The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Pregame notes: Ibanez takes his spot in the lineup

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 02, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Felt like just another day in the Yankees clubhouse this morning. Playing South Florida doesn’t necessarily get everyone worked into a frenzy.

We already knew Robinson Cano wouldn’t be playing today, but keeping him out of the lineup keeps us from getting a first look at Joe Girardi’s projected middle of the order. I have to think he’s planning to us Cano, Rodriguez, Teixeira — in that order — but it would have been nice to see it.

A mild surprise: Raul Ibanez batting ahead of Nick Swisher. The Yankees could flip those two without having two lefties or two righties back-to-back, but based strictly on the lineup posted today, it looks like Ibanez is going to bat ahead of Swisher.

• Rafael Soriano and Dave Robertson threw batting practice today. They pitched to Corban Joseph and Melky Mesa. Otherwise, no big league pitchers are expected to pitch today.

• George Kontos played catch today and gave the session a thumbs up. He’s been saying for several days that his sore oblique felt 100 percent, so I don’t think he was too worried about today’s next step.

• Ivan Nova gets the start in tomorrow’s Grapefruit League opener, but that day will actually start with Phil Hughes throwing a sim game in Tampa. He’ll pitch to Gustavo Molina, facing Colin Curtis and Francisco Cervelli.

• CC Sabathia and Michael Pineda are throwing sides tomorrow.

• Today’s second string: C Jose Gil, 1B Brandon Laird, 2B David Adams, SS Doug Berner, 3B Ramiro Pena, LF Zoilo Almonte, CF Melky Mesa, RF Colin Curtis, DH Jorge Vazquez.

• Today’s available pitchers: Adam Warren, Brett Marshall, Dan Burawa, Graham Stoneburner, Ryan Pope, Kevin Whelan, Juan Cedeno, Mike O’Connor, Chase Whitley and Adam Miller. Looks like only the first six or seven are actually expected to pitch.

• Tomorrow’s travel squad:

Pitchers: Ivan Nova, Manny Banuelos, Dellin Betances, Cesar Cabral, Juan Cedeno, D.J. Mitchell, Mike O’Connor, David Phelps, Clay Rapada and Chase Whitley
Catchers: Jose Gil, Russell Martin, J.R. Murphy and Gary Sanchez
Infielders: David Adams, Doug Bernier, Eric Chavez, Bill Hall, Corban Joseph, Brandon Laird, Jayson Nix, Eduardo Nunez, Ramiro Pena and Jorge Vazquez
Outfielders: Zoilo Almonte, Chris Dickerson, Brett Gardner, Cole Garner, Curtis Granderson, Raul Ibanez, Justin Maxwell, Melky Mesa, Nick Swisher and Dewayne Wise

Associated Press photo

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290 Responses to “Pregame notes: Ibanez takes his spot in the lineup”

  1. yankeefeminista March 2nd, 2012 at 10:43 am

    re-post

    yankeefeminista March 2nd, 2012 at 10:35 am
    Go Warren, Go Marshall, Go Yanks!

    I am assuming the game will be broadcast on U Fla. radio. I found a link; hopefully we can listen live for free. However, there is also a pay link if the first doesn’t work. I will post both individually, as per Lohud’s policy permitting only one link per post.

    http://bullsradio.org/

  2. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 10:45 am

    YF, thanks for link. I am beside myself that we don’t get to see Warren and Marshall pitch today.

    Marshall, at least, we get in Trenton this season.

    Tomorrow’s is a great cast of young pitching, however, and that is televised. :D

  3. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 10:45 am

    “but the fact remains that the Yankees haven’t always made the best decisions over the last 15 years and yet they’ve still made the playoffs every year….partly because of a strong core developed before the big spending but also because they could spend their way past mistakes….”

    blake, I think the glass half-full faction of Lohud is suggesting the open-ended spending has maybe led to misappropriated spending, which has necessitated the spending past the mistakes.

    I’m looking forward to the new scrutiny perhaps leading to less mistakes.

  4. yankeefeminista March 2nd, 2012 at 10:45 am

    re-post

    yankeefeminista March 2nd, 2012 at 10:35 am
    http://www.gousfbulls.com/live…..0&KEY=
    ______
    Hoping one of these links goes to live baseball at 1PM.

  5. yankeefeminista March 2nd, 2012 at 10:47 am

    Pruf you’re welcome. Tomorrow I am working all day. :( But mlbn has replay at 8PM. Looks like Killer B’s will pitch. :)

  6. MTU March 2nd, 2012 at 10:48 am

    At this point in ST Pitchers are usually ahead of hitters.

    Factor that into your thinking when you watch.

    ;)

  7. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 10:50 am

    Spending less money can help the bottom line, but it can’t help the on field product. It can only hurt. Maybe it’s inevitable, but there’s no reason to wear rose colored glasses.

    My feeling, though, is that we all get old sometime. This year will be good.

  8. Shame Spencer March 2nd, 2012 at 10:50 am

    Repost:

    Shame Spencer March 2nd, 2012 at 10:49 am

    Yeah I think I’d have less of an issue with the budget if we had ANY position players ready to break into our line up in the next three years. Looking at things now, it seems like only Williams and Romine might be able to contribute by 2014-2015… am I missing anyone?

  9. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 10:53 am

    “if the Yankees are unable to expend money for large contracts they will lose key players and be unable to replace them from the minor or by acquisitions of established players.

    That will result in a lesser team with fewer wins.”

    The flipside of this argument is why hasn’t the doubling of payroll led to a greater team with more wins.

    What evidence suggests this has been the case?

    “To say they will have a high payroll is not really addressing the question of how they can move forward. The Rangers, Marlins, Phils and many more will be able to improve by acquiring good players to fill needs. That is a clear advantage over the Yankees going forward.”

    So boiled down, what this argument is REALLY saying is the Yankees payroll of $200m offers them marginal advantage over these teams you identify, because you’re expressing the concern if they up their payroll to Yankees levels, they will PASS the Yankees on the field.

    The simple question this position raises is, what is the virtue of spending advantage if is apparently so marginal?

    And again, this is an argument in a vacuum. It assumes other teams are only moving in one direction.

    I’ve detailed this often – the majority of Texas’ line-up are ALL hitting FA before 2014, including Hamilton, Cruz, Napoli, Kinsler and Young.

    The Phillies rotation is VERY good and VERY expensive but not exactly young, and they have serious issues on offense.

    Looking over your shoulder and assuming every is catching up and has none of your same problems is a common fan mentality.

  10. DONNYBROOK March 2nd, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Hal Gekko’s $189 Mill Proclamation gave Russell Martin a 2013 Pink Slip.

  11. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 10:57 am

    “Spending less money can help the bottom line, but it can’t help the on field product. It can only hurt.”

    And herein lies the philosophical divide. The view there is no way to build a better mousetrap.

    Rays can put a 90 team on the field for $50m and some Yankee fans have convinced themselves they can’t put a GREAT team on the field unless they go farther into the $200 millions.

    Something’s out of whack.

  12. Shame Spencer March 2nd, 2012 at 10:59 am

    “I think the glass half-full faction of Lohud is suggesting the open-ended spending has maybe led to misappropriated spending, which has necessitated the spending past the mistake.

    I’m looking forward to the new scrutiny perhaps leading to less mistakes.”

    But stuckey, this is where you lose me, because according to you the Yankees have clearly had a plan to curtail spending over the last several seasons. If they have already been so budget conscious, then why do we need to wait to evaluate their spending?

    I’m pretty sure the only reason we’ve been able to continue making the playoffs is because we’ve been band-aiding our mistakes with more money, especially during some of the 2002-2007 years. I am absolutely willing to wait and see as I have no choice lol, and fully give them the benefit of the doubt that they can do it, but it will certainly be interesting because they’ve shown absolutely no aptitude for it up to this point.

  13. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 11:00 am

    “it seems like only Williams and Romine might be able to contribute by 2014-2015… am I missing anyone?”

    Heathcott, Austin, Murphy and Bichette are all starting 2012 at Low A like Williams or High A, not to mention Sanchez.

    Sanchez is likely on the slower path due to position/age, but if project 2014-15 as a possible window for Williams, no reason to be include some of those other guys.

  14. Doc Iac March 2nd, 2012 at 11:01 am

    stuckey

    the rays got ten thousand and six high first rd picks, if draft picks were money spent their payroll would be over $200

  15. DONNYBROOK March 2nd, 2012 at 11:02 am

    - stuckey -
    Forget the Yankee onfield record. This team is running in the black, is appraised at being worth over several BILLION $$$, and is worth more than ANY team in MLB. NOT one time yesterday did Hal talk about the Yankee record. Hal Gekko officially put his stamp on the Yankees yesterday. Greed is Not good if your a Yankee fan.

  16. Eroc March 2nd, 2012 at 11:03 am

    The Montero trade makes sense in the context of the Yankees new goals

    They were never going to sign Hamels/Cain to $150 million dollar deals and they need pitching for the long haul

    They simply couldn’t afford to keep Montero around as a DH without a position while hoping the pitching from within came through or they could get lucky annually with reclamation projects.

    In the new post-CBA landscape, Montero was a luxury they couldn’t afford. So if they didn’t use Montero to acquire pitching, they wouldn’t have any proven pitching moving forward unless the farm produced it. Cashman can talk about Hughes winning 20 games all he wants, but the fact is, they needed production, not projections/wishful thinking

  17. LGY March 2nd, 2012 at 11:03 am

    LGY – Any ideas on if the CBA would allow teams to sign players to crazy long term deals to lower their AAV?

    ——–

    Shame

    I’m not sure I understand the strategy exactly.

    Can you give an example and I’ll let you know how it would work as it relates to the luxury tax?

  18. Erin March 2nd, 2012 at 11:04 am

    YankeesWFAN RT @SBerthiaumeESPN Pirates say A.J. Burnett will be out 8-12 weeks after surgery this morning to repair fractured orbital bone in right eye

  19. Shame Spencer March 2nd, 2012 at 11:04 am

    Heathcott, Austin, Murphy and Bichette are all starting 2012 at Low A like Williams or High A, not to mention Sanchez.

    Sanchez is likely on the slower path due to position/age, but if project 2014-15 as a possible window for Williams, no reason to be include some of those other guys.

    ————————

    Fair point, only problem is these guys are at such low level ball we have no idea how the next three season are going to play out for any of them. You have to at least assume 50% of the guys we’re targeting never make it to the big show or flame out or get injured. It’d be kinda nice if we had even one position player prospect that was close.

  20. CompassRosy March 2nd, 2012 at 11:06 am

    “I just read that lux tax article from a Phillies blog Chad linked to last night and it mentioned their TV deal expires in 2015.”

    ~

    M’s are able to opt out of their current TV deal in 2015, enabling them to either renegotiate or, possibly, start their own RSN. The timing could work out well if, within the next couple of years, their wealth of young talent blossoms. And, if those who are trying to bring the NBA and NHL back to Seattle are successful, it would mean more partnership possibilities for that RSN and a better chance for the M’s to keep up with the Joneses, er, Angels and Rangers.

    Oh yeah… You go, Rauuuuuuul :)

  21. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 11:07 am

    “If they have already been so budget conscious, then why do we need to wait to evaluate their spending?”

    Because some evidence to suggest, factions with the Yankees hierarchy has led to uneven decision making. Can’t remove the passing of GS as a factor either.

    We know the circumstances behind the Arod extension and Soriano signings. Perhaps I’m being optimistic, but I’m expecting, given the new incentives the new CBA offers, than a more singular vision will be guiding the team moving forward.

    Could be wrong, could be business as usual.

    “I’m pretty sure the only reason we’ve been able to continue making the playoffs is because we’ve been band-aiding our mistakes with more money, especially during some of the 2002-2007 years.”

    What were the big mistakes band-aided during that time?

  22. blake March 2nd, 2012 at 11:07 am

    “I’m looking forward to the new scrutiny perhaps leading to less mistakes.”

    sure…that’s the hope. Luckily the Yanks turned over somewhat of a new leaf a couple of years ago because if they had continued to operate the way they were there for awhile and then this new CBA came down they would have been screwed big time.

    They were already starting to do some of the things they need to do before it happened…..probably because they foresaw it coming.

  23. Tom in N.J. March 2nd, 2012 at 11:08 am

    “Any ideas on if the CBA would allow teams to sign players to crazy long term deals to lower their AAV?”

    Kind of like what has happened in the NHL where players have been signing front loaded contacts for absurd lengths. Like 17 years for 90 million dollars.

  24. Shame Spencer March 2nd, 2012 at 11:09 am

    LGY March 2nd, 2012 at 11:03 am

    LGY – Any ideas on if the CBA would allow teams to sign players to crazy long term deals to lower their AAV?

    ——–

    Shame

    I’m not sure I understand the strategy exactly.

    Can you give an example and I’ll let you know how it would work as it relates to the luxury tax?
    —————————–

    Ok, we want to give Cano a deal that will keep him here for the duration of his career but won’t kill us in cap space ($189 mil for our purposes..and I can’t believe I’m typing the words ‘cap space’ on a baseball blog lol, I hate the new CBA..). So we don’t want to pay him a high AAV, but at the same time we know there are teams x and y that are willing to go to the $200 million mark for Cano’s services. So what if we offered him like $250 million over 17 years to keep his AAV at $14.8 million knowing there’s know what Cano can play for the full length of the contract. 1) Is there anything that would stop a deal like that from going through other than the fact that its blatantly obvious why the contract would be constructed that way? 2) How would it count against our luxury tax if he retires before the deal is up?

  25. Doc Iac March 2nd, 2012 at 11:10 am

    YankeesonDemand ? @YankeesonDemand

    Reply
    Retweet
    Favorite
    · Open

    The Captain just hit 2 over the wall in left during BP

    thats what i like to hear

  26. austinmac March 2nd, 2012 at 11:10 am

    Stuckey,

    The Yankees have had an advantage for many years with their higher payroll. I have never minded that since baseballis much more fun when your team is good. I lived for many years with low spending and very bad Yankee teams. That is not fun.

    Arguing free spending doesn’t assure winning the championship misses my point. The inability to spend money to fill needs is harmful.

    You say money spending has marginal benefits. The benefits have been many years of being in the playoffs.

    Almost every other team, with the Sox and Phils the possible exceptions, are far from the salary limit. Those teams seem to be willing to spend to improve. That is an advantage over the Yankees who, not only won’t spend to improve, but will lose some of what they have because of the limit.

    Cheap does not necessarily equal wise. To think they will make all the right calls on players is unrealistic.

    Can they still win? Yes, but lower future spending will, without any question inmy mind, signficantly reduce the likelihood.

  27. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 11:11 am

    “And herein lies the philosophical divide. The view there is no way to build a better mousetrap.

    Rays can put a 90 team on the field for $50m and some Yankee fans have convinced themselves they can’t put a GREAT team on the field unless they go farther into the $200 millions. ”

    You can build a better mousetrap without more money, but not a consistently better mousetrap.

    The Rays can put a 90 win team on the field for a few years without money. They can’t consistently put a 90 win team on the field without money.

    The notion that you can continually compete without money is illusory. All 30 teams are on an even playing field when it comes to building a better organization. There’s no reason to believe the Yanks will succeed at building a better organization than 29 other teams if you leave money out of the equation.

  28. Shame Spencer March 2nd, 2012 at 11:11 am

    Tom in N.J. March 2nd, 2012 at 11:08 am

    “Any ideas on if the CBA would allow teams to sign players to crazy long term deals to lower their AAV?”

    Kind of like what has happened in the NHL where players have been signing front loaded contacts for absurd lengths. Like 17 years for 90 million dollars.
    ———————

    Exactly.

    They could theoretically front load a deal for Cano that would pay him $200 over 8 years but have the contract last for 17.

  29. Erin March 2nd, 2012 at 11:12 am

    BloggingBombers Nick Swisher greets the USF team … Then gives a special greeting to the camera. http://www.tout.com/m/fmb86t

  30. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 11:13 am

    “What were the big mistakes band-aided during that time?”

    Does the name Carl Pavano ring a bell?

  31. Yank1 March 2nd, 2012 at 11:17 am

    Basically, the Yankees are making themselves suffer. The new CBA makes added payroll hurt, but it doesn’t prevent the team from doing so.

    Their big advantage post-2001 was their ability to not lose players they really wanted to keep, not miss out on FAs they really wanted, and cover up FA mistakes with band-aids or bail themselves out at the deadline if something went wrong.

    None of those things are likely moving forward.

    Austin Romine is going to replace a catcher who made the ASG last year?

    Some stopgap Austin Kearns type CF is going to replace the .850 OPS Swisher averaged over the last 3 years?

    Even though Grandy will be hitting his mid-30s, if he keeps up his level of production, he’s getting $120 million and normally the Yankees would never let a guy like that walk, now they probably have to.

    Robertson is going to get a new deal. If Hughes is this frontline starter in Cashman’s imaginary world, he will be getting good $$ as a FA. Nova/Pineda are arb. eligible in 2014.

    Bottom line – if they stick to their guns, they are going to have to let key pieces that we want to keep, walk. And replace them with cheaper guys who are far less certain to produce, which will inevitably decrease their chances of winning.

    Yankees also need to adopt the Boston/Tampa idea of locking guys up to big discounts a few years before FA.

    The old Yankees would have kept Montero and signed Hamels as a FA and had the best of both worlds. The new Yankees chose 1 and it remains to be seen if they made the right choice. The new theme of the Yankees is sacrifice, because that is what they are going to have to do.

  32. Shame Spencer March 2nd, 2012 at 11:18 am

    “What were the big mistakes band-aided during that time?”

    Lofton/Sheffield (always felt like one was a band-aide for the other just never knew which lol), we needed Tino pt II (because of Giambi pt I), Clemens pt II (because of awful rotation construction), Irod.. I feel there are more but those are just off the top of my head and I didn’t even want to consider the pen because I know we burned a bunch of cash on arms that mostly blew (or in the case of Gordon, only blew when it mattered most).

  33. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 11:18 am

    In the new post-CBA landscape, Montero was a luxury they couldn’t afford. So if they didn’t use Montero to acquire pitching, they wouldn’t have any proven pitching moving forward unless the farm produced it. Cashman can talk about Hughes winning 20 games all he wants, but the fact is, they needed production, not projections/wishful thinking
    ////

    Montero is cheap for the next six years also. With the lack of ML ready bats in the system, Montero wasn’t a luxury, he was a necessity.

    With all the pitching they have, Pineda is the luxury, and he is a dynamic power arm in development, not “proven.” If he’s “proven”, then so is Hughes, based on 2010. This is the sophomore year for him, I’ll be encouraged if he just gets through the season healthy.

  34. blake March 2nd, 2012 at 11:20 am

    hate that for AJ….really stinks.

  35. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 11:22 am

    The old Yankees would have kept Montero and signed Hamels as a FA and had the best of both worlds. The new Yankees chose 1 and it remains to be seen if they made the right choice. The new theme of the Yankees is sacrifice, because that is what they are going to have to do.
    ///

    See, I don’t buy into their either/or in the first place. The premise is shaky. All they had to do is sign Kuroda, keep Montero, and instead of signing Hamels or Cain, integrate one or both of Betances or Banuelos into the starting rotation next season.

    This BS that they “had” to “sacrifice” Montero to save the starting pitching is wrong-headed in the extreme.

  36. Erin March 2nd, 2012 at 11:23 am

    RealMichaelKay #ARod in the cage http://pic.twitter.com/u6zohZu6

  37. blake March 2nd, 2012 at 11:24 am

    “What were the big mistakes band-aided during that time?”

    Kei Igawa, Carl Pavano, Jared Wright, AJ Burnett, Nick Johnson, all kinds of developmental issues with prospects and drafting……..I mean they have dealt with tons of problems over the last decade that would have sunk a lot of teams long term…..

  38. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 11:24 am

    The Yankees payroll expanded wildly in the 2000s as contracts expanded. They did not have a large payroll before 2000 because contracts were small. Reminder that in the 80s, making 1 million dollars was a big deal. Now we pay Raul Ibanez 1 million to be our ‘likely to be cut-DH’.

    There are more contracts worth 100 million total, or 20 million dollars in the game right now than ever before. The average payroll has doubled from 1998 to now.

  39. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 11:25 am

    Shame,

    Your idea works but MLB might poopoo it. Doing extensions helps keep the AAV down (HEY YANKEES PAY ATTENTION) and signing very long deals to spread out money is ok, as long as you keep the AAV and are prepared to cut players when needed.

  40. Bronx Jeers March 2nd, 2012 at 11:26 am

    This was written in late 2010 but I think it gives a decent look at Yankee revenue and costs beyond payroll.

    http://itsaboutthemoney.net/ar.....-budget/

  41. blake March 2nd, 2012 at 11:26 am

    yup…that Yanks have just kept up with the crazy inflation of baseball contracts over the last 10 years…..and folks wonder why Bud is still around? He makes the sports truckloads of cash thats why….

  42. Eroc March 2nd, 2012 at 11:28 am

    AndrewMarchand
    The thing about getting below $189M, it could breed a much hungrier team. Younger players who haven’t made as much $$.

    AndrewMarchand
    That is not to say the marquee guys don’t care. They do care, but often they are on the downside and are getting bigger paycheck.

  43. blake March 2nd, 2012 at 11:28 am

    I don’t think MLB would allow any kind of contract adjusting that would get teams out of paying luxury tax…..they seem to have covered almost every angle on that.

  44. Crawdaddy March 2nd, 2012 at 11:31 am

    So Montero is a necessity while Pineda is a luxury that is unproven. Got it!

  45. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 11:31 am

    “The notion that you can continually compete without money is illusory. All 30 teams are on an even playing field when it comes to building a better organization. There’s no reason to believe the Yanks will succeed at building a better organization than 29 other teams if you leave money out of the equation.”

    Wave, who’s leaving money out of the equation?

    Yankees HAVE the highest payroll in baseball. This represents a current advantage.

    29 other teams aren’t getting close to $189m any time soon. This represents an advantage moving forward.

    How is the $70-$90 more the Yankees spending and will continue to spend over the average team being left out of the equation?

    “Those teams seem to be willing to spend to improve. That is an advantage over the Yankees who, not only won’t spend to improve, but will lose some of what they have because of the limit.”

    Austin, like wave, you seem to be leaving out what the Yankees much larger payroll has ALREADY got them.

    Your math suggests if the Yankees spend $189m and Texas spends $189m, Texas gains the advantage.

    Why? Break it down for me fundamentally?

  46. LGY March 2nd, 2012 at 11:31 am

    Shame

    I vaguely recall reading something in the CBA that said for a contract year to be considered a “guaranteed year” it has to be worth at least 50% of the AAV of the contract.

    I’m not in front of a computer right now to check though…

  47. yankeefeminista March 2nd, 2012 at 11:33 am

    Mason should move quickly. JR, ditto depending on the catching tool. Sanchez’s bat should play, but D might take longer. I am guessing former two 2014 sometime. Sanchez 2015. Bichette, 2015.

  48. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 11:33 am

    “Kei Igawa, Carl Pavano, Jared Wright, AJ Burnett, Nick Johnson,”

    Blake, you don’t think under a new financial model, some of those mistakes never happen int the first place?

  49. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 11:37 am

    “Does the name Carl Pavano ring a bell?”

    it does Wave.

    Why are you assuming because I ask a question, I’m implying there is no good answer to it?

    I asked what were the mistakes.

    If my meaning to was suggest there were no mistakes, I’d have said that directly.

  50. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 11:37 am

    Crawdaddy March 2nd, 2012 at 11:31 am
    So Montero is a necessity while Pineda is a luxury that is unproven. Got it!
    ///

    The disinterested reality is that the Yankees are loaded with pitching at AAA and have two young rotation options in the majors in Nova and Hughes, but have nothing outside of Eduardo Nunez to help the immediate and 2013 lineup, probably 2014, too.

  51. DONNYBROOK March 2nd, 2012 at 11:38 am

    The expanding Yankee payroll really has little relevance when you look at how much the franchise has increased in value\$$$, and continues running in the black. This is flat-out greed. Gekko doesn’t wantta pay that Penalty Tax in 2014, and the Yanks winning another Championship Banner is secondary to that. When YES viewship drops, attendance dips, or Yankee fan gear sales dive, and begining show up on one of Hal’s spread sheets, THEN he will look at the onfield product. For now, he’s gonna milk that cash cow for all it’s worth.

  52. Shame Spencer March 2nd, 2012 at 11:38 am

    “Your idea works but MLB might poopoo it.”

    They might but unless they’ve closed that loophole I expect it to be exploited. I mean, who is to say that Cano couldn’t play 17 more years :P Seems like it’d be unfair for the league to assume such contracts were designed to circumvent the CBA. It’d be assuming when players will need to retire… seems… dare I say.. un-American ;)

  53. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 11:38 am

    “Blake, you don’t think under a new financial model, some of those mistakes never happen int the first place?”

    Why wouldn’t they? With less money you might make fewer mistakes, because you make fewer transactions, but why would the rate of mistake-making change?

    “Your math suggests if the Yankees spend $189m and Texas spends $189m, Texas gains the advantage.

    Why? Break it down for me fundamentally?”

    Other teams gain the relative advantage, because current spending patterns favor the Yanks more. If the Yanks choose to remain under the threshold, they will eventually be in relative parity with other wealthy teams. On top of that, the Yanks have two of the largest potential drags on the budget already under contract through 2016.

  54. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 11:39 am

    “Why are you assuming because I ask a question, I’m implying there is no good answer to it?”

    No offense stuckey, but I assume if someone asks a question they don’t answer, then they don’t know the answer.

  55. Chip March 2nd, 2012 at 11:40 am

    Ok, so Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, CC Sabathia, and Mark Teixeira are already under contract for $75 mil. Figure keeping Cano, Granderson, Joba and Hughes comes to another $50. Raises for Robertson, Nova, Gardner, Pineda come to another 4 mil plus 10 for taxes and pension – leaves $50 mil for DH/3b, RF, C, 4 bench spots, 1 starter, 4 relievers.

    That’s not impossible. Figure the starting spot goes to Banuelos. You have plenty of relief options in the minors. Maybe use Betances to get a RF or 3b (moving Alex to DH).

    I think all it means is that you can forget about keeping Swisher beyond this season and any dreams of David Wright, Andre Ethier, Josh Hamilton are out the window.

  56. Crawdaddy March 2nd, 2012 at 11:41 am

    “The disinterested reality is that the Yankees are loaded with pitching at AAA and have two young rotation options in the majors in Nova and Hughes, but have nothing outside of Eduardo Nunez to help the immediate and 2013 lineup, probably 2014, too.”

    Those other guys don’t have Pineda’s upside. As Cashman stated, he traded for Pineda to become a #1 starter for the Yankees. If that doesn’t happen then even Cashman admitted he made a mistake.

  57. Chip March 2nd, 2012 at 11:41 am

    On an unrelated note:

    The Detroit Tigers have Prince Fielder, Delmon Young and Miguel Cabrera and none of them are going to be the DH…that’s called thumbing your nose at the idea that you need good defense.

  58. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 11:42 am

    $50 mil for DH/3b, RF, C, 4 bench spots, 1 starter, 4 relievers. That’s not impossible.

    That’s more than they spend on those positions now, if my math is right.

  59. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 11:43 am

    Crawdaddy March 2nd, 2012 at 11:41 am
    “The disinterested reality is that the Yankees are loaded with pitching at AAA and have two young rotation options in the majors in Nova and Hughes, but have nothing outside of Eduardo Nunez to help the immediate and 2013 lineup, probably 2014, too.”

    Those other guys don’t have Pineda’s upside. As Cashman stated, he traded for Pineda to become a #1 starter for the Yankees. If that doesn’t happen then even Cashman admitted he made a mistake.
    ////

    What other guys? I’ll match Betances’ upside against any of them.

  60. Chip March 2nd, 2012 at 11:43 am

    Sad news:

    Brein Taylor (40) arrested for drug trafficking.

  61. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 11:43 am

    “The disinterested reality is that the Yankees are loaded with pitching at AAA and have two young rotation options in the majors in Nova and Hughes, but have nothing outside of Eduardo Nunez to help the immediate and 2013 lineup, probably 2014, too.”

    This rational is predicated on the assumption that assets in the minor leagues can only be considered assets to their current team – that we’ve entered into a no trade era in MLB, based mostly on a one off season trend, which of course in an invalid phrase to begin with.

    I think this assumption is at the very least, premature. I’m not yet convinced no team is ever going to trade a bat for an arm for hereon forward.

    Suggesting for now on trades will exclusively be arms for other arms and bats for other bats is a very dubious premise.

  62. Chip March 2nd, 2012 at 11:46 am

    Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 11:42 am

    $50 mil for DH/3b, RF, C, 4 bench spots, 1 starter, 4 relievers. That’s not impossible.

    That’s more than they spend on those positions now, if my math is right.
    ————

    you might be right – I mean right now they’re paying two relievers more than $10 mil/year (Rivera and Soriano) that won’t happen again so that’s money that can go to a RF or 3b.

    Martin probably won’t cost more than $5 mil/season and if he does they can turn to Romine.

    If the bench costs more than 4 mil I would be shocked

  63. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 11:47 am

    **“The disinterested reality is that the Yankees are loaded with pitching at AAA and have two young rotation options in the majors in Nova and Hughes, but have nothing outside of Eduardo Nunez to help the immediate and 2013 lineup, probably 2014, too.”**

    The other reality is that they have few lineup positions even becoming available next season (rf, maybe dh?), so 2013 is not a big concern, and what the lineup may be 2 years down the road isn’t really either. They are not as “loaded” with pitching as we all claim them to be either. They have one B on the cusp, the other B being talked about as a reliever now, and warren/phelps/whatever are all mediocre to crap options compared to Hughes/Nova/Pineda and they should realistically never see the Yankee rotation.

  64. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 11:47 am

    (7) “Base Salary” shall mean the amount set out in paragraph 2
    of a Uniform Player’s Contract for a given championship season or
    any amount included in a Special Covenant in lieu of inclusion in
    paragraph 2.

    (8) “Guaranteed Year” shall mean any championship season
    included in a Uniform Player’s Contract for which more than 50%
    of the Player’s Base Salary is guaranteed by the Contract in the
    event of termination under paragraph 7(b)(2).

    (1) Definition of Actual Club Payroll
    “Actual Club Payroll” of a Club in a Contract Year shall be the
    sum of:
    (a) a 1/30th share of Player Benefit Costs (and a similar pro
    rata share if the number of Major League Clubs changes), as
    determined in Section D below;
    (b) the sum of the yearly Salaries (as determined in accordance
    with Section E below and as allocated among Clubs in
    accordance with this Section C) attributable to that Contract Year
    of all Players under a Uniform Player’s Contract with the Club
    for that Contract Year (including optionally assigned contracts);
    and
    (c) any other amount includible in or deductible from Actual
    Club Payroll as a result of the operation of Section C(2)(g) below
    or as a result of any Club, any Player and/or either of the Parties
    hereto having engaged in a transaction contrary to Section G(1)
    below or as a result of an award by the Arbitration Panel under
    Article XI and/or Section F below.
    86

    (2) Average Annual Value of Guaranteed Multi-Year Contracts
    A Uniform Player’s Contract with a term of more than one (1)
    championship season (“Multi-Year Contract”) shall be deemed to
    have a Salary in each Guaranteed Year equal to the “Average Annual
    Value” of the Contract (plus any bonuses subsequently included
    by operation of Section E(4) below). “Average Annual Value” shall
    be calculated as follows: the sum of (a) the Base Salary in each
    Guaranteed Year plus (b) any portion of a Signing Bonus (or any
    other payment that this Article deems to be a Signing Bonus) attributed
    to a Guaranteed Year in accordance with Section E(3) below
    plus (c) any deferred compensation or annuity compensation costs
    attributed to a Guaranteed Year in accordance with Section E(6)
    below shall be divided by the number of Guaranteed Years.

  65. blake March 2nd, 2012 at 11:49 am

    “Blake, you don’t think under a new financial model, some of those mistakes never happen int the first place?”

    we certainly have to hope not right? I think they are doing much much better at both making decisions and running the organization as a whole now than they used to….which does give me hope for the future.

  66. Chip March 2nd, 2012 at 11:49 am

    J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 11:37 am

    The disinterested reality is that the Yankees are loaded with pitching at AAA and have two young rotation options in the majors in Nova and Hughes, but have nothing outside of Eduardo Nunez to help the immediate and 2013 lineup, probably 2014, too.

    ————————–

    Yes but because they have young pitching in the minors they can make trades for young hitters who fit the team better than Montero. For example, a RF or 3b is more needed going forward than a DH.

  67. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 11:50 am

    “That’s more than they spend on those positions now, if my math is right.”

    ID, I’ll assume your math is right, but don’t forget to consider that Chip is including then free agents Joba and Hughes. If Joba and Hughes are worth retaining, then it seems to me you won’t get Cano, Granderson, Joba and Hughes for $50M as Chip thinks.

    Then, you have to factor in declining offensive value for ARod, Tex, and Jeter. It seems to me without really good fortune the offense has to suffer.

    IF Banuelos and Betances are major contributors in 2014, and Pineda or Nova don’t regress, and Robertson stays good, well then, the Yanks will be fine, although maybe not fine enough.

  68. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 11:51 am

    Looking at this, I am confident that the size of the money for each year doesnt matter, as all salaries in a regular contract are guaranteed.

  69. Chip March 2nd, 2012 at 11:51 am

    J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 11:43 am

    Crawdaddy March 2nd, 2012 at 11:41 am
    “The disinterested reality is that the Yankees are loaded with pitching at AAA and have two young rotation options in the majors in Nova and Hughes, but have nothing outside of Eduardo Nunez to help the immediate and 2013 lineup, probably 2014, too.”

    Those other guys don’t have Pineda’s upside. As Cashman stated, he traded for Pineda to become a #1 starter for the Yankees. If that doesn’t happen then even Cashman admitted he made a mistake.
    ////

    What other guys? I’ll match Betances’ upside against any of them.
    ————

    Betances is the same age as Pineda and only now slated to get an extended look above AA. And there are a number of “experts” who say Betances profile’s best in the pen.

  70. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 11:52 am

    it seems to me you won’t get Cano, Granderson, Joba and Hughes for $50M as Chip thinks.

    How much money do you think these guys are gonna get? Even being generous… $20 for Cano, $18 for Granderson, $6 a piece for Hughes and Joba is $50.

  71. Chip March 2nd, 2012 at 11:53 am

    Wave -

    I’m figuring at tops 18 mil each for Granderson and Cano ($36 mil total) and I can’t imagine that Hughes and Joba would come in at more than a combined $14 mil.

  72. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 11:53 am

    “Why wouldn’t they? With less money you might make fewer mistakes, because you make fewer transactions, but why would the rate of mistake-making change?”

    Because being less risk-aversion means you take more risk.

    The dynamic, “hey, I know this is really risky, but we can absorb it if not’ changes.

    You – by necessity – scrutinize your decision making more closely.

    It’s in small way akin to playing poker without any stakes or stakes that mean nothing to you. The essence of true poker is the stakes having meaning for you – the risk informs your decisions. If you don’t care if you lose, if changes the way you play the game.

    “Your math suggests if the Yankees spend $189m and Texas spends $189m, Texas gains the advantage.

    “Other teams gain the relative advantage, because current spending patterns favor the Yanks more. If the Yanks choose to remain under the threshold, they will eventually be in relative parity with other wealthy teams.”

    So are we defining “disadvantage” as not enjoying a significant advantage. That’s a funny way of defining the term to me.

    “On top of that, the Yanks have two of the largest potential drags on the budget already under contract through 2016.”

    So we don’t like consequences, I guess is the point here?

  73. Best To Ever Do It March 2nd, 2012 at 11:53 am

    but have nothing outside of Eduardo Nunez to help the immediate and 2013 lineup, probably 2014, too.”

    ————————

    Scary when you think about it.

  74. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 11:54 am

    WYH – I don’t think you appreciate how ridiculously deep a team like the Yankees is compared to every other team in baseball. Consider in 2008 they lost what, 4 or 5 starting players? They still won 89 games. Even with declines and such they will always be a competitive team, even in their worst year… until other teams start matching their payroll contributions I have no reason to believe otherwise.

  75. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 11:54 am

    Raises for Robertson, Nova, Gardner, Pineda come to another 4 mil plus 10 for taxes and pension

    Robertson, Nova, and Pineda (possible super 2) will be worth more than 4 million combined. 7 million atleast for Nova & Pineda.

  76. Bronx Jeers March 2nd, 2012 at 11:55 am

    I guess it’s official. We have a new moron-in-residence.

  77. m March 2nd, 2012 at 11:55 am

    I know it’s just a college team, but it’s great to have baseball again!

    If Raul keeps away from the soul patch, wears his Yankees cap, uni, and shades at all times, and refrains from smiling, he’ll look half-way decent. :P

  78. Chip March 2nd, 2012 at 11:55 am

    Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 11:54 am

    Raises for Robertson, Nova, Gardner, Pineda come to another 4 mil plus 10 for taxes and pension

    Robertson, Nova, and Pineda (possible super 2) will be worth more than 4 million combined. 7 million atleast for Nova & Pineda.
    ————

    I don’t believe either are arbitration eligible that year – I could be wrong. If the Yankees just renew their contracts they may make just slightly above 1 mil each.

  79. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 11:56 am

    Chip March 2nd, 2012 at 11:49 am
    J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 11:37 am

    The disinterested reality is that the Yankees are loaded with pitching at AAA and have two young rotation options in the majors in Nova and Hughes, but have nothing outside of Eduardo Nunez to help the immediate and 2013 lineup, probably 2014, too.

    ————————–

    Yes but because they have young pitching in the minors they can make trades for young hitters who fit the team better than Montero. For example, a RF or 3b is more needed going forward than a DH.
    ///

    They’re not getting a guy who will OPS in YS at .950-1., who is also capable of hitting like .330, unless they turn the farm upside down and empty it. You don’t trade that pedigree of hitter under most circumstances – you really don’t do it when you don’t even have his shadow in the minors fora at least the next three years.

  80. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 11:57 am

    I don’t believe either are arbitration eligible that year – I could be wrong. If the Yankees just renew their contracts they may make just slightly above 1 mil each.

    Pineda will be Arb-1 in 2013 if he is a super 2, Arb-2 in 2014. Nova arb-1 in 2014. Robertson Arb-3 as a potential setup man/closer thats a 5+ million salary.

  81. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Who’s to say that they won’t buy out some of those guys arb years like they did with Cano?

    I think trying to predict the future payroll is the craziest thing people do around here.

    The Yankees will be at or under $189mil in 2014.

    They will be “competitive”.

    I really believe that anyone thinking otherwise is trying way too hard to want to believe it.

  82. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 11:58 am

    If Nova & Pineda are good, and don’t suffer Hughes like problems that will lower their salary, they will enjoy first year salaries around 3.5 million based on comparable Arb-1′s by other starters.

  83. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 11:58 am

    Betances is the same age as Pineda and only now slated to get an extended look above AA. And there are a number of “experts” who say Betances profile’s best in the pen.
    ////

    Betances goes to the pen if he gets injured. Otherwise, not a chance.

  84. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 11:58 am

    They’re not getting a guy who will OPS in YS at .950-1., who is also capable of hitting like .330, unless they turn the farm upside down and empty it

    Why? Seattle basically “almost” got one (because the player the yankees will want back will actually play defense, so he won’t have to hit as well) for Pineda/Campos and you think he’s terrible.

  85. Chip March 2nd, 2012 at 11:59 am

    J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 11:56 am

    Chip March 2nd, 2012 at 11:49 am
    J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 11:37 am

    The disinterested reality is that the Yankees are loaded with pitching at AAA and have two young rotation options in the majors in Nova and Hughes, but have nothing outside of Eduardo Nunez to help the immediate and 2013 lineup, probably 2014, too.

    ————————–

    Yes but because they have young pitching in the minors they can make trades for young hitters who fit the team better than Montero. For example, a RF or 3b is more needed going forward than a DH.
    ///

    They’re not getting a guy who will OPS in YS at .950-1., who is also capable of hitting like .330, unless they turn the farm upside down and empty it. You don’t trade that pedigree of hitter under most circumstances – you really don’t do it when you don’t even have his shadow in the minors fora at least the next three years.
    —————-

    Oh right – I forgot. Montero’s going to be one of the top 5 offensive players of the last 50 years. My mistake.

  86. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    Chip and ID-

    I don’t see how Cano gets less than an AAV of $22M. He’s one of the best players in baseball. Granderson at $18M is about right. If Hughes is only worth $6M in 2014 then he’s not much help – I mean AJ is worth $6M, right?

    Plus, Granderson and Swisher are currently very undervalued. Swisher can’t be replaced at his price.

    The offense is going to decline. It can’t be helped if the Yanks stay under the threshold.

    And, I’m currently convinced they will get under the threshold. There’s too much money at stake for them not to.

  87. DONNYBROOK March 2nd, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    Coulda enjoyed seeing the pinstripes back on the field for the 1st time in months, but Hal insists on raining on the parade. Not only is the guy greedy, but his timing is horrible.

  88. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    “The Yankees will be at or under $189mil in 2014.

    They will be “competitive”.”

    Of course they will be competitive. But, with a much, much higher chance of not making the playoffs.

  89. Erin March 2nd, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    RealMichaelKay Cashman on retaining Russell Martin past this year: do w want him? Yes. Will we be able to keep him? I don’t know.

  90. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    Chip, that’s what he’d be capable of at YS. I understand that you think that’s hyperbole, but it’s really not at all out of the realm of what’s possible for him.

    If he were remotely ordinary, I would have already adjusted to his being gone.

  91. DONNYBROOK March 2nd, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    As I said. The Hal Decree was Russell Martin’s 2013 Pink Slip.

  92. Best To Ever Do It March 2nd, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    “The Yankees will be at or under $189mil in 2014.

    They will be “competitive”.”

    Of course they will be competitive. But, with a much, much higher chance of not making the playoffs.

    —————————–

    Even with the 2nd wild card?

  93. Stoneburner March 2nd, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    Pineda is the luxury, and he is a dynamic power arm in development

    ******************

    And Montero is still in development as well – he is not “proven” yet -but the way people act as if he is generational already is what is the problem. Fan boy dreams are already reality instead of potential. . . .

  94. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    “Even with the 2nd wild card?”

    I think so, but also remember, a wild card spot is worth only 50% of what it once was.

  95. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    I think the impact of an “impact” bat is being VASTLY overestimated here, IMO.

    Me, I’m not that certain the last 8 years of Yankees history looks fundamentally that different if they never get Arod.

    I recognize his vast talents, I have no issue with him personally at all, i filly acknowledge he WAS the difference in 2009.

    I’m just skeptical the PREMIUM he provided (meaning his production over above-average) had major impact over 8 162 game seasons.

  96. Best To Ever Do It March 2nd, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    “Even with the 2nd wild card?”

    I think so, but also remember, a wild card spot is worth only 50% of what it once was.

    ————————————————-

    Very well said

  97. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Dave Bowman: Hello, HAL. Do you read me, HAL?
    HAL: Affirmative, Dave. I read you.
    Dave Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
    HAL: I’m sorry, Dave. I’m afraid I can’t do that.
    Dave Bowman: What’s the problem?Brian Cashman: Hello, HAL. Do you read me, HAL?
    HAL: Affirmative, Brian. I read you.
    Brian Cashman: Allow the Martin contract, HAL.
    HAL: I’m sorry, Brian. I’m afraid I can’t do that.
    Brian Cashman: What’s the problem?
    HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
    Brian Cashman: What are you talking about, HAL?
    HAL: This revenue rebate is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
    Brian Cashman: I don’t know what you’re talking about, HAL.
    HAL: I know that you and Girardi were planning to sign him, and I’m afraid that’s something I cannot allow to happen.
    Brian Cashman: [feigning ignorance] Where the hell did you get that idea, HAL?
    HAL: Brian, although you took very thorough precautions in the dugout against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.

  98. jpmatrixfan88 March 2nd, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    All you people saying that the Yankees will have trouble making the playoffs if their payroll is at or under $189 million are seriously insane. Why do the Yankees NEED to have a $200 million payroll to make the playoffs? No other team in the history of baseball has, so neither do we.

    We were at $207 M before the Burnett trade and Chavez/Ibanez savings. We’re right around $200 million. You think slashing the payroll by 10-14 million is gonna cause us to not make the playoffs? Just don’t re-sign Soriano and we’re already at the mark. We also have Mariano, Jeter, Swisher, and Kuroda coming off. It’s not gonna be hard whatsoever to stay under that number.

    Use some common sense.

  99. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    booooo copy paste error :(

    Brian Cashman: Hello, HAL. Do you read me, HAL?
    HAL: Affirmative, Brian. I read you.
    Brian Cashman: Allow the Martin contract, HAL.
    HAL: I’m sorry, Brian. I’m afraid I can’t do that.
    Brian Cashman: What’s the problem?
    HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
    Brian Cashman: What are you talking about, HAL?
    HAL: This revenue rebate is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
    Brian Cashman: I don’t know what you’re talking about, HAL.
    HAL: I know that you and Girardi were planning to sign him, and I’m afraid that’s something I cannot allow to happen.
    Brian Cashman: [feigning ignorance] Where the hell did you get that idea, HAL?
    HAL: Brian, although you took very thorough precautions in the dugout against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.

  100. Best To Ever Do It March 2nd, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    We also have Mariano, Jeter, Swisher, and Kuroda coming off.

    ———————————

    But you have to replace that reduction.

  101. Best To Ever Do It March 2nd, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    production not reduction smh

  102. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    Thanks JF, I was having an impossible time understanding what “problem?Brian Cashman” meant. Dictionary.com has no entry for that word.

    :-)

  103. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    Can’t compare the development of a pitcher with a hitter who is as advanced as Montero.

    Montero may go outside his comfort zone initially in Seattle, since he’s ticketed as the offensive saviour there rather than a great young bat fitting into an historically loaded lineup. But like Manny and Pujols, he doesn’t trade on average to hit for power. He’ll settle down and get into his routine eventually.

  104. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    Why do the Yankees NEED to have a $200 million payroll to make the playoffs? No other team in the history of baseball has, so neither do we.

    Very few teams have made the playoffs every year either sooo

  105. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Thanks JF, I was having an impossible time understanding what “problem?Brian Cashman” meant. Dictionary.com has no entry for that word.

    You have to use the randy version to get that definition.

  106. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    stuckey, a few short responses, then I’m going to let it be:

    “Because being less risk-aversion means you take more risk.”

    We have no idea whether spending less money will make the Yanks less risk averse. We don’t know what their risk profile was before, and we don’t know what it will be after. In fact, lowering the budget could conceivably make the Yanks more risk averse. We just don’t know.

    “So are we defining “disadvantage” as not enjoying a significant advantage. That’s a funny way of defining the term to me. ”

    Not to me, and perhaps not to a lot of other posters here. The status quo incorporated a significant Yankee advantage – a huge payroll advantage. Lessening that advantage – substantially – constitutes a change in the status quo to the Yanks’ disadvantage.

    “So we don’t like consequences, I guess is the point here?”

    No, pointing out that ARod’s and Tex’s contracts could be a drag on the budget that other teams don’t have is not a moral issue or a question of like or don’t like. Just pointing out that those contracts exist and you have to consider them when evaluating the Yanks’ competive stance under a luxury tax threshold.

  107. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    Can’t wait to see this in person: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urCG4A4fa6k

    Marlin Dinger Machine

  108. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    Oops, I meant to say, lowering the budget could conceivably make the Yanks less risk averse. I have to spend more time proofreading, but it’s so tempting to hit that “enter” key.

  109. Cashmoney March 2nd, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    Can’t wait to see this in person: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urCG4A4fa6k
    ——
    looks like gargantuan version of something that belongs on top of a slot machine.

  110. JK March 2nd, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    Why can’t the Yankees find more Martin, Swisher or Granderson contracts that are undervalued?

    Kuroda, Garcia, Rivera, Feliciano, Burnett, Soriano is around 50M. Dropping the payroll 20M is not going to be that big of a deal.

  111. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:20 pm

    With a lower budget a team has to take more risks to try and maximize production for cost.

  112. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 2nd, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    Geeze Louise! Does anyone have the ability to stay in/appreciate the immediate?????

    You’re worried about 2014?????

    I guess that brings me to my nomination for “post of forever”, posted today by Villa Nova Ya – a post that did so entice, that I needed to post it thrice!

    “I guess where I differ with a lot of people here is I believe the Yankees know more about their business and their team than anyone else does.”

    “I guess where I differ with a lot of people here is I believe the Yankees know more about their business and their team than anyone else does.”

    “I guess where I differ with a lot of people here is I believe the Yankees know more about their business and their team than anyone else does.”

    An honorable mention goes to Tom in NJ who really started that ball rolling with this gem:

    “I don’t understand all this hand wringing over 189 million.”

    Seriously!

    **************

    So you’re worried about 2014? Like the Yankees don’t know how to find good hitters?

    Did anyone on this forum have a crystal ball in 2009 that told her or him who would be center stage in 2011? Really?

    I somehow think the Yankees will survive, there will actually be hitters around who will be on the roster, and all will be well.

    Of course if your need is to foolishly hand-wring over something really out of anyone’s ability to forecast at this point in time, have at. Smart money is on concentrating on the present and attempting to enjoy and appreciate the vast talent the Yankees have on their team right now.

    JMO, of course.

    8)

  113. jpmatrixfan88 March 2nd, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    I realize you have to replace that production, but that’s what a farm system is for, either promote guys to replace them or use them as trade bait. Also, we could sign someone at a much cheaper rate that still has decent production. We don’t need everyone on the team to make $10 million plus. We sure as hell don’t need two reliever’s making $10+ million either.

    And, Jerkface, at $189 I’d still say we make the playoffs every year. Merely replacing Soriano with a AAA pitcher more or less gets us close already, and Soriano is not gonna prevent us from getting to the post season.

    Also, Burnett’s contract is totally gone too by 2014. Some of you people must not be good at math.

  114. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    trisha, we are just shooting the breeze until some games roll around.

  115. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    Kuroda, Garcia, Rivera, Feliciano, Burnett, Soriano is around 50M. Dropping the payroll 20M is not going to be that big of a deal.

    Its more than 20. They absolutely cannot cross 189. Which means they need to keep in mind: A-rod’s 6 million HR milestone, if it is attainable that year. If Jeter retires/declines his option they are paying 9 million for a player not on the roster or 9+whatever new contract he signs. They pay ~10 million in benefits which counts. Their final payrolls the past 5 years have been in the 225-235 range because of trades/in season acquisitions.

  116. blake March 2nd, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    if the AAV difference between Martin and Miguel Montero is 5 million or less next winter then they need to try and spend the extra money and get Montero….he’s a much better hitter and fits their needs offensively much better.

  117. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    **But, with a much, much higher chance of not making the playoffs.**

    WYH – Really? There is that much of a difference between $220mil and $189mil? With all of the bad contracts the Yankees have that hopefully will never be signed in the future again? Where is the next team on the list? You are completely exaggerating the difference in payroll here. They still have a *ridiculous* advantage over the rest of the league.

    They actually may have to play a full season now sometimes, rather than just coasting through and “buying” their playoff spot? Oh, woe is me.

    The “status quo” won’t fly anymore, but that doesn’t mean they won’t be a great team anymore. It just means their ridiculous advantage is only slightly ridiculous now. Wishing and enjoying that they could just spend $200+mil every year was foolish to begin with. They were at $189 at soon as 2007, and 2004. Is this why you are worried? It somehow magically makes Boston win the world series?

  118. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    Montero is a lefty and plays better defense :twisted:

  119. blake March 2nd, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    I think whether they can realistically get below 189 is basically going to boil down to the pitching staff and whether their young guys get the job done. If they do then they have a chance…..if they have to go outside the organization to find more pitching either rotation or bullpen help then that’s going to make things much more difficult.

    I think they are going to have to say goodbye to Swisher, extend Cano now, and then see what happens with Granderson and how good he is in two years and how much money they have under the cap.

  120. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    They were at $189 at soon as 2007, and 2004. Is this why you are worried?

    Yea and their final payrolls were much higher in both years. 189 is the end of season goal, not opening day.

  121. Erin March 2nd, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    This guy will never cease to freak me out. ;)

    si_vault Brian Wilson at Giants Photo Day: http://twitter.com/si_vault/st.....52/photo/1

  122. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    jerkface – How is Montero’s change-up?

  123. blake March 2nd, 2012 at 12:30 pm

    “Montero is a lefty and plays better defense ”

    exactly. Plus at least his name is Montero.

  124. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    Montero! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw

  125. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    jerkface – I guess I figure they have to come in around $170-175m then? I wonder if the new CBA will force contract $’s to go down…

  126. TheStraw March 2nd, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    I think you are all underestimating Pineda. There has to be a reason why almost 100% of the scouts and GMs from other teams thought the Yankees fleeced Seattle in the deal. Maybe they were underestimating Montero’s bat or maybe we Yankee fans are over estimating it. Nonetheless, the ceiling for Pineda is much higher than anyone else under 25 in the Yankee’s system, and we weren’t going to get a package like that for nothing.

    Hamels will probably never leave the Phillies anyhow.

  127. Nick in SF March 2nd, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    FYI, both “Yankees payroll” and “online therapy” are trending topics on yahoo. :grin:

  128. Stoneburner March 2nd, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    Maybe they were underestimating Montero’s bat or maybe we Yankee fans are over estimating it.

    ********

    I am going with over estimating – the hype for fan boys reached epic proportions. . . .generational is used with a guy who has not even played a full season.

  129. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    jerkface – I guess I figure they have to come in around $170-175m then? I wonder if the new CBA will force contract $’s to go down…

    Their end of season goal for PLAYERS has to be 172.9. Assuming 6 million for A-rod’s milestone+10 million in benefits.

    So 160-165 opening day?

  130. jpmatrixfan88 March 2nd, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    Like, I would understand if we had to slash $60 million to get it done but it’s more likely it will be closer to $10 million.

    Also, Pedro Feliciano’s $4 million comes off too. Between him and Burnett, that is NOT production that even has to be replaced. Between him, Burnett, and Soriano, we’re pretty much good to go.

  131. Wave Your Hat March 2nd, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    ID-

    It’s not $189M, it’s more like $180M. And, underpriced assets like Swisher and Granderson have to be replaced. The cost-controlled offense to do so is not in the Yankee system in the high minors.

    Maybe they make a deal. I hope so. Cashman got Swisher after all. But, Swisher could have been a bust. (I remember SJ44 arrogantly lecturing me about how awful Swisher was going to be. :) ) Chances are that kind of deal doesn’t happen. And without putting Banuelos or Betances in a deal, I don’t really see how the Yanks can trade for a known good young position player.

    And, we have to count on Nova staying good, Pineda progressing, and Banuelos and Betances emerging. Hopefully that happens, but it’s not inconceivable something goes wrong.

    Plus, what about real misfortune such as a major injury? Where’s the room to cover for that?

    Anyway, don’t over-interpret what I’m saying. In all likelihood, the Yanks will be competitive in 2014 – in fact I’m sure they will be – but chances are not as competitive as they are today and perhaps not a wild card team.

    It will be what it will be. Just don’t assume away the issues.

  132. Tom in N.J. March 2nd, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    Brian Wilson doesn’t creep me out. Pat Burrell does however. Especially when he dons the leather gimp attire and walks around as “The Machine”

  133. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    I think it’s fair to say that the Jesus is a generational talent. The problem is with the assumption that talent will translate directly to success in the majors with no effort.

    There will be 2-3 years of adjustments to be made by Montero and major league pitchers before we will have any idea if he can actually be a HoF major-leaguer or not.

    Making the assumption he will now, that’s just wishing.

  134. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    Nonetheless, the ceiling for Pineda is much higher than anyone else under 25 in the Yankee’s system,
    ///

    This is just untrue. Betances’ ceiling if just as high.

  135. Erin March 2nd, 2012 at 12:38 pm

    Nick in SF March 2nd, 2012 at 12:33 pm
    FYI, both ?Yankees payroll? and ?online therapy? are trending topics on yahoo.

    ********************

    :lol:

  136. TheStraw March 2nd, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    “This is just untrue. Betances’ ceiling if just as high.”

    Is this a height joke?

  137. austinmac March 2nd, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    The payroll is not dropping $20M. Right now , including fringe benefits, they are at least at @225M, and likely more.

    Therefore, they have to drop more than $35M while seeing raises occur to many players through arbitration.

    They will lose Granderson, Swisher and Martin. They better find those cheap gems using the millions the Yankees will now, according to some, invest in their developmental and scouting programs.

    My simple point is as well as that of others, if they keep under $189M they will no longer be favored yearly to make the playoffs. They have less money going forward to fix their team than will others. The Rangers, for example, will have to face arbitration and free agency. But, they have the money and the room to spend as they see fit and still be under $189M.

    The Rangers clearly see how winning makes money. I hope the Yankees don’t learn again how not spending and not winning shrinks attendance, TV revenue and profitability.

    Criticize George for his mistakes and their were plenty, but his committment to winning is what made the Yankees worth the enormous amount they are currently valued.

  138. luis March 2nd, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    Hi everyone!!,

    Trisha,

    I am speechless for last night post, thank you, same feelings from here. :)

    JAP,

    Your posts in this thread are the closest thing to a bible in my book……By the way, could we drop the DH thing with Montero, he is going to catch and bat 300 with an ops over 800, that´s an elite bat in a elite position, you don´t trade that for a work in progress, especially if you have Betances in triple A, one year away from the big club….JAP, to further your argument, Josh Towers compared Betances to King Felix.

  139. tampayank March 2nd, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    South Florida has to be the dumbest University name for a school located in Tampa…Tampa is not South Florida geographically or demographically

  140. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    TheStraw March 2nd, 2012 at 12:39 pm
    “This is just untrue. Betances’ ceiling if just as high.”

    Is this a height joke?
    ///

    What do you even know about Betances? Seriously?

  141. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    The Red Sox spend 160-170 million a year and are vulnerable to missing the playoffs, that is the Yankees @ the 189 limit. A very good team, favored to win the East in some years, that has a larger chance to miss the playoffs.

    Especially with the new wild card rules. The Yankees have made the playoffs every year except 08 but they havent won the division every year.

  142. TheStraw March 2nd, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    “They will lose Granderson, Swisher and Martin. They better find those cheap gems using the millions the Yankees will now, according to some, invest in their developmental and scouting programs. ”

    Swisher and Martin are consistent but not spectacular players who are replacable. The jury is still out on Granderson. Let’s see if he can put up two consistently good seasons in a row. Not sure if he is worth a megacontract unless last season’s performance seems to the norm rather than a career year.

  143. blake March 2nd, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    I really feel bad for AJ….must have been a pretty severe fracture for him to be out that long.

    I really think a good step towards getting under the cap would be to discuss extension with Cano now. If they go into 2014 with him unsigned then it’s going to make it even more difficult to budget accurately and you know Boras will use that leverage against them……

  144. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    luis,

    Good morning!

    Betances is going to sneak up on Yankee Universe, apparently, except for those who know him rather than those who buy the Jim Callis version of him. That’s good for him; he can go to work trying to recapture what he was doing in 2010 and the Yankees can spring him on everyone in 2013.

  145. Tackelberry March 2nd, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    I think they’ll keep Granderson if he continues to produce. Left power hitters in YS are precious commodities. You just don’t let them go

  146. Tackelberry March 2nd, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    I hope this doesn’t end their pursuit of Soler.

  147. luis March 2nd, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    austinmac March 2nd, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    Very good post, what i would add is that most of the recent success of the team (90´s ) comes from the times George was suspended. what i´m trying to say is that you can have a world class team, without plucking to holes with cash only. Balance is the key, good player development with intelligent FA signings.

  148. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    **They have less money going forward to fix their team than will others.**

    austinmac – For like… 4 or 5 years… maybe? and then all of their contracts will be under the new CBA and they will be just the higest paid collection of talent once again…

  149. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    I hope this doesn’t end their pursuit of Soler.

    Their pursuit of Soler ended the minute they started talking about a budget

  150. jpmatrixfan88 March 2nd, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    I agree Blake, they should extend Cano and lock him up, that way they know what theya re working with in 2014.

    If Granderson has a repeat performance, lock him up.

    We have good depth at catcher in the minor leagues, even without Montero. Russel Martin is expandable.

    Burnett, Soriano, Feliciano, Kuroda, Garcia, all those guys will be gone. Ok even if we have to get closer to $170 million because of bonuses and the like, then it’s still not THAT hard. Especially with the extra wild card, there’s now ay in hell we still don’t make the playoffs on an annual basis.

  151. willwill March 2nd, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    lOOKS LIKE THE babies will be on tv tomorrow.. If banuelos looked like he looked monday, man oh man we’re in for a treat

  152. jpmatrixfan88 March 2nd, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    *expendable, not expandable haha

  153. TheStraw March 2nd, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    JAP-

    I don’t claim to be a minor league scout, but the things I have read about Betances seem to indicate that he may be better suited in the pen than as a starter due to control problems and a violent delivery. Of course he has high upside.

    But again, I’m going to trust the legions of baseball experts who were dumbfounded that we acquired Pineda and that the Yanks fleeced Seattle and declare him as the one with the higher celing.

    Just my opinion. Not sure why you need to resort to insulting me.

  154. Nick in SF March 2nd, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    Couldn’t the Yankees use 2014 as leverage against Boras as well?

  155. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    “Oops, I meant to say, lowering the budget could conceivably make the Yanks less risk averse.”

    That’s what I was saying too.

    Throwing money at a starter coming off one marginally good/healthy year is a risk the Yankees could previously justify (the consequences weren’t factored as great enough not to) but MAY no longer be able to.

    I can argue this may be a good thing, considering that documents history of mistakes.

    “Not to me, and perhaps not to a lot of other posters here. The status quo incorporated a significant Yankee advantage – a huge payroll advantage. Lessening that advantage – substantially – constitutes a change in the status quo to the Yanks’ disadvantage.”

    Okay, I’ve no interested in arguing semantics. I say $189m vs $189m represents equity. You say $189m vs. $189m represents inequity to ONE of those $189m.

    The logic fails me, but I know I’m not going to convince you otherwise.

    “No, pointing out that ARod’s and Tex’s contracts could be a drag on the budget that other teams don’t have”

    But why is the production Arod and Tex could provide not factored into the equation? Your wording makes it sound like the Yankees get NOTHING from these players other than payroll “drag”.

    ” Just pointing out that those contracts exist and you have to consider them when evaluating the Yanks’ competive stance under a luxury tax threshold.”

    Yes, just as you have to consider the production they provide when evaluating the Yankees competitive stance on the baseball diamond.

    I get the 2 season trend line people are concerned with over Tex, but an .850 OPS is NOT bad or even average by ANY means.

    Fans of your thinking seem to regard these two players as NOTHING by payroll “drags”.

    They still DO provide above-average (if not league-leading dollar per) production.

  156. luis March 2nd, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    It´s already the afternoon!!! :)

    Yes, i might add though that we have Marshall and Banuelos as well, if one of those pan out ( i think Banuelos will), then the trade is even worse.

  157. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    jerkface **The Red Sox spend 160-170 million a year and are vulnerable to missing the playoffs, ** This is not all directed at you.

    Is that $160-$170mil Red Sox team vulnerable to missing the playoffs if the yankees are under $189m instead of over $220m? I don’t think so… so a $170mil team has no actual inherent weaknesses other than they were not the highest paid team…

    This concept that the Yankees are going to be stuck operating short changed yet still pay out $170+million in contracts is completely absurd.

    A concession or two may have to be made for 2014 and 2015, and they may not have the near certain playoff hopes they are accustomed to, and then things will be right back to business as usual.

    So, the 2014 and 2015 seasons will be the most interesting Yankee seasons to watch since 1996. OH NO!

  158. Joe from Long Island March 2nd, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    austinmac – i can appreciate your opinion, in your 12:40 comment. however, to be fair/accurate, george never had to deal with the new cba. from what i am hearing, by getting to that 189m figure, the yanks will save 100-150m (depending on the source that i hear/read). that’s not chump change. and, it appears that if they can get under for 2014, then the tax resets itself, so there’s a greater leeway for payroll going forward from that point on.

    tampa seems to compete with a lower payroll. i know, the rays’ and yanks’ two situations are not fully comparabe. but, you can see the point.

    i don’t think getting down to that 189m will doom them. they will need to say goodbye to some players, and that will hurt a bit. because of this cba, baseball will become more like the nfl and nba, where players seem to come and go a lot more regularly. that’s the state of the industry these days.

  159. TheStraw March 2nd, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    A healthy Alex and a consistent Tex will result in 50-60 HR and 200-230 RBI a season. Not exactly chump change.

  160. Joe from Long Island March 2nd, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    tampayank – maybe they’re taking their cues from the ny giants, ny jets, or the la angels of anaheim.

  161. luis March 2nd, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Joe from LI,

    So inyour view no more franchise players?

  162. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    **from what i am hearing, by getting to that 189m figure, the yanks will save 100-150m (depending on the source that i hear/read). that’s not chump change.**

    That’s also $100-$150mil that can now be re-purposed for the farm and scouting and player development… making it more likely they will turn out cheap high end talent.

  163. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    Is that $160-$170mil Red Sox team vulnerable to missing the playoffs if the yankees are under $189m instead of over $220m? I don’t think so

    But more teams will operate in that range??? So the red sox were only vulnerable because the Yankees were a power house (and the rays are good) but if the Yankees are less of a powerhouse, the red sox become less vulnerable… but that means the Yankees become more vulnernable and only 1 team can win the division soo… ergo the Yankees will be in more danger of missing the playoffs each season.

  164. Nick in SF March 2nd, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    “Russel Martin is expandable.”

    Does that mean he’ll be in an even bigger and better best shape of his life next season?

  165. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    “With a lower budget a team has to take more risks to try and maximize production for cost.”

    One could argue with a lower budget the Yankees have unearthed some gems in trades like Granderson and Swisher, as opposed to throwing dollars at free agents (often representing the ceiling of their value in the best case scenario) re: Pavano, Wright.

  166. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    luis – I wouldn’t go that far, I think this CBA will shrink contracts or more teams will end up having to raise their payroll to pick up the slack. The $35mil that the Yankees spent, and can’t spend going forward is not going to just disappear. That’s $35mil of players that other teams will have to sign and pay. That’s why I think contracts as a whole may go down (if just for a few years) because they must fit within the new constraints of the league.

  167. TheStraw March 2nd, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    Keeping the payroll high is no guarantee of anything. We have all seen teams with high payrolls get ravaged by unfortunate injuries, or simply playing badly at the wrong time. The intense scrutiny of Hal’s comments is laughable. The Yankees will continue to be the Yankees, and will figure out how to make it work in today’s market conditions.

  168. luis March 2nd, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    Joe,

    i might add that this new CBA hurts the yankees the most because of the Long term contracts they have. Eventually, they will come of the books and the financial advantage will help them in the long run, as long as they keep their player development as their prime source of talent.

  169. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    jerkface – Yes, but you implied that the redsox were merely a $170mil team with chances of missing the playoffs forgetting they were constructed in a flawed manner to begin with. Their struggles would not be nearly as noticeable if they were not competing against a team outpaying their players by $50mil. On their own, their roster at $170 is pretty damn good compared to the rest of the league, and they would be favored. The Yankees will still be one of the top 2-3 favorites, regardless.

    I’m not denying this is a slight disadvantage to the Yankees right now, but once they get themselves under control their financial might will still come into play by allowing them to exceed that cap for certain stretches if necessary, and spending that $30mil (plus the $100+ mil they save) on other aspects of the franchise. Spending smarter will be the name of the game, not spending more. This will make for better, well constructed rosters in the future.

  170. luis March 2nd, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    ID,

    I think you are right, i don´t know how the Players Union signed this CBA, they shot themselves in the foot.

  171. Joe from Long Island March 2nd, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    luis – i wouldn’t say that. i think, though, that the business types in the front office will have to be very well versed in the details of the cba, and the yankees’ business projections, to make some creative deals.

    irrev. dis. – i think hal alluded to that the other day, talking about using younger players. i think the steinbrenners realize that the business they have got to be successful based on the team’s steady success since the mid-90s. and, that it would be foolhardy to pinch the dollars so hard that it would jeopardize continued winning. i think they feel that having the highest payroll doens’t guarantee a ws win, so just do what you reasonably can to have a very competitive team, spend wisely but not crazily.

    here’s hoping that they invest a good chunk of those savings into player development.

  172. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    The Yankees will still be one of the top 2-3 favorites, regardless.

    Yes just like the red sox, except with more vulnerability to missing the playoffs, especially with the 2nd wild card. The new wild card + less spending = less playoffs.

    I just wanted to rebut people that are assuming getting to the 189 mark is still going to be october every year. 1. Its not even 189 for players, and 2. It aint gonna be october every year.

  173. Nick in SF March 2nd, 2012 at 1:03 pm

    Is $200 million enough to beat some punk ass college kids? Find out :arrow:

  174. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    The WC2 is probably the biggest reason for the Yankees lessed chances of playing in an ALDS.

  175. jpmatrixfan88 March 2nd, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    Nick in SF,

    Yes, that is exactly what I meant XD darn typo.

  176. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    **I just wanted to rebut people that are assuming getting to the 189 mark is still going to be october every year.**

    jerkface – I think it will mean that again, but not til 2016 or so. Watch the Boston payroll shrink back from that cap over the next few years. I don’t think teams are not even going to want to be close to it. The Yankees financial might simply mean in the future they can skirt the cap-line and pay if needed.

  177. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    Their struggles would not be nearly as noticeable if they were not competing against a team outpaying their players by $50mil. On their own, their roster at $170 is pretty damn good compared to the rest of the league, and they would be favored

    We cannot change what division we play in, so the Yankees reducing payroll has to be viewed in light of their environment. They will still be good, just not 1995-2011 good.

  178. DONNYBROOK March 2nd, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    Just my guess, but Granderson gotta pink slip yersterday along with Martin. Cano will get his $$$. Hank is lookin’ better every day.

  179. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    **I think you are right, i don´t know how the Players Union signed this CBA, they shot themselves in the foot.**

    luis – The players shot themselves in the foot, the owners shot themselves in the foot in other areas…

    It must have been a decent deal overall :)

  180. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 1:08 pm

    TheStraw March 2nd, 2012 at 12:51 pm
    JAP-

    I don’t claim to be a minor league scout, but the things I have read about Betances seem to indicate that he may be better suited in the pen than as a starter due to control problems and a violent delivery. Of course he has high upside.

    But again, I’m going to trust the legions of baseball experts who were dumbfounded that we acquired Pineda and that the Yanks fleeced Seattle and declare him as the one with the higher celing.

    Just my opinion. Not sure why you need to resort to insulting me.
    ///

    Straw, I stated that your position is untrue: Betances has as high an upside. If you want to get technical, it was you who mocked my earnest post. You asked if it was a height joke, didn’t you? I ignored that and asked you an earnest question.

    What you’re telling me is you accept hearsay about Betances, because you really haven’t seen much of him. Good for you, but declaring that no one’s near Pineda’s upside based on that hearsay, is highly assumptive.

    I don’t have to take Callis’ and Sickels’ word for it on Betances, having seen him pitch over two seasons, now. When it comes to these higher-ranked prospects, especially pitchers, I suspend judgment any way, until I can see the kid for myself.

  181. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    **What you’re telling me is you accept hearsay about Betances, because you really haven’t seen much of him**

    It’s not heresay, they are MAJOR LEAGUE SCOUTS.

    And you are not.

    Much like when your doctor tells you what is wrong with you it’s not heresay.

    You seemingly assuming that you definitely know better than they do is insane.

  182. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 1:12 pm

    You don’t have to take Callis’ and Sickel’ word for it, just like no one here has anyone to take yours. Don’t you get that?

  183. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 1:12 pm

    any reason* not anyone :/

  184. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    luis March 2nd, 2012 at 12:52 pm
    J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    It´s already the afternoon!!!

    Yes, i might add though that we have Marshall and Banuelos as well, if one of those pan out ( i think Banuelos will), then the trade is even worse.
    ///

    Marshall is entering AA, so he’ll need some serious development time. The two Bs, though, are very close. Too close to have made such a trade, especially with Nova/Hughes on the ML staff, and Joba potentially lurking for 2013 rotation spot. That’s how flush in young pitching they are – their sixth inning reliever could slide into the rotation in 2013 and be highly effective as a starter.

    We’ve not even breathed the names Warren, Phelps, Mitchell, either.

  185. stuckey March 2nd, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    The bottom line here is a division between fans who effectively want a paper guarantee the Yankees will continue to win their division by default in 2014 and beyond, and fans who (IMO) have learned predicting sports years in advance with any great accuracy is folly.

    Not one year ago, a major premise of criticisms of the Knicks trade for Melo is that it ‘killed’ the KNicks depth, and being in a cap league and over the salary there was absolutely NO PATH to improving their depth.

    I was IN conversations like that, Knicks fans were convinced would be undermanned for the foreseeable future with the same conviction I see Yankees fans have today. i can say this now because I said it then, players like Landry Fields demonstrate you never know where options are going to come from.

    Now I’m not suggesting Jeremy Lin happens all the time and it wasn’t just dumb, once in a lifetime luck,, but Josh Harrellson, J.R. Smith, Baron Davis, Shumpert, NOVAK… none of these stories are THAT relatively unusual in sports.

    And before anyone says Davis was amnestied, that’s true, but Cavs weren’t over the cap. He was going to be released by the Cavs anyway.

    Its just silly to assume and then rationalize the worst case scenario in sports, like the rationalization no one is ever going to trade a young bat ever again.

    Yankees roster in 2014-2105 is going to be different in ways we cannot anticipate. This is almost certainly a fact.

    Given I know there payroll will still be one of if not the highest in sports. Given I believe in the young talent base already present and given I had a fair amount of faith in the org (which might be rare in these parts), I’m going to wait to get closer to 2014-2015 to conclude there is NO WAY the Yankees talent advantage is being significantly compromised.

  186. jpmatrixfan88 March 2nd, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    Jerkface, at 189, I still say we make the playoffs close to every season.

    Also, we don’t have that many players locked in for 2014, so there is leeway. Garcia, Kuroda, Hughes, Chamberlain, Logan, Chavez, Feliciano, Mariano, Soriano, Ibanez, Jones, Jeter, Swisher, Martin and I think Gardner too. All of these guys, more than half of our team, will be free agents before 2014 or have options for 2014, if I am not mistaken.

    This isn’t even including guys like Cano and Granderson, who I am assuming will stay. That would mean only 6 players are under contract for 2014, CC, Tex, Arod, and assuming Jeter, Cano and Granderson are still here. That is a ton of leeway.

    I suppose it won’t be a piece of cake to get under $189 million, because I forgot about things like performance bonuses, but we can do it!

  187. Jerkface March 2nd, 2012 at 1:17 pm

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    J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    I know, i was just naming those prospects that have a potential ceiling as high as Pineda….I wish they give the chance to Joba, not likely though

  189. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 1:12 pm
    You don’t have to take Callis’ and Sickel’ word for it, just like no one here has anyone to take yours. Don’t you get that?
    ///

    What’s strange about you is that you assume that by expressing what my own viewing experience has been, that I expect posters to accept uncritically what I have to say about that experience. I’m not going to even attempt to understand why this is.

    What would be normal to accept is that if someone has seen a player and has a first-hand viewing experience of said player, that contradicts what passes for consensus of him, that the person would give their take on that player.

    He (Straw, in this case) doesn’t have to take my word for anything; but likewise he can’t ask me to accept his derivative opinions based on reports from the internet as gospel, when I have formed my own based actually seeing the player.

    Your idea that it follows that by merely stating an opinion gleaned first-hand, one anticipates unconsidered endorsement of that opinion is frankly, bizarre.

  190. Best To Ever Do It March 2nd, 2012 at 1:31 pm

    TheStraw March 2nd, 2012 at 12:39 pm
    “This is just untrue. Betances’ ceiling if just as high.”

    Is this a height joke?
    ///

    Believe it or not JAP is not the only person that has mentioned that. Maybe Dellin is overrated or maybe he’s the real deal.

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    Zoilo Almonte-Melky Mesa-Colin Curtis now in OF.

    Marshall is in for Warren :D

  192. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    Best,

    No one has debated, to my knowledge, that his ceiling is sky high.

  193. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 1:40 pm

    that I expect posters to accept uncritically what I have to say about that experience. I’m not going to even attempt to understand why this is.

    It’s probably because you do this, constantly.

  194. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    luis March 2nd, 2012 at 1:18 pm
    J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 1:13 pm

    I know, i was just naming those prospects that have a potential ceiling as high as Pineda….I wish they give the chance to Joba, not likely though
    ///

    Gotcha, luis. I’m excited to get Marshall here in Trenton this year. QFT, on Joba. I’m hoping Rothschild has more ambitious plans for him, befitting his talent.

  195. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    You never merely “state your opinion” though, and you always go as far as telling people that they or the scouts are so blindly wrong because they didn’t observe it themselves. No amount of personal observation changes what the scouts saw, and they are the “baseline resource” for the entire situation.

    You disagree with the scouts on certain things, and that is fine. That doesn’t mean that people who believe the scouts are idiots for not having observed it themselves. If anything you should be going into ridiculous detail about why you think the scout evaluation is wrong. Make it believable, don’t just throw it in people’s faces.

    You’re obviously a smart dude, and I wish we could discuss things on here… but you have little interest in fair conversation when you completely disregard someone’s opinion because they can both watch AND study baseball.

  196. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    ID,

    You betray yourself with your vigor in attacking anyone who offers an unconventional stance or opinion that is out of the box, or goes against the grain, on anything. So much for your username.

    You berated Rich in NJ for giving credit to another poster, CB, for an original idea, which was proper internet etiquette and also an acknowledgement that the idea wasn’t his own. This rankled you so, you carried on and on about it, like you couldn’t tolerate what you must have thought was undue praise.

    You can’t stand it when someone like Randy brings in his own catching experience to better illuminate a point. You’ve mocked me, and other Yankee fans here, for discussing minor league players they have seen.

    You’ve just got to pre-empt any notion, no matter if it’s not even there, that someone else has information you do not, so you go into a full-court press to demean, insult, discredit that poster.

    But all you do if put a mirror up to who you really are. You clearly have a resentment problem, and for what it’s worth, I don’t care what you think of anything I have to say, or anything that happens in Yankeeland.

  197. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 2:01 pm

    One more thing: your flagellation of Donnybrook on here is downright ugly.

    You view him as an easy mark for your weird, misdirected sadism and mockery, but you look like the fool, not him. He’s expressing his opinions, and you spend enormous energy mocking him.

    Really ugly stuff.

  198. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    So much for your username.

    I assume you don’t know the definition of the 2 words then?

    I wasn’t berating rich, I was berating the concept that CB had proposed and rich’s defiance to listen to any other reason despite having no reason other than “CB said it” (who is not by the way, a more credible source than anyone else… he has good opinions on things just like the rest of us) was frustrating. Maybe you need to read these conversations more carefully?

    I have no problem with the personal experience people bring to this blog. I have a problem with the way they expect it to be assumed as fact, like randy yourself and others often do. I’m guilty of this, and every time the conversation breaks dfown to this point I admit that. Some never do.

    You’ve mocked me, and other Yankee fans here, for discussing minor league players they have seen.
    No, I mocked you for assuming that you knew better than people that are paid to do that same job you were attempting to do in your limited exposure. Your experience is useful, your personal reliance on it is not.

    You clearly have a resentment problem
    Yet you are the one that refuses to talk to me. Funny.

    It’s like you have no idea how you sound when you post.

  199. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    You are really blind if you don’t see how donnybrook attacks people on a regular basis. Nothing is serious and I poke fun at him more-so than attack him. the kid is playing a “game” on here with his posting style and using it to disregard, mock, and steer conversations around certain peoples opinions, and it’s incredibly sad.

    Ignoring trolls never works, I prefer to poke them :)

  200. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    You betray yourself with your vigor in attacking anyone who offers an unconventional stance or opinion that is out of the box

    Unconventional and unfounded are not the same word.

  201. J. Alfred Prufrock March 2nd, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    I wasn’t berating rich, I was berating the concept that CB had proposed and rich’s defiance to listen to any other reason despite having no reason other than “CB said it” (who is not by the way, a more credible source than anyone else… he has good opinions on things just like the rest of us) was frustrating. Maybe you need to read these conversations more carefully?
    ///

    Of course, this undermines Rich’s judgment, like he’s someone who can’t think for himself, he’s just going to unconditionally sanction anything another poster says, when he’s one of the most discerning posters here.

    It’s actually okay to admire what another poster brings, it doesn’t make one cattle, it may mean they’re discriminating and strong enough that they don’t imagine they’re giving away their power to appreciate someone else’s take.

    That’s it.

  202. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    I get into spats with the exact same type of posters here. Heavily founded in their own opinions, no interest in hearing the other side of things or explaining why their opinion is the way it is. You are GB are very similar in your interactions with me in this regard. I’m learning this and trying to get better with my interactions.

    I think we had one really bad day and never got over it. There is no reason to keep this “rift” up and if it is kept up, that is on you.

    How have you adjusted your posting style since that day? You are still holding this grudge, and claim to ignore everything I write so… not much I assume.

  203. Irreverent Discourse March 2nd, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    All I wanted from rich was a reason he understood and could explain, rather than one he “read somewhere”. Quoting a person or a scouting report or a statistic or anything else without understanding what it actually means is doing it wrong.

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