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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Still plenty of questions surrounding Pineda’s shoulder, velocity and performance

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 31, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Now that they have the MRI results, the Yankees know what they’re dealing with. But that doesn’t mean they have all of the answers. What caused Michael Pineda’s injury, and what effect has it had on his pitching? Were there warning signs along the way, or was this completely unpredictable? Truth be told, there are a lot of variables in this situation, and there weren’t many definitive answers beyond the diagnosis.

Did the injury cause the velocity dip?
“There was always that curiosity, why isn’t it going up higher?” Joe Girardi said. “And as you’re looking for answers, we’re looking, too, trying to figure out why isn’t the velocity where it was last year? Is it the innings? Is he just not ready to turn it loose? What is it? None of us are ever really going to know, but right now, he’s shut down and we’ll get him back as soon as we can.”

Did trying to generate velocity lead to the injury?
“I think it’s possible,” Girardi said. “I think you can look at a lot of guys and nothing’s ever going to come back perfect if you do an MRI. It could just be the six and a half weeks accumulation of pitching and getting in shape, getting your arm in shape. That’s why we try not to rush guys. It could be (trying to generate velocity). It could be from him flying open a little bit. I know we talked about that yesterday. Who knows? It’s just normal workload that you get it.”

Did Phil Hughes’ troubles last year raise concerns about Pineda?
“I didn’t necessarily feel that way,” Girardi said. “Looking at Phil’s situation and looking at this I didn’t feel there was going to be a correlation, I didn’t. People’s bodies always respond different. Everyone’s different. I don’t think you can put, you know, any two human bodies in the same, you know, this is the reason it happened. Everyone is different.”

Do you buy into an innings jump leading to something like this?
“I do,” Girardi said. “I think there is something to it. I think you have to be careful. You have to protect players as they are maturing physically and making innings jumps, because a lot of time it’s the wear and tear over time that really hits you. If you ran a mile, mile, mile and then you went out and ran a marathon, you’re probably not going to feel the same as if you ran a mile. So you try to gradually increase just like you would with any activity.”

The injury could be the product of workload, or altered mechanics, or it could be normal wear and tear. The diminished velocity could be a byproduct of the soreness, a cause of the soreness, or it could a coinciding issue with no cause-effect relationship. The only thing to do now and is give Pineda time to heal and search for answers then.

Associated Press photo

 
 

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239 Responses to “Still plenty of questions surrounding Pineda’s shoulder, velocity and performance”

  1. Carlos March 31st, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    Obvious he didn’t work out at all in the offseason. DL him. Put him on a rehab assignment. He’ll bounce back.

  2. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    All I’ll say is that thank heavens there was no structural damage…..no thanks to Joe and his ” this is a big game” spiel

  3. yankeefeminista March 31st, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    I was about to post the same; thank God Pineda was removed before it got any worse.

  4. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    So who pitches a game for the Yankees first, Pineda or Pettitte?

  5. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    “Cashman screwed up here. He had Kuroda in the bag, Andy nibbling at the line, Noesi ready to step in and Yu there for the taking and he traded Piazza instead.”

    I continue to be amazed by the seeming lack of understanding witnessed by this line of thinking.

    1. Cashman did NOT have Pettitte nibbling. He had no idea that Andy continued to work out. Cashman asked Andy for an answer in December. Andy said he wasn’t ready to commit. That’s when Cashman went out and made his trades. Cashman then told Pettitte to close it down. He had no idea that Pettitte was still working out. In Cashman’s mind Pettitte was off the radar.

    2. The Yankees apparently weren’t willing to spend the farm (so to speak) on Darvish. Perhaps they felt they had been burned before and saw that the Sux were also burned and they weren’t willing to commit that kind of money.

    3. The Yankees also apparently weren’t committed to Montero. Whether fans think they should have been has no relevance to reality. They weren’t committing to him as their catcher and they weren’t tying up their DH position. That was an organizational decision.

    That fans think Cashman screwed up doesn’t mean that Cashman screwed up. You can talk about it until you are blue in the face, but if they had decided that Montero was a trade chip, no amount of scenarios fans can dream up will change that.

    I’ll take the position that Cashman did not screw up at all. Their organizational structure was not going to include a permanent DH (for obvious reasons) nor a catcher who was weak on defense when they had a stronger defensive catcher in the wings. (Romine). Those are the realities.

    It’s not our money, it’s their money. And if they made choices not to lay out a small fortune bidding on Darvish so that they could keep their payroll to an amount they decided on, that’s certainly their right.

    It doesn’t mean fans have to like it. But they don’t exist to cater to the whims of their fans when those whims don’t fit into what they envision as their structure.

    Again, it appears tht Montero was NOT in their long-term plans. Pineda is the name that ended up being on the end of them carrying out their plans.

  6. luis March 31st, 2012 at 8:17 pm

    Very good post Chad….Good questions as well….

    Betsy,

    I wouldn’t rush to judgement, i know it wasn’t the smart thing to say, but probably he was going down anyway because of the Verducci effect. What i am puzzled about is how inexact this pitching science is. Last night i was so mad, i thought that how could they have missed the signs?, but today i feel that they could have been easily missed, especially if Pineda is hiding it as all pitchers i know would.

    Thankfully, it’s only tendinitis. Which means that he will be shotdown for a while. It creates an opportunity for him to continue to develop the CU without the spotlight. They have to go slow on this one, if it takes the whole season, so be it. I rather see him next season healthy and ready, than this season with diminished stuff.

  7. luis March 31st, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    So who pitches a game for the Yankees first, Pineda or Pettitte?

    ==========================

    Pettitte

  8. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 8:21 pm

    Well, I think one thing they need to do, in order to understand Pineda going forward, is to try and get from him when exactly he started feeling soreness, and if there was any particular thing in his opinion that was worrisome for him, or affecting him, that he didn’t want to talk about. I mean, now that it’s done, try and go and back figure it out. And maybe that helps the rehab process.

    But then, really, you just have to move forward and proceed with caution and insist on honesty from the player about his condition. Because these athletes push themselves, and because many seem to have developed a high threshold for what we’d call pain, I guess any and every soreness has to be accounted for.

    ***

    But going backward in history, did second year pitchers always have these set-backs which were more than just the usual adjustment that the league makes when facing them? There is definitely something going on in the development of pitchers that isn’t restricted to the NY Yankees, that can be improved.

    Or, another question, are there any indicators that might show that pitcher A, under the same conditions as pitcher B, might be more or less susceptible to “second year syndrome” (a/k/a “workload increase under pressure syndrome”)?

  9. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:21 pm

    I remember exactly where I was when I heard the news report that Pitino had accepted the job with the Knicks and was leaving PC. One week earlier I heard the interview where Pitino said he was NOT interviewing for other jobs, contrary to rumors that were swirling, and that he was committed to Providence College and that’s where he would be coaching.

    HEY PITINO, YOU JERK. PC SAYS HI!!!

    :)

    I’m sure Pitino is fine with this loss since in his pregame interview he said this was “just another game” and it didn’t matter at all that his former school and state rival was the opponent.

  10. J. Alfred Prufrock March 31st, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    yankeefeminista March 31st, 2012 at 8:06 pm
    Pruf, that’d be nice. We’ve had Pettitte, Jeter, Hughes the last couple of years. It beats what we have in Trenton right now. I will be most interested in Marshall, Zoilo. Hopefully, we get JR mid-season. But SWB @LHV and SI will be more my speed this year because of the personnel
    ///

    Yea, we have a small window for Ravel and DePaula in SI. Camarena is one I’ll make that trip for, too. Great backdrop, with the ferry drifting in and of the harbor.

  11. mick March 31st, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    Congrats to Pat M for that 1/2 point.

  12. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    Do you buy into an innings jump leading to something like this?

    “I do,” Girardi said. “I think there is something to it. I think you have to be careful. You have to protect players as they are maturing physically and making innings jumps, because a lot of time it’s the wear and tear over time that really hits you. If you ran a mile, mile, mile and then you went out and ran a marathon, you’re probably not going to feel the same as if you ran a mile. So you try to gradually increase just like you would with any activity.”

    **************

    Again, not rocket science. We’ve seen the result of putting too many innings on pitchers who were not ready.

    Sometimes the most obvious ends up being the answer. In fact, oftentimes it does.

    So KISS – keep it simple, sportfans.

  13. Ghost of Steinbrenner March 31st, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    I am not usually pessimistic but I feel the Yanks will never see the Pineda of the first half of 2011.

  14. luis March 31st, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    I do understand your position and i understand that Montero was a trade chip. But they needed more on the offensive side than on the pitching side, regardless of Pettitte. So if you trade Montero, trade him for a bat who can actually play a position if you think that he can’t do it.

    Again, it’s a matter of perception. On what premises they used in the decision process and those used by the people that didn’t agree on the trade (including me). What i am trying to say is that it depends on how you look at it. Even though i think that the thought process and the premises used by the FO to make the decision were flawed, form their stand point it was the right choice. So both sides could be wrong or right depending on how you look at it, there is no absolute truth.

  15. mick March 31st, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    so pitino “lied” about his future plans and is now scorned for life?

  16. luis March 31st, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    Later guys

  17. rm March 31st, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    Trisha,

  18. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:32 pm

    luis, kudos to you for always keeping an open mind. One of the smartest things to do here is to not get caught up in the lohud freneticism whenever something negative happens with the Yankees. More often than not, posters go to the extremes in deciding what they believe to be the reasons/outcomes, and more often than not, they’re wrong.

  19. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:32 pm

    rm?

  20. rm March 31st, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Sorry about the missfire
    Trisha,
    Good Post. But I think many posters here will still refuse to accept reality.

  21. mick March 31st, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Don’t we all see Hal wants to win it all with a smaller payroll?
    What will the pundits say when that happens.

  22. J. Alfred Prufrock March 31st, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    “Cashman screwed up here. He had Kuroda in the bag, Andy nibbling at the line, Noesi ready to step in and Yu there for the taking and he traded Piazza instead.”
    ////

    Whoever wrote this: yup. ’bout sums it up.

  23. mick March 31st, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    They were getting rid of Montero.
    This was the best they could get.

  24. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    “Sorry about the missfire
    Trisha,
    Good Post. But I think many posters here will still refuse to accept reality.”

    rm, as we speak.

    ;)

  25. mick March 31st, 2012 at 8:37 pm

    Bobby Bacchala at the Garden.

  26. mick March 31st, 2012 at 8:38 pm

    Melo chucked a ball at a ref?

  27. rm March 31st, 2012 at 8:38 pm

    Trisha, Hopefully they will get over it when the yankees are up by 20 games in June.

  28. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    “They were getting rid of Montero.”

    I absolutely believe that to be the case. There is no logical scenario that anyone has been able to point out that makes sense in terms of the reality of who the Yankees are. So what fans have to deal with is the fact that the Yankees did not have Montero in their plans. The only relevance Pineda has is that he was part of the trade that allowed the Yankees to move Montero. It’s not about whether the Yankees missed the boat by giving up great offense. They had already put Montero out there as trade bait earlier. I think what fans have to reckon with, and it’s a difficult reckoning, is that the Yankees did not value Montero the way some fans did.

  29. luis March 31st, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    Trish,

    For the record: The fact that i acknowledge that Montero was a trade chip, doesn’t mean that i think that he should have been regarded as such. In fact, i think he is going to catch and he is going to rake. But that’s beyond the point now.

  30. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    “Trisha, Hopefully they will get over it when the yankees are up by 20 games in June.”

    I’m thinking so, rm. Truly.

  31. m March 31st, 2012 at 8:41 pm

    I think that both Hughes and Pineda were dealing with the Verducci effect. And when they picked up the load in spring training and tried to generate velocity, they developed shoulder tendinitis.

    The good news is Hughes has been resurrected from the dead, and Pineda has no structural damage.

    Rest and rehab. And hope that he regains done if he velocity. I’m not expecting him to be throwing bullets put there. I just hope that his arm bounces back the way Hughes (fingers crossed) had.

  32. David in Cal March 31st, 2012 at 8:43 pm

    Even if Montero wasn’t in the Yanks’ long term plans, they had no need to trade him now. He could have been a DH/backup catcher this year and been traded later. Waiting would have given the Yanks a better idea of whether Montero could learn to catch well enough to ever be a regular catcher. In fact, if Montero turned into an adequate catcher and/or if he kept hitting like he did last September, his trade value would have zoomed up.

  33. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    I don’t see Kuroda as being in the bag. It happened to shake out at the same time the Pineda deal was consummated, but I don’t think Kuroda was a sure thing. Andy certainly was NOT a sure thing, as Trisha outlined above (so I won’t regurgitate it). There was no way on this green earth that the Yankees were going to take a financial risk on Darvish considering both the parameters of the new CBA AND considering the decided lack of return on investment on Igawa paired with Matsuzaka not quite meeting expectations in Boston.

    It’s easy to sit here now and say, well, this this this and this would have been enough.

    I seem to remember reading posts pre-January 13th crying about CC and four question marks, and that included Noesi, who some were worried that he didn’t have enough innings in 2011 and that could be problematic going into 2012.

    I get the disappointment of the trade, but you cannot say that the Yankees had a slam dunk pitching staff including the amount of depth they now have with surety.

    But ironically, they will start the season with what they had plus Kuroda, minus Noesi. And a little more depth because of Pettitte. And Hughes has erased question marks. And Nova still carries some (he’s had an interesting spring – really good innings and some clunkers) question marks. How long will Garcia be good? He could tire early (and then Andy will hopefully, fresh and effective, smoothly replace him).

    And the Pineda deal was made as much for the future as it was for now. Stuff happens.

  34. m March 31st, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    *regains some of his velocity.

  35. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    luis, I absolutely understand that. When David Wells was traded for Roger Clemens, I felt the same way you do now. There is no way I thought the Yankees should have done that. I thought they were out of their minds, I saw it as the organization catering to Torre’s dark side, and I was embarrassed that the Yankees would go out and get a known headhunter.

    But they ignored my thinking.

    :)

    By the way, I have never wavered from believing that Montero is going to rake. He certainly made end up catching but catching for Seattle and catching for the Yankees are two different animals. The Yankees had just gotten over the remnants of an offensive catcher who could no longer play adequate defense. It appears they weren’t signing up for that again.

    Just saying what appears to be obvious. I didn’t invent the scenario.

  36. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    “Again, not rocket science. We’ve seen the result of putting too many innings on pitchers who were not ready.”

    I have to ask what that says about Cashman’s descion in paying top price for a pitcher who was a prime candidate for the Verducci effect. Did this not factor in his descion?

  37. randy l. March 31st, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    “The pitching motion is unnatural to the human bodies ”

    oh really.

    http://williamcalvin.com/bk2/bk2ch4.htm

  38. yankeefeminista March 31st, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Like I said when the new CBA was announced, Cashman now gets to pretend he is Andrew Friedman. Good luck with that.

  39. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Maybe it was a factor?

    Is the “Verducci effect” a death sentence or a short-term thing to get through?

    If it’s short-term thing to get through, then I guess they thought the upside would make up for the lost time.

    If it’s a death sentence, then that’s a different situation.

  40. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Decision. I do wonder if the V effect was a factor in Seattle’s decision as well.

  41. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    “Even if Montero wasn’t in the Yanks’ long term plans, they had no need to trade him now. ”

    David the pitching was pretty much in shambles. That’s where they decided to concentrate. Montero was their strongest trading chip.

    Let’s say that they didn’t need pitching and they kept Montero another year and he raked like a fiend. Can you imagine the outrage that would happen then if this is what happened at this point in time?

  42. pat March 31st, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    StoneLarry
    April Fools pre-emptive warning: If any news outlet reports Felix Hernandez has been traded to the Yankees, it’s not true

  43. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    Rewatched Pineda’s outing again. It was the 59th pitch after a walk to Polanco that clearly something was wrong. He was grimacing and rotating his right shoulder while waiting for the next batter.
    Next pitch 79 mph curve, next pitch 88 mph fastball, next one 79 mph slider, next one 88 mph fastball that was hit to A-rod who made an error on the throw.

    This seems to be the first indication that the pitcher thru his body actions seemed to indicate something was wrong. I think his injury occured this inning, and Larry Rothschild came out to check on him after that error, pitch #63.

    By pitch #70, with no pitch above 89mph the next batter after the error, Ruiz rocked him for a double, just after Cone 1st commented that Pineda’s arm strength just wasn’t there, and Pineda was removed.

    I really think that if he was “sore” before, that he aggravated his shoulder this inning, or if he experienced no soreness before last night, that everything occured that inning.

  44. mick March 31st, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    You can’t satisfy everybody.
    If the Yanks didn’t go hard after pitching they’d all be crying now.
    “It’s always something.” Emily Latella

  45. rm March 31st, 2012 at 8:57 pm

    David in Cal, It is hard to say if Montero’s value would ever be higher as a Yankee. He was probably going to be a D H. There is no guarantee that he would not have a cold streak or two they got a comparible value prospect and pitching depth was a much greater need. Just think about it we probably won’t have any Sergio Mitre (or AJ Burnett) types pitching for us this year. That might be worth 10 or more extra wins.

  46. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    Tar-
    Who wins this next game-Ohio State or Kansas? Looks like Louisville just ran out of gas after tying the score against Kentucky.

  47. mick March 31st, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    make that roseann rosanadana

  48. yankeefeminista March 31st, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    # Tar March 31st, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Decision. I do wonder if the V effect was a factor in Seattle’s decision as well.
    _____
    It could have been, considering they have kid pitchers in waiting who may actually be able to pitch more innings in 2012 than Pineda will. Ditto, Noesi. We shall see.

  49. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 9:01 pm

    Villa-

    Is the Verducci effect when you make the cover of SI, and afterward your career spirals downhill?

  50. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 9:06 pm

    Did I just read that The NY Yankees traded Mike Piazza ???? Really !!! Now he was a pure hitter who didn’t whiff much for a power hitter….I’m not sure if he ever k’d more than 90 times and was a .300 plus hitter…..Yeah, The NY Yankees traded that guy……

  51. Bronx Jeers March 31st, 2012 at 9:07 pm

    I don’t think you can put, you know, any two human bodies in the same, you know, this is the reason it happened.

    ————–

    Well said !

  52. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    Trader……..Root for Kansas + 2….By the way, good report I remember that inning well ….

  53. Duh Innings March 31st, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    trisha – true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 8:32 pm

    luis, kudos to you for always keeping an open mind. One of the smartest things to do here is to not get caught up in the lohud freneticism whenever something negative happens with the Yankees. More often than not, posters go to the extremes in deciding what they believe to be the reasons/outcomes, and more often than not, they’re wrong.

    ———————————————————————————————-

    And you’re always right and levelheaded? Put down your pinstriped pom-poms to remove your pinstriped-lensed glasses, after you get off your high horse. Who died and made you the voice of reason on here? Your username suits you because you’re Ms.Cashman Can Do No Wrong and I’m sick of it and your condescension.

    Cashman signed Pettitte because he knew something was wrong with Pineda and didn’t tell anyone until Pineda was absolutely certain to be DLed, otherwise why sign Pettitte after signing Kuroda, trading for Pineda, re-signing Garcia, and giving Hughes a chance to make the rotation? Why create a situation where you’ll have as many as seven starters and one guy who beats out another guy for the fifth starter job in spring training could be bumped out of the rotation with Pettitte’s return?

    Cashman pushed Pineda when he shouldn’t have and now the price is Sabathia/Kuroda/Nova/Garcia/Hughes which is the weakest possible combination when you consider Garcia and Hughes have been battling for a rotation job all spring. At least Pettitte will return in May. The only “positive” (for lack of a better word) about Pineda on the DL is the rotation is set, no who goes to the bullpen, Garcia or Hughes?, it forces Garcia, Nova, and Hughes to battle each other to stay in the rotation when Pettitte returns then forces the two survivors to battle to stay in the rotation if/when Pineda returns.

    Cashman is an ass for trading Montero and Noesi for Pineda. His situation with Louise Neathway has definitely contributed to his clouded judgement. He should be fired if the Yanks don’t win the World Series this year, especially if it’s because the Yanks lacked a true #2 for the postseason. Hopefully Pettitte will be that #2 and save Cashman’s ass again.

  54. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 9:13 pm

    Pat M-

    Did you beat the spread in the first game?

  55. rm March 31st, 2012 at 9:13 pm

    The Yankees catching prospects are far from bleak, Romine is good, Sanchez might be better than Montero, Martin could return to the performance he had early in his career and if all else fails Joe Mauer will probably be available in 4 or 5 yeaars and the Yankees are one of the few teams that can afford his contract. It is easy to understand why Montero was expendable.

  56. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 9:13 pm

    Yankee Trader -

    That’s the Verducci Effect Redux. You’ve survived the Verducci effect, succeeded and make the cover of SI, only to suffer the second, and worse, iteration of the syndrome. :)

  57. Bronx Jeers March 31st, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    Trader…….By the way, good report I remember that inning well ….

    —————————————————-

    Word. It was like the Zapruder film.

    Back, and to the left….

  58. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 9:15 pm

    Trader……By 1/2 point …

  59. blake March 31st, 2012 at 9:19 pm

    “Is the “Verducci effect” a death sentence or a short-term thing to get through?”

    Temporary in general….im trying to think of someone who went through the “innings hangover ” stuff with no structural damage and never regained most if not all of their velocity…..can’t really think of anybody. Bumgardner…..Hamels, Hughes….etc….all got it back eventually.

  60. Duh Innings March 31st, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    Oh yeah, Cashman won’t always have Pettitte to fall back on.

    Again, the only quality full seasons by homegrown Yankee starting pitchers signed by Cashman since Cashman became GM:

    2006-2007 Wang
    2010 Hughes
    2011 Nova

    Four seasons out of SEVENTY seasons (5 rotation slots x 14 years.)

    Only ONE by a pitcher from America (2010 Hughes.)

    Cashman is an abject failure in developing starting pitchers.

    He acquires starters via trade, signs it, or re-signs it, that’s it.

    ‘Dude can’t develop a viable fifth starter if his life depended on it.

    None of the AAA starters will be in the rotation next year, especially if Pettitte has a good 2012 and wants to come back cuz it’ll be Sabathia/Hamels or Cain/Pettitte/Two from Pineda, Hughes, Nova, Garcia, and Kuroda.

  61. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    “I have to ask what that says about Cashman’s descion in paying top price for a pitcher who was a prime candidate for the Verducci effect. Did this not factor in his descion?”

    Since Pineda is part of the Yankees future, they were probably willing to give it some time.

    But again, they were paying “top price” but it was a price they were willing to pay. And if they didn’t pay it in that trade, it seems they were willing to pay it at some point.

  62. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    You probably have already seen John Harper’s NY Daily news piece this evening, but it’ll give you his insight whether the Yankees made the right trade. Then you can argue with him!

    http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....-1.1053949

  63. Bronx Jeers March 31st, 2012 at 9:35 pm

    Only ONE by a pitcher from America (2010 Hughes.)

    ———————————————

    Classic.

    It’s rare to see stupidity in it’s crystalline form.

  64. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:38 pm

    Sorry, been on the phone helping out a client (for real). So if anything was posted to me, I will now take a look and respond.

  65. austinmac March 31st, 2012 at 9:39 pm

    Nick,

    I would bet Pettitte pitches first.

  66. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    Bronx Jeers…….Even though I’m getting wacked right now in the Hoops game, your post had be cracking up…..Thank you

  67. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    Romine is good, Sanchez might be better than Montero

    ————-

    Romine is dealing with back issues and still needs to improve his hitting.

    I’ve seen ppl bring this up on other boards….when did Sanchez become better than Montero?

  68. m March 31st, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    trisha,

    Best you don’t look!

  69. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:41 pm

    Duh Innings March 31st, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    :lol:

  70. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    mel – too late!

    But I needed a laugh.

    :)

  71. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:45 pm

    “And you’re always right and levelheaded? Put down your pinstriped pom-poms to remove your pinstriped-lensed glasses, after you get off your high horse. Who died and made you the voice of reason on here? Your username suits you because you’re Ms.Cashman Can Do No Wrong and I’m sick of it and your condescension”

    Methinks someone’s in need of the wah wah wambulance!

  72. austinmac March 31st, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    “when did Sanchez get better than Montero?”

    After the trade they were reevaluated.

  73. yankeefeminista March 31st, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    # Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    Romine is good, Sanchez might be better than Montero

    ————-

    Romine is dealing with back issues and still needs to improve his hitting.

    I’ve seen ppl bring this up on other boards….when did Sanchez become better than Montero?
    _____
    When Montero became Joe Replacement Level Player.

  74. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    Bronx Jeers is my hero.

    Now, That’s a Primo. Woah

  75. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:49 pm

    Even after Michael Pineda injury, Yankees GM Brian Cashman still made right move trading Jesus Montero to Mariners for pitcher

    Second-guessers may come out of woodwork, but Cash made right play

    That’s a double bingo.

  76. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    “when did Sanchez become better than Montero?”

    When Montero got traded for a broken down project who’s not even from America?

  77. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:52 pm

    mel, and all the Montero supporters are secretly cheering Duh Innings on!

    :lol:

  78. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 9:55 pm

    That’s a double bingo.
    ——-
    Trisha- BOO-YAH! :)

  79. tomingeorgia March 31st, 2012 at 9:55 pm

    My reply would have been shorter, but I didn’t have the time.

  80. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:57 pm

    Was so tempted to use the two word brush off…

  81. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 10:00 pm

    “Did I just read that The NY Yankees traded Mike Piazza ???”

    Just as FYI that was a direct quote from Cashman.

  82. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 10:01 pm

    blake -

    What about years and years ago? I mean, there’s the “sophomore jinx,” but I believe that was for any second year player, not just pitchers. And that had a connotation of just having to readjust to the league, not injury or physical setback.

    How far back did Verducci’s research go when he devised this theory?

    How differently did pitchers train and develop going way back? ANd what about those indicators? Are there any? For instance, all things being equal in innings, and team and everything else, could the fact that player A did not pitch until junior year in high school make him less susceptible than a kid who started pitching as a sophomore? That kind of thing. What about a guy who went to college and had a heavy workload? Is he more susceptible to “Verducci” than a guy who had a lighter college workload, or how about the guys who went into baseball right after HS? Do larger players have more of tendency to have difficulty than smaller guys when there is a more than optimal innings increase? Is there an optimal increase progression or a range anyway?

    I guess it’s not an exact science.

  83. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:03 pm

    “Your username suits you because you’re Ms.Cashman Can Do No Wrong”

    Actually that’s not quite true. For example, I thought bringing back Javy Vazquez was the absolute wrong move. I’m on the record everywhere here as having said so. The difference is that I don’t roll up into a ball, froth at the mouth, wet my pants, cry like a baby, and continually curse the heavens because things didn’t go my way, nor do I call for someone to be fired because they had the audacity to go against my better judgment.

    I adjust and move on.

  84. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 10:03 pm

    I thought the Verducci Effect involved helping a guy write his autobiography in the third person.

    What’s all this about pitching?

  85. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:05 pm

    It’s one thing for the Knicks to beat the Cavs. Can they continue to prevail without Lin? We’ll see.

  86. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 10:06 pm

    Tar……I think Brain made that comment so the Mariners fans wouldn’t boycott Safeco……Mike Piazza, really now ???

  87. blake March 31st, 2012 at 10:06 pm

    “What about years and years ago?”

    Verducci wasn’t around years and year ago :) nah I don’t know…. I really don’t know the answer to any of those questions…..if this is a more current problem….or one that folks just haven’t noticed until recently as much because of the amount of coverage these days….fangraphs pages that track velocity etc….you’re right….it’s not an exact science at all….but it does seem to be something with a fairly high frequency with young pitchers these days….not all of them of course….but enough to be significant

  88. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:06 pm

    I thought the Verducci Effect involved helping a guy write his autobiography in the third person.

    What’s all this about pitching?

    ————————

    There’s Nick rounding back into form. All this, on a Saturday night

  89. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 10:08 pm

    Bo knows, people were questioning my velocity. :mad:

  90. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 10:09 pm

    Nick in SF, that happens after the workload increase problem, the recovery from the workload increase leading to a stellar career that is chronicled by Verducci in SI, which eventually leads to a downward spiral in the player’s career, culminating in a ghostwritten autobiography that recaptures the glory days and blames others for their demise.

  91. m March 31st, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    Nick wasn’t as funny in Mexico.

    #somethinginthewater

  92. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    Villa – LMAO!

  93. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    m, I was funnier in Mexico, just not on LoHud. ;)

  94. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:11 pm

    I’m wondering if I should re-open the chart and give people a chance to change their predictions based on Pineda going down? I’m certainly willing to do it.

    Anyone?

  95. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 10:12 pm

    Actually Pat M it was even better than just Piazza.

    Cashman.

    “”To me, Montero is Mike Piazza. He’s Miguel Cabrera.”

    :D

  96. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:12 pm

    Bo knows, people were questioning my velocity.

    —————-
    I acknowledged, Alright – Nick is back. Ten degrees off and linear.

    I think I’ll go blow my nose now.

  97. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 10:12 pm

    blake -

    I didn’t expect answers :)

  98. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 10:13 pm

    Villa and Blake-

    Years ago baseball players were real men. There was no crying in baseball and no Verducci effect.

    Case in point. When Alvin Dark came to the mound to remove his young pitcher, Juan Marichal in the 9th inning of a 0-0 game, Marichal said ,no way-I’m staying in the game as long as the old man is pitching. That old man was Warren Spahn. They pitched all 16 innings, won by Marichal 1-0.

  99. blake March 31st, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    If Cashman really thought he was trading Mike Piazza then he wouldn’t have traded him…..I think he could have that sort of upside but that’s just spin by Cash…if he believed that then he wouldn’t have traded him….maybe he should have believed it.

  100. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:15 pm

    And then there’s m, dropping torpedoes.

    Damn, I missed you guys.

  101. m March 31st, 2012 at 10:15 pm

    You were funnier or more fun? :P

  102. blake March 31st, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    “Years ago baseball players were real men.”

    and nobody even knew how fast guys were throwing because Andrew Marchand wasn’t around yet to tweet it.

  103. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    You know, some of you really need to wake up and smell the, er, tulips!

    http://www.weather.com/outlook.....2012-03-31

  104. CompassRosy March 31st, 2012 at 10:18 pm

    @StoneLarry: April Fools pre-emptive warning: If any news outlet reports Felix Hernandez has been traded to the Yankees, it’s not true

    :-)

  105. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    and nobody even knew how fast guys were throwing because Andrew Marchand wasn’t around yet to tweet it
    ——————————–

    And people thought Blake was just a guy with a pretty smile.

  106. Pat M. March 31st, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Bo Knows…….Nick in SF pulled an Erica number on me last night….Set me up to knock me down……How many Ritter Bars Nicky Boy are on the table ????

  107. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:21 pm

    “I’m a little sad, but that’s OK,” said Pineda, who did not know he had been placed on the DL. “I’ll be OK and I’m pitching this year. I’m coming back strong. I want everybody to see the real Michael Pineda.”

    We believe you Mike, and we’re behind you.

  108. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 10:22 pm

    Trisha-

    And this is where all those beautiful tulips go!

    http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/p.....de41abc0cb

  109. Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 10:25 pm

    Pat M, my bet with Patrick is for 5 Ritter Sport bars, just as with you, so that’s 10 riding on the 2012 future of Michael Pineda.

    I should get a commission from Herr Ritter.

  110. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:26 pm

    Pat

    He’s like a shark in the water. Mixed metaphor here.

    Roiled water

    “Something in the water”.

    Now, I’m confused.

    I think I’ll go terrorize a “Preston of the Airways”

  111. Melk Man March 31st, 2012 at 10:38 pm

    “Did I just read that The NY Yankees traded Mike Piazza ???? Really !!! Now he was a pure hitter who didn’t whiff much for a power hitter….I’m not sure if he ever k’d more than 90 times and was a .300 plus hitter…..Yeah, The NY Yankees traded that guy……”

    This was a quote straight from the horse’s mouth the night the trade was announced:

    Brian Cashman stressed, “huge risk” in deal w/Mariners. “I gave up a ton (for Pineda). To me, Montero is Mike PIazza. He’s Miguel Cabrera.”

    https://twitter.com/#!/BobKlap/status/158030532062621697

    So it’s not only the fans who are comparing him to all time greats. His own GM still is even after he was traded.

  112. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 10:46 pm

    yankeefeminista March 31st, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    # Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    Romine is good, Sanchez might be better than Montero

    ————-

    Romine is dealing with back issues and still needs to improve his hitting.

    I’ve seen ppl bring this up on other boards….when did Sanchez become better than Montero?
    _____
    When Montero became Joe Replacement Level Player.

    ————–

    Happened overnight lol

  113. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 10:49 pm

    Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    “when did Sanchez become better than Montero?”

    When Montero got traded for a broken down project who’s not even from America?

    ———————

    I’m not happy that Pineda got injured but that’s a little harsh unless if you’re just joking

  114. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    Trader – ho-ly! That’s a lot of flowers!!! 20 mil per day? Good lord.

  115. m March 31st, 2012 at 10:59 pm

    He was tweaking someone who said that Hughes id the only made-in-America pitcher the Yankees something or another. I could get through that person’s post.

  116. luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:01 pm

    Question to the forum:

    Do you think that Nova is at risk of the same thing that Pineda suffered?….I know his velocity is there, but do you think it could happen?

  117. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 11:02 pm

    Do you think that Nova is at risk of the same thing that Pineda suffered?….I know his velocity is there, but do you think it could happen?

    No, he had a nice build up of innings.

  118. luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:04 pm

    m March 31st, 2012 at 10:59 pm

    He was tweaking someone who said that Hughes id the only made-in-America pitcher the Yankees something or another. I could get through that person’s post.

    ===========================================

    ;) I need translation to understand that post!, maybe try it in Spanish?

  119. luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:05 pm

    By the way, good evening everyone.

  120. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 11:06 pm

    “No, he had a nice build up of innings.”

    Ditto.

  121. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 11:07 pm

    Do you think that Nova is at risk of the same thing that Pineda suffered?….I know his velocity is there, but do you think it could happen?

    ——————–
    Negative

    Nova was brought along sensibly. He had high number innings in the minors.

    That is the conundrum with the high end pitchers that TB doesn’t do. In simple form, increase the innings each year until you get to 150 in the minors. Teams cheat – better to lose time in the minors than at the Major level.

  122. m March 31st, 2012 at 11:10 pm

    Hughes *is* and I could *not* get through that post.
    Luis, were you talking about my post? :lol:

  123. luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:11 pm

    Thank you. I thought the same thing.

    Bo knows,

    Just to 150?…I thought that it was somewhere around 175 innings, so they can throw 200 in the bigs.

  124. luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:13 pm

    m March 31st, 2012 at 11:10 pm

    Hughes *is* and I could *not* get through that post.
    Luis, were you talking about my post? :lol:

    =====================

    :D Yup, couldn’t figure out what you were trying to say

  125. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 11:16 pm

    That is the conundrum with the high end pitchers that TB doesn’t do.

    With pretty much every team in the majors, the really high end prospects don’t get the time in the minors because they are so good. Its those 3-20 round draftees that aren’t immediate hot shots that get the build up. Phelps, Warren, Mitchell, Noesi, Nova all got very sensible build ups.

    Hughes, Joba, and IPK were too dominant to sit in the minors for very long.

    Betances and Banuelos have had injury derail their build up, which is sad.

  126. luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:21 pm

    Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 11:16 pm

    That is the conundrum with the high end pitchers that TB doesn’t do.

    With pretty much every team in the majors, the really high end prospects don’t get the time in the minors because they are so good. Its those 3-20 round draftees that aren’t immediate hot shots that get the build up. Phelps, Warren, Mitchell, Noesi, Nova all got very sensible build ups.

    Hughes, Joba, and IPK were too dominant to sit in the minors for very long.

    Betances and Banuelos have had injury derail their build up, which is sad.

    ======================================

    Evidence shows that if you build the innings in a sensible way, you might avoid injuries and sophomore regression. i hope they don’t rush any of those in to service, let them built their innings in the minors and have them ready to handle 200 innings.

  127. TheStraw March 31st, 2012 at 11:30 pm

    There is of course an opposite theory, currently being tried out by the Rangers under Ryan’s orders. They have yet to suffer any sort of debilitating injury. Kind of makes one think it is all just a big crapshoot when it comes to pitching and injuries…

  128. ron March 31st, 2012 at 11:30 pm

    pineda’s innings

    2008-138.1
    2009-47.1
    2010-139.1
    2011-171.0

    Where did the mariners go wrong?

  129. jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 11:33 pm

    Frankly, I don’t think the Verducci effect has been proven. It could just be that the biggest pitching prospects more often get the bigger inning jumps and are rushed through the minors more often, because they are so good. And on average the better pitching prospects are harder throwers. It could just be that there are more injuries to these pitching prospects that are rushed because they are on average harder throwers, which of course creates more stress and more injuries.

    Correlation does not imply causation.

  130. Jerkface March 31st, 2012 at 11:34 pm

    There is of course an opposite theory, currently being tried out by the Rangers under Ryan’s orders. They have yet to suffer any sort of debilitating injury. Kind of makes one think it is all just a big crapshoot when it comes to pitching and injuries…

    There is no 1 way to get a pitcher. I advocate trying different things! Thats why I hope they dont put Betances & Banuelos in the bullpen. Right to the rotation!

  131. luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:37 pm

    Ron,

    Same as with Hughes….The jump from 09 to 2010 is almost 90 innings….In the case of Hughes was a little more 86 to 176,1 innings. it seems that not matter if you have pitch a relative heavy load in the past….When you jump more than 40 innings, there is a red flag.

  132. luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:41 pm

    What is mind boggling is that it didn’t occur on the very next year, but two years later.

  133. jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 11:48 pm

    luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:41 pm
    What is mind boggling is that it didn’t occur on the very next year, but two years later.

    I doubt there was an effect that showed up two years later. I suspect Pineda just didn’t work much or at all in the offseason, then tried to accelerate from nothing to low 90′s (and perhaps trying for more) too fast.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to see Pineda spend some time at API this offseason.

  134. Stoneburner March 31st, 2012 at 11:50 pm

    TheStraw March 31st, 2012 at 11:30 pm
    There is of course an opposite theory, currently being tried out by the Rangers under Ryan’s orders. They have yet to suffer any sort of debilitating injury. Kind of makes one think it is all just a big crapshoot when it comes to pitching and injuries…

    ***********

    I live in the Arlington, Texas area – and the Rangers are now experiencing their version of the Joba debate with Neftali Feliz – so everyone organization has some sort of drama. . . .

  135. luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:51 pm

    jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 11:48 pm

    Then, why was he put on the Verducci list as a pitcher at risk?

  136. jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:51 pm
    jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 11:48 pm

    Then, why was he put on the Verducci list as a pitcher at risk?

    Do they use some kind of rolling average? It was probably because of 2009 -> 2010. He only went up about 30 innings 2010 -> 2011. I just doubt that an innings jump 2009 -> 2010 would not have shown up until 2012.

  137. rm March 31st, 2012 at 11:58 pm

    Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 9:51 pm
    “when did Sanchez become better than Montero?”

    I’m sorry i didn’t that “might be better than” translated to “is better than” on this board. Sanchez has been higgly thought of since the Yankees signed him for $3 Million when he was 16 years old.

    He batted .353/.419/.597 as a 17 year old. He clearly has a high ceiling and the early reports were that he may be a better defensive player. I stand by my statement that he MIGHT BE better than Montero. But my point is that the Yankees have a lot of very good catching options and they are likely to maintain their tradition of great catching (Dickey,Yogi,Howard,Munson,Posada) because they have the resourses to do so.

  138. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 11:58 pm

    I am glad that his shoulder appears to be structurally sound, although I had tendinitis of the shoulder, and it wasn’t resolved very quickly.

  139. rm March 31st, 2012 at 11:59 pm

    that’s didn’t know that

  140. luis April 1st, 2012 at 12:01 am

    This leads me to believe that a jump in innings of more than 40-50 at any point of a young pitcher career, puts him at risk to suffer some kind of setback in the future.

  141. luis April 1st, 2012 at 12:03 am

    Rich,

    How long did it take your tendinitis to heal?

  142. ron April 1st, 2012 at 12:04 am

    So by hughes pitching about 88.2 total innings in 2011,he shouldn’t pitch more than 128 innings this year?

  143. Triple Short of a Cycle April 1st, 2012 at 12:06 am

    Girardi previously had downplayed all talk about Pineda’s velocity but on Saturday, after the 6-foot-7 righthander was hit hard Friday night, he admitted the Yankees have been puzzled by it.

    ————————————————————————-

    Which is why you can never believe anything Cash or Girardi says

  144. Rich in NJ April 1st, 2012 at 12:07 am

    luis

    Well over a month, after two cortisone shots and a few weeks of anti-inflammatories, along with some physical therapy.

    But I did it lifting weights, so maybe mine was worse than Pineda’s.

  145. luis April 1st, 2012 at 12:12 am

    ron April 1st, 2012 at 12:04 am

    So by hughes pitching about 88.2 total innings in 2011,he shouldn’t pitch more than 128 innings this year?

    ================================

    By young i meant under 25-26….I don’t know what could happen to Hughes. Verlander had his dead arm thing and has never had a set back again, of course he did pitch 200 innings that season.

  146. luis April 1st, 2012 at 12:15 am

    Rich in NJ April 1st, 2012 at 12:07 am

    luis

    Well over a month, after two cortisone shots and a few weeks of anti-inflammatories, along with some physical therapy.

    But I did it lifting weights, so maybe mine was worse than Pineda’s.

    =============================================

    Who knows?………..Throwing a baseball at 90 plus miles an hour is quite an straining effort.

    In any case, i think Pineda might be out for at least three to four months

  147. Nilsson April 1st, 2012 at 12:17 am

    This is now 2 clean independent MRI diagnosis done on Pineda’s shoulder within a span of 3 months. At least that we know of. So I’m actually feeling better about his shoulder than I did when he went through his initial physical in January, FWIW.

    Anyway, I do agree that it would behoove Pineda to attend an offseason training session in the near future. He’s a young kid … still learning.

  148. lounge lizard April 1st, 2012 at 12:22 am

    The somewhat odd thing about the Pineda fact pattern is that it was between 2009 and 2010 that he experienced his big velocity jump. A scouting report dated January 2010 rates his fastball no better than his change (and, at that point, he had been in the Mariners system for three years). A report dated a few months later mentions that he showed up in ST Februray 2010 with the huge fastball.

    So he misses most of 2009 with an elbow injury, doesn’t pitch formal winter ball . . . and gains 4 mph on his fastball. The 4 mph that he and the Yanks are now looking for.

    He clearly was on some kind of program in the offseason 09-10; you can’t get that result from sitting on a couch. In terms of readily available info on what he was doing, though, it’s a black hole. Same for offseason 10-11, when he also didn’t pitch formal winter ball and showed up in prime shape for ST 2011.

    Problem one is: can he restore his velocity by getting back to some version of whatever program he previously had success with? Then, problem two will be: can his mechanics allow him to withstand the forces involved and pitch healthily for an extended period of time?

  149. luis April 1st, 2012 at 12:30 am

    lounge lizard April 1st, 2012 at 12:22 am

    This is an interesting point. Banuelos velocity jump came back after his appendix was removed. He worked hard and showed up with a mid 90′s FB. He has kept the same conditioning program, so he is had that velocity for almost three years now.

    Maybe he did have a conditioning program while his elbow was hurt, but at some point he dropped it. If this is true, then he can regain the velocity for a sustain period of time. The question then would be, does he has the make up and drive to make it happen?

  150. Rich in NJ April 1st, 2012 at 12:35 am

    Isn’t FB velo more a function of fast-twitch muscle fibers than the result of conditioning (all things being equal)?

  151. luis April 1st, 2012 at 12:43 am

    Rich in NJ April 1st, 2012 at 12:35 am

    Isn’t FB velo more a function of fast-twitch muscle fibers than the result of conditioning (all things being equal)?

    ======================

    I honestly don’t know. But i read that Banuelos spent a great deal of time strengthening his core. After that his velocity went up by three miles in average. It’s just a theory to explain the jump of velocity on Pineda as well. He was injured, after that he shows up with a mid 90′s fastball. He becomes an MLB pitcher and dropped the conditioning program in the offseason and comes back with the previous FB, that he had prior the injury.

  152. Jerkface April 1st, 2012 at 1:04 am

    Fastballs are like running speed, for the most part you’re born with the aptitude.

  153. lounge lizard April 1st, 2012 at 1:08 am

    A few thoughts on that. There are some fastball throwers who are more natural than others. Pineda didn’t show great velocity early, so he probably needs to depend more on being in peak conditon.

    Second, elite sprinters, though they rely on fast twitch and only compete for a matter of seconds, have to train every day and just as diligently as longer distance runners to achieve maximum results. (Track and field is (was) my participation sport.)

    Third, pitching, particularly starting pitching, has many of the characteristics of an endurance activity, even if pitchers rely substantially on fast twitch fibers. That is why they need four days to recover from the stress. There is all the difference in the world between being able to “touch” a given velocity and being able to “sit” at that velocity and conditioning is a great part of that.

  154. Jacques Strappe April 1st, 2012 at 1:40 am

    Methinks:

    It isn’t the same as Hughes last year, but it’s similar. It’s also convenient that the rotation has been resolved, at least until Pettitte is speculated to come back.

    When they got Pineda they said he was still a work in progress. I got the impression they (unlike some people on this blog) weren’t expecting a Cy Young season from him this year. I was actually expecting a decent but not great year from Pineda this year, and the 2013 season to be a breakout year. Actually I was thinking this year would be Hughes turn to throw down the gauntlet & claim his permanent place near the front of in the rotation, not Pineda.

    I’m not about to condemn Cashman for making the trade especially when he already got Freddy Garcia as an insurance policy. And a good insurance policy at that.

    By the time Pettitte time rolls around we’ll have seen the weak link in the rotation barring injury. And there will be one weak or injured link, we just don’t know who yet. Whoever that wask link at the time is can expect Pettitte to take his place until (if) Pettitte proves a comback isn’t in the cards.

    If Pineda can whip his butt into ssome kind of shape for the 2nd half this year, and come to camp all tuned in next year, then we might see Pineda a similar path to committing himself to the job as we’re apparterntly seeing from Hughes now.

  155. Rich in NJ April 1st, 2012 at 7:17 am

    Alex Gordon signed an extension with KC. Another potential bat off the market. Offense is getting locked up all over MLB.

  156. MaineYankee April 1st, 2012 at 7:44 am

    Rich in NJ April 1st, 2012 at 7:17 am
    Alex Gordon signed an extension with KC. Another potential bat off the market. Offense is getting locked up all over MLB.

    —————————————————————————————

    The Yankees could get a bat the same way they got Granderson.

    They have plenty of chips to pull that off.

  157. yankee21 April 1st, 2012 at 7:58 am

    If Hughes and or Nova show the ability to be a #2, #3 pitcher in 2012 and Betances really has an outstanding season at AAA, then you have the makings of two pitchers that could be packaged as part of a trade to bring back an impact bat.

  158. blake April 1st, 2012 at 7:59 am

    “Fastballs are like running speed, for the most part you’re born with the aptitude.”

    Not always…..I know a certain reliever in the big leagues now and he topped out at 85/86 in high school…..88-90 in college……and now sits 93-95 in the big leagues…….every guy is different and physically maturity can play a big role in it as well…..its why Banuelos all the suddenly started throwing harder last year

  159. blake April 1st, 2012 at 8:01 am

    Yankee21,

    Not to get into specifics…..but Cash should probably be exploring options along those lines.

  160. blake April 1st, 2012 at 8:05 am

    “Alex Gordon signed an extension with KC. Another potential bat off the market. Offense is getting locked up all over MLB.”

    Offense is easier to find than pitching remember ;)

  161. randy l. April 1st, 2012 at 8:09 am

    i find the pineda situation disconcerting. what i was hoping for was a nice crisp productive time at AAA for about 6 weeks learning and mastering that plus change up .

    now pineda is entering that rehab time that has gobbled up hughes, joba, wang, and kennedy at various times. who knows when he’ll reappear.

    make no mistake. this is a serious setback for this kid.

    i’m surprised how little reflection time most people on the blog have when thinking about this.

    it didn’t have to be like this. tendonitis is an overuse injury relative to the shape an athlete is in.

    this by definition means that pineda was thrwoing too much for the shape he was in.

    he’s partly to blame for not speaking up.severe tendonitis doesn’t just appear one day out of the blue.

    the yankees are the most to blame because they are overseeing his training. the plan was wrong in the first place to do so much in spring training.

    when pineda showed up in bad baseball shape, the yankees should have revised their plan. instead the yankees left pineda on their HURRY UP AND WAIT PLAN.

    that’s the one where they rush kids and then are very patient on their rehabs.

    this is an ongoing pattern. let’s face it, they were really counting on this kid to be good. they still are.

    they knew he had to learn a new pitch or rather improve substantially an old pitch. their plan to have him do this while competing for the fifth spot plus winning when he won it in the regular season was what set up the tendonitis.

    pineda’s tendonitis is not some fluke injury that could happen to anyone. the yankees created it with overuse for pineada’s conditioning level coming into spring training.

    they should have taken one look at him and revised the plan.

  162. blake April 1st, 2012 at 8:23 am

    “they should have taken one look at him and revised the plan.”

    Maybe ideally but I don’t think its that easy…..they just aquired the kid and reportedly asked him repeatedly if anything hurt and he said no…….were they supposed to just shut him down and not pitch him in ST because of phantom missing velo that in reality coukd have been initially just from him needing to build arm strength.

    Tendinitis hurts…..if he was saying nothing hurt then there was no reason to suspect that……especially when they just met the kid.

    In a vacuum or ideal world maybe the Yanks could have shut him down after that first outing and said look…you ain’t pitching again until you can throw 97 again…..but that’s not realistic and I don’t think any team would have done that after they just traded a guy like Montero for him.

    BTW….morning Randy and everyone.

  163. randy l. April 1st, 2012 at 8:24 am

    “Not always…..I know a certain reliever in the big leagues now and he topped out at 85/86 in high school…..88-90 in college……and now sits 93-95 in the big leagues…”

    blake -

    i agree. long toss and other programs can really increase velocity. it could be argued that the potential velocity is waiting to be tapped. obviously everyone can’t do it.

  164. randy l. April 1st, 2012 at 8:35 am

    good morning blake-

    earlier this spring,i made the joke about pineda showing up twenty pounds overweight looking like a python that had swallowed a pig. he was kind of skinny with a big mid section. he clearly had not trained much.

    red alarms have to go off right at this point.

    the idea the yankees had instead was to juts proceed ahead normally and let pineada work off the excess weight.

    right there at that fork in the road ,they made a colossal blunder.

  165. Against All Odds April 1st, 2012 at 8:38 am

    right there at that fork in the road ,they made a colossal blunder.

    ———————————-
    wasn’t the first time :D

  166. TheStraw April 1st, 2012 at 8:39 am

    How is a team responsible for a guy eating his way to being out of shape? What would you recommend they do? They are running a baseball team, not a fat camp.

  167. randy l. April 1st, 2012 at 8:43 am

    up until his last start pineda was getting results. he had a good era. the yankees and people on the blog here were optimistic because of these results.

    yes, the velocity was down, but the results were good if you looked at just era.

    thre was a chance that pineda would come up to speed by the time spring training ended, but now in retrospect i would think even the most die hard supporters of girardi and cashman can see that the plan was a low probability one.

    i said it before that i though pineda was going to be a high maintenance pitcher.
    i think he’s going to have to be coached and guided every step of the way.
    hopefully , the yankees stop and look at themselves and try to bring their “A” game to pineda.

    he hasn’t gotten that so far.

  168. randy l. April 1st, 2012 at 8:44 am

    “How is a team responsible for a guy eating his way to being out of shape?”

    i agree that part is on pineda.

  169. TheStraw April 1st, 2012 at 8:44 am

    They can no more oversee Pineda coming into camp in shape than they can Joba not jumping on a trampoline or DRob not falling down the stairs. These guys are not chattel, they are people with lives and free will on the offseason. It’s on them if they do something to themselves that is counter productive to their baseball career.

  170. Villa Nova-Ya April 1st, 2012 at 8:48 am

    randy l -

    Okay, so a guy shows up in a state of “out of shape” – 10 to 20 pounds overweight – and says he didn’t work out over the winter because of the innings leap the prior year (assuming Pineda or his agent communicated that).

    How would you proceed?

    Would you allow him to throw at all?

    Would you put him on a program to lose the weight and just get into generally good shape, no throwing required?

    And does anyone else do it that way?

    Would you require any new signs (via trade or free agency) to report to camp early to assess their readiness and then plan accordingly?

    I think he should have showed up at playing weight. I won’t speak to how he should have worked out over the off-season, because I know zilch about such things with regard to a professional athlete.

    Is it unreasonable to think that on a body of that size that 10-20 pounds (the range that has been reported) will be able fairly easy to drop with the workouts that the pitchers do starting when they first arrive?

    They don’t start pitchers out throwing full on, and I’d assume they were assessing him from the get-go. Having to build arm strength seems to be something that all pitchers do at the start of ST. As long as there is no pain or discomfort or soreness reported by the pitcher and no overtly obvious problems in mechanics, why would any team change their usual program?

    I’m just trying to understand where these lines should be drawn? Up to the other night, Pineda reported no discomfort, no soreness, no pain. He insisted he was holding back because it was ST, and he knew he needed to go the distance of the season. This is Pineda talking. So, with all that taken into consideration, I’m not sure the Yankees made as colossal mistake as you’re saying.

  171. Pville April 1st, 2012 at 8:49 am

    Shouldn’t a professional athlete making millions of dollars come into camp in shape?

  172. Yankee Trader April 1st, 2012 at 8:54 am

    I feel fairly certain that Pineda suffered the injury in the 3rd inning. Previous to that inning he was not grimacing, favoring his shoulder, nor taking as much time between pitches. He had even posted a 94 on the radar gun before the 3rd.

    I posted this last night:

    Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:54 pm
    Rewatched Pineda’s outing again. It was the 59th pitch after a walk to Polanco that clearly something was wrong. He was grimacing and rotating his right shoulder while waiting for the next batter.
    Next pitch 79 mph curve, next pitch 88 mph fastball, next one 79 mph slider, next one 88 mph fastball that was hit to A-rod who made an error on the throw.

    This seems to be the first indication that the pitcher thru his body actions seemed to indicate something was wrong. I think his injury occured this inning, and Larry Rothschild came out to check on him after that error, pitch #63.

    By pitch #70, with no pitch above 89mph the next batter after the error, Ruiz rocked him for a double, just after Cone 1st commented that Pineda’s arm strength just wasn’t there, and Pineda was removed.

    I really think that if he was “sore” before, that he aggravated his shoulder this inning, or if he experienced no soreness before last night, that everything occured that inning.

    Now you can surmise that him coming into camp, 10 pounds overweight, not having tossed the ball in the offseason, the increased workload last year, whatever contributed to the injury, but if you look at that third inning, specifically pitch #59, that’s when thru his body language, the real injury or aggravation of the soreness occurred.

  173. blake April 1st, 2012 at 8:56 am

    Randy,

    Yea….but I don’t think showing up a littler over weight means you don’t pitcher the guy…..as I’ve said…..I think the majority of the issue is unrelated to that anyway.

  174. jacksquat April 1st, 2012 at 8:57 am

    Pineda is not “fat”, that is not the problem. He was not in condition, that is different. You can be in pitching condition and still carry extra body fat. Just look at CC. There have been many other good pitchers that have carried extra weight.

  175. blake April 1st, 2012 at 9:00 am

    I do think the Yanks need to be sure their young guys are doing what they need to in the offseason…….thebolder guys know what it takes. Jeter says all the time that its much easier to stay in shape than to get back in to shape…..that applies to youngsters as well……I think if you do nothing over the winter and show up in ST trying to ramp up too quickly then you’re more.likely to injure yourself.

    I’m this case though…..the Mariners had.more to do with Pineda’s offseason than the Yankees did…..

  176. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 9:01 am

    Still whining about Pineda? For your information, Pineda isn’t making millions of dollars. Not all of these young players, who by the way, pay taxes in two or three countries and several states, along with the cities can afford personal trainers, nutritionists and equip their homes with every bit of exercise equipment available. Running and sit-ups/push-ups will only do so much. Pineda is a big guy, but, not as big as Sabathia. If that were the case, how good would Sabathia be if he came to ST in top shape?

  177. MTU April 1st, 2012 at 9:02 am

    Good morning.

    Great thread from last night.

    Some really interesting stuff.

    The Verducci effect, etc.

  178. blake April 1st, 2012 at 9:05 am

    How’s it going MTU? Got 15 lbs of pulled pork for birthday party today…..come on over…..you want vinegar based or Memphis type sauce?

  179. Yankee Trader April 1st, 2012 at 9:06 am

    Villa and Randy-

    I would hope that the Yankees already do this when trading for and/or signing a player in the offseason.

    All medical information and tests are reviewed and any other necessary testing and evaluation is done prior to completing the trade.
    The player gets a list of what is expected of him in the offseason, as well as what is expected of him to play for the NYY.
    The player receives a list of all resources that are available, such as nutritionist, trainer, sports psychologist before they arrive to ST.

    Their agent needs to be involved as well.

    That’s just for starters.

  180. randy l. April 1st, 2012 at 9:08 am

    “So, with all that taken into consideration, I’m not sure the Yankees made as colossal mistake as you’re saying.”

    the mistake is obvious.

    they seem to have a one size fits all training program.

    it works for most pitchers.

    when a guy shows up out of shape, he should go into the fat out of shape program.

    that clearly should be different than the show up in shape program.

    girardi himself said yesterday that when pitchers are competing for a job in spring training they hide injuries and soreness.

    pineda had to be hurting before yesterday and simply hid it.

    the yankees should have been looking out for what girardi himself said pitchers do when having to earn a spot on the team.

    i can see that this difference of opinion that you and i have right now is going to be where blog positions polarize.

    i had taken similar position on the past with hughes, joba, and wang. no matter how many times i’m right that the yankees rush young pitchers, yankee supporters of the rushing will say it’s not the yankees fault.

    guess what, once or twice is bad luck. but four times with big time pitchers is not bad luck. it’s the yankees creating the problems.

    i’m not freaking out here because the yankees are still loaded . they should be kicking red sox butt in no time.

    i just hate seeing the yankees burn years off young pitcher’s careers .

  181. MTU April 1st, 2012 at 9:09 am

    Another way the Yankees might help to avoid potential injury to their Pitchers is to do baseline strength testing before, during, and at the end of the season.

    Build up a profile on each guy.

    If a guy comes into camp and falls well below the “normal” profile then a red flag might go up and special treatment applied beforehand.

    Won’t guarantee injury avoidance but it might help.

    All off season conditioning is voluntary by the way. Can’t force anyone to do anything.

    Make Science your friend.

    ;)

  182. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 9:10 am

    15 pounds of pork? How can you expect to be a highly conditioned dentist if you eat 15 pounds of pork. You can’t pull teeth and run a drill if you’re out of shape. You’ll get tendonitis in your tooth pulling shoulder and have to go on the DDL (dentist’s disabled list).

  183. MTU April 1st, 2012 at 9:10 am

    blake-

    You lucky devil.

    Never had the Memphis so I’d better try that one.

    Thanks for the invite.

    :)

  184. RMS April 1st, 2012 at 9:10 am

    Do pitchers who are in shape ever get shoulder tendinitis?

    Yes, Pineda came into camp overweight. Ever hear the expression “Youth is wasted on the young?”

  185. randy l. April 1st, 2012 at 9:12 am

    “Still whining about Pineda?”

    gb7-

    you seem to taking a weird position on pineda.

    you’re acting like it’s no big deal the yankee have pushed another young pitcher into an injury.

    this isn’t like boot camp where guys are run into the ground to see who makes it.

    but giving you the benefit of the doubt, what is your position on what’s happened with pineda.

    just bad luck?

  186. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 9:14 am

    BS, Randy. The Yankees had no more to do with Pineda’s injuries this spring than they did with Swisher’s, Romine’s or Jeter’s.

  187. MTU April 1st, 2012 at 9:15 am

    I’ve had shoulder tendonitis in the past.

    Did not hurt at all.

    Actualy just the opposite. A really dead feeling in the affected area.

    Like a numb feeling.

    Took anti-inflammatories for about 2 weeks and it was gone. Never figured out what caused it, and it never came back.

  188. blake April 1st, 2012 at 9:15 am

    “when a guy shows up out of shape, he should go into the fat out of shape program.”

    Lol….they should call it that too

  189. Yankee Trader April 1st, 2012 at 9:17 am

    Randy-

    I can think of many pitchers who showed up on the Yankees doorstep looking like a python that just swallowed a pig, and some of them succeeeded nevertheless!

    David Wells
    Bartolo Colon
    CC Sabathia

    And then there were some who didn’t

    Sidney Ponson

    You’ll enjoy this article:

    Yankees’ Pitchers Built for the Gridiron, at Home on the Mound
    By DAVID WALDSTEIN
    Published: February 26, 2012

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02.....wanted=all

  190. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 9:19 am

    Pitchers and ball players of all shapes, sizes, nationalities and condition get tendonitis all the time and are shut down. Blaming the teams for this is as irrational and foolish as blaming the teams for a player having appendicitis or cancer.

  191. MTU April 1st, 2012 at 9:20 am

    randy-

    One thing I definitely agree with you about is the “one size fits all approach” to things.

    I hope that is not what the Yankees employ. These are individuals and IMO they require personalized
    attention.

    Not some generic cookie-cutter approach.

    Same applies to teaching Pitching.

    What works for one guy obviously isn’t gonna work for another.

    The Wang story was a great example.

  192. J. Alfred Prufrock April 1st, 2012 at 9:21 am

    rm March 31st, 2012 at 11:58 pm
    Nick in SF March 31st, 2012 at 9:51 pm
    “when did Sanchez become better than Montero?”

    I’m sorry i didn’t that “might be better than” translated to “is better than” on this board. Sanchez has been higgly thought of since the Yankees signed him for $3 Million when he was 16 years old.

    He batted .353/.419/.597 as a 17 year old. He clearly has a high ceiling and the early reports were that he may be a better defensive player. I stand by my statement that he MIGHT BE better than Montero. But my point is that the Yankees have a lot of very good catching options and they are likely to maintain their tradition of great catching (Dickey,Yogi,Howard,Munson,Posada) because they have the resourses to do so.
    ////

    Yea anyone who follows prospects and who, in my case and a few others here – goes to see them, knows about the special bat of Sanchez.

    What he may be, in relation to Montero, is moot, since he’s not going to be ready for two years at the earliest (and perhaps, not for three)); Montero is a NOW hitter, and a guy who was in the top three of ALL BATS (not just Yankee prospects) in minor-league baseball.

    Sanchez is better than Montero defensively, so that’s not a “may be”. Still doesn’t deliver Sanchez
    contemporaneously to make the point valid.

  193. blake April 1st, 2012 at 9:22 am

    ” You’ll get tendonitis in your tooth pulling shoulder and have to go on the DDL (dentist’s disabled list).”

    Im sure Randy has a camp for fat and out of shape dentists too.

  194. randy l. April 1st, 2012 at 9:26 am

    “Pitchers and ball players of all shapes, sizes, nationalities and condition get tendonitis all the time and are shut down. Blaming the teams for this is as irrational and foolish as blaming the teams for a player having appendicitis or cancer.”

    gb7-

    it’s uncanny how when the yankees designate a kid a serious prospect and he gets their “special treatment” that the kids get injured so much.

    i think the yankees are making their own bad luck.

  195. Yankee Trader April 1st, 2012 at 9:28 am

    But this year Cashman, who is 5-7, 160 pounds, has outdone himself. In assembling a starting rotation so massive, so imposing in height and weight that no one in these parts can remember one so large, he appears intent on bringing the baseball Giants back to New York. In fact, most of the pitchers could also qualify as linemen for the football Giants.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02.....wanted=all

  196. blake April 1st, 2012 at 9:29 am

    Just from the limited amount I’ve seen him….Sanchez may have more raw power than Montero….but his swing at least right now isn’t on that level…….Montero generates incredible bat speed while staying on balance…..which is why he’s got a change to be such a good well rounded hitter….he’s like the equivalent of a pitcher that can cruise at 95 with little effort.

  197. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 9:30 am

    I guess when the yanks designate a player as special, the only way to protect them is to not play them.

  198. MTU April 1st, 2012 at 9:31 am

    YT-

    Good morning.

    Liked the article on Spahn and Marichal.

    Spahn was just an absolute horse. I was always amazed watching him. Most of all in his “old man”
    years. had an absolutely unbelievable “screwball”.

    How the heck he did not destroy his arm throwing that I will never know.

    They broke that mold.

    :(

  199. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 9:35 am

    The power is fairly equal between Sanchez and Montero. The consistency isn’t quite the same, yet. That could change this year, though if sanchez keeps the same approach he had over the last month of the 2011 season. Before that, he was trying to pull everything. somebody made an adjustment in his swing and maybe have the the balls he hit over the last stretch went to right and right center….including the majority of his homers.

  200. yankeefeminista April 1st, 2012 at 9:37 am

    Josh Norris @jnorris427
    DeAngelo Mack and Austin Krum have been cut. Trenton’s outfielders now include: The Almontes, Mesa, Johnson and Dan Brewer. @TrentonThunder

  201. J. Alfred Prufrock April 1st, 2012 at 9:37 am

    yankee21 April 1st, 2012 at 7:58 am
    If Hughes and or Nova show the ability to be a #2, #3 pitcher in 2012 and Betances really has an outstanding season at AAA, then you have the makings of two pitchers that could be packaged as part of a trade to bring back an impact bat.
    /////

    If Betances has an outstanding season, and I anticipate, barring injury, that he will – trading him would probably be about the most foolish thing they could do.

    They just traded a 22-year old monster bat because of they fancied a young RHP who throws gas. Betances has all-world stuff and throws just as hard.

    The disclaimer on him is that you can’t get to all the goodies if he can’t find the plate; if he can get back to 2010 form, the disclaimer is gone and he’s a certifiable stud. He’ll also have about 150 more IP under his belt. Trade him, after a good year, for a hitter? I don’t think so.

  202. J. Alfred Prufrock April 1st, 2012 at 9:41 am

    GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 9:35 am
    The power is fairly equal between Sanchez and Montero. The consistency isn’t quite the same, yet. That could change this year, though if sanchez keeps the same approach he had over the last month of the 2011 season. Before that, he was trying to pull everything. somebody made an adjustment in his swing and maybe have the the balls he hit over the last stretch went to right and right center….including the majority of his homers.
    ///

    I haven’t seen him since Lakewood last year, other than that nice opposite field drive in ST, which was good to see. Comparisons between the two are not unreasonable, but given his ETA, they are pointless, particularly when countering concerns for the next three Yankee seasons.

  203. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 9:41 am

    MTU April 1st, 2012 at 9:31 am
    YT-

    Good morning.

    Liked the article on Spahn and Marichal.

    Spahn was just an absolute horse. I was always amazed watching him. Most of all in his “old man”
    years. had an absolutely unbelievable “screwball”.

    How the heck he did not destroy his arm throwing that I will never know.

    They broke that mold.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Very few pitchers during that time were huge and overly muscular. Lean and lanky and a bit on the small side by today’s standards. Spahn was maybe 6 foot and 175 pounds. Almost all worked in the off-season, but, few lifted weights the way they do now. They ran more, too.Did it help/ Who knows, but, they sure as hell threw a lot more and a lot more innings.

  204. randy l. April 1st, 2012 at 9:42 am

    “I guess when the yanks designate a player as special, the only way to protect them is to not play them.”

    gb7-

    nova seemed to make it through the system quite well. maybe they should look at how they didn’t treat him special and take the same approach with the special ones.

    without looking real close, i’d say nova had to work his way every step of the way with no fast track.
    he was probably kept back rather than pushed forward.

    the result was slow steady progress, the way it should be.

    now since i haven’t taken the time to look back at nova’s whole minor league development history
    i could be dead wrong.

    let me ask this? does any young yankee pitching prospect make it through their system without significant injury?

    do other teams have prospacts that make it through the developmental process to age 25 without significant injury?

    i guess we’ll have to define significant injury too.

  205. Yankee Trader April 1st, 2012 at 9:43 am

    Pruf-

    Betances is going nowhere. The Yankees need him to complete their offenive line. :)

    Across the front line is C. C. Sabathia, who is listed at 6-7 and said he came into camp weighing roughly 290 pounds. His new locker partner and fellow leviathan is Michael Pineda, who also checks in at 6-7 and said he weighs 280. Ivan Nova is listed at 6-4, 225; Phil Hughes is 6-5, 240; Freddy Garcia, whose broad shoulders and boxlike frame seem to fill up the doorway, is listed at 6-4, 250.

    Finally, there is the newcomer Hiroki Kuroda, who at 6-1 and 190 provides experience and savvy, as well as a control case to bring down the average size of the six current starters to a more manageable 6-42/3, 245.8 pounds. And that does not include the 6-8, 260-pound Dellin Betances, who is most likely headed to the minor leagues for now.

    “I never felt so small before I walked in here,” Kuroda said through his interpreter. “If these guys ever came to Japan, everyone would be overwhelmed.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02.....wanted=all

  206. J. Alfred Prufrock April 1st, 2012 at 9:43 am

    yankeefeminista April 1st, 2012 at 9:37 am
    Josh Norris @jnorris427
    DeAngelo Mack and Austin Krum have been cut. Trenton’s outfielders now include: The Almontes, Mesa, Johnson and Dan Brewer. @TrentonThunder
    ////

    Not much to mourn, there. I’m also looking forward to an upgrade – by default, if nothing else – of that infield :D .

  207. J. Alfred Prufrock April 1st, 2012 at 9:44 am

    Yankee Trader April 1st, 2012 at 9:43 am
    Pruf-

    Betances is going nowhere. The Yankees need him to complete their offenive line.
    ////

    CC definitely is the nose guard :D .

  208. Villa Nova-Ya April 1st, 2012 at 9:45 am

    Randy l -

    I don’t see where there has to be any polarization at all.

    FYI I advocated sending Hughes, Joba to AAA, but could follow the line of thinking that the Yankees used. With Hughes, in 2007, there were a lot of pitchers called into service before he was. The Yankees had an unprecedent collapse in April of 2007 as far as their pitching went. I mean, Carl Pavano was the opening day pitcher, for crying out loud. Cashman waited as long as he could, given the mandate of not falling 20 games out of first place in the first month of the season, and yes, I exaggerate just a little.

    Hughes was pitching well. He pulled a hamstring while pitching a no-hitter. He did not hurt his arm. I think it has been argued that the excitement of the moment and his mental unpreparedness for such a situation caused him to overstride, and that the Yankees should have been aware somehow that this could happen.

    Joba was actually humming merrily along when he got injured in August of 2008, and that was a freak thing wasn’t it? When Ivan Rodriguez threw to second or something (forgive my hazy memory).

    Joba also allowed himself to get out of shape in 2009. I recall Pat M talking about having a great seat behind homeplate in Anaheim and he was aghast at how bad Joba looked physically.

    And Wang’s situation is incredibly sad. And is the only one that I will say they missed the boat on once ST began. But not knowing the conversations and details as intimately as the Yankees did, I still reserve judgment to some extent.

    I will agree to the extent that MAYBE if a player shows up in camp in less than optimal condition, perhaps there should be a program that puts emphasis on getting “in shape” first before starting whatever regular ST program there is. But name me one other team that does that?

    And, forgive me, Randy, but you have a history of blaming the Yankees for everything that goes wrong with any one of their players, going back to Giambi’s plantar fasciitis.

    Could they do some things better? Absolutely – can’t most of us??? But I can’t agree that they ar as highly negligent as you consistently say they are.

  209. yankeefeminista April 1st, 2012 at 9:49 am

    J. Alfred Prufrock April 1st, 2012 at 9:43 am
    yankeefeminista April 1st, 2012 at 9:37 am
    Josh Norris @jnorris427
    DeAngelo Mack and Austin Krum have been cut. Trenton’s outfielders now include: The Almontes, Mesa, Johnson and Dan Brewer. @TrentonThunder
    ////

    Not much to mourn, there. I’m also looking forward to an upgrade – by default, if nothing else – of that infield .
    ____
    Definitely by default, not much there, I’m afraid. Shaeffer Hall should start OD, Marshall on Saturday, I believe which I unfortunately can’t attend. So, if you go would love to hear a report.

  210. MTU April 1st, 2012 at 9:50 am

    GB-

    Building endurance is extreemly important.

    Sometimes people get strength and endurance mixed up.

    Lot’s of reps with lighter weights and isometrics to build internal muscle strength might be more important than sheer bulk for a Pitcher.

    In could be argued that the bulk is actually counter-productive since flexibilty is absolutely essential as well.

    Doesn’t mean you can’t be muscular and flexible but I think it has to be within limits to work.

    Places like API design programs specifically for pitchers.

  211. Yankee Trader April 1st, 2012 at 9:52 am

    Villa-

    Thank you!

    All players show up at ST and are checked out by team doctors and health professionals before they begin their workouts. They have daily meetings to discuss nutrition, PED’s, etc.

    There is not a one size fits all approach practiced anymore.

  212. J. Alfred Prufrock April 1st, 2012 at 9:54 am

    blake April 1st, 2012 at 9:29 am
    Just from the limited amount I’ve seen him….Sanchez may have more raw power than Montero….but his swing at least right now isn’t on that level…….Montero generates incredible bat speed while staying on balance…..which is why he’s got a change to be such a good well rounded hitter….he’s like the equivalent of a pitcher that can cruise at 95 with little effort.
    ///

    I agree, based on Lakewood at least, and video of Sanchez. You wouldn’t believe the backlash I received, though (on second thought – maybe you would), to have suggested, on another blog, that he’s not as well disposed to hit for average like Montero. It’s like, Montero now has leper status, and you’d have thought I said Sanchez was some kind of mirage who would bust. On the contrary, I am nearly excited about Sanchez’s upside as I was about Montero’s. He was in my off limits Top Four (B’s, JM, GS).

    That aside, there’s encouraging commentary all over the place that Sanchez has made adjustments. Optimally, he hits for power and high average. When I saw him, he had the quickness and the thump.

  213. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 9:58 am

    yankeefeminista April 1st, 2012 at 9:37 am
    Josh Norris @jnorris427
    DeAngelo Mack and Austin Krum have been cut. Trenton’s outfielders now include: The Almontes, Mesa, Johnson and Dan Brewer. @TrentonThunder

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    YF,

    Did they release Mack and Krum or just reassign them back to Tampa? Krum, has slipped back the past two years and Ray Kruml is the same player, but, Mack is a surprise. He had pretty decent years. Not great, but, he offered a little of everything.

  214. Yankee Trader April 1st, 2012 at 9:58 am

    GB-

    I’m jealous. From Pinstripe Alley:

    The Yankees’ A-ball affiliate, the Charleston Riverdogs, announced their 2012 roster. Considering the top prospects that will be playing for them (Gary Sanchez, Mason Williams, Dante Bichette Jr., Jose Campos), it would be a treat to be able to see them. If you’re down in the area, I would highly recommend it.

  215. J. Alfred Prufrock April 1st, 2012 at 9:59 am

    Definitely by default, not much there, I’m afraid. Shaeffer Hall should start OD, Marshall on Saturday, I believe which I unfortunately can’t attend. So, if you go would love to hear a report.
    ///

    Can’t go because of Easter weekend commitments. Well, theoretically I could, but I risk being viewed as a deserter ;) . Probably skip OD, too. Sitting through the gimmicks and pony show is not worth it for Shaeffer Hall, and as it is, I’ll have to pick my spots, OD at NYS being one.

  216. yankeefeminista April 1st, 2012 at 9:59 am

    Sanchez has a very special bat, but the thing is that people are prescribing to him in A- ball what they refuse to concede to Montero because Montero is a “minor leaguer” in spite of the latter having hit in AAA and the majors. It is confirmation bias when people argue that Sanchez is better already than Montero. Hey, they are both going to be pretty damn good, regardless of some fan’s agenda. lol.

  217. yankeefeminista April 1st, 2012 at 10:02 am

    Pruf, I am likely going to LHV, hoping it’s Betances. But wouldn’t mind spying on Toronto’s AA (Fisher Cats) at Trenton, and Portland (Boston’s AA)who comes in next week. So, probably will go to the day game to see the latter, as well.

  218. MTU April 1st, 2012 at 10:05 am

    YF-

    Are you bringing your radar gun or are you just gonna eyeball it.

    ;)

  219. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 10:05 am

    Yankee Trader April 1st, 2012 at 9:58 am
    GB-

    I’m jealous. From Pinstripe Alley:

    The Yankees’ A-ball affiliate, the Charleston Riverdogs, announced their 2012 roster. Considering the top prospects that will be playing for them (Gary Sanchez, Mason Williams, Dante Bichette Jr., Jose Campos), it would be a treat to be able to see them. If you’re down in the area, I would highly recommend it.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Trader, I’ll be there, but, maybe not as much as I’d like to be. The expense of the drive and the cost of working on the house will cut into that. The friend I used to go to Charleston with, passed away, so, the less time consumming and less expensive travel cost by using his boat will play a large part. I’ll still make the games in Savannah, though..at least.

  220. blake April 1st, 2012 at 10:05 am

    JAP,

    I haven’t seen Sanchez enough to probably accurately comment on him….but just in the few ABs I’ve seen…..he swings really hard….but so hard that he doesn’t always stay balanced……that’s what’s special about Montero…..he can swing really hard….create a ton of bat speed just with his normal swing…….that’s rare……Sanchez is an exciting guy…..he hit more homers than Harper did last year at the same age and level…so we will see where it goes.

  221. NYYanksFan April 1st, 2012 at 10:07 am

    Pineda can take a 6 week course in How To Get Ready For The Season with Professor Andy Pettitte. I see lots of stair running and sprints in his future.

  222. blake April 1st, 2012 at 10:07 am

    Gotta run….good discussion….Sunday mornings have always been the sweet spot at Lohud.

  223. yankeefeminista April 1st, 2012 at 10:08 am

    YF,

    Did they release Mack and Krum or just reassign them back to Tampa? Krum, has slipped back the past two years and Ray Kruml is the same player, but, Mack is a surprise. He had pretty decent years. Not great, but, he offered a little of everything.
    _____
    Norris has them as being cut, which kind of surprised me, but Mack is 25 already and Tampa is loaded. Yeah, Krum and Kruml are very similar, when they were both in AA it was hard to keep who was who straight. ;) OF for Tampa right now is listed as: Flores, Sosa, Segedin, Shane Brown, Medchill.

  224. Yankee Trader April 1st, 2012 at 10:08 am

    Till later all.

    In today’s column, Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe ranks every manager in the majors, one through 30. Cafardo’s top five skippers in the game for 2012 are Joe Maddon (Rays), Jim Leyland (Tigers), Mike Scioscia (Angels), Charlie Manuel (Phillies), and Joe Girardi (Yankees).

    No Fooling. Enjoy April Fools Day! :)

  225. RadioKev April 1st, 2012 at 10:09 am

    Anyone read the NYTimes baseball piece this morning? Good little read on finding an edge in the game. I realized that the Yankees must have metric or analysis for “make up” and value it highly, with two #1 picks in consecutive years based on make up.

  226. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Sanchez has the strength and bat speed. he just got in bad habits like pulling everything. He’s not Jeter with power, but, he does go with the pitches a lot more. still, gotta love those 3 bombs he hit in greenville last summer. They were Mantlesque in length and majesty.

  227. J. Alfred Prufrock April 1st, 2012 at 10:11 am

    blake April 1st, 2012 at 8:05 am
    “Alex Gordon signed an extension with KC. Another potential bat off the market. Offense is getting locked up all over MLB.”

    Offense is easier to find than pitching remember
    ///

    Not sure how they can so misread what is a clear trend in baseball and still be thought of as a savvy organization. After all, reports about the ‘why’ of the trade attributed the idea that you can just replace offense, to the Yankees.

  228. Yankee Trader April 1st, 2012 at 10:12 am

    In case you want to read the article:

    http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....?page=full

  229. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 10:14 am

    Thanks for the update on the Mack and Krum situation, Fellow Fanboy…errr….fangirl/prospect hugger.

  230. randy l. April 1st, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Could they do some things better? Absolutely – can’t most of us??? But I can’t agree that they ar as highly negligent as you consistently say they are.”"

    villa nova ya-

    you’re just repeating the party line.

    i don’t mention “rushing” on every yankee pitcher, but when i do, bad things have happened.

    i did say before the injuries that hughes, joba, wang ,and pineda were rushed.

    how do i guess so correctly ?

    i guess i could just be lucky.

    if you take the position that it’s juts luck and all young pitchers are at risk for career altering injuries at all times and four for four is just par for the course then that opens up the door to why did the yankees trade for a 23 year old pitcher who by your belief system will likely be injured soon into the process.

    why not keep the everyday player who has a much better chance of having a full career.
    i’m not trying to open that door, but you can’t have it both ways.

    if it’s not the yankees fault, then it’s just the risk inherent in young pitchers that the yankees last four significant prospects have all had serious injuries.

    if that’s the case, why trade montero for one of these high risk guys?

  231. RadioKev April 1st, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Good offense is still easier to acquire than good starting pitching. That’s not to say good young hitting is more available than good young pitching – but older quality hitting still seems more attainable with $ than good older pitching. Look at guys like Chavez and Jones. Or Damon. Or any number of veteran bats.

    I’d take the older vet bat over the older vet arm.

  232. Crawdaddy April 1st, 2012 at 10:16 am

    GB7,

    Good job calling out Randie with his obvious agenda.

  233. yankeefeminista April 1st, 2012 at 10:16 am

    MTU, gun and eyeballing FTW. ;)

    Sanchez is supposedly no longer pulling everything; as per continuing the progress he made last year in the stretch drive. He is one of the rare few that you can’t help but notice and be excited about. #preternaturalbat

  234. GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 10:18 am

    Jack Curry ? @JackCurryYES

    In Miami 4 baseball. Just saw Mike Tyson on elevator. Told him I liked Centerstage interview w @RealMichaelKay. He smiled and shook my hand

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    wonder if Curry was concerned when Tyson looked longingly at his ears?

  235. yankeefeminista April 1st, 2012 at 10:18 am

    GreenBeret7 April 1st, 2012 at 10:14 am
    Thanks for the update on the Mack and Krum situation, Fellow Fanboy…errr….fangirl/prospect hugger.
    ____
    Right back at ya, fanboy. ;)

  236. J. Alfred Prufrock April 1st, 2012 at 10:21 am

    Good for Carfardo. The man is a house plant.

    I saw John Harper was being held up around here as some kind of baseball savant.

    I’ve known Harper since he was trying to get a foothold as a reporter since the late 80′s, when he worked at a paper called the Morristown Daily Record, which was based, at the time, in Parsippany, New Jersey. Using his opinions to champion a viewpoint, and stepping back in anticipation of some kind of triumphant pop, is comical.

  237. MTU April 1st, 2012 at 10:24 am

    new thread —->

  238. yankeefeminista April 1st, 2012 at 10:25 am

    :arrow: :)

  239. randy l. April 1st, 2012 at 10:29 am

    “Good job calling out Randie with his obvious agenda.”

    crawdaddy-

    gb7 and i don’t call out each other on anything because there is a mutual respect there.

    it looks to me that you’re the one with the agenda.

    you come back on not to give your opinion about pineda, but to attempt to rag on me.

    what is your opinion on pineda by the way ?

    what’s next?


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