Spring training Game 28: Yankees vs. Phillies
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Gameday Thread on Mar 30, 2012 
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strongYANKEES (13-11-3)/strong
Derek Jeter SS
Curtis Granderson CF
Robinson Cano 2B
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Eric Chavez 1B
Russell Martin C
Andruw Jones DH
Justin Maxwell RF
Brett Gardner LF
RHP Michael Pineda (1-0, 3.31)
a href=http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/batvspitch/_/id/30937/michael-pinedaPineda vs. Phillies/a
strongPHILLIES (12-14-3)/strong
Juan Pierre LF
Shane Victorino CF
Jimmy Rollins SS
Jim Thomes DH
Hunter Pence RF
Placido Polanco 3B
Ty Wigginton 1B
Carlos Ruiz C
Freddy Galvis 2B
LHP Antonio Bastardo (0-0, 4.26)
a href=http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/batvspitch/_/id/30105/antonio-bastardoBastardo vs. Yankees/a
strongTIME/TV:/strong 7:05 p.m., YES Network
strongWEATHER:/strong Last game in Tampa before a four-day road trip to the other side of the state, and the weathers not giving us a perfect sendoff. Its not bad, just a little cloudy and not as picture perfect as its been most of the spring. Wind blowing out to center field, not particularly hard.
strongUMPIRES:/strong HP Mark Wegner, 1B Dan Iassogna, 2B Mike Estabrook
strongPHILLIES PEN:/strong Jonathan Papelbon is scheduled to pitch out of the Phillies bullpen tonight. Chad Qualls, Kyle Kendrick and Julio Rodriguez are also available.
strongGARCIAS LINE:/strong Freddy Garcia pitched at the minor league complex this afternoon. He went 6.2 innings allowing one run on two hits, three walks and five strikeouts. The one run scored after he left the game. He threw 89 pitches.
strongOUT OF HERE:/strong The Yankees next four games are on the road with one game in Kissimmee against the Astros, two in Miami against the Marlins — exhibitions to open their new ballpark — and one in Port St. Lucie against the Mets. It will be the first spring training game between the Yankees and Mets since 1996.
strongUPDATE, 7:16 p.m.:/strong One run on three hits for the Phillies in the first inning. Pineda is once again 89-91 with his fastball. His offspeed stuff is good, but that velocity just doesnt seem to be going anywhere.
strongUPDATE, 7:50 p.m.:/strong Pinedas fastball bumped 94 mph in the second inning, but he allowed another run and mostly sat at 91-92. The Yankees answering with a run in the bottom of the inning and its 2-1 Phillies heading into the third.
strongUPDATE, 8:12 p.m.:/strong Pineda is finished after just 2.2 innings. His last pitch of the night was a three-run double by Carlos Ruiz, and he was booed off the mound. Remember when I wrote a couple of days ago that I still expected the Yankees to move Garcia to the bullpen? Thats no longer the case.
strongUPDATE, 8:23 p.m.:/strong Two-run homer for Granderson has the Yankees within 6-3. Also, the Phillies just nearly made a pitching change for Kyle Kendrick, but then didnt actually put him in the game and now hes in the dugout. Very weird.
strongUPDATE, 8:38 p.m.:/strong Two-run, bases-loaded single for Justin Maxwell has pulled the Yankees within 6-5. Thats another hit and another two RBI in a really good spring for Maxwell.
strongUPDATE, 8:58 p.m.:/strong Two hits and a walk in the fourth inning have put the Yankees in front 7-6. Eric Chavez just had his second hit of the day and has his average up to .270 for the spring.
strongUPDATE, 9:07 p.m.:/strong Girardi just said on YES Network that Pinedas fastball was cutting nearly every time, which seems to be a sign that hes getting on the side of the baseball and needs to straighten out some mechinics. That might account for some of the diminished velocity. At times hell throw some fastballs that cut, but not like he did tonight, Girardi said.
UPDATE, 9:30 p.m.: Pineda just admitted he was trying to generate more velocity tonight. He also admitted that he was feeling some soreness in his pitching shoulder tonight.
Royals, Alex Gordon Agree To Extension
By Zach Links [March 30 at 5:40pm CST]
The Royals announced that they have reached a contract extension with leftfielder Alex Gordon. The contract includes four guaranteed years through the 2015 season with a player option for 2016. The Excel Sports Management client would have been eligible for free agency after the 2013 season.
Its been a busy spring for General Manager Dayton Moore who signed off on a five-year, $7MM extension for Salvador Perez and a new deal for Alcides Escobar who could earn up to $21.75MM through 2017. Eric Hosmer could also be an extension candidate but earlier this week the first baseman said that he is in no rush to sign a multi-year deal.
Terms of the deal have not yet been disclosed but Gordon could potentially hold the richest deal in club history. To date, the largest deal in Kansas City’s history has been $55MM, the amount given to both Gil Meche and Mike Sweeney.
Gordon, 28, hit .303/.376/.502 with 23 homers in 690 plate appearances in 2011. Last season marked Gordon’s first as a full-time outfielder.
MLBTR
hitters are easy to find! Not……
GO Pineda…..throw fast!
I have a 1/2 hr till Knicks. Crosses fingers for Pineda.
Did people honestly expect KC to move Gordon?
Go Pine Forest! Go Yanks!
blake March 30th, 2012 at 7:05 pm
GO Pineda…..throw fast!
======================
]
Nope…..Pitch good, if you can throw some mid nineties Fastballs that would be appreciated.
Chavez is soooooooo gorgeous. *sigh*
Seeing eyes hits
Not exactly being tattooed here.
Whew, Martin got him by a mile.
Good throw from Martin, important second out
Bast*rdo pitched some good games last season.
GO MICHAEL PINEDA! Hit at least 95 or it’s going to be a long night on the forum!
An inauspicious start. Wonder if Pineda was given a word about going down….)
Posted this three times and then figured out why it wasn’t posting! The b word.
Yankee scouts, including Cashman and Eppler sitting behind homeplate watching Pineda.
91 mph. After warming in pen and on mound, it’s still a little low.
Pitched around Thome there
What was really impressive is that Pineda is not particularly fast to homeplate, and he threw a CU and still got him
This is unPineda-like.
Methinks something is going on. Medoesn’t know exactly what. He appears to have no focus or concentration.
Nice hit
MLBTR
hitters are easy to find! Not……
********
Find a Napoli there – a Beltre there – and to your existing offense – and hey – you are in the 2011 WS. . . .at least that his how Jon Daniels did it. You can find the offense on a season to season basis – what you are looking for is security as a fan – you want locked in security that this bat is here for the next 10 – 15 years of production. We have met before – in the late 90s you were the one wanting Juan Gonzales and Sammy Sosa added each July – but sometimes – just sometimes – a David Justice develops. . . . a Bobby Abreu shows up. . . .
That was a good AB by Pence. It wasn’t a bad pitch.
That’s unfair but part of the game. A excuse me swing.
Get hot big guy !
No velocity.
Coney is right….he’s on the side of the ball….arm angle is lower….hes cutting the ball without meaning to and that’s where some of the velo is going.
Freekin Bleeder to right…..Pineda does look a little out of sorts in his delivery
tonight is the first time this spring that Pineda has looked to me like he was trying to generate velocity and it wasn’t there in that first inning….
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 7:14 pm
This is unPineda-like.
Methinks something is going on. Medoesn’t know exactly what. He appears to have no focus or concentration.
——————————————————–
Other guys around baseball are throwing with their normal heat, why not P ?
How can something as obvious and major as a change in delivery/arm angle not be noticed in most of spring training?
Jeter in midseason form…easy grounder to SS.
blake March 30th, 2012 at 7:17 pm
Coney is right….he’s on the side of the ball….arm angle is lower….hes cutting the ball without meaning to and that’s where some of the velo is going.
=====================================
Yup.
I’m wondering it the pressure surrounding “odd man out” is getting to him. It can’t be easy to be the new guy in town with knowledge that you’re the only one who hasn’t cracked the Yankee rotation in the past and that it’s a numbers game at this point, only to get worse.
Just a thought.
a Beltre there
–
Signing a 32 year old to a 5 year deal, always good!
Pat M. March 30th, 2012 at 7:18 pm
Freekin Bleeder to right…..Pineda does look a little out of sorts in his delivery
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If he’s wearing a glove from our time, Rollins never touches that ball.
When the camera zoomed in on Derek’s face I had to ask myself, where have all the years gone Derek Jeter ????
I’m long on Pineda…like the trade but he needs to stop hockering huge wads of spit on the mound. Are you kidding? That’s way beyond what you normally see. It’s going to be a Keegan Bradley like reaction from the veteran players who have look at some kid spewing all over where they have to play.
I’ll take Cone’s word about it, he would know. Maybe he should tell someone on the team, as either no one has noticed, or Pineda isn’t able to fix it. Anyway, this would at least mean there is not something wrong with him physically.
It’s funny that the Phillies’ starter’s name is censored.
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 7:20 pm
I’m wondering it the pressure surrounding “odd man out” is getting to him. It can’t be easy to be the new guy in town with knowledge that you’re the only one who hasn’t cracked the Yankee rotation in the past and that it’s a numbers game at this point, only to get worse.
Just a thought.
=================================
Maybe, but i think Rossy post earlier that in 19 MLB’s starts he got 3 or less run support. That is pressure, you have no margin for error. But he might be pressing.
“Pitching tonight for Philadelphia, Antonio [expletive deleted].”
Nasty hook
It’s one thing to feel pressure in Seattle, quite another to feel it in a Ys uni when you’re the new kid on the block.
But anyway, we’ll see as the evening goes on.
Nothing wrong with that slider.
Nasty hook for a strike
Worst pitch of the night, so far.
No trouble turning on that mediocre fastball from Pineda.
Cone is right about the movement. I can’t imagine it’s intentional.
Good CU
This is by far Pineda’s worst outing of the spring. And it’s not TERRIBLE.
Pineda’s slider works vs both sides of the plate because its so nasty.
He fooled him completely on that off speed pitch.
94
94 \o/
You can do it Pineda, go for the gold or else you’ll be cut.
Am at game sitting behind yanks dugout. 3RD row. Must say Pineda not looking very good
94 for a strike then 91 down the middle – -
Pineda will fit right in giving up 2 out, run scoring hits.
He’s getting pinged to death.
So the Yanks gave up their prize, blue-chip prospect for this…
0-2 pitch, really Michael….
Damon to Cleveland?
Nice CU
Martin’s looking good tonight.
“So the Yanks gave up their prize, blue-chip prospect for this…”
Right, because no good pitchers even get lit up in spring training.
How has their blue-chip prospect done so far? Maybe Mariner fans are saying the same thing!
Hello GB Pat
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 7:29 pm
This is by far Pineda’s worst outing of the spring. And it’s not TERRIBLE.
——————————————-
It’s only 2nd inn., but he has reached 94 and his other stuff looks good. He’ll need to reach 94-95 with his FB more often.
Off speed stuff ok, but Trisha me thinks[Jar Jar Binks], unless he gets his velocity up , with the top brass watching, he’s going to be starting in the minors.
Trisha!
Evening, BB. How are things going with the book? Pineda has made one bad pitch, tonight. They aren’t really hitting hard enough to bend the grass when th ball lands.b
I don’t place much stock in spring training results, particularly in the early games, but Pineda isn’t throwing the ball well at all tonight.
That fastball isn’t fooling anyone and will get crushed in the regular season if this continues.
Yankee hitters not very patient tonight-must be something going on in Tampa tonight that they want to get to.
I wonder what happen to Bast@@#$
YT – anything’s possible. Time will tell.
Good for the pitching change . Pineda could use a breather.
Going good GB. He is just not looking very sharp
MG March 30th, 2012 at 7:37 pm
I don’t place much stock in spring training results, particularly in the early games, but Pineda isn’t throwing the ball well at all tonight.
————
His slider looks great, as usual.
I’m starting to feel bad for Pineda.
Starting in the minors may have been the best thing for him all along, regardless of fastball speed, but now the guy has basically been thrown to the NY media wolves.
If the Yanks made any trades this season, I wish they could trade the writers who feast on creating and/or perpetuating controversy.
If he has a bad start or does get sent down for a little while, the media will no doubt love stirring that pot as if the kid’s career is over.
Ahh, I found it-they want to finish early to attend this:
Fri 03/30/12
13th Annual Tampa Bay Tattoofest
Event Runs 12:00 pm – 11:00 pm – Tickets: $20.00 Day – $45.00 Weekend
Venue: Manatee County Civic Center
Address: One Haben Boulevard
City: Palmetto, FL
Gordon at 5 years, $50 mil
They aren’t really hitting hard enough to bend the grass when th ball lands.b
–
This is a bit of a mischaracertization. The first inning there was a line drive and 2 hard hit ground balls, one that found a glove and one that didn’t. 2 Line drives to Juan Pierre? Pierre can’t hit anyone hard but he is giving up line drives to that guy. And the booming double.
The weakest hit so far was Pence’s bloop, but it was on his good slider off the plate, not the best outcome.
“His slider looks great, as usual.”
———-
Funny, I haven’t seen anyone on ESPN mention that… well, if he can throw a 95mph slider maybe.
“Gordon at 5 years, $50 mil”
———-
probably fair.
some risk there for sure, but if he performs this season he’d have done better on the market.
BD – spot on.
He has the media and various fans circling like vultures.
Pineda is a beast who has been told that he has to work on his curve, a pitch he was pretty happy with heretofore. Then he’s hearing nonstop garbage about his fb. Perhaps if he’s allowed to pitch his game he’ll surprise people.
Yankee Trader March 30th, 2012 at 7:41 pm
Ahh, I found it-they want to finish early to attend this:
Fri 03/30/12
13th Annual Tampa Bay Tattoofest
Event Runs 12:00 pm – 11:00 pm – Tickets: $20.00 Day – $45.00 Weekend
Venue: Manatee County Civic Center
Address: One Haben Boulevard
City: Palmetto, FL
—————–
I actually know the guy who runs this, he sells skin care products in his primary business, what a combination…
I believe Martin is going to have a good offensive year.
Why is it always a “mistake” when someone hits the heck out of the ball ?
If a pitcher could be perfect, no one would ever “tag” one !
Hey Bronx Born…..Welcome to the Lohud debating marathon…….Trust me it’ll get old real fast
With all of the scouts + in the stands for the yanks, certainly somebody is picking up on Pineda’s delivery if Cone is right. Not sure if they know him well enough to know that wasn’t his delivery last year.
BD (Boston Dave) March 30th, 2012 at 7:41 pm
“His slider looks great, as usual.”
———-
Funny, I haven’t seen anyone on ESPN mention that… well, if he can throw a 95mph slider maybe.
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Hahaha, I remember reading that one this morning. And wondering – why is this news?
MG-
Great combination in sunny Tampa,
A quick Yankee haiku in honor of our own poet-in-residence.
land of rising sun
A Samurai with the bat
“Pineda” means pine!
Good to see you guys
Yeah, might as well put Pineda out of his misery as he’ll never amount to anything. Please………
Wow, Davey Lopes looking real old….Had real career and was a good ballplayer
And wondering – why is this news?
–
A 95 mph slider would be news. That would be one of the more unique pitches in baseball. Like a 105 mph fastball.
Excellent BJ
Regardless of what happens, i like what Maxwell brings. He has cooled down with the bat though
It’s a shame that Maxwell’s chance to go North with the team, might have to be due to a regular being on the DL to start the season.
He’s given up a soft roller through the infield and 2 parachute jobs, to center and right. Not exactly being knocked around. I’ve seen the same thing happen to sabathia and it was “just bad luck”.
BronxBorn!!! I just figured out that it’s you! How are you doing????
BD, blame Cashman. He’s talked all spring about velocity which, instead of minimizing the issue, made it worse. He also raved about Montero instead of talking about his new pitcher. The media has no real clue about Montero, they just know he was supposed to be great, so by talking about him and not Pineda, he’s put a target on the kid. Now if he’s sent down, it’s going to be looked at as a flop, which by no means is what it is. I have great faith in Pineda, but he’s going through the same sort of thing that most young pitchers go through coming off of a heavy innings workload
Pineda’s slider looks great….and his CU looks good….but the heat isn’t there because of probable innings hangover and a mechanical/grip issue that’s causing the cut on his 4 seamer…..it’s actually a good pitch if it were in addition to a 97 mph conventional 4 seamer. I think he’s going to be fine…..but he’s not there right now.
Is it really necessary for Curry to ask whether someone feels they deserve to be in the rotation? Has Kim Jones inhabited his body?
Cripes.
He’s given up a soft roller through the infield and 2 parachute jobs, to center and right. Not exactly being knocked around. I’ve seen the same thing happen to sabathia and it was “just bad luck”.
–
You’re watching a different game.
Gordon:
6:10pm: The deal is worth $37.5MM over four years with a player option for 2016 at $12.5MM, tweets Bob Dutton of the Kansas City Star. Gordon will earn $6MM for 2012, $9MM for 2013, $10MM for 2014, and $12.5MM for 2015, Dutton tweets.
Pineda was in a no win situation..
1) Throw 97 and slider only… ( be labled as a two pitch pitcher)
2) Work on change ( have three pitchers and less velocity on FB) = minor league pitcher and 5th starter at best…SMH
Ssshhhh – Jack Curry is speaking. . . .
.but the heat isn’t there because of probable innings hangover and a mechanical/grip issue that’s causing the cut on his 4 seamer
–
Whats interesting is that last year he had a series of pitches at an average speed of 95 mph that were categorized as cutters.
“I have great faith in Pineda, but he’s going through the same sort of thing that most young pitchers go through coming off of a heavy innings workload”
Agree.
2) Work on change ( have three pitchers and less velocity on FB) = minor league pitcher and 5th starter at best…SMH
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I don’t buy working on the change makes him lose 3 mph average on his fastball. Throw them with the same armspeed. Thats the point.
three pitches*
Hey Trish… Yes I. Doing good. How you?
“Pineda was in a no win situation..”
Yep
Trisha, so we just bite the bullet and he’ll be perfectly fine next year. As we’ve heard, this trade wasn’t about 2012, it was about the next 5, 6, 7 years. I’ve kind of taken a protective attitiude towards Pineda because he was the target of many Yankee fans after the trade. I’m really sorry for him that it’s reached this point.
Not looking good for the kid
Busier than I want to be Bronx! Lots of work, not enough leisure.
Gordon sets the market for Melky Cabrera and BJ Upton. I don’t see those guys getting more than 10 million per and 5 years with only one or two good seasons to back it up.
Oh boy
Not a good pitch and a worse job on the walk.
Keep telling yourselves everything is fine with Pineda.
If it’s Pineda vs Garcia to open the season as the #5-then the winner opens in Baltimore and then comes home for a game vs the Twins. They miss the Angels, a team minus Pujols, that rocked Garcia last year.
This is getting ugly.
“Whats interesting is that last year he had a series of pitches at an average speed of 95 mph that were categorized as cutters.”
I didn’t see him enough to know….the video I’ve seen of him from last year feature 4 seam gas. His FB is pretty flat tonight….the average velocity is probably the best he’s thrown this spring….a lot more 91′s and 92′s but the location is bad and he’s up in the zone with it because he’s on the side and his arm angle is lower it looks like to me….he’s not driving it downhill into the zone.
Pineda’s fastball had a lot of movement last year. It wasn’t a straight 4 seam. He had a good portion of his fastballs classified as 2 seam (with 96 mph!) and cutters (95 mph!). Dude has a beast fastball when he throws it right.
The “heat” is just not there for him. Period. No excuses.
I’m feeling bad fir Pineda. He’s not making it difficult for Girardi.
I have no video, so I’m listening to Suzyn and sterling debate rotation with feinsand.
Feinsand wants to stick Garcia in the pen. Suzyn thinks there’s red flags and he might go to AAA. Sterling just hemmin’ and hawin’.
He’s sitting 90-91 and has topped out at 94 a few times.
starting to feel like the correct move is to actually let Pineda start at AAA….this is a long term investment and he’s not right right now……with the depth they have they have the luxury to send him down and get him right before putting him in the rotation….and as a side benefit you gain an extra year of control.
I fully understand Trish. That last pitch was beautiful to get the k. He is a big fellow.
“Trisha, so we just bite the bullet and he’ll be perfectly fine next year. As we’ve heard, this trade wasn’t about 2012, it was about the next 5, 6, 7 years. I’ve kind of taken a protective attitiude towards Pineda because he was the target of many Yankee fans after the trade. I’m really sorry for him that it’s reached this point.”
You know I’m with you. Some Yankee fans have the loyalty of alley cats. The minute someone dons the pinstripes, you get in their corner, not do everything in your power to pick their bones apart. Bets, I guarantee you that once things get into swing and Pineda gets some starts for the Yanks (whenever that is) he’ll show just how great his stuff is. But now he’s being burned under a king-sized microscope. You know how PATIENT Yankee fans can be – NOT!
This start is nothing but a giant “red flag.” I didn’t see his last start with Seattle, where his velocity was crap, but he looks nothing like last year.
Maybe this a a good thing ( pineda’s velo issues). It will make him a better pitcher. #learn how to pitch without velocity.
Feinsand yammering about how he’ll take a demotion.
Um, I’m thinking he’ll go where the Yankees tell him? And try to prove he belongs in the majors, like how Hughes and Nova did. These players aren’t china dolls.
“Pineda’s fastball had a lot of movement last year. It wasn’t a straight 4 seam. He had a good portion of his fastballs classified as 2 seam (with 96 mph!) and cutters (95 mph!). Dude has a beast fastball when he throws it right.”
that may be true….but he’s not throwing it right right now…..all of them have this loopy cutter movement…..some of them break late but some of them look like they are breaking out of his hand and are getting hit hard…..
Too many walks.
Before they signed Pettitte, I said Garcia to the pen. With pettitte in the minors, and Garcia not being able to warm up quick enough in the pen, and with the velocity/service time issues. I say Pineda or Nova to AAA. Garcia to the rotation. Mitchell to Long Man. Garcia traded. Mitchell to AAA. Pettitte to the rotation. Pineda to the rotation. Nova to long man.
I said from jump street that I thought it would be good for Pineda to start in AAA mainly because I thought he could get some rest on his arm after pitching the innings he did last year. I’m not worried about Pineda long term at all. Whatever is best for Pineda is what I hope happens.
I refuse to believe Cone figured out Pineda’s lack of velocity in this start, and the Yankees didn’t figure it out for the entire spring. That speaks to a level of incompetence on part of the Yankees that I feel would be comical.
Something is wrong. Grimacing.
blake March 30th, 2012 at 8:00 pm
starting to feel like the correct move is to actually let Pineda start at AAA….this is a long term investment and he’s not right right now……with the depth they have they have the luxury to send him down and get him right before putting him in the rotation….and as a side benefit you gain an extra year of control.
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Yup, I agree. Garcia’s looking good, and Pineda needs to iron out his mechanics. The only shame is being on the road all the time.
we were talking about his cutting the ball here 2 starts ago….the Pirates start actually is when I noticed it first.
89 mph fastball.
Trish, did you get my email?
90 mph fastball with super low arm angle
I’m kinda thinking the Yankees (or Garcia) told Pineda that they’d buy him a new car if he tanked this game. Arod just helping the cause.
Blake, I agree. He’d be in pretty fabulous company if he is sent down; who’s the PC at AAA?
we were talking about his cutting the ball here 2 starts ago….the Pirates start actually is when I noticed it first.
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Yea but is the ball moving that way because he is doing something or is it moving that way / that speed because its all he has. He already threw fastballs with movement at higher velocity last year… I don’t think the movement is the new thing. Its just the speed.
JF,
I think right now it looks like Pineda might be going to Triple A. I don’t see a live FB, nor do i see the velocity. Maybe this could be a blessing in disguise. Allow him to get right down in the minors and not under the lights of NYS.
What did Coney say?
Are the people on here still so sure Pineda gets his velocity up by the end of spring training?
Thanks Bronx Born.
3rd row huh? Nothing like great seats is there?
Pineda has made the decision easy. Without velocity, he is Hughes without velocity. Wow.
Nova to long man?
This could possibly go down as the worst trade in Yankee history
Yep, he was worth Montero…
He is a sitting duck.
Coney being pragmatic. Hope Yankees decide to be equally pragmatic.
*************
I’m not ready to shuffle the entire deck until we see what Pettitte has.
Go take a shower Michael
“Yea but is the ball moving that way because he is doing something or is it moving that way / that speed because its all he has. He already threw fastballs with movement at higher velocity last year… I don’t think the movement is the new thing. Its just the speed.”
I don’t know…..but what it looks like he’s doing mechanically lines up with what the ball is doing…..
Worst Yankee trade ever?
Pitches look loopier when they’re slower. When Mo is off with his cutter, you notice a loopier break.
Without command rather.
The worst trade in Yankee history after one bad start in ST? Wow..
see that fastball was basically like a crappy cutter right out of his hand….the break was early and there was nothing at all on the ball..
Pineda just punched his ticket. Probably not fair, and he still has all the tools to be a really really good starter, but from a narrative view point the Yankees have the perfect opportunity to put him in AAA for performance reasons, get the extra year of control, and try to build his fastball velocity back up.
Worst Yankee trade ever?
———————————————–
It could be
Coney said that Pineda has a bright future ahead of him but he thinks that it would be best for the Yanks to send him to AAA rather than have him get buried in his first starts in the Bronx. Something like that.
Oh boy.
Is that Philly people screaming “Ruuuu” for Ruiz or is Pineda getting booed.
Betsy March 30th, 2012 at 8:06 pm
What did Coney say?
That his arm angle was lower, taking away both the live and the velocity of the FB
They’re booing him? Man, that is low. Cone’s right, Yanks need to protect him and do what is best for him. If his last outing is similar, they have to send him to AAA. The arm strength just doesn’t seem to be there right now, and his body language has been terrible.
Pineda has had many fine starts this spring training. This was not one of them.
Those “cut fastballs,” if that’s what they were, looked more like hanging sliders.
RadioKev-
When Pineda is sent down and Mitchell isn’t brought up as the long man, he might go to Trenton rather than the travelling wilburys of SWB.
Shame the locals are booing him.
That may have ended any issues about who’s in the rotation. Does he go to the pen, AAA or extended ST for a month or so to strengthen the arm or fix the delivery?
These seats are incredible thanks to my beautiful wife for my birthday
Fans practicing their Boone Logan call.
“Booooo–ne!”
Betsy,
Don’t even comment on the gibberish regarding “worst trade” talk.
It’s pointless. Things happen for a reason
The worst trade in Yankee history after one bad start in ST? Wow..
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His whole spring has been subpar. He has no velocity. we traded a 30 + home run beast for a number 4 starter
Betsy, ignore the troll. It seems that most of us have been doing that.
Were they yelling Ruiz?
Does he go to the pen, AAA or extended ST for a month or so to strengthen the arm or fix the delivery?
–
The pen would be a disaster. No thanks. EST or AA/AAA
OMG, we’re already giving up on the trade ?
Maybe just a wee bit too early !
Triple Short of a Cycle March 30th, 2012 at 8:07 pm
This could possibly go down as the worst trade in Yankee history
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A little early in life to be going senile isn’t it, grrandma?
“I refuse to believe Cone figured out Pineda’s lack of velocity in this start, and the Yankees didn’t figure it out for the entire spring. That speaks to a level of incompetence on part of the Yankees that I feel would be comical.”
———————————–
yes it would be.
yet if i’m Cone, i don’t assume anything, and personally take this up with the Yankees coaching staff.
in recent years, too many NYY pitchers have lost velocity once they start pitching for NYY. Even pitchers from our own minor league system
It’s pointless. Things happen for a reason
———————————————–
They happened because Cashman has no clue about pitching
Once he is sent down he will have to earn his way back over the other AAA guys.
Why do so many new Yankee pitchers lose their velocity?
“Pineda just punched his ticket. Probably not fair, and he still has all the tools to be a really really good starter, but from a narrative view point the Yankees have the perfect opportunity to put him in AAA for performance reasons, get the extra year of control, and try to build his fastball velocity back up.”
yup….use the blueprint the Giants did with Bumgarder a couple of years ago….when the velocity starts to come back then bring him back up.
I’m still not worried as long as his shoulder is ok….if he’s throwing pain free the velocity should come back….and should come back for the most part this year.
Big boo for a-rod. Was ridiculous
I would get an MRI before sending him down, just to make sure they’re not missing anything.
GB, probably EST or Tampa, actually. AAA is too cold, especially with home base of Rochester.
Luis, thanks! Well, he’s hardly the only pitcher to have mechanical issues…..bu maybe they’re caused by fatigue?
Booing the kid? Booing any one in ST is embarrassing, booing a youngster trying his best is insane. Losers.
“His whole spring has been subpar. He has no velocity. we traded a 30 + home run beast for a number 4 starter”
His whole spring has NOT been subpar. No velo?
You’re going to look silly eating your words in the future, but I don’t think that will bother you. Better to indulge in entirely premature speculation.
Triple Short of a Cycle March 30th, 2012 at 8:11 pm
The worst trade in Yankee history after one bad start in ST? Wow..
———————————————————————-
His whole spring has been subpar. He has no velocity. we traded a 30 + home run beast for a number 4 starter
————————————————————————————————————————-
30 homer beast? I count 4.
GB,
Initially might be a good idea to send him to EST, but at some point they have to send to triple A to face real hitter and get him ready.
No pen for him either
Wow, I thought Pineda would be fine but tonight does give some rise for concern. He really had serious command issues. I don’t know if cutting the fastball is the problem or not. The command will be a problem though.
If there is concern of dead arm, and now it seems more obvious, they should send him to AAA where they can limit his innings this year and not push him too hard in his starts. Hopefully he can regain the velocity this year or at least some of it. But at this point it seems risky to keep him up and push that arm. I don’t think he’s damaged goods but it seems they should be cautious with him. He’s a potential ace.
wow. Just wow. Some of this blame has to go to Larry. He pretty much let Pineda hang himself out there.
Not a good outing for Pineda. This might have sealed his AAA fate.
He’s young, I have to believe he’ll get his velocity back. And I think he has good secondary stuff
Love Girardi for what he just did.
Looks like Pineda’s gearing up for TommyJohn surgery and out for the year….something about putting the pinstripes on does bad things to pitchers, except Sabathia when he pitches in the regular season….
Joe G. at least got a smile out of Pineda.
Pineda goes down for a month or two, comes back by mid june. Beast mode from the ASB onward.
Why do so many new Yankee pitchers lose their velocity?
——————————————————————
He lost his velocity last year before he even got here. Cash apparently didn’t think that set up any warning flags
Yankee Trader March 30th, 2012 at 8:10 pm
RadioKev-
When Pineda is sent down and Mitchell isn’t brought up as the long man, he might go to Trenton rather than the travelling wilburys of SWB.
Shame the locals are booing him.
———–
That would make sense.
I guess we’ll see what happens next start. I’d say Pineda has to look exceptional not to start the season in the minors now. It’s far from the end of the world for Pineda’s career, or the Yankees’ season.
That smile from Pineda was good to see. I still like this guy’s make up. He’s clearly frustrated by his performance, but it doesn’t seem like he takes the media attention to heart.
Man I was so hoping to see him just put it all together tonight.
They can’t put him in the pen.
Man I hope he doesn’t get car sick because he may have a lot of bus travel in his future.
Just because Pineda isn’t throwing the ball well now doesn’t mean he won’t be throwing well next week or next month.
The Yankees have a luxury of riches this year, in any other year Pineda would be in the rotation no matter what. He’s clearly not throwing the way he did in 2011, it seems to me he is the guy out of the rotation and given some time to work these things out-it’s either mechanical or just the hangover from last year.
It does make you wonder about the Yankees real valuation of Montero, though, it’s hard to believe they would trade a guy they really believe in for a guy who isn’t a finished product.
Nothing wrong with sending him to AAA if it helps him out. That’s not a badge of shame.
Papelpuke pitching now
Blake, I’m really not worried either – I’m sure it’s fatigue from heavy workload. I’d be fine giving him an MRI now as well but then he’s not suffering from what Phil was suffering from last year, a completely dead arm.
It has nothing to do with Yankee pitchers losing velocity; it has to do with young pitchers losing it. Other young pitchers have – and they’ve regained it. It’s to be expected when you come off a heavy workload. Phil regained his and Pineda will be just fine.
BronxBorn – never got any email.
“Pineda goes down for a month or two, comes back by mid june. Beast mode from the ASB onward.”
pretty much exactly what Madison did…..got killed in ST…was throwing 87 mph and could get anyone out….fastforward to October he was mowing down hitters on the way to winning the WS.
“Pineda will be just fine.”
Agree.
Looks like P failed the test. But….he’s just not ready, nothing wrong with that.
LOgical move would be to send him down to get his arm strength.
He is the prospect, Hughes and Nova have earned it.
30 homer beast? I count 4.
—————————————–
Care to wager whether he will be closer to 30 then 4?
Good going Papelbum! Right where we left off.
yankeefeminista March 30th, 2012 at 8:13 pm
GB, probably EST or Tampa, actually. AAA is too cold, especially with home base of Rochester.
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Most likely yes, EST is the most logical. Need to have the best pitching instructor available to him. What pitching coach on LoHud isn’t busy for the next 45 days?
MG, I’m sure the Yankees knew there was a possibility of Pineda suffering innings hangover, but since they made the trade for more than 2012, I think it says more about what they think about Pineda than what they don’t think about Montero.
this is the time for the yankees to embrace the kid and let him know he’s going to be here for a long time.
it was never fair to have him have to learn a change up and get ready to win games right out of the box.
i have always preferred he goes to triple a to start the season because it’s the most sure way to work in a safe environment to learn a plus change.
why learn a little better than mediocre change.
why not learn a plus change?
the only way to do that is throw a lot of them. thousands.the only place to do that is AAA.
then when he comes back to the yankees , he’d have three weapons and then we’re talking ace material.
i still will believe it when i see it if he actually goes to AAA to start the season.
We heard the same thing last year about Hughes
Betsy March 30th, 2012 at 8:13 pm
Luis, thanks! Well, he’s hardly the only pitcher to have mechanical issues…..bu maybe they’re caused by fatigue?
=================================
It his sophomore year, he had a jump in innings. Yup it is the most plausible explanation. The other one could be that he is hurt, and that produced the change in mechanics.
Triple Short of a Cycle March 30th, 2012 at 8:16 pm
30 homer beast? I count 4.
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Care to wager whether he will be closer to 30 then 4?
————————————————————————————————————————-
When he gets there, let me know. Right now, he’s got 4.
“His whole spring has been subpar. He has no velocity. we traded a 30 + home run beast for a number 4 starter”
Has montero ever in his life hit 30hrs in one season?
Positives from Pineda regardless of if he is sent down or not:
- His changeup is good, he throws it alot, and it gets swings and misses. He doesn’t seem to have a lip-service change like Hughes.
- His slider is one of the best pitches in baseball and he has 2-3 different variations he can throw. I’d like it more if he had one closer to 87 mph but even for a slower slider it gets ridiculous swings from people
Just have to get the fastball where it needs to be, its a really great fastball when its on. Movement, velocity, lots of swings and misses.
“I’d be fine giving him an MRI now as well but then he’s not suffering from what Phil was suffering from last year, a completely dead arm.”
looks similar….only Pineda has a better baseline of stuff than Hughes so he’s been able to be effective still….his slider is still nasty and almost like normal which is interesting
PAPS!!!!!
Pineda goes down for a month or two, comes back by mid june. Beast mode from the ASB onward.
——————————
Wouldn’t this mean someone else we don’t want to do bad is doing bad?
Triple Short of a Cycle March 30th, 2012 at 8:18 pm
We heard the same thing last year about Hughes
———-
Hughes was hardly cracking the 90s and his off speed pitches were also miserable. I’d say they’re different degrees.
Nothing wrong with sending him to AAA if it helps him out.
—————————————————————————————————————–
I agree. People need to remember Pineda is a young pitcher. Patience, people.
LOL! Take that, Paps!
Papelsuck!
Grandy goes yard
It makes me feel better than they are hammering Pimplebutt
Grandy is reaching 98 mph !
Papelpuss
Boom goes the dynamite.
Pap got smeared !
“We heard the same thing last year about Hughes”
Yeah – and look at Hughes this year. So maybe you need to cool your jets and watch what happens rather than donning your undertaker suit. Unless you are hoping that Pineda fails, of course…
“Hughes was hardly cracking the 90s and his off speed pitches were also miserable. I’d say they’re different degrees.”
Pineda hardly cracked 90 mph in the 3rd inning.
Papelpuke making the impersonation of……. Papelpuke!
I see Jerkface is doing an about face about Pineda
It stings now considering we just gave up Montero for him but AAA might be the best thing for Pineda right now. He’ll get things figured out down there under very little pressure and will be able to contribute down the road. The only thing that would be crushing now would be to find a major arm problem with him.
Garcia to the rotation.
Mitchell to the long man role.
Trish can you email me. The one I have for you not working
Yeah – and look at Hughes this year. So maybe you need to cool your jets and watch what happens rather than donning your undertaker suit. Unless you are hoping that Pineda fails, of course…
—————————————————————————–
Look at Hughes?? Has the season started yet?
Papelbon is throwing 94, look how awesome he is doing!
“Papelsuck!
”
“It makes me feel better than they are hammering Pimplebutt”
I hear ya!
luis March 30th, 2012 at 8:21 pm
Papelpuke making the impersonation of……. Papelpuke!
////
Is there an MLB player with a more hideous expression?
muwarriorsfan March 30th, 2012 at 8:21 pm
“Hughes was hardly cracking the 90s and his off speed pitches were also miserable. I’d say they’re different degrees.”
Pineda hardly cracked 90 mph in the 3rd inning.
———
How hard do you think most pitchers in baseball throw? Pineda was sitting 91MPH. Hughes was sitting 88-89MPH. World of a difference in the baseball world.
Wouldn’t this mean someone else we don’t want to do bad is doing bad?
–
Nah. I can see all 5 starters doing good and the Yankees doing something to get Pineda in there.
I don’t care if it’s spring training, anytime you touch up pimps is good.
There must be alot of either Phillies fans or Sux fans, the booing of Arod is not normal
The Yankees have a significant problem on their hands now in Pineda. And the most concerning part is that they really don’t seem to have a handle on what’s causing it.
As I’ve said here before – Pineda simply has not looked like the pitcher he was last year at all.
His arm simply is not as fast. It’s very noticeable the minute you see him throw. Last season he had that great “whippiness” in his arm action that great fastball pitchers have. It’s just not there anymore.
He’s not driving through his wind up to the mound. He’s not developing momentum. It’s as if he’s just not confident in what he can do out on the mound once the ball leaves his hand. He looks tentative.
And what’s really concerning – on the occasions when Pineda has tried to reach back for something extra – it hasn’t been there at all. Neither velocity nor location have been there. Just flat. Everything is flat even when he tries to muscle up.
All spring long Pineda has been saying that velocity isn’t an issue. That there’s more there. Clearly what he was saying was not accurate. It’s the end of spring – and he just doesn’t look right.
And tonight was especially worrying. Tonight it looked like his shoulder wasn’t right. He was dropping his arm angle very badly. He wasn’t getting behind or on top of the ball at all.
This could be a dead arm period. It could be something closer to what Hughes had last season.
Either way – the Yankees better be very careful. What you don’t want to see is Pineda trying to reach back just to win a game and blowing out his shoulder. That’s a very real possibility right now.
The drop in velocity isn’t an issue because of his effectiveness. He might be able to be effective at 90-91. The main reason it’s a concern is that it’s a sign that something is seriously wrong. Either it’s an injury or mechanics or both.
It’s unpalatable – but the Yankees are going to need to send him to the minors. They should not expose his first experiences in NY to having to pitch in the bigs without a heater he’s relied on for his success. If he goes north without his tools and struggles the media storm will engulf him.
If he goes north as he is right now all the Yankees are doing is setting him up to get seriously injured.
Ithis Johnson is the face of LA sports is getting a little old already. Have they forgotten Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Sandy Koufax?
“Look at Hughes?? Has the season started yet?”
Well you’re the one making all of these pronouncements based on Pineda’s ST. I guess we need to make equal pronouncements based on Hughes’s.
Fair is fair.
People can spin it all they want about it being good to send him to triple A but ask yourself something. When Cash made the trade did he expect him to start in Triple A
Did anyone here think he was going to start in triple A when the trade was made?
But why overreact. Wang will be fine, Tex will start hitting 280 again.
“Is there an MLB player with a more hideous expression?”
Nah!
I see Jerkface is doing an about face about Pineda
–
Nah, I would reverse the trade 100 times out of a 100, but the trade is different from Pineda as a player, who has a lot of tools and any team would love to have. I would never have paid Montero for him, but that doesn’t change Pineda’s strengths as a pitcher.
MarcCarig Scout on Pineda: “All cut fastballs, most flat, and elevated from his slot.” 3 minutes ago · reply · retweet · favorite
Is there an MLB player with a more hideous expression?
No, Buckett a distant second
“Nah, I would reverse the trade 100 times out of a 100, but the trade is different from Pineda as a player, who has a lot of tools and any team would love to have. I would never have paid Montero for him, but that doesn’t change Pineda’s strengths as a pitcher.”
Bravo! I think that’s where a lot of us are coming from.
Grandy is one of a very small number of players who have multiple homers off Papelbon in the regular season.
I’d like to see that matchup in October.
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 8:22 pm
”
“Papelsuck!
“It makes me feel better than they are hammering Pimplebutt”
I hear ya!
Papelpuke making the impersonation of……. Papelpuke!
LOL! Take that, Paps!
///
///
Randy-
Was wondering when you would chime in. Pineda has more than a CU to work on. He didn’t look right all night-body language, hesitation between pitches, location, velocity.
I would definitely make sure there is nothing structural going on by getting an MRI before he’s sent to whatever minor league team is deemed best for him in April.
Joe will have his rotation on Monday.
I don’t care if it’s spring training, anytime you touch up pimps is good.
————————–
This is reverse sexism.
“Did anyone here think he was going to start in triple A when the trade was made?”
Check it out. I was LOBBYING for it. But then I’m not a knee-jerker who demanded that Pineda be the rotation ace or I was going to pout the entire season.
Hey Bronx Born good to see our own Yankee Poet Laureate back. ( although I hope you don’t take that as a slight).
Check it out. I was LOBBYING for it. But then I’m not a knee-jerker who demanded that Pineda be the rotation ace or I was going to pout the entire season.
——————————————————————
So owhen they made the trade you expected him to start in Triple A?
Trader – I’m sure the Yanks will do what they have to do. This isn’t armageddon, any more than Nova giving up 5 runs to the Orioles was armageddon.
People really need to be careful not to overreact. It was an off night. Period.
Luis, I don’t think he’s hurt……..
Blake, you’re right, but a dead arm is a dead arm. Still, he has had a good spring although most are going to trash him and make it seem like he’s been awful. It’s no shame to go to AAA; he’ll be back at some point and on his way to being a tremendous pitcher.
Trisha,
When Wang was getting bombed his last year with us did you think he would be ok?
Paps got major boo
Still, he has had a good spring although most are going to trash him and make it seem like he’s been awful.
————————————————————
A good spring is throwing 7 miles an hour slower then you did last year?
“Sowhen they made the trade you expected him to start in Triple A?”
When the trade was made I HOPED he would start in AAA. I didn’t yammer about how the rotation was going to be configured because I’m wise enough to know that I didn’t know. You might think about the same thing.
The team is the thing.
Whatever happens this season Pineda won’t have to bear the brunt of it.
Same with Montero. If the Yanks don’t hit, highly unlikely, Montero wouldn’t have been the difference.
Wang didn’t get bombed in spring training. Neither did Hughes last year. ANd Hughes hit 91-92 in spring, just didn’t sit there. Actually now its really reminiscent of Pineda this spring.
CB-
Just noticed your post. I had the same concerns about his shoulder. At one point he was grimacing and favoring his shoulder. It might have been nothing, but the heat, but it’s wise to get a full exam before he goes to the minors.
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 8:27 pm
“Did anyone here think he was going to start in triple A when the trade was made?”
Check it out. I was LOBBYING for it. But then I’m not a knee-jerker who demanded that Pineda be the rotation ace or I was going to pout the entire season.
—
I recall you wanted Kuroda in AAA…
CB,
As usual spot on. He can’t go north with the team like this. I do think that he is suffering from the same issue that Hughes suffered. Sophomore year with a jump in innings. Or he is hurt, but i don’t understand why they haven’t noticed anything wrong with him
I don’t care if it’s spring training, anytime you touch up pimps is good.
————————————————————————————————————————-
Probably goes for pimpettes, too.
or the bullpen.
I really don’t like the cut fastball – all it does is cause problems and does Pineda need it?
CB, don’t you think it’s more likely just a 1 year thing based on an innings hangover and Pineda will be fine next year? I absolutely don’t want him overthrowing……..Let him go to AAA where he can recover and pitch in peace.
Please Yankees, find a way to keep Maxwell.
Triple, when Nova got bombed playing the Orioles, I didn’t worry about it. I’m not worried about what happened to Pineda tonight. He’s got enough of a body of work behind him that people know he’s for real.
I am not prone to unnecessary panic.
So you really need to talk to someone else if you want to be indulged in your worry/hopefulness, whatever your gig is.
Papelpuke now making the impersonation of……….Puke!!!
I think once the decision is made and Pineda goes down, he might be better off. Right now he’s under pressure to try and make the team and that can’t be helping any. Once he’s in AAA, he can relax and just go out there and pitch.
Coney says Maxwell looks like he belongs.
He’s pretty astute.
Swish might not be ready, groin and all.
“I recall you wanted Kuroda in AAA…”
You recall that I didn’t want Kuroda on the team.
dfa ibanz and keep maxwell
Trisha,
You didn’t answer my question. Were you worried about Wang or not?
maxwell strikes
He’s got enough of a body of work behind him that people know he’s for real.
==========================
1 season? 1/2 good?
I really don’t like the cut fastball – all it does is cause problems and does Pineda need it?
–
He could be getting cut on the ball without physically throwing a cut fastball. There is a difference between pitches as intended and pitches as result. If Pineda’s mechanics are off like Blake & CB & Cone posit then the cut is pitches as result, instead of as intended.
CB’s post just depressed me.
How bad a night would it be for Cashman if he found out Meanwell made bail today?
4,000 seems to be out of reach. 3500-3600 is within reach.
The trade was a prospect for a prospect, neither a sure thing yet.
Betsy, I don’t think there’s anything unpalatable or shameful about Pineda going down, if that should happen. Hughes went down, and he survived.
It’s really not that big a deal. If it helps him to get things straightened out, or if he’s going through a tired-arm period, why not?
It would certainly solve the Ys immediate problem, and it would take pressure off Pineda. Face it, coming to the Bronx isn’t easy under any circumstances, coming with a huge spotlight on you is even worse!
Jerkface, that’s interesting; I’d not thought about it. Mechanical issues can be fixed, so I’m really not concerned at all about Pineda.
That’s why you never have enough pitching.
The trade was a prospect for a prospect, neither a sure thing yet.
—————————————————————
except young pitchers are riskier then young hitters
Jerkface, that’s interesting; I’d not thought about it. Mechanical issues can be fixed, so I’m really not concerned at all about Pineda
———————————————————————-
Because the Yanks have been so successful with young pitchers
“It’s unpalatable – but the Yankees are going to need to send him to the minors. They should not expose his first experiences in NY to having to pitch in the bigs without a heater he’s relied on for his success. If he goes north without his tools and struggles the media storm will engulf him.”
cb-
the really weird thing is the yankees could keep him in the rotation and he could roll out 4-5 victories.
one game doesn’t change my mind about him.
i had said from the beginning that he was a very raw pitcher. very talented but raw. i said he should start the season at triple a simply because that’s the place to learn a pitch he had to improve significantly . his change up was so bad from what i read and saw in one game that i watched in full that i wouldn’t even call it a change up. it was an attempt at a change up.
that said, he’s a yankee now and he could be really good. the question is how to get there. i think his velocity is down simply because he wasn’t in shape coming into camp. he’s had to play catch up all spring. all the while having to learn a significantly better change up.
people like russell martin down’t help him when they blow smoke how great the change up is. you don’t often learn a plus new pitch that fast. and it appears he didn’t.
now they of course should , as they should have anyway, send him to triple a to get in shape , get his fastball where he wants it and learn the new plus change.
think the weapon that he is up the yankees sleeve 6 weeks to two months into the season.let the yankees lay in the weeds with him to use when they need him. what other team has a michael pineda to unleash when they chose ?
he should have always been sent to AAA right form the get go, but now that yankee circumstances have changed, it is definitely where he should be.
but as i said, i’ll believe it when i see it.
“I had the same concerns about his shoulder. At one point he was grimacing and favoring his shoulder. ”
Pineda was dropping his arm angle. That’s can happen when a pitcher if feeling fatigue or pain in his shoulder.
I’m not sure what was going on. But tonight was his worst appearance this spring in terms of mechanics.
Going into tonight I was concerned about the emphasis and importance on this spring start for him.
He knows very well that the issue with him is his velocity. If you know that there’s a chance you’ll get sent to the minors if you don’t throw hard enough you are going to try to throw hard. That’s just natural.
When he tried to throw hard tonight it wasn’t there. And his mechanics got worse.
He can’t throw normally from the arm angle he had tonight.
“CB’s post just depressed me.
”
Don’t let it. He’s giving his opinion, nothing more nothing less. Pineda isn’t dead, Pineda threw some good pitches tonight. The Yankees will figure the rest out.
it’s risk vs reward…pitchers are worth more.
Trish, and anyway, who cares what the media says? As long as the Yankees do the right thing, that’s all that counts. Halladay had to get completely made over and Cliff Lee was demoted at one point as well; I’m sure there are other examples of terrific pitchers who had to deal with being sent back to the minors. It’s for his own good and even though I wouldn’t expect Pineda to be happy about it, in the end (assuming the AAA PC is any good) he’ll be the better for it.
NYYs could either bring in manager, Justin Pope from Staten Islnad or send Pope to AAA for 45 days and send Scott Aldred to Tampa to work with Pineda.
“don’t you think it’s more likely just a 1 year thing based on an innings hangover and Pineda will be fine next year?”
I don’t think it’s any kind of structural injury. He doesn’t appear to be having injury type of pain.
But it would be very bad if he had what Hughes had. To lose an entire season at his age is a big problem.
It’s better than a tear in the shoulder or TJ but if he has the kind of dead arm that lasts a whole season – it would be very problematic for so many reasons.
When he tried to throw hard tonight it wasn’t there. And his mechanics got worse.
He can’t throw normally from the arm angle he had tonight.
=========================================
So maybe they learned something they didn’t know tonite, not a bad thing.
With this knowledge they have to send him down to fix it.
Makes you wonder if Seattle knew something and weren’t saying.
Can we take Maxwell instead of wade?
Betsy, absolutely agree.
And the good news is that it won’t hurt the Yankees rotation by sending him down, if they should. They’re all set up!
You also can’t use this forum as a gauge because you know that they were ready to trade Cano and run off Granderson.
Patience is a virture.
“Mechanical issues can be fixed, so I’m really not concerned at all about Pineda.”
Mechanical issues are not causing this great a loss of velocity. That is something else and what the concern should be about.
Can we take Maxwell instead of wade?
=======================
we can dl swisher and max starts in RF
“He could be getting cut on the ball without physically throwing a cut fastball.”
That’s what it looks like. He’s not intentionally trying to throw a cutter. It’s just happening by accident.
There have been a bunch of pitches this season where it’s just been puzzling what he’s throwing because the ball has action on it that it just shouldn’t.
Trish, and anyway, who cares what the media says?
————————————————————–
Now who cares what the media says?? Funny since everyone was pointing to the media saying how we won this trade to prove that it was a good trade.
“It’s unpalatable – but the Yankees are going to need to send him to the minors. They should not expose his first experiences in NY to having to pitch in the bigs without a heater he’s relied on for his success. If he goes north without his tools and struggles the media storm will engulf him. ”
totally agree….they have the depth and there is no reason to expose him to NY until he’s right…..they can’t screw this up after trading Montero for him….they have to get him right then let him pitch. So long as he’s healthy….he should be fine….this is obviously the same stuff we said about Hughes last year…and it turned out he wasn’t healthy…but the good news was that the injury wasn’t serious and his arm bounced back eventually…..the big question they have to answer is …..is this health related? hopefully it’s not.
Makes you wonder if Seattle knew something and weren’t saying.
==================
After how they played us with Lee…i believe anything from Jack Z….Even though i was glad that the trade never happened, what he did is classless
Tar – dead arm can cause loss of velo. Pitchers also recover from dead arm.
Why get out the grim reaper sickle if it’s not necessary.
Is there any crime in waiting to find out the real deal?
But then again, this is the same forum that had Joba out of baseball the day his injury was announced.
Chavez has done well over the last year at learning to play 1st base. Nice that he has a 3rd baseman’s arm.
CB, oh that would be horrible, I agree. I think they should just send him for an MRI at this point, though he’s not complaining of pain. I don’t know what his injury history is or if he tends to keep quiet about it, which Phil has done before. Better to be safe than sorry. I know Verlander and others have had velocity drops and suffered on field because of it. They didn’t lose seasons the way Phil did……and I don’t know if it’s because they just pitched through it instead of taking the time off. Of course, each pitcher is built differently and what one can pitch through, another can’t.
“i had said from the beginning that he was a very raw pitcher. very talented but raw. i said he should start the season at triple a simply because that’s the place to learn a pitch he had to improve significantly . ”
randy,
I agree with you. But the real problem is that this is no longer about learning.
This is an entirely different, more complex, more worrying problem. This is a whole different story than the issue of how to best develop that third pitch.
To be honest- I’ve been impressed with both his slider and change this spring given where that change was last year. It’s not completely there- but it’s much better.
Now that said-he doesn’t have his normal arm speed so whether or not he can throw his change with true deception with baseline arm speed is unclear.
But this is much more serious than him needing to learn. This is not good. His arm angle-not good.
“When he tried to throw hard tonight it wasn’t there. And his mechanics got worse. ”
when he tried to throw hard the velocity wasn’t there and the ball started getting up because of where he was throwing it from…..he’s been cutting the ball all spring….but I haven’t noticed the arm angle stuff as badly as tonight….he’s been flying open a lot and yanking pitches but tonight he wasn’t on top of his fastball……as I said earlier though I think it’s interesting that his slider has still looked so good at times as usually that suffers as well with this type of problem….maybe it’s not as good as last year but it’s still been nasty at times.
Triple Short of a Cycle March 30th, 2012 at 8:46 pm
Trish, and anyway, who cares what the media says?
————————————————————–
Now who cares what the media says?? Funny since everyone was pointing to the media saying how we won this trade to prove that it was a good trade.
////
Predictable, no?
we can dl swisher and max starts in RF
–
Swisher is pain free though.
I’d put Ibanez on the 60-day DL. Then the 360 day DL.
I know Verlander and others have had velocity drops
——————————————————————
Only 1 MPH
“Makes you wonder if Seattle knew something and weren’t saying.”
I’m not wondering, especially because Pineda himself said he wasn’t airing it all out.
If he can rest his arm by not starting in the majors, more power to him.
Lohud is at its absolute worst when it comes to jumping to grandiose conclusions (and looking dumb in the process.)
Can’t we just let it play itself out and see what it’s all about?
JMO
The only thing Seattle wondered was where they could get a bat. They have some young pitchers coming up.
JF,
There’s also the 162-game DL.
Now they are talking about Jered Weaver in the running for Cy Young-doesn’t his fastball max out at 89-90?
“I’d put Ibanez on the 60-day DL. Then the 360 day DL.”
with what? SBS (Slow bat syndrome)?
Swisher is pain free though.
====================
what else would he say?
No need to be a hero in ST, cap’n. Take it easy – long way to go!
CB,
Do you think this could mean career threatening? or more in the realm of last year Hughes?
“Now they are talking about Jered Weaver in the running for Cy Young-doesn’t his fastball max out at 89-90?”
I think he gets it up higher every now and then…..but he has incredible command and incredible deception with that delivery…..
CB is right, this is not about Pineda learning (a third pitch). For some reason he is dropping his arm. Hopefully he has just lost his mechanics and that’s it. It could be dead arm/lack of strength. Hopefully there is not a structural problem. You can have a little problem and not really feel unusual soreness. They should mri his shoulder just as a precaution.
Can’t we just let it play itself out and see what it’s all about?
================
that is inevitable.
but why have a blog if we can’t wonder?
“they have the depth and there is no reason to expose him to NY until he’s right…..they can’t screw this up after trading Montero for him”
blake,
Their organizational strength is pitching depth. They can actually absorb the horrible new injury to Joba in the pen.
They are more than well stocked enough to give Pineda all of the time he needs. That’s not even remotely an issue.
But to be honest – I just don’t have much confidence in the team to do the right thing. Not after what they did with Hughes last season taking him north when he had no tools. I really am cringing right now as this organization has made so many pitching related moves that quite frankly are dumb over the past several seasons.
I have no idea what they are going to do. Thank goodness they resigned Freddy and Andy came back.
I really don’t have a good feeling about this. Even if they send him to the minors part of me is worried that somehow he’ll get “converted” to the pen later on this season.
J Al- that’s not really fair.
I don’t remember that it was the MEDIA who called it a good trade that made people feel heartened by it. It was the experts in the baseball world who said it was a good trade.
It’s the mainstream media that has been harping on Pineda, but we all know that they tend to overdramatize everything.
I agree with Betsy. Who gives a rat what the media says. I pay NO attention to their drivel.
There is Zero chance that the Mariners were hiding something medical from the Yankees.
rbi machine with a slap groundout to 2nd
I’m not wondering, especially because Pineda himself said he wasn’t airing it all out.
===========================
and you believe everything you hear?
“The only thing Seattle wondered was where they could get a bat. They have some young pitchers coming up.”
True that.
Now they are talking about Jered Weaver in the running for Cy Young-doesn’t his fastball max out at 89-90?
–
Average of 89, not max. He can max out around 94. Does have a great change, curve, and slider though. He has also had that velocity his entire career…
I just don’t get the comparative statements re: velocity. Each pitcher is different, with different skillsets. Velocity is what made Pineda great. And guys that are effective in the 80′s low 90s are the outliers, because there is only 1 greg maddux, and he retired.
“and you believe everything you hear?”
I believe Pineda.
There is Zero chance that the Mariners were hiding something medical from the Yankees.
==========================
who said anything about it being medical?
maybe he lost some velo, maybe his mechanics were off.
That Neal is just a born sniper.
why would you believe pineda?
Pineda never said he wasn’t airing it all out, he said his velocity will come. Then it never came.
Yankee Trader March 30th, 2012 at 8:55 pm
There is Zero chance that the Mariners were hiding something medical from the Yankees.
==========================
Trader,
Thanks, but how do you know? Do they have a disclosure clause?
“I think they should just send him for an MRI at this point, though he’s not complaining of pain. ”
Remember – Phil Hughes could have had a very serious surgery last season that could have permanently damaged his career all because of a possible false reading of that MRI that was done when he was having no symptoms.
He came close to being diagnosed with thoracic outlet when he didn’t have it. That’s what happens when tests get ordered. Some will invariably be wrongly positive. It’s just a matter of math.
Yankee Trader March 30th, 2012 at 8:55 pm
There is Zero chance that the Mariners were hiding something medical from the Yankees.
////
O but what I would give, what I would give, what I would give (not to see Pineda injured, but to just make the trade disappear).
CB-
I don’t have any concerns that Pineda will come back and be converted to the pen.
They have a CU pitcher in Wade, and curveballer in Robertson, a sidearmer slider in Rapada, if he makes the team. They don’t need him in the pen.
“I really don’t have a good feeling about this. Even if they send him to the minors part of me is worried that somehow he’ll get “converted” to the pen later on this season.”
lord don’t even mention that….I’m hopeful that they’ll utilize the luxury they have with the extra pitching and get him right…….
I really don’t have a good feeling about this. Even if they send him to the minors part of me is worried that somehow he’ll get “converted” to the pen later on this season.
=================================
Please CB, don’t even mention this!!!
“This is an entirely different, more complex, more worrying problem. This is a whole different story than the issue of how to best develop that third pitch.”
cb-
i still believe what i wrote back in february:
randy l. February 16th, 2012 at 8:33 am
“i’m more interested in the mechanical side of the game than the fan side and i know how hard it is to learn anything let alone at the mlb level with the yankees.
i agree if pineda learns a plus change and a plus two seamer he’ll ne a superstar who will be a bigger story in new york than lin.
even a passable change and a passable two seamer should give a catcher enough to work with for pineda at 97 mph to win 15-17 games with the yankees.
but everything you learn affects everything else you have learned. when he starts releasing the ball differently to throw a change and a two seamer, it may likely bleed into his slider and four seamer.
no one knows. the reality is change is hard. i guarantee if everyone on the blog had to lose one pound before they could post again on the blog that this blog would have about ten posts in the next week.
change isn’t easy and it doesn’t happen overnight.”
He came close to being diagnosed with thoracic outlet when he didn’t have it. That’s what happens when tests get ordered. Some will invariably be wrongly positive. It’s just a matter of math.
–
I’ve read more than a number of articles on the current health climate of forcing tests by doctors because they simply have to apply a CYA policy.
Jonesy!
Tar – dead arm can cause loss of velo. Pitchers also recover from dead arm.
Why get out the grim reaper sickle if it’s not necessary.
Is there any crime in waiting to find out the real deal?”
Trisha
I love ya but
I posted there is reason for concern because of a huge loss in velocity. And that’s how you respond? I know pitchers recover from dead arm,but that doesn’t make it any less of a concern at least for me. Im not saying write the kid off, but heck yeah there is reason for concern And why are you trying to stifle normal conversation about a brand new pitcher that the Yankees just acquired for one of their better prospects in recent memory ?This is not a game thread where a bunch of trolls are just being stupid, there are intelligent thoughts being exchanged. I just don’t get it.
“I’ve read more than a number of articles on the current health climate of forcing tests by doctors because they simply have to apply a CYA policy.”
of course….lawyers are ruining society
“Do you think this could mean career threatening? or more in the realm of last year Hughes?”
Luis,
No I don’t think so at all. Last year watching Hughes throw – I really didn’t think he was injured. He really looked like he had dead arm. Pineda looks the same. Not injured – just not having proper life in his arm.
In some ways him looking worse tonight may be a “positive.”
More than any other start this spring – tonight he really looked to me like he had dead arm. And pitchers can definitely develop some dead arm at this point in the spring. They’ve thrown enough to do so. So this definitely could get better in a few weeks or a month or so.
But it’s really difficult to say that yes this will be run of the mill dead arm that will resolve in a few weeks or if its some year long issue like Hamels, Bumgarner and Hughes had.
change isn’t easy and it doesn’t happen overnight.”
============================
Randy,
Very sad……But absolutely true.
Pruf-
Blame it on Pettitte. Had he not retired and taken his sweet time deciding he missed the game, the Yankees might not have looked for another young pitcher, content that Banuelos and/or Betances might be ready in 2013.
Girardi says he’s NOT working on a cutter.
Blame it on Pettitte. Had he not retired and taken his sweet time deciding he missed the game, the Yankees might not have looked for another young pitcher
———————————————————————–
Pettitte signing early would have only prevented the Kuroda signing not the Pineda trade
Nice play by Dickerson! I wish there was a spot for him….he can do some nice things
“Pineda never said he wasn’t airing it all out”
I believe you’re wrong there jerkface. I believe his most recent statement was that he wasn’t airing it all out.
In any event, one of my least favorite things on this forum is seeing people jump to conclusions. (not saying you are doing that, but it’s starting to have that feel). I’ve lived through it with two days of almost funereal discussion when Joba was taken out of a game a few seasons ago, and it turned out to be totally minor. I was one of a few voices saying that it was best to just wait to see what it was, but the forum doctors knew better and it was between posters agonizing and others declaring him out of baseball.
It’s not my style and it typically turns out to be incorrect speculation.
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 8:55 pm
J Al- that’s not really fair.
I don’t remember that it was the MEDIA who called it a good trade that made people feel heartened by it. It was the experts in the baseball world who said it was a good trade.
It’s the mainstream media that has been harping on Pineda, but we all know that they tend to overdramatize everything.
I agree with Betsy. Who gives a rat what the media says. I pay NO attention to their drivel.
///
trisha, the narrative has shifted several times in here.
Look, I don’t give a goddamn. I am not invested in who says what in here. I am crushed, sick, ill, and disgusted this year. That’s my truth. I’m a Yankee fan forever – nothing I can do about that. But there’s a pall over this season for me and that is just the way it is. Please don’t say you understand – because you don’t. That’s fine. We have our individual way, and I respect yours as yours.
Re Pineda, I feel for the kid and I want to see him do well. Not his fault he was dealt for Montero. I already like the kid, just a feel thing. I want the Yankees to do right by this young man and get him the mentoring/guidance they refused to give Chamberlain. I want Cashman to not this of himself, and do the right thing. But if I could erase this trade, I wouldn’t have to think twice about it. It’d be done.
Pregnancy tests can be wrong too, that doesn’t mean a woman doesn’t get one if she thinks she could be pregnant.
cb-
i really believe that all hell breaks loose when any athlete tries to learn something new.
i think that’s all that’s happening here with pineda.
if it’s an injury that would really be awful. i’m hoping i’m right about too much change too soon and too fast.
coming into yankee camp and having to learn a new pitch in 6 weeks is really kind of crazy. this the yankees. this was all new to the kid. it’s just too much too fast.
slow him down . start at triple a. let him learn the change at his own pace. he really has to establish the 94mph fastball first though. the change has to be developed off the good fastball.
if they send him to AAA and tell him to learn at his own pace i think he’ll be fine.
( i still wouldn’t have traded montero for him though but that’s another issue)
What else did Girardi say?
not *think of himself
I love that Cone is telling Girardi what’s wrong with Pineda in the interview
Good deal. At least Girardi, Rothschild and Martin are aware of Pineda’s delivery. That should make it easier to correct. Pineda’s no dummy and seems pretty coachable.
“he’s been cutting the ball all spring….but I haven’t noticed the arm angle stuff as badly as tonight….he’s been flying open a lot and yanking pitches but tonight he wasn’t on top of his fastball……”
blake,
I remember his first start this spring – minute he started to throw I thought to myself he’s really leaving a lot of velocity out on the mound because that front shoulder is opening so early.
So there was definitely that.
But tonight was very different. From the first pitch – just ugly. Just bad. He was so around the ball.
Being around the ball in one spring start – no problem. But add up this whole story – not good.
In any event, one of my least favorite things on this forum is seeing people jump to conclusions.
———————————————————————————
On the flip side it is also my least favorite thing when people assume everything will be fine and work out
nice communication
“What else did Girardi say?”
just that he was getting around the ball….no location….just didn’t have it tonight etc….
“I don’t have any concerns that Pineda will come back and be converted to the pen.”
I either.
blake March 30th, 2012 at 9:05 pm
Nice play by Dickerson! I wish there was a spot for him….he can do some nice things
///
Yea, he can. Nice short stroke, and the best instinctive OF of the “extra” 4th OF guys.
Wade hasn’t been very good this spring.
Jerkface-
When Doctors are dealing with high priced athletes, you know they are getting immediate attention and whatever costly tests are needed to protect the owners investment, more so that is afforded the lay people who have to wait for their insurance companies to approve their tests.
Thanks CB for your post. I say do whatever it takes to get him well, but no Bull Pen role for him. That would be beyond dumb, especially after the price we paid for him.
“Pregnancy tests can be wrong too, that doesn’t mean a woman doesn’t get one if she thinks she could be pregnant.”
No one is setting a date 9 months later based on a drug store pregnancy test. That’s not how it works.
And the downside to an MRI being wrong is surgery in an area of the body you never want touched if you are a pitcher. Hughes came very close to this happening to him last season.
I believe you’re wrong there jerkface. I believe his most recent statement was that he wasn’t airing it all out.
–
“I feel good with how I’m throwing,” he added. “Nobody throws hard in spring training because it’s spring training. You see a little more and a little more when you need it. That’s what I think – now I’m focused a little more in making a good pitch, getting better and better.”
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....z1qeVppay0
He is making excuses for his velocity. He never says he is doing it on purpose, only that he believes he has more in the tank and it will come in time. Come in time means he can’t do it now. Which is the point…
you’d think you’d want to touch your upper bounds while getting prepped for the season, its only smart to air it out so you know you can still do it and of course get a feel for it before you need to do it in a game.
Objectivity is certainly being compromised tonight even from some that I wouldn’t ever expected it from….Man, Martin must have been a hockey goalie as a kid
The worst part of the Pineda performance is that, while he is stuck still pitching spring training games, Jesus Montero is already playing in Big League games. So sad that Pineda is trailing Montero in getting back to playing real Big League ball. Suggests that the trade was a bust for the NYY.
CB,
I agree….hopefully it’s just that…correctable mechanical issues and possibly some dead arm from the innings jump last year…….it’s probably possible too that he just didn’t throw much this winter and tried to ramp it up too fast and it’s lead to fatigue. I just hope he’s ok healthy wise….because if he is there is really no reason to believe this won’t resolve at some point……
“On the flip side it is also my least favorite thing when people assume everything will be fine and work out”
Yeah, better to predict doom and gloom. Have at it. No one’s telling you not to.
Well-adjusted people wait to find out the reality and then they deal with it. People who prematurely panic or fall apart without knowing reality, well those are the ones who have a big problem.
I’m not one of them.
The pregnancy test thing would be a counter point if the test itself was to cut open a lady and look inside her junk for a baby.
Yankee Trader March 30th, 2012 at 9:04 pm
Pruf-
Blame it on Pettitte. Had he not retired and taken his sweet time deciding he missed the game, the Yankees might not have looked for another young pitcher, content that Banuelos and/or Betances might be ready in 2013.
////
He’s a symptom, not a cause, doc
.
Pat M. March 30th, 2012 at 9:10 pm
Objectivity is certainly being compromised tonight even from some that I wouldn’t ever expected it from….Man, Martin must have been a hockey goalie as a kid
————————————————————————————————————————-
I wish that he’d get out of goal sometime and work on his open ice slap shot. GOOOOOALLLLLL.
“The worst part of the Pineda performance is that, while he is stuck still pitching spring training games, Jesus Montero is already playing in Big League games. So sad that Pineda is trailing Montero in getting back to playing real Big League ball. Suggests that the trade was a bust for the NYY.”
I think it suggests that Seattle had a much greater need for a hitter in their lineup.
“But to be honest – I just don’t have much confidence in the team to do the right thing. Not after what they did with Hughes last season taking him north when he had no tools. I really am cringing right now as this organization has made so many pitching related moves that quite frankly are dumb over the past several seasons.”
Which is exactly why I was wary of making this trade. They didn’t get King Felix, a finished product in his prime, they got a guy who needed a lot of development and to hone his craft.
The Yankees have shown nothing over the years they know how to properly handle adversity that faces that young pitchers, whether it be physical, mental, mechanical, etc. They seem to exacerbate the problem.
Pineda is a huge problem, but it is compounded by the fact that he is going to be handled by guys who have shaky resumes at best at handling pitchers.
Yankee Trader March 30th, 2012 at 9:04 pm
Pruf-
Blame it on Pettitte. Had he not retired and taken his sweet time deciding he missed the game, the Yankees might not have looked for another young pitcher, content that Banuelos and/or Betances might be ready in 2013.
=====================
Trader,
Don’t throw salt in to the wound!
Stop defending this. The velocity is a real problem. Its fooliish to continue to pretend its not.
Yeah, better to predict doom and gloom
————————————————–
Have the Yankees done a good job developing pitching in your opinion?
I know I’m a complete alarmist and I react in the moment. It’s part of my charm, or lack thereof depending on your opinion.
But right now I’m furious our front office traded a monster who could hit opposite field bombs for a pitcher that is probably injured or will have at least part of this season be a lost year.
And our DH is Raul Ibanez.
Cashman’s back on my list.
Close to 400 posts on a Friday night spring training game… I gather Pineda’s start didn’t go so well?
Martin certainly has had a nice night behind the plate
“i really believe that all hell breaks loose when any athlete tries to learn something new.”
randy,
His fastball hasn’t been there from pitch one. I noticed it immediately in his first start. His first few pitches. He didn’t look like the pitcher he was last season.
This is an issue which is at best very indirectly related to the change. That’s not the issue as far as I’ve seen.
His change up has been good this spring. He’s lost what was his plus tool last season.
Hi G. Love…..if they’d let Hank have a say maybe things would be better
Does Randy have room on the bench for me? I’ll wear my Neil Allen snuggie.
They had absolutely no reason to make this trade. They were well-stocked with pitching. They had a need for an elite young bat moving forward.
This trade could live in infamy in Yankees history…. it is deplorable that they gave up on a bat like that for a prospect with shoulder problems and development ahead of him. If they got back a young established starter, it is one thing.
There is a reason why most were against the trade and still complaining months later – it was a dumb trade then, it is a dumb trade now. The risk – for both injury and performance trajectory – just made the trade too risky and not worth it for a star bat like Montero
Young pitcher comes to camp. Yankees try to teach change up. Fastball velocity never comes. Pitcher season is wasted. Anyone see this movie before?
G. Love March 30th, 2012 at 9:15 pm
You are not alone….
CB-
Now don’t interpret this article about false positive MRI’s when dealing with shoulder pathology as conclusive, because the population studied was rather small, but you’ll find it interesting:
lhttp://www.orthosupersite.com/view.aspx?rid=82944
I wish Kenny and Cone did every game….with the occasional Leiter and Oneil for comic relief.
@ Triple that’s the issue right. When it comes to pitching it’s not like the Yankees have a big track record.
“People who prematurely panic or fall apart without knowing reality, well those are the ones who have a big problem”
Trish is this hyperbole even neccessary. Who is panicking? Falling apart?
I see a lot of intelligent baseball people discussing a huge loss in velocity of a young pitcher.
I wish that he’d get out of goal sometime and work on his open ice slap shot. GOOOOOALLLLLL.
_____
GB, lol, I would be happier seeing a wrist shot from him–shorten it up!
This game has certainly left a lot of you crying in your parents basements.
“Very sad……But absolutely true.”
luis-
slow change is better because you own it. you earned it and it’s yours.
fast change is elusive. you think you have it and you do, then you don’t.
slow change is the way to go when learning new mechanics.
thousands of repetitions take time.
CB March 30th, 2012 at 9:10 pm
“Pregnancy tests can be wrong too, that doesn’t mean a woman doesn’t get one if she thinks she could be pregnant.”
No one is setting a date 9 months later based on a drug store pregnancy test. That’s not how it works.
And the downside to an MRI being wrong is surgery in an area of the body you never want touched if you are a pitcher. Hughes came very close to this happening to him last season.
—
The point is they shouldn’t not test him because once in a while the conclusions are wrong. If they don’t have complete faith in the first mri, get a second one, or a second opinion. The Yanks can afford it for a potential ace they will have for several years.
Pineda had some shoulder problems in the minors with Seattle, didn’t he? That alone should have been a red flag.
They gave up a sure thing, an all-star caliber young hitter for this guy. We shouldn’t be shocked though, Cashman’s track record when it comes to acquiring pitching, is what, 1-20? He simply has no clue and when Montero makes the AS team this year, he’ll look like an idiot yet again.
They didn’t trade some excess piece like Ian Kennedy or A-Jax, they traded away the best young hitter since Cabrera.
rollins also guaranteed the 2009 WS
“They had absolutely no reason to make this trade. They were well-stocked with pitching.”
I’ll disagree with you. They weren’t well-stocked with pitching at all, unless you are of the mind that the kids down below are ready to step into the bigs. Isn’t that what we’ve been preaching against since we saw that one time too many, when they weren’t ready at all?
I understood the trade, I saw that the Yankees didn’t see Montero in their plans, and I refuse to turn tail now just because Pineda had a bad outing.
But as I see this is turning into a lynching against the trade and just fueling the flames of those who were against it in the first place, I’ll leave you to keep each other company and to feel more indignant than ever. I’m not into unproductive pep rallies.
Great AB for Jeter…who is quietly having a very nice spring
Jerkface March 30th, 2012 at 9:13 pm
The pregnancy test thing would be a counter point if the test itself was to cut open a lady and look inside her junk for a baby.
–
I don’t know if you know this, but people aren’t cut open for MRI’s.
Jamie Moyer makes the Rockettes rotation. There’s room and hope for that Pettitte kid, yet.
Pineda had some shoulder problems in the minors with Seattle, didn’t he? That alone should have been a red flag.
–
Elbow problems.
The sad thing is Pineda is going to get killed by the fans. I would never book the kid. He didn’t ask to be traded for a prospect we all got a close look at in September and loved.
The Yankees need to keep his as far away from NY until his arm is checked out and his stuff is back as they can.
He needs a thorough exam…you know, like the one he should have gotten before Cashman signed off on the trade.
If you’re reading this Cash, I hope you’re pooping yourself. You screwed up. Big time.
CB- In case you couldn’t open the attachment. Small study so can’t draw it as conclusive, but interesting:
ORTHOPEDICS May 2011;34(5):362.
Incidence of False Positive Rotator Cuff Pathology in MRIs of Patients With Adhesive Capsulitis
by Bryan J. Loeffler, MD; Stephen L. Brown, MD; Donald F. D’Alessandro, MD; James E. Fleischli, MD; Patrick M. Connor, MDDOI: 10.3928/01477447-20110317-14
Abstract
The purpose of this study was to compare the incidence of presumed rotator cuff pathology based on radiologist and surgeon interpretation of preoperative magnetic resonance images (MRIs) with actual rotator cuff pathology found intraoperatively in patients undergoing arthroscopic capsular release for adhesive capsulitis.
The medical records of 38 consecutive patients who underwent arthroscopic glenohumeral capsular release for adhesive capsulitis between September 2001 and May 2007 were retrospectively reviewed. Radiologist and surgeon predicted status of the rotator cuff by prospective MRI interpretation was compared to the actual status of the rotator cuff intraoperatively. Radiologists’ preoperative MRI interpretations predicted a 57.9% incidence of rotator cuff pathology, while operative findings revealed a true incidence of only 13.2% (P<.0001). Radiologists accurately predicted the absence or presence of a rotator cuff tear in 19 of 38 cases (50%), compared to the surgeon, who correctly interpreted 29 of 38 MRIs (76.3%).
Interpretations of shoulder MRIs in patients with adhesive capsulitis may provide misleading information regarding rotator cuff pathology. The actual findings of shoulder MRI scans may lead to the appearance of false rotator cuff pathology in this population, and a high percentage of false positive MRI reports of rotator cuff tears was observed in these patients. If MRI is chosen as a diagnostic adjunct in this patient population, careful consideration should be given to its interpretation to avoid unnecessary or possibly aggravating surgical intervention.
I don’t know if you know this, but people aren’t cut open for MRI’s.
–
A false positive MRI test leads to you getting cut open, while a false positive pregnancy test doesn’t.
“Elbow problems.”
Yikes, even worse. That seems like a ticket for TJS at some point, no?
it is deplorable that they gave up on a bat like that
///
Tank,
Deplorable, that they gave up on a bat like that. Don’t even need to say anything else.
Knowing how good the bat was, you mean to say that between Tony Pena and Joe Girardi, and teacher’s pet Russell Martin, they could not have coddled and coaxed Montero’s glove to conjure at least a generic defender behind the plate??
What’s so special about Girardi, that he just threw up his hands at “go” on helping Montero grow his craft as a catcher? What’s wrong with these f’n people, that they get off scott free from criticism for not giving it a fair shake???
At least I have complete faith the yankees reviewed the medical records and gave pineda a thorough physical before the deal. I mean cash would never not do that.
Regards,
Pedro Feliciano
G. Love,
For what it’s worth – I really don’t think he’s hurt. As long as he’s not been hiding any pain he’s been having. And I don’t think that’s the case given how he’s throwing.
I just knew watching Hughes throw last season that he wasn’t injured. If Pineda’s pain free he’s not hurt. You can just see it.
That’s not much reassurance. But the concerns I’ve expressed aren’t related to a high probability of structural damage in his arm.
I really love Pineda as a pitcher. But what we’re seeing just isn’t him.
We’re not required to give our final verdict on the trade until midnight, are we?
randy l. March 30th, 2012 at 9:22 pm
“Very sad……But absolutely true.”
luis-
slow change is better because you own it. you earned it and it’s yours.
fast change is elusive. you think you have it and you do, then you don’t.
slow change is the way to go when learning new mechanics.
thousands of repetitions take time.
===============================
Randy,
When i played ball, i was a pitcher. The only way to learn a pitch is through constant repetition, hundreds of times before you even face a live batter. I remember in my house with a baseball practicing the grip of a pitch at nights, at school, everywhere. Just to make the pitch a second nature.
YT,
That’s interesting. This is just a function of math. It’s an example of how the world is Bayesian rather than frequentist.
“This is an issue which is at best very indirectly related to the change. That’s not the issue as far as I’ve seen.
His change up has been good this spring. He’s lost what was his plus tool last season.”
cb-
i’m glad you’re giving your analysis and i hope it turns out to be as good a discussion as we all had with wang’s arm angle a few years ago.
like that one, this will take some time to play out. i’m not going to have much more time to comment tonight, but i hope you continuing posting about your thoughts on pineda over the next few days and weeks.
i’m puzzled why you would think that he could come into spring training out of shape and reach his normal velocity where they were having him spend a lot of time on the change up.
but i’m open to other scenarios. you seem to be suggesting he has physical arm issues if i’m understanding you correctly. you could be right. all the more reason to start the season at triple a to build back up from the ground up. establish the fastball first and then work on the change .
Dickerson would be awesome if he could hit
Pain in shoulder?
Pineda reporting sore shoulder.
What did they just say about doctors and Pineda? Missed it.
Well CB-
My observations about Pineda and the grimacing were not unfounded, unfortunately.
that’s it. trade is officially a bust
Crap.
I don’t like this at all.
YF-
He finally admitted to Yankees that he had soreness in his shoulder.
He has been grimacing for his last 3 starts, so this may have been going on for a while.
Shoulder? Damn
I’ll disagree with you. They weren’t well-stocked with pitching at all, unless you are of the mind that the kids down below are ready to step into the bigs. Isn’t that what we’ve been preaching against since we saw that one time too many, when they weren’t ready at all?
///
CC, Kuroda, Nova, Hughes, Phelps/Warren/Mitchell all can pitch this year with few restrictions.
That’s not well stocked?? To say nothing of Banuelos possibly making an appearance in the fall as a second lefty (or Betances, who eats LHB for lunch.)
cashman got owned again!
“Soreness in shoulder”. Buh bye. Nice work front office.
Just to break the the chain of nay saying, this has been a fun game to watch, dont you think?
Pain in the shoulder. That’s not good, he might have hurt himself trying to generate velocity. Damn! i hope is nothing serious, his change up actually looked fairly good as well as the slider.
“If you’re reading this Cash, I hope you’re pooping yourself. You screwed up. Big time.”
He has unlimited job security. It is like an Isiah-Dolan situation. No matter how many questionable decisions he makes, he is absolved of blame as long as the tickets keep selling.
The thing is we all knew trading away Jesus would be crazy. No one trades a bat with that kind of potential. We’re not the Orioles here, the pitching pipeline is fine here. Yet the offense has no ways of improving itself in the coming years. Such a dumb trade and it would have been that way unless they had gotten back King Felix or someone elite AL starter who has proven durability.
YF,
He sure was grimacing tonight. No more so than when he was trying to get Ruiz with the bases juiced.
That was not the kind of hitter you wanted up there in that situation, with Pineda laboring. Good contact guy who was going to outlast him, there. I was frankly concerned, with how much he was laboring, and wanted them to come and get him right there.
Jerkface March 30th, 2012 at 9:26 pm
I don’t know if you know this, but people aren’t cut open for MRI’s.
–
A false positive MRI test leads to you getting cut open, while a false positive pregnancy test doesn’t.
—
Jerkface, you never struck me as a person who has a fear of technology, you know, being a systems analyst (iirc).
There’s nothing wrong with getting an MRI. They should try and see if only a mechanical fix is needed, but if he does not respond, they should test him.
The flip side of some of the anti test arguments here is, there is a physical problem, they don’t test because they are really closet Amish, he continues pitching and trying to improve his velocity, and he ends up with an injury that requires surgery instead of just treatment.
Thanks CB-
Had to look up Frequentists vs Bayesians!
http://www.statisticalengineer.....esians.htm
Jerkface-
What are you!!
It gets even worse: I’m reading reports that Montero learned Shinto meditation techniques while in Japan and then spent the whole flight home visualizing hitting dingers.
J. Alfred Prufrock March 30th, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Don’t forget Noesi, Andy and Joba, he wasn’t hurt then, so maybe he doesn’t go to that trampoline stuff.
Pineda with soreness? Maybe the pressure of needing to push his velocity up?
TomIn GA,
You won’t get many responses. Most are either kicking their dogs or hanging themselves from the shower rods.
As CB said, even when he tried to reach back for velocity, it wasn’t there.
The obsession the Yankees FO had with velocity might end up biting them big time if he sustained an injury from trying to overthrow or fight through a sore/dead arm to throw harder to impress them.
Yankees and pitching not good
I hate Cashman
Ooops, looks like that MRI is coming…
Melo is doing his thang
Yankee Trader March 30th, 2012 at 9:34 pm
YF-
He finally admitted to Yankees that he had soreness in his shoulder.
////
Not good.
Pineda has been grimacing for weeks; not sure how the hell we missed it.
Michael Feliciano.
When the idiot GM and manager keep talking about how they need to see more velocity, it shouldn’t be a shock if he tried to push his limits to generate it. It is late March, not late October in the World Series. They refused to take things slow with Pineda, despite their investment in him and excess pitching depth and it might end up making a bad situation even worse.
“CC, Kuroda, Nova, Hughes, Phelps/Warren/Mitchell all can pitch this year with few restrictions.”
You knew how Hughes was going to work? You knew that Nova was perfectly fine after having to leave the game in the postseason? So you knew how people would work out in ST. The Yankees were hardly well stocked. Nobody knew how ST was going to turn out. It’s easy to say now that you’ve seen Hughes pitch. Do you know that the Yankees intend to use Phelps/Warren/Mitchell this season as starting pitchers?
The Yankees had a shaky rotation and a lot of question marks. It was with that that they made the trades they did.
Tom,
The game have been fun. But as you may understand this are not very good news.
The obsession the Yankees FO had with velocity might end up biting them big time if he sustained an injury from trying to overthrow or fight through a sore/dead arm to throw harder to impress them.
///
Cashman has a naive infatuation with his idea of what an “ace” is. That’s why he’s dangerous. That “I have a dream” comment is just so revealing. What a weird thing to say.
Tried to throw harder, mechanics whack, finally admitted pain in the back of the shoulder during the outing.
Wet eyes, but didn’t cry or break down. Clearly upset.
Per Feinsand
Now it’s the back of the shoulder.
And the hits just keep on coming…….
Maybe some of you should think about how horrible one Ivan Nova has been this spring.
Add to that the potential of him needing Tommy John — forearm tightness in the ALDS; lack of control for the last few weeks… the symptoms pile up and persist.
Pineda pitched better than Nova last year.
Pineda has pitched better than Nova this Spring.
Thank you.
Somehow, I don’t think that this injury will require amputation. Perhaps I’ll just wait. Dr. LoHud isn’t that reliable.
yankeefeminista March 30th, 2012 at 9:40 pm
Pineda has been grimacing for weeks; not sure how the hell we missed it.
—
Pineda always makes faces when pitching, not sure there is anything to really interpret there.
Let’s look at the bright side….Maybe he was ordered to say that so they could have enough cover to send him down?
“The obsession the Yankees FO had with velocity might end up biting them big time if he sustained an injury from trying to overthrow or fight through a sore/dead arm to throw harder to impress them.”
Them, the media, and some inconsolable fans.
Cashman has a naive infatuation with his idea of what an “ace” is. That’s why he’s dangerous. That “I have a dream” comment is just so revealing. What a weird thing to say.
——————-
yes, that too.
Talked about how Pineda needs more than 2 pitches to be an ace and there are no aces with 2 pitches, while later saying they envision Hughes as a “frontline” guy this year and a guy who will win 15 games if he is healthy, no question.
I must have missed the rich array of pitches Hughes has to make him a frontline guy while Pineda who throws 3 MPH harder with a sick secondary piece and a CU miles ahead of Hughes still has “a lot of work to do”.
Cashman has 0 clue when it comes to pitching, he needs to stick to just making calls and transactions with the input of his manager, PC, scouts, coaches, etc.
luis March 30th, 2012 at 9:38 pm
J. Alfred Prufrock March 30th, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Don’t forget Noesi, Andy and Joba, he wasn’t hurt then, so maybe he doesn’t go to that trampoline stuff.
////
That’s right, forgotten man Noesi. Joba’s hurt, but he wasn’t at the time. Andy, they knew they sort of had on the hook.
You see? We have SO much f’n pitching, I’m forgetting guys
.
Triple Short of a Cycle March 30th, 2012 at 8:09 pm
Worst Yankee trade ever?
———————————————–
It could be
That would be Jay Buhner to Seattle Phelps.
“Somehow, I don’t think that this injury will require amputation. Perhaps I’ll just wait. Dr. LoHud isn’t that reliable.”
““Soreness in shoulder”. Buh bye. Nice work front office.”
It’s funny. But as I remember when people brought up the fact that the Yankees were the party absorbing nearly all of the risk in that deal due to the difference in propensity for injury much of the response was written off as “prospect hugging,” etc.
Pineda and Montero were “equal values” as assets. But they were in no way of equal risks. And how you felt about the deal really depended on whether or not you felt the Yankees had adequately priced risk into the deal.
If you liked the deal up front then that was contingent on a correct pricing of risk.
No second guessing this deal based on an arm injury. That reality was alway, always an inherent part of the deal.
MarcCarig
“I tried to throw harder today.” – Pineda
“Maybe some of you should think about how horrible one Ivan Nova has been this spring.
Add to that the potential of him needing Tommy John — forearm tightness in the ALDS; lack of control for the last few weeks… the symptoms pile up and persist.
Pineda pitched better than Nova last year.
Pineda has pitched better than Nova this Spring.
Thank you.”
Shhh! This is the Pineda bashing forum. The objectivity forum is ———->
YF-
Tonight was the first night I was playing close attention. Hopefully it’s going to be fairly minor, but I can’t blame the Yankees, who I’m sure ask all their pitchers how they are feeling multiple times. Could be that the new kid felt it was nothing to go to Giradi and cry about it. The Yankees didn’t put pressure on him, the media did.
I’ll call Dr. LoHud when I need a hair cut and a pedicure or a double quarter pounder and fries.
Wet eyes, but didn’t cry or break down. Clearly upset.
///
Poor kid. Usher him out of the spotlight and let him get healthy, do whatever he needs to do.
Things have a way of working out out all by themselves…
No possible way that Garcia isn’t in the rotation.
CC, Kuroda, Hughes, Nova, Garcia becomes…
CC, Kuroda, Hughes, Pettitte, Nova
Does/Did anyone have confidence that the Yankees would handle Pineda properly, in any aspect? That was another reason people were against the deal. Unless he came in and beasted from day 1, it was inevitable that the Yankees would need to be involved in the course of his development and steer it in some direction.
Already nice of them to pressure him in a meaningless ST game rather than quietly send him to AAA to build velocity.
Thanks, DaSaint – I forgot Freddy!
No pitching??
We have pitching out the butt.
“Tried to throw harder, mechanics whack, finally admitted pain in the back of the shoulder during the outing. ”
This was what I was afraid of coming into tonight. I really was. Basically Pineda’s spot on the team depended on him sitting 93-95.
He was incentivized to throw hard. And he tried. And he couldn’t.
This is concerning. He’s largest probability is that he’ll be fine and it’s just some tendinitis. But it’s a concern.
If he’s complaining of pain – now that warrants an MRI.
CB the warning signs were there. Pineda didn’t have a good second half last year and his velocity dropped off. Obviously not a concern to Yankees. May be it ought to have been.
Jerkface, you never struck me as a person who has a fear of technology, you know, being a systems analyst
–
Definitely not. But as a systems analyst I also don’t analyze things that aren’t broken
It used to be that doctors would remedy things as situations occurred, but we are getting more & more into situations where doctors run a gamut of tests. The more you run the higher the likelihood of finding something, even something which is not debilitating or requiring any fixing and then you get surgery and blah blah blah.
I’ve also read a book about it! Like most pitchers arms are pretty messed up, if you tested them randomly you’d probably have perfectly fine pitchers getting surgery.
Maybe this is just a function of me being annoyed at work when people ask me to look into something that is obviously user error
GB7,
True, but black thoughts before the battle begins result in that.
luis, certainly not good news, but not the end of the world. The boy goes down, comes back stronger, we all hope.
“I tried to throw harder today”…and couldn’t.
I know he’ll be disappointed, but going to AAA is the best thing right now. Figure this thing out, we got it covered for now.
CB March 30th, 2012 at 9:45 pm
““Soreness in shoulder”. Buh bye. Nice work front office.”
It’s funny. But as I remember when people brought up the fact that the Yankees were the party absorbing nearly all of the risk in that deal due to the difference in propensity for injury much of the response was written off as “prospect hugging,” etc.
Pineda and Montero were “equal values” as assets. But they were in no way of equal risks. And how you felt about the deal really depended on whether or not you felt the Yankees had adequately priced risk into the deal.
If you liked the deal up front then that was contingent on a correct pricing of risk.
No second guessing this deal based on an arm injury. That reality was alway, always an inherent part of the deal.
====================================
I never liked this deal for reasons that are well documented…But i feel for the kid, i think he could be very good. Let’s just pray that is nothing serious, shoulder injuries are more problematic than elbows.
“There’s nothing wrong with getting an MRI. They should try and see if only a mechanical fix is needed, but if he does not respond, they should test him.”
This has absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s a function of mathematics. What to do is entirely dependent on whether or not you feel the situation is best modeled as Bayesian or not.
And in these situations – it’s Bayesian.
“Wet eyes, but didn’t cry or break down. Clearly upset.”
I’m sure the booing a-holes didn’t help. Welcome to Yankee fanland, kid. They’re your pal until you’re down. That’s when they do their best kick-in-the-face move.
If Pineda really does have a shoulder problem, well… whatever, the trade was bad when it was made that would just confirm it.
Crappy news if true. The rest of the baseball world will be dancing for joy that another Yankee pitcher busts…
McGee/Sykes.
“No pitching??
We have pitching out the butt.”
Yeah – now. We didn’t when the trades were made.
They have nothing invested in Nova – in all likelihood, he is a placeholder until Banuelos is ready. If he works out, great, if not, no big deal, onto the next youngster in our stacked pitching farm.
They have FAR FAR more invested in Pineda and at stake. They traded away a generational bat for him. Pineda has a ceiling of an elite ace, Nova is a mid rotation guy.
In no way are their situations comparable. It will be disastrous if Pineda doesn’t reach his ace ceiling. What do they lose if Nova flames out? Nothing.
Citing ST numbers as a way to brush off the problems of Pineda is comical in every way. The manager himself said this was a big start for Pineda tonight and the GM/PC have been talking about his velocity all spring. I don’t see them criticizing Nova the same way and for good reason.
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 9:51 pm
“Wet eyes, but didn’t cry or break down. Clearly upset.”
I’m sure the booing a-holes didn’t help. Welcome to Yankee fanland, kid. They’re your pal until you’re down. That’s when they do their best kick-in-the-face move.
///
Consider yourself lucky, that you did not have to sit in NYS in 2009 and listen to Chamberlain mercilessly booed during those ridiculous 4-inning outings they devised for him.
Now THAT was brutal.
Nah CB – the risk of “not making it to opening day because of shoulder issues” was not part of the equation. That’s what physicals and medical reports are for at the end of the trade discussions.
All of this talk of stolen bases, people seem to forget that Rodriguez and Jeter have over 300 steals each.
I really like Rapada as a LOOGY. If they could get something useful for Logan they should go for it. Maybe they can put him in with Maxwell and whatever else. back to the braves with you Booney.
See if they have another Logan in Cabral and a devastating lefty specialist in Rapada. Save a million or two as well. They only have him for this year and next anyways.
“MarcCarig
“I tried to throw harder today.” – Pineda”
You know what really bothers me about this – what the heck were Girardi and Rothschild doing just sitting in the dugout?
I could see on TV that his shoulder was dropping. I’m a fan. It was so obvious his shoulder was dropping causing his arm angle to change.
Cone saw it straight away. Martin told Girardi that Pineda wasn’t staying on top.
Why didn’t they go out there and pull him from the mound?
You know that you cannot believe a word the kid says. It’s been made clear that his spot in the bigs depends on this start and on him throwing hard. He’s not going to be forthcoming.
And you very well know that if a pitcher is out there dropping his shoulder it very well could be a sign that he’s having problems in his shoulder – especially if he’s not throwing at normal velocity.
Pineda sucks
Who knew??
Oh yea me
Good one Cashman
I would guess that they are punching a ticket for NYC right now for Pineda on the next thing smokin’ out of Tampa.
Trish,
Aside from Andy, all those names where already in the fold.
The night the trade was made, Cashman told Klapisch he made an “enormous risk” making the deal because Montero is “Piazza, Cabrera” (in his own words).
He knew what he was doing but he did it anyway because he had the shiny new toy syndrome and he was shortsighted and impulsive. And may turn out disastrous for us. You do not trade away elite young bats like that for risks.
The Hughes parallels with Pineda are becoming starker and starker. His velocity is down, unable to touch his former average & reach his former highs. Hiding an injury. A lot of talk about ‘it’ll be there later’. Atleast the Yankees are experienced in handling this now. Pineda can go on the DL/stay in EST/go to AAA whatever instead of muddying up the rotation for the first month with lackluster performance.
No prob JAP.
I always felt it possible that Pineda could start in AAA. I just hope the kid isn’t injured, but even if he is, he’s only 23. Lots of time to get healthy and get back to the majors, presuming he goes down.
Yankees have oodles of young starting pitching depth: Hughes, Nova, Pineda, Warren, Mitchell, Phelps.
do people really believe that the Yabks don’t send a pitcher through the tubes before completeing the trade?
HAHAHA
Shoulder pain buh bye Pineda
NICE TRADE CASHMAN
Damn!
He hid the pain. That shows make up, but man!
Pain in the back around the scapula might just be simple muscle strain. It could even be gallstones, pain that radiates to the right shoulder.
I’m not writing off his season this early.
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 9:52 pm
“No pitching??
We have pitching out the butt.”
Yeah – now. We didn’t when the trades were made.
////
Trisha, how do you figure? The trade was made in January. The knew they were signing Kuroda. Hector Noesi was still here. If they felt things were dire, they had their shot to bid on Darvish (please don’t tell me about the buget). The trio at AAA was ready to help out LAST year. Anyone following the prospects or hearing reports knew they were legit depth.
They did not need to trade Jesus Montero to shore up their rotation.
shoulder surgery like johan santana. out for 1 1/2 yr
This has become like a real, regular, mid-season game thread.
Spring Training has worked for Lohud!
“he risk of “not making it to opening day because of shoulder issues” was not part of the equation. That’s what physicals and medical reports are for at the end of the trade discussions.”
Absolutely not true. That is just not how young pitching works. Not at all. There are so many examples of things going wrong physically that were “unanticipated.”
I wrote this at the time of the trade. There’s is a small but definite chance that Pineda gets hurt in the spring and never throws a pitch for the yanks.
That’s a very real possibility with any 23 year old pitcher. That’s just the reality of the game.
If you don’t acknowledge that then you’ve priced risk in the transaction incorrectly.
That’s like saying how could I guess Russia was going to nationalize the Sakhalin island. Who could have guessed?
do people really believe that the Yabks don’t send a pitcher through the tubes before completeing the trade?
–
Yes. MRIs aren’t part of a normal baseball physical.
Well, Pineda’s velocity was way down in his last start for Seattle last season, so it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if something was wrong back then.
Gang, Montero has proved nothing yet. And I hated seeing Montero go, but I hate the overstatement even more. Please stop pretending that Montero is Babe Ruth and Pineda is an unproven commodity. It’s ludicrous.
I don’t know if the lesson can be learned (well yeah it can because I learned it, meaning that anyone can) but there is no percentage in getting so overly-attached to any player that it actually impacts your life is the player is traded. Baseball is a business. We don’t get to make the decisions. But once they’re made, it’s healthier to look forward than to look backward. I speak from experience. I learned the hard way.
Montero was as healthy as a horse too
Pineda had elbow issues in the minors, which is usually a precursor to needing Tommy John at some point.
Any advantage they extracted from the player vs. player swap was immediately negated when the injury factor was taken into account
do people really believe that the Yabks don’t send a pitcher through the tubes before completeing the trade?
———————————————————–
The Yabks probably don’t do their due diligence, but you better believe the Yanks do!
DaSaint007 March 30th, 2012 at 9:58 pm
No prob JAP.
I always felt it possible that Pineda could start in AAA. I just hope the kid isn’t injured, but even if he is, he’s only 23. Lots of time to get healthy and get back to the majors, presuming he goes down.
Yankees have oodles of young starting pitching depth: Hughes, Nova, Pineda, Warren, Mitchell, Phelps.
===============================
So why did we traded Pineda for?
J. Alfred Prufrock March 30th, 2012 at 9:44 pm
luis March 30th, 2012 at 9:38 pm
J. Alfred Prufrock March 30th, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Don’t forget Noesi, Andy and Joba, he wasn’t hurt then, so maybe he doesn’t go to that trampoline stuff.
////
That’s right, forgotten man Noesi. Joba’s hurt, but he wasn’t at the time. Andy, they knew they sort of had on the hook.
You see? We have SO much f’n pitching, I’m forgetting guys .
—
But you included Andy, who they had no idea would pitch or not, and how he could pitch, so that makes it even.
Pettitte was completely not a consideration when trying to plan.
This is what they had:
CC
Kuroda (they could sign him and not Pineda)
Nova
Hughes
Garcia
Noesi
Phelps
Mitchell
Warren
etc.
I can see the argument that that is enough pitching, and someone might rather keep Montero, however I can also see the argument that there are questions about that pitching in general after CC (before anyone threw a pitch).
Still a fun game to watch.
GB – what tube did they send Feliciano through?
I would guess that they are punching a ticket for NYC right now for Pineda on the next thing smokin’ out of Tampa.
————————–
Isn’t Tampa famous for cigars? He could probably use one about now.
“Pain in the back around the scapula might just be simple muscle strain. ”
Absolutely. It’s still extremely unlikely this is anything serious. It’s probably minor and it will resolve on it’s own.
If anything – at least we have something of a cause for this lost velocity. In fact if it is some tendinitis or a strain it could be better than him having the kind of dead arm Hughes had.
It’s just very fortunate the Yankees have so much pitching depth. They can afford to be cautious and not push him like they did to Hughes.
All that said – it’s never good for a pitcher to have any problems with his shoulder.
J Al, I think the sad reality is that they had no intentions of working Montero into their plans. It sure looks that way. How many times did people here say that they thought Montero was going to be used as a trade chip? He had already been put forward in one trade, maybe that was the handwriting on the wall.
So I’m thinking that they valued pitching more than they valued Montero. Maybe they weren’t going to keep Montero no matter what.
I believe they needed pitching but again, maybe they could have done it without getting Pineda. But I don’t think anything was going to save Montero. JMO
Lot of alarmists tonight with no medical background. Elbow pain does not equal need for TJ. All shoulder pain is not a precursor for Labral tears.
“Absolutely. It’s still extremely unlikely this is anything serious. It’s probably minor and it will resolve on it’s own.
If anything – at least we have something of a cause for this lost velocity. In fact if it is some tendinitis or a strain it could be better than him having the kind of dead arm Hughes had. ”
Me too.
***********
tomingeorgia, I think this is a fun game too!
Jerkface March 30th, 2012 at 10:00 pm
do people really believe that the Yabks don’t send a pitcher through the tubes before completeing the trade?
–
Yes. MRIs aren’t part of a normal baseball physical.
—
But they should be, at least for a trade of this magnitude.
Yankee Trader,
Face the facts. Pineda is dead. Long Live Pineda.
I still don’t understand why Girardi and Rothschild just sat there and let him throw pitches like that when there was clearly something wrong with him dropping his shoulder.
Coming into this start you had to be very concerned about something being wrong with his arm given his velocity this spring and his velocity to close out last season.
And they just watched him throw pitches like that?
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 10:01 pm
Forget Montero…..We didn’t need Pineda, you wanted to trade Montero because he is not good enough, Fine…..Get a bat….This trade was flawed because management misunderstood their needs and weaknesses….We might have lost Pineda for a while, we are still a very good team, nothing happened….You lose Arod or Tex doesn’t perform as expected you are screwed.
Stolen bases, good hitting, fun to watch. Does anybody watch?
“Lot of alarmists tonight with no medical background. Elbow pain does not equal need for TJ. All shoulder pain is not a precursor for Labral tears.”
YT – that’s what I was getting at earlier. And GB was trying to say the same thing. Overdrama at its best whenever anything happens that doesn’t track with the need for everything to be picture perfect.
“Stolen bases, good hitting, fun to watch. Does anybody watch?”
Oh yeah.
Luis, Montero was traded because
1) NY management didn’t think he was the long-term answer at C, despite the bat.
2) there’s a long term occupant at 1B, and there are a couple older Legends who need to take up some DH time over the next few years
3) Despite the depth (and I didn’t mention Banuelos and Betances), Warren, Phelps, and Mitchell don’t project to have the upside Pineda.
4) the Yankees prefer power arms over finesse pitchers.
Correction: *You might be screwed* I change it because i think the pitching can still carry this team.
Bernier with the gun.
DaSaint007 March 30th, 2012 at 10:11 pm
Luis, Montero was traded because
1) NY management didn’t think he was the long-term answer at C, despite the bat.
2) there’s a long term occupant at 1B, and there are a couple older Legends who need to take up some DH time over the next few years
3) Despite the depth (and I didn’t mention Banuelos and Betances), Warren, Phelps, and Mitchell don’t project to have the upside Pineda.
4) the Yankees prefer power arms over finesse pitchers.
==========================================
DaSaint,
It was ironic….I do understand the logic of the front office for the trade….I just happen to think is flawed. But thanks for the post.
MRI tomorrow for Pineda. Autoposy to follow.
That was a web gem. Is Bernier out of options?
“I still don’t understand why Girardi and Rothschild just sat there and let him throw pitches like that when there was clearly something wrong with him dropping his shoulder.”
For some of us it was so obvious that he was laboring that this is a question that needs to be asked and answered.
Chad It’s time to ask the hard question for us buddy. Why did they wait?
That was a web gem. Is Bernier out of options?
–
No.
Good off-topic news.
Rangers just won their 50th game.
No team’s gonna feel good about having to beat them 4 times.
It’s pretty important that Pineda said it was a little sore and not pain.
Mark Feinsand ? @BloggingBombers
Michael Pineda: “When I’m throwing, it’s a little sore. Sometimes every player doesn’t feel 100 percent when they play every day.”
“I can see the argument that that is enough pitching, and someone might rather keep Montero, however I can also see the argument that there are questions about that pitching in general after CC (before anyone threw a pitch).”
I agree. I think they did the right thing by getting Pineda.
“This trade was flawed because management misunderstood their needs and weaknesses”
luis, I have to disagree. Again, the Yankees were 2nd in the majors last season in offense. It’s hard to argue that you should go after offense when your pitching ended up in a shambles. (Hughes was unreliable last year and Burnett was not going to be given any more chances. Nova had been removed from the rotation with an injury. Exactly what was your sure bet pitching?)
They were looking to their future, not just one season. I can’t fault them for that. JMO
Joba was actually tweeting about the Rangers mid-jump.
True story.
Tar,
Because they don’t know the pitcher…Some people were saying earlier that he usually makes those kind of gestures….Maybe that’s what they have on their scouting reports.
Sweet trade cashman
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 9:41 pm
“CC, Kuroda, Nova, Hughes, Phelps/Warren/Mitchell all can pitch this year with few restrictions.”
You knew how Hughes was going to work? You knew that Nova was perfectly fine after having to leave the game in the postseason? So you knew how people would work out in ST. The Yankees were hardly well stocked. Nobody knew how ST was going to turn out. It’s easy to say now that you’ve seen Hughes pitch. Do you know that the Yankees intend to use Phelps/Warren/Mitchell this season as starting pitchers?
The Yankees had a shaky rotation and a lot of question marks. It was with that that they made the trades they did.
///
Nope, you’re being unfair and inaccurate. I have been saying forever how loaded our pitching is.
I expected Hughes to pitch well, he was the victim of 2nd year blues, maybe what Pineda’s got going on. I have posted that Hughes likely had a tired arm last year and saw no reason why he would not bounce back. I didn’t “know” he’d pitch this well, but I thought it was a good bet he would. I, unlike some, have never thrown in the towel on Hughes.
The trio from AAA can get people out, and each pitched in the 150 area of innings last season. If the Yankees are reluctant to use those guys, shame on them: that’s part of the problem: idealizing other team’s arms and not giving a fair shake to your own.
Noesi, some consider to have greater upside than Nova (I prefer Nova, but that’s neither here, nor there). Garcia/Kuroda/CC/Nova/Hughes/Noesi/Warren/Phelps/Mitchell. Andrew Eugene Pettitte on the hook, Yu Darvish out there for the taking. No way you “need” to trade an uber bat to “fix” your rotation.
trish,
I’m with you. Things will work out.
Chad It’s time to ask the hard question for us buddy. Why did they wait?
===============
They’ll only lie. What a soap opera this place has become…
DaSaint007 March 30th, 2012 at 10:11 pm
The reality.
Aside from the pitching questions, I don’t remember a ST where the Yankees have this many good defensive/bench options vying for a job. Bernie’s, Maxwell, Dickerson, Hall…
Did I say Hall?
Update: Jack Curry said during the broadcast that Pineda was sore before the game but didn’t tell anyone. He did describe it as normal soreness, however. Sweeny Murti said the Yankees will play it safe and send Pineda for an MRI in the morning. ·
Joba was actually tweeting about the Rangers mid-jump.
=========================
Now you’re stealing my material.
Shut him down for a few weeks and workout in the Florida sun……..Wow, mob mentality, such venom…..Yanks better not lose the Tampa Series…..Been here since mid 2007 and I have never seen so much misplaced anger and a flood of ridiculous comments…..I admire the great loyalty for Jesus Montero but he’s not Manny nor will he be an Albert or whomever……Martin, Austin and now Pineda are and have been targeted much like a witch hunt…..Hughes still gets it because of Joba, and Granderson received it because of all people Jackson rather than Ian Kennedy…..Hell it was Alex for a long time…..See you guys in Tampa for the opener, maybe by then logic prevails over emotions……Negative vibes
Trisha,
And i respect that…By the way it was my opinion as well….I don’t think the truth is written on stone either…
Let’s just pray that is nothing serious.
“Because they don’t know the pitcher…Some people were saying earlier that he usually makes those kind of gestures….Maybe that’s what they have on their scouting reports.”
The issue wasn’t his grimaces or gestures. The issue was his shoulder. He was dropping his shoulder and his arm angle were all wrong.
Those are things that happen when a pitcher is feeling fatigue/discomfort in his shoulder.
That happens in games all the time when a pitcher tires. But when it happens in the first inning to a pitcher who has lost velocity? If you put the picture together you really need to at least get out to the mound and have a serious discussion.
Marte’s shoulder started off as some casual soreness and he never recovered from it
Bernie’s not Bernie
Luis
You could be right. I think they liked what they saw with his secondary pitches, and believed what he told them about his velocity. The Reality is they should have been watching him like a hawk. Even if it’s nothing serious, it certainly could have been. I would like to hear what they have to say.
Bernier not Bernie’s. Blame this darn iPad.
LoHud has never been dumber….must be close to Opening Day.
Normal soreness.
5-5-3 double play Nice! Anybody see it?
Pineda’s velocity is down significantly, he’s maxing out his effort to hit 91 and his shoulder is sore.
Yep sounds like just normal soreness to me ahahahaah
GreenBeret7 March 30th, 2012 at 10:17 pm
It’s pretty important that Pineda said it was a little sore and not pain.
Mark Feinsand ? @BloggingBombers
Michael Pineda: “When I’m throwing, it’s a little sore. Sometimes every player doesn’t feel 100 percent when they play every day.”
———
Why would you believe anything Pineda has to say about his arm at this point? He’s clearly trying to downplay the issue.
The Yankees need to be extremelty cautious at this point because in the past they have bought Hughes’ lies which led to further injury and hurting the team. The Yankees cannot afford to make the same mistake with Pineda.
“I still don’t understand why Girardi and Rothschild just sat there and let him throw pitches like that when there was clearly something wrong with him dropping his shoulder.”
because the 5th starter competition was apparently riding on him throwing 96 tonight and they wanted to give him an opportunity to do it? I have no idea…..this isn’t great news though….hopefully he just pulled something but the decision is pretty easy now with regards to the rotation and now that’s totally a 2nd thought to getting Pineda healthy and back where he needs to be…..not sure it’s a good idea to frame a 23 year old kid’s ST start like he has to throw harder or he’s going to AAA.
Phew, thank goodness its normal soreness because other than the shoulder scare, there is nothing else at all that’s alarming about his spring.
I can’t believe i had to log in just to tell some of you really need help.First off he has SORENESS not PAIN SORENESS can he get checked out before his career is over id bet a 10 spot its just soreness and needs a little rest BUT everyone has a hard on for Montero HEY HE IS 1-7 with 1 bloop single he is raking.
People love to jump in and say i was against this trade.BUT if he was doing great nobody would admit they did not want him.
But the panic over Soreness has got out of control.I do not care where it is he said it was sore NOT PAIN.
The Kid could miss the whole season and the yankess get the better end of the trade.Who is to say Montero does not get hurt or continues to hit 1-1 lets see he is hitting a buck something
BUT oh wait it is just 2 games so it is ok Montero is sucking for 2 games.Pineada has only pitched in ST and people are going nuts.He is Sore let them check him out before you bury him.
The real tough break for Pineda is that he won’t get to pay homage to the Kei Igawa statue in downtown Scranton when he goes to AAA.
“Cashman completely schooled Zduriencik on that trade. You don’t get a DH prospect for a #2 starter All-Star rookie pitcher under club control for the next six years.”
From the Mariners blog.
Just helps to keep in mind that both sides are worried. Such is the nature of trades involving young players. Not a whole lot anyone can do except move forward.
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 10:05 pm
J Al, I think the sad reality is that they had no intentions of working Montero into their plans. It sure looks that way. How many times did people here say that they thought Montero was going to be used as a trade chip? He had already been put forward in one trade, maybe that was the handwriting on the wall.
//
See, trish, here’s my thinking on this. If I’m the owners, and my GM and manager come and tell me they can’t work a guy with 1. OPS potential into their lineup, I begin my search for a new management team.
Send him to Andrews to get it checked out then stash him in AA and hope that his velocity comes back. If it doesn’t, better start hoping Campos turns into something because that trade is looking awfully bad.
BUT if he was doing great nobody would admit they did not want him.
–
heh. Really? have you been paying attention? Pineda is a good prospect, but many here have admitted they did not want him at the price paid.
Patrick March 30th, 2012 at 10:26 pm
Pineda’s velocity is down significantly, he’s maxing out his effort to hit 91 and his shoulder is sore.
Umm to hit 94 he hit 94 a few times tonight get it right ok
Eeyores all, FCS.
Pat M,
With all due respect…And i respect you a great deal….The comments i’ve made are related to the trade it self, i am not over-hyping Montero, quite the contrary i have taking him out of the equation. The trade was a bad one. I am on record saying that i think Pineda is going to be especial, so i haven’t bash him. And most of the posters, as far as i have read, haven’t said anything ill about him.
“Cashman completely schooled Zduriencik on that trade. You don’t get a DH prospect for a #2 starter All-Star rookie pitcher under club control for the next six years.”
–
Technically Montero had 6 years of control, Pineda only had 5.
Marte’s shoulder started off as some casual soreness and he never recovered from it.
————————
Marte already had 10 more years of pitching wear and tear.
Sounds like some bloggers are jumping up and down in their playpens with glee.
The real tough break for Pineda is that he won’t get to pay homage to the Kei Igawa statue in downtown Scranton when he goes to AAA.
—
The AAA Yankees no longer have a home ballpark so it’s likely Pineda would be sent to AA.
Patrick March 30th, 2012 at 10:29 pm
Send him to Andrews to get it checked out then stash him in AA and hope that his velocity comes back. If it doesn’t, better start hoping Campos turns into something because that trade is looking awfully bad.
Montero is 1-7 they better send him to AA huh
Just finished watching a hockey game…anything happen tonight?
Let’s not blow this thing out of proportion…..until we get the MRI results.
Umm to hit 94 he hit 94 a few times tonight get it right ok
—
Was sitting 95-98 last year. Now puts in max effort to hit 94. Sweet
Montero is 1-7 they better send him to AA huh
—
Montero’s bat speed isn’t markedly slower and he isn’t complaining of shoulder soreness.
Pineda has no pain.
LOL, sure.
yeah, normal soreness makes a guy throw 5 MPH below his normal average velocity. It is considered a victory when he hits 94 once or twice a game, last year he averaged 95 and could hit 98,99.
The problem is Cashman, Joe, and Larry put such importance on a meaningless competition and kept harping on the velocity issue that Pineda probably forced himself out there. No one wants to go to AAA.
How about Wise-out of options?
Not sure if Wade stays on this team this year, particularly with the starting rotation shuffles.
atrick March 30th, 2012 at 10:31 pm
Umm to hit 94 he hit 94 a few times tonight get it right ok
But you said he had to max effort to hit 91.
Did you watch Montero? i did he looked lost send him to AA he moght be a 1/2 year wonder HUH
Did nothing this spring and now he is 1-7 to start the season he is raking it up
“If it doesn’t, better start hoping Campos turns into something because that trade is looking awfully bad.”
I didn’t like the trade in general and all the reasons are well documented by now….but it’s still way too early to make a judgement on it in reality. Pineda could go to the minors….get his velocity back and and be a huge factor in the 2nd half….we just don’t know….but this isn’t the first case this sort of problem for 2nd year starters.
J Al – we’ll agree to disagree. It really doesn’t matter that you predicted that Hughes would come back. So did I. Big deal. The Yankees have to be the ones to be confident about it.
You seem to believe there are guys down below who are ready. Maybe the Yankees don’t agree.
They didn’t know Pettitte was coming back. They didn’t want Darvish.
It’s dangerous to ever be at a point where you think you know more than the organization. As Ron Washington said when he talked about his Game 6 WS decision to take Feliz out and put Oliver in, “I will have people telling me I should have left Neftali [Feliz] in the game after the ninth inning, but they don’t know what I know about that ni”ht. ”
I think that pretty much sums up an organization’s decision-making as opposed to fans thinking they have better answers. Fans just don’t know what the organization knows about “that night” – that night being any time a decision is made.
Really entertaining game tonight, if anybody cares.
EA March 30th, 2012 at 10:32 pm
yeah, normal soreness makes a guy throw 5 MPH below his normal average velocity. It is considered a victory when he hits 94 once or twice a game, last year he averaged 95 and could hit 98,99.
The problem is Cashman, Joe, and Larry put such importance on a meaningless competition and kept harping on the velocity issue that Pineda probably forced himself out there. No one wants to go to AAA.
Umm get it right the Media harped on his speed not Joe or cash
LGY…..Enjoy the Ritter bars, they’re for you…..We’re still on for Wells / Swish ??? One bar for each of the 5 categories ???
Remember when Damaso Marte and Pedro Feliciano just had a little “soreness”?
He is having a MRI in the morning anyone want to bet a 10 spot it comes back ok just soreness?
A real 10 spot not a waaaaah go away put up or shut up.
Pat
Why are the Ritters for me? It looks almost definite you are going to win the bet.
“The AAA Yankees no longer have a home ballpark…’
That was the joke.
“…so it’s likely Pineda would be sent to AA.”
Same difference, there’s no Igawa statue in downtown Trenton. But the upside is that Pineda would have a good shot at getting one of this Robinson Cano giveaway gnomes.
You seem very down on Pineda right now, Patrick. How many games do you think he’ll end up winning for the Yanks this season?
“Remember when Damaso Marte and Pedro Feliciano just had a little “soreness”?”
they were Yankee LOOGYs though….which are doomed from the start.
CB March 30th, 2012 at 10:22 pm
“Because they don’t know the pitcher…Some people were saying earlier that he usually makes those kind of gestures….Maybe that’s what they have on their scouting reports.”
The issue wasn’t his grimaces or gestures. The issue was his shoulder. He was dropping his shoulder and his arm angle were all wrong.
Those are things that happen when a pitcher is feeling fatigue/discomfort in his shoulder.
That happens in games all the time when a pitcher tires. But when it happens in the first inning to a pitcher who has lost velocity? If you put the picture together you really need to at least get out to the mound and have a serious discussion.
============================
You make a very good point. But the question then is….Did he came to camp with the lower arm angle? , Did they instructed him to lower it?, i say this because i have noticed that Wade has altered his arm angle from over the top to three quarters with very poor results. And i haven’t seen Rothschild running to the mound to have a talk to either of them. You did notice it, why wouldn’t they?. Excuse me for making so many questions.
Those against the trade are not bashing Pineda; we have rooted for, sympathize with and support the kid; try to differentiate between us and the trolls. Thanks.
If pineda hits the dl,i think that is considered ml service time,and not counted as credit for time sent down for the extra year of control.
So if he is in AA for a month,he would have to spend another 20 days or so in AA for the extra year of control.
Anybody???
Let’s put this into perspective. We essentially traded a super AAA prospect with an unproven long term track record for a super AAA/rookie prospect with an unproven track record. Neither was going to be the most important factor in the Yanks chances of winning the Series this year.
As long as this is not a significant injury, it’s not a big deal.
I personally think that the Kuroda and Andy’s progress are the two most important factors for the team this to go over the top this year. A rod, too. Pineda is a long term project, assuming no carrier threatening injury.
Everyone back off the ledge.
@YankeesWFAN: Defeating the Damaged Goods Theory–Pineda’s pre-trade physical did include a shoulder MRI.
There are separate issue going on here.
Some are equating every move Pineda and Montero make with whether it was a good or bad trade.
Some are just commenting on Pineda because we are concerned about our new young Yankee stud pitcher. There have been some alarming signs , that seemed to have been ignored.
Personally I think now is the time to talk about Pineda.
What Montero does (or will do in the future) or does not do ( or could never achieve in the future) is irrelevant and silly to keep bringing up.
There will be plenty of time for those who want to throw Montero up in the face of the naysayers.
ok I couldn’t resist.
Look at this point what’s going on with Pineda has nothing to do with the trade or Montero.
This kid didn’t ask to be traded to the Yanks. He in no way bears any responsibility or accoutability for this.
All he’s trying to do is make the team. I’m sure at the end of last season he would never have guessed that would have ever even been in question to him.
What’s going on is concerning but there’s absolutely no reason to write him off. The overwhelming probability is that he’ll be fine.
Pineda is a truly special talent. He’s that good. He’s a thrilling talent. And the part his game that needed refinement – that change – was coming along nicely this spring.
We have to hope for the best for him as he’s a significant piece of the Yankees future.
I can see the argument that that is enough pitching, and someone might rather keep Montero, however I can also see the argument that there are questions about that pitching in general after CC (before anyone threw a pitch).
///
Jacksquat, I go to war with that staff, but have no problem with them trying to “upgrade” (other than they always sell their own guys short). But choose some other bait: this is the crux of this: the price they paid.
But you said he had to max effort to hit 91.
Did you watch Montero? i did he looked lost send him to AA he moght be a 1/2 year wonder HUH
Did nothing this spring and now he is 1-7 to start the season he is raking it up
—
Yes I said that because it’s true. Did you watch him pitch tonight? He hit 94 like 2 times, everything else was 90-91. Last year he was effortless sitting 95+, touching 98. That’s a huge dip in velocity and it’s now the end of spring training and he’s consciously TRYING to throw harder. And his shoulder hurts, wow big shocker there. There are no more excuses, he is injured 100%.
Yes I watched Montero this spring and in the first two games, he’s fine. This is why you don’t trade a high impact hitter for a pitching prospect, so many things can go wrong at any time.
I’m more annoyed that randy’s ego is going to be even bigger than it was before.
GB, hope all is well. Who would you rather keep, and why:
Dickerson or Maxwell?
Maxwell or Almonte?
My worst-case “Sugar” scenario is approaching reality.
Let’s just hope he avoids all the homely white women that the NY-Penn league has to offer.
Yankee Trader March 30th, 2012 at 10:32 pm
How about Wise-out of options?
————————————————————————————————————————-
He signed a minor league contract.
Pineda will be fine,i hope.
The same thing happened here with hughes last year.
Hughes wen’t from an ace,to his career being over,back now to the best starter in st.
People here change their minds,and opinions by the pitch,or ab.
It is really insane.
Nick in SF March 30th, 2012 at 10:37 pm
“The AAA Yankees no longer have a home ballpark…’
That was the joke.
“…so it’s likely Pineda would be sent to AA.”
///
Probably Tampa.
YF, you have been entirely fair about this from the beginning. As soon as the trade was made, you were clear about feeling that you could get at least some equilibrium if the Yanks went after a big bat. You did not spend all of your time trashing the trade and second guessing it, at least not that I remember.
There were a lot of people on this forum who were against the trade, or who certainly were less than happy about it, but who moved forward and just hoped for the best. And then there were some who have never given it a moment to breathe. There have certainly been some who have bashed Pineda and who still haven’t stopped.
I don’t think there are just two camps here, those who were for the trade and those who were against it. There are some who remain totally polarized – witness some of tonight’s posts.
You seem very down on Pineda right now, Patrick. How many games do you think he’ll end up winning for the Yanks this season?
—
I thought the joke was that Kei Igawa has a statue in Scranton.
I would put the over/under on Pineda wins at 5 right now. All signs point to this being more than just regular soreness, I would be surprised to see Pineda pitch in a major league game before June. And by then our rotation could be full.
BryanHoch Cesar Cabral being sent for x rays and MRI. Left elbow pain. He’s in a sling. 9 seconds ago
well another question answered I guess
BryanHoch Cesar Cabral being sent for x rays and MRI. Left elbow pain. He’s in a sling.
“But the question then is….Did he came to camp with the lower arm angle? ”
Luis,
What we saw with his shoulder and arm angle tonight were new, fortunately.
He’s had mechanical problems all spring – but that’s largely been his front side opening too early.
That’s not really a concern for his throwing shoulder (though poor front side mechanics can cause throw shoulder problems).
What we didn’t see before was his shoulder dropping like we did tonight. Not to this degree.
And on the hole that’s a good thing – he looked different tonight so hopefully this is something relatively short lived and new.
I’m more annoyed that randy’s ego is going to be even bigger than it was before.
///
Really??
I’m more enraged that Montero is hitting in the middle of somebody else’s order than ours.
RIP Cesar Cabral. Curse of the LOOGY strikes again.
My point is that neither Montero nor Pineda are MLB proven commodities. Yet everyone acts as if we traded Babe Ruth for Cy Young. They are a couple of kids…..the trade is impossible to critique at this point.
aSaint007 March 30th, 2012 at 10:40 pm
GB, hope all is well. Who would you rather keep, and why:
Dickerson or Maxwell?
Maxwell or Almonte?
————————————————————————————————————————-
Maxwell. Dickerson is on a minor league deal and not on the 40 man roster. Maxwell is. Almonte is a AA player and still young at 23.
“What’s going on is concerning but there’s absolutely no reason to write him off. The overwhelming probability is that he’ll be fine.
Pineda is a truly special talent. He’s that good. He’s a thrilling talent. And the part his game that needed refinement – that change – was coming along nicely this spring.
We have to hope for the best for him as he’s a significant piece of the Yankees future.”
Beautifully stated. That says it all IMO.
ok I couldn’t resist.
===========================
Tar,
LMAO!
MarcCarig Cash: “This had been a real bad day.” about 1 minute ago · reply · retweet · favorite
“I thought the joke was that Kei Igawa has a statue in Scranton.”
Sorry, you’re right, the AAA Yanks not having a home park was part of the setup, not the joke.
“I would put the over/under on Pineda wins at 5 right now.”
Tell you what, let’s make it 5.5 games so there’s no tie and I’ll take the over, you take the under. Do we have a bet? You deserve another chance to win something back from me.
? @BloggingBombers
Pineda said he was trying to throw harder tonight … very well could have been what made his shoulder sore.
Hold up. Cabral AND Pineda? Jack, you cad!
Guess Rapada won the job.
“RIP Cesar Cabral. Curse of the LOOGY strikes again.”
Rapada should jump ship while he can still throw a baseball
Prufrock……It’s admirable that you such a high regard to the Yanks farmhands, however other organizations don’t quite value them quite like you and many here…..That’s the reality of things
There have certainly been some who have bashed Pineda and who still haven’t stopped.
_____
Trisha, barely anyone from the pro-Montero side of the trade who is a regular on here has bashed Pineda. I don’t like the conflation of disliking the trade with bashing Pineda or even not thinking Pineda could be a very good pitcher for us. In fact, I think most of the people who were against the trade have a very strong grasp of how good Pineda can be.
WOO HOO! YANKEES WIN!
Cool game.
Goodnight all.
The media will blow everything out of proportion, while waiting on word from the physicians.
Just last week they had Joba nearly bleeding to death.
Hopefully, a little rest and mechanical tweaking will resolve his issues.
Now Cabral getting an MRI on elbow-perfect time to put him on waivers and gamble he gets thru without being picked up, so he can stay with Yankees.
Thx GB.
MarcCarig Cash calling Pineda’s shoulder “tight.” 2 minutes ago ·
Tell you what, let’s make it 5.5 games so there’s no tie and I’ll take the over, you take the under. Do we have a bet? You deserve another chance to win something back from me.
—
Stakes? I say $10
YF – there are people who are Lohud regulars who have been whining about the trade all night. (And I don’t mean J Al). And they have also trashed Pineda in the process.
I’m really tired of hearing it to tell you the truth. Grow up and move on.
I think that pretty much sums up an organization’s decision-making as opposed to fans thinking they have better answers. Fans just don’t know what the organization knows about “that night” – that night being any time a decision is made.
////
Trisha,
Very hard to move the needle on discussion if the record’s just always going to get stuck on “the organization knows best.” I get that they make the decisions, and I’m a humble little fan. If you think that disqualifies future exchanges of opinion between us on the team’s moves, I will understand.
“Cesar Cabral being sent for x rays and MRI. Left elbow pain. He’s in a sling. 9 seconds ago”
This is really too bad. I was really hoping and expecting them to take a chance on Cabral.
I wonder though if this is also a way for them to keep him? I don’t see why they can’t put him on the 25 man and then shift him to the DL as needed?
Players on the DL accumulate ML service time so I don’t see why the yanks would lose him.
$10 is fine if that’s what you want.
Lately the trend in LoHud wagers has been to bet Ritter Sport Chocolate bars, but either way is fine with me.
This could be the opportunity the Yankees were looking for to get Cabral through waivers so they can sign him to a minor league contract
“Goodnight all.
The media will blow everything out of proportion, while waiting on word from the physicians.
Just last week they had Joba nearly bleeding to death.”
Uh, second only to this forum. The doctors are always in force here…
Lately the trend in LoHud wagers has been to bet Ritter Sport Chocolate bars, but either way is fine with me.
—
Ok that makes it more interesting I suppose, what like a box of them?
Ritter Sports can be ordered and shipped from various websites, they go for around $3 per, give or take. A full box would be pricy. Let’s say 5 Ritter Sports to keep it reasonable. How does that sound?
“Pineda said he was trying to throw harder tonight … very well could have been what made his shoulder sore.”
This was never rocket science. I was really concerned about this start. Here’s a kid struggling with velocity who has basically been told that if he doesn’t show more heat he’s going to the minors.
What else is he going to try to do other than muscle it up and do what’ he thins is needed to produce that velocity even if his body isn’t up to it?
This is why I’m really puzzled as to why Girardi and Rotchschild didn’t jump out of the dugout immediately. It’s as if they didn’t think through the context and incentives here much at all.
Trish,
Are you referring to me? ….I certain hope not, because there hasn’t been a moment that i haven’t rooted for the kid to succeed
Ritter Sports can be ordered and shipped from various websites, they go for around $3 per, give or take. A full box would be pricy. Let’s say 5 Ritter Sports to keep it reasonable. How does that sound?
—
Done. I am betting that Pineda will win less than 5.5 games in the 2012 regular season, you are betting Pineda will win more than 5.5 games in the 2012 regular season. The loser buys the winner 5 Ritter sports bars.
Pat M. March 30th, 2012 at 10:48 pm
Prufrock……It’s admirable that you such a high regard to the Yanks farmhands, however other organizations don’t quite value them quite like you and many here…..That’s the reality of things
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Depends on which farmhand you’re talking about. I’m not sure what your context is, but I’m going to assume you’re suggesting that anything other than Montero would not have fetched a high-end starter.
“Very hard to move the needle on discussion if the record’s just always going to get stuck on “the organization knows best.” I get that they make the decisions, and I’m a humble little fan. If you think that disqualifies future exchanges of opinion between us on the team’s moves, I will understand.”
I just don’t pay attention to any fan vehemence about moves being made since I know the organization is loaded with information that the average fan absolutely could not know. It’s one thing for fans to opine or make known their wish list. It’s quite another for fans to display total arrogance in putting themselves in the place of the organization and pretending they actually know better.
JMO
Sounds good, and no provisions for either of us to get out of the bet. If Pineda’s MRI comes back bad and he gets surgery and is out of the season, tough break for me, you win. If he’s fine and they put him in the rotation and he has six wins by the middle of May, tough break for you.
“Are you referring to me? ….I certain hope not, because there hasn’t been a moment that i haven’t rooted for the kid to succeed”
luis – never. If you read back through the posts you will be able to see those people who are still calling the trade a bust and taking shots at Pineda at the same time. Some of those are regulars on this forum, even if you haven’t see them around in a while.
I just don’t pay attention to any fan vehemence about moves being made since I know the organization is loaded with information that the average fan absolutely could not know. It’s one thing for fans to opine or make known their wish list. It’s quite another for fans to display total arrogance in putting themselves in the place of the organization and pretending they actually know better.
JMO
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Understandable opinion but is it wrong for any fan to have an opinion that differs from the team? It sounds like that is what you are saying, the team knows more and thus fans shouldn’t question them. Yes, teams have access to more information but don’t discount intelligent fan analysis.
“Grow up and move on.”
I’m with YF on this. Maybe you should address the posters who are annoying you. I feel like because I have concern over Pineda loss of velocity, I am trashing him. That’s not what I am doing at all. I have thought there is a physical part to this issue for a couple of games now. And I expressed that.
Sounds good, and no provisions for either of us to get out of the bet. If Pineda’s MRI comes back bad and he gets surgery and is out of the season, tough break for me, you win. If he’s fine and they put him in the rotation and he has six wins by the middle of May, tough break for you.
—
Agreed.
I’m glad we have another bet going, I’m going to Atlantic City tomorrow I’ll let you know how my luck goes – maybe it will be an omen to how this bet will turn out
But who of the pro-keeping Montero regulars has been bashing Pineda here tonight? Not Pruf, not me, not Luis, not JF, not Randy, not Tar, not Luis, not Blake, not LGY, not CB, who? Why not just bathe in the positive energy of those who wish him well…and ignore the trolls.
I’m glad we have another bet going too. You always pay up!
trisha – true pinstriped blue March 30th, 2012 at 10:59 pm
“Are you referring to me? ….I certain hope not, because there hasn’t been a moment that i haven’t rooted for the kid to succeed”
luis – never. If you read back through the posts you will be able to see those people who are still calling the trade a bust and taking shots at Pineda at the same time. Some of those are regulars on this forum, even if you haven’t see them around in a while.
================================
Those are not regulars, just ignore them.
But who of the pro-keeping Montero regulars has been bashing Pineda here tonight?
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I was against trading Montero for Pineda but I wouldn’t call what I’ve been posting tonight “bashing Pineda”
“But who of the pro-keeping Montero regulars has been bashing Pineda here tonight? Not Pruf, not me, not Luis, not JF, not Randy, not Tar, not Luis, not Blake, not LGY, not CB, who?”
I saw that qualifier!
“Understandable opinion but is it wrong for any fan to have an opinion that differs from the team? It sounds like that is what you are saying, the team knows more and thus fans shouldn’t question them. Yes, teams have access to more information but don’t discount intelligent fan analysis.”
Didn’t say that at all. I said that I discount those who are arrogant enough to actually believe they know more than the organization. I questioned the second Vazquez trade but never to the extent that I actually felt I knew more than the Yankees did.
I guess I have a different way of looking at tihngs. I think the fact that one of the Yankees 7 starting pitcher’s is injured validates the organizations decision to aquire so much pitching talent. I expect the Yankees will need at least 10 starting pitchers this year and hopeflly none of them will be named Mitre.
“Why not just bathe in the positive energy of those who wish him well…and ignore the trolls.”
Those who attempted to have any positive energy here tonight were well outnumbered by the naysayers. Always a pleasant experience on the forum.
Face it, tonight was the perfect storm for all those who wanted to say the trade never should have happened.
I’m done with it. Feel free to carry the torch if you want to.
CB March 30th, 2012 at 10:51 pm
“Cesar Cabral being sent for x rays and MRI. Left elbow pain. He’s in a sling. 9 seconds ago”
This is really too bad. I was really hoping and expecting them to take a chance on Cabral.
I wonder though if this is also a way for them to keep him? I don’t see why they can’t put him on the 25 man and then shift him to the DL as needed?
Players on the DL accumulate ML service time so I don’t see why the yanks would lose him.
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If there is any bright side, it does but NYYs time to see if Rapada is for real or a flash. Cabral does on the DL and NYYs keep him there until healthy and then have another 30 dy on Rehab.
Poor Ryan Howard. That was just one of the worst things you could ever see.
“If there is any bright side, it does but NYYs time to see if Rapada is for real or a flash. Cabral does on the DL and NYYs keep him there until healthy and then have another 30 dy on Rehab.”
I think we know wha Rapada is from his history. He is lights out against lefties but he get lit up against righties a true LOOGY who makes it very difficult for the manager when the opponent can pinch hit for the lefty but is still quite valuable in many situations.