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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Pregame notes: Garcia hopeful about bruised pitching hand

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 15, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Freddy Garcia has his right hand heavily wrapped and admits that it still hurts “a little bit,” but he’s also hopeful that he won’t miss more than a few days of pitching.

“Bad bruise, that’s all,” he said.

After being hit by a one-hopper in yesterday’s game against the Blue Jays, Garcia’s had began to swell immediately and he was taken for x-rays that showed no broken bones. Garcia hasn’t really been able to test the hand and said he hasn’t been given any sort of timetable for when he’ll be able to pitch again.

That said, he seem optimistic. The injury seems less serious than even he initially believed, but it might still be too early to say exactly how long Garcia will be out.

“I just have to wait,” he said.

A few other real quick notes before I get on the road…

• Talked to D.J. Mitchell a little bit this morning. Yesterday he used a new cutter for the first time in a game. He had tinkered with it in bullpen sessions late last season and likes it because the movement is the opposite of his two-seamer. It’s clearly a fourth pitch for him behind his fastball, changeup and curveball.

• Speaking of working on pitches . . . Boone Logan threw a bullpen today and focuses strictly on fastballs and changeups. He said he’s been using a few more changeups this spring and would like to carry that into the season. He’s always had a changeup, but he usually leans heavily on his fastball and slider.

• George Kontos thors his second batting practice today. David Phelps and Ivan Nova are also scheduled to throw sides.

• Mitchell and Manny Banuelos have sides tomorrow. Garcia is listed as throwing a side tomorrow, but I doubt that’s actually going to happen.

• Today’s available pitchers: Michael Pineda, Brett Marshall, Juan Cedeno, Clay Rapada, Mike O’Connor, Cesar Cabral, Adam Warren and Graham Stoneburner.

• Today’s second string: C J.R. Murphy, 1B Jose Gil, 2B David Adams, SS Doug Bernier, 3B Brandon Laird, LF Justin Maxwell, CF Melky Mesa, RF Zoilo Almonte, DH Gary Sanchez

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167 Responses to “Pregame notes: Garcia hopeful about bruised pitching hand”

  1. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 10:01 am

    Nice assortment to young arms to watch today.

    :)

  2. Rich in NJ March 15th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    The Yankees already were taking notice and were at least considering Phelps for a major league relief role this year in a vein similar to what Hector Noesi did last year. The likelihood, though, is he will go to Scranton and join what the scout said “will probably be the best rotation in the minors.””

    It’s like heroin for them.

  3. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 10:09 am

    Rich-

    I don’t have that much of a problem with a guy pitching out of the pen as long as they are not
    yo-yo’ed around during the season.

    That’s what I am opposed to personally.

    If the role is consistent for the year it should not be that much of a problem.

  4. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 10:11 am

    Rosy-

    If you’re out there.

    I think you’re gonna find that Noesi is way better than a #5 starter in your rotation.

    JMO.

    ;)

  5. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 10:13 am

    “It’s like heroin for them.”

    Addicting to having good pitchers on their 25 man roster.

    Someone get them some methadone!

    I mean look what they did to Noesi? Scranton didn’t make the postseason last year (a high priority) and now he’s not stretched out enough to help them this year.

    Oh wait…

    I mean they hurt his trade value…

    Oh… ummm, give me a few minutes, I’ll get this right eventually.

  6. Rich in NJ March 15th, 2012 at 10:13 am

    MTU

    Cashman said after the season that he didn’t like the way they used Noesi, that it was a wasted year. Why do that again when you have Garcia for that role?

    Right now, their rotation from 2013 on is in flux. They have a lot of candidates, but they need to give each the best chance to succeed. This type of thinking doesn’t do that.

  7. Rich in NJ March 15th, 2012 at 10:19 am

    ‘the yankees management never understood what kind of pitcher he was.

    they fell under the sabermetric dogma that wang was just being lucky winning with such a low strike out rate.”

    I don’t buy this at all, randy. I think they handled his rehab poorly and had him pitching in the ML before he was ready, but what did they do to devalue his role while he was healthy? Nothing.

    And again, asking AL pitchers to bat in NL parks is ridiculously reckless.

  8. pat March 15th, 2012 at 10:20 am

    Bryce Harper is like a baseball player and a psych study in human behavior all rolled into one.

    http://www.gq.com/sports/guide.....ll-preview

  9. The Genius Maker March 15th, 2012 at 10:20 am

    Randy I
    baseball is a game of probabilities and then hunches land on top of the probabilities.

    that was the billy beane character in the moneyball movie.

    he believed in probability but he strongly went with his hunches too.
    **************

    Actually, Billy Beane mostly used what the stats said and that was the entire premise as any hunch or opinion on what the scouts saw is not reliable because it has bias. He looked at the stats

  10. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:21 am

    “Cashman said after the season that he didn’t like the way they used Noesi, that it was a wasted year. Why do that again when you have Garcia for that role?”

    Which is why Phelps will most likely be in AAA this season.

    The difference with Noesi is that Phelps has already been stretched out with over a 170 innings already in AAA. There isn’t much more for him to learn at AAA. However, with Garcia present that’s will he’ll be in April.

  11. blake March 15th, 2012 at 10:23 am

    “Cashman said after the season that he didn’t like the way they used Noesi, that it was a wasted year. Why do that again when you have Garcia for that role?”

    Duh…they should have realized that last year…..they didn’t need Noesi in the big leagues.

  12. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:24 am

    By the way, those 170-180 AAA innings for Phelps is over a two year period and with him turning 26 later this year, I think he’s ready for the majors.

  13. The Genius Maker March 15th, 2012 at 10:25 am

    I don’t think the Yankees did anything wrong with the approach to Wang with the exception of not getting the rehab correct, but that happens all the time. They knew what they had in Wang and it is similar with Nova. They do not get a lot of strikeouts, but they don’t get centered often because of the movement. Wang’s biggest issue was that he didn’t have secondary pitches if the sinker wasn’t working, but when he was throwing 95 with great sink it was very tough. Nova has a larger repertoire of good moving stuff and his success will be hinged on his control IMO as his stuff is good.

  14. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:25 am

    “Duh…they should have realized that last year…..they didn’t need Noesi in the big leagues.”

    Yet, they traded him as his trade value was high due to that major league experience.

  15. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 10:27 am

    That’s my point with a guy like Phelps.

    he’s already made his innings limits to be ready for the Ml.

    not only that he is a little older than some of the others.

    Just much more of a finished product.

    If he spent the year at ML level in a consistent role I don’t think it would hurt his development.

    Most likely he just goes back to AAA.

    Rich-

    I understand where you are coming from. There has been much to be desired in the developmental
    approach in the past.

    let’s just hope that it is in the past.

    Some of the signs that it is may be evident in the way guys like the 2 B’s are being handled thus far.

  16. Rich in NJ March 15th, 2012 at 10:27 am

    We don’t know that Noesi’s value wouldn’t have been higher if he had a regular role as a mL starter having a great year. I suspect it would have been. Or maybe, if that had happened, they wouldn’t have believed they needed to add a starter.

  17. blake March 15th, 2012 at 10:29 am

    I like Nova a lot….he may be a career 3rd or 4th starter but I think his upside is higher than that if his slider continues to develop and if he can limit walks. He gets ground balls and he competes…..even if he is a mid rotation starter but a consistent one that’s really valuable these days.

  18. blake March 15th, 2012 at 10:30 am

    “Yet, they traded him as his trade value was high due to that major league experience.”

    Eh…I think his value was mainly established in the minors where he was pretty good…..he was inconsistent last year out of the pen. They wasted a year of service time with him…..

  19. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:31 am

    “We don’t know that Noesi’s value wouldn’t have been higher if he had a regular role as a mL starter having a great year. I suspect it would have been. Or maybe, if that had happened, they wouldn’t have believed they needed to add a starter.”

    Noesi at AAA as a starter last year wouldn’t have stopped them from getting Pineda or Kuroda. Also, in my opinion, a pitcher performing in the majors effectively already appears to be more valuable to me than someone tolling in the minors especially if you already know that pitcher can be a starting pitcher. Anyhow that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

  20. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:33 am

    “Eh…I think his value was mainly established in the minors where he was pretty good…..he was inconsistent last year out of the pen. They wasted a year of service time with him…..”

    Then that’s where you and I disagree because I think he showed enough in the majors last year that he could be an effective major league pitcher. Pitching at SWB against mostly career minor league hitters only enhances the value so much.

  21. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 10:33 am

    Not that it necessarily counts for anything but a guy like Cone has stated in the past that he thought that the Pen was an excellent training ground for ML starters.

    I think he thought it was like a confidence-builder get-your-feet-wet kinda’ thing.

    FWIW.

  22. blake March 15th, 2012 at 10:34 am

    I believe you sign Serge Mitres to be long men for your big league club……I don’t like taking one of your minor league starters and putting them in that role because it screws with their development and it also wastes their service time. Sign expendable journeymen for the unimportant mop up man role….

  23. Rich in NJ March 15th, 2012 at 10:34 am

    Craw

    Kuroda is the kind of deal you always sign (upside, just money).

    We don’t know what they would have done on Pineda. They were after Felix. I may not agree, but I get that. He’s close to a sure thing, young, and although not cheap, they can afford him if they want.

    I think a pitcher gains value with ML experience, but only in the role he is being used in, unless he is beyond awesome, which is so rare that when it happens, that pitcher isn’t often traded.

  24. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 10:35 am

    “Duh…they should have realized that last year…..they didn’t need Noesi in the big leagues.”

    Blake, were there any negative ramifications?

  25. blake March 15th, 2012 at 10:35 am

    “Then that’s where you and I disagree because I think he showed enough in the majors last year that he could be an effective major league pitcher.”

    That’s true…..but I don’t think they brought him up for his trade value…..or anything like that.

  26. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:35 am

    “I believe you sign Serge Mitres to be long men for your big league club……I don’t like taking one of your minor league starters and putting them in that role because it screws with their development and it also wastes their service time. Sign expendable journeymen for the unimportant mop up man role….”

    Actually, I don’t like any Serge Mitres near my ballclub. Furthermore, how are you fooling with Phelps development? He’s already major league ready. So is Noesi.

  27. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 10:37 am

    I don’t think it’s the role so much as the yo-yo’ing that sometimes goes on that might be detrimental
    to our young guys.

    ML experience, even out of the pen, has got to be a positive thing in my eyes.

    That said, Phelps is probably on his way back to AAA to await a callup.

  28. blake March 15th, 2012 at 10:37 am

    “Blake, were there any negative ramifications?”

    He had to pitch winter ball to get innings where he coukd have gotten hurt or kidnapped and they wasted a year of service time…..not really….but were there any real positive ramifications for him being in the bigs last year?

  29. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:38 am

    “That’s true…..but I don’t think they brought him up for his trade value…..or anything like that.”

    I never said they did and if you thought I implied that then that’s not what I’m saying.

  30. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:40 am

    “He had to pitch winter ball to get innings where he coukd have gotten hurt or kidnapped and they wasted a year of service time…..not really….but were there any real positive ramifications for him being in the bigs last year?”

    Yeah, there is as you give him a good taste on what it takes to be major league pitcher and hanging around the great Rivera is another positive result.

  31. blake March 15th, 2012 at 10:40 am

    “. Furthermore, how are you fooling with Phelps development? He’s already major league ready. So is Noesi.”

    I don’t think its good to take a guy that is ready innings wise for the big leagues and make then a reliever and then have to stretch them back out again unless you really need them on the big league roster…….if you need a set up man like they did in 2009 with Hughes then while its still not ideal its understandable…….I don’t think it is to do it for an important mop up role.

  32. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:42 am

    “I don’t think it’s the role so much as the yo-yo’ing that sometimes goes on that might be detrimental to our young guys.”

    Right, what they did with Hughes and Joba going back and forth was wrong in my opinion. You give them a taste of the majors, but not to detriment of their overall development as you define their final role as major league players.

  33. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 10:42 am

    “but were there any real positive ramifications for him being in the bigs last year?”

    If we did, it would be pure speculation. Which is my point. Noesi seems have been a factor in landing a pitching prospect some are already including in Top 100 lists.

    Just not sure we’re on a solid track by using what might of happened in an alternative reality as the basis of criticism, ignoring what actually happened, which in my estimation doesn’t equate to his value having been lowered.

  34. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 10:43 am

    Blake-

    Anytime a young guy can show that he can get ML hitters out with authority and consistency that has to have some value to the Yankees.

    MiLB #’s are just that.

    I do not like it when they adopt the “all handson deck mentality” and just yo-yo the guy around to suit the need of the moment.

    Especially if that is detrimental to a young guy’s career path.

    That I am against.

  35. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:45 am

    “I don’t think its good to take a guy that is ready innings wise for the big leagues and make then a reliever and then have to stretch them back out again unless you really need them on the big league roster…….if you need a set up man like they did in 2009 with Hughes then while its still not ideal its understandable…….I don’t think it is to do it for an important mop up role.”

    Each case is different, but I’m against the back and forth type of roles. The problem with Hughes is that I don’t think he had enough AAA time and his stretching out was already hampered by injuries in 2007 and 2008.

  36. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:47 am

    “I do not like it when they adopt the “all handson deck mentality” and just yo-yo the guy around to suit the need of the moment.”

    I’m against the yo-yo process too.

  37. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 15th, 2012 at 10:47 am

    YOWZA. I will NEVER again go through on this forum what I went through last night. I hope anyway. It’s a lot more fun skimming through posts when people are going at it ad nauseum and I’m not one of them. The killer is that it threw the rest of my night off and I ended up watching television into the wee hours and got no sleep.

    1. In terms of probabilities, I am predicting that the highest probability is that both Pineda and Montero will end up being huge. In fact, I’m predicting that at 100%.

    2. I don’t think there is any question that we’re going to miss Montero, but I guess that remains to be see, just like whether Pineda is the beast I say he is, remains to be seen.

    3. As I have been the Nats adopted mommy for a real long time, I will have real tears (probably figurative and literal) watching today’s game especially since CM will be pitching for them. I am so proud of what they have become as a team and so excited for their future.

    That said, I am hoping for a variation of what Kate said. A real pitcher’s show down, and then, in the last inning, an unearned run for the Ys when a Nats outfielder misplays a fly ball in the sun.

    Morning all!

  38. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 10:49 am

    “The Yankees already were taking notice and were at least considering Phelps for a major league relief role this year in a vein similar to what Hector Noesi did last year.”

    Why would we want to give Phelps a grand total of 60 innings as a reward?

  39. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 10:50 am

    I think the Yankees used to confuse good short-term results with full development, and they also
    had a much stronger “all hands on deck” mentality.

    I’m not sure if that attitude is completely washed out yet but if it is not it should be IMO.

    Making mistakes with the first crop, though unfortunate, was somewhat understandable.

    Repeating such mistakes would not be.

    The evidence of the 2B’s handling suggests that the Yankees have learned something.

    They built depth into the ML rotation so they would not have to rush guys.

    I hope their MiLB development approach reaches the highest standards of quality so that we can reap the rewards of all of our Pitching potential.

    Fingers crossed that the important lessons have been learned.

  40. Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    “Why would we want to give Phelps a grand total of 60 innings as a reward?”

    Because it beats going to SWB for the third straight year.

  41. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 10:52 am

    Noesi’s role as potential spot starter for this year was in danger because he didn’t pitch a lot of innings. Nova managed to grab ~45 innings in the majors in 2010 while pitching 180 total. Noesi pitched 80 innings last year and wasted almost a full year of service. If they want Phelps in the pen they should be prepared to use him to pitch a lot of innings. I’d rather Phelps innings in the majors come from spot starts, which would be more representative of the type of player he is, rather than some innings in relief.

  42. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    The Yankees have made a fairly substantial bet on their young Pitching.

    If they fail to develop it well from here on out they are simply dumber than dog snot.

    They may have made some mistakes in the past but I have to believe they are no longer that dumb.

    Prove me right Cashman.

    ;)

  43. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 10:57 am

    Phelps only had 100 innings last year, picked up some more in the AFL, but having back to back years below 150 wouldn’t be productive.

  44. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 10:58 am

    Because it beats going to SWB for the third straight year.

    Every player would chose the majors, most likely, over the minors, but doesn’t mean its the best for them going forward. Hughes didn’t want to go back down in 09 but it was likely a major factor in his 2011 fatigue.

  45. dogface March 15th, 2012 at 10:59 am

    Why would we want to give Phelps a grand total of 60 innings as a reward?

    ================================

    Because on this team, that’s the role he fits in. If he were in the farm system of a 2nd division team, maybe he’s up and in that rotation. He’s not, so you plug him in the role that best suits the team. Given a choice between 170 IP for the Nomadics or 60 IP for the NEW YORK YANKEES, I’m guessing Phelps happily chooses the latter.

  46. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Crawdaddy March 15th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    “Why would we want to give Phelps a grand total of 60 innings as a reward?”

    Because it beats going to SWB for the third straight year.

    ————————

    If they’re gonna put him in the pen, he should be allowed to pitch. Not that mop up work that Noesi was mostly given.

  47. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:02 am

    Given a choice between 170 IP for the Nomadics or 60 IP for the NEW YORK YANKEES, I’m guessing Phelps happily chooses the latter

    He could get 60 IP for the Yankees while also pitching enough for the Nomadics to actually maintain himself as a starter. If the Yankees used him smartly. The Yankees got 56 innings out of Noesi of a 4.5 ERA but he was pitching in mostly blow outs. Useful? Arguably. The right role for a guy that is pegged as a major league starter? Probably not.

  48. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 11:03 am

    Why not keep Phelps @ AAA until later in the season and then bring him up to help out of the pen ?

    That way we get the best of both worlds.

    Nah. Makes too much sense.

    ;)

  49. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    “Given a choice between 170 IP for the Nomadics or 60 IP for the NEW YORK YANKEES, I’m guessing Phelps happily chooses the latter.”

    And how does this help the 2013 Yankees? I thought this organization had a long term plan lol, that’s what everyone keeps telling me.

  50. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 15th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    MTU, I’m for keeping the guys down in the minors for as long as possible, without going past their expiration date. To me that ends up working out best for them and for the team.

  51. blake March 15th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    Id rather Phelps start every day in the minors than throw 60 meaningless big league innings.

  52. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    “I don’t buy this at all, randy. I think they handled his rehab poorly and had him pitching in the ML before he was ready, but what did they do to devalue his role while he was healthy? Nothing.”

    rich in nj-

    get my email from pat m or sj44 or from chad.

    i’ll send you what i know in an email , but not on the blog .

    i’m assuming that you know that neil allen totally transformed wang in the space of a few weeks into a sinker baller after thinking he had the right arm slot for it.

    neil and i are very close friends. trust me when i say there is a story behind the story.
    peter abraham and i exchanged many emails about the behind the scenes stuff the yankees were doing with wang.

    reporters do not write about everything they know. it was common knowledge that the yankees were not happy with wang throwing so many sinkers. the problem that they had was only one guy really understood the sinker that wang threw and it was neil allen and cashman fired him.

    luckily guidry was a close friend of guess who so let’s just say he kept coaching wang much longer than cashman thought. wang himself did not understand how he threw the sinker, so he need constant tuning up and reminding of what he was told in the first place that made the ball sink.

    part of the deal was of course the grip, but the thing that wang couldn’t hold onto was that he had to shirten his strde to make the ball sink- almost a slide step. this took a few miles an hour off his fastball but created the sink. wang could not feel when he was lengthening his stride, so he had to be constant reminded to shorten it.

    when the yankees were wanting him to throw other pitches, more four seam fastballs, and more sliders, wang would gravitate back to his old long stride which would hurt the sinker. wang could have thrown a four seamer and a slider off the shorter stride and this would have been better, but he like any athlete had muscle memory on these pitches that made him lengten his stride to what it was his whole life.

    the problem was the sinker depended on the shorter stride that allen taught him.

    now i have no idea what his new pitching coach is teaching him with the sinker. i know the guy who is a part time official scorer for the nats and orioles, and he asked the present pitching last summer if he’s talked to allen about wang and he said no.

    he also said he didn’t think the stride was a factor. i did read that the pitching coach was encouraging wang ti throw the sinker as much as possible which should help.

    this is not what the yankees were telling wang. they wanted him to mix in other pitches more.

    wang is a product of people outside him. had he never met neil allen , he most likely would have never had a sinker ball . i do not know if they have any contact now as i haven’t talked with neil in two years.

    i kind of doubt it because of allen’s high profile rays triple a pitching coach job.

  53. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 11:05 am

    “The Yankees got 56 innings out of Noesi of a 4.5 ERA but he was pitching in mostly blow outs. Useful? Arguably. The right role for a guy that is pegged as a major league starter? Probably not.”

    Yep.

    Hopefully this is moot and they just let Phelps start in AAA until late in the season.

  54. BIG AL March 15th, 2012 at 11:05 am

    Some folks here either have blinders on, or their vision of our “Propects” is not in line with reality.

    The “B’s” will not be ready for at least another season, their control has been, and continues to be a concern.

    Mitchell and Warren are far more ready for a roll in NY, as of now.

    Its time to stop believing all the hype, and simply open your eyes to the fact that the FO already knows, (thus the trade for Pineda), our prospects are simply that, prospects, and not ready for the show.

    I’m more concerned with how our OF and IF prospects are coming along than our pitching at this point in time.

    But, what do I know. :)

  55. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:07 am

    One way or another, Yankees pitcher Hector Noesi will be a starter next season even if he has to start the season in the minor leagues, according to Chad Jennings of the Journal News.
    “I have no intention of Noesi doing (using Noesi as a reliever) again,” Brian Cashman told Jennings. “I just think Noesi is a starter, so one way or another, that’s where he needs to be. I don’t want to waste his time as a long man if we can avoid it.”

    “Send Phelps to the pen!” If they want to turn someone into a reliever, go ahead with DJ Mitchell since so many have him pegged for that role anyways.

  56. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:09 am

    The Yankees used 9 starters last year. Let Phelps get some of those starts. You put him in the pen and then the time comes for a spot start and ‘phelps isn’t stretched out so we’ve signed Sergio Mitre to make this start’. Happened with Noesi (Not the sidney ponson stuff, but he missed out on spot starts). Happened with Hughes as well.

  57. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 11:10 am

    One can see a shift in the perception of Phelps already taking hold based on the last 2 weeks.

    I think he’d always been regarded as being potentially rotation-worthy (even if, before the last few days, that was back of the rotation), but I think some are now looking at him through a new lense.

    Phelps, unless I’m off base, was regarded prior to this spring as a depth-type pitcher in the Yankees system – a guy with limited stuff but excellent command and smarts that could be a useful ML pitcher somewhere, probably MORE useful in systems other than the yankees’.

    In the Yankees system, that sort of pitcher often profiles to the bullpen. Not sure I agree with this perception that the long-man in the bullpen can’t be manned by a younger player. That is what depth is for – quality at the ML level.

    Like I say, I’m getting the inkling this morning’s debate is at least partly due to people maybe reconsidering Phelp’s ceiling, which, unless I miss the point of the article that started it, the Yankees might be doing as well.

  58. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 11:11 am

    “I’m against the yo-yo process too.”

    me too, but i want to be on record that this doesn’t mean i don’t like yo-yo ma.

  59. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 15th, 2012 at 11:11 am

    Big Al – TOTALLY agree with your post.

    The problem on this forum is that a lot of the posters get to be like excited puppies when it comes to prospects they like and they virtually demand that the kids get to the big show, probably so they can see them.

    Sadly, if the kids don’t perform according to their expectations, they are ready to throw them out like yesterday’s trash.*

    Loyalty doesn’t seem to be a huge factor with the “hungrier” fans here, though I guess you can see how that would go hand-in-hand.

    If Yankee history has taught us anything it should be that you do NOT bring a prospect up until that prospect has had ample time down below to develop what he needs to develop.

    * – Mark Melancon is an example.

  60. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    “And how does this help the 2013 Yankees? I thought this organization had a long term plan lol, that’s what everyone keeps telling me.”

    Doesn’t 2012 count too?

  61. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 15th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    I’ve seen Yo Yo Ma peform and I’ve met him. That was before he really got big.

  62. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Stuckey,

    I’ve been on Phelps & Warren as potential quality pitchers since last year, hence my aversion to the pineda deal. This debate is more about the right use of prospects. Nova and Noesi were both ‘depth-type’ pitchers. One was given ~40 innings in a nice way while maintaining a starter regimen. The other was ‘wasted’ and had to have Cashman proclaiming no more BS for him. Then he got traded (which is also an acceptable use of these types of pitchers).

    Bullpen pitchers should be failed starters, or guys that lack true quality MLB starter upside. Right now Phelps has pretty good upside, and has for a while. He has been very good at every level. Relievers are worth less, they perform less. If the Yankees spot started Phelps, or made him a long man that actually got innings (4+ innings every 5 days? Atleast then he’d provide around 120 innings) it would be nice.

    But pitching in blow outs and not getting enough reps to work with isn’t good.

  63. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:17 am

    The problem on this forum is that a lot of the posters get to be like excited puppies when it comes to prospects they like and they virtually demand that the kids get to the big show, probably so they can see them.

    Sadly, if the kids don’t perform according to their expectations, they are ready to throw them out like yesterday’s trash.*

    Huge lohud fallacy. Who here threw any prospect out in the trash that they were eager to see after a little bit of adversity?

  64. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    I really want to meet the invisible sect of LOHUD patrons that is constantly cited as ready to stick the dagger in the back of anyone they want to see play.

  65. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Trisha-

    Making sure a young player is fully prepared for their role in the bigs is best possible thing.

    In the past that has not always been the case.

    Like I’ve said earlier I like to think the Yankees have learned from their mistakes and are on the path to doing better in that regard.

    If I am to trust that hypothesis I have to watch to see how they handle things from here on out.

    There is some evidence to suggest that the change has been successfully accomplished.

    I hope that’s the case. Anything else would be a total waste.

    The Yankees have made a huge bet on their young Pitching.

    Part of that is developing it correctly from here on out.

  66. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 11:21 am

    Good morning Al.

  67. J. Alfred Prufrock March 15th, 2012 at 11:24 am

    We don’t know what they would have done on Pineda. They were after Felix. I may not agree, but I get that. He’s close to a sure thing, young, and although not cheap, they can afford him if they want.
    ///

    Yea, I also get the conventional ‘wisdom’ that you ‘of course’ just drop your pants for Hernandez, but I don’t agree at all – not if it was going to cost Montero/Banuelos/Betances, and perhaps even then some.

    What I understand is that it mollifes the John Harpers and Bill Maddens of the world, as well as that mainstream fan who has been screaming for two years about ‘getting King Felix’ into pinstripes and all will be well, but who also has zero curiosity about just who’s kicking around in our own system.

    The Yankees know they would have had universal carte blanche on that one, and yet, it would have been a big risk to give up all that for a pitcher who could blow his arm out, having already averaged about 216 innings per year over the last six seasons. I know I am in an extreme minority, but at least Pineda’s virtually mileage free. Now, he may be more fragile, but if he doesn’t wind up on the DL, it’s fair to assume his best years – whatever that may mean for him – are ahead of him. Even though the King is just 26 in April, I don’t think we can make the same assumption.

    Of course, I was not in favor of the trade, since we are loaded with pitching at AAA and in the rotation; just saying I was never in favor of trading Montero for a pitcher (not Felix or even Kershaw, though the latter would make greater sense, given the ballpark), but that at least Pineda is a fresh arm with upside. The idea that we should have just automatically given up TWO fresh arms with elite upside, PLUS Montero, for Felix, to me is beyond ridiculous; but it would have been gotten a virtual 100 percent approval rate from all corners.

    This is why when folks use others’ endorsement of the actual trade that occurred as some kind of leverage to “prove” it was some kind of no-brainer, genius move, I am, well, unmoved.

  68. blake March 15th, 2012 at 11:25 am

    “One can see a shift in the perception of Phelps already taking hold based on the last 2 weeks”

    I’ve always thought he was pretty good….look it up if you want ;)

  69. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 11:25 am

    stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    “And how does this help the 2013 Yankees? I thought this organization had a long term plan lol, that’s what everyone keeps telling me.”

    Doesn’t 2012 count too?
    ——————————–

    Of course… but we have 6 starters already in the majors. Why would we want to mess with a guy we might need next season in Phelps/Warren/Mitchell by limiting their innings in a mop up pen role like we did with Noesi? There’s a possibility we don’t resign Garcia and/or KURODA, right? So…. we’ll likely still be on the hunt for a starter next off season as well. It’d be nice to have some solid in house options that are prepared for 150-200 innings of work, IMO.

  70. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:26 am

    The shift in perception is in the media. So now he is getting some dap from scouts and the press, so the Yankees of course want to put him in the pen :twisted:

  71. J. Alfred Prufrock March 15th, 2012 at 11:28 am

    *I should add, two fresh arms with elite upside who are already in AAA.

  72. blake March 15th, 2012 at 11:28 am

    A trade for Felix Hernandez would have totally be against everything the Yanks say they are trying to do right now…..it would have gutted the system AND added 20 million to the payroll……totally against the 189 mantra.

  73. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 11:32 am

    “Good morning Al.”

    F U AL :)

    … i hadn’t had a chance to get back to you after one of your last posts .

  74. pat March 15th, 2012 at 11:32 am

    “Who here threw any prospect out in the trash that they were eager to see after a little bit of adversity?”

    The IPK fan club thinned dramatically after a few bad games. Even his postgame interviews were scrutinized.

  75. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    “Why would we want to mess with a guy we might need next season in Phelps/Warren/Mitchell by limiting their innings in a mop up pen role like we did with Noesi?”

    Shame, I’m fairly certain one of the major philosophical divides on this issue is whether or not pitching on the ML team, under the guidance of the ML pitching coach, gaining experience pitching to ML pitchers, constitutes “messing” with him.

    People have valid questions about innings as it pertains to innings limits year-to-year, but I’ve yet to see any conclusive evidence to suggest ML bullpen work is detrimental to “development”.

    It seems we have a lot of opinions on the matter (which is fine) but not a lot of answers on the topic.

  76. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:35 am

    The IPK fan club thinned dramatically after a few bad games. Even his postgame interviews were scrutinized.

    Yea but is anyone like that here now? If the comment is made as part of this discussion, it seems aimed at the posters having it.

  77. BIG AL March 15th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    MTU -

    Good morning. Got to run out soon, but, just wanted to drop my 2 cents, so to speak.

    JF -

    Joba is an example of a prospect fans were all too ready to flush down the drain, and to some extent Hughes falls into that same category.

    Later folks, got to run, y’all have a very nice day.

  78. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 11:38 am

    I really want to meet the invisible sect of LOHUD patrons that is constantly cited as ready to stick the dagger in the back of anyone they want to see play.
    ———————–

    :lol:

  79. GreenBeret7 March 15th, 2012 at 11:38 am

    MTU March 15th, 2012 at 10:56 am
    The Yankees have made a fairly substantial bet on their young Pitching.

    If they fail to develop it well from here on out they are simply dumber than dog snot.

    They may have made some mistakes in the past but I have to believe they are no longer that dumb.

    Prove me right Cashman.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Cashman’s only real mistake in dealing with pitching was not making sure that wang was healthy and strong before restarting him a couple of years ago. He made the same mistake with Hughes last year. Hughes should have started the season on the DL, not in the rotation. Hughes problem was the 90 innings increase from 2009 to 2010.

  80. BIG AL March 15th, 2012 at 11:38 am

    randy l. -

    Is there a problem where you can give it, but can’t take it?

    For an old man, which I admit I am, it might be time for you to grow up. :)

  81. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:39 am

    If we’re just talking about ‘fans’ as in any new york fan anywhere I don’t know why you bother. LOHUD isn’t every fan everywhere, we’re individual people that have pretty clear opinions based on a history of posting. So there isn’t really a need to keep making these LOHUD fallacies that confuse 1 group with the other.

  82. J. Alfred Prufrock March 15th, 2012 at 11:42 am

    Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:17 am
    The problem on this forum is that a lot of the posters get to be like excited puppies when it comes to prospects they like and they virtually demand that the kids get to the big show, probably so they can see them.

    Sadly, if the kids don’t perform according to their expectations, they are ready to throw them out like yesterday’s trash.*

    Huge lohud fallacy. Who here threw any prospect out in the trash that they were eager to see after a little bit of adversity?
    ///

    I’m out the door, but I’m curious, too, who these mysterious posters might be. Who, indeed?

  83. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 11:43 am

    “This is why when folks use others’ endorsement of the actual trade that occurred as some kind of leverage to “prove” it was some kind of no-brainer, genius move, I am, well, unmoved.”

    I’m not sure anyone has.

    The point about reception of the trade is sometimes cited in response to the unequivocal assertion that Montero is destined to be a great ML bat almost without fail, and that anyone who doesn’t see this is idiot.

    The point being made is simply that yours is in fact a minority position. It just provides context and prospective. Nothing more.

    I don’t believe anyone has proclaimed it a “genuis” move. The only camp taking an extreme conclusive position before either players suits up for their new team is yours.

    Being an understandable transaction and being a genius one are two entirely different scenarios, the latter being one almost entirely of your invention.

    That you invented it, continue to present it as representing anyone’s position simply because it’s the one you prefer to debate against, and continually ignore repeated statements that the trade CAN certainly NOT work out in the Yankees favor is very, very telling.

  84. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 11:44 am

    “Is there a problem where you can give it, but can’t take it?”

    nah, you’re just a a hole who’s a back stabber type.

  85. CompassRosy March 15th, 2012 at 11:44 am

    MTU says:
    March 15, 2012 at 10:11 am
    ::::Rosy-

    If you’re out there.

    I think you’re gonna find that Noesi is way better than a #5 starter in your rotation.

    JMO.:::

    Hi MTU ~
    Ah, I think you may be referring to my 2013 rotation projection (I don’t normally project, it was in response to Stoneburner). Anyhoo…. I agree that Noesi will likely be higher than a number 5 this season (for as long as he holds out) but, if any of the big three (or now, big four) make it, he’ll likely move toward the back.

  86. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 11:45 am

    People have valid questions about innings as it pertains to innings limits year-to-year, but I’ve yet to see any conclusive evidence to suggest ML bullpen work is detrimental to “development”.

    ———————–

    Does Phil Hughes count?

    I’m being a bit facetious of course, but I’m sure some of the smarter people on the forum could at least present pretty significant evidence that a jump in innings from season A to B can be detrimental to a pitcher.

    I get the idea that there are intangibles guys learn by being with the big club. And that’s where I’d like to see all of our AAA guys. But having any of those guys in AAA pitch the innings they had Noesi pitch last season (blow outs, no pressure, usually one inning of work at a time, etc) just doesn’t strike me as a proper development plan.

    They want to be under $189, right? They better make sure they get two of those guys in AAA to hit. So again, based on that logic (the Yankees plan), why would it be beneficial to have any of them get 56 meaningless innings in the majors? Now if you want them to get 56 innings at the end of the year, after they’ve already been starting for most of the season until lets say around August, that’s a totally different scenario. You’re still letting them get the bulk of their work in before having them get all that ‘intangible’ experience of being with the big club without sacrificing their development.

  87. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:45 am

    nah, you’re just a a hole who’s a back stabber type.

    Caesar you ain’t.

  88. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 11:47 am

    I’m out the door, but I’m curious, too, who these mysterious posters might be. Who, indeed?

    ////

    Who has proclaimed the trade a “no-brainer, genius” move?

    Who, indeed?

  89. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 11:48 am

    Rosy-

    I think you are underestimating Noesi a bit.

    He is very good.

    In that large park of yours he might be even better.

    Think you might be in a for a pleasant surprise.

    He’s used to pitching against much tougher competition too.

    :)

  90. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 11:49 am

    “Caesar you ain’t.”

    no school today?

  91. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 11:52 am

    “Does Phil Hughes count?”

    Anecdotally, sure.

    “but I’m sure some of the smarter people on the forum could at least present pretty significant evidence that a jump in innings from season A to B can be detrimental to a pitcher. ”

    I understood the more common wisdom to be it was more of a matter of a one season jump in regards to CAREER highs, and not so much season-to-season, but I may be mistaken.

    “why would it be beneficial to have any of them get 56 meaningless innings in the majors? You’re still letting them get the bulk of their work in before having them get all that ‘intangible’ experience of being with the big club without sacrificing their development.”

    All we’re doing is restating the premise Shame. Whether or not there is any sacrifice is still the outstanding question.

  92. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 15th, 2012 at 11:52 am

    “Huge lohud fallacy. Who here threw any prospect out in the trash that they were eager to see after a little bit of adversity?”

    You want names? You want me to research lohud and name names? I will.

    I was talking to Al, by the way, about posters b*tching about getting players up and then kicking them in the face when they don’t perform. It was a general comment, though if you’re getting defensive about it, you may have been one of them? I don’t know. But there were a slew of posters who flipped out like nutcases about getting Melancon up and then discarded him like trash when he didn’t perform to their liking.

    ********

    About IPK – I was definitely one who couldn’t get him away from the Yankees quickly enough – but I never lobbied for him to come up to the big game. After 5 losses in a row, I had seen enough.

  93. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:53 am

    no school today?

    Well now that you’re here school is in session, Randy! You’re going to get schooled. School.

  94. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 15th, 2012 at 11:54 am

    MTU – absolutely agree on developing the kids. I hope they find a way to do it.

    ********

    Going to make a sick call. I have the DVR going in case I’m not back in time for the game.

    Anything posted to me will be responded to, if a response is necessary, when I return.

  95. dogface March 15th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    nah, you’re just a a hole who’s a back stabber type.

    =========================

    Who talks like this?

    It should be “…just AN a hole…”

  96. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    let’s meet at some baseball field so you can teach me what you know.

  97. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    About IPK – I was definitely one who couldn’t get him away from the Yankees quickly enough – but I never lobbied for him to come up to the big game. After 5 losses in a row, I had seen enough.

    Interesting, so perhaps you’re just thinking about similar posters such as yourself, rather than people that are actually looking forward to prospects who do this pretend 180 to then hate them. Because I’ve seen no compelling evidence that the latter exists. But this is the reason the lohud fallacy was created, because people keep confusing the first group with the second.

    Chances are, the people that were kicking Melancon when he was down were not cheering for him to get a shot in the first place. I know you won’t find me in there, which is why I always bring it up (would seem weird to call you out if there was a likelihood that I would be one of the people you’d cite). I defended Melancon like crazy.

  98. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 11:57 am

    “Who talks like this?”

    someone who likes to be straight with people.

    it cuts out the BS.

  99. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 11:59 am

    it cuts out the BS.

    Too bad its then pasted right into your mouth.

  100. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    “It should be “…just AN a hole…”

    oh, i see.

    “a” vs “an”

    you’re smart.

    you’ll figure it out :)

  101. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    “someone who likes to be straight with people.”

    Randy, how can we tell when you’re being straight with people and when you’re just being an acknowdged troll to get a reaction.

    Because you seem to want to reserve the right to switch positions based on how badly you get beat down?

    What’s the point of being straight if we can never tell if you’re actually being straight?

  102. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    “Too bad its then pasted right into your mouth.”

    what was the address of that field you wanted to teach some baseball at?

  103. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    “You want me to research lohud and name names? I will.”

    ———————

    :lol:

    Great line, trish!

  104. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    what was the address of that field you wanted to teach some baseball at?

    The same one where you want Stuckey to throw a baseball at your head. Its clear, having nothing left to fall back on, you desperately want to prove your athleticism to everyone. Its pretty funny.

  105. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    stuckey – I’d rather you respond to my last paragraph… it seems like Phelps/Warren/Mitchell should be able to get 56 innings in the majors without sacrificing any development. Why not take that route? Again.. if the Yankees have a plan then I don’t see a logic jump in assuming 2013 and 2014 should matter just as much as 2012.

  106. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    “Randy, how can we tell when you’re being straight with people…?”

    i’ll talk to you because you’re consistently negative. no pretenses there.

    you’re misguided about a baseball because you haven’t spent enough of your time on a baseball field but that’s neither here nor there.

    i prefer enemies to come right out and be honest about it.

    they’re just simply on the other team.

    the fake “hi y’all ” is weak.

    you’re a nice direct know -it- all- pain -in- the- a, but very honest about it.
    no problem there.

  107. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    oh damn, there’s that “a” problem again.
    too bad i didn’t care enough to be more careful :)

  108. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    I liked randy’s post about Neil Allen….

    Where’s Erin? We need a gossip break..

  109. pat March 15th, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    “Yea but is anyone like that here now? If the comment is made as part of this discussion, it seems aimed at the posters having it.”

    I don’t keep score of who is right or wrong here so I don’t know who bailed on IPK.

  110. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    “The same one where you want Stuckey to throw a baseball at your head. Its clear, having nothing left to fall back on, you desperately want to prove your athleticism to everyone.”

    jerkface and stuckey on a baseball field.

    now we’re talking :)

  111. RadioKev March 15th, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    When your minor league guys succeed on the big league level, their value increases. This applies to their work in the bull pen as well.

    If any of our young arms can make our team better, and it doesn’t adversely affect their growth, then it’s a no-brainer to get them involved. Look at Noesi – he had enough value to land us a legitimate high upside prospect. That probably wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t been our long man.

    I’m thinking Mitchell makes the most sense for that role, if not Garcia.

  112. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 12:11 pm

    I don’t keep score of who is right or wrong here so I don’t know who bailed on IPK.

    If you’re not keeping track then you probably should not try to tell everyone the score. Which is the point. The LOHUD fallacy is a long standing tradition of confusing those who you are talking to right now with a different group of people from back in the past.

    “Everyone is talking about David Phelps? Well they probably stabbed IPK in the back… after liking him a whole lot just like David Phelps!”

    Its never true.

  113. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    If any of our young arms can make our team better, and it doesn’t adversely affect their growth, then it’s a no-brainer to get them involved. Look at Noesi – he had enough value to land us a legitimate high upside prospect. That probably wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t been our long man.

    This is where the opinions diverge. Noesi has had a history of very good minor league success. From 2008 to 2010 he was a very good minor league starter. I don’t think his 1.5 WHIP or above average ERA (in the bullpen where it was even worse against average) had much to do with the Mariners liking him. It was probably his incredible minor league K:BB and other things.

    Is success in the majors simply not failing too hard?

  114. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Arodys Vizcaino off to Dr. Andrews, the fragility of young pitching

  115. RadioKev March 15th, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    I’m honestly surprised people are still hung up on Kennedy. Really? Don’t we all agree he wouldn’t be this successful in the AL East? And if Granderson puts up a couple more years like 2011, it’ll all be well worth it?

    We’ve got one of the star players in baseball in a premium position. That’s the most Kennedy ever did for us, and that’s fine. We created value, and traded that value. It’s going to happen again with this new crop.

  116. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 12:16 pm

    shame spencer-

    people spend so much time attacking each other that a lot of stuff that has value gets lost in the “i don’t like you” BS.

    i really think that’s why we don’t see many sj44 or CB type posters coming on here.

    i saw someone attacking yankeefeminista the other night because she actually was using her own eyes from watching players at games to make a judgement of the players.

    for some reason some people get very upset with people who get close to the action. i don’t know if it’s jealousy or what, but it’s a weird response.

  117. blake March 15th, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    “Look at Noesi – he had enough value to land us a legitimate high upside prospect. That probably wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t been our long man.”

    I don’t necessarily think him being a long man had anything to do with his trade value….I think his minor league track record and the fact that he was throwing 98 in winter ball was more of a factor…..but even if that’s true…..I still don’t like messing with a guys development and burning a year of service time to put them in an important role in the big leagues…..if you need the guy to throw important innings then fine….but its a waste to make then a mop up guy IMO

  118. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    “Arodys Vizcaino off to Dr. Andrews, the fragility of young pitching”

    Hence, the need to stockpile it.

  119. GreenBeret7 March 15th, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    The problem with innings jump isn’t pitching only 80 innings one year and jumping to starter the next like Noesi would do. It’s going from not pitching over a hundred innings for four year to 170 like Hughes did at the age he was. It’s not like a 30 year old pitcher such as CJ Wilson. That’s where the issues are.

  120. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    Kev-

    “We created value, and traded that value. It’s going to happen again with this new crop.”

    It’s inevitable.

    We can’t keep ‘em all. Just no room.

  121. blake March 15th, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    “Arodys Vizcaino off to Dr. Andrews, the fragility of young pitching”

    Probably why the Braves have kept him in the pen….

  122. RadioKev March 15th, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    This is where the opinions diverge. Noesi has had a history of very good minor league success. From 2008 to 2010 he was a very good minor league starter. I don’t think his 1.5 WHIP or above average ERA (in the bullpen where it was even worse against average) had much to do with the Mariners liking him. It was probably his incredible minor league K:BB and other things.

    Is success in the majors simply not failing too hard?
    ——–

    Jerkface,

    Sure, I’ll agree with that. But I’d bet playing in the bigs put Noesi on people’s radars. You could see the guy with your own eyes. I’m not saying that changes his results, but I think there’s a psychological effect.

  123. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 12:21 pm

    “stuckey – I’d rather you respond to my last paragraph… it seems like Phelps/Warren/Mitchell should be able to get 56 innings in the majors without sacrificing any development. Why not take that route? Again.. if the Yankees have a plan then I don’t see a logic jump in assuming 2013 and 2014 should matter just as much as 2012.”

    Shame, how are three starting pitchers getting over 150 innings combined (assuming you meant that).

    Even one getting 55-60 innings is no lock if there isn’t a significant injury (remember, the Yanks are 6 deep at the ML level) and assuming maybe the Yanks could be in a fight into and perhaps through September for the division crown?

    Which starter are you shutting down if none are injured?

  124. GreenBeret7 March 15th, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    pat March 15th, 2012 at 12:09 pm
    “Yea but is anyone like that here now? If the comment is made as part of this discussion, it seems aimed at the posters having it.”

    I don’t keep score of who is right or wrong here so I don’t know who bailed on IPK.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    pat, they’re the same ones that want hughes dumped for anything they can get.

  125. blake March 15th, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    Sure, I’ll agree with that. But I’d bet playing in the bigs put Noesi on people’s radars. You could see the guy with your own eyes. I’m not saying that changes his results, but I think there’s a psychological effect.”

    I can’t argue with that…..my issue is the reasoning for doing it though…..did the Yankees use Noesi last year to showcase him to other teams? Or did they just want him in the bullpen for some reason?

  126. dogface March 15th, 2012 at 12:22 pm

    Don’t we all agree he wouldn’t be this successful in the AL East?

    ===============================

    Do we? By extension, should we also assume Kuroda won’t be successful in the AL East?

  127. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    Teams who wish to further establish the value of their young players sometimes “showcase” them at the ML level.

    It’s hard to know exactly when they are doing that but it definitely takes place.

    Some prospects are for keeping. Some are for trading.

    Just the way it is.

  128. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    Randy, I’m not going to pretend I understood 80% of your response (the “hi y’all” thing is particularly indecipherable), but this I think I get.

    “you’re misguided about a baseball because you haven’t spent enough of your time on a baseball field but that’s neither here nor there.”

    It’s here and there.

    You don’t know anyone’s experience on a baseball field, other than your sound guess that yours extends level’s higher than most here.

    But I’ll ask again, if your experience by default puts you on a plateau that overcomes your rather limited critical thinking skills, what is your point of being here?

    Are you acknowledging you’re here just to remind people daily that your experience a lifetime ago gives you a free pass on saying really, really dumb things?

    I’m failing to see the point or appeal of that..?

  129. RadioKev March 15th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

    Or did they just want him in the bullpen for some reason?
    ——-

    The Yankees have a surplus of pitching and they have to choose how to use those resources. They wanted a quality long man like Aceves. A “mop up” man is a pretty negative out look on the role – If I’m a manager, I’d want all my guys to go out there and be able to throw quality innings.

  130. pat March 15th, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    “Don’t we all agree he wouldn’t be this successful in the AL East?”

    Just my opinion but I think the NY media freaks out players more than the competition of the AL East.

  131. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    The Yankees have a surplus of pitching and they have to choose how to use those resources. They wanted a quality long man like Aceves. A “mop up” man is a pretty negative out look on the role – If I’m a manager, I’d want all my guys to go out there and be able to throw quality innings.

    They may have wanted an Aceves, but they didn’t use him like one. Aceves didn’t get all the wins he did out of the pen by pitching in blowouts.

  132. blake March 15th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    “They wanted a quality long man like Aceves. A “mop up” man is a pretty negative out look on the role – If I’m a manager, I’d want all my guys to go out there and be able to throw quality innings.”

    How they used Noesi last year wasn’t really similar at all to how Aceves was used in 2009. Aceves threw lots of high leverage innings that season and with Boston last year…..Noesi didn’t throw hardly any innings that mattered at all…..I remember one extra inning game against the Orioles maybe where he made a difference……aside from that he was on mop up duty for the most part

  133. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    There are a certain portion of innings that should be doled out: Starting, closing, relief pitching in close games, medium leverage games, low leverage.

    I think low leverage (blowouts and otherwise) is a waste for quality guys like Phelps and Noesi if thats all they are going to get for an entire year. The Yankees spent a year of service time for a potentially good starter pitching him in blow outs.

    They could have got the same effect in a 4th of the time by using him in one of the spot starts, but they couldn’t because he was stuck in the pen. Thus a guy like Gordon gets signed off the phillies to make 2 starts.

  134. GreenBeret7 March 15th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    MTU, NYYs have three pitchers made for deciding which to trade and which to keep. Right now, DJ Mitchell is the best one for the spot starter/long relief for NYYs. Phelps is like Nova. a little less stuff than Warren. Just like Nova has a little less stuff than Noesi. The difference is that both Phelps and Nova had had to learn everything they can. Not saying that Noesi and Warren are lazy, but, they have the better stuff and not quite the need to work as hard to learn more. If one of the Warren/Phelps/Mitchell is traded, Warren had the biggest name and best stuff coming out of college. He’s the one that gets traded.

  135. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    I remember one extra inning game against the Orioles maybe where he made a difference

    Pretty sure that was his debut!

  136. RadioKev March 15th, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    pat March 15th, 2012 at 12:29 pm
    “Don’t we all agree he wouldn’t be this successful in the AL East?”

    Just my opinion but I think the NY media freaks out players more than the competition of the AL East.
    ———–

    Yeah, I’m not saying Kennedy didn’t have the make up to play here, I just think his results wouldn’t be AS impressive in the AL East. I just can’t see him pitching to a sub 3 ERA in this division.

  137. blake March 15th, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    Again my point is about what you’re using the prospect for….if you need them for a real role…..one that’s going to help you win games then fine……I just don’t like sticking them out there to pitch 60 innings in mostly already decided game situations…….you can sign Mitre to do that…..

  138. MG March 15th, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    I’ve only seen Phelps 1X (a couple of innings against the Sox the other night) but was very impressed-he’s got good stuff, threw harder than I expected, and has good command of both his fastball and breaking ball.

    He reminded me of Mike Mussina to some degree although I doubt he has the same level of ability.

    The Yankees are in a good position with their young pitching, hopefully they continue to nurture them and turn as many as possible into major league starters, either with the Yankees or with another team after a trade that brings the Yankees positional players that can contribute.

  139. pat March 15th, 2012 at 12:41 pm

    MLBNetwork: Watch LIVE at 1pm ET as Michael Pineda and the @Yankees face the @Nationals. This game is available in Yankees territory.

  140. blake March 15th, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    “Yeah, I’m not saying Kennedy didn’t have the make up to play here, I just think his results wouldn’t be AS impressive in the AL East. I just can’t see him pitching to a sub 3 ERA in this division.”

    Nah…he wouldn’t….but the team he played for would score more runs as well…..there are more runs scored in the AL in general so while a pitchers numbers may be worse…..it doesn’t necessarily mean they will pitch worse relative to the run scoring environment.

  141. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 12:44 pm

    GB-

    Thanks for your take.

  142. RadioKev March 15th, 2012 at 12:46 pm

    Maybe my memory is just hazy on Noesi. The results of the games he appeared are 15-15. It’s hard to say he was MOSTLY low leverage with those results.

    In either case, I’m fine with the principle. You’ve got to pick and choose what you do with your resources. Noesi vs Mitre in the pen? I’d take Noesi, personally.

  143. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    “Shame, how are three starting pitchers getting over 150 innings combined (assuming you meant that). ”

    I meant one of the three. Sorry I should have made that more clear, that’s why I put them as Phelps/Warren/Mitchell instead of Phelps, Warren, and Mitchell.

    And to respond to your point, even if there was not an injury to the starting rotation that’s an instance where putting young arms in the bullpen makes sense to me. In situations late in the season where they have already pitched over 100 innings at least as a starter. Then, you can give them a taste of the bigs without jeopardizing their development for the following season.

    It was also pointed out we needed 9 starters last season. The likelihood is that won’t change this year. 162 games is a lot. We’re going to need people to be ready to spot start.

  144. MTU March 15th, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    time to walk the Mops.

    Later.

  145. Shame Spencer March 15th, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    “They could have got the same effect in a 4th of the time by using him in one of the spot starts, but they couldn’t because he was stuck in the pen. Thus a guy like Gordon gets signed off the phillies to make 2 starts.”

    And this won’t work with their plan to be very budget conscious going forward… which should be incentive to leave the AAA guys to develop.

    Phelps/Warren/Mitchell’s innings don’t really matter to me, personally. But they should probably matter to an organization hoping to have a very cheap starting rotation in the near future.

  146. randy l. March 15th, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    “But I’ll ask again, if your experience by default puts you on a plateau that overcomes your rather limited critical thinking skills, what is your point of being here?”

    “Limited critical thinking skills”?

    Actually I do admit a mental flaw in talking about baseball with someone like you.

    There are people on the blog who have played a lot or watched up close a lot.

    There are also more than a few who understand who mantle was as a baseball player
    That alone is worth coming on here

  147. GreenBeret7 March 15th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    MTU March 15th, 2012 at 12:44 pm
    GB-

    Thanks for your take.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    No problem. all three have followed the same path for 3-4 years. Phelps just seems to be more of a thinker on the mound…the sort that can invent on the fly during a game. The “lesser” of the three has a nastier combination of pitches and that’s Mitchell…pretty good fastball that’s getting better, a bowling ball sinker, curve and a very good change-up. Apparently, he’s now learning a cutter. That may be too good to pass up as a reliever, but, still, he’s the best suited for the role (to start innings).

  148. blake March 15th, 2012 at 12:51 pm

    Jon Heyman already has his story ready in case Pineda doesn’t hit 95 on the gun today.

  149. blake March 15th, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    Radio,

    Yea obviously in a vacuum Id rather have Noesi than Mitre….but you’re not developing Mitre or considering his future…..

  150. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    Maybe my memory is just hazy on Noesi. The results of the games he appeared are 15-15. It’s hard to say he was MOSTLY low leverage with those results.

    The end result win or loss isn’t how leverage is decided. If he only pitched when the yankees were losing or winning by a lot, then he was used in low leverage. And that is the case.

  151. blake March 15th, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    That 15-15 record when Noesi pitched probably indicates that he pitched in equal amounts of blow out wins and blow out losses :)

  152. Duh Innings March 15th, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    Time for Lohud to get rid of comments and create messageboards cuz there’s too much back-and-forth between essentially only 3 to 5 posters.

    A board for each:

    New York Yankees
    Minor League Yankees
    MLB In General
    Rants & Raves

    If posts in R&R exceed posts in NYY, get rid of R&R and clamp down on it in NYY.

  153. Stoneburner March 15th, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    i saw someone attacking yankeefeminista the other night because she actually was using her own eyes from watching players at games to make a judgement of the players.

    for some reason some people get very upset with people who get close to the action. i don’t know if it’s jealousy or what, but it’s a weird response.

    *********

    Naaah – it is the “I am apart of this know it all prospects” club that is thing that is off putting – it is fine if you say you went to games and made some observations – but saying that Jose Ramirez has a plus changeup – when the kid is only in single A – and then acting as if you are the one discovering the prospect b/c no one ever heard of it – it is like a tv show that has a cult following – and then the tv show hits the mainstream (i.e., graduates to the majors) and then the cult followers act as if they have some special entitlement or insight – no – it is just the show moved to a more reasonable time for everyone to watch it and day of the week. . . .

  154. stuckey March 15th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    “There are people on the blog who have played a lot or watched up close a lot.”

    And you know I’m not among them how?

    “There are also more than a few who understand who mantle was as a baseball player
    That alone is worth coming on here.”

    I think I understand Mantle as much as someone was born after he retired can. Again, I’m sure the AARP has some forums somewhere where you can talk baseball if feeling more comfortable with someone your own age is a factor.

  155. RadioKev March 15th, 2012 at 1:02 pm

    blake March 15th, 2012 at 12:53 pm
    Radio,

    Yea obviously in a vacuum Id rather have Noesi than Mitre….but you’re not developing Mitre or considering his future…..
    ———-

    I know, I guess point is with either choice, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. I’m fine with the Yankees choice.

  156. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 1:05 pm

    Why the crusade against Jose Ramirez’s changeup?

  157. RadioKev March 15th, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    The end result win or loss isn’t how leverage is decided. If he only pitched when the yankees were losing or winning by a lot, then he was used in low leverage. And that is the case.
    ————-

    Jerkface, how is that the case? I’m looking at the innings he pitched, and it seems like he was used in plenty of situations? I’m not a baseball reference pro so maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see where you’re coming from.

    My point is, you’re painting a very black and white picture here…which isn’t the case.

  158. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 1:07 pm

    Stoneburners inquisition on opinions is bordering on crazy.

  159. RadioKev March 15th, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    OK, I’ll count through – hell, why not?

    Six of the wins we he pitched in were won by 5 or more Runs. Nine of the wins he pitched in were won by less than 5 Runs.

    Six of the losses he pitched in were lost by 5 or more Runs. Nine of the losses he pitched in were lost by less than 5 Runs.

  160. Bret The Hitman March 15th, 2012 at 1:13 pm

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  161. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Jerkface, how is that the case? I’m looking at the innings he pitched, and it seems like he was used in plenty of situations? I’m not a baseball reference pro so maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see where you’re coming from.

    His average leverage index is .82. 1 is average. Below 1 is ‘low pressure’ above 1 is high pressure.

    He made 28 relief appearances. Here is when he entered the game

    Tied: 3
    Within 1: 6 (half trailing)
    Within 2: 3 (2 trailing)
    Within 3: 3 (all trailing)
    Within 4: 2
    Within 5: 5
    Greater than 5: 6

  162. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    All the games he entered when it was tied were extra innings relief appearances. He was the last option in the pen, which isn’t very good.

  163. RadioKev March 15th, 2012 at 1:15 pm

    What’s the average average leverage index for a long man?

  164. GreenBeret7 March 15th, 2012 at 1:16 pm

    So, Stuckley, you’re now against having anyone one here above your age of 15? Do you feel threatened by them? It seems like there are a few jackasses on here like that. Strangely, almost all seem to be the illegitimate children of Bill James. Perhaps it’s you that should find a site that caters to your age group…like Romper Room.

  165. Jerkface March 15th, 2012 at 1:19 pm

    What’s the average average leverage index for a long man?

    Probably not very high. Which is part of the reason why using him for so few innings on the year AND in such low leverage isn’t a good idea. He didn’t do many long man type things, he made lots of 1 IP outings. But he wasn’t utilized like Aceves.

  166. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 15th, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    “so perhaps you’re just thinking about similar posters such as yourself, rather than people that are actually looking forward to prospects who do this pretend 180 to then hate them.”

    WRONG.

    “Because I’ve seen no compelling evidence that the latter exists”

    Which of course in your mind means that it couldn’t exist.

    “Chances are, the people that were kicking Melancon when he was down were not cheering for him to get a shot in the first place.”

    WRONG.

    Anything else you want to get wrong?

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