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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


“The dangerous thing about this time of year”

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 31, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Yankees asked Michael Pineda several times this spring whether his arm was sore. They knew his velocity was down, and they wanted to make sure he felt OK. It wasn’t until last night, after he’d been taken out of the game, that Pineda mentioned tightness in his right shoulder.

“That can be the danger of when you have competitions,” manager Joe Girardi said. “That maybe someone doesn’t say something and there’s something bothering them a little bit.”

Two innings after Pineda exited, Cesar Cabral pitched through a scoreless inning. He only admitted afterward that his elbow was in significant pain.

“He didn’t let on either,” Girardi said. “He finished the inning. That’s the dangerous thing about this time of year. That’s the true danger, because everyone’s trying to make a team. It’s what you dream about as a little kid, what you do all the work for.”

The Yankees don’t know how long Pineda’s been feeling this soreness in his shoulder, but it certainly could explain the diminished velocity, and it certainly could keep him from opening the season in the big league rotation. The team is confident that Cabral never felt any pain until last night, but obviously there’s now significant concern about his elbow.

“There’s a competitive nature in every one of them or they wouldn’t be here,” Girardi said. “That’s part of the game. That’s what makes them successful. That’s how athletes push through things, and sometimes you don’t know the difference between stiffness and soreness and maybe being hurt.”

Two MRI’s this morning will know the difference, and they could have a significant impact on the pitching staff that heads to Tropicana Field in six days.

Associated Press photo

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313 Responses to ““The dangerous thing about this time of year””

  1. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:57 am

    Chad-

    Are the MRI’s being done in Tampa, and will the team orthopedist be looking at them today.

  2. jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 8:59 am

    Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 8:26 am
    Blake-

    It was reported yesterday what Pineda’s average fastball velocity was in all his starts last season. Wasn’t it only significantly down his last start of the season and even then a tick below 92?

    Yes, his velocity decline last year has been blown out of proportion here. There was only a slight decline. His fastball averaged 95 last year, and he didn’t start at an average of 100.

    And his weight “problem” is overblown here also. 10-20 pounds on a sturdy 6’7? frame is nothing. CC is more overweight and he slimmed down this year. It’s a matter of strength, not svelte.

  3. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 9:01 am

    Also, what measures do the Yankees have when they trade or sign a new player in the offseason, that not only eases their transition to be playing for the NYY, but lists resources available to them for offseason conditioning, as well as what is expected of them when they show up for ST?

  4. jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 9:02 am

    DavidWaldstein Michael Pineda just left for his MRI. Said he was ‘t scared about the results, but acknowledged being nervous, “a little bit.” 10 minutes ago

  5. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:08 am

    Take a look at the top photo of Pineda on the previous page taken during the game and in full motion. Does he look like he’s in pain or distress? What ever happened, happened during the game and after that photo was taken.

  6. austinmac March 31st, 2012 at 9:09 am

    I watched a bit of Darvish last night. He was very impressive with 11 Ks. He now has 31 Ks in 19 innings. He is one that got away because of the new finances. Many more will follow.

  7. mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:09 am

    A pitcher lie to his Mgr? No. That could never happen.
    I had a conversation last night here about this and someone said they believe Pineda.
    When I asked Why? they did not answer.
    Believe what you want, anybody could see he was in pain out there, begging to come out.
    I’m sure Girardi and Rothschild saw this.
    Girardi was obviously pained when speaking to Coney during the in-game interview.

    Maybe they should be on the hot seat this year…

  8. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 9:10 am

    With regards to Cabral, what happens with him if his injury requires the DL. Does he still have to go on waivers as a second time Rule 5? After he comes off the DL?

  9. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 9:12 am

    It’s really a catch-22 of sorts. A team really does have to be clear that spots in the rotation are open. And in this case, unless a player is really dumb, they see 3 spots, 5 guys – I have to show them my best, without the team saying a thing.

    And the culture in baseball is to play through soreness.

    I’d also have to think that a lot of these guys have developed quite a large threshold for pain, so that their interpretation of exactly what they are feeling is skewed, unless it is agonizing. My goodness, Joba was surprised he needed TJ!

  10. austinmac March 31st, 2012 at 9:13 am

    YT,

    I read that the Yankees can have Cabral in 2013 if he is not active for at least 90 days this season.

  11. mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:16 am

    If not for the Hal to Cash to Girardi triple play combo, I’d say they brought Pinella around the team for a reason.
    Only thing , Hal doesn’t have the fire of his old man and wouldn’t pull the trigger.
    It will take a long time before his profits go down.
    In fact, they will be going up…

    We can all connect these dots.

  12. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:18 am

    Hey all. It’s been snowing in RI.

    I don’t have a clue about who should have known what so I can’t begin to pretend I know where to assess blame. I do know that I am furious about this competition thing and the big who-ha about last night’s game being so critical to life. I can’t imagine the stress that put on Pineda, who’s been under the spotlight all ST and of course overjudged and overanalyzed but the press, the fans, and everyone else.

    I don’t agree with G. Love’s take or anyone else’s who can’t separate themselves from the trade itself. While you may disagree with the way the Yankees choose to use their DH position, it’s a fact that they have veterans who aren’t too far away from occupying that position. All of the posters who have criticized the trade because the Yanks didn’t sign Montero as permanent DH have never given their solution to what happens to big offense players with huge contracts who will not be playing their positions forever, you know, the way Posada didn’t play his position forever. It may cut like a knife that Montero was traded, but the organization evaluated their needs and didn’t fit him into the equation. It’s life. You may hate their decision, but it doesn’t mean it was the wrong decision. It isn’t like they have EVER used the DH position for a super-strong bat and it isn’t like they are a young team with nobody on their way to use it.

    **********

    When I think of the way the fans booed Pineda last night, and the look on his face and the report of his eyes being wet, I could break down and cry. Nobody deserves to be treated that way, let alone a young kid from another country who didn’t ask to be here but was trying to please everybody and answer the on-going criticism and the huge responsibility placed on his shoulders. I just pray that he’s okay and that there is SOMEONE in that organization mentoring his soul and psyche. This is a different place with the Boss gone, that’s for sure. I don’t know if anyone nurtures the players who need nurturing anymore. (see: Joba)

  13. mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:19 am

    He wasn’t touching or rubbing his shoulder or trying to manipulate it like he couldn’t get loose? Those are “red flags” that you can see.
    ==========================
    You must have been napping.

  14. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:20 am

    jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 8:59 am

    Good post.

  15. mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:21 am

    Take a look at the top photo of Pineda on the previous page taken during the game and in full motion. Does he look like he’s in pain or distress?
    ==============================
    Absurd.

  16. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 9:24 am

    It’s my expert opinion that the Yankees put some extra green in Pineda’s paycheck to take one for the team.

    That way Joe and Cash will avoid taking the heat for an unpopular choice in the rotation.

  17. yankee21 March 31st, 2012 at 9:24 am

    I didn’t get a chance to watch Pineda last night but in reading all the discussion and hearing Cashman’s comments, a few things stand out:

    1. What the hell was Girardi and Rothschild doing in the dugout while it was clear to everyone watching that something was wrong with Pineda’s arm slot, mechanics, velocity etc? Were they expecting him to suddenly regain his form and his velocity in the 2, 3rd inning?

    2. Also, what did Joe G expect Pineda to do when he said this start was important? Did he not envision a scenario that Pineda will try to air it out even if it results in damaging his shoulder. Does he not realize Pineda is 23 years old and doesn’t know his body yet like a veteran would? Is Joe G really that freaking stupid?

    I do not trust Cashman nor Girardi to make quality decisions and I do not sense Hal has the passion to be in this business and build a consistent champion-ship caliber team. I believe he is positioning it for an ultimate sale and his mandate is to control costs at all levels while spinning to the fans that it is all about winning. As a businessman I under that but as a fan I cannot cheer nor support that.

    At some point fans are going to sense this is a big charade by Hal and fans will stop coming to the games. I doubt it happens this year as NY has too many horses, but if Arod is on the shelf for any length of time and if Tex hits RHP like he has the last two years and there is no offense, fans will start getting reckless and looking for other ways to spend a summer night in NY rather than shelling out $40 for a parking ticket and watching Raul freaking Ibanez flail away.

  18. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 9:25 am

    “Yes, his velocity decline last year has been blown out of proportion here.”

    The decline from last year to this spring has been precipitous, severe, drastic etc.

    The reason’s I read “working on CU”, “building arm strength” “not important for ST” etc.

    Now some of us have been expressing concern over his innings jump and his past injury. For the most part we were dismissed as being “Monteroistas” with an axe to grind.

    I for one am rooting hard for this kid to succeed. Everyone who is a good fan is. The alternative is just asinine.

    But if something is painfully, obviously wrong to us layman (CB has numerous excellent posts on the subject last night) why didn’t the Yankees step in and find out what the real deal is? I hope I’m wrong, (and there is a valid reason) but at first glance It seems like an obvious case of incompetence, from the top down.

    I know wait to see what the MRI says: well even if it turns out he is perfectly ok, all that means is the Yankees got incredibly lucky.

    Good Luck to you Michael, hope to see you pitching again soon.

  19. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:26 am

    VN,

    I said it last night. There is a considerable difference between pitching or playing with soreness and pitching or playing with pain. I’m not buying that Pineda doesn’t know the difference because of his age. Warren, Phelphs and 21 year old Brett Marshall knew the difference last year. If Pineda was pitching in pain and didn’t mention it, that’s as much on him or moreso than anyone else. They can talk all they want to about him pitching for a spot, but he was outpitching Nova by a large amount and better than Garcia or Sabathia.

    The constant whining and finger pointing over that trade and last night isn’t something you’d expect from the “most intelligent baseball fans” in the country. More like a bunch of whining and petulent spoiled brats. I find it hard to believe that any of them are older than 12 years of age.

  20. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 9:27 am

    1. What the hell was Girardi and Rothschild doing in the dugout

    —————————————————————————

    Eating chicken and drinking beer.

  21. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:31 am

    I pray that all works out well with the MRI – I am imagining that it will.

    When people want to get down on the organization for this and that, remember that they are totally aware of the unbelievable scrutiny and demand for immediate velocity (or this trade is a bust… :roll: ) thrown out by the press as well as the always understanding and patient fan base, ha.

    If I wish the organization had done anything differently it would be that they told the press and the rest of you vultures (if the shoe fits) to take a fast hike and just dealt with Pineda whatever way they had to, even if it meant gently explaining to him that he needed to be at AAA to build up his arm strength. I keep saying it, but there is no way this would have happened the way it did if the Boss was still around. He was filled with compassion and understanding and would have worried about and done what was best for the player, not buckled under the pressure of the know-it-all media and inconsolable fan base.

    I never thought it would happen but I sure no longer recognize the Yankee organization or even begin to know who actually is running the show. But someone sure needs guidance there IMO. It feels like a ship without a rudder.

    All of that said, I still believe the trade was the right thing for the organization, some fan wishes notwithstanding. And I don’t think Pineda’s career is over. He’s everything CB noted and more.

  22. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:32 am

    Tar March 31st, 2012 at 9:25 am
    “Yes, his velocity decline last year has been blown out of proportion here.”

    The decline from last year to this spring has been precipitous, severe, drastic etc.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Did you read about Boston’s compensation pick for Epstein? Passed his physical, reported to camp, went through some training, said his elbow hurt and had surgery on his arm for bone spurs. Now, boston wants to return him for someone different.

  23. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 9:33 am

    When I think of the way the fans booed Pineda last night,

    —————————-

    Are you sure they weren’t saying Choo for Carlos Ruiz?

  24. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 9:33 am

    Yankee Trader March 30th, 2012 at 8:03 pm
    Something is wrong. Grimacing.
    ——————————————–

    Sorry, but Mick and others that say it was obvious he was hurt, there were no posts to that effect before mine or even soon therafter. I’m not trying to brag, but it’s easy to claim after the fact that everyone should have noticed it before 8:03 or soon afterward.

  25. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:35 am

    Some of these idiots need to go be Mets fans. Then, they’d have something to whine about.

  26. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 9:36 am

    “Did you read about Boston’s compensation pick for Epstein?”

    GB

    I wish the player a speedy recovery. But I have to admit chuckling when I read that.

  27. mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:37 am

    Just like Woodson replaced D’Antoni while sitting next to him on the bench all year, watch out for the Lou Pinella rumors to surface if this team gets off to a bad start.

  28. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 9:39 am

    GB7

    Later on I’m going to go find Bullwinkle and consult with him on what the Yankees should do.

  29. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 9:39 am

    “Are you sure they weren’t saying Choo for Carlos Ruiz?”

    Seriously, I’d like to believe that they were. Maybe that is what happened. I will say that the Tampa ST crowd never seemed like a bunch of animals, so maybe that is what happened. If it is, I sure hope that Pineda knew that or someone explained it to him.

    It reminded me of what the scumbag Bronx fanbase put LeTroy Hawkins through just because he was assigned Paul O’Neil’s number. I swear that when something like that happens I sit and wish that every one of the a-holes doing that stuff has something bad happen to them as punishment for totally mistreating another human being. Some negative karma right in their faces. (Certainly nothing like death or injury but something they’re forced to deal with for being animals.)

  30. mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:39 am

    Sorry, but Mick and others that say it was obvious he was hurt,
    =========================================
    Surely you don’t think I’m lying too?
    It was very obvious to the naked eye he was uncomfortable out there.
    Do we always have to state the obvious in here?
    Some of us were actually watching the game and not pontificating about “the Trade”, in relation to this kid’s making the team.

  31. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:41 am

    Tar March 31st, 2012 at 9:36 am
    “Did you read about Boston’s compensation pick for Epstein?”

    GB

    I wish the player a speedy recovery. But I have to admit chuckling when I read that.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    The bone spurs are painful just to move. It shows up in the joints, like ankle, foot, knee, elbow or shoulder. It doesn’t just happen all of a sudden. It’s a growth on the bone. Easily taken care of but, it requires surgery. Left to grow, it starts cutting or digging into the tissue.

  32. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 9:42 am

    Yea what happened to Hawkins was brutal. I couldn’t believe how bad it became.

  33. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 9:43 am

    Young pitchers present a very high risk, maybe one day the people who run this team will stop taking unnecessary risks.

  34. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:43 am

    MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 9:39 am
    GB7

    Later on I’m going to go find Bullwinkle and consult with him on what the Yankees should do.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Shoot that squirrel and get his own show.

  35. mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:43 am

    Yankee mngmnt screwed the pooch on the Hawkins thing as well.
    O’Neill was beloved.

  36. RMS March 31st, 2012 at 9:44 am

    Hopefully there is nothing seriously wrong with Pineda’s arm.

    This is why a team cannot ever have enough pitching.

  37. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:44 am

    Unnecessary risks? Like letting pitching pitchers and letting hitters hit?

  38. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 9:44 am

    “Sorry, but Mick and others that say it was obvious he was hurt, there were no posts to that effect before mine or even soon thereafter.”

    YT

    Props to you. I remember reading your post.

    I wouldn’t even say it was obvious that he was hurt, but that something was wrong. And that goes back to his start before last night. Something wasn’t right and it should have been obvious to the Yankees. And I also agree with the pressure that was put on him for the start last night, not necessary.

    Or maybe it was just an incredible coincidence that many of us commented on it, and now turns out we were right hmmm.

  39. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:44 am

    ****letting pitchers pitch****

  40. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 9:45 am

    This is why a team cannot ever have enough pitching.
    -

    No, it is why you never overpay for it.

  41. mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:45 am

    Hawkins wanted that #.
    Some times you have to say NO to your children.
    Somebody whisper that in Joba’s ear too.

  42. 86w183 March 31st, 2012 at 9:47 am

    Who is this kind, benevolent caring “Boss” you guys are referring to?

    It sure as hell isn’t/wasn’t George M. Steinbrenner. That “Boss” was a mean-spirited, vindictive bully who cowered employees and brow beat players with public humiliation. You’ve heard of Ed Whitson, Dave Winfield, Hedeki Irabu et al haven’t.

    Stop dreaming about the “good old days” of the nurturing, caring “Boss”. Those days never existed.

    If “The Boss” had not been suspended, the 1996-2001 stretch never happens because Derek Jeter would have been traded for Gorman Thomas or some other over the hill veteran.

  43. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 9:47 am

    Maine

    Speaking of Bullwinkle I watched your show last night. Was that Randy they arrested early on ? :shock:

  44. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 9:49 am

    Of course the Boss never took unnecssary risk.

  45. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 9:49 am

    Unnecessary risks means you do not trade hitters with impact potential for pitchers under 26, which is the the age until which pitchers are more susceptible to injury. This isn’t hindsight, many of us made this point in our opposition to the trade on the day it was made.

  46. mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:50 am

    86w183

    Some here don’t know about that Boss.
    One thing though….he was impetuous.
    No Mr Nice Guys would run his team.
    He would confront them and hold them accountable.
    Wonder what he would have said and done if this kid is ruined because of last night?

  47. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 9:50 am

    Who is this kind, benevolent caring “Boss” you guys are referring to?

    It sure as hell isn’t/wasn’t George M. Steinbrenner. That “Boss” was a mean-spirited, vindictive bully who cowered employees and brow beat players with public humiliation. You’ve heard of Ed Whitson, Dave Winfield, Hedeki Irabu et al haven’t.

    ——————
    Boy, aint that the truth. This is the guy that fired the entire scouting staff because “they were making too much money”.

  48. vinny-b March 31st, 2012 at 9:50 am

    “If not for the Hal to Cash to Girardi triple play combo, I’d say they brought Pinella around the team for a reason.
    Only thing , Hal doesn’t have the fire of his old man and wouldn’t pull the trigger.
    It will take a long time before his profits go down.
    In fact, they will be going up…

    We can all connect these dots.”
    ————————————–

    you’re nuts

  49. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 9:50 am

    Tar March 31st, 2012 at 9:47 am
    Maine

    Speaking of Bullwinkle I watched your show last night. Was that Randy they arrested early on ?

    ——————————————

    No, he’s too mean. It might be one of his cousins.

  50. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:51 am

    I didn’t see enough of Pineda last year to notice if he threw over the top or not, so, I don’t know whether he threw the same as he is now or not. After the showed a slow motion shot of his when his hand was about even with his head did it not look like other pitchers, where the fingers were more on the side of the ball. Don’t recall if he was strictly over the top or not. I seriously doubt that many of the LoHud pitching coaches know it either.

  51. mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:52 am

    you’re nuts
    —————-
    that’s all ya got?
    care to expound?

  52. Stoneburner March 31st, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 9:50 am
    Who is this kind, benevolent caring “Boss” you guys are referring to?

    It sure as hell isn’t/wasn’t George M. Steinbrenner. That “Boss” was a mean-spirited, vindictive bully who cowered employees and brow beat players with public humiliation. You’ve heard of Ed Whitson, Dave Winfield, Hedeki Irabu et al haven’t.

    ********

    In many – the Boss Stein lives on with this blog – because most of the outbursts and criticisms against Cashman, Girardi, Pineda, Rothschild, etc. are exactly the kind of comments he would make from his “owner’s box.” The legacy of the Boss is the spoiled reactions of certain members of the fan base – exemplified on this blog.

  53. Villa Nova-Ya March 31st, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Trisha,

    Did they really boo him off the mound in a spring training game????

    Oh, man, that is just too awful.

  54. yankee21 March 31st, 2012 at 9:54 am

    I imagine even Joe G and Cashman have to be thinking the injury and/or velocity concerns with Pineda likely mean the 5 starters going north with the club are now obvious.

    The question becomes do they carry a long man and if so, who is it? DJ? Phelps?

    They need to find a way to turn Maxwell either into a Yankee to start the season or get something of value for him. Alone, he won’t fetch much if anything but as part of a package he has to be appealing enough for some team to take him back and surrender something NY could use down the road.

  55. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 9:54 am

    Tribute to LOHUD, an ongoing obituary for the late Michael Pineda

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhWBA2lab_M

  56. RMS March 31st, 2012 at 9:54 am

    No, it is why you never overpay for it

    ——————————————————————————————————
    What are you talking about? Never overpay? Like the Yankees never have before?

    Pitchers get hurt, it happens to a lot of teams.

  57. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:55 am

    Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 9:49 am
    Unnecessary risks means you do not trade hitters with impact potential for pitchers under 26, which is the the age until which pitchers are more susceptible to injury. This isn’t hindsight, many of us made this point in our opposition to the trade on the day it was made.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    Of course, there’s no unnecessary risks involved in being a catcher, is there?

  58. Stoneburner March 31st, 2012 at 9:57 am

    Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 9:49 am
    Unnecessary risks means you do not trade hitters with impact potential for pitchers under 26, which is the the age until which pitchers are more susceptible to injury. This isn’t hindsight, many of us made this point in our opposition to the trade on the day it was made.

    *******

    Ahhhh the Matt Garza for Delmon Young trade is calling . . . . .

    Remember – there are no absolutes

    Remember – a trade cannot be evaluated until sufficient time has passed to evaluate

    Remember. . . .

  59. mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:57 am

    The problem with this team is that they are not hungry.
    They were hungry for a title in their 1st year in the new Stadium and won it.
    Tex, Arod and dare I say it, the Capt., are not on the mission they once were on.
    They have done it all, won it all.
    I hope I am wrong but I just don’t feel it.

  60. DONNYBROOK March 31st, 2012 at 9:58 am

    Pineda’s weight is NOT a physical issue, it’s a “between the ears” issue. The Kid had just been traded to THE NEW YORK YANKEES, and he proceeds to show up for ST at Least 15 lbs Overweight. He’s a Kid, obviously used poor judgement, and hopefully is learning as he goes. We have All gone through this 1st hand, and 2nd hand via offspring. Pineda needs a Mentor, especially amidst the NY Glare. Pineda’s concern\worry about the shoulder soreness, tells me he has Not experienced this previously. Hopefully, this will be nothing more than another step in his learning process. To this point, Pineda showing up overweight, loss of MPH, and possibly being “shut down”, mirror Hughes at about this same time last season. It’s Fun to follow budding young players, but we are witnessing the trials and tribulations that must Also be endured as these kids learn the ropes.

  61. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 9:58 am

    GB7

    Ask the Twins how that Mauer contract looks now.

  62. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:59 am

    Some people play those connect the dot puzzles and the picture is supposed to be a tree and they come up with an elephant. Mick is one of those types.

  63. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:00 am

    It’s Fun to follow budding young players, but we are witnessing the trials and tribulations that must Also be endured as these kids learn the ropes.
    =============================
    Don’t forget the tremendous pressure he is under being the man traded away for Montero.

  64. 86w183 March 31st, 2012 at 10:00 am

    Pineda did look uncomfortable to me, but big guys often do, especially early in games.

    Hopefully its just some inflammation and he can take 10 days off and start building back up. That would give Hughes, Nova and Garcia time to stake their claim and/or enhance their trade value.

    My guess is Nova is traded in a package for a young corner OF before June.

  65. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:00 am

    Some people play those connect the dot puzzles and the picture is supposed to be a tree and they come up with an elephant. Mick is one of those types.
    ====================================
    What does that mean?

  66. randy l. March 31st, 2012 at 10:01 am

    “Hey all. It’s been snowing in RI.”

    damn, i planted pansies in my gallery window boxes yesterday.

    but pansies have been given a bad rap. they can survive in really cold temperatures.

    they have trouble when things get hot though.

    they’re like the red sox in late summer- can’t take the heat :)

  67. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 10:01 am

    mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:57 am
    The problem with this team is that they are not hungry.
    They were hungry for a title in their 1st year in the new Stadium and won it.
    Tex, Arod and dare I say it, the Capt., are not on the mission they once were on.
    They have done it all, won it all.
    I hope I am wrong but I just don’t feel it.

    ————————————————————–

    I’d be more inclined to think of the RS that way but not the the Yankees.

  68. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:01 am

    “Hawkins wanted that #.
    Some times you have to say NO to your children.
    Somebody whisper that in Joba’s ear too.”

    Yeah he showed up in the Bronx and demanded the number.

    On top of it, who in hell is Paul O’Neil? His number wasn’t retired. He was as classless in the whole thing as the animals who booed him.

    “Who is this kind, benevolent caring “Boss” you guys are referring to?”

    The same guy who gave millions of his own money when there were enormous tragedies in this country, the same guy who took care of Doc Gooden and Strawberry when they were having their problems and never turned his back on them, the same guy who cared more about the fanbase than any other owner I’ve seen, the same guy who did tons for charity and never bragged about it.

    Sorry that he demanded so much of the people who worked for him. :roll:

  69. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 10:02 am

    GB

    We have been told that he is a DH, not that there is anything wrong with DHing.

    As I have said, if they didn’t want Montero, fine, but then trade him (in a package) for offense, or failing that, a pitcher who has passed the injury matrix years.

    If that wasn’t available now, wait. He was cheap offensive insurance on a team with age-related offensive vulnerabilities.

  70. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 10:02 am

    “you’re nuts
    —————-
    that’s all ya got?”

    In December 1944, during the Battle of the Bulge, German forces surrounded the town of Bastogne, a town in Belgium then held by the 101st Airborne Division and located at a crossroads that could have allowed the Germans to break through the American lines and reach their goal of retaking the port city of Antwerp. With the American forces surrounded, short on supplies and suffering the effects of the bitter cold weather, two German officers approached the American lines with a demand that the U.S. forces surrender or face destruction.[1]
    Brigadier General Anthony McAuliffe was serving as acting division commander and was handed the German demand. Kinnard, then a Lieutenant Colonel serving as the division’s operations officer, recounted that McAuliffe laughed and said “Us surrender? Aw, nuts.” After considering the German demand, McAuliffe said he didn’t know what to say in response, to which Kinnard replied, “That first remark of yours would be hard to beat.”
    McAuliffe then wrote down: ‘To the German Commander, Nuts! The American Commander.’”

    Sorry I just love that sorry.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Kinnard

  71. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 10:03 am

    MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 9:58 am
    GB7

    Ask the Twins how that Mauer contract looks now.

    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    The Giants about Posey. The Yanks and Romine. The Cleveland Indians and Ray Fosse.

  72. 86w183 March 31st, 2012 at 10:04 am

    By the way, has anyone noticed Montero was the DH for both games in Japan?

    It could be the Mariners have already concluded he’s not going to be their catcher.

    Of course elite bats will be moved from behind the plate sooner and sooner in their careers. The era of Posada, Vateritek, Pudge et al catching 130+ for 10+ years and still hitting are probably over.

    Mauer will get moved. Posey will get moved. McCann probably will be eased into another position over the next few years.

  73. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:04 am

    “Hawkins wanted that #.
    Some times you have to say NO to your children.
    Somebody whisper that in Joba’s ear too.”

    Yeah he showed up in the Bronx and demanded the number.

    On top of it, who in hell is Paul O’Neil? His number wasn’t retired. He was as classless in the whole thing as the animals who booed him.
    ===========================
    Hawkins wanted that # because of Clemente, did you know that?
    Who was O’Neill?
    Shows you what kind of a Yankee fan you are.
    You have said it before,you root for everyone not called the Red Sox, spell it right.

  74. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:06 am

    Tar

    Didn’t McAuliffe play for the Tigers in the 60′s?

  75. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 10:07 am

    Against All Odds March 30th, 2012 at 9:33 pm
    Pain in shoulder?
    ——————————-
    Tar- I don’t want any kudos. All I said was that he was grimacing, something is wrong and soon said afterward that he should have an MRI and a thorough exam before being sent down to the minors. I even posted a retrospective article on false positive MRI.

    My point is that it was not obvious to everyone posting, watching the game on TV, with access to camera angles and close-ups, that he was hurt. Yes something wasn’t right. A lot of talk about his arm angle, his cut fastball and even a tired arm. One person even “suggested” that the Mariners possibly knew about a pre-existing injury before trading him, indicating i guess that Cashman didn’t do hid due diligence.

    Therefore since it wasn’t obvious to us, why assume Girardi and staff should have guessed that he was “hurt” long before it was announced?

  76. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 10:07 am

    Delmon Young had a 91 OPS+ the year preceding the trade. Taken together with throwing a bat at an umpire, he didn’t have a fraction of Montero!s value. So if he is calling, hang up, it is the wrong number.

  77. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:07 am

    The problem is that if you wait to trade till pitchers are 26 they are at the 15 mil plus level. Sh’t happens, life goes on.

    I’m just grateful that the Yankee management has multi back ups. As mentioned Verlander, Baumgarner, Hughes all had dead arms for varying lengths of time after the first year.

    Hopefully this is just soreness, a muscle strain, at about the time dead arm appears. The kid reached for extra velo and it wasn’t there.

  78. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 10:08 am

    Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 9:43 am

    Young pitchers present a very high risk, maybe one day the people who run this team will stop taking unnecessary risks.

    —————————————–

    Maybe one day they’ll be good enough to actually develop their own pitching.

  79. 86w183 March 31st, 2012 at 10:09 am

    Trisha —-

    Those are all valid points and I have great admiration for much of what Mr. Steinbrenner did, particularly away from the spotlight. He WAS an incredible man and remarkably generous in many ways.

    I was reacting to the notion that the Yanks miss his “nuturing” nature which is absurd. Yeah, he reached out to people when they hit rock bottom, but he was also part of why some of those individuals needed help.

    He owned the Yanks for many years, but while I enjoyed 1976-81 and 1996-2001 I also remember the other stretches where his impatience, impulsiveness and ego led the Yanks to being HUGE underachievers.

    I mean the man did drive Yogie Berra away from the franchise for 20 years. We can’t forget that… well, I won’t.

  80. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:09 am

    My point is that it was not obvious to everyone posting, watching the game on TV, with access to camera angles and close-ups, that he was hurt. Yes something wasn’t right.
    ==========================
    Then why didn’t they go out and talk to him?
    Cone saw it, we all saw he was uncomfortable.
    Like Torre and the midges, why wasn’t Girardi protecting his players?

  81. vinny-b March 31st, 2012 at 10:10 am

    mick March 31st, 2012 at 9:43 am
    Yankee mngmnt screwed the pooch on the Hawkins thing as well.
    O’Neill was beloved.
    ————————————

    based on what you’ve said, you were one of the flakes in the stands leading the charge (ie booing Latrell Hawkins). At least is what you admitted to on this site

  82. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 10:11 am

    The problem is that if you wait to trade till pitchers are 26 they are at the 15 mil plus level. Sh’t happens, life goes on.
    -
    No sh!t that is foreseeable should be avoided.

  83. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 10:11 am

    We should just wish for the days of guys like Ponson, Rasner and Mitre.

    Such good times.

  84. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:12 am

    At least is what you admitted to on this site
    ============================
    are you drunk or just incoherent?

  85. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:12 am

    “Yankee mngmnt screwed the pooch on the Hawkins thing as well.
    O’Neill was beloved.”

    Tough to blame Hawkins for that.

    But the retreads who booed him did. And then wondered why he couldn’t pitch well in the Bronx.

  86. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 10:13 am

    Maybe one day they’ll be good enough to actually develop their own pitching.
    -

    True, but they are close enough to doing it that these type of risks aren’t necessary.

  87. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 10:14 am

    Tar, McAuliff was something else. Talk about some poor slob that was handed a disaster waiting to happen. 2 divisions of untrained fresh troops from boot camp, limited supplies barely any artillery and no armor to hold an area that size with no air cover and little support with a wide open front. Firing artillery point blank into the panzers and about 6 hours of ammo left. You could hardly blame a guy for giving up to save his soldiers. The one thing he had going for him was Malmady.

  88. ron March 31st, 2012 at 10:14 am

    GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 9:26 am
    VN,

    I said it last night. There is a considerable difference between pitching or playing with soreness and pitching or playing with pain. I’m not buying that Pineda doesn’t know the difference because of his age. Warren, Phelphs and 21 year old Brett Marshall knew the difference last year. If Pineda was pitching in pain and didn’t mention it, that’s as much on him or moreso than anyone else. They can talk all they want to about him pitching for a spot, but he was outpitching Nova by a large amount and better than Garcia or Sabathia.

    The constant whining and finger pointing over that trade and last night isn’t something you’d expect from the “most intelligent baseball fans” in the country. More like a bunch of whining and petulent spoiled brats. I find it hard to believe that any of them are older than 12 years of age.

    ——————————————————————————————————————-

    Spot on.

    Grow up people,and lets wait for the mri,then go from there.

    My guess,and hope is, a muscle strain,or tendenitis,nothing big.
    This is why i never agree with a huge innings increase for a pitcher,like hughes wen’t through.

    Some pitchers just get hurt.Nothing you can do.
    But why risk it,and increase a pitchers innings by too much?

  89. randy l. March 31st, 2012 at 10:15 am

    when are people going to get it in their heads that it’s the kiss of death for a young pitcher to be the new next big thing for the yankee rotation ?

    there’s something wrong with how they push pitchers ahead at the last of the process. the yankees themselves salivate so much they just can’t wait a little longer.

    then they have to send the guy back for rehab and restart the whole process.

    that said, this setback for pineda may be the best thing that ever happened to him. now he’ll get the time he needs to do it right.

    shame on the yankees for pushing the kid into this situation. they should have told him form thr start he’d be in triple a to start the season to get accustomed to the yankee system and to perfect his change up.

    i’ve never been down on pineda. i’ve been down on how the yankees planned to use pineda.

    i did not like the trade to get him, but pineda is his own man and it’s not his fault he was traded for a favorite of a lot of us.

    i kind of like the kid. i have no doubt he can be really good given the right coaching. in retrospect was it right to throw him in to the starting rotation and expect so much so fast?

    i said in february it was total BS to do this and now look at the mess the yankee approach has created.

    when are you people on the blog going to wake up and get it that the yankees lose their cool when a kid gets close ?

    they seem to lose their judgement maybe because they are so close to the process. that happens.
    at ay rate, i’m 100% behind pineda and am pulling for him to go to AAA and regroup , get his velocity back, master that change, and give the yankees a giant shot in the arm in may or early june.

  90. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 10:15 am

    We should just wish for the days of guys like Ponson, Rasner and Mitre.
    -

    They made the playoffs every year with these type of pitchers. They were good times.

  91. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Tough to blame Hawkins for that.

    But the retreads who booed him did. And then wondered why he couldn’t pitch well in the Bronx.
    ===========================
    OK, we know you are against booing your own players but how else do the fans get their message across?
    It wasn’t that they hated Hawkins…it was mgmnts fault for giving him that #.
    They won’t do it again, that’s for sure.

  92. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 10:16 am

    Hawkins didn’t demand anything. He asked for the number and the clubhouse guy gave it to him.

  93. DONNYBROOK March 31st, 2012 at 10:18 am

    Maxwell continue to make life difficult for the Yankee Hierarchy. He belongs on the 25 Man going North. He’s got a swagger\confidence that doesn’t turn into a Nick Swisher Cartoon Fest. I like Maxwell’s play and his style.

  94. RMS March 31st, 2012 at 10:18 am

    That’s a new one. Never trade for a pitcher under 26. Show us a list of pitchers traded who were under 26 and got injured.

  95. jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 10:18 am

    Here’s a decent compilation of Pineda deliveries, you can compare it to how he looked last night.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laHEDLQsbmM

  96. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:18 am

    when are you people on the blog going to wake up and get it that the yankees lose their cool when a kid gets close ?
    ========================
    because some here think THE YANKEES can do no wrong.
    It’s Yankees, love it OR Leave It…it’s not that way at all.
    they make mistakes.
    they are impatient, just like their fans.

  97. Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 10:18 am

    Good post, randy. Let’s get Pineda right and get a new way of doing things in the way they approach pitchers.

    Later.

  98. Against All Odds March 31st, 2012 at 10:19 am

    Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 10:13 am

    Maybe one day they’ll be good enough to actually develop their own pitching.
    -

    True, but they are close enough to doing it that these type of risks aren’t necessary.

    ——————————————

    Very well said

  99. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 10:20 am

    Ron and GB-

    Thank you for saying what I wanted to say but am too slow of a typist to say! :)

  100. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:21 am

    “Hawkins wanted that # because of Clemente, did you know that?
    Who was O’Neill?
    Shows you what kind of a Yankee fan you are.
    You have said it before,you root for everyone not called the Red Sox, spell it right.”

    :)

    Cry me a river. O’Neill can kiss my butt. He effectively threw Hawkins under the bus by not doing anything to put an end to it. I lost all respect for him too when that happened.

    And you got it. You said it before and you said it again. You caught me mick. I’m not a Yankee fan at all! You’re smarter than I thought.

    :lol:

  101. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 10:21 am

    After being retired for 5 years, the mourning period for O’Neill should have been over. If the number was supposed to be held as some sacred shroud, GMS would have had the number retired.

  102. vinny-b March 31st, 2012 at 10:22 am

    mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:12 am

    At least is what you admitted to on this site
    ————————————————-

    very coherent. It’s you on trial, not myself

    in the past, on this very site, you admitted to being one of the individuals at Yankee stadium who was booing Latrell Hawkins for taking #21. Pathetic

  103. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:23 am

    No sh!t that is foreseeable should be avoided.

    ——————-
    There is stiil the need for top end starters. Ideally you need three – Philly, Boston, Tampa.

    The quest is for top end, shut down pitchers for the post season. You can buy one (as in CC at 20 mil plus),grow your own or trade, The CC solution is too expensive as in Philly. The Yankees have tried drafting them, ie Betances, Brackman, Cole, for various reasons that hasn’t worked. So now they’re at option three.

    Of course you have to overpay, that’s the nature of the beast.

  104. RMS March 31st, 2012 at 10:24 am

    We should just wish for the days of guys like Ponson, Rasner and Mitre.
    -

    They made the playoffs every year with these type of pitchers. They were good times.

    ===================================================================

    Wow.

  105. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 10:24 am

    “Therefore since it wasn’t obvious to us, why assume Girardi and staff should have guessed that he was “hurt” long before it was announced?”

    Sorry YT I’m not following you. It was obvious.

    I know I posted a week or so ago that “why” Pineda was not able to reach his velocity was a major question with important ramifications.

    There are many on here who are much more capable of reading into pitching than me, who observed his laboring mechanics ( cut FB, loss of velocity, etc) , even before last night.

    Taking all that into account why the pressure put on him for last night’s start?

    And why should the Yankees have to “guess” at anything? With such an obviously important young player like Pineda shouldn’t a prudent course have been the wise choice?

    And even if we are only talking about last night (And I defintly consider you one of us) if you noticed it at 8:03 when exactly did the Yankees notice something? only after he said his shoulder hurts? Well duh, what a shock.

    Sorry the Yankee have some splaining to do.

  106. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 10:24 am

    Are there any ways, short of cutting Ibanez, which the Yankees won’t do, or going with 11 pitchers, if no-one of the 25 man roster is on the DL, that the Yankees can keep Maxwell without exposing him to waivers?

    Would they have to put him on the DL?

  107. BD (Boston Dave) March 31st, 2012 at 10:24 am

    Man, how times have changed.

    Fans really have become spoiled and entitled.

  108. Stoneburner March 31st, 2012 at 10:24 am

    Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 10:07 am
    Delmon Young had a 91 OPS+ the year preceding the trade. Taken together with throwing a bat at an umpire, he didn’t have a fraction of Montero!s value. So if he is calling, hang up, it is the wrong number.

    ***********

    He was a top 5 prospect in 2006 – a former no.1 pick – he was putting up those numbers at 21 – and many considered a good first season especially for his age – only thing that was lacking was the power (.288, 38 2Bs, 93 RBIs – on pre-Rays coming out team) – similar numbers actually to Montero’s AAA season – though Montero did hit 5 more homeruns – but that is against minor league pitching – Montero was still in the minors putting up those same numbers – so yeah Young was just as regarded at the time – and for you to say he did not have a fraction of Montero’s value shows your bias, blindness, and lack of knowledge about other team’s players – especially at that time. You are going more on what Young is now rather than at the time. Plus – at least Young could play a position at the time instead of serving as a DH.

  109. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:26 am

    they seem to lose their judgement maybe because they are so close to the process. that happens.
    at ay rate, i’m 100% behind pineda and am pulling for him to go to AAA and regroup , get his velocity back, master that change, and give the yankees a giant shot in the arm in may or early june.

    ————-
    Good on ya, mate.

  110. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 10:26 am

    So Joe decided, knowing that Pineda was having velocity issues, to tell the world that last night’s game was a big one, even though he knows there could be a physical issue? That’s lovely.

  111. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:27 am

    “Fans really have become spoiled and entitled.”

    SFT

  112. Stoneburner March 31st, 2012 at 10:27 am

    RMS March 31st, 2012 at 10:18 am
    That’s a new one. Never trade for a pitcher under 26. Show us a list of pitchers traded who were under 26 and got injured.

    *******

    Exactly – so under this theory – the Montreal Expos were silly stupid for trading Delino DeShields for a young Pedro Martinez of the Dodgers. . . . .

  113. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 10:28 am

    Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 10:24 am
    Are there any ways, short of cutting Ibanez, which the Yankees won’t do, or going with 11 pitchers, if no-one of the 25 man roster is on the DL, that the Yankees can keep Maxwell without exposing him to waivers?

    Would they have to put him on the DL?

    ————————————————————————————————————————————-

    Unless he comes up with a hamstring pull or something, no way would MLB allow them to DL a healthy player to hide him.

  114. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:30 am

    I’m not a Yankee fan at all!
    ====================
    Sure, you are in the majority of people who root for more than one baseball team, give me a break.

  115. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:32 am

    Betsy, I don’t know whether or not Girardi figured there could be a physical issue but I am so disgusted with this competition thing and all the drama they made about last night’s game being so “critical”. Did they expect a 23-year-old under the microscope to go out there and be flawless, not to feel the same pressure that Freddy and Nova have to be feeling, even moreso because he’s the new kid on the block? Do they think Pineda doesn’t realize how much heat he’s taking for the trade or didn’t realize all the criticism about his velocity? I just think they handled it so poorly.

  116. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:32 am

    If the number was supposed to be held as some sacred shroud, GMS would have had the number retired.
    ================
    Like I said before, then let’s see them give it out to someone else…

  117. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 10:32 am

    Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:26 am
    they seem to lose their judgement maybe because they are so close to the process. that happens.
    at ay rate, i’m 100% behind pineda and am pulling for him to go to AAA and regroup , get his velocity back, master that change, and give the yankees a giant shot in the arm in may or early june.

    ————-
    Good on ya, mate.

    ————————————————————————————————————————————

    Regardless of the outcome of the tests, even if it’s just inflammation, shut him down and leave him in the warm Florida sun and put him in extended ST and get everything right. Taking him north to the cold to rehab with a team with no city is foolish.

  118. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 10:33 am

    Tar-

    Last night was the first night I paid close attention to his demeanor, his pitches, basically his body language.

    I agree with you that the manager and coaches owe the fans an explanation why they didn’t shut him down sooner and work him up, BUT, if the player continues to tell all the coaches and the ex-Yankee consultants on the field that nothing is wrong, when asked morning noon and night, I guess you could say sorry buster, but if you can’t dial it up in your bulllpen session to 95, then you are getting another MRI and seeing the Doctor.

  119. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:34 am

    “Sure, you are in the majority of people who root for more than one baseball team, give me a break.”

    I root for all baseball teams (except one) to do well because I believe in competition and mostly because I believe in my team.

    Because I don’t kick the dog when the Yankees lose or criticize the hell out of players when they’re having down times doesn’t make me less of a fan. In fact, I’d say it makes me more of a fan. You can’t buy loyalty – can you.

  120. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:34 am

    Competition is inherent in sports.
    Always has been, always will.
    Even among teammates, strange as that may seem.

  121. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 10:34 am

    “no way would MLB allow them to DL a healthy player to hide him.”

    Could glacial bat speed be considered a medical diagnosis?

    i kid i kid

    GB

    BTW I love reading all the stories about the Battle of the Bulge. Actually had a relative who was there an wounded. Great man, but didn’t want to talk much about it though.

  122. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:36 am

    Exactly – so under this theory – the Montreal Expos were silly stupid for trading Delino DeShields for a young Pedro Martinez of the Dodgers.

    Yay, An Expo fan. The against all odds team. There’s less and less of us every year.

    Next someone will mention Rick Monday and the game.

    Or the Yankees and the Expos possible meeting in the World Series.

  123. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:36 am

    I root for all baseball teams (except one) to do well because I believe in competition and mostly because I believe in my team.
    =====================================
    I am so disgusted with this competition thing
    =========================================
    Well, which one is it?

  124. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:38 am

    Regardless of the outcome of the tests, even if it’s just inflammation, shut him down and leave him in the warm Florida sun and put him in extended ST and get everything right. Taking him north to the cold to rehab with a team with no city is foolish.

    ———————
    The truth is self evident.

  125. mick March 31st, 2012 at 10:38 am

    I root for all baseball teams (except one) to do well because I believe in competition and mostly because I believe in my team.
    ==========================================
    Show me a “fan” who roots for many teams and I see a fan who is not devoted .

  126. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 10:38 am

    Firing Cashman because you don’t like a trade is so over the top as to be laughable, especially since the trade is maybe 5 minutes old. Some people just won’t give the trade a chance or Pineda, which is sad. Now I’m really not a huge Cashman fan any longer, so there would be legitimate reasons for firing him, like continued incompetence when it comes to evaulating pitchers’ health, but that would require not just letting him go, but a complete overhaul of the team. That’s not happening.

    Trisha, I was not happy that Pineda came into camp overweight, but he’s been piled on by fans (not in all places, granted) and the media (laughable as they wouldn’t know Montero from a hole in the wall; like they follow the minor leagues). I don’t think Pineda reads the newspapers or even knows about fans’ displeasure, but he’s a kid who desperately wants to make an impression and knows that there is an obvious competition. It’s dumb, but athletes are not going to say anything in that situation – we see it all the time. I’ve not been concerned about his velocity all along because I think it’s at most a one year thing, but the idea of making him push himself just to win a spot in the rotation is horrible management.

  127. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Tar March 31st, 2012 at 10:34 am
    “no way would MLB allow them to DL a healthy player to hide him.”

    Could glacial bat speed be considered a medical diagnosis?

    i kid i kid

    GB

    BTW I love reading all the stories about the Battle of the Bulge. Actually had a relative who was there an wounded. Great man, but didn’t want to talk much about it though.

    ————————————————————————————————————————————

    I love the history of that era. Speaking of the Battle Of The Bulge, I watched “Combat” last night on TV. It was the episode with Warren Spahn in it playing a German machine gunner. He was in that battle and won a bronze star with “V” (for valor), Purple Heart and a battle field commission during that battle. He was just 23 or 24 at that time.

  128. Stoneburner March 31st, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Stoneburner March 31st, 2012 at 9:57 am
    Rich in NJ March 31st, 2012 at 9:49 am
    Unnecessary risks means you do not trade hitters with impact potential for pitchers under 26, which is the the age until which pitchers are more susceptible to injury. This isn’t hindsight, many of us made this point in our opposition to the trade on the day it was made.

    ********

    I really should have responded to this one – Delino Deshields for Pedro Martinez is calling again. . . . . .

  129. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:39 am

    mick, when you try to showboat but use poor examples, you only expose yourself as looking ridiculous.

    I’m sure others got it, but for you, I’ll take the time to break it down.

    I believe in competition between teams. I don’t want my team ever winning by default.

    I am disgusted with the way the competition for the rotation was handled, how Girardi continued to publicize it, and how last night’s game was so played up.

    But I know when you’re like a doggy with a bone, so I await your next failed attempt at tripping me up.

  130. Betsy March 31st, 2012 at 10:40 am

    I don’t know that I think Pineda should always have been ticketed for AAA, but Randy’s overall post is a good one. I don’t think the velocity will return this year, though, so should he keep pitching through it?

  131. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 10:41 am

    randy

    I’m a bit confused. I know you think that’s because of where I live.

    Last year you praised the Twins for bringing up pitchers and then sending them back to AAA.

    This year you praised the Ray’s for having their pitchers ready when they bring them up.

    I think Cashman has been reading this too and that may be why he doesn’t know how to handle his young pitchers.

  132. MTU March 31st, 2012 at 10:41 am

    Randy-

    Credit where credit is due.

    You suggested a different way early on.

    You took a lot of Sh*t for it.

    Looks like you were very right.

    I might have to start paying more attention to your prognostications.

    And by the way, greetings from gate C78.

    ;)

  133. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:41 am

    “Show me a “fan” who roots for many teams and I see a fan who is not devoted .”

    I don’t root for many teams. I root for teams to do well. I root for one team.

    Another failed attempt. Come one doggy. I’m waiting.

  134. GiambiMustacheSquad March 31st, 2012 at 10:41 am

    I’m hearing from my sources that Pineda injured his shoulder when Cashman patted him there to welcome him to the team following the WTITHOM (worst trade in the history of man). Pineda is also now seeking psychological counseling (as per my source) to deal with being the person traded for the greatest player in history (my source has been to the future and attended Montero’s first-ballot HOF induction). Also, Girardi purposely left Pineda on the mound (source told me) even after Pineda was heard saying “ow”. This team is destined for failure.

  135. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 10:42 am

    I use to love Combat “with Vic Morrow”.

    Truly an amazing generation.

  136. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 10:42 am

    In retrospect putting pressure on Pineda to perform was a poor idea, but that’s retrospect, folks. I didn’t see a lot of people here saying otherwise leading up to this start.

    Who actually thought he was injured? He’s had success this spring training. He’s still been striking guys out. His change has looked ok to good. His velocity has increased since his first couple of starts, he’s gone up to 94MPH. it was easy to perceive he was making strides and last night would be the next step.

    If you thought Girardi shouldn’t have made it known Pineda’s spot was in jeopardy, then good thinking. I don’t think everyone can claim that. I don’t think it’s as obvious as people are claiming. Managers let guys go and see if they can make mechanical adjustments *in spring training* all the time. When a guy continually says he’s healthy, and seems effective, you generally believe the guy.

  137. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:45 am

    Radio Kev. Good post.

    “I’m hearing from my sources that Pineda injured his shoulder when Cashman patted him there to welcome him to the team following the WTITHOM (worst trade in the history of man). Pineda is also now seeking psychological counseling (as per my source) to deal with being the person traded for the greatest player in history (my source has been to the future and attended Montero’s first-ballot HOF induction). Also, Girardi purposely left Pineda on the mound (source told me) even after Pineda was heard saying “ow”. This team is destined for failure.”

    :)

  138. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 10:46 am

    Dr GB7

    I need a prescription for some of that warm sun you’re talking about.

    It’s cold up north.

  139. jacksquat March 31st, 2012 at 10:46 am

    MTU March 31st, 2012 at 10:41 am
    Randy-

    Credit where credit is due.

    You suggested a different way early on.

    You took a lot of Sh*t for it.

    Looks like you were very right.

    I might have to start paying more attention to your prognostications.

    And by the way, greetings from gate C78.

    Randy wanted him to go to AAA to work on his changeup, not because there was something wrong with him. Which is wrong, his changeup is fine for his third best pitch.

    Oh, and also so Cashman would look bad.

  140. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 10:46 am

    It wasn’t a good idea, criticism is valid, but it’s not like the coaching staff and front office is stupid.

  141. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 10:47 am

    “When a guy continually says he’s healthy, and seems effective, you generally believe the guy.”

    Even if he’s 23, fighting for a starting rotation spot for the NY Yankees and has had a precipitous drop in velocity?

  142. randy l. March 31st, 2012 at 10:47 am

    trisha-

    i noticed looking back at some early february post that you liked the idea of sending pineda to AAA to start the season.

    i curious why you would take this position yet you seem like you were fighting my position on pineda the whole winter?

    on this fundamental issue we were in agreement.

    and even now you seem to be saying it’s fine for the yankees to send him to triple a , but that they are somehow immune to criticism.

    i think they just ran another young pitcher into rehab which was what i was saying could be a problem from the get go.

    it was too much too soon.

    it is different to be a yankee.

    different rules apply because of the pressure of pitching on the biggest stage in sports.

  143. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 10:48 am

    Sometimes it’s the players fault:
    Read this:

    http://itsaboutthemoney.net/ar.....ut-pineda/

  144. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:49 am

    When the guy tells you that his fb in ST started out the same way the year before, do you doubt him?

  145. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 10:49 am

    Every team that has more starters than spots for them have competition for those spots. There are four teams in the AL East right now having open competition and everybody in baseball knows it. It’s no surprise to anyone, least of all the pitchers involved. Girardi didn’t think this thing up just to piss people of. He’s looking for the five best pitchers in the organization. It’s not The Manhatten Project that’s being kept under wraps. The unusual thing about this one with NY is how many they have competing and all but one are in the same age group.

  146. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 10:50 am

    Tar March 31st, 2012 at 10:47 am
    “When a guy continually says he’s healthy, and seems effective, you generally believe the guy.”

    Even if he’s 23, fighting for a starting rotation spot for the NY Yankees and has had a precipitous drop in velocity?
    —————–

    Retrospect. Of course you’re right, in retrospect. Everyone’s right in retrospect.

    Last night was Pineda’s worst start, he looked bad. It’s the real outlier of this spring training.

  147. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 10:52 am

    MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 10:46 am
    Dr GB7

    I need a prescription for some of that warm sun you’re talking about.

    It’s cold up north.

    ————————————————————————————————————————————

    Just hop on the first thing smokin’ south, Pal. And leave Moose And Squirrel alone.

  148. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 10:52 am

    Between Rothschild, Pena and Girardi, (Cone in the booth) there has to be something in the vicinity of seventy to a hundred years of pitching experience. In the intrest of self preservation they would react as soon as possible. They all saw the same thing but there are so many causative variables that there is no instant response.

  149. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 10:53 am

    http://itsaboutthemoney.net/ar.....ut-pineda/
    ————

    “(the Yankees decided to insist he needed to pitch his way on to the team, after all)”

    What a paradox retrospect argument. So Pineda should have made this team now? Get real.

  150. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 10:55 am

    randy, truth be told, I was fighting your position on Pineda because I believed that it was coming from your detesting the trade and not because you were truly committed to what you were saying. I thought you were looking for every excuse in the book to trash Pineda.

    “and even now you seem to be saying it’s fine for the yankees to send him to triple a , but that they are somehow immune to criticism.”

    I don’t know that I have said they are immune to criticism. In fact I think I’ve said that I no longer understand the organization or who is exactly running it. I did say that I don’t know enough about the situation to be able to know where to assess blame. I feel like they are a ruderless ship oftentimes. That’s why I keep bringing it back to how different things were when the Boss was around.

    “it is different to be a yankee.

    different rules apply because of the pressure of pitching on the biggest stage in sports.”

    I preach that ALL the time. I have continually said that not everyone is prepared to play in the Bronx.

  151. randy l. March 31st, 2012 at 10:56 am

    “It wasn’t a good idea, criticism is valid, but it’s not like the coaching staff and front office is stupid.”

    ben bernanke and alan greenspan aren’t stupid either, but they ran the us economy off the road because they were too close to the action to see the obvious problems with housing .

    i think the problem that the yankees have is that there are no independent voices in the organization who can give some perspective to a situation before management makes a big choice.

    everyone is on the same page because that’s how yankee management wants it.

    the problem is that they are all looking at things from too close a view and don’t se the big picture. the yankees need reorganize management so there are some independent voices that are free to speak without being reprimanded for going counter to the party line.

  152. Tar March 31st, 2012 at 10:58 am

    “Retrospect. Of course you’re right, in retrospect. Everyone’s right in retrospect.
    Last night was Pineda’s worst start, he looked bad. It’s the real outlier of this spring training.”

    For the professionals this debacle (is that too harsh?) shouldn’t fall into the retrospect area.

    As for outlier I would say yes for his total performance, because his secondary pitches have looked good.

    But for his “money pitch” the FB was the same bad FB we have seen all ST. Nothing changed with his FB.

    He said he could dial it up if wanted to. Did mgmt. ask him to do that in side sessions, or was this all taken at his word? Enquiring minds want to know?

  153. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 10:59 am

    ben bernanke and alan greenspan aren’t stupid either, but they ran the us economy off the road because they were too close to the action to see the obvious problems with housing .
    —————-

    That’s a fair point with any organization. I think it’s a little hard to make this judgement about the Yankees, because we obviously don’t know all the conversations or decision making – but any good organization needs independent voices and debate. That’s true.

  154. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 10:59 am

    Having a pitcher that spent a whole season in the ML pitch in ST is too much too soon?

  155. Bo knows March 31st, 2012 at 11:02 am

    Yep, I can see Cashman telling Eppler. “I’m really feeling too good today, I think I’ll whack myself in the mouth to gain some perspective. Better yet, let’s go watch Pineda blow up”.

    These guys have all “Been there, done that, got the T shirts”.

  156. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 11:02 am

    I think that part of the problem was with Pineda pitching as many innings as he did last season. It was similar to what happened to Alexi Ogando. He went through the same thing last season, where he was flying along and then all of a sudden started to have problems. They rush these guys – and sometimes they are basically forced to – and then the predictable happens.

    That’s why I thought it would be good for Pineda to start in AAA. It would give his arm a chance to catch up and put less pressure on him. I know it’s Monday morning QBing but if the Yanks took that position for jump street, we probably wouldn’t be where we are right now. The kids was fighting for a spot and trying to prove that the trade wasn’t the demon so many were making it out to be.

    But then, maybe the organization was feeling the pressure from the fanbase and the media due to the unpopularity of the trade in certain circles to have Pineda prove that he was worth what they traded away.

    Tough to assess and know that you’re assessing properly. There are so many variables.

  157. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 11:02 am

    Randy-

    In ST with all the ex-Yankee greats on the field and ex-players in the booth, don’t you think they speak up when they see/suspect something, not worrying about going counter to the part line?

  158. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 11:03 am

    Tar March 31st, 2012 at 10:42 am
    I use to love Combat “with Vic Morrow”.

    Truly an amazing generation.

    ————————————————————————————————————————————

    “Combat” was at least realistic. US soldiers were killed. One of the other shows from that time, “Gallant Men”, no US soldiers were ever killed. “12 O’Clock High” was a good show, too. Cant believe they killed off the star of the show, Robert Lansing at the end of the first year. He played General Frank Savage. At least, that two was realistic. a lot of generals and full bird colonals that piloted the B-17s and Super Forts were killed back then.

  159. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 11:03 am

    Nothing new here at Pineda-obituary.com

  160. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 11:04 am

    Also known as Montero-HOF.com

  161. Stoneburner March 31st, 2012 at 11:06 am

    ben bernanke and alan greenspan aren’t stupid either, but they ran the us economy off the road because they were too close to the action to see the obvious problems with housing .

    ***************

    too much deregulation or lack thereof – alan even finally backtracked after everything – he was huge supporter of Ayn Rand – let the market figure it out – problem comes when people in charge of certain institutions (and some of their EEs) are unethical or immoral – there needs to be a check. Ultimately – the check unfortunately is the great equalizer – for as much money someone has – as much power – we all end up in the same place in the end. . . . .

  162. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 11:06 am

    But for his “money pitch” the FB was the same bad FB we have seen all ST. Nothing changed with his FB.

    He said he could dial it up if wanted to. Did mgmt. ask him to do that in side sessions, or was this all taken at his word? Enquiring minds want to know?
    ————-

    Well, it was worse last night because his mechanics were out of whack. His velocity was worse to start the season, and it increased a bit, so that’s not entirely true.

    I’m not sure if that’s typical, or wise, of an organization to ask – show us you can air it out. Doesn’t that put direct pressure on a guy to overthrow? Isn’t that the exact problem we had last night?

    And what do you do with a guy who’s velocity is down in ST? Send him to the minors as a rule? What if his breaking pitches are still good enough? Wasn’t Cole Hamels velocity down in 2009 – but he pitched an entire season? I don’t know if there’s a book on this, perhaps it’s just case by case. We’re still in Spring Training, and the team is still evaluating guys.

  163. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 11:06 am

    Bret, I think we’re all praying that Pineda is okay and that whatever it takes for him to get his stuff back to where we know it can be, that it’s done.

  164. MaineYankee March 31st, 2012 at 11:07 am

    I guess signing Soriano tells us the FO is all on the same page.

  165. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 11:07 am

    And I remain in the camp that definitely believes in Montero but also believes in Pineda.

  166. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 11:07 am

    Praying? Praying for his burial to stay on schedule maybe.

  167. mikey487 March 31st, 2012 at 11:08 am

    I don’t understand why the baseball people on the field, who so many blindly put their faith in because they are the pros and we are simply fans without the facts with which they possess, don’t force the exams etc on the players when something looks out of sync. Instead they wait till it is too late. Then its regrettable. Honestly!

  168. Bret The Hitman March 31st, 2012 at 11:09 am

    SeattleMarinerbelievers.com —>

  169. randy l. March 31st, 2012 at 11:09 am

    “You suggested a different way early on.”

    mtu-

    thanks, but it’s a probability game. i said pineda had about a twenty per cent chance of learning a plus change fast without messing him up.

    what bothered me was the “rush to judgement” that he was ok to just be thrown into the rotation to win and learn a plus pitch at the same time.

    there was a chance pineda could have pulled it off though.

    this probability thing is what stumps most of the blog.

    they want certainty. right or wrong. black or white. it doesn’t work that way.

    it is however good for stimulating blog debate.

    have a good trip.

  170. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 11:10 am

    “Praying? Praying for his burial to stay on schedule maybe.”

    I know you can’t be talking about me since I’ve been a huge Pineda supporter since the trade was announced.

  171. Yankee Trader March 31st, 2012 at 11:11 am

    New Post—–>

  172. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 11:12 am

    Pineda didn’t have much of an innings jump from 2010 in the minors and 2011. About 30 innings. It wasn’t the hughes jump of more than 90. hughes hadn’t pitched over 100 innings in 4 years. There were no “red flags”.

    I’d be more concerned about Cabral’s elbow than Pineda’s shoulder. Of course, Cabral was just some slug picked up off of the Rule 5 heap, and not traded for “The Second Coming”.

  173. RadioKev March 31st, 2012 at 11:14 am

    My belief is that last night sucked, and it was unfortunate. Pineda carries blame because he hid his physical health problems (and we’re not sure for how long). Maybe this whole shoulder thing could have been prevented, but it’s not a simple black and white problem.

    On top of that, we don’t even know what the shoulder thing is yet.

  174. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 11:14 am

    GB – I don’t think I’ve indicated red flags. Just that he wasn’t ready for the majors and put a lot of stress on his arm, the way Ogando did.

  175. DONNYBROOK March 31st, 2012 at 11:15 am

    Vic Morrow was certainly good on Combat, but he played a great part in “The Bad News Bears”. He woulda kicked Boilermaker’s ass.

  176. trisha - true pinstriped blue March 31st, 2012 at 11:16 am

    And I’m not overly concerned about his shoulder and thinking it’s an injury.

    I do think he needs more rest. But I said that as soon as he was traded. I haven’t changed my opinion.

  177. GreenBeret7 March 31st, 2012 at 11:17 am

    Amazing that two pitchers came up injured last night. Cashman and Girardi are the cause of one and the other, just happened.

  178. mikey487 March 31st, 2012 at 11:18 am

    I would really like to know how Girardi was leaning had he needed to make “the decision”.

  179. luis March 31st, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Good morning to everyone,

    Randy,

    Your first post is spot on. Kudos. You did take a lot of sh*t for it.

    Everyone else,

    Let’s hope that there is nothing serious on Pineda’s shoulder. Then he goes to EST for a couple of months, then maybe 4-5 starts in the minors and he will be ready for the second half of the season. Later

  180. randy l. March 31st, 2012 at 11:24 am

    “And I remain in the camp that definitely believes in Montero but also believes in Pineda.”

    trisha-

    a lot of us who hated the trade like both players too.

    for myself , i put a qualifier that pineda could be turned into a reliever in an eye blink if the yankees don’t do things right.

    i spent my whole life being around the game from the sand lot as a kid to the periphery of the pro game to be able to in a few minutes of watching video of pineda to know he had the potential for problems.

    his motion didn’t appeal to my eye. people like jerkface showed some good video of kershaw and others who had a similar falling off to first base and said it was no problem.

    what i saw was pineda doing it too much, too an extreme. it didn’t look like a motion that would allow finesse pitches.

    flaherty echoed some of the things i said about falling off too much. the bottom line is the kid is a serious talent. we are in agreement there.

    what do the yankees do with that talent?

    that’s where the rubber hits the road.

    it’s also where the arguments start.

    but good because there needs to be some serious opposing opinions to come you with
    some good ideas on how pineda should progress.

    hopefully some of this blog debate will reach mainstream media ears and maybe on to the yankees.
    it’s not like chad doesn’t read this blog and ask questions to players and management.

  181. randy l. March 31st, 2012 at 11:35 am

    ” You did take a lot of sh*t for it.”

    luis-

    do ya think?

    but in other people’s defense i don’t take being poked well. i tend to hit back harder than i need to.
    so things can deteriorate pretty quickly into people who just don’t like each other losing the main point of the original argument.

    i do feel there is a core of people who are learning to argue in a way that we actually get some baseball insights and get it right sometimes.

    i would not like people ,who it appears i don’t like ,to disappear.. i’m a big believer in debating ideas.i like to get opposing opinions.

    i was really happy to see CB jump in last night. his participation raises the level of the blog considerably. he is taking a somewhat different position than i am on the cause of pineda’s problems
    ,but that’s great.

    we can have a good discussion and debate about what’s going on. we went through this with wang when he had his spring training problems a few years ago. i think we ended up ahead of the yankees in knowing something was wrong with wang.

    so in that spirit , i say this is going to be an interesting ride with pineda.

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