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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Postgame notes: Pineda’s shoulder a cause for concern

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Notes on Mar 30, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The first two times reporters asked Michael Pineda whether his arm hurt tonight, Pineda got very quiet and hesitant before sheepishly saying his arm was ok. The third time, his answer changed.

“Today my arm is a little sore,” he said.

Pineda pointed to the back of his right shoulder.

“When I’m throwing, it’s a little sore,” he explained. “It’s normal sore(ness). Sometimes every player doesn’t feel 100 percent when they play every day.”

The Yankees aren’t so sure the soreness is normal. They’re sending Pineda for an MRI in the morning. Both Brian Cashman and Joe Girardi said they’re concerned, and Girardi conceded that this injury might very well have settled the Yankees rotation competition.

“I have concern,” Cashman said. “Any time a pitcher talks about his shoulder I have concern. His velocity is down, so you put those two together and it obviously causes that level of concern. … We’ve asked him all spring, and he’s said he’s been fine. But it’s not like I sat him down now, stuck a light in his face and said, ‘Tell me now, in the last five weeks (has the shoulder hurt)?’ I don’t know. I know we’ve asked him all spring, and he’s said he’s been fine, that he’s healthy and feels good. Tonight, after he came out of his start, he talked about his shoulder being tight in the back.”

Expected to pitch close to 95 pitches, Pineda threw just 71 before being pulled after 2.2 innings. He gave up six hits on seven hits, three walks and two strikeouts. It was easily his worst start of the spring. Pineda admitted afterward that he was trying to generate more fastball velocity, but his fastball again sat at 90-92 mph, topping out at 94.

Pineda was dejected afterward, and when he was asked whether he deserved a spot, Pineda said simply, “I don’t know.”

“We’ve got to find out what’s going on before we discuss this any further,” Girardi said. “We talk about you don’t make decisions too early in camp because things have a way of working out sometimes.”

• Not exactly the comparison you want to hear, but Girardi said Pineda might be going through the same thing Phil Hughes went through last spring. It’s pretty much impossible not to think of Hughes after something like this (young pitcher, after his first full season as a big league starter, showing diminished velocity in spring training and then talking about a sore shoulder). It does sound awfully familiar.

• Girardi said Pineda’s fastball was cutting a lot tonight. It’s cut occasionally this spring, but tonight was an extreme example, and that might have something to do with the diminished velocity. Pineda said his left shoulder was flying open, and that mechanical flaw kept him from staying behind the baseball consistently. Girardi said those altered mechanics might have come from Pineda trying to generate additional velocity, and they might have come from trying to compensate for the injury.

• Cesar Cabral is also hurt, and that might have decided the Yankees competition for a second lefty. Cabral made it through an inning tonight, but then complained about significant pain in his left elbow. He was in a sling tonight, and he’ll go for both an MRI and an x-ray tomorrow morning. Girardi said Cabral had a “pretty good chance” of making the team. Now it would seem that Clay Rapada is a heavy favorite for a bullpen spot.

• It’s a tiny footnote compared to Pineda and Cabral, but George Kontos was unavailable because of a blister.

• On a night full of bad news, the Yankees actually won tonight’s game. They beat the Phillies 13-9. Derek Jeter, Eric Chavez and Dewayne Wise each had two hits. Wise’s two hits were both home runs. Curtis Granderson also went deep.

• Cory Wade pitched two innings tonight, giving up one run on three hits. He’s being stretched out a little bit so that he can go two or three innings if necessary in the regular season.

• If you missed it earlier, Freddy Garcia’s line at the minor league complex was 6.2 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 3 BB, 5 K. The one run scored after he left the game in the seventh. “I was throwing strikes,” Garcia said. “I tried to keep the ball down. Those guys, every pitch, they swing, but I was able to get them out. I threw everything. I’m happy. I threw like 85 pitches, and that’s what I need. Do my work and wait for my next start on Wednesday.”

• Dave Robertson at the minor league complex: 2 IP, 5 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 1 K. Robertson gave up one home run and pitched two innings in an attempt to build some arm strength. “He’s going to get a couple more appearances and I think he’ll be ready,” Girardi said. “Hopefully today was a step in the right direction.”

• Nick Swisher went 1-for-4 with a double at the minor league complex. One of the pitchers he faced was Jo-Jo Reyes. “Those minor-league fields, it feels like the pitcher is like five feet from you,” Swisher said. “It’s good just to go down there, get the motion and rhythm of everything.”

• With Pineda’s start tonight, the Yankees have finished their longest starts of the spring. Each starter will be dialed back this last turn through the rotation. Look for close to four innings each. “Each guy will be a little different,” Girardi said. “There’s nothing set for each guy at this time. I know Larry’s talked to each guy about what they want, so but it won’t be as long as this 95-pitch start that they’ve had.”

• Girardi said every starting pitcher — including David Phelps, Adam Warren and D.J. Mitchell — is as stretched out as the Yankees need them to be at this point. A start at a lower pitch count won’t change that, it’s just a bit of a rest heading into the regular season.

• Although Phil Hughes is pitching out of the bullpen on Monday, Girardi made it clear that Hughes will prepare as a starter that day. Before tonight’s game, that actually seemed like relevant information. Now it’s perfectly obvious.

Associated Press photos

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298 Responses to “Postgame notes: Pineda’s shoulder a cause for concern”

  1. Bronx Jeers March 30th, 2012 at 11:40 pm

    @RobinsonCano: Wow what a great day today! I haven’t been on here for a minute, miss you guys lol

    ————————-

    Someone must not have gotten the memo. :wink:

  2. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 30th, 2012 at 11:45 pm

    I hope Cashman reads this blog. Cashman worried about the risks associated with trading away a Piazza type hitter for an unknown quantity like Pineda. Cashman has to answer for his misguided and poor decision making abilities. Cashman, take responsibility and quit.

  3. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 30th, 2012 at 11:45 pm

    Like I’ve said before, Montero was raised in the belly of the beast, the NYY culture. He was blooming as a hitter right before our eyes. Cashman was wrong, again. Perhaps Cash can try to get Jarret Wright, or Javiar Vasquez, or Weaver…….wrong again Cash!

  4. G. Love March 30th, 2012 at 11:47 pm

    EA – That was my shock when the trade happened. If you had told me we were trading Montero for Cain I would’ve understood. If you told me we were getting Felix for him I would’ve been elated.

    Pineda looked to have the year Hughes had when he won 18 but only pitched well for 1/2 a season. When people started saying his velocity dropped in the 2nd half I got worried. When Verducci put Pineda in his warning list I just tried to tune that out and pretend it was just the big bad media ganging up on my Yankees.

    Then when he got to spring training & the velocity wasn’t there I got nervous. I think that’s part of the reason I was so thrilled Andy was returning. I had a feeling something like this was going on. When Mo at 42 can stroll into spring training and throw 92 in his sleep and Pineda, 20 years younger than him, started the spring throwing below 90…well you get my drift.

    What’s done is done. Cashman is a poor evaluator of pitching. He always has been. He always will be. This isn’t news. Anyone who has followed this team knows he’s wrong way more than he’s right. He also has an arrogance to him in that he covers his eyes and pretends this offense didn’t need a young power bat. He signs Ibanez when guys like Damon and Matsui would kill to put the uniform on again because Ibanez is docile in the clubhouse.

    You want to think that the Yankees are run by really smart guys who do their homework and know what they are doing but unfortunately they’re human.

    The good part is we have a solid 5 rotation with Andy Pettitte waiting in the wings. Our pen is balanced and talented. In Phelps, Warren and Mitchell we have arms that are ready to step in that are better than the Darrell Rasner/Karstens era arms who were called on in similar ways.

    If I were the owners of this team I would go above Cashman’s head and find him a person to control the pitching decisions since he’s shown he’s poor at that. If Cashman doesn’t like it, he can go. He’s not a great baseball mind. He’s not a GM savant. He’s a human guy who makes a lot mistakes and the payroll and the talent he inherited help cover for him an awful lot.

  5. Mike_Boston March 30th, 2012 at 11:47 pm

    Luis,
    That’s very cool you learned up here, those are all fantastic mountains. It’s kind of like the ol’ making it in NYC, if you can ski in VT you can ski anywhere. I’m at Jay Peak, 10 miles south of the Canadian border, last month we had a 48 inch storm over 2+ days!!

  6. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 30th, 2012 at 11:52 pm

    “He signs Ibanez when guys like Damon and Matsui would kill to put the uniform on again because Ibanez is docile in the clubhouse.”

    You point out another Cashman’s weakness that he relies on stats rather than using a combo of stats and a player’s passion/heart. Damon brings so much to the table even now. He literally lifted his level of play and helped win the WS. Cashfool doesn’t consider the heart. If only Stick could take over!

  7. luis March 30th, 2012 at 11:53 pm

    Mike_Boston March 30th, 2012 at 11:47 pm

    Luis,
    That’s very cool you learned up here, those are all fantastic mountains. It’s kind of like the ol’ making it in NYC, if you can ski in VT you can ski anywhere. I’m at Jay Peak, 10 miles south of the Canadian border, last month we had a 48 inch storm over 2+ days!!

    =========================

    Yup, if you ski the ice, everything else is easy in comparison. Boy!! that’s a storm!. Well i hope you enjoy it down in Argentina, if you pick the right time you are going to have a blast!. take my advice and bring the fatties

  8. Benny Blanco March 30th, 2012 at 11:53 pm

    Not exactly the news I wanted to hear but oh well.

  9. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 30th, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    Pineda is officially broken by the media. He showed vulnerability which is considered a weakness in hades, I mean NYC

  10. Eroc March 30th, 2012 at 11:55 pm

    “Like I’ve said before, Montero was raised in the belly of the beast, the NYY culture. He was blooming as a hitter right before our eyes. Cashman was wrong, again. Perhaps Cash can try to get Jarret Wright, or Javiar Vasquez, or Weaver…….wrong again Cash!”

    His luck with pitching has been deplorable. Has he hit on anyone other than CC – from inside or outside the organization?

    It’s one thing if this guy was a FA or someone we developed, but to give up an elite young bat for him, it is just sickening. And it’s not even a reaction to the injury (which was a part of the inherent risk of acquiring a pitcher, especially one that had elbow problems in the minors). It was always a questionable trade when you factor in everything

  11. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 30th, 2012 at 11:58 pm

    Montero always evolves into a great hitter at every level he has worked in. By the ASB, he will be hitting like a machine

  12. CB March 30th, 2012 at 11:59 pm

    “Pineda said his left shoulder was flying open, and that mechanical flaw kept him from staying behind the baseball consistently.

    Girardi said those altered mechanics might have come from Pineda trying to generate additional velocity, and they might have come from trying to compensate for the injury.”

    Putting so much emphasis on this start was a mistake. All the Yankees did was to set the kid up to try to throw hard even if his arm wasn’t able to. What was the point of making any kinds of statements like that?

    This wasn’t a a veteran who has a deep understanding of his body. This is a 6’7 kid in his second major league camp who is likely trying to figure out what’s going on with his arm and why he can’t throw as hard as he usually does.

    The logical thing for him to do is to keep trying to throw harder. His spot in the majors depended on it. So much of it has been made the entire spring.

    If he does have something like Hughes does as Girardi suggests – why the heck would you ever even want him trying to throw hard. His arm physically can’t do it. All he’s going to do is to risk injuring himself as he tries to do what he can’t.

    And this brings up the second issue. Girardi is rightfully commenting that altered mechanics could have come from trying to generate more velocity and they may have been a compensating mechanism for the injury.

    That’s great. Now why the heck did Girardi and Rothschild allow him to throw 71 pitches when he looked so awful all night mechanically and had no life or velocity on the ball?

    I really don’t understand this at all. I’m honestly baffled by their passivity.

    I’m a fan and I don’t know anything much about the game. Even I could clearly see that Pineda had major problems with his mechanics. Problems that give pause that something is going on with this young pitchers shoulder. He was dropping his shoulder and his arm slot so much.

    What does this team do with young pitching?

  13. Betsy March 30th, 2012 at 11:59 pm

    Well, I said his earlier – how stupid was it for Joe to come out and say it was a big start for Pineda? What did he expect Pineda to do? Unfortunately he did what Phil Hughes did – what so many athletes do- and didn’t say anything. It’s dumb, but it’s to be expected when they obviously have a job at stake.

    I refuse to be like so many and jump off the ledge. Those who hated the trade before, only hate it worse now. Oh well. I’m sure he’s going to be fine and he’ll be a tremendous pitcher for us. I just am very disturbed that the Yankees, on one hand, blathered about his velocity problems and on the other hand still pushed him very hard. That makes me nervous.

  14. Cashmoney March 30th, 2012 at 11:59 pm

    Pat M, I wont bother. but the… reading this blog is funny and scary at times. good night all.

  15. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 12:01 am

    What did he expect Pineda to do?

    Maybe they thought Pineda simply holding back like some posters here, maybe they interpreted Pineda’s comments as he was purposefully holding back. So they thought he’d just stop holding back. :twisted:

  16. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 12:04 am

    It stinks they called Pineda’s bluff I guess?

  17. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 12:04 am

    Maybe if they had treated his velocity drop with the concern it warranted…

  18. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 12:05 am

    Well Joe is supposed to be a tad more concerned and knowledgable than your average fan. I’m ticked off that Joe put so much emphasis on the game- and obviously the GM did as well. I might be one of the few who care to stick behind Pineda and support him as I still believe in him, but holy cow, CB is right in asking what the Yankees do with young pitching.

  19. rm March 31st, 2012 at 12:05 am

    The nice thing about having seven good starting pitchers is that it significanlty raises the probability that 5 of them will be healthy at the same time. Cashman was very wise to accumulate so much pitching talent.

    There will be many days during the season like today when 2 or more players a banged up a little and will not be able to play. Fortunately thae Yankees have a great deal of depth and they can overcome a few injuries better than any other team in baseball.

    I am very optimistic about this season.

    By the way catchers also tend to get dinged up a bit during the course of a baseball season and more often than not it affects their performance on the field and is a relatively good bet that Jesus will only be the second best cather named Montero this season.

  20. Benny Blanco March 31st, 2012 at 12:05 am

    “Putting so much emphasis on this start was a mistake. All the Yankees did was to set the kid up to try to throw hard even if his arm wasn’t able to. What was the point of making any kinds of statements like that?”

    I have no problem that the yankees want their pitchers to earn a spot, but I knew all this talk of his velocity would make him “try” to generate velocity as oppose to just pitching.

  21. Eroc March 31st, 2012 at 12:06 am

    Where is Rothschild in all this? Isn’t he supposed to be this great pitching coach, the anti-Dave Eliand?

  22. CB March 31st, 2012 at 12:06 am

    Pineda’s front shoulder was flying open. His throwing shoulder was dropping and his arm slot was wrong.

    He was getting around the ball from the get go.

    He was clearly overthrowing – yet producing no life on the ball and low velocities.

    Let’s let him keep on keeping on. Keep throwing pitches it’ll just get better on its own. Let’s just sit here in this dugout and keep watching.

  23. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 12:07 am

    Jerkface, I was not worried because what can you really do about innings-related fatigue? Plus, Pineda was pitching well. The problem came with the Yankees pushing him beyond where he was capable physically. Of course he’s going to try and throw harder. I really don’t like Girardi.

  24. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 12:08 am

    If we can’t even trust Rothschild (nevermind Joe, who I’m not a fan of), then seriously – we’re in trouble.

  25. Yank 97 March 31st, 2012 at 12:09 am

    Cashman/Eppler were in the front row as well watching this.

    The entire organization is clueless. From Girardi to Eppler to Cashman to Rothschild to the scouts.

    Pinning it on one guy doesn’t make sense. This goes back years.

  26. Bronx Jeers March 31st, 2012 at 12:09 am

    Odds are the MRI won’t show damage, maybe some inflammation and they’ll shut him down. Who knows what happens with him after that.

    So now Freddy’s safe in the rotation and Nova wins a spot by default. If all goes right Andy’s back early-mid May. Who thinks it’s likely that Hughes and Nova will both outpitch Frdddy?

    I think Freddy’s job security here just got a nice bump.

  27. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:12 am

    I think Pineda’s improved curve and success getting outs with reduced velocity gave him a longer leash. That and he hid his discomfort. I think if he came out of the gate with a whack delivery and no command, he wouldn’t have got this far. For the most part of spring training, he pitched well with a dead arm and got outs. I think he will regain his arm strength in a couple months. I doubt there’s structural damage or he wouldn’t be able to lift his shoulder.

  28. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 31st, 2012 at 12:12 am

    Joe had his nose in the binder and didn’t see the front shoulder flying open. Stats stats stats….

  29. EA March 31st, 2012 at 12:13 am

    Rothschild couldn’t figure out Hughes last year either. If he can’t properly administrate these pitchers, then what good is he?

    And if you guys haven’t figured out that Girardi is a figurehead extension of Cashman, then you haven’t been paying attention. He isn’t going to do anything without it being in line with Cashman and others.

  30. CB March 31st, 2012 at 12:13 am

    “It stinks they called Pineda’s bluff I guess?”

    They bring 6 starters into camp – each of whom makes more money than Pineda.

    On top of that they sign Pettite.

    Throughout camp they keep emphasizing how no one other than CC really has a rotation spot sewn up. It’s a competition. Not even Nova who was here last year is safe. Everyone supposedly has to earn it.

    The manager emphasizes how a spring training start is “important” which is clearly a code word for throw with the velocity expected or your going to the minors.

    You have to be very cautious and critical when interpreting anything he says. You know his instinct is going to be to man up and try to do what it takes to stay in the bigs.

    When he says no problem I can throw harder just building up my arm and then you see what’s going on with him on the mound how can’t you be enormously questioning over whether he himself has a handle on what’s going on with his arm?

    This organization is just unbelievable at times.

  31. G. Love March 31st, 2012 at 12:14 am

    Developing pitching is a 2 way street. These guys need to be honest with their coaches and themselves.

    Pineda has the negative of the coming into camp overweight to stimulate some of the “he needs to push it” mentality that surrounded his first spring here. Clearly, even his coaches felt that and couldn’t see what some people could see on the mound physically happening with him.

    Verducci called this one before the spring began. He had Pineda in his list of guy who should have arm problems and he was right.

    Maybe Cashman can take a look at Verducci’s hangover series of columns about young pitching and finally learn something from it.

    The bitter pill is what we gave up here. Pineda shouldn’t be blamed. He didn’t ask for Cashman to trade him for a guy he likened to Piazza in the press. Cashman put all the heat on this kid from jump street.

    The trade was made because the Yankees were going to prove what a poor catcher Montero was, how they didn’t need his offense at DH to win and how they could have a cheap rotation behind CC to get them under the luxury tax in 2014.

    It was a smarter than the room trade where Cashman was trying to show how he could beat the system and fill in DH with a journeyman bat for chump change and not have to chase Hamels, etc.

    Whenever a GM shows that kind of hubris they get burnt. This wasn’t a pure baseball decision. It was driven by his need to be praised for building cheap pitching staffs and for getting the budget down. He’s always been ashamed of the payroll until he needs it to win in years like 2009.

    Cashman wanted the praise for trading a guy with no position for an Ace. He’ll have to wait awhile and hope that Pineda physically and mentally can live up to that now.

    If Pineda has what Hughes has, he’ll be lucky to have his real stuff by September.

  32. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:14 am

    I meant improved changeup.

  33. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 31st, 2012 at 12:15 am

    One of the disadvantages of George not in charge is the threat of getting canned for incompetence. The shoulder flying open and low velocity should have been enough of a clue to take Pineda out of the game earlier. Who knows how much Pineda has injured himself while he was trying to throw harder than 89. Very sad.

  34. Yank 97 March 31st, 2012 at 12:16 am

    Cashman on Pineda: “We’ve asked the question because of the velocity, how do you feel physically? He’s always felt fine. The answer has always been good. In terms of his mechanics, everything else like that, the only thing that has obviously been a red flag has been the velocity.”

  35. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 31st, 2012 at 12:17 am

    As Michael Corleone said, “cashman was always the smart one”

  36. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 12:18 am

    If Phil/Nova are pitching well, Freddy is the odd man out. I love him, but he’s got no future on the team.

  37. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:19 am

    Facts:

    Pineda has an improved changeup

    Pineda pitched well most of spring and got outs

    Pineda said he felt fine

    Pineda’s mechanics and command were consistent most of spring

    Pineda’s velocity is down but he still touches 94

  38. DaveD March 31st, 2012 at 12:20 am

    Cashman was impulsive when he made the Pineda trade, and now he was impulsive about seeing results and velocity. He has no clue about pitching, none. Regardless of how this turns out, it was idiotic to trade a young power bat like that for a guy with such big risk. Like someone else said, we didn’t get Matt Cain, we got a project with 1 good half season and elbow problems in the minors.

    He better pray Montero forgets how to hit a baseball because people could have seen this coming from a mile away. Next time, don’t be so quick to trade an elite young power bat that you developed.

  39. CB March 31st, 2012 at 12:20 am

    “I think Pineda’s improved curve and success getting outs with reduced velocity gave him a longer leash. ”

    If this is true it would be such a poor indictment of the team and the coaching staff.

    The issue with his velocity was never, ever spring training results – good or bad.

    Effectiveness was completely unimportant.

    The only thing that mattered was understanding why his velocity was unexpectedly low.

    The whole argument about velocity being over rated, etc. he can still be effective, etc. was entirely besides the point.

    That’s like baseball IQ of 50 thinking.

    The missing velocity mattered only because it was a sign of something else going on. And what really, really mattered – what the organization had to do was to fully understand what was going on.

    And they didn’t seem to. Even as they watched it tonight unfold on the mound.

    I really can’t get over this. He’s getting outs everything is ok. That is flat out dumb.

  40. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 12:20 am

    Will Freddy now feel confident enough to dice up some onions for his omelette?

  41. CB March 31st, 2012 at 12:23 am

    “Pineda’s mechanics and command were consistent most of spring”

    This is untrue. He’s had mechanical problems all spring.

    “Pineda’s velocity is down but he still touches 94″

    You haven’t seen Pineda throw enough. He looks nothing like the pitcher he was last year. Not once this spring has he looked that way. Not even close.

    Watching him throw this spring was like watching an entirely different player. It has been strange. As if what you are seeing just doesn’t compute at all.

  42. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:23 am

    The MRI will be negative and the Yankees will just have to wait longer than expected for that velocity to return.

  43. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:24 am

    CB:

    Cashman on Pineda: “We’ve asked the question because of the velocity, how do you feel physically? He’s always felt fine. The answer has always been good. In terms of his mechanics, everything else like that, the only thing that has obviously been a red flag has been the velocity.”

  44. G. Love March 31st, 2012 at 12:25 am

    CB,

    When the Yankees started using the word “pitchability” in terms of Pineda w/o velocity the writing was on the wall. They were already tripping over themselves to make excuses for this deal and try to spin that they got a pitcher and not a thrower and he didn’t need his fastball to be successful.

    That told me there was trouble. The only time you hear pitchability is when a team is pumping up a guy who can’t throw hard.

  45. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 12:25 am

    So there was a red flag and Joe still insisted it was a big start. I really have no clue as to why the organization is in love with him. It’s the same sort of situation as with the competition. Does Joe care about Pineda’s long-term health when most likely he won’t be here to enjoy the fruits of his success? Probably not, just like he doesn’t care about the future of the franchise. It’s why he prefers Freddy over Phil or whomever in the rotation.

  46. Yank 97 March 31st, 2012 at 12:26 am

    “Pineda’s velocity is down but he still touches 94″

    We didn’t trade Montero to acquire a Phil Hughes clone – we thought we were acquiring a legit special pitcher. Guy who AVERAGED 95 and could touch 98 or even 99 with a sick slider and developing change.

    The GM has said multiple times this ST that the velocity was a concern, he repeated that tonight. The manager said it was a big start for him tonight.

    They had to figure out the root cause of his issues and they never did. Apparently, they thought trying to overthrow to light up the radar gun was smart. Rothschild is the guy who needs to take heat for that – he had to have been a proponent of this.

  47. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:27 am

    So there is no way he gets back his velocity anytime soon?

    Let’s just be clear that’s speculative.

  48. CB March 31st, 2012 at 12:27 am

    via Feinsand on twitter:

    Girardi on Cesar Cabral’s elbow injury: “His elbow was in pain. He didn’t let on, either. He finished the inning. That’s the dangerous thing about this time of year. That’s the true danger. Because everyone’s trying to make a team. It’s what you dream about as a little kid. What you do all the work for. He was in a lot of pain. He’s got two tests tomorrow. An MRI and an X-Ray. Doesn’t sound great.”

    That’s the true danger… It’s what you dream about as a little kid.

    My goodness. These people are unbelievable.

    Girardi is unable to generalize this idea to Pineda and do so before this game?

    Shocking – a kid trying to make the team isn’t 100% open about what he’s feeling in his arm.

  49. Eroc March 31st, 2012 at 12:29 am

    “I really can’t get over this. He’s getting outs everything is ok. That is flat out dumb.”

    Wouldn’t surprise me at all if the organization viewed it like this. Kind of as a way to ‘salvage’ him early in the year – did he show enough to prove he could get outs at the ML level without being a liability?

    Just like last year, after Hughes’ disastrous 2 outings to start the year, Girardi talking about how guys like Mussina and Moyer survived with lesser velocity and it is not the end-all-be-all.

    The organization really has no clue.

    And here we thought Eliand was the problem. Same ineptitude with him gone.

  50. CB March 31st, 2012 at 12:30 am

    Brett,

    You honestly know very little about this pitcher.

    From the first few pitches he threw this spring I knew something was going on. Didn’t know what as I can’t talk to him.

    But he has looked completely different from the pitcher he was last year.

    I don’t even care what the radar gun read or what he was saying. It was clear something was different.

    And if the Yankees didn’t fully understand what that was – shame on them.

    Probability is that he’ll be fine. But the way they handle these situations is just awful.

  51. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 12:30 am

    What’s sad is not so much about what it means for the team, but the effect on Pineda. Does anyone in the organization care about the careers of these kids?

  52. Duh Innings March 31st, 2012 at 12:31 am

    Robinson Cano is the ONLY star player still a Yankee signed by and developed under Cashman who is the most overrated sports executive in professional sports history.

    Cashman has ZERO World Series with a team which was definitively his as he still needed “The Core Four” signed by Gene Michael to win it. Michael could’ve signed Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixiera, and traded for Swisher. Can we honestly say Cashman would’ve traded Roberto Kelly for Paul O’Neill, fleeced John Wetteland away from Montreal, convinced Steinbrenner not to trade Bernie Williams to Boston for Darren Lewis straight up, chosen Jeter, Pettitte, Rivera, and Williams in the draft and signed them? No way, if we were honest.

    Cashman re-signed Pettitte as a band-aid to cover up that Pineda was hurt and that he has no viable fifth starter in his farm system for 2012 or 2013 cuz how could the Yanks let go of Pettitte after 2012 if he has a good season and wants to come back for 2013? Luckily for him Pettitte wanted to come back for a third time. ‘Funny how he keeps bringing back Pettitte instead of developing viable homegrown starters. ‘Funny how he signs old starters like Garcia twice, Colon, and Kuroda. It’s not funny because HE HAS NO STARTERS ON THE FARM GOOD ENOUGH TO BE YANKEE STARTERS. I count exactly FOUR quality full seasons by a Yankee homegrown starter signed and developed under Cashman since 1998: 2006-2007 Wang, 2010 Hughes, 2011 Nova. Five seasons if you wanna throw in Chamberlain’s 2009 (I don’t as he was fifth starter good at best.) Three of those seasons were from old starters getting injured (Wang was called up in 2005 to replace an injured Kevin Brown while Nova was called up to replace an injured Bartolo Colon.) If Brown and Colon don’t get hurt, Wang and Nova don’t have their full seasons.

    If Pineda is out long-term, Montero excels with Seattle, and the Yanks don’t win the World Series this year, Cashman should be f-i-r-e-d FIRED. He should be fired if he loses his case against Neathway regardless of what Pineda, Montero, and the Yanks do.

    Cashman is a public embarassment to the organization with his cheating and a serial philanderer who could endanger the safety of everyone in it if Louise Neathway beats the extortion rap then decides to hurt someone in the organization who could be anyone from a security guard to Derek Jeter. All she has to do is say Cashman gave her money she never asked for or asked Cashman for money but never extorted it and she’ll beat the rap as what evidence does Cashman’s team have that Neathway extorted money from him? Where has she blackmailed him and/or threatened to physically hurt him or his family? Where has she written or said “Give me $X or I’ll…”? Nowhere. He accused her of extortion to soften the blow that he got caught with his pants down again and maybe even rejected in bed. If he loses that case how can he possibly continue on as the Yankees GM?

    I personally think his whole thing with Neathway has clouded his judgement as a GM.

  53. G. Love March 31st, 2012 at 12:31 am

    Rothschild with Hughes and now Pineda forcing through their issues in successive springs isn’t exactly looking like Dave Duncan now, is he?

  54. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:33 am

    CB,

    At what point do you think it would have been appropriate to intervene? Arm strength comes over time. They were waiting for it. When did you want them to start panicking?

  55. ZMAN March 31st, 2012 at 12:33 am

    The fact that you all pin this on Girardi is even more of an indictment on the organization than anything else that has been said.

    If he is making these decisions unilaterally on our pitchers, there is no hope. What the hell are we paying the pitching coach $3 million for? What are Cashman, Eppler, the scouts, etc. doing?

    Girardi has enough stuff on his plate to where he has to be in charge with observing, motivating, tinkering with, etc. these pitchers, most of whom we hope have big futures with us.

    I prefer to think that the organization, top to bottom, is inept with Girardi being a small part of the puzzle, that is far, far better than the alternative.

  56. CB March 31st, 2012 at 12:35 am

    “Just like last year, after Hughes’ disastrous 2 outings to start the year, Girardi talking about how guys like Mussina and Moyer survived with lesser velocity and it is not the end-all-be-all.”

    Oh I know. Spring training last season was like living through complete denial.

    It was very clear that there was no way Hughes should have gone north. There was something very, very wrong. He just looked like Hamels and Bumgarner.

    But despite how he was throwing they kept him on the team with those ridiculous excuses.

    It was as if their plan was based on some kind of magic happening. Hughes was going to suddenly just return back to normal. Even as he got shellacked in the bigs he got sent out there. He had no tools to compete.

    This spring – seems like the same thing happened all over – but now with a pitcher who they gave up Montero for rather than just a signing bonus.

    I’m really at a loss here.

  57. Yank 97 March 31st, 2012 at 12:36 am

    “Rothschild with Hughes and now Pineda forcing through their issues in successive springs isn’t exactly looking like Dave Duncan now, is he?”

    He has always been overrated here. If he can’t even observe a guy overthrowing with his shoulder flying all over from the dugout, what good is he? Same thing happened with Soriano in that Twins game last year. Shoulder flying all over and he was getting rocked and not even once did anyone check on him.

    That isn’t on Girardi. Larry has 1 job – to make sure his pitchers are doing well.

  58. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 12:36 am

    ZMan, I don’t think Joe is making the decisions unilaterally at all, but his comments are stupid and so was making this ST start (for pete’s sake, a ST start) a big one.

  59. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 12:37 am

    Wang and Hughes both got outs in their respective disaster years in ST. Both had better ERA’s than Pineda. Hughes struck out 7 blue jays with a new found slider that never went anywhere. Everything looked cheery. Just some dead arm, his velocity will be fine. Brrrrzt

  60. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 12:38 am

    Perhaps the Yankees think that they would not be displaying faith in the youngsters if they held them back…….I’m not excusing it, just trying to get into their heads.

  61. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 12:39 am

    Marc Carig ? @MarcCarig

    I have a feeling that the “damaged goods” theory is also being pushed by those who tweeted about TJ surgery after a shoulder injury.

  62. Yank 97 March 31st, 2012 at 12:40 am

    “Wang and Hughes both got outs in their respective disaster years in ST. Both had better ERA’s than Pineda. Hughes struck out 7 blue jays with a new found slider that never went anywhere. Everything looked cheery. Just some dead arm, his velocity will be fine. Brrrrzt”

    Yep. I wouldn’t put it past them that the fact that Pineda was getting “outs” caused them to delay looking into his velocity further. It was indicative of a far bigger problem, yet they probably were content to let it go as long as he was performing decently enough.

    Except Wang and Hughes got destroyed once real games started and Pineda probably would have done the same.

  63. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 12:40 am

    I don’t recall thinking it was a travesty that Phil was coming north; only now can we see it obviously was a disaster. I do remember that Jays game……..and the slider, lol.

  64. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 12:41 am

    Getting outs is like the last thing you worry about in spring. For pitchers its how their stuff looks. Stay healthy. Mechanics. Work on stuff.

  65. CB March 31st, 2012 at 12:42 am

    “At what point do you think it would have been appropriate to intervene? Arm strength comes over time. They were waiting for it. When did you want them to start panicking?”

    Panicking? This is just cheap rhetoric. There is clearly a major problem with an incredibly important asset and the team has no idea what the root cause of that problem is.

    Again – you know very little about this pitcher. It’s very clear from your comments.

    I’m just saying that so we can be up front on the conversation and not waste time pretending.

    He’s looked nothing – and I repeat – nothing like he did last season.

    They went through the same thing with Hughes last spring. Last year he also said over and over nothing was wrong. But he physically couldn’t do what he normally would.

    And what makes this really bad – and why I’m so perturbed now – is that the Yanks made such a big deal about this start.

    They basically told Pineda – throw harder or your going to the minors.

    And yet they themselves seem to have no clue what the root cause of the problem was.

    How was Pineda supposed to magically produce more velocity.

    Girardi is now suggesting Pineda may have the same problem Hughes had. You think? He’s looked like that all spring.

    And if that’s the case his arm is physically unable to produce more velocity.

    But he’s still in the “competition” to be in the rotation as long as he can manufacture more velocity out of thing air?

    This is just ridiculous. This whole thing just feels like the organization pulling together in a CYA move to do everything possible to avoid the embarrassment of trading Montero for a pitcher how has to start the season in extended spring training because his arm isn’t right.

  66. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:42 am

    Right. Work on stuff. Which takes time.

  67. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 12:43 am

    Any schmo can get outs over a small sample. Aaron Small was undefeated over like 11 games, that sure went somewhere.

  68. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:44 am

    I’ll ask again, when would be an appropriate time to yank a player in spring training after a long layoff where he didn’t touch a ball?

  69. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:45 am

    After Pineda’s first start?

    His second start?

    His third?

    When would you have done the MRI?

  70. Bronx Jeers March 31st, 2012 at 12:46 am

    “Cashman is a public embarassment to the organization with his cheating and a serial philanderer who could endanger the safety of everyone in it if Louise Neathway beats the extortion rap then decides to hurt someone in the organization who could be anyone from a security guard to Derek Jeter.”

    —————————————————————————

    Late-nite Lohud rarely disappoints…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRzSc8Mkr8c

  71. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 12:46 am

    CB, I sure hope you’re not right about the last part. Cashman has consistently said that the trade wasn’t about 2012, but the future…….so if that’s the case, why the hell would he allow his manager to treat Pineda like this? Why the hell would he care what the media thinks anyway? If that’s his mentality, he really needs to go. There is absolutely no reason to be embarrassed about a pitcher being sent to AAA, no matter who he was traded for.

  72. Melk Man March 31st, 2012 at 12:48 am

    Where do you draw the line though? Perhaps they were trying to motivate Pineda and didn’t want to coddle him. They were very specific in what they wanted to see. Were they supposed to hold back and not say anything just to avoid him injuring himself? Sure there is the competitor aspect, but there is also sensibility and being smart.

    Yankees have always been very passive in dealing with problems and seem to try and avoid them or hope they figure things out naturally with time.

    And like others have said, Girardi is a puppet for Cashman. Cash could have diffused this very easily – he made as much of a deal about velocity as anyone. Then again, the day the trade was made, he told Klapisch it was an “enormous risk” to make the trade and Montero is Piazza to him.

  73. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:50 am

    22 year old shows up to camp, hasn’t touched a ball all winter.

    He sits 89-91 in his first start and touches 93.

    He trots into the dugout and Girardi clutches his arm and says, “Are you alright? How do you feel?”

    22 year old says, “I feel fine. Little rusty. Didn’t touch a ball this winter.”

    Manager says, “BS. I know something’s wrong. You’re not going back out there for inning two. You’re getting an MRI”

  74. Melk Man March 31st, 2012 at 12:53 am

    I also echo what others have said about Rothschild. This is his baby. He knows more about pitching than everyone else in the organization combined. Mechanics, velocity, grips, shoulders flying open, dead arms, etc. are what he is getting millions to evaluate.

    He also said he deals with pitchers 1 on 1 before every start and discuss things with them. He could have diffused this as well.

    Maybe everyone agreed the best course of action was to let him air it out tonight and see if it helped the velocity come back.

  75. luis March 31st, 2012 at 12:53 am

    Guys,

    To be fair, we owe this management the rebuilding of the farm and the shift in policy from FA based strategy to a smart draft, IFA and intelligent FA signings. But something happened on the way. 2008 made a dent deeper in Cashman’s mind than we previously thought. Even though he publicly said that he intended to grow from within, he didn’t trust his own prospects as a result of the 08 fiasco in his eyes. Because when the moment came that he had enough assets to do just that, he traded the crown jewel of the system, in spite that he had a farm filled with pitching prospects and enough pitching depth to go to war with.

    I think arrogance drove this trade. And arrogance has derailed it, they needed to prove that they were right, so they pushed the kid to the brink. Turning their heads at the obvious evidence that the kid wasn’t right. They needed him to perform, because they weren’t willing to handle the potential backlash if this move went south.

    Therefore CB their passiveness to react at what was a very clear sign that the pitcher wasn’t right.

    It’s just speculation of course, but i can’t think of any other reason for them not to act. The alternative is complete and utter incompetence.

  76. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 12:54 am

    Just how many times do people have to ask a player how he feels before, during and after games only to have them tell you they feel fine? What do you do? Stick a gun in their ear and drag them to the hospital. Huge difference between sore and pain. As far as “red flag”, that a worn out, catch-all cliche.

  77. scuzzles March 31st, 2012 at 12:55 am

    Nobody is asking…can the trade be voided…damaged goods??

  78. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 12:55 am

    Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:27 am

    So there is no way he gets back his velocity anytime soon?

    ——————————-

    With this organization why have that belief. Does Joba throw as hard as he did when he first came up? Look how long it took for Hughes to regain velocity. Hopefully this is just a bump in the road for MP but when it comes to the Yankees would anyone be surprised if it took a while for the velo to come back.

  79. DaveD March 31st, 2012 at 12:55 am

    “As far as “red flag”, that a worn out, catch-all cliche.”

    The GM just said again tonight the velocity was a red flag

  80. CB March 31st, 2012 at 12:56 am

    Brett,

    Just watching Pineda it was very clear that he was at high likelihood to have the kind of dead arm Hughes had.

    If that’s the case it takes at minimum weeks and weeks to come back from. There was no chance he could go north if that’s what he had.

    If fact the only way he could have gone north was if he was intentionally not throwing as hard as he could. But the Yankees should have been able to know that definitively.

    If that wasn’t the case then the only possibilities were that he had a massive mechanical problem or he was injured.

    In any case other than he’s intentionally not throwing hard – giving him incentives to throw harder in order to make the team was the worst thing they could possibly do as that increased his risk for getting injured worse.

    So the root cause of his problem should have been determined earlier. And he should have been told a week ago that he was going to stay in extended spring training to make sure his arm was ok in terms of strength.

    And this start should never have been made out to be a “big start” of some kind.

    The main issue is that this start should have never been made out to be all important and they should have been far more judicious with how they treated a critical asset.

    As I’ve said over and over – he has looked absolutely nothing like he did last season. If the yankees couldn’t determine why definitively then there was no way they should have kept him in a competition that was going to incentivize him to do things which would increase his risk for injury.

  81. DaveD March 31st, 2012 at 12:56 am

    “Look how long it took for Hughes to regain velocity.”

    And it remains to be seen if it is sustainable – both for a season and for 7 innings of a game consistently.

  82. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 12:57 am

    scuzzles March 31st, 2012 at 12:55 am

    Nobody is asking…can the trade be voided…damaged goods??

    ——————–

    That’s the running joke on every blog/board right now.

  83. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 12:58 am

    DaveD March 31st, 2012 at 12:56 am

    “Look how long it took for Hughes to regain velocity.”

    And it remains to be seen if it is sustainable – both for a season and for 7 innings of a game consistently.

    ————————

    That’s true we have to see if he can hold up to the rigors of taking the ball every five days and maintain his heater.

  84. CB March 31st, 2012 at 12:59 am

    “The GM just said again tonight the velocity was a red flag”

    Yes he did. Which is why all of this is so inconsistent and such a mess.

  85. luis March 31st, 2012 at 12:59 am

    Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 12:57 am

    scuzzles March 31st, 2012 at 12:55 am

    Nobody is asking…can the trade be voided…damaged goods??

    ——————–

    That’s the running joke on every blog/board right now.

    ===========================

    Mariners Polcicy: All sales are final, no returns or refunds accepted.

  86. m March 31st, 2012 at 12:59 am

    Girardi could have done his pregame in Mandarin, and Pineda still would have been overthrowing.

    Because he’s probably been trying to find the missing velocity. He knows how good everyone has looked so he wanted to go for it this last start.

    It’s not always the coaching staff’s fault. Things happen.

  87. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 1:02 am

    CB,

    I would agree that they could have put him in extended spring training earlier than this final start but maybe they were preoccupied with him learning the changeup and since he was doing so well with it against major league hitters, they kept him with the team. I don’t think he’s injured. I think he’s sore. Did they stretch him out too far? Possibly, but it’s spring training and maybe it takes more time to distinguish between dead arm and basic off-season rust.

  88. luis March 31st, 2012 at 1:03 am

    It’s not always the coaching staff’s fault. Things happen.

    Very good point M, but isn’t the job of the coaches if they see something wrong to go out and stop it before it gets worse?

  89. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:03 am

    In any case other than he’s intentionally not throwing hard – giving him incentives to throw harder in order to make the team was the worst thing they could possibly do as that increased his risk for getting injured worse.

    So the root cause of his problem should have been determined earlier.

    This is the problem with Cashman trying to use a fangraphs article to show that Pineda starts slow. Nevermind the article was based on the first 10 pitches of a selected start, but if they believed it they could have asked him. And if he said he was holding back they could have told him, “When your arm gets loose during the start, try to throw as fast as you can.” Then when it was obvious he was not holding back, they could have been like, “This velocity thing is a concern, Pineda will not be in the rotation until we figure this out.”

    But everyone wants to be like “Jamie Moyer can throw 85 and get outs, why can’t pineda lose 5 mph and still start?”

  90. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:04 am

    Its like they had traded for an alien life form.

  91. CB March 31st, 2012 at 1:05 am

    “Because he’s probably been trying to find the missing velocity. He knows how good everyone has looked so he wanted to go for it this last start. ”

    Which is why it was so critical to determine the root cause of what was going on. If you don’t know that root cause then you can’t figure out what’s best to do.

    That’s a baseball evaluation function. That’s the coaching staff and organizations responsibility. They have to be able to figure those things out. That’s a key part of their job.

    And again – it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out maybe Pineda is searching for that missing velocity. And if he’s doing that he is at risk for getting injured. If we don’t fully understand what’s going on then we should pull him out of the competition and tell him we’re going to watch him longer down in Florida to make sure he’s ok. There’s time – let’s see how he does. Once he’s definitely ok – you’ll be back in the bigs.

    Instead they did the exact opposite.

    And finally m – how many times has this happenned with the team and young pitching. I folllow minor league baseball and prospects closely around baseball. I know the frailty of young pitching.

    But with this organization it’s just gotten ridiculous. What makes this so bad is that it comes one year after the debacle of Hughes last spring.

    At some point it’s incompetence.

  92. DaveD March 31st, 2012 at 1:05 am

    “Yes he did. Which is why all of this is so inconsistent and such a mess.”

    Yep. So Cashman is cognizant of his velocity issues, yet he has publicly harped on them all spring. That combined with his manager’s announcement that this is a “big start” obviously caused Pineda to overthrow to impress his GM/manager.

    And Rothschild, a veteran PC, didn’t have the awareness to specifically tell him NOT to overthrow, knowing full-well the consequences of doing so? And was he taking a nap when his shoulder was flying open and laboriously trying to find his velocity in a dangerous fashion out on the mound for 70 pitches?

    The question is, who WASN’T involved in this mess, because everyone seems to have their hands on it in some way.

  93. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 1:07 am

    Agreed, keep Cashman off the internet, and not just whatever schitzoskank.com site he found the buxom blond on.

    (as things look worse I have to pivot to a harsh anti-Cashman stance)

  94. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 1:08 am

    Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 12:45 am

    After Pineda’s first start?

    His second start?

    His third?

    When would you have done the MRI?

    —————–

    When it was clear there was a problem.
    Joba comes into ST 09 with low velocity and the Yankess say everything is fine.
    Phil comes into ST 11 with low velocity and the Yankees say no need to worry it will be there.
    MP comes into ST 12 with low velocity and the Yankees say they aren’t concerned.

    This isn’t the first time this has happened

  95. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:08 am

    And Rothschild, a veteran PC, didn’t have the awareness to specifically tell him NOT to overthrow, knowing full-well the consequences of doing so?

    But of course, doing this means little. In Dirk Hayhirst’s book they talk about spring training, and one of the Padres coaches loved the radar gun so much they nicknamed him Wyatt Earp. So when Hayhirst and others came time to throw a bullpen infront of him, the coaches said, “Throw 80%”. And Hayhirst and his pals threw 110% to generate velocity, because that is what Earp wanted to see.

  96. Melk Man March 31st, 2012 at 1:08 am

    This is the problem with Cashman trying to use a fangraphs article to show that Pineda starts slow.

    ———————–

    Ha – I forgot about that. Yet another instance of them totally missing the point. Their passiveness is both comical and alarming.

    It’s like they were content to let him be a lesser pitcher just to avoid dealing with a potential problem.

  97. CB March 31st, 2012 at 1:09 am

    “but maybe they were preoccupied with him learning the changeup and since he was doing so well with it against major league hitters, they kept him with the team. ”

    If they were preoccupied by this issue and then judged what to do by him doing “so well” against major league hitters then they are unimaginably dumb.

    I can’t emphasize this enough – him getting outs this spring is immaterial. It doesn’t matter at all unless you have a strong understanding of the root cause for why he is missing velocity.

    They spent day in and out with him. If they couldn’t determine the root cause then it was imperative they remove him from the rotation competition and keep him in EST to observe him.

    My goodness – if their thinking truly was he’s getting outs that’s enough then they are just clueless.

  98. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:09 am

    A player knows and shows that he knows the difference between sore and pain. Doesn’t mean that they’ll admit to the pain. No need to go as far back as listening to players talking about having to help lift Mantle out of a cab, watch him limp into the clubhouse to spend 2 hours of being taped from foot to crotch on both sides and tell everyone he feels fine. Pettitte hasn’t had a day in his life that his arm wasn’t aching. some players have an unreal thresh hold for pain. Koufax is another. If a player tells you he feels fine, are you going to call him a liar?

  99. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 1:10 am

    luis March 31st, 2012 at 12:59 am

    Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 12:57 am

    scuzzles March 31st, 2012 at 12:55 am

    Nobody is asking…can the trade be voided…damaged goods??

    ——————–

    That’s the running joke on every blog/board right now.

    ===========================

    Mariners Polcicy: All sales are final, no returns or refunds accepted.

    ———————————————-

    LOL :D

  100. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 1:10 am

    It’s not the first time this has happened, but unlike Joba and Phil before him, Pineda will be shut down, put in AAA and paced so that he can rebuild arm strength.

    The Yankees didn’t cause the dead arm.

    It’s part of the deal, apparently.

    So adjust…and they will.

  101. Melk Man March 31st, 2012 at 1:12 am

    This is another reason why should have kept Jesus. There is far less of a chance that they screw him up or that he gets injured. Really, the player for player value is irrelevant when you factor in this organization dealing with a pitching asset.

  102. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:12 am

    Koufax is another.

    And his career was fairly short. So not really great example.

  103. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:13 am

    They don’t need Pineda to tell them he is hurting, they could simply see not-improving velocity & bad mechanics and be like ‘Duh’.

    I assume they had someone with a radar gun, and someone charting pitches. They could figure out his average velocity. Some goobers online did it and he has been consistently around 91 mph average the entire spring. 3-4 mph less than his average last year, maybe they should be more than concerned. They could be cautious.

  104. luis March 31st, 2012 at 1:14 am

    GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:09 am

    Nope, but they didn’t react to what they were seeing and witnessing right in front of their eyes. That’s what they were paid for. I don’t know a single pitcher that would voluntarily relinquish the ball. Managers and coaches have to be able to see beyond the obvious and act upon it.

  105. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:14 am

    Somewhere along the line, players need to be held responsible for telling somebody in charge when they have pain and not just aches and soreness.

  106. CB March 31st, 2012 at 1:14 am

    “This is the problem with Cashman trying to use a fangraphs article to show that Pineda starts slow. Nevermind the article was based on the first 10 pitches of a selected start, but if they believed it they could have asked him. ”

    I don’t even know what to say here. If they actually believed an article from fangraphs and took it seriously they truly are idiots.

    Dave Cameron isn’t a statistician, knows next to nothing about research methodology and is little more than entertainment.

    That article was completely phenomenological-as most of sabermetrics is. What was critical in this situation was understanding the cause-not describing a pattern and saying hey these patterns of past and future have a resemblance.

    Asking the questions you posed and getting to the bottom of why was what was important.

    And that Jamie Moyer argument – oh boy… I don’t even know what to say.

    I can only think people didn’t watch this player pitch last season. He was scintillating. That fastball was absolutely enormous – not only hard but filled with life.

    Even his slider this spring hasn’t looked right. It’s not as crisp as it was last season.

  107. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 1:16 am

    But is it unheard of for a pitcher to begin spring training 3-4 mph less than his average in the prior year only to end spring training maybe only 1 mph off or maybe even at full strength?

    I just wonder at what point you end the observation period.

    He was incrementally improving on velocity in his first three starts.

  108. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:17 am

    Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:12 am
    Koufax is another.

    And his career was fairly short. So not really great example.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    How is it a bad example. he pitched for 5 years with an arthritic elbow.

  109. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:17 am

    That fastball was absolutely enormous – not only hard but filled with life.

    Which is like… for those opposed to the trade, one of the bright spots in the player they got back. ‘Well we lost Montero, but Pineda has a 95 mph fastball with sink/run/cut that he can command’. And then its missing in spring but don’t worry he is just holding back :roll:

    As Bret said, atleast this time they have the resources to go out there with 5 guys not named Pineda to give him all the time in the world to rest. Hopefully just some shoulder fatigue and he can sit in EST and AA for 2 months.

  110. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:19 am

    How is it a bad example. he pitched for 5 years with an arthritic elbow.

    Its bad example because Koufax ruined his arm. If he were pitching in ye modern times he probably would have had 12 tommy john surgeries.

  111. ZMAN March 31st, 2012 at 1:20 am

    Cashman’s interpretation of the Fangraphs article is exactly what people are afraid of when dealing with sabremetrics – that they will use it as a substitute for watching the guy.

    Oh, he started slow in his 1 year career sample – who cares if he looks like a shell of himself, there is a history of this!

  112. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 1:21 am

    “Somewhere along the line, players need to be held responsible for telling somebody in charge when they have pain and not just aches and soreness.”

    Agreed, but that somewhere may be further down the line than when the guy is competing for a spot for a team be just got traded to for their blue-chip prospect. I’m willing to cut the late Pineda some slack here.

  113. CB March 31st, 2012 at 1:21 am

    “I just wonder at what point you end the observation period.”

    Until you fully understand what is going on. Or in other words – for as long as it takes to accumulate the data needed.

    This is not a veteran pitcher. This is not Andy Pettite. This is a kid who is in his second camp.

    Remember – Pineda has never really even been in a regular spring training. He has no set pattern of where he really understands what his body is going to do or how best to get ready.

    Last spring he was unexpectedly thrust into the chance to make the bigs. And he did. This is his first camp after throwing a full big league load. We know pitchers can struggle the following year. We know that the last thing he’d want is to get sent back to AAA.

    In other words – judgement is required here. And the Yankees don’t inspire confidence in this departement.

    The Hughes debacle was only one year ago.

  114. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:21 am

    But is it unheard of for a pitcher to begin spring training 3-4 mph less than his average in the prior year only to end spring training maybe only 1 mph off or maybe even at full strength?

    I think probably yes its unheard of. Thats such a huge gulf. Think about it. A guy who throws 91 average would have to start the spring at 87 AVERAGE to have the same symptoms. A guy throwing 85-89 mph fastballs would be alarming.

    Pineda never increased his average this spring outside of going from maybe 90 to 91 between his first and 2nd start. All he did was add a smattering of 93 and 94s. But for the most part he consistently sat 90-91. After his third start I’d be like ‘Yo whats up, dude?’

  115. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:22 am

    luis March 31st, 2012 at 1:14 am
    GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:09 am

    Nope, but they didn’t react to what they were seeing and witnessing right in front of their eyes. That’s what they were paid for. I don’t know a single pitcher that would voluntarily relinquish the ball. Managers and coaches have to be able to see beyond the obvious and act upon it.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    What is it that they were supposed to react to? Because his speed was off early in spring training? Because somebody “grimaced” when he threw a pitch? Hell, Ryan did that for 27 years and grunted so loud you could hear him in the upper deck? He wasn’t touching or rubbing his shoulder or trying to manipulate it like he couldn’t get loose? Those are “red flags” that you can see.

  116. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:25 am

    Koufax’ arm was ruined the second he banged it on the ground sliding into 2nd base in 1962. Pitching didn’t help it.

  117. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:26 am

    Then again, I wouldn’t trust the Yankees to actually get to the bottom of it, they are the same ones that had Hughes do whatever and then pitch a bullpen with a radar gun and then still started him

  118. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 1:26 am

    Bret The Hitman……I think what you been attempting to convey is the more likely situation…….Shut him down, maybe an cortisone / steroid anti-inflammatory shot and then begin a long toss regimen….Extend spring training for a few weeks so he stays in the warm sun……Guys, look at how many starting pitchers will be either on the DL or will be staying at their clubs training complexes when the season starts next week……My goodnes, it’s all part of the game of baseball………Granted it’s unsettling for us all, only differing in our personal reasons as to why…..

  119. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 1:27 am

    The comparison to Hughes is fair because both seem to have dead arm where velocity is down but there is no structural damage.

    The main difference here is Hughes was not improving velocity incrementally. I seem to remember he was stagnant in the high 80′s.

    And the other difference is the team won’t push Pineda through dead arm like they did with Hughes. Pineda will be shut down and put in AAA.

    So they’re learning. And the dead arm is not their fault. It’s just part of the deal.

    Maybe they were late to catch it and they mishandled things in this start but I think they caught it before it got worse.

  120. CB March 31st, 2012 at 1:27 am

    GB7,

    You are comparing veterans that know their bodies and have been in many camps with a kid who has never had a “normal” spring.

    You react to what you see first and foremost.

    He has not looked right the entire spring. Not close. I saw it from his first start. Couldn’t pin down what it was – that start his front shoulder kept flying over so I figured that could be it. Let’s see.

    But the progression pattern has grown more and more concerning. His velocity didn’t suggest that his arm strength was building as one would hope.

    The last thing you want to do in that situation is given him a reason for trying to prove his way onto the team by trying to reach back for velocity he just can’t produce. All that is going to do is increase his risk for injury – particularly a shoulder injury.

  121. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:28 am

    The main difference here is Hughes was not improving velocity incrementally. I seem to remember he was stagnant in the high 80?s.

    Nah, it was the same. Averaging 88-89, but he touched 91-92. Pineda did not improve his velocity incrementally.

  122. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 1:29 am

    So they’re learning. Maybe they were late to catch it and they mishandled things in this start

    ———————–

    Not taking this out on you but how many things have to go wrong with their pitchers until they catch on.

  123. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:30 am

    The incremental improvements are an illusion based on him hitting 94 twice in a start. That he was able to touch a number that was still below his average velocity from the prior year was touted as an achievement, but Hughes was able to hit 92-93 a few times in starts last spring. The end results were the same. Stagnant AVERAGE velocity.

    Pineda won’t get thrown to the major league wolves like Hughes was though.

  124. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 1:30 am

    Pat M, knowing what you know now, with Pineda’s health a question mark, with Andy Pettitte working his way back, etc., what would you set as the over/under on wins that Pineda will get as a NY Yankee in 2012?

  125. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:31 am

    Pat, I mentioned extended ST over an hour ago. They’ll stick Pineda and Cabral is the USS MRI Yankee and check everything, tell him to rest, shoot him full of anti-inflammitories and check him again in 2 weeks.

  126. CB March 31st, 2012 at 1:32 am

    The biggest issue with Pineda wasn’t even the quantitative drop in his fastball velocity – it was the qualitative difference in his fastball. It just looked like an entirely different pitch.

    The difference in velocity doesn’t due justice to how much life he’s lost on the ball.

    The same was also true of Hughes last season. But I’d say this spring with Pineda it’s even more apparent because his fastball was just so fantastic.

    And as I’ve said – his slider isn’t the same either. It’s just different. His stuff is different in its quality.

  127. Bronx Jeers March 31st, 2012 at 1:33 am

    The late Pineda?

    I had a “life-threatening shoulder pain” joke coming but it just doesn’t work as well now that he’s dead.

  128. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:33 am

    While he’s on est, give him his own pitching coach not named Contreras or Conners and fix his delievery….whether they bring Justin Pope or Scott Aaldred in.

  129. luis March 31st, 2012 at 1:34 am

    GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:22 am

    luis March 31st, 2012 at 1:14 am
    GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:09 am

    Nope, but they didn’t react to what they were seeing and witnessing right in front of their eyes. That’s what they were paid for. I don’t know a single pitcher that would voluntarily relinquish the ball. Managers and coaches have to be able to see beyond the obvious and act upon it.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    What is it that they were supposed to react to? Because his speed was off early in spring training? Because somebody “grimaced” when he threw a pitch? Hell, Ryan did that for 27 years and grunted so loud you could hear him in the upper deck? He wasn’t touching or rubbing his shoulder or trying to manipulate it like he couldn’t get loose? Those are “red flags” that you can see.

    ==================================

    He was a kid, he may not know how his body reacts or should feel. The red flag was the lack of velocity. They are the guys that are supposed to know . If he were a veteran, yeah you defer to him, but i don’t think that’s the case with a rookie.

  130. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 1:34 am

    I pray that Pineda is ok, and if he has to be shut down for the season, so be it, but they better start learning from their obvious mistake.

  131. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:36 am

    CB, I’d bet Pineda has been pitching 12-15 years now. He should know the difference.

  132. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 1:37 am

    Nick in SF….Over under on wins for Pineda……9.5

  133. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:38 am

    CB, I’d bet Pineda has been pitching 12-15 years now. He should know the difference.

    He has only been throwing 95+ for 2 years though.

  134. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 1:38 am

    Rich in NJ……What is your injury zone again ????

  135. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 1:39 am

    Pat

    Until about 26.

  136. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 1:39 am

    ” Nick in SF….Over under on wins for Pineda……9.5″

    Hmmmmm… which side of that bet would you take of you had to choose one?

  137. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:40 am

    I guess that Detroit should have known that Verlander was in pain when his velocity disappeared in season or Righetti should be strung up because Lincecum’s speed mysteriously disappeared one year and he should have known better.

  138. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:42 am

    Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:38 am
    CB, I’d bet Pineda has been pitching 12-15 years now. He should know the difference.

    He has only been throwing 95+ for 2 years though.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    That has nothing to do with it. another flying bucket of crap by you.

  139. luis March 31st, 2012 at 1:42 am

    GB7,

    I honestly don’t know…You make a very good point, but still maybe they weren’t cautious enough?

  140. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 1:43 am

    I guess that Detroit should have known that Verlander was in pain when his velocity disappeared in season or Righetti should be strung up because Lincecum’s speed mysteriously disappeared one year and he should have known better.

    Verlander lost 1 mph off his average fastball, not 4. Lincecum lost his velocity and has never regained it, so thats like… not exactly the best case scenario. Lincecum always had more than the fastball though. He always had the curve and the split change and then developed a slider. Not to mention the incredible delivery.

    Pineda’s fastball is one of his defining weapons. Its what got him to the bigs.

  141. luis March 31st, 2012 at 1:43 am

    Good night everyone

  142. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 1:45 am

    I’m done. Time for the beautiful Cinnamon Carter and Combat/12 O’Clock High.

  143. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 1:45 am

    It wasn’t just Pineda’s velo, it has been the quality of his stuff. He became a crafty righty overnight.

  144. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 1:45 am

    GB…..I wonder what it would have been like if there was such a thing as a blog back in 1984 when Yogi turned Rags into a closer ???? Nick in SF, if there isn’t any damage which I doubt, I’d be on the overs…….Rich, thanks, I find your perimeters as a good benchmark for pitchers……

  145. tucker March 31st, 2012 at 1:46 am

    Watching a replay of the Rangers-Rockies game on MLB Network. Yu Darvish looks far better than Dice-k ever has. Nine K’s through five innings, knee-buckling curve.

  146. CB March 31st, 2012 at 1:46 am

    “I’d bet Pineda has been pitching 12-15 years now. He should know the difference.”

    GB7,

    This is the big leagues. It’s different. You know that.

    This is the first spring after he threw a full major league load last year. He has never been through that kind of workload and stress. How his body would react isn’t something that anyone – including Pineda himself – could predict.

    This is a largely new experience for him.

    And I can tell you he just doesn’t look right. It’s been very clear all camp. He’s just not right. He’s not. You can see it by the life on the ball.

    Part of successfully developing a young pitcher is helping them develop physically and adjust to the workload/stress of pitching at the highest level in the world.

  147. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 1:53 am

    Pat M, all this talk tonight has me feeling pessimistic about Pineda… I would bet you 5 Ritter Sport bars tonight that Pineda wins under 9.5 games for the Yanks this season. But we’d have to agree to the terms tonight, before the MRI and what follows. A bit of a shot in the dark.

  148. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 1:58 am

    Nick in SF……Done deal

  149. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 2:01 am

    Alright, Pat M… I think this is the first time we’ve gone head to head in a wager???? Under 9.5 wins for Pineda, for whatever reason, I win. Over 9.5 wins, you win.

    I will not mind paying off this bet if it’s a loser for me, that will mean good things for Pineda and the Yanks.

  150. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 2:15 am

    Understood Nick…..It’s more of an emotional bet, but I think Pineda might be hurt but he’s not injured……We’ll know soon enough…..

  151. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 2:20 am

    Alright… Arsenal -1 vs. Queens Park Rangers is my pick of the morning. Off to pass out now, goodnight one and all.

  152. Patrick March 31st, 2012 at 2:24 am

    Nick, hoping for between 6 and 9 wins huh?

  153. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 2:26 am

    That would be a tasty middle.

  154. Locke March 31st, 2012 at 2:43 am

    Come on guys, this is way too overblown. Remember a week ago when everybody was saying the Joba almost died and wasn’t going to ever pitch again?

    I dont think this outing for Pineda was close to as bad as you all think. He admitted the soreness and now we can put him in AAA. He can get his arm strength back up, work on his off speed stuff, and continue to develop. We don’t need him in the rotation and now he will be cost controlled for another year. The Yankees will still win the division and maybe Pineda will be lights out by the time we hit the playoffs.

    I just can’t believe the fans booed him off the mound. That’s rediculous.

  155. Locke March 31st, 2012 at 2:45 am

    *that Joba

  156. jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 5:25 am

    Hopefully Pineda just came into camp completely out of throwing shape and this is just some inflammation from trying to get it going too fast.

  157. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 6:28 am

    Morning folks,

    I missed all of this last night. Let’s hope it’s not serious…by the sounds of it, this is the first outing his shoulder feels sore. It must be very disappointing for the guy. Just shut him down for now, and work it out later.

    Thankfully we have so much rotation depth, Garcia is pitching well, Pettitte is in the wings, and Phelps/Warren/Mitchell, I think we’ll be fine this season. Let’s just get Pineda healthy and back into last year’s form.

  158. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 6:32 am

    Not sure if this was stated all ready, via RAB on Pineda – “For what it’s worth, his pre-trade MRI was clean.”

  159. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 6:36 am

    And now there’s an extra spot in the bullpen, right?

  160. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 31st, 2012 at 7:29 am

    From the George King article:

    “Ever since the beginning of last year’s second half, Pineda has been rolling downhill.
    In addition to a shrinking fastball, he now has a possible shoulder injury.
    His fastball went from 97 mph to 91, and he won once for the Mariners after July 4.
    After finishing last year at 270 pounds, Pineda admitted to weighing 280 for his initial Yankees camp.
    As bad as his velocity and control were, Pineda’s body language resembled Kei Igawa on a bad day. After each missed pitch, hit or walk, the broad shoulders slumped.
    Even if the shoulder soreness is routine, it’s likely the Yankees will place Pineda on the DL to start the season.”

    The Mariners have won this trade. Montero is not a walking injury and the rocket scientist Cashman didn’t pick up on “subtle” hints that something was physically wrong with Pineda: Fastball shrinking and winning only once since July 4.

    Cashman should be fired for this stupid trade. Montero flamed out after half a season and he wants to trade a franchise hitter for a reclamation project. If George Steinbrenner were alive, he would fire this clown. Cashman has no fear to make idiotic decisions.

  161. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 31st, 2012 at 7:33 am

    Pineda came in spring camp overweight because he realized he has a problem and most likely was stress eating. Cashman has to be accountable for his blunder. He should be packing his bags.

  162. G. Love March 31st, 2012 at 7:35 am

    I hope if this trade goes as it looks right now that Cashman gets canned for it.

    We need a new voice in the GM office and someone who if they know they can’t scout pitching will fill their boardroom with people who can and not people who don’t threaten their Napoleonic ego.

    From the way he handled this trade to the way he treated DH like it was a bargain position where the cheapest old vet who would fall in line was the one he would sign…it’s time for the bean counter to go.

    Clearly, by all the stories about his extracurricular activities that have come out, his mind has not been on his job and his family.

    That aside, he traded a beast who in September came up, energized the fanbase, excited them for a pitcher who hasn’t had his stuff since July.

    I almost feel like he dealt him because he hated the fans were starting to love him. I know that sounds emotional and ridiculous but when you look at some of the choices Cashman’s made in his life of late, “emotional” & “ridiculous” certainly come to mind.

  163. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 31st, 2012 at 7:39 am

    Aroid should take Cashman shopping. At least Cashman would get nice clothes:

    http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesi.....f=obinsite

  164. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 7:42 am

    First, I think we need to wait and see what the MRI shows.

    Second, while it is important that he had soreness and not pain could be significant, depending on what the question was that was put to him, or how it was put to him. English is not his first language, so there is room for misinterpretation there.

    Third, the Yankees had expressed all along that there was some level of concern due to Hughes’ situation last spring. They have said they have been asking him all along if he was experiencing any pain or discomfort and Pineda told them, nothing out of the ordinary. Why should they not believe him? What is the course of action? MRI after two starts because his velocity was down? Shut him down immediately? If the player says he’s not hurt, then you assume he has to build armstrength and you keep sending him out, right?

    Contrary to what some people were saying last night, there had been incremental or periodic spikes in the velocity, which is why even up to yesterday before game time there were people commenting here that perhaps last night Pineda might show a little more velocity. And I’m not sure about those who said his slider was off, because I recall reading how his slider was an effective pitch and his best of the spring. I don’t put any weight on the “grimace” because pitchers in mid-motion grimace all the time. That’s not necessarily an indicator that something is wrong.

    Perhaps Pineda’s ability to get people out in spite of the lack of velocity and the cutting of the fastball gave a false impression that all was okay even if it wasn’t. But we still don’t know the extent of this and it’s probably not a good idea to jump to conclusions.

    In addition, what the Yankees say for public consumption may have very little to relation to what is said behind the closed doors of the clubhouse. If they thought he was hurt, and that it was not a mechanical issue, or if Pineda hinted that he was more sore than usual at any point during the outing, they would have not had him throw 71 pitches hurt. What boggles my mind here sometimes is how anyone is supposed to know the extent of soreness a player feels if he says he is fine and continues to say he is fine? Bret asked last night, and it’s a good question, where is the line? When do you doubt the player?

    In any event, I hope that this was just more sore than usual, but not an injury, and that the Yankees will indeed DL him and let him come along a lot more slowly. They do have that luxury and they should take advantage of it.

  165. MTU March 31st, 2012 at 7:42 am

    Well that settles the Rotation question for now doesn’t it.

  166. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 7:44 am

    I suspect that the media will sensationalize the “possible” injury of Pineda, before tests and physical examination are done, much like they did a week ago when they reported that Joba had lost so much blood they were afraid for his life.

  167. Melkmanisinhotlanta March 31st, 2012 at 7:45 am

    Notice, Cashman wins the world series because he thrives on Stick Michael’s past work and buys CC Sabathia, and Tex message lol. Wow, what a genius lol. Once Jeter, Mo, and Andy retire, the soul of the team is gone and we are left with Cashman players. The 25 year world series drought will begin. Cashman will be fired three years after the core three retire.

  168. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 7:49 am

    Morning MTU. :)

  169. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 7:50 am

    Villa-

    Thanks for expressing my opinions too. I just read your post. With all the coaches and guest players in camp, these players are asked morning, noon, and night if they are feeling OK.

    Pain behind the shoulder/scapula could be simple muscle soreness//inflammation.

  170. G. Love March 31st, 2012 at 7:51 am

    Villa,

    I think the point (and the one CB was trying to make last night) is that the Yankees have eyes. They have experience. If the pitcher doesn’t look like himself on the mound and the results are not his normal velocity and stuff why is the organization not being more assertive and smart with these guys?

    I agree, these are young guys chasing millions of dollars and they will pitch with their arm hanging off if it means they keep their job.

    But the coaches and the front office should be recognizing that the pitcher’s shoulder slot and his motion, etc. all looked off.

    That said, I’m less angry about that than I am that Pineda was showing signs of this all of the 2nd half of last season.

    You don’t deal your best young power bat, a bat that is needed in my opinion at DH at the moment, for a guy who had a Hughesian season where he pitched well out of the gate, copped an All Star bid and then never looked the same.

    Let’s hope the shoulder is intact first. Pineda didn’t ask for Cashman to trade him for a guy who told the press was “Piazza”. I feel for the kid and I’m pulling for him.

    Cashman, I’m not pulling for. Enough has come out that I’m now completely sure that he acumen at scouting pitching is akin to my acumen at picking lottery numbers.

  171. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 7:51 am

    And, good morning Yankee Trader.

  172. MTU March 31st, 2012 at 7:52 am

    VN-

    I’m on the move most of today.

    I hope to be able comment from time to time during the day.

    let’s see what the MRI shows.

    Hopefully nothing more than mild inflammation.

  173. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 7:56 am

    FYI-

    Cashman did play a part in the 2009 run to the WS. While the Yankees were looking old against the then rookie Tommy Hanson, and took a 3-0 loss in June, he chewed out the team, and they never looked back.

    I can’t think of anyone here who was happy when they heard Montero was traded. Maybe had the trade been Banuelos and Romine for Pineda, there wouldn’t be such an uproar.

  174. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 7:58 am

    It’s really not worth reading any opinion saying Cashman should be fired for this trade. How ridiculously short sighted.

    Can you not see the team is perhaps in its strongest position yet? The lineup is posed for a turnaround, Tex and Jones are in much better shape, if A-Rod’s healthy that’s huge, and Martin and Swisher may contribute more in their contract years. Our rotation is the best it’s been in the past dozen years. And the bullpen is still in great condition.

    We’ve got talented young pitchers all over the farm system, some ready to contribute now, and some for the future.

    If Pineda didn’t throw a single MLB pitch this season, we’re still the strongest team in our division. Never mind the fact that we don’t know his condition, that he make still be with this team this year, and that he’s under contract for years.

    Oh, Montero’s lighting the world on fire too! If he was in NY we’d be hearing these same ridiculous stories about how he’s off to a slow start.

  175. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 7:59 am

    G. Love -

    I can’t disagree with some (maybe more) of what you say, since they did go through this just one year ago, and the situation was eerily similar.

    I also feel badly for Pineda who’s been piled on by some when his only crime was being he was the guy they traded Montero for.

    I hope this is just a bump and not a major setback.

  176. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 8:00 am

    I can’t think of anyone here who was happy when they heard Montero was traded. Maybe had the trade been Banuelos and Romine for Pineda, there wouldn’t be such an uproar.
    ————–

    Montero’s a great prospect, but he’s the first big prospect of the saturated social media world. No Yankee prospect before Montero has been covered the same way. I’d say that plays a large role in our attachment to him.

  177. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 8:02 am

    RadioKev -

    But Montero had jet lag. We can’t use the Japan series against him. ;)

  178. MTU March 31st, 2012 at 8:04 am

    Kev-

    There might be a we bit of over reaction going on at this point.

    OTOH if the results of the MRI are less than optimal maybe not.

    Many are saying that the Yankees should have been more “perceptive” and careful from jump street.

    That Pineda has already been “mishandled”. That the warning signs were obvious.

    Not sure I totally agree with all of that but I can see the POV.

    :)

  179. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:04 am

    If Cabral is on the DL, can the Yankees put him on waivers, with the idea that no team might claim him, so that he can recover and still be in the organization?

    Rapada looked good last night.

    Bernier made a terrific play at SS, a web gem throwing out the runner from LF grass on a bullet.

  180. MTU March 31st, 2012 at 8:06 am

    YT-

    I would think they could do that but I do not really know.

  181. TheStraw March 31st, 2012 at 8:07 am

    Those of you looking to blame Cashman should remember that this young man did himself no favors by showing up 20 pounds overweight to camp. If I got traded to the Yankees, I would darn well show up in good shape.

  182. MTU March 31st, 2012 at 8:10 am

    Bernier is a terrific SS. Anything anywhere near him and he just gobbles it up.

    Question with him is his hitting. Can he he hit enough ?

    He also really hustles. Another good quality.

    There is a lot to like there IMO.

  183. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 8:11 am

    Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 8:02 am
    RadioKev -

    But Montero had jet lag. We can’t use the Japan series against him.
    ————

    Haha, I hold nothing against Montero. I just hate the tabloid driven coverage of this trade. Montero is the second coming of Jesus, and Pineda’s a total bust. That might sell more copies of a paper, but it’s pretty detached from reality.

  184. blake March 31st, 2012 at 8:11 am

    I didn’t have a problem with the Yanks pitching Pineda until last night……the velocity has been down and he’s looked off mechanically at times this spring but he’s never actually looked to me like he was having pain or really trying hard to generate velocity……until last night….last night it was clear that he was trying to throw hard and couldn’t……I posted that in the first inning ….his arm angle was down and he was elevating the ball and pushing it to the plate……basically what you see from guys when their shoulders hurt.

    As mentioned …..this whole competition thing becomes counter productive if it leads your 23 year old starter to hurt himself trying to throw harder than he’s capable of doing at the time……if thethe MRI is clear…..then they need to shut him down…..basically take the same course they did with Hughes last year (minus putting him in the rotation to struggle ) and hope the velocity comes back quicker than it did for Hughes. Hughes was basically the worst case you’ll see of this “dead arm ” stuff and he even was throwing 95 by October……

    Said it a couple of times now…..but Bumgardner had nothing in the spring of 2010…..he was throwing 87 mph and couldn’t get anyone out……the Giants did the right thing and sent him down to get through it……the velo started coming back mid season…..and by fall he was mowing down hitters in the playoffs.

    Im going to spend the morning hoping for that scenario for Pineda……and trying tonerase the name Jesus Montero from by memory.

  185. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:18 am

    There’s no excuse for Pineda showing up carrying extra weight. In fact when a GM trades for a player, especially a young one with little major league experience, they all should get a list of what is expected of them when they report to ST, and in this case, what to expect when they play in front of fans in NY.

    All these teams have access to health professionals to work with players, if need be, in the offseason.

  186. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 8:18 am

    RadioKev -

    I’m rooting for Montero – and actually do think that he looked good in his at bats. Just pointing out the difference in perspective when people are for or against something. I am, as you are, tiring of the “second coming” stuff.

    blake -

    Let’s just hope for the best. But if you want to erase the name JM from your memory, you best not visit here anymore. LOL

  187. blake March 31st, 2012 at 8:19 am

    “Bernier is a terrific SS. Anything anywhere near him and he just gobbles it up.”

    I agree…..he’d be ahead of Pena on the depth chart for me because of the defense……

  188. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 8:19 am

    Said it a couple of times now…..but Bumgardner had nothing in the spring of 2010…..he was throwing 87 mph and couldn’t get anyone out……the Giants did the right thing and sent him down to get through it……the velo started coming back mid season…..and by fall he was mowing down hitters in the playoffs.
    ———–

    Yup, that’s the scenario we have to hope for. Best news is this is just some shoulder inflammation. In the mean time, we have Garcia, we might have Pettitte, and we’ve got Phelps/Warren/Mitchell. If Pineda comes back mid season as a high end arm, we’re in good shape.

    Thankfully we have been through this with Hughes. We know a few things that didn’t work for Hughes, so maybe we’ll work it better for Pineda. And what’s more encouraging, Hughes looks better than ever right now.

  189. blake March 31st, 2012 at 8:20 am

    Villa,

    Who are you talking about? Never heard of Uhm ;)

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    I’m going to hide a back injury and play on my Ultimate team next week.. Wish me luck.

  191. MTU March 31st, 2012 at 8:22 am

    Good morning Blake.

    Pretty obvious the Yankees did not think there was anything physically wrong with Pineda until now.

    Some feel they should have been way more “on top” of things, and proactive considering their recent experience.

    I just hope he is not seriously injured.

    I don’t think so but we won’t know until the test results are in.

    Hoping for the best.

  192. blake March 31st, 2012 at 8:24 am

    And the Yanks can’t be faulted for Pineda’s pre game shoulder pain if he didn’t tell them about it……but they can be faulted for leaving him out there to throw all those pitches when it was obvious in the 1st that something was wrong……when the guy is throwing basically all 90 mph loopy cutters from a lower arm angle you’d think they’d gt him out of a ST game…….

  193. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 8:24 am

    Yankee Trader -

    Right?

    But if his arm was “barking” at the end of last season, he, like Hughes, probably thought that rest was what was needed, and the 10-20 pounds would surely creep on just from the inactivity and no change in diet.

    I do not understand how teams spend so much money on players and then in the off-season most players are on their own. I’d think that at the end of the regular season, there should be a meeting between the parties to discuss what the plan is over the off-season, particularly with pitchers, and particularly, as history is showing us, with pitchers who will be entering their second seasons. Perhaps veterans with a proven record of success need not attend, but surely your guys with <5 years in the bigs?

  194. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:26 am

    Blake-

    It was reported yesterday what Pineda’s average fastball velocity was in all his starts last season. Wasn’t it only significantly down his last start of the season and even then a tick below 92?

  195. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:28 am

    Villa-

    I would hope the Yankees already inform the young players what is expected of them, and their agents need to coach them too how to remain successful while pitching for the NYY.

  196. blake March 31st, 2012 at 8:29 am

    MTU,

    Yea hope for the best…..if its just inflammation and its Hughes 2.0 then at least we know that’s fixable and should resolve……

  197. TheStraw March 31st, 2012 at 8:30 am

    And those of you evaluating this trade, let’s not forget Campos. He was more than just a throw-in. As was Noesi, unfortunately. So we really have to monitor the long term success of all four before we can truly make a judgment on this trade.

  198. CountryClub March 31st, 2012 at 8:31 am

    My guess is that the MRI will be clean. This is a young kid who is as confused as everyone else about the missing velocity and last night he was searching for an answer. However, it’s extremely common for pitchers to lose velocity the season after their first full MLB season. it’s an annoying trend, but a trend none the less. But I’m getting ahead of myself. Let’s see what the MRI says first.

  199. blake March 31st, 2012 at 8:32 am

    Trader,

    It was…..it started to dip in the 2nd half a little but was still good….I don’t know what to take from that small sample…..I do think that if there is no structural damage then it should come back…….and hopefully will come back this year……but the shanks have to handle this correctly…..use the depth they have to get this right…..they can’t screw this one up…..

  200. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:32 am

    Blake-

    To my “trained” eye, I didn’t notice that he was laboring, and grimacing, while trying to constantly stretch his shoulder and adjust his uniform until after the 1st inning. He also just didn’t look comfortable, taking a lot of time between pitches. I mentioned it last night that something was not right.

  201. MTU March 31st, 2012 at 8:37 am

    VN-

    Trouble is the Team can only suggest things for the OS. They cannot force anything.

    I would love to see pre- and post-season strength testing.

    With that sort of a baseline perhaps some of these issues would be a little more obvious earlier on.

    Have a good day. gotta run.

  202. blake March 31st, 2012 at 8:38 am

    Trader,

    After the top of the first last night I posted that it was the first time id noticed him lookingly like he was trying to throw hard and there was just nothing there…..he was dropping his arm angle and the ball was sailing up in the zone in addition to having the cut action ……

  203. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:39 am

    For what it’s worth, pain in the right shoulder and behind the scapula can be due to gallbladder disease.

    Now, this is not GB disease, but before thinking the worse, one needs to wait for the test and physical examination results.

  204. MTU March 31st, 2012 at 8:39 am

    blake-

    Fingers crossed.

    Later.

    :)

  205. blake March 31st, 2012 at 8:41 am

    The good news is the Yanks still have 5 good starters….and 6 when Andy is ready……so they have time to get this right and get him healthy and throwing gas again…….if they really want trading “he who shall not be named” for Pineda to be a complete failure then they’ll keep pushing him until he really gets hurt if he’s not already……

  206. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:44 am

    Posted this last night. Small sample size but neverthelesss interesting:

    Incidence of False Positive Rotator Cuff Pathology in MRIs of Patients With Adhesive Capsulitis

    by Bryan J. Loeffler, MD; Stephen L. Brown, MD; Donald F. D’Alessandro, MD; James E. Fleischli, MD; Patrick M. Connor

    Abstract

    The purpose of this study was to compare the incidence of presumed rotator cuff pathology based on radiologist and surgeon interpretation of preoperative magnetic resonance images (MRIs) with actual rotator cuff pathology found intraoperatively in patients undergoing arthroscopic capsular release for adhesive capsulitis.

    The medical records of 38 consecutive patients who underwent arthroscopic glenohumeral capsular release for adhesive capsulitis between September 2001 and May 2007 were retrospectively reviewed. Radiologist and surgeon predicted status of the rotator cuff by prospective MRI interpretation was compared to the actual status of the rotator cuff intraoperatively. Radiologists’ preoperative MRI interpretations predicted a 57.9% incidence of rotator cuff pathology, while operative findings revealed a true incidence of only 13.2% (P<.0001). Radiologists accurately predicted the absence or presence of a rotator cuff tear in 19 of 38 cases (50%), compared to the surgeon, who correctly interpreted 29 of 38 MRIs (76.3%).

    Interpretations of shoulder MRIs in patients with adhesive capsulitis may provide misleading information regarding rotator cuff pathology. The actual findings of shoulder MRI scans may lead to the appearance of false rotator cuff pathology in this population, and a high percentage of false positive MRI reports of rotator cuff tears was observed in these patients. If MRI is chosen as a diagnostic adjunct in this patient population, careful consideration should be given to its interpretation to avoid unnecessary or possibly aggravating surgical intervention.

  207. Benny Blanco March 31st, 2012 at 8:44 am

    It’s the velocity curse. If the Yankees traded for verlander he would be throwing 91 here. ;)

  208. blake March 31st, 2012 at 8:47 am

    Young pitcher with diminished velocity and sore shoulder……broken LOOGY again……to steal from Yogi….this is deja vue all over again.

  209. blake March 31st, 2012 at 8:49 am

    As has been said often here…..if you order an MRI on pretty much any pitchers shoulder then my guess is you’ll see some abnormalities …..

  210. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:53 am

    Blake-

    It’s not over till the fat lady sings! Try that and maybe all things will work out for the best! :)

  211. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:54 am

    9:00 Post up early——————->

  212. pat March 31st, 2012 at 8:56 am

    Pineda was traded less than a month before he arrived in Tampa. A Yankee instituted offseason training plan would likely not have been an effective option in this circumstance with such a short window.

    Maybe it is as simple as some pitchers go through a “sophomore slump”. Maybe it’s just part of the “genetics” of pitchers or the body needing to adjust to the toll of a season it had not previously exprienced.

  213. jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 8:59 am

    Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:26 am
    Blake-

    It was reported yesterday what Pineda’s average fastball velocity was in all his starts last season. Wasn’t it only significantly down his last start of the season and even then a tick below 92?

    Yes, his velocity decline last year has been blown out of proportion here. There was only a slight decline. His fastball averaged 95 last year, and he didn’t start at an average of 100.

    And his weight “problem” is overblown here also. 10-20 pounds on a sturdy 6’7″ frame is nothing. CC is more overweight and he slimmed down this year. It’s a matter of strength, not svelte.

  214. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:06 am

    Take a look at the top photo of Pineda taken during the game and in full motion. Does he look like he’s in pain or distress? What ever happened, happened during the game and after that photo was taken.

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