Hughes takes next turn in rotation competition
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 26, 2012 
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There are 10 spring training days left on the schedule. The 11th day is an off day, and 12 days from now, the Yankees will open their regular season against the Rays. That’s not a lot of time – two more turns through the rotation — and by then, the team plans to have six starters narrowed down to five.
“I think we still need to see more,” Joe Girardi said yesterday. “I think everyone needs to see more, and we’ll continue to look at it. You’d like to be able to (choose a rotation), but we don’t have to rush into it so we’ll probably sit down and talk about it sometime next week as a group, but just continue to observe right now.”
This afternoon, Phil Hughes will make his next spring start in a minor league game. Up to this point, he’s been just as good as — if not better than — anyone else in the competition. His arm strength has returned, his offspeed pitches have been effective, and the results have been consistent. Hughes has been sharp, looking very much like a pitcher out to prove he deserves his spot back.
“I know what we’ll get from Phil Hughes if he’s healthy,” Brian Cashman said last week.
Does that mean Hughes has a leg up? Do the Yankees have a leader board already in mind?
“I could go back and forth right now,” Giradi said. “I really could, (and) we do because that’s what we see.”
Associated Press photo
“It’s not right to send a guy down to screw him out of future money. The Yanks have not done that in the past and shouldn’t start now.”
Teams do it all the time….whether ifs right or not is a different discussion but with the new CBA putting limitations on spending I don’t fault teams for exploiting obvious loopholes……
That said….in this case it wouldn’t be soley to save money….there are other reasons including the velocity did and development of his CU…..not saying they should definitely do it….just that they should probably consider it as an option
“Does that mean Hughes has a leg up? Do the Yankees have a leader board already in mind?”
Yes and yes…..
All the starters have pitched pretty well this spring….Nova’s numbers are ugly but he’s actually looked pretty good to me his last two starts….so this decision is going to be based on where the Yanks see these guys in the big picture….
nova’s era looks ugly because of some home runs.
he hasn’t pitched badly.
Here’s a few things we know :
- Freddy Garcia and Kuroda will not be a big part of the Yankees future.
- Nova handles adversity well.
- AP’s status as a viable starter is undetermined.
- This is a critical year for Phil Hughes.
- Michael Pineda’s velocity is down so far this Spring.
- All 3 young guys have options.
- We have no idea how Pineda would take a demotion.
- Freddy Garcia tends to be a known quantity.
Put it all together and what do you get ?
Oh.
And I almost forgot.
You cannot divide 7 into 5 evenly.
And fractions are not allowed.
ERA BAA WHIP so far among starters:
Hughes 2.03/.220/0.98
Garcia 2.92/.213/1.14
Kuroda 3.07/.246/1.16
Pineda 3.31/.283/1.47
Sabathia 4.50/.333/1.63
Nova 6.86/.280/1.22
Maybe Sabathia gets traded!
It is a conundrum and you can make a case for demoting someone who has options, but I’d hate to see it if it’s solely based on saving future $$$ on a young player.
To me tyhe choice comes down to trading Garcia or putting Hughes or Nova in the pen. Hughes has had his best success there and it would make the pen flipping awesome, but he’s looked really good as a starter this spring.
My decision would be to peddle Freddy for a young, toolsy corner OF. The Yanks can include someone from the AAA rotation plus Dickerson/Maxwell to increase the quality of the prospect.
Link to study all ST stats so far:
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....r+pitching
“Put it all together and what do you get ?”
the red sox are pissed.
the yankees are so loaded they don’t know who to pick from.
the only thing that’s loaded on the red sox is bobby jenks after hitting two cars at a strip club and driving away from the scene of the accident highly intoxicated.
YT-
Makes sense based on the #’s this Spring.
Who would want him though.
Morning LoHudders
My guess is Garcia will be heading for the hills relatively soon. What they end up doing when Andy is ready I have absolutely no idea.
randy-
Breaks my heart to hear the Red Sux Nation is pissed.
I agree. Garcia is the one to go. I’m sure they’ll be exploring the trade market over the last 10 days of ST to gauge interest. Cannot justify sending down Pineda or Hughes or Nova. They are the future and it is NOW!!!
“Breaks my heart to hear the Red Sux Nation is pissed.”
even trisha will be crying tears for them they are so dysfunctional right now.
…maybe not
The 9:16 post is the best Randy post all ST
Supposedly Freddy was already offered to the Marlins and they were not interested.
Would Garcia prefer to be traded as opposed to being put in the Pen ?
You’d have to think so.
Question is, “Do the Yankees want to put Garcia in the Pen ?”
If Freddy is to be moved now it requires his consent.
My decision would be to peddle Freddy for a young, toolsy corner OF.
—————————————————
86w183-
Good morning. Agree. Any options in mind?
I had one that might work.
Lorenzo Cain of the Royals. They just obtained speedster OF’er, Jason Boirgeois, from the Astros, and really need starting pitching to compete in that division.
Garcia, plus one of Phelps, Warren, Mitchell, or 2 other minor leaguers that are out of options.
Any other teams in need of starting pitching that could use Freddy?
randy-
Sounds like he was involved in some “high Jenks”.
Or is that “high jinks”.
oh well.
The yankees just tried to trade garcia.
the only thing that’s loaded on the red sox is bobby jenks after hitting two cars at a strip club and driving away from the scene of the accident highly intoxicated.
—————————————————-
That’s what happens when you ban beer in the locker room.
Villa Nova-Ya March 26th, 2012 at 8:59 am
randy l -
I’m a big Pettitte fan. I think he can bring a lot to the table. But he was approached in December, and said no. As much as I like having a healthy productive Andy Pettitte, I’m not so sure I like that he took it for granted that if he said he was ready to pitch for them, they’d say okay.
As I’ve said, my opinions sometimes contradict themselves.
To me, there are nuances in every situation (and I know that discussing those nuances here only get one in trouble, especially semantically, and lead to being called a “fence sitter” LOL )
—————————————————————————————
From what I remember from interviews after Andy signed he wasn’t sure if he could come back or wanted to when Cashman first offered a contract.
I think he didn’t want to take the contract and then not be able to pitch.
He also talked about how much of a mental grind it is to pitch which I think he needed to be sure he was ready for that.
So based on that I don’t think he took it for granted as much as he wanted to be sure he could physically and mentally do it.
YT-
Nice try.
That combo isn’t netting you Cain.
You’re more “able” than that.
If the Yankees trade Garcia he’s going to the NL IMO.
The Braves would be an excellent landing spot.
Two different view points on Pineda by two different writers/papers. You pick ‘em. Borderline hysteria or common sense
you have the borderline hysteria approach of George King and the common sense approach of Marc Carig.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....um=twitter
or the Mutts.
MTU-
I’m all out of “ables”
http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....witterfeed
YT-
Never Man !
You’re a fountain of possibilities.
GB-
I go with Carig.
King is a serf.
GreenBeret7 March 26th, 2012 at 9:31 am
Two different view points on Pineda by two different writers/papers. You pick ‘em. Borderline hysteria or common sense
you have the borderline hysteria approach of George King and the common sense approach of Marc Carig.
———————————————————————-
Lets go for hysteria.
That generates more posts.
If one of the starters does indeed get sent down, I don’t think it makes much difference whether it’s AAA or AA as far as getting the work in. It would be the travel, so, I think he’d go to trenton, just to work.
GB-
Thanks for the link. I go with Carig and Russell Martin:
“I thought he was just a guy who threw hard with a nasty breaking ball,” said catcher Russell Martin. “But he knows how to pitch.”
Martin praised Pineda’s changeup, a pitch he threw sparingly in Seattle. He talked about how when he called for the slider, Pineda would decide on his own, based on feel, if he wanted it to break big or small.
Pineda is learning how to become a complete pitcher, not the one that teams were waiting on the heater the 2nd half of the season.
No hysteria here!!
Gotta go for now.
MTU and Maine, There is a certain level headedness to Carig’s view that’s lacking in King’s and Sherman’s views.
This is a man bites dog. Not only do I agree with a poster, but, two at the same time, and look who it is? Holy Hannah, Batman.
GB-
If they do send someone down my money is on Nova.
For 2 reasons :
They know he handles adversity well.
They have a built in excuse in his realtively poor ST #’s.
Personally, I’d rather they move Garcia than do any of that.
GB-
And stop agreeing with me it’s irritating.
GreenBeret7
You know I always make sense.
Just ask randy.
MTU, I’m not sure when they make all the moves, but, I’m guessing they hold on to Garcia until maybe Pettitte’s second start, unless a team blows them away with an offer for Garcia first. I’m not looking for a Hunter Pence type of return, but, I wouldn’t accept Bobby Abreu or Bret’s newest flavor, either. I’d like Abreu, but, if the angels release him, I’d snap him up in a heartbeat and dump Ibanez.
Maine, I wouldn’t get Randy to pissed off at you. He still has that ace in the hole. He could still turn Big Foot loose on Maine and she’d slaughter all of the cattle and moose.
Gb-
You’re probably right.
yankees like to play it safe.
keeeping freddy till everyone’s status is know is the prudent and simplest thing.
I just hate the idea of Ivan having to be sentr down again.
He’ll handle it but I just think he’s earned more respect at this point.
I don’t think they have the guts to send Pineda down.
they need to see Hughes.
Agree with you abreu.
Oh I think a lot of teams would see Garcia as an upgrade to the back end of their rotations. Certainly Kansas City, Minnesota, Oakland and Seattle among AL teams.
He could help the Cardinals, Cubs, Astros and others.
Just don’t have a target in mind at this time… other than Logan Morrison who is bound to infuriate Ozzie any minute now.
MTU, not sure what it is with Nova. The stuff seems the same as last year, but, he’s making more mistakes with it. Location, maybe?
The world is turning upside down. GB is agreeing with people and Randy made me laugh. I will go through the day with new found hope.
One hope I will not have is that Garcia could bring a player with high upside as one poster wanted earlier. Maybe, just maybe, a long minor player with potential is possible.
Abreu seems about as washed up as Ibanez as a far higher price.
GB-
Yes. I think that’s all it is.
IMO, he’s a slow starter. No pun intended.
If he is 100% healthy I have a lot of faith in him.
He’s earned that level of respect.
Because of his toughness he gets the rodney dangerfield treatment.
It’s paradoxical.
GB7
If Abreu is not happy with the amount of playing time he would get with the Angels don’t you think he’d have the same problem with the Yankees?
randy needs to be carefull. All I need to do is head south and pick off all cars with Mass. plates till I find the right one.
:
Nova’s mistakes have certainly been location and pitch selection….his stuff looks good but when he gets the ball up it flattens out and becomes hittable….when he works down in the zone he’s tough….correctable mistakes.
GB7
I could have the cops put out an APB for some crazy guy with Mass. plates.
O wait, that would include more than one.
Maine, not sure if Abreu would be happy back in pinstripes or not. You’re right, though. It could be an issue.
Gotta run soon.
I’m on a secret mission just like David Phelps.
Probably not a good idea and would never happen, but I wonder how much the Red Sox would like Garcia right about now.
Randy,
Tiger’s swing looks good again….he’s close to being back.
Abreu wants to be traded because he wants to be a full time player. Same issue as some say would be an issue with Damon.
MaineYankee March 26th, 2012 at 10:06 am
GB7
I could have the cops put out an APB for some crazy guy with Mass. plates.
O wait, that would include more than one.
————————————————————————————————————————-
yep. Bullets could get expensive…and rifles, too. When the barrel melts down, you could grab a moose and powder his behind…just like the song says. Moose instead of an alligator.
blake-
Nova sometimes looses command of his FB.
That’s why I say he’s a slow starter.
At some point he’ll correct whatever mechanical issue cuases it and he’ll get into a ridiciulous groove.
He has great stuff and a tremendous demeanor.
All of his stuff moves and he has at least 4 fully developed pitches.
It amazes me when, after all Nova has been thru, people still sometimes doubt him.
He gobbles up challenges like some folks eat chocolate-covered peanuts.
I have a world of respect for that young Man.
Moreso than many on that team.
Maine Yankee -
As I said, I have contradictory opinions on things, and I absolutely see that side of it with Pettitte, and appreciate that he didn’t want to agree to a contract before he knew whether he could do it. I do appreciate that. And I will be glad if he is able to do this. He offers a battle-tested left-handed arm to the pitching staff; but he also offers much more in terms of being a person who goes out of his way to share his experience and expertise and that is extremely valuable.
I guess Cashman opened the door to this in the first place. He gave Andy the “itch.”
MTU,
I agree….I think with Nova you have to forget about upside and realize that what he is and could be is also really valuable……
Blake-
He won 18 last year and looked good doing it.
What more can we ask ?
Gotta run.
I’m unconvinced with sending Pineda down to work on his velocity. How does that work, exactly? I’m question if it did anything for Hughes. I’d take a guess and say Hughes’ velocity increased as his body got healthier.
Pineda’s pitching well right now, he’s hardly a liability.
“I’m unconvinced with sending Pineda down to work on his velocity. How does that work, exactly?”
It wouldn’t be to necessarily “work on it”….it would be to just give it time to come back in a lower stress environment so that he’s not out there trying to over throw etc in the big leagues….not that he would do that because it doesn’t seem like he has this spring….but when you combine the additional year of control….the time to further develop his CU ….and also the time to build his velo back I think it makes some sense to start him at AAA given the depth they have.
Hughes was sent down on a rehab assignment after a 60 day dl stint. It was about healing and regaining arm strength. Could the Yanks phony up some reason to DL Pineda for 30 or so days? Sure, as long as Pineda or his agent doesn’t squawk about it. They could do it with Nova too. The could also send each of them down (for a month, at different times) until they figure out what to do with Garcia and find out how Pettitte rebounds after the layoff.
The thing is that Pineda is probably good enough to build his velo back in the big leagues as well if the CU has really taken a step forward and he can use it effectively …..so it’s just a decision they’ll have to make.
The Yanks didn’t really have a choice with Hughes last year…..he couldn’t get anybody out with what he had and it was clear that something was wrong physically with him….Pineda is still getting outs and I don’t get the sense that he’s hurt so basically it boils down to what they think is best for the team and Pineda long term as he’s a long term investment.
Blake,
There are definitely advantages, but I think Pineda gives you a better chance to win every day than Garcia or Nova – my opinion only. He’s got better control than Nova, and strikes out more guys. And then how do you bring him back up?
I guess I also don’t like the message it sends. If he wasn’t pitching well, that would be one thing, but he is pitching well, and his change up is developing nicely – and it’s working on major league starters. Who cares how good it looks against minor league guys?
Buster_ESPN
A great story by Lindsay Berra about pitching mechanics, and it should get a lot of attention from club executives. http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_.....n-magazine
If he wasn’t pitching well, that would be one thing, but he is pitching well, and his change up is developing nicely – and it’s working on major league starters. Who cares how good it looks against minor league guys?
______________________
I’ve asked this of the leading Pineda-to-AAA advocate, Randy, and he so far declines to answer the question – so I’ll open it up to the field:
How does one assess the major-league readiness/effectivneess of his change-up if thrown to AAA hitters?
Anyone have some insight where Randy has none?
Pineda has proved absolutely zippo with the Yankees so far.
His claim to fame is what he did last year with the M’s which was a mixed bag, and the fact that our best prospect was traded for him.
Compare that with what Nova has already shown with the Yankees.
No matter what challenge you throw in front of him he overcomes it.
To say that Pineda deserves more respect than Nova at this point is ludicrous to me.
Respect is earned.
And I do not agree than Pineda gives you a better chance to wine than Nova.
Based on what ?
That said, I don’t believe the Yankees would have the guts to send Pineda down.
I’ll believe that one when I see it.
My 2 cents.
This was on a trip to California to play some exhibition games. NY trained in Phoenix that year so NYYs co-owners Del Webb and Dan Topping could show off the team to their West Coast friends. Webb was trying to promote his Sun City retirement villeges.
YES Network ? @YESNetwork
On this date in 1951, Mickey Mantle hit a home run that traveled an estimated 650 feet. MORE: http://bit.ly/GROOx7
Youth needs to be served. If everyone is pitching well and healthy I say trade Garcia.
We’ll drive off the Pettite bridge when we get there, but they can’t screw with a 6-man rotation like they did last year. It completely messed up Sabathia.
“There are definitely advantages, but I think Pineda gives you a better chance to win every day than Garcia or Nova”
Maybe….but how.much difference will it make for a month? Im not expecting them send him down really though….
No matter what challenge you throw in front of him he overcomes it.
To say that Pineda deserves more respect than Nova at this point is ludicrous to me.
———
Pineda had the better season last year. He throws more strikes and strikes out more batters than Nova does. That’s a pretty empirical argument to say he’s a better pitcher.
pat -
Thanks for that link. Really interesting.
I think a team like the Orioles with nothing to lose, is ripe for trying this approach.
But perhaps the emphasis on good mechanics really needs to begin when the pitcher is much younger.
“How does one assess the major-league readiness/effectivneess of his change-up if thrown to AAA hitters?”
I mean you can look at the action….the arm speed, the arm slot, the location…..basically the same stuff you look at when deciding if a prospects secondary pitches are ready….but in this case those things have looked pretty good already this spring…..I don’t think they’ll send Pineda down because he’s one of their 5 best starters…..but the idea does have some merit for other reasons.
Kev-
And Nova won 18 games.
And Pineda kinda sucked for half a season.
And Nova has 4 developed pitches.
And Nova has moxie and grit.
And Pineda’s velo is down and he’s working on a 3rd pitch.
That’s pretty empirical too.
MTU,
Are you arguing that who Pineda was traded for should be factored into an actual evaluation of rotation priority?
stuckey-
nope.
Just the opposite.
That it should have no bearing.
sorry if that wasn’t clear.
The thing with trading Garcia is its kinda pointless unless you can get a decent return right now….especially since we still don’t know what Pettite is. Id hold him for now and see if a team gets desperate enough for a starter that they’d give up either a decent prospect or something the Yankees actually could use……I wouldn’t trade him just to trade him.
blake-
who are you sending down then ?
“I mean you can look at the action….the arm speed, the arm slot, the location…..basically the same stuff you look at when deciding if a prospects secondary pitches are ready….but in this case those things have looked pretty good already this spring…..”
_______________________________
blake, exactly.
The AAA plan (for the change-up, specifically) always struck me as a solution in search of a problem.
I’ve yet to see an explanation to what the back-end of the ‘solution’ was – an arbitrary, pre-determined amount of time independent of results?
If result-based, what is the needed threshold to achieve, given they’d be measured against AAA hitters?
The best indicator may be what you described, but if the NYY org decides the mechanics and pitch action meets their criteria now, what will AAA time do?
I can only speculate as to the answers to these questions because the solution’s leading advocate declines to reveal what the resolution of his plan actually is.
MTU March 26th, 2012 at 10:53 am
Kev-
And Nova won 18 games.
And Pineda kinda sucked for half a season.
And Nova has 4 developed pitches.
And Nova has moxie and grit.
And Pineda’s velo is down and he’s working on a 3rd pitch.
That’s pretty empirical too.
————–
Nova did win 18 games, but you know Pineda would have had a winning record if he pitched for the Yankees.
Pineda “kind of sucked,” but not really. His first half was also way better than either of Nova’s halves, showing some significantly more upside.
Nova does have more pitches, and he does have grit. Pineda seems to have some grit too, but he still has a better fastball than Nova despite a lack of velocity, and he has a better slider.
MTU,
For me right now the options are 1) Garcia to the bullpen 2) Pineda to AAA. I think they’ll go with #1 and cross the Andy bridge later on…..
And I like Nova, don’t get me wrong. I just think pointing to Pineda and saying he’s the one to go, when he’s throwing quite well, isn’t a simple answer. I don’t think it’s an answer based on winning either.
I’d say just send the guy who performed least-well down, and say ‘sorry, them’s the breaks.’ These are good problems to have.
Pineda has proved absolutely zippo with the Yankees so far.
———————–
Sure he has. He’s proved that he’s not an uncoachable mule.
Maybe he could have come out and shown everybody that blazing fastball. But at what expense?
He knew the plan was the change and he’s stuck to it while taking a lot of flack about his velocity. He’s not dumb.
Kev-
I guess we agree to disagree on which guy gives you a better chance to win as of now.
If Pineda gets his 95 + back and his CU proves an effective weapon I might have to reevaluate.
Remember Nova won those 18 in the AL East.
“The AAA plan (for the change-up, specifically) always struck me as a solution in search of a problem.”
I agree….and I wouldn’t send him down for that alone….but in this case there are a couple of other factors (velocity dip and service time) to consider in addition to that.
“Remember Nova won those 18 in the AL East.”
16 actually but doesn’t change your point
I don’t really think Nova would benefit from more AAA time….id put him in the rotation and leave him alone until he did something to change my mind.
Blake-
I don’t think the Yankees have the nerve to send Pineda down.
Here’s what I always like to remind myself of periodically:
If the Yankees biggest problem is which early-20′s, cost controlled starter (who’d be a #2 starter in most ML rotations) will be there #5 starter, all-in-all, things are good.
A guy who in this rotation can easily be the 5th starter, having an utterly effective ST, is so-far missing a few MPH’s off his mid-90′s fastball.
Other teams should have such, pressing, alarming problems.
MTU, Nova the dark horse was pretty great last season. I hope wins another 18 this season too, why not?
“I don’t think the Yankees have the nerve to send Pineda down.”
I don’t either….I think Freddy will be in the pen and theyll shop him
“If the Yankees biggest problem is which early-20?s, cost controlled starter (who’d be a #2 starter in most ML rotations) will be there #5 starter, all-in-all, things are good.”
Yup…the Red Sox would love to have that problem….they have Daniel Bard giving up 5+ runs an outing
Jeers-
Not saying Pineda is some lunk.
What I am saying is that he’s proven nothing in the pressure cooker of the Yankees or the AL East.
I just don’t see why he couldn’t be sent down instead of Nova ?
It seems to me he might profit from it more than Ivan at the moment.
New thread —->
The rotation decision will be impacted by each of the next two outings. If one guy is pitching badly, that will tell the tale. If they all are pitching relatively equally, and Hughes looks like his is retaining his velocity, then I believe it is Garcia to the pen.
I’d send NOBODY down to AAA, and just put Garcia in The Pen while exploring trade possibilities for him. Till Pettitte is ready, Garcia is needed SP insurance. If the Yanks are all that concerned about Pineda and the MPH, they should have him do a bullpen and throw Nothing but heater after heater. NO cutters, NO changes, NO dipsy-doodles, and see what he can get it up to. Pineda’s MPH is basically where it was the last half of 2011, so what’s the big deal??? Hughes and Nova are pitching well in ST, and Kuroda is doing well also, so the SP is in good shape. Where concern Should be is Swish. He seems to be having trouble with Both sides of the groin, and ST is quickly ending with his bat covered with cobwebs. He needs to ditch whatever New training regime he undertook in the offseason. The nail bitter is gonna be just what are the Yanks gonna do regarding Maxwell and Dickerson, with Swish consistently having trouble physically. The Yanks are extremely thin regarding a reliable backup in RF. And do NOT give me Jones.
Whatever the outcome of the pitching staff, it’s a problem NYYs haven’t had since 1961 and 1962 when they had 6 starters for 7 spots. Ford, Terry, Stafford, Coates, Turley, Sheldon and Daley.