Tough day for Hughes
Posted by: vmercogliano - Posted in Misc on Apr 14, 2012 
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For the second consecutive start, Phil Hughes struggled with a high pitch count and failed to give the Yankees any length. After only surrendering two runs against the Rays last Sunday, the right-hander was hit much harder in a 7-1 loss to the Angels on Saturday. He couldn’t make it out of the fourth inning, pitching 3 1/3 innings while allowing eight hits and six earned runs on 84 pitches. He gave up two home runs and struck out six. Efficiency will be the topic of conversation for Hughes postgame, as will the inability of the middle of the Yankees order to come through with runners in scoring position.
Associated Press photo
still so early in April, the Yanks haven’t even wiped the eye snot out of their eyes yet or taken their morning pee, but it’s already getting late for Hughes and Tex…boy do we need him but he’s gone
Is there a date that puts an outer limit on sending Hughes to the minors leagues, if necessary?
Hughes’ stuff actually looked pretty good. It’s early in the season. Too early to panic. No command and lack of a quality secondary pitch. Kendrick swung through a FB then hammered a bad cutter. I only remember one CU.
igotid88 April 14th, 2012 at 2:26 pm
Just bad luck for Hughes.
*****
Speechless.
does anyone else get the feeling that picking Cano for an MVP candidate every March will perennially be like getting the “7″ and “7″ boxes in your Super Bowl pool? Seems like a good shot every year, but he just can’t seem to be consistent for a full season. One bad stretch always kills him.
Bo knows April 14th, 2012 at 4:21 pm
Hughes’ stuff actually looked pretty good
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If you’re wearing an Angels uniform and standing in the batter’s box at todays game.
Hughes had pretty different stuff today. However, it’s the same old story with him in his failure to finish off hitters, and the ill-advised slider to Kendrick.
Maybe we should have traded Hughes for Santana a few years ago.
He had 6 strikeouts how did henot finish off hitters?
Hassey April 14th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
does anyone else get the feeling that picking Cano for an MVP candidate every March will perennially be like getting the “7? and “7? boxes in your Super Bowl pool? Seems like a good shot every year, but he just can’t seem to be consistent for a full season. One bad stretch always kills him.
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Everybody has bad stretches.
As HebrewHammer’s grandmother used to say, “FEH”
Don April 14th, 2012 at 4:28 pm
Maybe we should have traded Hughes for Santana a few years ago.
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Then it’s either no CC or another HUGE bloated contract
Ghost – Of course everyone has bad stretches, even me and you, but he seems to let his linger longer than whoever wins the MVP in that given year
Things could be worse — look at the 6-9 hitters for the Sox today as they face a 4-0 deficit.
igotid88 April 14th, 2012 at 4:29 pm
He had 6 strikeouts how did henot finish off hitters?
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84 pitches in 3.1 innings is not finishing off hitters.
Yikes. Curry running through some horrific stats from Hughes. 5.5 ERA since June 2010.
CC hasn’t exactly pitched lights out his first 2 starts. Everything goes back to normal in a full season. Most players pitch to the back of their baseball cards in a full season. Give Hughes a full season and he will be an 18 game winner.
Don April 14th, 2012 at 4:28 pm
Maybe we should have traded Hughes for Santana a few years ago.
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Even though he has been up and down during his career the non trade for Johan was the right move.
Hassey April 14th, 2012 at 4:31 pm
Ghost – Of course everyone has bad stretches, even me and you, but he seems to let his linger longer than whoever wins the MVP in that given year
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Time will tell. Having him hit in the 3-and-4 holes should help him have a monster year.
The writing is on the wall for Hughes…
He should be a solid 6/7th inning reliever.
Only an ineffective Garcia or injuries to other starters can save his spot in the rotation.
I guess he could jump himself in front of Garcia and stick in the rotation when 1 of Andy/Pineda is back but if both are back at some point in the year Phil will say bye bye to his spot in the rotation.
It’s really too bad, I was really pulling for him to force the Yankees’ hand in keeping him in the rotation.
LGY April 14th, 2012 at 4:32 pm
Yikes. Curry running through some horrific stats from Hughes. 5.5 ERA since June 2010.
*******
Just “bad luck”. His “stuff is there”
igotid88 says:
April 14, 2012 at 4:17 pm
Rich in NJ says:
April 14, 2012 at 4:08 pm
“It sucks that pitchers who actually suck get to pitch full seasons without worrying about losing their spots. But here if you have 1 or 2 bad starts. Your job is in jeopardy.”
I think you have to look at what is causing the sucking. Is it readily fixable with more ML innings or is there a more fundamental underlying issue that requires a more prolonged development process?
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Maybe, but his stuff was too good for the minors. I remember people here comparing his minor league numbers to that of johan santana and pedro martinez I believe. His injury in 2007 didn’t help. His injury in 2008 didn’t help. Him being in the bullpen didn’t help him develop his secondary pitches more. His arm fatigue last year didn’t help. Which is why I would like to see him have a couple of full seasons before writing him off as a starter.
. Give Hughes a full season and he will be an 18 game winner.
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Not sure about that. I don’ think he was as bad as ppl made him out to be in his 1st start but he’s still having trouble.
The good news for Hughes is that his velo problems seem to have worked themselves out, and with Pineda on the shelf for a period, he should have a chance to work out his issues.
Which is why I would like to see him have a couple of full seasons before writing him off as a starter.
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A couple of full seasons????
See, I no longer think Hughes has any issues to work out. I think he is what he is…if he wasn’t one of our Yankees, we’d think of him as just another hittable schmo on, say, the 2000-2010 Orioles
igotid88 April 14th, 2012 at 4:33 pm
…Give Hughes a full season and he will be an 18 game winner.
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There is a very good chance that 2010 was fluke, aided by a lucky start to the season. I wouldn’t assume that Hughes’s norm is to be an 18-game winner. His norm might be to be a pitcher with a 5.0 ERA.
LGY says:
April 14, 2012 at 4:32 pm
Yikes. Curry running through some horrific stats from Hughes. 5.5 ERA since June 2010.
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Last April and the 2 starts vs the A’s didn’t help with that era. I wouldn’t put too much into that stat if you have watched him pitch. It takes 3 to 4 great starts to lower a 1 bad start’s era. As pointed out many times here before. He had a stretch of 6-7 ip of 2 runs or less and his era was still high. Also has to do with Joe not letting him finish innings even when he is doing well. He probably lost 20ip because Joe took him out early.
LGY says:
April 14, 2012 at 4:32 pm
Yikes. Curry running through some horrific stats from Hughes. 5.5 ERA since June 2010.
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Last April and the 2 starts vs the A’s didn’t help with that era. I wouldn’t put too much into that stat if you have watched him pitch. It takes 3 to 4 great starts to lower a 1 bad start’s era. As pointed out many times here before. He had a stretch of 6-7 ip of 2 runs or less and his era was still high. Also has to do with Joe not letting him finish innings even when he is doing well. He probably lost 20ip because Joe took him out too early.
On the bright side for Phil he faces the Twins next start.
His next start would be @ Texas.
Hassey April 14th, 2012 at 4:41 pm
See, I no longer think Hughes has any issues to work out. I think he is what he is…if he wasn’t one of our Yankees, we’d think of him as just another hittable schmo on, say, the 2000-2010 Orioles
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You might be right about that. God nows that I’m starting to lose patience with him. Maybe we should trade him to the Mariners for Montero
Is anyone else thinking what I’m thinking after watching Phelps and Hughes today ?
Yankees don’t owe Phil a couple full seasons. They’ve given him enough. No Yankee pitcher has been given more rope than this guy unless the pitcher was signed to a long-term contract and the Yankees were stuck with him. Phil is the Scott Proctor of the starting rotation.
MTU April 14th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
Is anyone else thinking what I’m thinking after watching Phelps and Hughes today ?
********
Phelps has earned it.
yeah – we have alot of bright spots on our pitching staff and in the minors, but Hughes is no longer one of them…I think the good teams now look at their schedules and circle his starts against them as games they HAVE to win. He seems to throw the perfect speed for certain contenders’ lineups. It might get ugly in Texas if it’s 80+
MTU April 14th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
Is anyone else thinking what I’m thinking after watching Phelps and Hughes today ?
==========
Everybody is thinking it.
I know I’m thinking it. Just got off the phone with my best friend. He’s thinking it too.
I always thought that given Hughes is much younger than Freddy if all things were even between the 2 of them Phil would stay in the rotation and Freddy would be the one on his way to the BP… With the emergence of Phelps as the longman (granted only a few outings) the Yankees would more be in need of another short reliever. Hughes certainly fits the bill as more of a short reliever than Freddy. Especially considering Phil is only under control until the end of next season if all things are even between Freddy and Phil I think Hughes might now be the one sent to the BP first.
Bret
Did you watch phil pitch today?
Well at least it wasn’t just me.
Against All Odds says:
April 14, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Which is why I would like to see him have a couple of full seasons before writing him off as a starter.
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A couple of full seasons????
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Yes. Most pitchers get more than 1 full season as a starter to prove themselves. He’s had injury and being put in the bullpen setbacks.
That’s exactly what will happen if nobody offers a decent return for Phil Hughes – he’s going to the pen where we have no weakness and don’t really need him.
I’d take Seth Smith at this point, would even toss-in Cervelli so Beane could trade Suzuki.
Both Hughes & Garcia are making the decision easier. By mid May, Garcia will be gone, Hughes in Pen, Phelps back to AAA and rotation CC, Kuroda, Andy, Pineda, Nova. Later in season Hughes may be trade bait for a needed piece.
Tar,
Yes I watched him pitch. He’s the same 2-pitch pitcher he’s always been. He doesn’t have a reliable out-pitch. The deep counts are because the hitter only has a few pitches to guess from. The K’s happen when the hitter guesses wrong. His stuff sucks.
We traded AJ, and he was re-born in Phil Hughes. If that had been AJ out there today, rather than Hughes, this place would be calling for his head!
If I could make make the call, next time around I give the ball to Phelps, and see how he does as the SP, can’t be worse than Hughes, at least he may give his team a shot at a win, Hughes does not. Looks like the same old Hughes from last season.
Hughes is going to get more time for sure but Mr. Phelps is certainly making a case for himself.
He was just awesome today against a tough hitting team.
He had to have opened up some eyes today and put some questions into some people’s minds.
I cannot see how he wouldn’t have.
this ma be the first tme I’ve ever suggested a trade on here, but if Tabata starts to show something early this year, maybe Phil to the Bucs to get Tabata back for RF next year on-the-cheap?
igotid88 April 14th, 2012 at 4:49 pm
Against All Odds says:
April 14, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Which is why I would like to see him have a couple of full seasons before writing him off as a starter.
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A couple of full seasons???? ————————–
Yes. Most pitchers get more than 1 full season as a starter to prove themselves. He’s had injury and being put in the bullpen setbacks.
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He’s been starting games since 07 though. I’ll give you the bullpen situation but guys get injured maybe he can’t hold up as a starter.
Tabata, Seth Smith, Headley… take your pick.
I’d be optimistic that Phil could be effective out of the pen and I think it’s correct that he would be more of a short reliever than long.
That does present a challenge in terms of bullpen construction. It’s the same challenge the Yanks were going to face if Joba’s return had not been further delayed. There are only two available spots with three contenders: the long man, the second loogy and the addition of Hughes/Joba. So something would have to give.
BIG AL April 14th, 2012 at 4:51 pm
We traded AJ, and he was re-born in Phil Hughes. If that had been AJ out there today, rather than Hughes, this place would be calling for his head!
If I could make make the call, next time around I give the ball to Phelps, and see how he does as the SP, can’t be worse than Hughes, at least he may give his team a shot at a win, Hughes does not. Looks like the same old Hughes from last season.
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Hughes wasn’t throwing as hard last year. The home run to Iannetta was unlucky, and the home run to Kendrick was a mistake. I can understand the temptation to pull the plug on Hughes, but it’s in the Yanks’ best interest to give Hughes a few more starts.
Ghostwriter says:
April 14, 2012 at 4:42 pm
igotid88 April 14th, 2012 at 4:33 pm
…Give Hughes a full season and he will be an 18 game winner.
============
There is a very good chance that 2010 was fluke, aided by a lucky start to the season. I wouldn’t assume that Hughes’s norm is to be an 18-game winner. His norm might be to be a pitcher with a 5.0 ERA.
_________________
Possibly, but he has to be given full seasons. That’s the problem with pitching for the Yankees. You’re 1 bad start from people giving up on you. People love Phelps now until he gives up 10 runs in his next start.
Hughes needs to pitch in the NL, where he can face easier line-ups, and no DH. Heck, it worked for IPK.
Pettitte, Pineda, and now Phelps are definitely contenders for rotation spots.
Andy is actaully a lock if he stays healthy.
I think Phelps talent is becoming more obvious by the day.
This could get real interesting.
Stay tuned.
The last thing I want to see is Hughes given away in some stupid short-sighted trade or put in the pen.
So sure, keep pitching if that’s what they want to do, but if they decide otherwise, the mL option is the best one.
“Hughes wasn’t throwing as hard last year. The home run to Iannetta was unlucky, and the home run to Kendrick was a mistake. I can understand the temptation to pull the plug on Hughes, but it’s in the Yanks’ best interest to give Hughes a few more starts.”
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Every loss counts, whether its now or in September, and right now, Hughes can’t pitch a good game, and can’t get into the 6th inning. When he pitches, the team must think today we need to score 10-12 runs to have a chance. I love Phil Hughes, but, he is not the pitcher he was early in 2010, and I fear he’ll never be that guy.
Possibly, but he has to be given full seasons.
—————–
07- called up early
08- given a spot
09- called up but was sent to the pen
10-given a spot
11-given a spot
12- given a spot
He’s been given seasons just hasn’t come through.
Bret we saw two different pitchers. I know I am not going to change the narrative that you are running with, but from my point of view it’s not what happened today. And I’m well aware of all the chances and injuries and excuses about Phil.
It doesn’t change the fact that the results from “today” are not exactly indicative of how he pitched. He made a couple of location mistakes and paid for it big time. His big mistake ( and an awful pitch) was to Kendrick (with Pujols looming). If Tex makes the play before the HR maybe different outcome. The first HR was an extremely late swing that just barely cleared the foul pole. I can nit-pick the Wells single before that too. I think he deserves a couple more starts, if the results still suck, than send him down and see what you can do.
Minor leagues does nothing for Phil. He is fully developed.
no matters what the reason(s) was today, there’s no shame in losing to Anaheim…but the Yanks played as if they sat down to a blind date with a hot little chirpie, farted as they shook hands, and then just gave up on the rest of the date…
This place now sounds like the Yankees saying AJ is working hard, and he’ll do better next start, then, bam, the next start is the same, or worse. Get real, Hughes right now is no better than AJ was last year, and that’s sad. Next I’ll hear how much talant he has, and needs to be given more chances, same as what was said about AJ.
tar-
I agree. Phil needs more time but you cannot deny how good, and how hungry Phelps looked today.
That deserves serious consideration as well at some time.
“Minor leagues does nothing for Phil. He is fully developed.”
You have absolutely no way of knowing that.
Does anyone have our pitching records against the top hitting teams and our hitters records against the top pitchers over the last few yrs. ?
STARTING PITCHERS
It seems we don’t do well against the top pitchers and our pitchers don’t too well against the best hitting teams.
Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe some do & some don’t.
What does he need to develop? A third pitch? Tried that. It’s over. Nova learned a slider in-season. How many more years do you want to give Hughes to develop a third pitch?
Folks, bottom line, this is PRO baseball, if you do not produce, and others do, than you lose to the better player, unless the binder tells you to stick with the non-performing player, and ignore the guy doing his job.
Against All Odds says:
igotid88 April 14th, 2012 at 4:49 pm
Against All Odds says:
April 14, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Which is why I would like to see him have a couple of full seasons before writing him off as a starter.
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A couple of full seasons???? ————————–
Yes. Most pitchers get more than 1 full season as a starter to prove themselves. He’s had injury and being put in the bullpen setbacks.
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He’s been starting games since 07 though. I’ll give you the bullpen situation but guys get injured maybe he can’t hold up as a starter.
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Everyone here expected Hughes to have a down year last given his high innings jump from 2009 to 2010 and possible sophomore jinx. But it was more for arm fatigue which has happened to other pitchers and those pitchers pitch their way out of it. In 2008 after the injury he should have come back up but they called up Ian Kennedy up first and he wet the bed. So they kept Hughes down until the last game of the year in which he pitched well but got the no decision. He has good stuff and he usually has good location. If they keep toying with him by putting him in the bullpen or skipping his starts. Taking him out too early when he’s pitching well or has 1 more out to go when he’s not getting hit hard but is losing. Then we’re gonna see more of this. If only he threw 98mph and was left-handed
Serious question.
Is Phelps as good as he looks because he looks just awesome to me ?
Is this just SSS or is he the real deal ?
He was masterful out there today. Only made one mistake.
“This place now sounds like the Yankees saying AJ is working hard, and he’ll do better next start, then, bam, the next start is the same, or worse.”
You really can’t see the difference in evaluating a 34 year old and a 26 year old, who was rushed and has been held back by injuries?
4 NYY -
Did you not see yesterdays game?
“What does he need to develop? A third pitch? Tried that. It’s over. Nova learned a slider in-season. How many more years do you want to give Hughes to develop a third pitch?”
Consistent mechanics.
It’s only over in the world of fantasy baseball that animates all of your posts.
The fans have been held back by excuses.
Yanks have played 8 games, 1/2 game our of first place. I thought if I waited a while after the game, maybe there would not still being dissections posted. Wrong, sadly wrong.
Thinking Hughes would be made different by further time in the minors is the epitome of fantasy.
igotid88 April 14th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
“Possibly, but he has to be given full seasons.”
I’m not sure that he has to be given another full season. It is getting late for Hughes if he is going to make a case for himself to remain a Yankee. If Freddy continues to struggle, then the urgency to make a move will grow.
“That’s the problem with pitching for the Yankees. You’re 1 bad start from people giving up on you. People love Phelps now until he gives up 10 runs in his next start.”
You’re absolutely right about this. However, I’m not sure that it applies in Hughes’s case. Hughes has been given lots of chances. I won’t complain much when Cashman pulls the trigger on Hughes.
@ MTU maybe a combination of both SSS and the real deal.
MTU -
Phelps has been doing it all through ST. I think Hughes gets more chances than he deserves, because he’s Phil Hughes. If Nova was stinking up the place, he’d be back playing AAA ball, count on it.
Phil has been enabled and coddled and had his hinee wiped for him since 18. Nova has been doubted, dismissed, demoted.
It’s absurd.
MTU April 14th, 2012 at 5:09 pm
Serious question.
Is Phelps as good as he looks because he looks just awesome to me ?
Is this just SSS or is he the real deal ?
He was masterful out there today. Only made one mistake.
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He looks very sharp and very poised. The work that he had in the minors shows. However, the big question is how will Phelps respond to getting hit? The ability to adjust always what separates the wheat from the chaff.
Hughes FB is excellent again.
And he has definitely made progress with the CU.
His other 2ndary offerings still need further refinement.
Jeff Karstens turned out to be a better pitcher than Phil Hughes. Ian Kennedy was more obvious back in the day.
Against All Odds says:
April 14, 2012 at 5:02 pm
Possibly, but he has to be given full seasons.
—————–
07- called up early
08- given a spot
09- called up but was sent to the pen
10-given a spot
11-given a spot
12- given a spot
He’s been given seasons just hasn’t come through.
———————
Being given a spot and pitching full seasons are not the same thing.
Ghost-
He seemed to do fine after the homer.
He walked the next batter but came back to K the final guy.
He seems to be alwyas around the plate with quality strikes.
I love that. Generally does not seem to hurt himself.
His pitches all move really well.
The more I watch him the more I like him.
I just wonder if he can sustain this level of performance ?
Bucholtz isn’t fairing any better than Hughes…..and that’s a much bigger deal.for them…..they don’t have Pettite or Pineda…..or even Phelps
MTU -
Talk about fantacy baseball ………… Hughes FB was right around 91 -92 most pitches, when in the past he sat at 93-94. His CB looked good, but, he gets ahead, and can’t finish it off on a regulas basis.
Do you believe had Nova pitched this way in 2 starts he’d still be in the rotation, I don’t.
My point is he’s been given chances to start. More chances than any other starter. He should be better in his next start. I would be surprised if he’s not
BIG AL April 14th, 2012 at 5:10 pm
4 NYY -
Did you not see yesterdays game?
======================
5 runs is not total destruction.
I did, but I’m talking about a few yrs., not one game here or there. Overall picture of past few yrs. ( 3 yrs. or so )
We used to hammer Beckett a ways back, not anymore. King Felix plays with us. Verlander kills us. People like that.
“Thinking Hughes would be made different by further time in the minors is the epitome of fantasy.”
Because 26 year old pitchers who have had prior ML success and still throw up to 94 mph are so easy to find, but should still be discarded at any sign of uneven development?
Blake-
Do you sense another potential implosion in Boston ?
MTU, keep in mind that Phelps’ stuff may be playing up better in the pen, like almost all pitchers. Regardless, it would be ridiculous in my opinion to remove Phil before either Pineda or Andy are ready just so Phelps can give it a go for a start or two only to be put back to the pen. They should just leave him where he is.
As to Phil, he’s got a couple of starts probably to show improvement, and I’m rooting for him big time, but it’s hard not to be frustrated by his constant inability to put hitters away. His stuff is back, but back means 92; he’s not that hard thrower that he was in the minors.
Odd how similar this board looks after a win and a loss. The trolls (and everyone knows who they are, don’t they Carlo?) are saying the same idiotic things and the “fans” whine about the same idiotic things.
“MTU, keep in mind that Phelps’ stuff may be playing up better in the pen, like almost all pitchers”
This is really only true of pitchers who pitch short stints. That’s not what Phelps did today.
I asked this question earlier…..how long does Phelps have to pitch well before they realistically start to think about putting hin in the rotation? Nova has had to basically give then no choice to get a shot and then stick…
They fired the wrong guy in Boston last year.
blake April 14th, 2012 at 5:18 pm
Bucholtz isn’t fairing any better than Hughes…..and that’s a much bigger deal.for them…..they don’t have Pettite or Pineda…..or even Phelps
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I seem to recall Bucky being declared an ace in here by some. LOL
Calling the Pirates, we have one more pitcher you’d love to add to your roster, and he’s much cheaper!
Al-
I think it’s a matter of finding out what they have once and for all.
This is Hughes last shot.
I am pulling for him because the more good young pitchers we have the better.
There are lot’s of people who seem to benipping at his heels though.
That should not and cannot be ignored if Hughes does not perform.
The contrast between Phil and David out there today was pretty stark.
I hope Hughes really nails one the next time out.
Rich, but how short-sighted is it really? He’s struggled for a long time as a starter; the only time he’s really shown very good stuff is the pen and even then he had issues putting hitters away. The problem is that he still has the propensity to make mistakes at the worst times and he hasn’t improved in putting hitters away. He’s only under team control for 2 more years. I think he’s the one to go when Andy or Pineda return. I would rather see in at AAA then in the pen, but if he goes to AAA, he’s not ever going to be a part of this team, so that’s not an ideal option either. Putting him in the pen is a waste because he’ll be a 5th inning guy, but it might be where he’s best suited.
MTU,
I think losing Jacoby is huge for Boston…..Buchhoktz isn’t the same guy he was two years ago so far.
blake April 14th, 2012 at 5:22 pm
I asked this question earlier…..how long does Phelps have to pitch well before they realistically start to think about putting hin in the rotation? Nova has had to basically give then no choice to get a shot and then stick…
=
Good point. The bright side is that Phelps looks to have that kind of bulldog personality. He won’t let himself be phased by the Yanks passing him over. In the end, forcing Nova to earn the spot made him tougher, and it shows in how he pitches.
My hope was Hughes would come out of the gate strong like he did in 2010. Build his value and become a trade chip by the deadline for a decent bat.
He does not have the upside of Pena or Nova (IMO). Phelps also is making the case to become a back-end starter, if not this year, then next year. Having this stable of young, talented pitchers after trading Hughes would get their payroll in order for 2014.
Problem is, Hughes does not have much trade value now. He still has time to turn it around. But his location is off and fastball velocity is down from 2010
“I asked this question earlier…..how long does Phelps have to pitch well before they realistically start to think about putting hin in the rotation?”
Curiously, Waldman said in the postgame that they don’t have to make a decision on Hughes because neither Pettitte nor Pineda are ready.
Perhaps he isn’t publicly showing his hand, which is understandable, but the media should be asking him (and Cashman) the question you pose.
Pineda, not Pena
Blake-
And Bailey and Crawford.
And Bard in the ro.
And a controversial new Mgr.
I think that team can be in trouble real quick.
They do not have the depth to cover.
Rich, that’s true. I still think it makes no sense as he’d have to be removed anyway, but then again, perhaps Pineda won’t be ready. Once Phil is removed from the rotation here, he’ll never see it again. So, if I’m the Yankees, I give him as many chances as possible until they are forced to make a decision.
Has he really struggled for a long time when healthy, Betsy? The last time he was healthy was 2010, and he showed signs of being a #3.
Hughes’ fastball was not consistently “flat” today, ala Curry. He threw a couple of gimmes over the plate but generally he had nice combo on velo and late movement on his fastball today. The problem is giving up a jack with guys on…
Rich in NJ April 14th, 2012 at 5:26 pm
Has he really struggled for a long time when healthy, Betsy? The last time he was healthy was 2010, and he showed signs of being a #3.
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For about the first 2 or 3 months of the season.
“Once Phil is removed from the rotation here, he’ll never see it again”
Assuming he continues to struggle in his next start or two (who knows if he will?), and he goes to the mL and re-establishes himself, there will almost certainly be an opening in the rotation for some period of time this season.
What I like about Phelps is that he catches the ball, toes the rubber, and throws to the target, as if he knows what he’s doing.
how long does Phelps have to pitch well before they realistically start to think about putting hin in the rotation?
————
Probably middle of May
MTU -
I’ve always been a huge Phil Hughes fan, from his days in SWB, through his Yankees career, but, one has to also be honest when looking at players. Just because a player wears the Yankee uniform does not make him the best, but, I love my team and root hard for them. I also recognize the fact that the team needs the best players they have on the field, even it that means sitting the one the fans love, for the new kid coming up. Nova was given a chance, and he proved he deserved it, now, give Phelps that chance, you may be surprised, or sorry, but he’s shown he does deserve the shot.
As good as Phelps has been so far, and it’s been pretty impressive, remember that he’s also a fly ball pitcher, moreso than a ground ball pitcher.
GW
That was his first full season in the ML as a starter. Almost every young starter has a development curve to surmount. And if you look at his starts on a team by team basis, he was actually pretty good (although not great), save for the BJays and Angels:
http://www.baseball-reference......;t=p#oppon
Rich, the 2nd half of 2010 he was awful. I feel sorry for him because he was a kid who dominated HS and the minors and then was staring at a 2nd start no-hitter, but unfortunately, he has serious flaws that he doesn’t seem able to fix. He worked hard this off-season, no doubt, but sometimes no matter how hard you try, you just can’t executed. I’m definitely not ready to dump him from the rotation even despite Phelps, but someone is going when Andy/Pineda return and unless Freddy tanks, it’s likely to be Phil. He can’t put anyone away – it’s the most frustrating thing.
That may be true about the minors and re-establishing himself (though if he dominates, does it really matter), but it’s really for spot starts. I think the Yankees will just stick him in the pen – and then it’s for good. If he’s still here for 2 years, it will be very difficult for him to remake himself as a starter again.
Betsy
That’s not true. Yes, had some bad games, but they skew the overall picture, which was far more mixed:
http://www.baseball-reference......;year=2010
GB-
Phelps looks like a no-ball Pitcher as almost no one seems to be able to hit him all that much.
Is he this good, or do think he is overachieving and will be exposed with continued use ?
If there was a pitcher with Hughes’ history and pedigree pitching and struggling for another team, he is exactly the type of guy that Cashman would look to buy cheaply as a reclamation project. Why can’t the Yankees do that with their own pitcher?
But Rich, those bad games count…….he was good at the end against the Rays and Sox, but then was beyond awful in the post-season. I’m not giving up on him yet, but I also don’t see that he’s anything special and he is on borrowed time whether we like it or not.
GB7 -
You may be correct, but, I seem to remember Phelps as more of a GB pitcher.
Sure they count, Betsy, but that doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t be afforded an opportunity to redirect his career, even in the mL, if necessary.
IMO, giving up on him is putting him in the pen.
Rich, his pedigree has mostly been in the minors. Why can’t the Yankees do it? Because they have a lot of very promising pitchers in the minors, because Phil is soon to be 26 and not that young anymore and because he’s coming up on FA. They’d have to ask themselves what they really think his potential is. If it’s just a backend starter, that he’s not worth the time and effort. If a reliever, then the same applies.
Al-
I understand. I support him too.
It’s just that the Yankees now seem to have so much talent.
I guess it’s a great problem to have.
What to do ? What to do ?
Perhaps Hughes had a fastball that allowed him to cover his mistakes in the minors, but it is being exposed now. The Yankees clearly did not impress upon him the need to develop his secondary pitches in the minors. A change, a splitter or something. Beyond his stuff, he is now a fairly predictable pitcher. He does not have the pitchability to keep hitters off balance right now. That is a failure of the Yankees development system. They fell in love with his fastball, which is frankly mediocre right now.
Rich in NJ April 14th, 2012 at 5:35 pm
Betsy
That’s not true. Yes, had some bad games, but they skew the overall picture, which was far more mixed:
http://www.baseball-reference……;year=2010
=========
Using that kind of an analysis, AJ doesn’t look that bad in 2011 either. The fact ios that Hughes seems prone to those one or two bad starts, just as he seems prone to making one or two bad pitches in a start. At some point, you have to think about whether you can seriously expect a player to get on a good solid run, and avoid the big mistakes…
MTU April 14th, 2012 at 5:36 pm
GB-
Phelps looks like a no-ball Pitcher as almost no one seems to be able to hit him all that much.
Is he this good, or do think he is overachieving and will be exposed with continued use ?
————————————————————————————————————————-
It helps that his pitches have a slight movement at the end. Whether it’s natural or something he does with the ball, I don’t know. He’s still more of a flyball pitche, but, as long as that movement continues, Phelps should do pretty well.
Betsy says:
April 14, 2012 at 5:32 pm
Rich, the 2nd half of 2010 he was awful.
—————–
He wasn’t awful. He wasn’t great but not awful. Especially in his first full season and the innings jump.
Rich, they could do that by sending him down, but I don’t know how you tell if he progresses down there given that he should dominate the kids. I agree that putting him in the pen means they’ve washed their hands of him. I hope he kills it next out.
So Betsy, the alternative is to then give up on his still-existing potential by either relegating him to being a 6th or 7th inning reliever, or giving him away in a trade. If that happens, forgive me if I say the Yankees are stupid.
GW
If Hughes was 34 and pitched three or more consecutive healthy seasons in the ML, I would agree with you. But since neither are true, how is the comparison apt?
Tucker, they removed him from games after 5 innings no matter the pitch count. I don’t think the Yankees did very well by Phil and I still think they rushed him in 2007, but in the end, as I believe with Joba, et. al., I believe players’ careers are on them. Some players mature early, some late – some stop developing, some were overhyped, some underhyped.
BIG AL April 14th, 2012 at 5:39 pm
GB7 -
You may be correct, but, I seem to remember Phelps as more of a GB pitcher.
————————————————————————————————————————-
he was AL. the pitches had a little more sink on them. I’m still looking at him to have more games like his last half of last year and fewer of these and the 2 last year against Oakland.
Rich in NJ April 14th, 2012 at 5:37 pm
If there was a pitcher with Hughes’ history and pedigree pitching and struggling for another team, he is exactly the type of guy that Cashman would look to buy cheaply as a reclamation project. Why can’t the Yankees do that with their own pitcher?
///
Their knees buckle at development, or they just don’t know how to accomplish it. I kind of can’t believe Hughes is being replaced by this blog after two starts, especially since he really had lively stuff today. And pitching to a lineup with Pujols in it probably isn’t a barrel of laughs.
Betsy says:
April 14, 2012 at 5:37 pm
But Rich, those bad games count…….he was good at the end against the Rays and Sox, but then was beyond awful in the post-season. I’m not giving up on him yet, but I also don’t see that he’s anything special and he is on borrowed time whether we like it or not.
——————————
He pitched a 7ip Or outing vs the Twins in the AlDS. He didn’t do well against Texas who hit everyone except Pettitte
GB-
Yes. I saw that. Everything seems to move.
Really nice 2-seamer, curve, and slider in addition to the 4 seam.
He seems to mix them well and hit his spots with regularity.
For example, He threw a series of sliders to Kendrick later in the game.
Kendrick just kept fouling them off until Phelps finally threw him one that he could not handle and he grounded out weakly.
My point is that one after another the the location stayed grreat and he never gave in.
Kendrick, though he had seen multiple sliders in a row, could not handle the pitch.
That’s a great sign to me.
It’s only one example of how many quality pitches Phelps threw today.
I don’t know if he just had a great day or not but he was really dealin’.
Rich, other pitchers might very well have more potential so at what point do you have to make a decision? The problem with him is that he’s being pushed, although Betances and Banuelos are having their own issues. I don’t disagree with you except to say that at some point, something has to give. First things first, though – he has to pitch well next out and he has to give them innings.
4-5 years of this is enough. Hughes is done. Too bad. The Yankees have a lot of pitching depth, and it’s time for someone else to get a shot.
He’s 26. No longer a rookie. Could be one of those guys like Ian Kennedy who are better outside of NY.
Yes, the Yankees “give up on the still-existing potential.” He’s had enough time, and enough excuses.
Maybe Randy was onto something when he said being a hyped pitching prospect in the Yankees system is like the kiss of death ?
Better to fly under the radar ?
Rich in NJ April 14th, 2012 at 5:44 pm
GW
If Hughes was 34 and pitched three or more consecutive healthy seasons in the ML, I would agree with you. But since neither are true, how is the comparison apt?
=======
The point is that you can’t continue to discount bad starts, and cherry-pick the stats that you like. At some point, the numbers are what they are.
GB7 -
Looking at todays game, Phelps was 5 GB and 5 FB. His stuff translates to his being more of a GB pitcher, IMO. Right now, he is simply getting the job done, and hasn’t skipped a beat since ST.
Me, I’d rather see guys in AAA get a shot, than going out looking for help elsewhere down the line.
J Alfred, not everyone wants him replaced; I don’t………..not for Phelps, not for anyone yet. However, I have to say that I don’t get why the “stuff” matters; execution does. As to the Angels, sure they’re a very good lineup, but that’s all there is basically in the AL East and for much of the AL.
JAP
This is not “two games.” It’s 5 years. An ERA of 5.5 for the last two. When do you start saying he’s blocking the development of other guys, say Phelps for example?
Igotid, CC is allowed just a tad more leeway than Phil, who was just terrible. i know about the Twins game, but he had exceptional stuff that night against a team that was toast. He does not come close to that on a consistent basis. I’m sorry, I don’t think I’m being particularly hard on him, but I think you’re being rather soft.
Hughes need to pitch better…..but the Yanks are going to give hin more than two starts …..as they should
J. Alfred Prufrock April 14th, 2012 at 5:47 pm
Rich in NJ April 14th, 2012 at 5:37 pm
If there was a pitcher with Hughes’ history and pedigree pitching and struggling for another team, he is exactly the type of guy that Cashman would look to buy cheaply as a reclamation project. Why can’t the Yankees do that with their own pitcher?
///
Their knees buckle at development, or they just don’t know how to accomplish it. I kind of can’t believe Hughes is being replaced by this blog after two starts, especially since he really had lively stuff today. And pitching to a lineup with Pujols in it probably isn’t a barrel of laughs.
============
Phelps faced that same lineup today, and fared much better. Phelps looked like the guy that has had MLB experience.
I’m not saying that I’m ready to pull the plug on Hughes. But I am ambivalent at this point, and I’m tired of defending him.
I’m going to give Young Master Philip another couple starts at minimum, then we’ll see how he’s looking.
Executive decision.
What does it say about “fans” when you want a pitcher to do well just so you can trade him? No wonder people are giving up on Hughes after 2 starts. He can do no right by these people. They hide when he’s pitching well.
“The point is that you can’t continue to discount bad starts, and cherry-pick the stats that you like. At some point, the numbers are what they are.”
GW
Where does cherry-picking leave off and contextualizing begin?
The issue, imo, is Hughes, despite his struggles, is still a 26 year old asset with some upside.
Now, perhaps the ML is not where he should be right now, or in a few starts, but the smart business play is to find a way to make the ROI payoff. The mL is the best place to do that.
Betsy says:
April 14, 2012 at 5:45 pm
Tucker, they removed him from games after 5 innings no matter the pitch count.
——————–
That’s what bugged me about Joe. I sometimes wished they went by the Nolan Ryan philosophy and let the pitchers pitch. Especially when there was no need for the early hook. Which accounts for higher ERAs if you don’t have those extra innings to bring them down.
Nick-
Seconded. For now.
But if Phil Phails to peform as we hope he will, and Phelps continues to handle his impossible mission
I may seek a recall election and another vote on the matter.
I hope we do not have to exercise that option.
I like doing tributes and I hope you like going to In N Out.
Are posts going through?
“When do you start saying he’s blocking the development of other guys, say Phelps for example?”
In the past, they have signed virtually flotsam/jetsam like Carlos Silva and stuck him in the AAA rotation.
So the idea that Hughes would be blocking anyone when they let the Silvas of the world do that seems inaccurate.
The way things are going I may have to shift my allegiances and start doing tributes for Phelps.
I hope not.
Everyone said get rid of AJ, but, AJ has been a better pitcher ERA wise than Phil over the same period of time.
Kind of makes you think, lol.
“Kind of makes you think, lol.”
Think that the analogy is silly? Yes.
“Yes, the Yankees “give up on the still-existing potential.” He’s had enough time, and enough excuses.”
What is he being excused from?
I heard the same thing about IPK.
Rich-
What do you think of Phelps ?
Ghostwriter says:
April 14, 2012 at 5:51 pm
Rich in NJ April 14th, 2012 at 5:44 pm
GW
If Hughes was 34 and pitched three or more consecutive healthy seasons in the ML, I would agree with you. But since neither are true, how is the comparison apt?
=======
The point is that you can’t continue to discount bad starts, and cherry-pick the stats that you like. At some point, the numbers are what they are.
————
Same can be said about picking bad starts
MTU
I thought he had the kind of talent to be a good enough starter that they wouldn’t have to trade for a starter.
I’m not sure that he is ultimately more than a #4, but he does seem to have pitchabilty which makes his stuff play up even better.
Betsy April 14th, 2012 at 5:52 pm
J Alfred, not everyone wants him replaced; I don’t………..not for Phelps, not for anyone yet. However, I have to say that I don’t get why the “stuff” matters; execution does. As to the Angels, sure they’re a very good lineup, but that’s all there is basically in the AL East and for much of the AL.
///
The stuff matters because he had a dead arm last year. He was throwing 92-94 today with life. He’s now willing to throw his change and today, he actually threw some decent curves. The crusher was the 3-run homer. I understand ST’s over and the temporal matters now, but the guy is 26 years old and he’s back to throwing a fastball with oomph. This isn’t the time to fold on Phil Hughes.
The Yankees’ problem with young arms is they have been half-as*ed about it; Cashman and his minions react like people who blog on the internet. Commit to the guy for a longer stretch and see where the rediscovered fastball and his secondary stuff take him; wringing hands every time these guys stub their toe is ridiculous. Even with Pineda, the GM was saying “If he doesn’t develop that change, we’ll have made a mistake….” Regardless of my view independently of the of the trade – you DON’T make that kind of preemptive cover-your-as* comment about a young guy whom you’ve just traded for; way to put undue pressure on the kid and show him you have his back (not). The Joba stuff was vaudeville; he is a starter, he isn’t a starter, the four-inning stints, etc. Rothschild needs to nip this stuff in the bud and end the amateur hour around here.
I have to get dinner. Later.
*sorry, Hughes is 25
Rich in NJ -
Silly, very much so, but the bottom line is neither have been, or were an asset to the team for quite some time. Throwing 3-5 innings per start does not get it done, no matter who the pitcher is.
Right now, I’m more concerned about how CC is pitching, but I realize he tends to be a slow starter. To me this means he needs more innings in ST, not less or the same.
It’s way too early to say much about Phelps except he seems to have a good arm and poise. Let’s see what happens when teams get a better book on him and he has to face the same big league hitters over and over again.
“He’s 26. No longer a rookie. Could be one of those guys like Ian Kennedy who are better outside of NY.”
Ian Kennedy was never given a real shot in NY. By management or fans
Good night folks, y’all have a great evening.
Rich-
Right now, from what you see, would you say that Phelps represents a better overall package than Hughes ?
And if you agree, what can Phil improve upon that would bring him up to that standard ?
Phelps just commands everything. All 4 pitches. And they seem to be quality offerings.
What 3 pitches can you see matching Phelps with any time soon ?
Again. Just curiosity. No traps here.
The elephant in the room NO ONE is talking about is the Yanks don’t have a real/true #2 starter behind Sabathia they need to go all the way.
Most of you who complain about the offense don’t realize that no #2 is the reason. If the Yanks had a #2, they wouldn’t need to score as many runs.
There is absolutely no guarantee Cole Hamels will sign with the Yanks as he might decide he likes it in Philly and wants to stay and why not? It’s a great baseball and sports town, he won a World Series with them, he’s been with them since day one etc. If the Yanks don’t get Hamels, who could they sign who’s on par with him? No one. Weaver and Cain got extended, and Grienke has a history of mental problems. Thanks to SF inexplicably giving Cain what they gave him, the Yanks or whoever will have to offer Hamels more years and money than SF gave Cain.
‘Problem is the Yanks have it in their deluded heads that they can win it all with bargain-basement pitchers and farm help after CC and make a ton of money from getting the payroll down to a certain point whenever. They can’t and they won’t. They’re not winning the World Series this year without a true/real #2 behind CC no matter how well they hit. You tell me “The 2009 Yanks didn’t have a true/real #2″ well, alot of things went/had to go right for them to make up for that. Burnett had his only good year as a Yankee and stepped up big time in Game 2 of the 2009 World Series, Chamberlain had his only full season as a starter and was decent, Pettitte returned and was good, Sabathia showed why the Yanks gave him a record contract, and Hughes was a solid setup man.
Will Kuroda, Nova, Garcia, Pineda, any two, all three, or all four equal or better their 2011s?
Will 2012 Pettitte be as good as 2009-10 Pettitte?
Will 2012 Hughes be anywhere close to 2010 Hughes?
Who is the starter for the wildcard game if CC couldn’t pitch it?
What starter throws 3 or 4 scoreless innings if CC gets knocked out in the first or second inning of the wildcard game?
Who is the Game 3 for the Yanks if they’re down 0-2 in the 2012 ALDS?
WAYYYYYY too many questions.
Cashman has to make another trade for another starter or give Cole Hamels what he wants if he can’t land a starter via trade.
I call for him doing both. I want a solid 1-2 like SF has, 2-3 aces depending on how you look at Lee like Philly has, that’s right.
If Phil keeps flopping, I don’t think it’ll be Phelps who replaces him, unless Phil gets really bad really fast.
But the upside of Phelps looking so good so far is that he may become a viable option, but we’re not there yet in any respect.
And Phil can still win some games and hold his spot; he’s not the same dead-arm shlub we saw last year, at least from where I’m sitting.
raymagnetic April 14th, 2012 at 6:09 pm
“He’s 26. No longer a rookie. Could be one of those guys like Ian Kennedy who are better outside of NY.”
Ian Kennedy was never given a real shot in NY. By management or fans
//
No, he wasn’t, but it’s one of those un-truths that gets repeated so much it passes for truth. Kennedy was traded; he did not fail in NY.
Last year, hughes should never have been on the active roster to start the season. he should have gone from ST 60 the 60 Day DL. It was obvious that he was hurting somewhere. In the 2nd half, I’ll take the 8 good to outstanding starts over 3 bad starts for every 11 starts any time, from any pitcher.
Betsy says:
April 14, 2012 at 5:53 pm
Igotid, CC is allowed just a tad more leeway than Phil, who was just terrible. i know about the Twins game, but he had exceptional stuff that night against a team that was toast. He does not come close to that on a consistent basis. I’m sorry, I don’t think I’m being particularly hard on him, but I think you’re being rather soft
—————————
So you’re saying he’s never had good starts on a consistent basis? Maybe I’m being soft but I’ve seen what he can do when he’s right. Even late last year when his stuff wasn’t all the way back he still put on a string of good to great starts. People here claim he doesn’t show toughness. And that’s bull. It’s April and his 2nd start. A couple of missed locations and a missed play. And he’s done? I want to see him get to 180ip. Then pitch next year to 195ip. And by 28 yrs old we will see what he is. But it doesn’t look like would be given that chance.
the offense is feast and famine so far… my worries is as of last year..when hrs dont come …can they string together hits against quality pitchers. that is even more of a concern in the playoffs… If Hughes continue to stink then remove him from rotation but way too early to make that assessment.
Phelps will be on the team for a month or so and then he will go down to AAA to continue to learn how to be a sucessful starting pitcher. He has been very good as a middle releiver but for gods sake he has only pitch 7 inning in the majors and he still has a lot to learn and the Yankees have plenty of other candidates who are more appropriate choices to start in the Majors this year.
Hughes is a bit of a puzzle when he came up his stuff was good but not great but he was touted as having tremendous command of his fastball that set him a part from the other prospects. He had some sucess as both a starter and a releiver (actually similar to Joba). Then he lost his stuff last year and got hit pretty hard. This year his very good but not great stuff seems to be back but he has lost the command tha used to set him apart fromthe rest. Hopefully the command and stuff will come together and he will become a valuable part of the Yankee rotation or at least a valuable trade chip.
The Yankees are not going to sign Cole Hamels. They have already staked their path.
“I’m going to give Young Master Philip another couple starts at minimum, then we’ll see how he’s looking.
Executive decision.”
We have a quorum.
Badenbreak for Badenhop in Boston.
J. Alfred Prufrock April 14th, 2012 at 6:14 pm
raymagnetic April 14th, 2012 at 6:09 pm
“He’s 26. No longer a rookie. Could be one of those guys like Ian Kennedy who are better outside of NY.”
Ian Kennedy was never given a real shot in NY. By management or fans
//
No, he wasn’t, but it’s one of those un-truths that gets repeated so much it passes for truth. Kennedy was traded; he did not fail in NY.
——————————————————————-
It’s not that Kennedy failed or didn’t fail in NY in 2009 cuz he sure did in 2008, there was no room for Kennedy on the 2010 Yankees. The Yanks just came off winning a World Series with a front four of Sabathia/Burnett/Pettitte/Chamberlain and envisioned Hughes as the starter to complete the 2010 rotation. In their eyes they thought two kids making peanuts and three homegrown guys to go with our post-2008 failure offseason splashes. ‘Problem was Burnett sucked and Chamberlain wasn’t good enough to be a starter all year in 2010 despite Hughes being solid. What did Kennedy do at AAA or for the Yankees in 2009 to earn a rotation slot on the 2010 team? He barely pitched for the Yanks in 2009. ‘Dude pitched exactly ONE inning for the 2009 Yanks where he walked two guys, hit a guy, and struck out a guy. Let’s make him the #4 or #5 starter on that. C’mon. Hindsight is 20/20.
Kennedy has had two nice seasons with Arizona including a great one with them last year, but let’s call it like it is:
He pitches under zero pressure, doesn’t have to face the DH save maybe a start or two a year, and pitches to a much weaker bottom of the order with the pitcher batting. You cannot say for certainty he would do the same for the Yanks where he’s facing the DH and much tougher lineups (Boston, Detroit etc.) as well the pressure and expectations you have when you’re pitching for the Yanks, especially when you have no track record. Look at Hughes and Garcia today. Both are on the hotseat already as they should be. Hughes has to show he can be like he was in 2010 and Garcia has to show last year was no fluke. Pettitte and Pineda will replace them if they continue to suck. Nova could be replaced if he sucks. Three or four bad starts in a row by Kuroda and Pettitte could replace him, if Kuroda is bad enough and Pettitte arrives before Pineda.
J Alfred, I’m fine with the trade, but Cashman’s comments were incredibly stupid and yes, they put more pressure on Pineda.
I don’t miss IPK because we have Granderson…………
With all this pitching I need a drink.
This isn’t the minor leagues. Cheering about Hughes throwing a nice pitch here and there is for the minor leagues. Not for Yankee Stadium. People don’t pay and cheer to watch him throw a few nice pitches and pat him on the back. They pay and cheer to watch him go out and do what Phelps did today at the stadium.
He could have held the game after the fluke HR, but he didn’t. Why? More excuses. He fell apart, threw too many pitches, couldn’t get himself out of jams, etc.
Girardi had Phelps up so early he was shadowing him. It’s the same narrative with him again and again & the only reason some people have patience with him is because Baseball America told you he was destined to be the one.
Outside of 1/2 a good season as a starter and 1/2 a good season as a reliever and few glimpses littered since 2007 I don’t see why the unconditional love is there.
Phelps looks ready to claim his spot not to mention Andy coming soon. Phelps had far better stuff than Hughes.
We’re supposed to cheer little victories like him throwing a ball that moves or showing 2 good curves a game.
He needs to be in the minor leagues and he needs to be given the Hallyday treatment. Send him to A ball, find a pitching coach to reinvent him and have him earn his way back up each level. If he doesn’t like it, tough. Nova went down, took it like a man and actually learned a new pitch in a few weeks.
Right now, his starts feel like AJ’s where the pen is on red alert from the first pitch.
As for the offense, I remember when the Yankee hitters used to feel in control at the plate. Like they had the patience to wait until the pitcher on the mound threw them their pitch and they’d rip it. A lot of this group is incapable of doing that. They seem like they are at the mercy of the pitcher.
Maybe that’s baseball in general post PED’s, but it feels so much different watching these hitters feeling like they’re at the disadvantage. There’s too much guessing, lunging, etc. The patience this offense was built on feels like it’s in it’s waning days when you watch them sometimes. Hitters just seem overmatched too often.
Not too long ago, our hitters made the pitcher feel overmatched just walking out to the mound.
“With all this pitching I need a drink.”
What kind of brew are we serving tonight MTU?
“Ian Kennedy was never given a real shot in NY. By management or fans”
Yep. We were going nowhere in 08 and he spent time in the minors after injury because we had the immotal Darrell Rasner in the rotation
They then removed Rasner from the rotation after months of sucking to give Kennedy a start against the Angels. He had a bad start, so then he was shipped back to AAA and Rasner was back in the rotation
Great way to develop a guy they had big plans for at the beginning of the year. Team was going nowhere, yet Rasner, Ponson, and Pavano were pitching in the games and sucking too.
Duh Innings April 14th, 2012 at 6:13 pm
The elephant in the room NO ONE is talking about is the Yanks don’t have a real/true #2 starter behind Sabathia they need to go all the way.
I think you need new glasses because that elephant you see is actually a mouse. Kuroda is a legitimate #2 starter if he falters Petite is a legitimate #2 starter if they both prove to be too old and/or injured Pineda was a #2 caliber pitch for at least the first half of last year and there is a good reason to hope he will be that good again. So far this season Nova appears to be a number 2 or 3 caliber starting pitcher but it is probably to early to give that to him just yet. Hughes and Garcia have had some problems lately but they are significantly better than the bottom of the rotation guys you see on ither teams like the Red Sox. Pitching is not an enormousl problem for the yankees right now.
As a matter of fact neither is hitting the Tex situation is a bit of a concern right now but it is still very early and everybody else in the infield and the centerfielder are capable of winning the MVP award this year. The left fielder is the best defensive outfielder in baseball and the fastest baserunner and the rightfielder has been doing pretty good lately. Relax this is a very good team.
G Love
I like to think I am more of a glass half full kind of guy, but I can’t say I strongly disagree with your post.
I do think Phil needs a couple of more starts. The offense is weird right now, I ‘m not quite sure what to make of it. I do agree that CJ Wilson wasn’t afraid of our line-up, and that needs to change.
New Thread
Tar-
Just plain old brewski.
Nothin’ fancy.
As long as it has the essential ingredient.
I’d like some Jose Curevo about now but I’m too lazy to go out and get some.
Tar,
He’ll get more starts. I think they’re committed to him until Andy is ready. He has to step up and do something soon with it to keep his spot though. I’d much rather he turn into the pitcher he could be than us keep a stopgap like Freddy blocking younger guys paths.
But it’s time to put up or shut up. 2 more starts like this one and I think he’s getting the Hallyday treatment if the team can still send him down.
His trade value is nil right now.
Til hughes stops falling in love with his fb,and only using his curve,and changeup as a show me pitch,and learns how too throw them,in any count,for strikes,with good results,hitters are not going too respect him,and sit on his fb.
In 2 strike counts,hitters shorten their swing making hughes fb less of a weapon.If i am hughes,in my next start,have him throw only cutters,curves,changeups,til the hitter adjusts.
EA
Kennedy wasn’t making any more of a difference on the 2008 Yanks than Rasner, Ponson, or Pavano. Pavano was making too much money not to pitch and Ponson was more of a known quantity than Kennedy. albeit he blew. Rasner beat Kennedy for a rotation slot that year.
You can’t say Kennedy would’ve done well and FYI he pitched more than one start vs. the Angels.
You’re looking more at 2010-11 Kennedy than 2007-2009 which was a guy not good enough to crack the Yankees rotation out of three spring trainings. He wasn’t even good enough to pitch more than an inning for the 2009 Yanks.
BTW the Yanks will most likely pursue Hamels if not sign him, to the absolutist who wrote the Yanks won’t sign him like he knows what’s up when he doesn’t. My guess fella.
“I’d like some Jose Curevo about now but I’m too lazy to go out and get some.”
Patron is like a staple around my house.
But Cuervo is good for the strawberry Margy’s.
Hello everyone,
Missed the start of the game and missed most of the middle innings as well, just saw one inning from Phelps and three from Hughes. My two cents:
Hughes: had a good FB, better CB but in the innings i saw didn’t see many changes. The quality of his offerings is inconsistent, therefore his inability to put away the batters quickly.
Phelps: He looked amazing period, 4 pitches with great command and pitchability. Even though in the inning i saw, he was squeezed big time by the ump. I think he struckout Aybar at least three times in one at bat.
At this moment in time, i’ll say Phelps is the better pitcher.
G Love
I agree, put up or shut up time.
I know it’s against the odds but I feel that he’s going to shock everybody and put up. We will find out soon enough.
Yankees aren’t going after Hamels that’s why they traded for Pineda
If you guys ever want to have a low carb margarita, get a pint glass with ice, put 1.5 shots of good tequila in it, get one of the juice reamers and put fresh lime juice with a little pulp in the glass (usually 1 big lime or 2 small) and then top it off with seltzer (I like using raspberry seltzer). It’s much better for you than adding in some of the ingredients in a regular margarita.
Tar – I hope you’re right about Hughes. I have my doubts, but the Yankees are going to give him a shot until they are forced to make a decision.
G. Love
Sounds great. Yeah we use all fresh ingredients in our Margarita’s, we never use the mix.
Against All Odds April 14th, 2012 at 6:58 pm
Yankees aren’t going after Hamels that’s why they traded for Pineda
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Wrong. Nowhere does it say that. Alot of people who work for the Yankees front office on here.
I predict the Yanks will at least pursue Hamels if not sign him.
New Thread guys =====>
Will they check in sure but will they sign him no. If this was a couple if yrs ago I would be right there with you but there is no way they can sign Hamels, resign Cano and Granderson and make other moves.
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To all you “We should’ve kept Ian Kennedy” mor ons:
Ian Kennedy with the 2008 Yankees:
8.17 ERA in 9 GS (10 G total) vs. 2008 Rasner’s 5.40 ERA in 20 GS (24 GS)
Rasner was no prize either, but he was 2.77 runs better than “IPK” in over double the starts IPK made.
IPK made exactly ONE good start: his seventh (6 IP 4 H 1 R 1 ER vs. the shi tty Orioles 5/22.)
He was awful in the game he didn’t start (3 IP 2 ER in a 4-0 loss to the shi tty Royals 4/9, so he put the game further out of the reach.)
Yeah, let’s give a rotation slot to a 8.17 ERA starter the year after the Yanks miss the postseason in a season not cut short by a strike for the first time since 1993.
Let’s give him a rotation slot for a year after he pitched exactly ONE inning for the Yanks (2009) – a scoreless inning where he walked two guys, hit one, and struck out one.
Pure comedy gold on here.
Against All Odds April 14th, 2012 at 7:11 pm
Will they check in sure but will they sign him no. If this was a couple if yrs ago I would be right there with you but there is no way they can sign Hamels, resign Cano and Granderson and make other moves.
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Spot on.
How many career games did Kennedy start for the Yankees 12 maybe 13
Against All Odds April 14th, 2012 at 7:11 pm
Will they check in sure but will they sign him no. If this was a couple if yrs ago I would be right there with you but there is no way they can sign Hamels, resign Cano and Granderson and make other moves.
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Let’s say they can’t afford to re-sign Cano and Granderson AND sign Hamels, they can have only two of the three. I would pick Hamels and Cano, and if the Yanks had brains in their heads, they would do the same. You’re assuming Granderson will be good enough in 2014 to warrant a long-term contract after 2013, assuming he has a good enough 2012 to have his 2013 club option picked uo (his 2011 probably all but sealed that but maybe not.) ‘Dude has to play 2012-13 first. So does Hamels, but Hamels is a free agent after this year, Granderson could and probably will be one after next. You can’t pass on Hamels cuz of what Granderson MIGHT do in 2014-??? Grandyman isn’t in his 20s anymore and what if he doesn’t hit lefties anymore again? That ain’t helping the Yanks if they draw David Price in the ALCS.
Ace pitcher in his late 20s / prime (Hamels) or guy entering his mid-30s / tail end of his prime (Granderson.) I’ll take Hamels, thanks. If it means trading Granderson in 2013 or letting him go after 2013, so be it. I’ll take an ace starting 2013 over a slugger starting 2014 any day of the week.
(BTW The Yanks could pick up the options on Cano and Granderson and sign Hamels, hence why I’m saying 2014.)
Against All Odds April 14th, 2012 at 7:25 pm
How many career games did Kennedy start for the Yankees 12 maybe 13
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Your point? He had a 8.17 ERA in 9 GS in 2008. ‘Not making the 2009 rotation after the Yanks missed the postseason in a season not cut short by a strike for the first time since 1993. He had more than a fair chance to show something to stay in the 2008 rotation and he didn’t. These are the Yankees not the Pirates.
Sabathia and Burnett were signed, Pettitte re-signed for the 2009 rotation. Chamberlain was put into the 2009 rotation. Wang was the ace of the 2008 staff before his season ended 6/15 and was healthy to start 2009. There was no room for Kennedy in the 2009 Yankees rotation to start the year. Now if you wanna say Kennedy should’ve been given a chance in 2009, again 8.17 ERA the year before. The Yanks didn’t want to fool around for 2009.
You made some good points about Grandy but they still aren’t going to do it. Blake and many others have gone through this more than once. They traded for Pineda and stockpiled pitching because they no longer want to pay a ton for it unless it’s a no brainer pitcher. I would love to see Hamels as a Yankee for all the reasons you stated but the FO is not going to make that type of monetary commitment.
Lol 9 starts is a fair chance give me a.break.
My biggest problem with Granderson as a long-term / beyond 2013 Yankee is he becomes a 10 & 5 player late into or after 2014, his first season under his new contract and fifth season overall with the Yanks (I’m unsure when that status / his service time kicks in as he began his career with Detroit in 2004) which means he’s untradeable on that 10 & 5 status alone.
If the Yanks signed Hamels their 2013 rotation could be this:
Sabathia/Hamels/Pineda/Two from Nova, Hughes, and Pettitte in any order (Pettitte and either Nova or Hughes if Pettitte re-signed for 2013 only)
The last three guys would be making very little, two peanuts (Pineda and Nova) and that includes if Pettitte took another year and $2.5M.
$18M would be freed up letting go of Kuroda ($10M), Garcia ($4M), and Feliciano ($4M.)
Make it $33-33.5M if Mo retires as he’s making $15-15.5M this season.
If they let go of Swisher, they free up his 2012 salary minus the 2013 salary of the new guy if their RF costs less than Swisher.
If Pettitte re-signed for 2013 only, that could be two starters in their walk years (him and Hughes.)
I argue that the Yanks got Pineda so they could free up money to sign Hamels or a guy like him.
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Against All Odds April 14th, 2012 at 7:42 pm
Lol 9 starts is a fair chance give me a.break.
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What part of Sabathia/Wang/Burnett/Pettitte/Chamberlain was the rotation to start 2009 and Kennedy was an 8.17 ERA pitcher in 2008 do you not understand?
You do know Wang was the 2008 Yankees ace and ace-like #2 for 2009 (#3 if you considered Burnett the #2 – I didn’t), right?
There was no room or need for Kennedy in 2009, period, end of story, case closed.
I understand you take small sample sizes and make broad statements regarding Kennedy.
Ace like number in 09? Wang was a shell of himself that yr.
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So they traded their best hitting prospect to free up money for a pitcher even though everything thru have done tells us the last thing they want to do is add more big money to the payroll???? It’s not going to happen. Hamels is not.going to be a Yankee
Noesi looks mighty happy. Good for him.