in relief…..It’s not only dumb but a poor allocation of resources

  135. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    Chamberlain is better than either of those two.

    Hypothetically, at his peak, but not in real life.

  136. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    Cool story

    Burnett to send teammate’s daughter to college
    Former Yankee will establish fund in exchange for No. 34

    “It’s customary that when a veteran joins a new team and requests his number from an existing teammate, said teammate is rewarded with some kind of trinket; perhaps a Rolex, maybe a new car, or, as former Giants punter Jeff Feagles requested (and received) from Plaxico Burress years ago, a new outdoor kitchen for his vacation home.

    But McCutchen had his family’s future in mind, and according to Bill Brink of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Burnett has agreed to start a College America 529 fund for McCutchen’s unborn daughter as “compensation” for taking No. 34. Once the child is born (she is due in May) and gets a social security number, Burnett will set up the fund.”

    http://web.yesnetwork.com/news.....&oid=

  137. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    And so they could then have Joba set up Rivera the way Rivera set up for Wetteland. I don’t necessarily fault them for this line of thinking

    —————–

    I can it was dumb for them to believe that.
    ————–

    You’re looking back with the benefit of hindsight – but look at it without knowing the outcome:

    At the time (2008) they were looking at a rotation that already had three young starters (Hughes, Kennedy and Wang) Andy and Moose were there and Cashman had probably already targeted CC Sabathia the minute he realized they weren’t getting Santana – so where would you have slotted Joba in that rotation?

    At that point you can either stash him at AAA as a starter or you can see what he can give you in relief. Since the pen was a mess outside of Rivera that’s the way they went. The Yankees hadn’t had a solid bridge to Rivera since Jeff Nelson in the late 90s. They had tried a ton of guys, Karsay, Proctor, Hawkins – they were trying to tell everyone that Farnsworth was still the answer. Now you’ve got this kid who was electrifying the stadium, he was as shut down as you can get – and you’re going to leave him at AAA in favor of Kyle friggin Farnsworth?

  138. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    I might add…..What has more value:150-200 innings from a SP or 80 innings in relief…..It’s not only dumb but a poor allocation of resources
    ///

    luis, this mishandling of Chamberlain is the reason we lost Vizcaino and I daresay, Montero.

    It’s not that the Yankees never do anything right, it’s that when they screw up, that screw up is monumental, produces damaging fallout that they always seem to be trying to compensate for, and that those initial sins undercut some of the good decisions they make.

  139. blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    Nice job AJ and McCutchen too..

  140. luis February 28th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    Chip,

    Did you know that Rivera was a failed SP, because he didn’t develope secondary pitches??…Why would waste a 4 pitch SP to be your closer when you plenty of options already that can do the job?

  141. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    luis February 28th, 2012 at 1:32 pm

    Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:28 pm
    And so they could then have Joba set up Rivera the way Rivera set up for Wetteland. I don’t necessarily fault them for this line of thinking

    —————–

    I can it was dumb for them to believe that.

    ==================

    I might add…..What has more value:150-200 innings from a SP or 80 innings in relief…..It’s not only dumb but a poor allocation of resources
    —————-

    Not when you’re looking at what the Yankees were looking at going into that 2008 season. At that point the question was “Which has more value: 80 IP in the majors or 200 IP in Scranton?”

  142. blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    Robertson just had one of the best reliever seasons ever…..tough to say Joba is better than him right now.

  143. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    “You can’t run a baseball team with strictly documented data all the time…..every player is different and there are a host of variables that make it different than a controlled science experiment…….common sense has to play in there somewhere to close the gap.”

    No, you can’t. But you CAN refrain from drawing conclusion about how a baseball team is run without documentation.

    I agree with you, every player is different. Some will fail or succeed largely outside the influence of how he was “developed”.

    Joba Chamberlain showed and shows an ability to get our major league hitter at an above average rate.

    It strikes me as a solid conclusion, his career has been more effected by arm health and lack of pitching experience in the minor leagues.

    Then the next question becomes, are the yankees mostly responsible or not for his arm health?

  144. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    “Nice job AJ and McCutchen too..”

    It really is.

  145. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    Hopefully, YES Network will show some ST footage tonight during the 7:00 PM Yankees Baseball Daily.

    Has a Yankee CBS radio broadcast schedule been announced yet?

    Anyone remember if we get gameday/pitchfx in non-televised ST games?

  146. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    luis February 28th, 2012 at 1:36 pm

    Chip,

    Did you know that Rivera was a failed SP, because he didn’t develope secondary pitches??…Why would waste a 4 pitch SP to be your closer when you plenty of options already that can do the job?
    ——————-

    I did know that Rivera was a failed starter – I also know that the Yankees did such a poor job with Rivera’s development that they had him listed in their own internal scouting as a sinker slider guy (making me think they couldn’t tell the difference between him and Ramiro Mendoza)

    Take a look – again 2008 – the Yankees didn’t have other options. If they had other options they would have used those in 2007 before calling up Chamberlain in the first place.

  147. ac1 February 28th, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    Bobby V was asked what he remembered about Jason Varitek. “He was a man’s man. … He beat up Alex.” #RedSox

    ___

    A man’s man? Sucker ‘punched’ him and still had his catchers mask on.
    Yeah Varitek is a real man!
    HA!

  148. blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    “No, you can’t. But you CAN refrain from drawing conclusion about how a baseball team is run without documentation.”

    You have a lot of studies to do if you want everything we talk about to be documented…..its not realistic .

  149. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    luis February 28th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
    Chip,

    Did you know that Rivera was a failed SP, because he didn’t develope secondary pitches??…Why would waste a 4 pitch SP to be your closer when you plenty of options already that can do the job?
    _____
    Yep.

  150. luis February 28th, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    JAP,

    Very good point…..Let’s just hope that the right moves outweight the bad ones. later guys

  151. Tackelberry February 28th, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    Yadier Molina’s new contract may just force the Yanks to say goodbye to martin after this season. Insane!

  152. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    Yes leave him in AAA since the GM of the team was stating over and over that patience was needed with the young arms and it was vital to have them develop and become front of the rotation starters. They have themselves to blame for not having a good bridge to Mo. Who told them Crazy Kyle was good enough to set up Mo.

  153. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    At the time (2008) they were looking at a rotation that already had three young starters (Hughes, Kennedy and Wang) Andy and Moose were there and Cashman had probably already targeted CC Sabathia the minute he realized they weren’t getting Santana – so where would you have slotted Joba in that rotation?

    Mussina and Pettitte were FAs after 2008. They would have, at the very least 1 open space in 2009.

  154. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    Robertson just had one of the best reliever seasons ever…..tough to say Joba is better than him right now.
    —————-

    No, it’s tough to say that Joba had a better season than Robertson. It is quite easy to say that Joba is better than Robertson. Frankly I think they’re both good – I think Joba is just better.

  155. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:33 pm
    Cool story

    Burnett to send teammate’s daughter to college
    Former Yankee will establish fund in exchange for No. 34

    “It’s customary that when a veteran joins a new team and requests his number from an existing teammate, said teammate is rewarded with some kind of trinket; perhaps a Rolex, maybe a new car, or, as former Giants punter Jeff Feagles requested (and received) from Plaxico Burress years ago, a new outdoor kitchen for his vacation home.

    But McCutchen had his family’s future in mind, and according to Bill Brink of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Burnett has agreed to start a College America 529 fund for McCutchen’s unborn daughter as “compensation” for taking No. 34. Once the child is born (she is due in May) and gets a social security number, Burnett will set up the fund.”

    http://web.yesnetwork.com/news…..1&oid=
    ///

    We know Burnett’s got a big heart. When they had that Hope Week in 2009, Burnett hung out with those sun-deprived kids until like 4 in the morning. Burnett had mechanical issues that frustrated his and our hopes for him, but the guy is a sweetheart.

    Another guy who some Yankee fans like to piss on is Andruw Jones, who is dedicated, along with his wife, to the cause of helping victims of domestic violence.

    They both travel and do work for an organization called Jacob’s Ladder, a non-profit dedicated to that effort. Jones is an ambassador for them, and he works with the Atlanta chapter (and maybe elsewhere, too) to give his time and energy to this.

    A far cry from the slug with the smile on his face who doesn’t mind making an out whom some have invented to mock.

  156. G. Love February 28th, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    I don’t understand why this team with Kuroda & Garcia not on the roster next season wouldn’t treat Joba as a starter. His one year in the rotation was frustrating but he had some great moments. From what I remember when I think about that year was he was pitching consistently poor coming into the All Star Break and supposedly he went home and his Father gave him a coming to Jesus (not Montero) pep talk and then he came back strong until the trade deadline passed. Once the trade deadline passed he wasn’t very good with a few exceptions.

    Still, I don’t think he did enough wrong that year for the organization to give up on him in that role.

    And the most perplexing thing is when Arizona wanted him for Haren the Yankees balked.

    You’re balking on a guy you treat like your 6th inning guy now?

    The logic of not letting him try starting one last time makes no sense when you can sign a Aardsma off the street to fill Joba’s role as a middle reliever with closing potential.

    The Yankees make a lot of questionable decisions. They seem to have a plan one year and throw it out the following the year if the plan doesn’t achieve the desired result.

    It’s maddening to watch as a fan but at the end of the day they win a lot more than they lose. It just seems, sometimes, when you look at them up close they seem to win in spite of themselves. It’s a bizarre team in that respect. They’re great. They win. But they seem very stubborn and out to prove a point that doesn’t always coincide with the talent they have.

    The one thing I am glad about is they moved Cano to 3rd in the order (or so we think). Guaranteeing him an at bat in the 1st inning all season long will reap results over what Tex had been doing in that spot against RHP.

  157. Yank 97 February 28th, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    Hopefully Joba can go somewhere as a starter and prove Cashman wrong. He got the rawest of raw deals.

  158. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    Did Bobby V. really say that? Ugh. I will make sure to avoid all media/quotes from Valentine during Yankees-Red Sox series… sounds more like a World Wrestling mentality. Why am I not surprised?

  159. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    “Fair enough.”

    Hmmm. I don’t always know what people mean when they say “fair enough”. It sort of sounds like the minimum acknowledgement that someone said something without agreeing with or conceding to anything that was said.

    Do you or do you not get that this

    This comes back to what Nick said yesterday….which was about the idea of always trusting that the Yankees are right because they “have more information ” vs exploring the possibility that that can simply be wrong sometimes.

    was wrong?

  160. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    I might add…..What has more value:150-200 innings from a SP or 80 innings in relief…..It’s not only dumb but a poor allocation of resources

    More to this point, few relievers touch 80 innings. Whats more important, 50-60 innings of relief or 150-200 innings as a starter?

    Cashman et al said Joba was a starter going into 2008. The plan before spring was to stretch him out at some point during the year. I don’t think it was a sudden panic. Maybe they were lying about stretching him out, but it was atleast premeditated. He prepared as a starter that spring.

  161. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    At the time (2008) they were looking at a rotation that already had three young starters (Hughes, Kennedy and Wang) Andy and Moose were there and Cashman had probably already targeted CC Sabathia the minute he realized they weren’t getting Santana – so where would you have slotted Joba in that rotation?

    Mussina and Pettitte were FAs after 2008. They would have, at the very least 1 open space in 2009.
    ——————-

    As I said – Cashman had probably already targeted Sabathia and he knew he could keep either Andy or Moose if he wanted to (I don’t think he knew Mussina was going to retire)

  162. Doc Iac February 28th, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    Pete Abraham ? @PeteAbe

    Bobby V was asked what he remembered about Jason Varitek. “He was a man’s man. … He beat up Alex.” #RedSox

    —-

    umm he did? when? when he mushed his face and still couldnt get the take down

  163. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    And for the record – I’m not saying the Yankees handled Chamberlain correctly.

    I thought the Joba Rules were stupid

    I thought when they tried to stretch him out during major league games instead of sending him to the minors in 2008 was criminally stupid.

    I basically think everything Nardi Contreras does is asinine.

    But if they had made him a reliever and left him there I could understand it just as I could understand it if they left him alone as a starter.

    I think now we’re at a point where the fact of the matter is that Joba’s a reliever, Joba will always be a reliever, and that’s that.

  164. blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    Yea Varitek really “beat up Alex” ….what a joke……Bobby V is doing his best to become part of the rivalry without ever doing anything on the field yet….sad.

  165. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    As I said – Cashman had probably already targeted Sabathia and he knew he could keep either Andy or Moose if he wanted to (I don’t think he knew Mussina was going to retire)

    He could have kept either if he wanted to…or had 4 young starters

  166. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    Joba is not better than Robertson cmon now

  167. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    Valentine will turn into the 2011 Rex Ryan if his team sucks. Fool.

  168. ac1 February 28th, 2012 at 1:48 pm

    Joba v DRob
    It’s always Joba vs Someone no?

    Robertson is so valuble in those midinning situations that i would still think Joba would fit better into the closer’s role (assuming he gets his stuff back)

    Robertson certainly deserves it, but then who will clean up the late inning disasters?

  169. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    So what you’re saying is Joba is more qualified to handle a less important position? Ugh

  170. ac1 February 28th, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    Yea Varitek really “beat up Alex” ….what a joke……Bobby V is doing his best to become part of the rivalry without ever doing anything on the field yet….sad.

    ____

    The ‘beat up’ part was as funny as the ‘man’s man’ part.
    The manliest thing Varitek ever did was bang Heidi Watney….
    Give him props for that, but certainly not for his cheap shot on ARod.

  171. BX33 February 28th, 2012 at 1:49 pm

    “It’s maddening to watch as a fan but at the end of the day they win a lot more than they lose. It just seems, sometimes, when you look at them up close they seem to win in spite of themselves. It’s a bizarre team in that respect. They’re great. They win. But they seem very stubborn and out to prove a point that doesn’t always coincide with the talent they have. ”

    Bingo. They know they will win 90 games regardless of the personnel decisions (must be nice to spend 20-40-60% more than your competition) so they adopt odd ideologies that seem more geared towards proving points or staying in line with outdated mantras (pitching wins championships, even at the expense of your only good young hitter and your old aging lineup + your great young pitching talent).

    They are just a very stubborn, arrogant group. The manager also contributes to the new perception of the organization. Their view on catchers/catching is downright comical.

  172. blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    “Hmmm. I don’t always know what people mean when they say “fair enough”. It sort of sounds like the minimum acknowledgement that someone said something without agreeing with or conceding to anything that was said.”

    Fair enough means ok let’s move on….why are you perpetuating this? I get what you meant now.

  173. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:46 pm

    As I said – Cashman had probably already targeted Sabathia and he knew he could keep either Andy or Moose if he wanted to (I don’t think he knew Mussina was going to retire)

    He could have kept either if he wanted to…or had 4 young starters
    ———–

    And he was looking at doing the former:

    Look, if Wang doesn’t get hurt and if Hughes and Kennedy don’t blow up in 2008 and the Yankees entered 2009 with:

    CC, Andy, Wang, Hughes, Kennedy and a lockdown combo of Chamberlain to Rivera not a single one of you would be complaining about the Yankees handling of Joba right now. Anyone who says differently is full of it and we all know it.

    It didn’t work out – but don’t pretend that any of this holier than thou nonsense is anything more than hindsight.

  174. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:48 pm
    Valentine will turn into the 2011 Rex Ryan ifwhen his team sucks. Fool.

  175. Bronx Jeers February 28th, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    Bobby V was asked what he remembered about Jason Varitek. “He was a man’s man. … He beat up Alex.” #RedSox
    ————

    This goes without saying but I’ll say it anyway….. A “man’s man” would have taken off his mask.

  176. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 1:48 pm
    Valentine will turn into the 2011 Rex Ryan ifwhen his team sucks. Fool.
    ————–

    Valentine was Rex Ryan long before any one ever heard of Rex Ryan

  177. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    CC, Andy, Wang, Hughes, Kennedy and a lockdown combo of Chamberlain to Rivera not a single one of you would be complaining about the Yankees handling of Joba right now. Anyone who says differently is full of it and we all know it.

    I would, because then it means the Yankees lied to everyone in their development of Joba.

  178. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    blake February 28th, 2012 at 1:50 pm

    “Hmmm. I don’t always know what people mean when they say “fair enough”. It sort of sounds like the minimum acknowledgement that someone said something without agreeing with or conceding to anything that was said.”

    Fair enough means ok let’s move on….why are you perpetuating this? I get what you meant now.
    ———————–

    Not to pee in someone else’s pool or anything – but to me “fair enough” means: Well I don’t agree with you, but at least your argument has merit to it. As opposed to some d*wad who just says the same thing over and over again and when asked to back up his opinion can offer absolutely nothing other than the suggestion that his opinion is right because he gave it.

  179. G. Love February 28th, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    BX33 – Couldn’t agree with you more. Girardi drives me up a wall and I truly feel that he points to the winning record as proof his methods work but I think they’d have won all the games they’ve won with him with Lady Gaga as manager. Probably a few more with her.

  180. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    “Fair enough means ok let’s move on….why are you perpetuating this? I get what you meant now.”

    I didn’t get what you meant, nor did I get that you got what I meant. So that’s why.

  181. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    Did you think people weren’t worried that Joba was going to end up a career reliever after already being really good in 2007? Because I was. That means if he stayed a reliever, I would be upset, and I’m sure others would be too, because it is a waste of prospects on the most fungible asset of a team outside of… 4th ofers.

  182. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    CC, Andy, Wang, Hughes, Kennedy and a lockdown combo of Chamberlain to Rivera not a single one of you would be complaining about the Yankees handling of Joba right now. Anyone who says differently is full of it and we all know it.

    I would, because then it means the Yankees lied to everyone in their development of Joba.
    ——————–

    Why would you care? The Yankees would have a terrific rotation and a strong bullpen and you would take it personally that the Yankees were less than truthful with the fan base about the future of Joba Chamberlain? That’s silly. At some point you’re going to have to accept the fact that what the Yankees say to fans through the media and what they do are not always going to be the same thing.

    I don’t give a rat’s behind about what the Yankees say their plans are for specific players as long as they’re telling the truth when they say that they’re going to do what they think will help the team win championships – go right ahead.

  183. Bronx Jeers February 28th, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    Nick Carfardo

    Bobby Valentines attention to detail… Yada, yada …He’s the baseball version of Belichek.

    ————-

    Sounds like someone’s got a new crush.

  184. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    Blake,

    To follow-up on the stuff with Nick.

    I find it an odd dynamic to see people acknowledge that fans can’t expected to have the knowledge to have anything more than a half-assed conversation, but we really like having half-assed conversations, so it is what it is, particularly when so much of the conversation devolves into bitter arguments based in seemingly earnest convictions about what fans think they know.

    You seem to be suggesting it would be boring here if some of us didn’t play the role of reaching rash, unsupported conclusions and try to make hay of them.

    Like I say, I find that odd, mostly because of the desire or urge to want to have an answer for everything. I know why Joba isn’t a dominant starter. To know why the Yankees lost last years ALDS 3 games to 2.

    Because it gives us something to talk about just strikes me as an odd justification.

    This dynamic plays itself in the game threads, as fans try to explain why the Yankees shouldn’t have lost any of the 62 games they will lose in even the best-case scenario and who screwed up if they did.

    Seems like an exercise in utter frustration and futility to desire to understand why everything in baseball happens.

  185. ron February 28th, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    Ask any manager or smart baseball person,and they will tell you,with an arm like joba,and 2 plus pitches,maybe plus plus,and one or two other passable pitches,at joba’s age,it would not be speculation to say that the yankees did not give joba enough time as a starter,especially considering the way hughes struggled,and how long he struggled.

    Also,joba had,and probably still has more pitches than hughes,and better ones.

    They simply did not give joba enough time as a starter,and should reverse course.

  186. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    Did you think people weren’t worried that Joba was going to end up a career reliever after already being really good in 2007? Because I was. That means if he stayed a reliever, I would be upset, and I’m sure others would be too, because it is a waste of prospects on the most fungible asset of a team outside of… 4th ofers.
    —————-

    and if in 2008 Wang doesn’t get hurt, Hughes and Kennedy are good instead of poop, and Joba and Rivera are combining to be the best late game relief in the sport – no one would be listening to you.

  187. Against All Odds February 28th, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    @ Jerkface especially on a team that has shown a knack at finding relievers to set up Mo. Joba, Hughes, Drob, Wood,etc

  188. blake February 28th, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    “I didn’t get what you meant, nor did I get that you got what I meant. So that’s why.”

    Ok

  189. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Moose obviously peaced out, and Pettitte had a poor 2008 and had to sign a very low base deal with lots of incentives to come back to the Yankees in 09. Its a far cry to say that Cashman was planning on bringing him back.

    If wang didn’t die, Hughes & kennedy not injured and atrocious, there is some merit to the idea they would have signed CC only. No Burnett. And rolled with CC, wang, hughes, kennedy, chamberlain.

    Of course it didn’t work out that way, as pitching often doesn’t so why shove one of your finest pitching assets, the #3 prospect in all of baseball, into the bullpen? You would be hard pressed to find ANY team that would stick a top 5 prospect starting pitcher in the bullpen as quickly as the Yankees did.

  190. ac1 February 28th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    Bobby Valentines attention to detail… Yada, yada …He’s the baseball version of Belichek.
    ————-
    Sounds like someone’s got a new crush.

    ____

    True, if Belicheck had never won 3 superbowls……

  191. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    “Couldn’t agree with you more. Girardi drives me up a wall and I truly feel that he points to the winning record as proof his methods work but I think they’d have won all the games they’ve won with him with Lady Gaga as manager. Probably a few more with her.”

    So then you consider the Yankees essentially have been a failure the last 4 seasons?

    I sometimes have a REALLY hard time seeing the upside of being a Yankee fan for some of you.

    There is NO joy in winning the World Series if this is the expectation. There can’t be any acknowledgement of accomplishment.

    There can only be temporary relief.

  192. ac1 February 28th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Andrew Marchand ? @AndrewMarchand
    It seems to me that Martin has to get at least $30, maybe $40, possibly $50 after Molina deal.

    ___

    Not from the Yankees he isnt.

  193. Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    and if in 2008 Wang doesn’t get hurt, Hughes and Kennedy are good instead of poop, and Joba and Rivera are combining to be the best late game relief in the sport – no one would be listening to you.

    Ifs and buts, Chip. You don’t have to be listening to me now, but all the people who followed Joba’s rise through the minors, read the reports, watched the videos, saw him pitch, would remember they had a starter going into the 7th inning in the minors throwing 99 with 3 plus secondary pitches. And they’d be lambasting the Yankees for wasting the #3 prospect in baseball.

    You think the yankees should get a medal for deducing that good starters make great relievers, that we should bake them a cake and pat them on the back? Good job, you found a guy that can throw 99 as a starter and put him in the pen, gee whiz. Why didn’t detroit do that with verlander? Don’t they know about the 8th inning! You’re also assuming Joba would have been awesome in relief, when he already showed that he wasn’t as lockdown as most thought in 08, having a 2.9 ERA out of the pen when he was converted to a starter.

    People who were excited about Joba as an 8th inning guy fail to understand a certain fundamental of baseball and team composition and the work each player contributes.

  194. Rich in NJ February 28th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    “True, if Belicheck had never won 3 superbowls……”

    Yeah, Bill B. is state of the art.

  195. blake February 28th, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Stuckey,

    I think you’re going way deeper than you have to….and making it way more complicated than it needs to be. If you want more informed conversation about the game then I guess you’ll just have to pursue it as a profession and get on the inside with a team…….

  196. ac1 February 28th, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    Couldn’t agree with you more. Girardi drives me up a wall and I truly feel that he points to the winning record as proof his methods work but I think they’d have won all the games they’ve won with him with Lady Gaga as manager. Probably a few more with her.”
    ___

    By this argument, there really isnt even a need for a manager.
    Boston could win without Francona.
    Yankees could have won 96-00 without Torre
    The Royals could be this bad every year no matter who their manager is.

  197. yankeefeminista February 28th, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    It is naive to think the Yankees would have rolled with 3 kids. They never would have and ultimately didn’t tolerate the growing pains. It was theoretically interesting, but it strikes me as very naive of the Yanks to think that we were going to bring in 3 kids all of whom were on a learning curve and expect them to all be successful finished products. Then we went to the other extreme and tried to fill in from without and essentially banished young pitcher development (see Joba). Both extremes show a team that did not know how to develop starting pitching.

  198. Nick in SF February 28th, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    “Ok” is the poor man’s “fair enough”. Now I think you’re doing it on purpose! :mad:

  199. Chip February 28th, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    Jerkface February 28th, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    Moose obviously peaced out, and Pettitte had a poor 2008 and had to sign a very low base deal with lots of incentives to come back to the Yankees in 09. Its a far cry to say that Cashman was planning on bringing him back.

    If wang didn’t die, Hughes & kennedy not injured and atrocious, there is some merit to the idea they would have signed CC only. No Burnett. And rolled with CC, wang, hughes, kennedy, chamberlain.

    Of course it didn’t work out that way, as pitching often doesn’t so why shove one of your finest pitching assets, the #3 prospect in all of baseball, into the bullpen? You would be hard pressed to find ANY team that would stick a top 5 prospect starting pitcher in the bullpen as quickly as the Yankees did.
    ————————-

    You’re right – it didn’t work out and in 2009 the Yankees came back with a rotation of what? That’s right:

    CC, Burnett, Andy, Wang and Joba.

    They went back to Chamberlain in the rotation – he wasn’t particularly good. He was walking a ton of guys, he wasn’t able to pitch deep into games, he was looking pretty average. Then in the playoffs they used him out of the pen (because they didn’t need all the starters) and he was again a dominant pitcher. He seemed more relaxed, he was a ton more effective…so they flipped him and Hughes the next year.

  200. stuckey February 28th, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    Are the Yankees seemingly committed to Chamberlain to the bullpen because of questions they have about this make-up/stuff/repertoire/stuff?

    Or because of questions about this arm/health/durability?

    If the latter, does his TJ surgery inform this bias, or were the Yankees the cause of it?

  201. J. Alfred Prufrock February 28th, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    Bingo. They know they will win 90 games regardless of the personnel decisions (must be nice to spend 20-40-60% more than your competition) so they adopt odd ideologies that seem more geared towards proving points or staying in line with outdated mantras (pitching wins championships, even at the expense of your only good young hitter and your old aging lineup + your great young pitching talent).

    They are just a very stubborn, arrogant group. The manager also contributes to the new perception of the organization. Their view on catchers/catching is downright comical.
    ///

    It’s comical and tragic. Unfortunately, they’re not that different than other mediocre management types. The Jets, for instance, are building their team on Rex Ryan’s identity points. They sign excellent receivers and then carp on about the running game, that they’re a “ball control” type offense, when in fact they got rid of the guy who could do that for them (Thomas Jones).

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