Mariano, Martin and Maddux
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 12, 2012 
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When Mariano Rivera had pitched his one inning on Sunday, Russell Martin was just like everyone else: He knew what to expect, but he still marveled at a 42-year-old who hadn’t pitched a game in months hitting his spots consistently in a spring training game.
“The command he has is second to none,” Martin said. “There’s only one other guy I can think of that has this command, is Greg Maddux. He gets tunnel vision, and I pretty much feel like it’s just me and him in the ballpark when he’s pitching. He lets nothing affect him, ever.”
Martin is qualified to make the comparison because he was behind the plate in Los Angeles for Maddux’s final season. Martin caught Maddux’s final regular-season game — a six-inning, no-walk gem – and he caught Maddux’s final postseason appearance out of the Dodgers bullpen in the NLCS.
“That’s a good way to put it,” said Tony Pena, who had 26 career at-bats against Maddux and has watched a lot of Rivera from the bench. “Those two guys, you see Maddux pitch, nice and smooth. You see those guys that throw strikes and command both sides of the plate. Their body didn’t even move. They’re just nice and easy and just throw the ball right wherever they want to.”
Martin said there was one thing that stood out about Rivera once he was watching from behind the plate instead of on television.
“His focus,” Martin said. “A lot of people have ability that you can recognize how hard they throw, or how good their breaking balls are. With him, it’s just focus. How he gets locked in and nothing bothers him. He obviously has a good cutter, but it’s the fact he can put it where he wants to almost every time. And when he does miss, it’s just barely missing. That’s going on up here in his head. That’s what impresses me the most about Mo, the mental toughness that he has and the focus that he has.”
Associated Press photo
It all stems from repeating a delivery…..both Rivera and Maddux are like machines…..the exact same every time…..it’s why their command is so good and also why they never have had arm injuries.
does doc holladay get 300 wins?
Halladay has 188 career wins and will turn 35 in May.
ya i was readin an article on espn about where he stood, i think its a long shot but heres the article
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweets.....reer-games
I think CC has a better chance.
CC definitely has a better chance….he’s only 12 wins behind Doc and is 3 or 4 years younger……also is on a team better set up for long term success.
They may both get there….but I would say Sabathia has much better odds of it.
Is it my imagination or in that picture on the last thread – does Almonte kind of look like a young David Justice?
def agree CC has a better shot
he won’t make it unless he pitches until he’s 42 years old. he’s not going to win 18 games a year for the next 6 years.
randy l. March 12th, 2012 at 7:43 am
“Pineda only needs a mediocre change up to be effective”
this is a pineda myth.
i’ll just call it a PYTH for short.
pineda already had a mediocre change up last year and he got hammered the second half of the year once hitters had the book on him.
if hitters lay off the sliders that are out of the zone, pineda has problem. hitters will make that adjustment.
there are a lot of PYTH’s.
another is that he touches 97mph a lot.
———————————————-
I thought I saw a breakdown that had him over 97 about 20% of the time last year. That is impressive, and I consider that a lot. Not sure where the data came from…
Doc Iac March 12th, 2012 at 9:24 am
does doc holladay get 300 wins?
———————————–
I agree with the sentiment that there is no way this happens. He has been absolutely dominant, but didn’t start being dominant early enough. I think CC will be done before he can reach 300 wins. His weight and the wear and tear on his legs will prevent it from happening. His knee surgery suggests to me that he will eventually tear up his legs before he gets old enough to wrack up that many wins.
CC would need another 7 years of 18 wins per season to get to 300. He would be 38/39 at that point so it is possible. The weight might play into it a bit. As he gets older it might take its toll – but Boomer was still pitching very effectively into his late 30s so you never know.
“he’s not going to win 18 games a year for the next 6 years.”
He could…..he’s about as well conditioned a guy as there is out there……I think can get to 300 if he stays healthy….and if the Phillies stay good long term.
“I thought I saw a breakdown that had him over 97 about 20% of the time last year.”
if you can find that link, that’d be interesting to look at the info.
Pineda velocity:
http://www.fangraphs.com/pitch.....8;pitch=FA
blake March 12th, 2012 at 9:54 am
“he’s not going to win 18 games a year for the next 6 years.”
He could…..he’s about as well conditioned a guy as there is out there……I think can get to 300 if he stays healthy….and if the Phillies stay good long term.
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The second part is a bigger problem than the first.
The Phillies are an old team with no talent in their minor leagues and a lot of money tied up in players who are turning out to be brittle as they age.
I think that team falls off a cliff in the next two years.
Randy
Pineda’s second half wasn’t about other teams getting a book on him so much as it was that he wore down. He had pitched winterball and was throwing more innings than he ever had in the past and he fatigued. Saw the same thing happen with Ivan Nova two years ago.
Chase Utley apparently has chronic knee tendinitis and has yet to play in ST.
By my count….CC will turn 38 in 2018….that’s 7 seasons and he’d need to average 17.7 wins over those 8 seasons to reach 300. If he stays healthy and wants to pitch to close to age 40 then he’s got a very good chance to get there.
Chip,
I agree…..and that may really hurt Docs chances……I just don’t like where that team is going and started talking about that last year. They have thrown all their eggs into this current RH pitching they are on…..and the window is starting to close a little bit…..id still expect him to win close to 20 games for the next 2 or 3 years……but after that I can see him pitching well but winning 12-14 because the Phillies aren’t good anymore……
Current run they are on *
Did a quick PitchFX analysis on Pineda – looks like his FB was closer to 10% above 97, though the % depends on what pitches you want to include. Data from:
http://joelefkowitz.com/pitche.....pid=501381
?@YankeesPR
Happy Birthday today to Yankees Pitching Coach Larry Rothschild! Rumor has it his b-day wish is for 5 20-game winners in ’12
blake March 12th, 2012 at 9:04 am
It all stems from repeating a delivery…..both Rivera and Maddux are like machines…..the exact same every time…..it’s why their command is so good and also why they never have had arm injuries.
********
Rivera had arm surgery in the early 90s. I am not sure whether post-surgery he changed his mechanics or not. Plus I believe at the end of the 2008 season he minor surgery again.
morning all.
If doc reaches 250 wins… he is hof in my book. He has been one of the preeminent pitcher in my generation, pretty much how i measure hof.
“Did a quick PitchFX analysis on Pineda – looks like his FB was closer to 10% above 97, though the % depends on what pitches you want to include. Data from:
http://joelefkowitz.com/pitche…..pid=501381″
interesting tool
according to it , he gets up there.
there are also some funny games every now and then where he maxes out at 95 ish and sits 92.
interesting to watch.
Interesting tweet from YankeeSource on Twitter
@Yankeesource?
A Mariners scout who saw ManBan today, “we want Campos back, you already have a future #1/#2 in Banuelos.”
“Rivera had arm surgery in the early 90s. I am not sure whether post-surgery he changed his mechanics or not. Plus I believe at the end of the 2008 season he minor surgery again.”
He had elbow surgery in 92 but not TJS….and he had somepretty calcification removed from his shoulder in 2008…..pretty good medical history for a little guy that’s pitched as long as he has I would say…..pitching is an unnatural motion….so even if you have perfect mechanics its not really good for you…..so if you do it long enough almost everyone has some sort of issue…..
Tackelberry March 12th, 2012 at 10:29 am
Interesting tweet from YankeeSource on Twitter
@Yankeesource?
A Mariners scout who saw ManBan today, “we want Campos back, you already have a future #1/#2 in Banuelos.”
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campos is suppose to be that good too huh? i like it…young filthy pitchin would be nice
“A Mariners scout who saw ManBan today, “we want Campos back, you already have a future #1/#2 in Banuelos”
Yup….he’s a stud….may be the #1 pitching prospect in baseball this time next season…..but they can’t have Campos back unless give Montero back
pat March 12th, 2012 at 10:17 am
?@YankeesPR
Happy Birthday today to Yankees Pitching Coach Larry Rothschild! Rumor has it his b-day wish is for 5 20-game winners in ’12
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Wow, Larry and I have the same birthday wish!
“Pineda’s second half wasn’t about other teams getting a book on him so much as it was that he wore down. He had pitched winterball and was throwing more innings than he ever had in the past and he fatigued. Saw the same thing happen with Ivan Nova two years ago.”
Absolutely, unequivocally, and beyond the shadow of a doubt. Thank you for saving me the trouble.
The same thing happened to Alexi Ogando last year, a common phenomenon that happens especially to young pitchers who have two many innings put on their arm in too short a period of time.
Happy Birthday Shame!!!!!!
PacoDooley, thanks for the input and keep it coming. It’s always good to have any misinformation cleared up on the forum since fans understandably accept information put out when they don’t know otherwise.
jerkface is also good for clearing things up.
that should read “too many innings”
Thanks trisha!! Its actually not my birthday yet but Larry gave me a great idea for when I blow out the candles
You’ll know when its my birthday because I’ll be on here telling you all how the Yankees have played a home game just for me for the last 6 years all providing me with stellar memories (they haven’t lost on April 17th in a while… so.. you’re welcome people!).
blake March 12th, 2012 at 10:07 am
Chip,
I agree…..and that may really hurt Docs chances……I just don’t like where that team is going and started talking about that last year. They have thrown all their eggs into this current RH pitching they are on…..and the window is starting to close a little bit…..id still expect him to win close to 20 games for the next 2 or 3 years……but after that I can see him pitching well but winning 12-14 because the Phillies aren’t good anymore……
————————-
It will be like when he was pitching well for bad Toronto teams.
Shane – well duh. It was birthday wish, not birthday! Someone came on the other day and said they had the same birthday as Rothschild, and when I saw you mention birthday, well there you go!
Happy Birthday to the lohuddite who has the same birthday as Larry Rothschild!
I just can’t remember who it is.
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 12th, 2012 at 10:40 am
“Pineda’s second half wasn’t about other teams getting a book on him so much as it was that he wore down. He had pitched winterball and was throwing more innings than he ever had in the past and he fatigued. Saw the same thing happen with Ivan Nova two years ago.”
Absolutely, unequivocally, and beyond the shadow of a doubt. Thank you for saving me the trouble.
The same thing happened to Alexi Ogando last year, a common phenomenon that happens especially to young pitchers who have two many innings put on their arm in too short a period of time.
———————
Yeah – people see that Pineda threw 171 innings in the majors last year and figure that’s not enough to wear him down.
They don’t consider that he threw 139 the year before and then went to winterball where he probably threw another what – 50 or 60 then straight to spring training where he threw however many innings and then right into the season with hardly any rest in between.
Chip, and conventional wisdom is that Pineda was rushed up from the minors to help out the Mariners, so his arm wasn’t ready for the innings put on it.
We know what that can do, firsthand.
He had elbow surgery in 92 but not TJS….and he had somepretty calcification removed from his shoulder in 2008…..pretty good medical history for a little guy that’s pitched as long as he has I would say…
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He’s not really a little guy.
no one knows exactly what happened to pineda the second half.
what we know is what the results were.
the rest is speculation and good and bad guesses.
for those who can understand graphs and numbers, fangraphs is pretty good.
they do some weird things though like not have a category for wang’s sinker.
that’s right, there was no sinker category on fangraphs.
I’m not looking forward to watching Pineda v. Wang, if that’s the matchup, because I’m going to want both of them to kill.
Pineda’s starts are going to be so freakin’ exciting during the season.. as randy said a few days back, it will be ‘must see tv.’
Its no problem trisha, I love my birthday a lot so I’m more than happy to get extra well wishes!
“He’s not really a little guy.”
As compared to the average person no….as.compared to the average big league pitcher he’s kinda smallish….185 lbs is what he’s listed at. My point is that clean repeatable deliveries tend to get hurt less often…..
Shame- it can be your un-birthday today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdsZT7WKjW8