Robertson sent for additional tests
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 08, 2012 
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Today’s MRI revealed enough to make the Yankees sent Dave Robertson back to the hospital for a second round of tests this afternoon.
“The initial test that he took gave us some cause for concern,” Joe Girardi said. “So we sent him back for a CAT scan and a weight-bearing x-ray. All of these tests will be sent up to Dr. Ahmad today. I’m not going to speculate on what he has. I know you would like to have more, but I don’t really have more. We’re not sure what’s going on. He had to have a couple more tests, we’re awaiting those results, and I imagine we’ll have an idea sometime tomorrow because I’m sure it will be one night to Dr. Ahmad and there’s a foot specialist up there that’s going to look at it.”
Girardi wouldn’t say what exactly the MRI revealed or speculate on what might be wrong. For now, Robertson is scheduled to stay in Tampa while the tests are studied in New York.
“I’m not so sure he’s going to miss enough time that we won’t have him on Opening Day,” Girardi said. “Until we get the test results, I’m not going to know.”
This is the way Robertson explained the incident to reporters who stayed behind and talked to him in Tampa…
“It was just one step. I was carrying an empty box. It’s not like I was carrying 70 pounds. I was just taking it to the recycling bin. … I just misjudged one step and just kind of caught it funny and it kind of rolled under me.”
trisha,
Worked for me.
repost:
Rich – well I’m happy with anecdotes. And since I truly buy it from the experts, I personally have no need to go and pull out stats. I don’t have the energy either after taking these pills!
I have a great enough memory of the Yankee ’90s-2000 dynasty to remember what took the day.
Add to it the word of the baseball world, well I’m good to go.
Isn’t it interesting that the Yankees demise began as soon as the Boss decided to add more offense to the lineup, starting with Giambi.
AND TORRE GETTING JEFF NELSON FIRED WAS THE FINAL BLOW. The Yankees pitching was never the same. Then Torre tried to make Brujo a strarter, something he did not want at all but something that Torre forced. And in short order, Brujo hurt his elbow and was never the same.
There should be a class action suit against Torre!
“Sounds like a keeper to me…..probably not close enough to the big leagues to get the value you’d want back.”
Sure, I’d like to keep him, but the Yankees have gotten used to awesome production at SS/3B and that’s not likely to last too much longer. If a young impact bat can be acquired that can play either one of those positions (SS is harder to fill, obviously), I’d trade almost anything.
trisha
That’s fine, but it’s just that, an anecdote.
The Yankees had a dynasty in large part because they had Jeter, Bernie, and Posada out hitting their up the middle competition.
Say hello to your new Seventh Inning Guy, Phil Phrancise Hughes.
“Say hello to your new Seventh Inning Guy, Phil Phrancise Hughes.”
Either that, or randy showed tremendous prescience about Pineda.
Rich – http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....-playoffs/
Pitching.
If I hear the word Lisfranc I’m punching a nun.
Pitching, not striking out and stealing bases, defense, and more pitching.
That’s what has actually won in the playoffs.
LGY –
rich – good pitching shuts down good hitting. End of story.
All the Yankees need is one run more than the competition to win games.
If we have superb pitching, they’ll likely get more than the one run with the lineup the Yanks have.
I’m familiar with that ID, but you have to get there.
Tom,
Sorry i didn´t answered before, had to do some stuff at work. If you are right then we will share some Pina Coladas under the palm trees!! I hope.
later guys,
And the SF Giants won because of their stellar:
yes that’s right, pitching.
And in 2004 when the Sux won the WS, they were the only team in the majors who had a rotation that had not once gone down during the season.
pitching, pitching, pitching
–
Well if you want to go this route, the Cardinals were the 2nd best offense in the league last year and had below average pitching (99 ERA+) and won the World Series. The only below average offensive team in the playoffs was the phillies. 5 of the top 6 offenses made it into the playoffs. The best offense in the playoffs won the world series.
San Fran won the world series, but they have been a good pitching team for the past 5 years. #2 last year, no playoffs. #1 09 no playoffs.
“rich – good pitching shuts down good hitting. End of story.”
It’s not true, but whatever.
What prescience did Randy show? That he had a thing for Montero and used Pineda as a punching bag in the process? Please.
“If I hear the word Lisfranc I’m punching a nun.”
Hey, how about making it a Sux fan instead! You’re messing with the periphery of the higher order with a nun. Everyone knows Sux fans are heathens!
I prefer a foot over an ankle. Yanks are always overly pessimistic and cautious where injuries are concerned.
This is not good news at all……
If baseball were really just a competition of pitching
The team that has the best pitching could be handed the world series trophy without even playing the games
Just give the trophy to the team with the lowest era + or whatever stat measures the best pitching
The fact is it’s the plus differential of runs/ rinds given up that makes a great team
And then luck in the small sample playoffs
I wouldn’t necessarily prefer a foot over an ankle.
jerkface, I already said there were aberrant years.
***********
“It’s not true, but whatever.”
Sorry, rich, I never play the lohud v the experts and end up on the side of lohud. I especially don’t do it when it’s one person, or a few, crying out in the wilderness.
So yes, whatever.
rich in NJ – Balance gets you there, you’ll never hear me argue any differently… but winning short series without pitching is nearly impossible.
Runs/ prevent runs
One run makes the difference in a game. Not 500.
Has it been ruled out that Randy Levine pushed him down the stairs in an effort to justify the Soriano signing?
“Sorry, rich, I never play the lohud v the experts and end up on the side of lohud.”
This is circular reasoning.
LGY – BAHAHAHAHA
Sorry, the lack of containment of my laughter had to be written down.
Once you get there jerkface, you need your pitching to carry you. Also good umpiring doesn’t hurt.
I wouldn’t necessarily prefer a foot over an ankle.
—–
there are other parts of human anatomy I favor than either.
ID
No one said that you don’t need any pitching. And having had an outlier like Mo has been very important, but that study also highlights defense, and the Yankees have often been average at best in that area, even when they were in the midst of a run.
LGY March 8th, 2012 at 4:39 pm
Has it been ruled out that Randy Levine pushed him down the stairs in an effort to justify the Soriano signing?
*******************
Trisha on pain killers is a hoot
LGY placed a banana peel on DRob’s steps to try and win his bet with Pat M
luis,
I trust the Dutch to keep the faith more than Americans. Like to meet you anywhere.
“This is circular reasoning.”
No, it’s intelligent reasoning. I know there are some lohud posters who feel they have more knowledge and expertise than the baseball players and organizations themselves. I find that always good for a chuckle.
But have at. Think what you want to. Then you can continue to go to bed convinced that Montero should never have been traded…
jerkface, I already said there were aberrant years.
–
The years you cited were the aberrant years. It takes much more than pitching to win any series. You need your pitchers to pitch well in the playoffs, but any pitcher can pitch well.
Poor randy. Resorts to silliness when his theories have been shot down.
Oh well.
“No, it’s intelligent reasoning.”
You’re saying that because a so called expert says A that A is true even without factual support for A. That’s the essence of circular.
“I am scared to death of chiropractors because the thought of having someone twist my head to the extent that you can hear a crack just doesn’t do it for me.”
Too bad
I’m sure there’s a few on lohud would do it for free.
“You need your pitchers to pitch well in the playoffs, but any pitcher can pitch well.”
Hmmm. Let’s tell that to all the pitchers who have gotten lit up in the playoffs. I’m sure they’ll agree.
And in the battle of the pitchers, the pitcher who pitches the best (i.e., allows the least hits/runs) comes out victorious.
Pitching wins championships.
You don’t need a loaded offense if you have a loaded rotation.
Common sense.
but winning short series without pitching is nearly impossible.
–
Winning a short series without hitting is nearly impossible.
“Too bad
I’m sure there’s a few on lohud would do it for free. ”
Other than you randy? I think you should learn to speak for yourself. If others want to chime in on your childishness, they are free to.
Hmmm. Let’s tell that to all the pitchers who have gotten lit up in the playoffs. I’m sure they’ll agree.
And in the battle of the pitchers, the pitcher who pitches the best (i.e., allows the least hits/runs) comes out victorious.
Pitching wins championships.
You don’t need a loaded offense if you have a loaded rotation.
Common sense.
–
Tell that to all the good pitchers that got lit up in the playoffs, and all the mediocre ones that became heroes. The battle of two offenses, whoever scores the most wins. Hitting wins champions.
Common sense.
The pitching heavy teams lose more often than not.
Jonathan Papelbon compares fans
Jonathan Papelbon compares fans”It’s a religion (in Boston). It’s a way of life,” Papelbon said on 94WIP’s “Angelo Cataldi and The Morning Team.” “(Fans) come to the field and they expect certain things out of players. … It’s an environment where you put up or shut up. I enjoyed that. That’s what got my motor running every day. … I’ve had a guy take off his prosthetic leg and throw it in the bullpen in Boston and want me to sign it.”
—-
the leg bit is kind of funny.
Say hello to your new Seventh Inning Guy, Phil Phrancise Hughes.
__
My guess is it would be Warren, Mitchell or Phelps before they move Hughes back to the pen. They have learned their lessons with Joba.
Yanks haven’t pitched or hit worth a damned since their motivational speaker paid a visit. Big deal. so he broke for bats. Rivera does that 3 times a game and only uses his right arm.
Just don’t rush him back. Be smart about it. Soriano can step up and be the man for awhile.
Also, hopefully if the Starting Rotation is as solid as I think it will be then the need for a lockdown BP is lessened.
Trisha
Stuckey of all people asked a really smart question
To me a month or so ago
How do you explain two totally different opinions
Coming from two baseball lifers say like jeter and Ripken for example
They will sometime have different viewpoints
How do you decide which one to go with because they are both experts?
“You’re saying that because a so called expert says A that A is true even without factual support for A.”
That’s called knowing how to make the best use of precious time. I have no reason to believe that the experts in the game – the managers and players themselves through the years – would make something up without factual support.
I saw it with my own team. That’s fact, that’s not anecdotal. The combination leaves me feeling safe in that belief.
“. … I’ve had a guy take off his prosthetic leg and throw it in the bullpen in Boston and want me to sign it.””
That sounds sort of typical of RS who posted at NYYFans…
The best offense in the playoffs won the world series.
==================================
Timely hitting won in the playoffs.
Just as it did for the 60 Pirates.
The Yanks outhit,outslugged them but lost.
When there is no pitching, yes hitting will determine a winner, just make sure it’s timely.
Pitching wins championships is like the same kind of platitude as ‘Defense Wins Championships’ in football.
trisha
This isn’t a science. It’s a child’s game played by men who often rely on common wisdom that is based more of myth than reality.
If that’s the level of analysis you like, fine, but it’s silly to discuss because it doesn’t lend itself to an interesting debate.
‘Check out the ’90s Braves (Maddox, Glavine, Smoltz): 1 ring
Check out the late ’80s A’s (Stewart, Moore, Welch, others): 1 ring’
Well, these are two slightly different animals with one being in the Wild Card Era and one preceding it.
But in both cases the teams involved were very good for some number of years. Those A’s went to the World Series three years in a row and they had good offenses too. They also had the kindly Walter Haas as an owner and were very kind to their local competitors the Giants, kindness not now being reciprocated. But I digress.
Those Braves won the single ring but made it to the WS a couple other times and made the postseason a gazillion years in a row.
Good pitching is good to have, it helps you win a lot of games and get into those tricky SSS elimination series in October. Good pitching alone is not enough, of course. You can have great pitchers pitching greatly but you still need someone like Cody Ross going nuts against Phillies’ aces, etc. if you want to beat the other team’s good pitching.
But I don’t think pointing to the World Series winner in any particular year proves or invalidates any specific pitching vs. hitting argument.
YankeesPR word is, this is an instant classic! RT @YankeesonDemand Time for some fun. @fran_cervelli as a news anchor! http://pic.twitter.com/ECtteR6a
“They will sometime have different viewpoints.
How do you decide which one to go with because they are both experts?”
Find me the experts that say hitting wins championships as opposed to pitching wins championships, and it’s a starting point.
Google “pitching wins championships” and see what you get.
Google “hitting wins championships” and see what you get.
ac1 March 8th, 2012 at 4:50 pm
Say hello to your new Seventh Inning Guy, Phil Phrancise Hughes.
__
My guess is it would be Warren, Mitchell or Phelps before they move Hughes back to the pen.
—–
If they didn’t have Garcia sure but the fact that Freddy is an option for the 5th spot gives them the choice of putting Hughes in the pen.
“When there is no pitching, yes hitting will determine a winner, just make sure it’s timely.”
Timeliness is just as essential for pitching.
Dominant pitching is the key to winning in a short series.
That’s called knowing how to make the best use of precious time. I have no reason to believe that the experts in the game – the managers and players themselves through the years – would make something up without factual support.
–
These are the same people that believe corking a bat helps.
Defense Wins Championships’
——————-
I’ve never seen someone win a 0-0 game – Joe Morgan
You guys are really over rating the impact of good pitching.
Good hitting is so irrelevant, and hitters so interchangeable, who even really needs good pitching to get a good hitter out?
Invest in neither pitching, nor hitting. Pitching of any kind will do, since a guy like Montero can’t hope to impact a game any more than an Ibanez, since he’s not a pitcher.
In fact, save you money, take your baseball, and go home and watch the NFL.
Scoring more runs than the other team is the best way to win.
“But I don’t think pointing to the World Series winner in any particular year proves or invalidates any specific pitching vs. hitting argument.”
Here’s what that was in response to:
“Check out the 80 Yankees…great hitting, mediocre pitching.”
So maybe you’re right, but the context of a discussion cannot be ignored, and one statement shouldn’t be viewed in isolation.
trish, many chiros do the same things as a PT, electro stim, ice, heat…do what is covered better by ins….if the pain is unbearable a PT can give you a cortisone shot, if you haven’t had one recently.
you can tell a chiro to be gentle or not to manipulate your neck
Randy, I genuinely appreciate the backhanded compliment, but I never asked you that.
“Other than you randy? I think you should learn to speak for yourself. If others want to chime in on your childishness, they are free to.”
You have to admit me on here on pain killers would be kind of funny if the situation were reversed
I would hate for you to really say something stupid while you aren’t all there
Just trying to help you out
Papelbon’s Francona impersonation was kinda funny ……I still hate him.
LGY placed a banana peel on DRob’s steps to try and win his bet with Pat M
——
I play to win
Fire up the centrifuges.
Best To Ever Do It March 8th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Defense Wins Championships’
——————-
I’ve never seen someone win a 0-0 game – Joe Morgan
///
Speaking of Morgan, whose one good trait is he never tires of rhapsodizing about Cano – let’s save $$$ on Cano and use that money more wisely. Let’s sign a dominant pitcher, instead. I hear you can never have enough of those, and that a great hitter can’t really help you win you anything, any way.
You know, the what’s more important pitching or hitting or balance argument is always good for a few rounds, but I continue to have another offshoot question about topic…
What’s balance?
Quantify it for me.
We hear the argument EVERY day that the Yankees ARE going to be imbalanced.
First quality what is the Yankees won’t have.
THEN prove to me they won’t have it…
That’s a new record for you, isn’t it, Pruf? Almost two hours without the need to mention Montero.
Timeliness is just as essential for pitching.
==========================
It helps that the batter doesn’t know what a pitcher will throw and where he will throw it + he can just plain overpower or finesse the hitter. He has the element of surprise on his side in addition to a skill set that favors the pitcher over the hitter.
If anyone here is contesting that the years the Yankees had that untouchable rotation, with Brujo, Stanton, Nelson and Mo backing it up, wasn’t the main reason for the Yankee success, then I have nothing further to discuss with you. Scotty Brosius, who won a few big games for the Yankees, was not known for his hitting. He came over from the A’s with a 203 BA. It was the pitching that sustained the Yanks.
Again, to win any game, all you need is one run more than the competition. If you have pitching shutting down the other side, one run shouldn’t be too tall an order. The team with the best rotation is in the best position to carry it home.
“How do you explain two totally different opinions
Coming from two baseball lifers say like jeter and Ripken for example
They will sometime have different viewpoints
How do you decide which one to go with because they are both experts?”
randy, you seriously crack me up. Your whole shtick for the past two months had been predicated on “listen to me, I am an expert, I can tell you what will happen based on fifteen seconds of youtube viewing”.
When I asked you why your particular expert opinion should carry more weight than all the expert opionions of the professionals who loved the Montero/Pineda trade for the Yanks, your answer was “I’m not going to apologize for getting off my couch, harumph harumph!!!”
Through the looking glass…
A little OT, but Morgan has nothing on McCarver:
“Giambi walks too much. He’s always clogging up the bases with all that walking.”
“you can tell a chiro to be gentle or not to manipulate your neck”
Didn’t know that. In that case I would consider it. The thought of that neck cracking always gives me the creeps.
“It helps that the batter doesn’t know what a pitcher will throw and where he will throw it + he can just plain overpower or finesse the hitter”
Yet great and near great pitchers have often failed in big spots.
Oh, Oh!!! Bryce Harper is becoming injury prone. Tightness in his calf.
“Fire up the centrifuges.”
I thought the Iranians had already done that.
Winning a short series without hitting is nearly impossible.
Jerkface – Cody Ross and the 2010 Phillies would like to have a word with you.
JAP.
Your zen is getting unbalanced. Try to talk about what we have, please?
Hard to believe that Richie Allen is 70 years old today.
Papelbon spent an off-season working in a brewery. My hatred for him dwindled a little bit after reading that.
“Hard to believe that Richie Allen is 70 years old today.”
http://oldballgame.freeservers.com/joeweb51.html
“I play to win”
It may backfire when Freddy is made the SIG
ac1 March 8th, 2012 at 4:50 pm
Say hello to your new Seventh Inning Guy, Phil Phrancise Hughes.
__
My guess is it would be Warren, Mitchell or Phelps before they move Hughes back to the pen. They have learned their lessons with Joba.
///
I think you may be giving them too much credit. The Hughes thing was the first I thought of, too. My thought was “Oh, no…”
hardwired7 – The first interview Papelbon gave after being traded he said he hoped he found a clubhouse “he would actually fit in”… that made he hate him slightly less…
ever so slightly…
These are the same people that believe corking a bat helps.
———————–
And that it’s possible to throw a rising fastball.
J. Alfred Prufrock March 8th, 2012 at 5:00 pm
Best To Ever Do It March 8th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Defense Wins Championships’
——————-
I’ve never seen someone win a 0-0 game – Joe Morgan
///
Speaking of Morgan, whose one good trait is he never tires of rhapsodizing about Cano – let’s save $$$ on Cano and use that money more wisely. Let’s sign a dominant pitcher, instead. I hear you can never have enough of those, and that a great hitter can’t really help you win you anything, any way.
————————-
Can you imagine if they did let him walk. SMH ppl think the Montero talk is crazy lol
why can’t a submariner throw a rising fastball
it comes from the bottom up.
corking a bat does “help” just not in the way people think it does.
rising fastballs are still un-possible.
mick – the concept of a rising fastball is a fastball that starts on a certain plane, then moves upward in trajectory. a submariner would not acheieve this effect either. you still need to throw the ball 200mph for the laces to create enough lift to make the effect possible.
GreenBeret7 March 8th, 2012 at 5:00 pm
That’s a new record for you, isn’t it, Pruf? Almost two hours without the need to mention Montero.
///
MONTEROMONTEROMONTEROMONTEROMONTEROMONTEROMONTERO.
There, that should take care of that.
“Dominant pitching is the key to winning in a short series.”
Unequivocally no question.
Does anyone remember the playoff series the Cleveland and the Sux had – it was when Pedro was still pitching for the Sux – where the scores were like football scores? That series was a bloody joke. That’s the same year that we beat the Sux in the ALCS and Nosemar made a trillion errors.
I swear I can almost see the games right now. I remember Brujo coming in for middle relief and the commentators (national, don’t remember who) saying “It’s all over now.”
I thrilled to watching our dominant rotation and bullpen. It was lights out all the way. Yes a well-placed hit may have helped, but it wasn’t a barrage of hitting that lit the way. It was dominant pitching. Pitching, pitching, pitching. Whether the Yankees won by 10 runs or one run, one was always enough.
Can you imagine if they did let him walk. SMH ppl think the Montero talk is crazy lol
///
Not only can I now imagine it, I can hear Cashman explaining it: “I have a dream.”
“Randy, I genuinely appreciate the backhanded compliment, but I never asked you that.”
stuckey, I posted my 5:02 comment before I saw this. I am persona non randy right now, so it’s especially amusing that he (probably unintentionally) credited my line of reasoning to you.
Why would they let Cano walk? They don’t need to have a super stud DH because of the fact that they have a super stud 2B… which is usually a pretty light hitting position. Letting them both go would make any sense?
tomingeorgia March 8th, 2012 at 5:04 pm
JAP.
Your zen is getting unbalanced. Try to talk about what we have, please?
///
Haha. If Zoilo makes the roster in 2013, I’ll brag a little, ok?
Many on this forum will tell you a “win” or “loss” is not the best indicator of how a pitcher performed.
Many on this forum will tell you RBI totals will not tell you how well a hitter performed.
Yes most seem in agreement that because the Yankees lost a 5 game series 3-2 by 1 run and happened to score 2 runs in the DECISIVE game, that the Yankees offense performed poorly.
I have a hard time reconciling those positions all together.
You need to begin delving to the murky waters of the Yankees didn’t hit or score to the scoreboard the way pitchers are reputed to do.
Or that the 10 and 9 runs they scored in 2 games are like “many of Arod’s HR’s and RBIs that were tact on and didn’t come in clutch situations” – that inane criticism that followed him around for years.
They lost the series, true.
They hit as well (and better) than anyone in the Division around, including their opponent.
They won’t let Cano walk. The issue is how much and to what age in his decline phase.
Jerkface – Cody Ross and the 2010 Phillies would like to have a word with you.
–
Cliff Lee, Cole Hamels, Roy Oswalt, and Doc Halladay, on behalf of the 2011 Phillies, would like to have a word with you.
The reason pitching is underrated is because of the lack of it in the game today.
The playing field has been leveled so it has become more of a mano a mano of the hitters.
This is why it’s a crapshot come October as no team dominates pitching-wise.
Hence, the need to go in the other direction and gain an advantage.
They all can hit, it’s just who gets hot.
corking a bat does “help” just not in the way people think it does.
–
Its illusory, which is the point. You can get the same effect by simply swinging a lighter bat.
The reason pitching is underrated is because of the lack of it in the game today.
–
lmao, the game has never been more pitching rich.
As rambling Joe Morgan said above… “You can’t win a game 0-0″ but, you know what? you can’t lose it either.
The offense has to “win” you a game.
The pitcher has to “not lose” that same game.
Outside of the first run scored, how much the offense needs to score “to win” is predicated by the performance of the pitcher… so I say that the pitcher controls the larger aspect of the win.
lmao, the game has never been more pitching rich.
=================================
that’s because you weren’t around back in the day
Rich in NJ March 8th, 2012 at 5:03 pm
“It helps that the batter doesn’t know what a pitcher will throw and where he will throw it + he can just plain overpower or finesse the hitter”
Yet great and near great pitchers have often failed in big spots.
///
I wonder if it burns Mussina at all that most don’t remember how the great Roger Clemens blew up in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS, and that Mussina’s cleanup job rescued the day.
jerkface – The unimpressive 2011 Phillies offense is currently on the phone with those pitchers.
I’ll call later.
Sorry doc
Does anyone remember the first year the unbalanced schedule was introduced?
The unimpressive 2011 Phillies offense is currently on the phone with those pitchers.
–
Which is my point?
Starting pitching is lacking. Relief is another story today. It is more emphasized than it was in the past . Today it’s 6 inning for a quality start and soon enough 5 will be acceptable.
that’s because you weren’t around back in the day
–
Ok let me append in recent history, as it was certainly easier to pitch when the mound was raised and before the DH, etc.
The number of sub 4 ERA pitchers has doubled.
Starting pitching is lacking
–
There are twice as many starters hurling a sub 4 ERA than in 2005.
J. Alfred Prufrock March 8th, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Can you imagine if they did let him walk. SMH ppl think the Montero talk is crazy lol
///
Not only can I now imagine it, I can hear Cashman explaining it: “I have a dream.”
————————————————–
lol and it’s a process
JAP
That meltdown may have helped Clemens decide to dabble in better living through chemistry.
Half as many .900 OPS bats…
Wins and losses is how they determine championships Want to do it with stats?
The number of sub 4 ERA pitchers has doubled.
===============================
Their average outing is 5-6 innings.
Wonder what it would be if they averaged 7-8 innings per?
Remember the days where the complete game was commonplace?
“I wonder if it burns Mussina at all that most don’t remember how the great Roger Clemens blew up in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS, and that Mussina’s cleanup job rescued the day.”
Hmmmm, I remember that well. Just a guess, but that doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that would burn him too much if at all. Most people who only superficially remember that game are just going to think Aaron Boone and not really think of Clemens OR Moose or even Mo’s heroic multi-inning performance either.
I’m guessing Carl Everett would burn Moose more and not winning the WS at all too if anything at all burns him while he rides around in his tractor.
jerkface – I know it is, I said I would call them later
Anything can win or lose you an arbitrary set of games, they don’t make great points.
There are two good ideas to take away from this larger conversation going on here, I think…
On a larger scale, such as a 162 game season… offense is probably more important than pitching because run differential is the most telling stat of who is a good team and who isn’t over the course of a long season. Offense is more important because you need to be able to score more runs than your pitching gives up. Any pitcher can throw a no-hitter, but not every hitter can hit HR’s.
On a smaller scale, such as a single game… I think that pitching is infinitely more important towards winning one game. Simply because outside of the first run scored, any further offensive production is unnecessary unless the pitchers give up more runs.
Playoff series are way closer the the smaller scale of one game than the larger scale of 1 season, so I think the statement that “pitching is more important for winning in the playoffs than hitting” holds true.
“Remember the days where the complete game was commonplace?”
That was in the days that relievers were brought in via cars and golf carts. That wasted gas and caused pollution. So it’s a good thing that those days are over.
Jerkface March 8th, 2012 at 5:25 pm
Starting pitching is lacking
–
There are twice as many starters hurling a sub 4 ERA than in 2005.
————
I don’t think ppl realize how much pitching has come back around.
There are twice as many starters hurling a sub 4 ERA
Half as many .900 OPS bats…
Jerkface – So… was it the chicken or the egg?
Or did drug testing nuke offense, which made pitching seem better?
Rich in NJ March 8th, 2012 at 5:25 pm
JAP
That meltdown may have helped Clemens decide to dabble in better living through chemistry.
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Perhaps. But then there was that weird, rage filled flip of the bat at Piazza that makes me think he might have gotten started on that a little earlier….
That was in the days that relievers were brought in via cars and golf carts.
==================================
It could happen again.
Just go green.
“so I think the statement that “pitching is more important for winning in the playoffs than hitting” holds true.”
But even assuming that’s true, for the sake of argument, you never know when even the best pitcher will pitch poorly or a lesser pitcher will pitch well, so the smart play is to have balance to be able to better adjust to any contingency.
Simply because outside of the first run scored, any further offensive production is unnecessary unless the pitchers give up more runs.
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There are few 1 run games than 4 run games in the playoffs, the more offense you have the less tight rope your pitchers have to walk.
I like the way the Yankees are currently setup and evolving. They are strong in every area, I hope the Yankees keep it that way.
“Perhaps. But then there was that weird, rage filled flip of the bat at Piazza that makes me think he might have gotten started on that a little earlier….”
I forgot about that. It was nuts and I defended him because I root for cloth. The umps and the Mets both failed that day.
Jerkface – So… was it the chicken or the egg?
Or did drug testing nuke offense, which made pitching seem better?
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It doesn’t matter, only that right now offense is becoming more scarce for individual batters, and pitching is becoming more prominent. Good hitters will become more valuable as teams are flooded with pitchers able to pitch in the 3 ERA range. Or maybe it won’t become more valuable, and some smart teams will get some steals by unloading Ivan Nova type pitchers for solid hitters.
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lol and it’s a process
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Best,
I liked ‘process’ a lot better than ‘I have a dream.’ The former is annoying, front-office speak, the latter is…scary.
Rich in NJ March 8th, 2012 at 5:35 pm
“Perhaps. But then there was that weird, rage filled flip of the bat at Piazza that makes me think he might have gotten started on that a little earlier….”
I forgot about that. It was nuts and I defended him because I root for cloth. The umps and the Mets both failed that day.
///
I was irritated – though unsurprised – by the morality play the media tried to make of that. Besides, there is the odd rumor about Piazza along the same lines…
rich in NJ – Yes, you want the balance to give yourself the best chance… but you never know when the pitchers or the hitters will show up, so if you have the better pitcher that is less likely to “not show up” that can control the entire game. If you only have pitchers like a Burnett that you never know what you are gonna get… then obviously you will (should) only be concerned about having more offense.
… and then some years your best starter will start and lose his game and come out of the pen and lose that game… and you just can’t plan for it. Your offense is fueled by some random combination of 9 different hitters “showing up” in each particular game. Your starting pitcher is going to (hopefully) pitch the entire game if possible, much less of it if he’s not good. Better to have the better starter… no?
J. Alfred Prufrock March 8th, 2012 at 5:36 pm
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lol and it’s a process
///
Best,
I liked ‘process’ a lot better than ‘I have a dream.’ The former is annoying, front-office speak, the latter is…scary.
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The latter keeps you up a night
. I know the loss of JM is something that will last for a long time unfortunately.
“It doesn’t matter, only that right now offense is becoming more scarce for individual batters, and pitching is becoming more prominent.”
Of course the cause matters. The cause always matters.
I asked this before.
Are they’re really going to be LESS elite hitters in the league?
Or is the definition of elite hitting just changing?
Because the implications of each of those things respectively are very, VERY different.
Better to have the better starter… no?
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Pitchers are too injury prone, I’d rather have 5+ solid pitchers while getting elite position players that should stay healthier.
Of course pitchers like CC who are elite AND stay healthy I’d pay 25 million for. And even ole CC has been hit or miss in the playoffs.
Wow!,
What a thread i missed!!
Tom,
Likewise!!
….I hope we could talk more about where you think your country is headed, that’s one of my passions.
JAP,
“I have a dream” I thought MLK’s day was in January
…Oh wait, the trade happened in January, oops!
Thread topic,
It’s really bad news……First Phil might be sent to the BP, if that happens it pretty much ends his career as a Yankee going forward. Joba, is going to be in the BP for sure, i was hoping that he could get another crack in the rotation.
What’s more important pitching and defense or offense?, both a balanced team has more chance to win it all than a team that has only one of those…..About the Braves that went a gazillion times to the PS, well so did the Yankees without pitching as well. Balance is the key to the Kingdom.
This sesason we will be alright, but in the future?? Not so sure.
Hmmmm, I remember that well. Just a guess, but that doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that would burn him too much if at all. Most people who only superficially remember that game are just going to think Aaron Boone and not really think of Clemens OR Moose or even Mo’s heroic multi-inning performance either.
I’m guessing Carl Everett would burn Moose more and not winning the WS at all too if anything at all burns him while he rides around in his tractor.
///
Uuuuuuhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……Mussina strikes me as a guy who cherishes slights. He’d fit in here at Lohud. His growling at Kim Jones’ inane postgame questions was always a classic.
Are they’re really going to be LESS elite hitters in the league?
Or is the definition of elite hitting just changing?
Because the implications of each of those things respectively are very, VERY different.
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If the definition of elite hitter is changing, then the hitters who would have been elite BEFORE the change become much more valuable.
“It doesn’t matter, only that right now offense is becoming more scarce for individual batters, and pitching is becoming more prominent.”
jerkface – i believe it completely matters, “cause” is all that ever matter. what qualifies as elite pitching and elite hitting is a constantly changing definition, quoting numbers like a .900OPS or a 3 ERA have no real meaning without context. You know this.
The latter keeps you up a night . I know the loss of JM is something that will last for a long time unfortunately.
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What does JM stand for, again?
If the definition of elite hitter is changing, then the hitters who would have been elite BEFORE the change become much more valuable.
No no no no no.
If the definition of an elite hitter is changing, those same hitters are still the etlite ones. Their expected results are what is changing, not their hitting ability.
“If the definition of elite hitter is changing, then the hitters who would have been elite BEFORE the change become much more valuable.”
Not unless THEY’RE no longer elite by old standards.
Where DID the .900 OPS players go?
Did they all get old and retire?
Or did a lot them become .850 OPS players?
Genuinely asking…
J. Alfred Prufrock March 8th, 2012 at 5:44 pm
The latter keeps you up a night . I know the loss of JM is something that will last for a long time unfortunately.
///
What does JM stand for, again?
=================
Harry Potter??….Voldemort?…MONTERO!!!!
“Your offense is fueled by some random combination of 9 different hitters “showing up” in each particular game. Your starting pitcher is going to (hopefully) pitch the entire game if possible, much less of it if he’s not good. Better to have the better starter… no?”
I think there are some dominant starters that may make that true, but I think they are very rare. And a tight strike zone can mess up even very, very good pitchers at times.
OTOH, if you have two absolute mashers in the lineup (e.g.,
A-Rod and MonteroCabrera and Fielder), one or both may be pitched pitched around, or failing that, be able to do damage with a pitch whose location is even marginally off.I don’t see one scenario being appreciably more likely than the other.
“Mussina strikes me as a guy who cherishes slights.”
Perhaps, but in this case was he slighted someplace outside of your imagination?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhKsgYRBm20
JAP,
“I have a dream” I thought MLK’s day was in January …Oh wait, the trade happened in January, oops!
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You believe that….can’t believe he said that.
luis, He was 1 for 3 with a LD single today as the DH.
Check back in later.
rich in NJ – I don’t see it as one being more likely than the other, but that one has a limit of possibility and the other does not.
Nick in SF March 8th, 2012 at 5:48 pm
“Mussina strikes me as a guy who cherishes slights.”
Perhaps, but in this case was he slighted someplace outside of your imagination?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhKsgYRBm20
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We’ll never know, but for me, things were so much easier when I was cruel.
No no no no no.
If the definition of an elite hitter is changing, those same hitters are still the etlite ones. Their expected results are what is changing, not their hitting ability.
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Yes yes yes yes, wtf?
Lets say ‘elite hitters’ now OPS .850. If you OPS .950, you’re way more valuable than the baseline elite hitter. You are more scarce. This should be a fairly easy concept to understand. As the average hitting declines, those who are good at hitting become more valuable. This is even true contextually, because the OPS+ of that hitter will be superior to previous years.
David Ortiz’s .954 OPS OPS+ in 2011 was 154, in 2003 his .961 was worth 144. He hit worse than 2003 but was 10% better than average. He was more valuable contextually.
The average starter had a 4.21 ERA , batter .258 .323 .408 .730 last year
The average starter had a 4.55 ERA , batter .268 .330 .424 .755 in 2005
Hitter who OPS .900+ will have a greater OPS+, pitchers who throw with a 3 ERA will have a lower ERA+.
luis March 8th, 2012 at 5:47 pm
J. Alfred Prufrock March 8th, 2012 at 5:44 pm
The latter keeps you up a night . I know the loss of JM is something that will last for a long time unfortunately.
///
What does JM stand for, again?
=================
Harry Potter??….Voldemort?…MONTERO!!!!
///
I’m going to say it once again, ’til I instill it
I know I’m going to feel this way, each time he kills it….
Mon-TERRR-O.
See you later, bro
.
If drug testing caused offensive player ability to decline overall, this would naturally lower league wide OPS as there would be less “power” in the game. This would then also naturally lower league wide ERA as less powerful hitters mean less powerful hits, which means less runs scored.
Right now all that you know is that OPS is getting worse and ERA is getting better. Until you discover the root cause of this, you can’t make any statement as to there being “less good offense” or “less good pitching” in the league… the stats and results you are referring to in order to figure that out do not exist in a vacuum, they are a result of each other.
“The average starter had a 4.21 ERA , batter .258 .323 .408 .730 last year
The average starter had a 4.55 ERA , batter .268 .330 .424 .755 in 2005″
Jerkface, are these from BP?
Not unless THEY’RE no longer elite by old standards.
Where DID the .900 OPS players go?
Did they all get old and retire?
Or did a lot them become .850 OPS players?
Genuinely asking…
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I don’t understand your first point? I don’t know where the old hitters went, I know Tex become an .800 OPS bat. He used to be a .900 OPS bat. Same with A-rod. Less great hitters coming up from the minors, more good pitching.
MLB XM & Baseball Prospectus theorized that due to the offensive nature of the game teams pushed the elite athletes towards the mound.
jerkface – Your premise works if there was some dearth of elite hitting, but there isn’t. Hitting is down league wide, not just at the top.
“you’re way more valuable than the baseline elite hitter”
This is a completely invalid concept. What is your arbitrary cutoff for a successful elite hitter? That will determine how much of a deviation there is in the league.
Jerkface, you’re still missing the point.
You’re relying on a constant, that the .950 hitters of the past will REMAIN .950 hitters.
You’re isolating “elite” hitters in a vacuum and assuming the game is changing around them, but they’re remaining a constant.
So again the question is, where DID the .900 OPS players go?
And for the fewer who remained .900 OPS players last year, how do we know they’re going to remain there this year and next? No change happens overnight.
youtube tells us why the loss of Montero hurts so much:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
You’re relying on a constant, that the .950 hitters of the past will REMAIN .950 hitters.
You’re isolating “elite” hitters in a vacuum and assuming the game is changing around them, but they’re remaining a constant.
So again the question is, where DID the .900 OPS players go?
And for the fewer who remained .900 OPS players last year, how do we know they’re going to remain there this year and next? No change happens overnight.
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What? No I’m not. How are you guys not getting this?
The question is simple JF, why do you think super-elite hitters are going to remain static outside the curve, rather than their stats evolve like EVERYONE else’s, making their production still super-elite, just with different numbers in the columns than in year’s past?
“Less great hitters coming up from the minors, more good pitching. ”
How could you even attempt to prove this?
Pitching is currently easier because there are less ‘roided out freaks in the game. This doesn’t necessarily mean there are more “good pitchers”. It means worse pitchers can achieve better results, prettier looking numbers. The talent level didn’t change. You have to go way deeper to actually figure that out.
Nick in SF March 8th, 2012 at 5:56 pm
LMAO!!!
……..I know what the next link is going to be……i was blinded by love or something along those lines…
“stuckey, I posted my 5:02 comment before I saw this. I am persona non randy right now, so it’s especially amusing that he (probably unintentionally) credited my line of reasoning to you.”
that’s right it was nick in sf who asked this question a while ago.
it’s still a good question despite the source
that’s one thing to remember.
a good statement or question is independent of the person.
and vice versa
“What? No I’m not. How are you guys not getting this?”
No idea. You’re arguing that a handful of hitters are going to become MORE valuable, assuming their production is not going to succumb to the league-wide trend eventually too.
I don’t know how you don’t get that…
The question is simple JF, why do you think super-elite hitters are going to remain static outside the curve, rather than their stats evolve like EVERYONE else’s, making their production still super-elite, just with different numbers in the columns than in year’s past?
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I don’t think that. If it comes down to it and there is 1 .900 OPS hitter left in baseball, he will be the most valuable offensive player in the league. The players who are currently putting up a .900 OPS become more valuable as there are fewer of them left.
Somehow I doubt you have done league wide standard deviations of production levels to determine that elite hitters have remained at their elite levels and the rest of the league has gotten worse around them.
If you have, kudos… and post it.
If it comes down to it and there is 1 .900 OPS hitter left in baseball, he will be the most valuable offensive player in the league.
This statement means almost next to nothing.
This statement means almost next to nothing.
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Ok dude, barry bonds was not the most valuable offensive player in the league in 2004
ID,
I think JF point is very easy to grasp…..There are going to be fewer players able to hit to a 900 OPS, therefore they become the scarcest comodity, so their value goes up the roof….In contrast, more lower ERA guys show up, therefore their price go down because they are easier to replace….Very simple supply vs demand.
jerkface – He was. What does that prove about whether or not there is more or less elite hitting in the game?
The most productive players will always be the most valuable player.
Oh. My. God.
Jerkface has discovered the meaning of life.
“it’s still a good question despite the source ”
A question which has, to date, still not received a good answer.
“I don’t think that. If it comes down to it and there is 1 .900 OPS hitter left in baseball, he will be the most valuable offensive player in the league. The players who are currently putting up a .900 OPS become more valuable as there are fewer of them left.”
Yeah, you’re whiffing on this one JF.
This is NO different than the 1 players who had a 1.100 OPS was most valuable, then the 1.050 guy, then the 1.000 guy, then the .950 guy, then the .900 guy.
There’s always going to be guys in the rarified air. The few at the tip, tip, top. That isn’t changing.
They aren’t becoming more valuable then they ever were. The definition of “tip tip top” is changing.
Sorry dude, you’re a smart guy and its not fun to acknowledge you’ve utterly gone down a dead end, but you have.
I do think that you need to have some good offense. Just wanted to make that clear.
But if I have to be top-heavy in one area over another, I’d be top-heavy in pitching. If you can achieve a perfect balance (whatever that is) well then you go for it.
And in another “old wives tale,” ha ha – I never hear “You can never have enough hitting” thrown around. However, I do hear “You can never have enough pitching” thrown around a lot. Someone picked it up in a drunken barroom brawl and it somehow stuck? Or people around the game have been there, done that, and are speaking from reality?
Here’s another example. You can have one prolific hitter and that hitter can sometimes carry a team. We’ve heard so many times that X player carried the team on his back. Of course you add other hitting to that, and you can be in pretty good shape.
How many times has one starting pitcher having a great season been enough to carry a team? How many times has the stellar offense come back in a game, only to be let down by shoddy pitching? And the game is then lost.
I know you can make arguments on the other side of the street, you can reverse situations and somehow make them appear to come out the same, but I don’t care how good your hitting is, if you have lousy pitching, you aren’t going to win. Conversely, you have a better chance of winning with stellar pitching and mediocre hitting than you do with the reverse, IMO. Because no matter how prolific your hitting, if your pitching isn’t shutting down the opposition, it isn’t going to matter.
Later y’all.
luis – JF is not making the point he thinks he is… you have to discover WHY there are less .900 OPS players and more sub 4 ERA pitchers in the game before you can state that there are actually more or less of them talent wise… or actually do all of the work required to figure out if it’s true.
Just because OPS is down and ERA is down… doesn’t mean there are less “elite hitters” if the elite hitters have gotten worse at the same rate as the rest of the league. Just like it doesn’t mean there are more good pitchers, they could just be achieving better results.
One belies the other, you have to figure out where it started before you can figure out if there are more of less of the other.
I think if you blame it on drug testing lowering offensive production overall, then the talent pool hasn’t actually changed at all. The results are merely different because there is less power int he game.
If the talent pool was actually changing, you would be able to point at WAR STDDEV charts for the entire league… or “something” that shows that there are actually less elite tiered hitters in the game.
I think if you blame it on drug testing lowering offensive production overall, then the talent pool hasn’t actually changed at all. The results are merely different because there is less power int he game.
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And then players with great power would be more valuable!
ID,
Very good point, i think is due in part for drug testing but as well that teams in general have directed their better athletes in to pitching. I wonder if there any way to settle this issue with hard data.
J. Alfred Prufrock March 8th, 2012 at 5:20 pm
Rich in NJ March 8th, 2012 at 5:03 pm
“It helps that the batter doesn’t know what a pitcher will throw and where he will throw it + he can just plain overpower or finesse the hitter”
Yet great and near great pitchers have often failed in big spots.
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I wonder if it burns Mussina at all that most don’t remember how the great Roger Clemens blew up in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS, and that Mussina’s cleanup job rescued the day.
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why should the fans remember that when they can’ remember who helped to carry the Yankees through the Minnesota series and first 4 games in the ALCS. Rodriguez still gets blamed for that. Like I said last night. NYY fans aren’t any smarter than other fans, but have the need for more scaprgoats than any other team. They’re as petty and any Red sox fan anywhere.
jerkface – Yes they would! That doesn’t actually mean there will be more or less of them, however. You gotta go do all that work.
luis – It would be ridiculously difficult to come to a “clean” answer… but you would have to start with assuming a production marker (probably wRC or WAR something like that) and then do standard deviation charts for years and years and years…. and see if the upper “elite” tiers are actually growing or shrinking. Then you would better understand the actual change in the talent pool, and the effect it has on the results of both parties.