The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Familiar problem exposed in Texas

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Apr 26, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Before the Rangers series opener, Joe Girardi called these three games a test to “see how good you are,” but I’m not sure the Yankees really learned much about themselves here in Texas.

They’ve always had faith that CC Sabathia would get going, they’ve trusted the Hiroki Kuroda would find some consistency, and they’ve known that a good starting pitcher — on a really good night — he can shutdown even deep and powerful lineup. Losing two out of three against a team like the Rangers didn’t teach the Yankees a whole lot, unless they needed to learn that they’re not a perfect team and can be beaten by a the team with the best record in the league.

The real issue with these three games is that it exposed what the Yankees already knew to be true: That they have a real problem in their rotation.

Sabathia and Kuroda pitched well this series, but the Yankees expect those two to pitch well this year. They’ve also come to expect that Ivan Nova will pitch well tomorrow. Their problem is that Phil Hughes and Freddy Garcia have been bad, and those struggles were only magnified by Michael Pineda’s season-ending injury, Andy Pettitte’s ongoing minor league process and the fact that D.J. Mitchell is the only Triple-A starter with an ERA below 5.25.

“I think we’re pitching deep, but like anything else, I think we have some of our guys have got to get going,” Brian Cashman said. “They’re better than what they’ve shown in the first three weeks of the season at the Major League level and Triple-A. Other guys we’re feeling really good about. Do I feel that we have depth? Yeah. You have to acknowledge, at the same time, we’ve got some guys that we’ve got to get on track.”

Maybe you’d prefer to give Mitchell or David Phelps a shot, but right now the Yankees don’t have a can’t-miss alternative to Hughes and Garcia. They’re choosing not to skip Garcia’s next turn because they need to have him pitch to get things sorted out. They’re also committed to Hughes, trusting that talent will eventually be enough for consistent success.

But how long is the rope?

“Every outing like this is disappointing in its own way,” Hughes said after last night’s letdown. “It’s tough to deal with. The last start wasn’t good by any means. None of them have been good, so it’s a tough thing to deal with. You just hope things get better before they get worse. I’ll do everything in my power and do my best to try to do that.”

Hughes is still having trouble putting away hitters. His fastball velocity has been good, but his location has been bad. His secondary pitches — including his curveball — are hit-or-miss. When he came to spring training, Hughes was pitching for a job. He needed to pitch well to give himself a chance to stick in the rotation. Now that the Yankees have little choice but to keep Hughes in the rotation, he has to pitch well to give them a chance to win some games.

“That’s the case all the time,” Hughes said. “Whether we have guys coming back up or not, I’m trying to get this thing right for the team more than anything. We need wins, and we need our guys to do their jobs. I’m just not doing it right now. I don’t think it really matters what the situation is. If you’re not performing, something has to change.”

The Yankees can’t stick with him forever. At some point, with both Hughes and Garcia, it will be time to roll the dice with someone else.

Associated Press photo

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458 Responses to “Familiar problem exposed in Texas”

  1. Yankee Trader April 26th, 2012 at 9:03 am

    MTU-

    Where did you get the info that the recovery rate is 50% or less, of pure labral tears with an intact rotator cuff?

    BD-
    I just read where Dr Altchek is doing the surgery, and Dr Ahmad will be in the room also.

  2. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:04 am

    YT-

    Responded in the previous thread.

    ;)

  3. spidanyc April 26th, 2012 at 9:05 am

    Hughes is not the only problem; what about AROD? He looks lost, old and confused at the plate.

  4. LGY April 26th, 2012 at 9:06 am

    Naming Hughes the third starter over Nova based on a handful of ST outings is another reason why if this team wants to build a staff around starting pitching, the current staff needs to be replaced.

    The current regime simply does not know how to properly evaluate pitching.

  5. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:08 am

    YT-

    If the Labrum and RT are torn together that just makes the situatuon evn worse and the prognosis
    more dismal.

    That said, a torn labrum by itself is still a bad injury.

    When a guy like Cashman says, “well at least the RT is intact” it’s a little like saying we got mauled by a Cougar instead of Lion.

    Not good in either case.

    That’s just putting lipstick on the pig IMO.

  6. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:10 am

    YT-

    Maybe he will be one of the luckier ones.

    I sure hope so.

    ;)

  7. Yankee Trader April 26th, 2012 at 9:11 am

    The Yankees can’t stick with him forever. At some point, with both Hughes and Garcia, it will be time to roll the dice with someone else.
    —————————————–

    Is that someone else Roy Oswalt. If his back is healthy, apparently he is possibly ready?

    I would hope that Garcia has a good outing vs the Tigers on Saturday, but with batters laying off his errant splitters in the dirt, he has absolutely nothing left in his arm to get batters out with his secondary stuff- especially the 74-84 mph junk that is being tossed up to the plate.

    Hughes in the bullpen would probably thrive. The Yankees have to make a decision soon, whether they send him down to work on his secondary pitches to remain a starter. This would increase his value to the team and as future trade bait before he reaches FA, where he might be gone anyway.

  8. Doc Iac April 26th, 2012 at 9:11 am

    canos 267 1 hr and 3 rbis anit helpin ether, arod and him need to get goin….

    …hughes, ugh, really what can u say…

  9. pkyankfan69 April 26th, 2012 at 9:12 am

    I’m surprised Freddy is going to pitch on Saturday. Having lost 2 in a row and facing Verlander on Friday, the Yankees could very well have a 3 game losing streak headed into Garcia’s start vs the Tigers. CC-Sat & Kuroda-Sun would make we feel a hell of a lot better about this weekend… Freddy can try to work out his kinks by throwing a simulated game or something this weekend…. And yes I realize it’s really early but a 4 game losing streak sucks any time of the year. Hopefully Nova comes up big Friday and beats Verlander who the Yanks can usually at least score a few runs off of.

  10. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:13 am

    They can send Hughes down now and save a year of service time…..have him for 2013 and 2014……that’s what they should do. He needs to start from scratch and see if he can rebuild some weapons and value……they can use hin in the pen later in the season if they need need him….

  11. pkyankfan69 April 26th, 2012 at 9:14 am

    Who does everyone think has a better chance to turn it around between Hughes and Garcia?

    Honestly, I have no idea at this point.

  12. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:15 am

    “The current regime simply does not know how to properly evaluate pitching.”

    I’ve dismissed this in the past…..but im starting to wonder.

  13. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:17 am

    Blake-

    Me too.

    And it’s stronger than wondering.

    ;)

  14. jacksquat April 26th, 2012 at 9:17 am

    Arod does look a bit lost, but with his talent, track record and approach you have to think he will come around to being at least good/decent.

  15. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:18 am

    “Who does everyone think has a better chance to turn it around between Hughes and Garcia?”

    Probably Garcia…..I honestly don’t think its an issue of not pitching well with Hughes…..I think he just doesn’t have the pitches right now …..and I really can’t see that changing just by continuing to pitch…..

  16. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:18 am

    Jacksquat-

    Let’s hope so.

    They need that bat to be operational.

  17. Yankee Trader April 26th, 2012 at 9:19 am

    MTU-

    Have to go. I’ll ask Jacksquat later if he as a link.

    Anyway here’s your, anatomy of the shoulder, lesson for the day.

    http://www.scoi.com/sholanat.htm

    And remember- You don’t need a parachute to skydive……………………You only need a parachute to skydive twice. :)

  18. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:19 am

    If Banuelos can get healthy and back on track then ill feel.better about their situation …..I still think he’s special.

  19. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:21 am

    Thanks YT.

    I’ll try to remember that.

    I have enough trouble keeping my feet planted to the gound.

    :)

  20. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:24 am

    Talk about surprises and Murphy’s law.

    If there was one thing I thought we would not have any issues with this season it was SP.

    :(

  21. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:25 am

    I want Bartolo back !

    :)

  22. jacksquat April 26th, 2012 at 9:26 am

    Yankee Trader April 26th, 2012 at 9:19 am
    MTU-

    Have to go. I’ll ask Jacksquat later if he as a link.

    People were talking about a link/story about labrum tears that was 8 years old.

    I posted a link to a 2010 story about an alternative procedure for labrum tears, just as an example of how the science has progressed. I don’t think they will use this prodecure for Pineda though.

    http://www.rushortho.com/news/.....urgery.cfm

  23. Hassey April 26th, 2012 at 9:27 am

    There is no doubt they’ve lost more games because of pitchign than hitting, but don’t let the rotation problems mask the fact that the offense has clogged arteries. Some of the guys are simply coughing sawdust and seeing our boys in Pinstripes juxtaposed against Texas makes it clear that we have way too few hitters in their primes. Does Texas have even one guy on their roster that is past his prime?

  24. Bronx Jeers April 26th, 2012 at 9:28 am

    The labrum, simplified:

    The shoulder is a ball and socket

    The socket only fits about a third of the ball so there’s a ring of cartilidge that sort of “extends the socket”. That’s the labrum.

  25. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:30 am

    Jack-

    Didn’t someone alse have an article which talked about who successfully returned from labrum surgery ?

    If think they counted the succeses versus the failures and the rate was about 50/50.

    They cited various ML pitchers like Webb, Clemens, Bedard, etc.

    Was that your article or another ?

    Thanks for posting what you did by the way.

    ;)

  26. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:33 am

    Wonder what happened to Randy ?

    I thought for sure he’d be here.

    Maybe Wratchett finally got him.

    :(

  27. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:35 am

    I agree with what LGY said last night…..I wish they coukd have kept Towers around to evaluate pitching if nothing else.

  28. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:36 am

    Or maybe he is just sitting back taking this all in and waiting for the shock waves to settle.

    Probably smiling like a cheshire cat.

    ;)

  29. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:36 am

    Randy is soaking up the glory and preparing his “I told you so” thesis ;)

  30. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:37 am

    Blake-

    They still employ Hendry.

    Guess he didn’t help much.

    :(

  31. Benny Blanco April 26th, 2012 at 9:39 am

    some of you really need to be SPECIFIC when you say that the yankees don’t know how to properly evaluate pitching talent.

    We all are looking from the outside in and have ZERO clue as to what goes on in those FO meetings. As much as we value Gene “the stick” Michael opinions, he’s apart of those meetings as well.

    So Let’s take this one by one so we can fully determine who is responsible for the yankees pitching demise.

    1) Pavano- Every major league team wanted him. Was it the yankees fault that he crashed his car and failed to tell the yankees about his injury? Did the yankees not properly manage his rehab?

    2) Wang- back to back 19 game winner who broke his foot running the bases. Was that the yankees fault as well? Did they botch is rehad by telling him to not to work on his legs because the bone in his foot was healing?

    3) IPK, Anuerysm ( I suppose that was the yankees fault too, huh?)

    4) Phil Hughes ( hamstring, to spraining ankle in rehab, to broken ribcage , to needing glasses because he couldn’t see the signs in 08)

    5) Joba Chamberlain….I will admit that the pen to the rotation to the pen did not help.

    6) MP—— it was the yankees fault? I do not think the yankees pushed him. Maybe all the stupid talk about his velocity made michael force velocity on his pitches, thus causing him to alter mechanics which led to the tear. And if you check fangraphs last year the drop in his velocity was not drastic either.

    7) AJ burnett. Some people just can’t pitch in NY case closed

    8) Javy Vasquez …..follow exhibit 7.

  32. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:39 am

    The Braves sent Jair to AAA because he was ineffective…..and because im sure they wanted to save service time and see if they coukd straighten him out.

  33. Bronx Jeers April 26th, 2012 at 9:39 am

    Randy predicted a torn labrum?

  34. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:39 am

    Blake-

    You know what.

    In all seriousness I kinda doubt that.

    I think he is saddened by what happened and angry even though he seems to have seen it coming.

    Maybe he’s even a bit happy because he thinks this might lead to cashman’s demise.

    We all know he loves cashman.

    ;)

  35. jacksquat April 26th, 2012 at 9:40 am

    Maybe Randy got blocked for going too far with his CashmanSUX account. :twisted:

  36. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:41 am

    Blake-

    That’s the Braves not the Yankees.

    The only guy they like to send down is Nova.

    :)

  37. JM April 26th, 2012 at 9:42 am

    Curious as to what everyone thinks of Arod’s struggles….Had to miss last night’s game. How did he look? Does he look like he’s close to snapping out of it? I don’t expect him to ever be 2007 Alex again but they need him to be more productive….

  38. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:42 am

    “Randy predicted a torn labrum?”

    He predicted injury….doubt he thought it’d be this soon.

  39. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:44 am

    “The only guy they like to send down is Nova.”

    Isn’t that funny….everyone could see he was progressing…..getting better. I still think they should give Phelps a shot…..he’s got a good curveball and he competes out there…..im not gonna hold a few runs against that Texas lineup against him.

  40. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:45 am

    Blake-

    He saw the inverted “W” and he knew.

    That and the violent delivery and the falling off the mound to one side convinced him.

    He’s in the Bahamas right now enjoying his status as the new found LoHud Prohet.

    He preaches the evils of Cashman as NYY’s GM.

    He’s beginning to draw larger crowds.

    ;)

  41. CountryClub April 26th, 2012 at 9:45 am

    Let’s not make this a bigger deal than it is. The Yanks are struggling to find a 5th starter. At the end of the day, that’s all Huges/Garcia are fighting for….the 5th spot in the rotation. What’s happened to Hughes sucks. The Pineda injury sucks.

    But come playoff time, the rotation will be CC, Nova, Pettitte, Kuroda; and that will be plenty good enough with the pen that the Yanks have.

  42. Hassey April 26th, 2012 at 9:46 am

    all the Pineda fiasco demonstrates to us outsiders is that you never knwo where your next star pitchers are going to come from…for every Killer B or Generation K flameout, there is a Nova or Robertson who storm onto the scene. Management can only make the best decisions possible based on the information they have at the moment, and if the Stick is still lending some grey hair to the Yanks’ pitcher evaluations/decisions, that’s good enough for me. I find the position players and contracts more troubling – it’s more clear there that we’ll soon have a 2-3 year window with no stars in their primes.

  43. jacksquat April 26th, 2012 at 9:46 am

    Randy was just pissed that they traded Montero and exercised his anger by grabbing a handful of darts and heaving them at a dartboard in predicting/suggesting all sorts of negative things for Pineda, which was really just hope that Cashman would be embarrassed. I mean really, saying Pineda should have been sent to minors even before he showed lower velocity in spring training because, even though he had an excellent fastball and slider, his changeup wasn’t perfect. Not many pitchers have 3 top pitches and the ones that do are aces.

  44. LGY April 26th, 2012 at 9:46 am

    Benny

    Weaver, Igawa, Contreras, Brown? And I’m sure several more I’m missing.

    Rather than go through the failures how about we try to think positive.

    Try to list the starting pitching successes since Cashman took over as GM.

  45. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:46 am

    I still think Alex is going to be ok…..he looks healthy….he’s moving well….he’s a timing hitter…….I think its a slow start and if he stays healthy I expect hin to be productive.

  46. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:47 am

    Blake-

    You know they are not gonna do that.

    I still like Phelps too.

  47. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:48 am

    “But come playoff time, the rotation will be CC, Nova, Pettitte, Kuroda; and that will be plenty good enough with the pen that the Yanks have”

    I agree if all those guys are healthy…..but the issue is that a big chunk of that depth they had has been diminished …..they went from having 8-10 quality pitchers deep to about 4-5 in a matter of about 3 weeks.

  48. longtimefan April 26th, 2012 at 9:49 am

    The yankees overall are a very good team but right now the rangers are the better team in all aspects. It is a long season and hopefully the yankees can straighten some things out, mainly the rotation, if they can I think we will be seeing the rangers again in the playoffs. Texas is younger, quicker, has strong starting pitching, and right now is playing with enthusiasm

  49. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:50 am

    Blake-

    People assume AP is a lock.

    What if he isn’t ?

    I sure hope he is.

    We need him now more than ever.

  50. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:50 am

    “Weaver, Igawa, Contreras, Brown? And I’m sure several more I’m missing.”

    Jared Wright, Pavano, Vazquez (twice), AJ, Randy Johnson. I do think some of it was bad luck…..but the trend isn’t a good one.

  51. Hassey April 26th, 2012 at 9:51 am

    Blake – I agree with you. I think A-Rod looks as healthy as he’ll ever be again. But the skillz (yes, I spelled it with a Z) are just not there anymore. With 18 games under our sizable belts, we’ve seen him against good pitchign and bad pitching, in big parks and small parks, and I’m going out on a limb to predict final numbers of .245, 18, 75

  52. JM April 26th, 2012 at 9:51 am

    I love Andy and am grateful he decided to return, especially considering what’s happened to the rotation over the last month. But he’s going to be 40 and he missed a year…

    Hopefully he can be effective and also stay healthy for a whole season.

  53. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:52 am

    MTU,

    I don’t think Andy is a lock either….I hope he’s what he was but there is no way to know…..what I don’t like is that Andy went from a great insurance policy….to somebody they really really need.

  54. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:53 am

    “Andy went from a great insurance policy….to somebody they really really need.’

    This.

    ;)

  55. MTU April 26th, 2012 at 9:55 am

    Time to walk the Mops.

    No labrum injuries.

    They’re ready to go.

    BIAW

    :)

  56. Benny Blanco April 26th, 2012 at 9:56 am

    “Rather than go through the failures how about we try to think positive.”

    LGY,

    I’m with you. It seems like this place has been one BIG “negative nelly” since montero has been traded. All people do is complain and complain. Last night was unbearable.

  57. jacksquat April 26th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    Yep, Andy quickly went from “where are they going to put him?” to “how soon can he be ready?”

  58. blake April 26th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    “. But the skillz (yes, I spelled it with a Z) are just not there anymore.”

    I disagree ….maybe they aren’t at an all time level anymore but he’s still got plenty enough ability left to have success…..maybe he’s going through an adjustment period where he’s learning to hit with ablittke less bat speed …..remember when everyone thought Jeter and Ortiz were finished? I think Alex will be fine if he stays healthy……but as always that’s the big if.

  59. hardwired7 April 26th, 2012 at 10:01 am

    CountryClub April 26th, 2012 at 9:45 am

    ————

    That was one damn fine post. Kudos.

  60. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:02 am

    If you want more bad news…..im pretty sure Pineda will rack up big league service time this year while being on the DL……

  61. austinmac April 26th, 2012 at 10:08 am

    I was a short time ago when we were all talking of trading the excess pitching for a quality bat. How things change.

    I think at this point, Garcia is more likely to pitch better. If he can get his splitter working, he has a chance to pitch effectively. Hughes has one pitch. His curve has far too big a loop and batter instantly recognize it to readily repspond to a 73 mph pitch. We all hate the idea of giving up on Hughes as a starter, but what are we really giving up?

    Phelps does look a bit better than Hughes. He has a few pitches, none of which are great, but he can throw them for strikes. He has a chance to pitch effectievly, especially against less than top hittting teams. I’m not sure I see a team Hughes can pitch well against for more than an inning or two.

  62. Hassey April 26th, 2012 at 10:11 am

    The fanbase in Texas looks like Nolan Ryan spends his weekends giving away free tickets in WalMarts and gas stations across the panhandle

  63. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:13 am

    The Yanks are just going to further hurt Hughes confidence by continuing to run him out there IMO…..if they can’t see that he doesn’t have a big league average secondary pitch at this point then im not sure what to say…..

  64. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:15 am

    They should send Hughes to A ball and start over …..put Phelps in the rotation…..and bring up DJ Mitchell.

  65. Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Cashman has no clue how to assemble a pitching staff. the track record speaks for itself : Igawa, Vazquez, Brown, Contreras, Burnett, Vazquez again, Pavano, Wright, and much more. And that list doesn’t include the busts he acquired in the pen.

    I really think that Cashman needs to step aside and maybe the Pineda issue was the thing this team needs to finally put the heat on him for failing while throwing millions of dollars around. Cashman is so lucky because most GM’s with his track record would have been fired by now.

  66. muwarriorsfan April 26th, 2012 at 10:15 am

    “I’m with you. It seems like this place has been one BIG “negative nelly” since montero has been traded. All people do is complain and complain. Last night was unbearable.”

    No, it’s the Pollyanna attitude that’s unbearable. The Yanks are an aging, failing team and has a GM that makes one bad decision after another.

  67. Bronx Jeers April 26th, 2012 at 10:16 am

    Randy predicted that the Yanks would screw up Pineda’s development and if he wants to argue that the Yanks are responsible for the injury I wouldn’t necessarily disagree.

    Girardi’s thinly veiled “reach your maximum velocity or you’re headed to the minors” statement prior to Pineda’s final Spring start and the rushed rehab after the tendonitis diagnosis don’t exactly scream innocence on their part.

  68. Against All Odds April 26th, 2012 at 10:16 am

    Try to list the starting pitching successes since Cashman took over as GM.

    ——————————

    This might be a while lol. The successes don’t roll off the tongue like the disasters do.

  69. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 10:17 am

    Betances might either be trade bait, or going to the bullpen at some point.
    ///

    Trader and blake:

    Prediction: Dellin Betances starts for the New York Yankees before Michael Pineda.

    Prediction: Dellin Betances has the greater ML career.

    Prediction: Dellin Betances will be a successful front-end starter in the majors.
    :D

    P.S. blake, can we get these kids some arm strength and good weather, and then check back on how they’re doing? The weather, after the warmth of ST, has been pretty silly.

  70. Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 10:19 am

    Blake

    Cashman and Girardi are in denial. Actually Girardi knows but he is a puppet and just goes along with Cashman and the BS management peddles.

    Everyone knows that Hughes has nothing but Cashman already knows that things are looking bad for him. They will continue to trot him out there and the Yankees will continue to lose the games he pitch.

  71. Against All Odds April 26th, 2012 at 10:21 am

    Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Cashman has no clue how to assemble a pitching staff. the track record speaks for itself : Igawa, Vazquez, Brown, Contreras, Burnett, Vazquez again, Pavano, Wright, and much more. And that list doesn’t include the busts he acquired in the pen.

    ——————————-

    You didn’t even mention the way they handled their young pitching. You have generation trey 1 is on another team(thank God we got Grandy in return), one is in the pen and the other seems destined to end up there.

  72. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 10:21 am

    I would send Hughes to Tampa to work on a 3rd pitch. No sense in throwing him at Trenton, where the weather has sucked, and where the media hounds will be writing down every sneeze.

    Send him to Tampa where it’s warm and relatively private. He could come back from there a very effective starter. His career is not doomed at 25.

  73. Hassey April 26th, 2012 at 10:22 am

    Hasn’t been this ugly, disjointed and disfunctional in the South Bronx since 1982 (or maybe since Paul Newman did Fort Apache)

  74. austinmac April 26th, 2012 at 10:24 am

    The Yankee team is in need of youthful talent. This winter they had a chance to infuse the pitching and hitting with only money for Darvish and Cespedes. Both of these players seem to be thriving. The Yankees didn’t even get in the game.

    It is this short sighted, money saving new way of doing business that will kill the Yankee run of the past decade and a half. Previously, they could and would fill needs by spending money. Now, the free agents are fewer, but the real issue is the Yankees wouldn’t invest in them anyway if they require contracts into 2014.

    Alex is aging quickly while Cano, Swisher(the second best hitter this year), Martin and Granderson may or may not be retained. I remember when the Yankees were in the player acquisition group while they will very soon be in the player departure group.

    In short, their decision to meet the $189M payroll for 2014-2015 means they will be among the least likely teams in the next two years to spend big money on long term contracts. With their age, that is a big problem. Their are no positional replacement players are the horizon. Have you seen the starting lineup in AAA? Not one prospect.

  75. NYYROC April 26th, 2012 at 10:25 am

    How about the fact that the only good one (Nova) was a guy they tried to give away 2x as a Rule 5.

  76. Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 10:25 am

    Cashman got CC but all he did was throw money at him and anyone could have done that.
    The same with Mussina in 2001. Cashman has had more failures and has spent so much that his spending on failures is larger than many countries GDP’s.

  77. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 10:28 am

    The starting pitching is fine. C/Nova/Kuroda/Pettitte and Phelps/Mitchell/Warren.

    The Yankees, through their relative ineptness, have convinced themselves and everyone that it’s some gigantic risk to give an inexperienced starter (at ML level) the fifth spot. Good luck ever developing any homegrowns, with that kind of trepidation.

  78. Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 10:29 am

    Against all odds

    Yep I didn’t even mention how they handle young pitchers. And I agree with the other posters that they mishandled Pineda and I’m not surprised because it wouldn’t be the first time.

  79. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:29 am

    JAP,

    Yea ill wait on the weather…..but we need to see some progress from Dellin this year….he’s been in the system 6 years and they can’t wait forever for him to figure his delivery out……some guys just can’t do it athletically…especially at his size. I hope you’re right…..we shall see.

  80. charlestonchew April 26th, 2012 at 10:30 am

    Hughes needs to come out like CC and attack hitters. These curveballs have been “get it over” kinds of curveballs. Hitters in the MLB will hit those pitches no matter if they’re on the corner or over the middle. He needs to snap that curveball into the ground more often. Make it bounce and keep those hitters off balance.

    I can tell what pitch Hughes is going to throw based on how his head nods at Martin. i don’t know if anyone else noticed this, but if Hughes double shakes on an 0-2 count… you KNOW it’s going to be a fastball. He needs to get more comfortable with that change and for the love of god, come inside with a pitch or two! He needs more pitches with movement. The curve is barely moving because he’s afraid to snap it into the ground and the cutter hardly looks like a cutter anymore.

    This kid needs to come at hitters like CC did when he had had enough. Maybe if CC and Nova sit him down, he can get a strong enough talking to that he understands the way he needs to pitch: with conviction. He doesn’t seem to believe in what he’s throwing very much and that’s a major problem.

  81. Against All Odds April 26th, 2012 at 10:30 am

    His career is not doomed at 25.

    ————————

    Doomed probably not but it is at a crossroads

  82. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:31 am

    “I would send Hughes to Tampa to work on a 3rd pitch. No sense in throwing him at Trenton, where the weather has sucked, and where the media hounds will be writing down every sneeze”

    Totally agree…..he needs a good 2nd pitch first though.

  83. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 10:31 am

    Hassey April 26th, 2012 at 10:22 am
    Hasn’t been this ugly, disjointed and disfunctional in the South Bronx since 1982 (or maybe since Paul Newman did Fort Apache)
    ///

    The big difference is, they happen to have a loaded farm system. Betances/Banuelos at AAA, a guy like DePaula, then there’s Jo-Ram, Marshall, Bryan Mitchell, Campos, etc. They’ve got pitching coming out of their ears, but those arms are a few years away, as are their more elite position prospects.

    No one has any patience, however, including the people who make the decisions. That’s the problem.

  84. Against All Odds April 26th, 2012 at 10:31 am

    Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 10:29 am

    Against all odds

    Yep I didn’t even mention how they handle young pitchers. And I agree with the other posters that they mishandled Pineda and I’m not surprised because it wouldn’t be the first time.

    ————————

    And it won’t be the last I can guarantee you that because the same ppl are in charge of how these guys are handled/brought up.

  85. PacoDooley April 26th, 2012 at 10:33 am

    I actually think there is a decent likelihood that they send Hughes down to the minors for a couple of starts when Pettitte is ready. They don’t have a clear role for Garcia – he doesn’t look like a reliever and doesn’t get ready quickly, so they leave him in the rotation and see if Hughes can get back to spring training form with a couple of starts in the minors. This depends critically if he (Garcia) looks totally done in his next start because, if he can’t get it together, there is no reason to keep him on the team in any role.

    I’m missing Barto at this point in the season! I’m hoping that perhaps Oswalt might be interested, though there is a fair chance that he would suck in the AL East at this point in time, but a short season might do him well.

  86. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 10:33 am

    blake, he’s got a serviceable change, which becomes moreso with one more pitch. For the love of God, do the right thing, for once in your lives, for both yourselves and the player; Hughes in the BP is redundant, just as Joba is.

  87. Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 10:33 am

    austinmac
    Well Cashman and management can’t spend wisely. They have to wait for an AJ burnett or Vazquez to throw money at. Right now my outlook on this team is somewhat negative with the current guys at the helm.

  88. PacoDooley April 26th, 2012 at 10:35 am

    I agree with the comments that Pineda was mishandled. When he was out of shape they should have looked longer term and done a conditioning and throwing program that delayed his ST start by a couple of weeks (same for Hughes last year). There is no reason to throw a guy into a game that is not in the shape he needs to be in. Being out of shape lead to the velocity problems that led to the snowball that rolled into his shoulder surgery.

  89. DONNYBROOK April 26th, 2012 at 10:35 am

    The Real question is just what caused this injury to Pineda? Cashman swears up-and-down that Pineda passed a physical and was given an MRI prior to the trade being OK’d, yet a KID suffers the type of injury that you see Vets of Many pitches having. Is it Overwork inna short period of time? Is it showing up to ST outta shape, and asking more of the shoulder than it is inna condition to produce? The game last night pales in comparison to just what happened to Pineda in the short time between his passing ALL those medical tests, and NOW being shelved for the season.

  90. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 10:36 am

    Against All Odds April 26th, 2012 at 10:30 am
    His career is not doomed at 25.

    ————————

    Doomed probably not but it is at a crossroads
    ///

    Yeah, and for once, they need to send send him down the right one.

  91. austinmac April 26th, 2012 at 10:36 am

    JAP,

    I appreciate your continued support of Betances, but it would be nice if he could justify it by throwing strikes. Last year you said the weather was too hot in one of his bad games, and now it is too cold. Other pitchers are pitching fine in the International League despite the weather. He needs to fix his delivery if he is to ever be effective. Put me in the “I will believe it from him and all other prospects when they play and pitch well.”

  92. Hassey April 26th, 2012 at 10:36 am

    JAP – Yes, I agree. But that means our bridge year started in 2010 and will last until 2014

  93. Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 10:36 am

    I wish we could get rid of Levine, Cashman, and even Girardi. This organization needs a house cleaning.

  94. spidanyc April 26th, 2012 at 10:36 am

    And how about the Yankees making Scott Feldman look like a stud pitcher. Feldman is horrendous.

  95. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:37 am

    Here is what the Yanks SHOULD do (but probably wont).

    -Send Hughes to Tampa to attempt to develop some sort of secondary arsenal.
    -Put Phelps in the rotation
    -Call up Mitchell.
    -Hope Betances and Banuelos progress……hope Kuroda and Andy and Nova and CC can stay healthy and productive enough to make a WS run this year.
    -aggresively pursue Cole Hamels if available this offseason and then hope Pineda makes a comeback next year……that’s the Yankee way…not trading assets to get what you need…..

    pretty much the only good pitching move Cashman has made was when Hal let him spend what it took to sign Sabathia…..do the same with Hamels and go from there.

  96. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 10:38 am

    Blake, you can’t mention Dellin’s # of years in the system without mentioning that he had surgery in 2009. He has had only @430 minor league innings. It is an important year for him, no doubt, but to refer to his # of years in the system without qualifiers is facile.

  97. Mike Ri April 26th, 2012 at 10:38 am

    Being out of shape lead to the velocity problems that led to the snowball that rolled into his shoulder surgery.
    —-

    I can’t buy that unless your a MD. sorry !

    Who knows what happened to Pinedas shoulder ? It could have been an injury sustained late last season. Could have been just a freak accident . Nobody knows but Pineda

  98. Against All Odds April 26th, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Blake I remember you saying hey forget Hamels unless things go wrong absolutely wrong and boy have they gone wrong lol.

  99. BD (Boston Dave) April 26th, 2012 at 10:39 am

    Unless Alex has suddenly gotten lazy, he’s a good bet to stay a good hitter.

    He works out as much as anyone and studies the game (supposedly.)

    If guys like Ortiz who had at times looked like they were on the Pete Abe exercise regimen can hit like he is now…. you can’t write off Alex (who is/was a superior hitter) just yet.

  100. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:39 am

    “blake, he’s got a serviceable change, which becomes moreso with one more pitch.”

    The pitch itself is ok….but he doesn’t command it very well. It would be a good third pitch for him if he had a plus breaking all……he needs a better breaking ball that he can miss bats with and throws for strikes…..and he probably needs a two seamer or something to generate weak contact with and gets guys off his 4 seamer….

  101. Faiaz April 26th, 2012 at 10:40 am

    Any ideas on possible trades for a starting pitcher if things start to look bleak for us?

  102. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 10:40 am

    spidanyc April 26th, 2012 at 10:36 am
    And how about the Yankees making Scott Feldman look like a stud pitcher. Feldman is horrendous.
    ___
    I couldn’t agree more. The game should have been a slugfest but the Yankees didn’t get the memo.

  103. Tar April 26th, 2012 at 10:41 am

    I do not usually comment on pitching mechanics issues because frankly my knowledge is not really up to par in that area. But Phil’s main problem is pitching from the stretch. He is ok to good with nobody on and just terrible, awful bad with somebody on base

    He needs to fix whatever it is that makes him so bad from the stretch, and go from there.

  104. BD (Boston Dave) April 26th, 2012 at 10:42 am

    Blake,

    All those…. but still think its at best a 3% chance Hamels lands in NY.

    It’s almost a Cano OR Hamels decision.

  105. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:43 am

    “It is an important year for him, no doubt, but to refer to his # of years in the system without qualifiers is facile.”

    Yea but its been three years since his surgery…..at some point these guys have to get it done and show improvement…..at what point does the weather and all those things become excuses?

  106. BD (Boston Dave) April 26th, 2012 at 10:43 am

    “Any ideas on possible trades for a starting pitcher if things start to look bleak for us?”

    ======

    Not likely. Yanks have enough arms in AAA that are as good or better than anyone they could get in any trade that didn’t cost a fortune.

  107. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:43 am

    “It’s almost a Cano OR Hamels decision.”

    Probably more a Granderson or Hamels choice IMO

  108. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 10:43 am

    I will say that at least Hughes is throwing that change and the fastball has life if he can just start commanding it. I am less worried about those two pitches than that mostly atrocious loopy CB. I don’t think Hughes’ situation is fatal, but we need to do the right thing by him. By no means should he go to the pen. Give him the one more start and then send him down if things aren’t improving.

  109. Shame Spencer April 26th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    Next year isn’t 2014 so I’m all for Hamels! :D

  110. austinmac April 26th, 2012 at 10:46 am

    YF,

    Betances is at an age and experience level where he shouldn’t walk a better per inning. We should see improvement. For anyone to suggest, and you didn’t, that he is likely to succeed is basing that on hope and not performance. I have that hope, but I am not counting on him.

    And when will Banuelos return? Romine?

  111. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 10:47 am

    Maybe Alex was held back by the off season procedure. I agree that it seems more like a timing issue. Here’s hoping.

    I don’t see any reason why Pettitte wouldn’t be as good as ever. I don’t buy the age thing with him. He just needs to have his usual strong legs under him and shouldn’t be rushed.

  112. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    .” I am less worried about those two pitches than that mostly atrocious loopy CB”

    Totally agree…..I think his CU is a good enough third pitch……if you gave Hughes Robertson’s breaking ball then he’s a different pitcher totally…..the fastball gets better….the CU gets better…..and he suddenly has a bat missing pitch. I think they need to either figure out a better curveball or scrap it and try a slider.

  113. muwarriorsfan April 26th, 2012 at 10:49 am

    “-Put Phelps in the rotation”

    What has Phelps done to show that he would be a good major league pitcher?

  114. Shame Spencer April 26th, 2012 at 10:49 am

    “Give him the one more start and then send him down if things aren’t improving.”

    I’m being genuine (I swear!) when I ask why we should expect any improvement..? Watching Hughes has been more painful than watching AJ, IMO.

  115. darbodla April 26th, 2012 at 10:49 am

    I’m sure when Hughes is gone he will miraculously turn things around for another team. The Yankees clearly don’t develop pitching well. And lately, position players either.

    A foul tasting recipe:

    1. An aging team.
    2. Serious rotation problems.
    3. Question marks about Betances and Banuelos.
    4. Hal’s new girlfriend, frugality.

  116. PacoDooley April 26th, 2012 at 10:50 am

    Tar April 26th, 2012 at 10:41 am
    I do not usually comment on pitching mechanics issues because frankly my knowledge is not really up to par in that area. But Phil’s main problem is pitching from the stretch. He is ok to good with nobody on and just terrible, awful bad with somebody on base

    He needs to fix whatever it is that makes him so bad from the stretch, and go from there.
    ————————————————–

    Haven’t some pitchers just given up on pitching from the stretch? I seem to recall someone like Maddux not bothering. I don’t know how slow his wind-up is to the plate, but if it makes him a much more effective pitcher it could be worth a shot (not sure about this!). He could then work on the stretch mechanics on off days and bring it back when it improves.

  117. Shame Spencer April 26th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    muwarriorsfan April 26th, 2012 at 10:49 am

    “-Put Phelps in the rotation”

    What has Phelps done to show that he would be a good major league pitcher?
    ————————

    He’s given up runs, but he’s been better in Hughes’ starts than Hughes has.

  118. DONNYBROOK April 26th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    The FACT Pineda wanted a 2nd medical opinion, Before he received the 1st medical report, makes me believe he knew Something the Yankees did Not. You throw in Pineda’s numbers the 2nd half of 2011, and the fact that Cashman was dealing with a GM that is rumored to sell swamp land outta the trunk of his Buick, and the eyebrows Immediately go up like the shields on the Star Trek Enterprise. If I’m Hal, I gotta look at Who, and what kinda physical and MRI, the Yanks are giving players that have been acquired in trades.

  119. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:29 am
    JAP,

    Yea ill wait on the weather…..but we need to see some progress from Dellin this year….he’s been in the system 6 years and they can’t wait forever for him to figure his delivery out……some guys just can’t do it athletically…especially at his size. I hope you’re right…..we shall see.
    ///

    I think you have to remember he was a project when he started. We have not only “seen some progress,” we have seen enormous strides from this kid. The year he went down, he applied himself and discovered a very nasty changeup. The curve is crazy good, and he’s got 3 kinds of fastballs. The control is his bugaboo, but I’m betting on him. And you just don’t cave on a guy with that much upside.

    The 2010 guy I saw is definitely worth waiting for. Trading him would be as short-sighted as making him a BP guy. For one, you’re not going to get anywhere near value for him in isolation, compared to that 2010 pitcher. If he becomes that pitcher, you’ve got a diamond.

    They kept Christian Garcia on the 40-man and tried to wait his fragile body out. I don’t regret that sacrifice, given the talent involved; they showed a good deal of patience before finally caving. It didn’t work out, but it’s a risk you continue to take with the special arms. Betances has a spot on the 40-man, and he is actually healthy. You allow him his paces, and keep him in the wait-and-see category.

    I also happen to think if he stays healthy, he’ll be in the mix next ST. That’s not very long to wait. But even if he were to take a step back, I’d still keep that spot warm for a little longer.

  120. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:51 am

    “What has Phelps done to show that he would be a good major league pitcher?”

    Great minor league track record…..success at each level….pretty solid effort out of the bullpen this year save last night against the best lineup in baseball……

  121. Faiaz April 26th, 2012 at 10:52 am

    Thought this was a very nice article that puts financial facts into perspective.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/mi.....n-players/

    Am I a spoiled fan to even think of the fact that maybe our team should be spending more money on players, since they make more? The Redsox, Tigers, Twins and Phillies spend more than us on their players… as in percentage of their revenue. I only say that they should spend more because it is US, the fans, that enable the team to make as much as they do. Even YES because if WE didn’t watch, they wouldn’t get paid. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

  122. Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 10:52 am

    Alex needs to step up. Even though Ortiz has made a come back A-rod has failed to come back. We will see but right now I don’t have a good feeling about it.

  123. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 10:53 am

    austinmac, Dellin has to work on his mechanics, no doubt, but he has been making the leap from AA to AAA and the weather has been a big factor. Not sure if you people actually attend games in East coast parks in April, but for pitchers who aren’t polished products, the weather is a huge factor–40′s and swirling winds, which is what Dellin will see again tomorrow night when he pitches. Try pitching in those conditions, let alone sitting in them as a fan.

    Manny too with his better mechanics had been walking batters left and right in the cold weather before that weather perhaps contributed to his injury. Nardi complained vehemently about the cold weather. See article:http://minormatterstrenton.blo.....reras.html

    FTR, I am not relying on either Dellin or Manny to be contributers this year.

  124. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 10:54 am

    austinmac April 26th, 2012 at 10:46 am
    YF,

    Betances is at an age and experience level where he shouldn’t walk a better per inning.
    ///

    He’s 6 foot 8. And he’s not all that experienced. He missed an entire season. There are no “shoulds.” That’s arbitrary.

  125. blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:55 am

    JAP,

    I agree they should stay the course with Betances for now….because as you say he doesn’t have much trade value and they don’t need him in the pen…..but 2010 is getting farther away and at some point you have to start wondering if he will ever be able to lhyscially repeat his delivery well enough to reach his potential.

  126. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    Dellin’s innings (approximate):

    2006 23 IP
    2007 25 IP
    2008 121 IP
    2009 44 IP (shut down – ligament reinforcement surgery)
    2010 85 IP
    2011 129 IP

  127. jacksquat April 26th, 2012 at 10:57 am

    They should move the AAA team to Albuquerque. :)

  128. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 10:58 am

    e probably needs a two seamer or something to generate weak contact with and gets guys off his 4 seamer….
    ///

    blake, yea agree. A good pitch for him with guys on. if he had a groundball weapon to go to, that would really help.

  129. raymagnetic April 26th, 2012 at 10:59 am

    They can always trade their cant miss DH without a position to a team like Seattle who has a TON of can’t miss pitchers.

    You know, a value for value trade.

  130. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 11:00 am

    Brett Marshall is walking almost an additional batter per nine, now that he is pitching in Trenton in April vs. pitching in Tampa. Come on out and sit in a Lehigh or Trenton park. You can’t even feel your fingers after a couple of innings; pitchers who are still working on pitches aren’t going to somehow rise above the weather especially with 20mph winds. Give them a break.

  131. raymagnetic April 26th, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Cashman should receive an electric shock anytime another GM e-mails, texts or calls about trading him a pitcher.

  132. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 11:02 am

    jacksquat, is that where you are located? The weather here in the East for baseball has been brutal.

  133. luis April 26th, 2012 at 11:02 am

    Just a quick question: I know the offense fell asleep again. Was it hero swings that in turn expanded the strikezone or did they have good at bats with good situational hitting but with bad luck? And if the former was the case, was it the usual suspects or just a general thing?

  134. Hassey April 26th, 2012 at 11:02 am

    Alright guys, you’ve convinced me to go for it – I’m sending my resume to Cashman’s office. Problem is, I think I make a better hecker than GM-meeting poker player.

  135. DONNYBROOK April 26th, 2012 at 11:02 am

    While we are discussing developing Chuckers, just what did the R\Sox do to Aceves, to get him up to 95\96 MPH ???

  136. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 11:03 am

    “He’s 6 foot 8. And he’s not all that experienced. He missed an entire season. There are no “shoulds.” That’s arbitrary.”
    _______
    Yep.

  137. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 11:04 am

    yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 10:56 am
    Dellin’s innings (approximate):

    2006 23 IP
    2007 25 IP
    2008 121 IP
    2009 44 IP (shut down – ligament reinforcement surgery)
    2010 85 IP
    2011 129 IP
    ///

    Well, there’s your “experience”. Not exactly a AAAA pitcher’s worth, is it? He is not in “should” territory. The “should” here, it seems to me, is the patience we “should” have.

    He frustrates you because he’s a “project” with great stuff. For me, who has seen him a lot, he’s not only got great stuff, but he knows how to use it; he’s smart on the mound. The final frontier is a biggie, no doubt. More consistent command. I’ve seen him do it. No hurry for him to make some ultimate statement in late April, because Yankee fans are antsy about the future of the rotation.

  138. raymagnetic April 26th, 2012 at 11:05 am

    “DONNYBROOK says:
    April 26, 2012 at 11:02 am
    While we are discussing developing Chuckers, just what did the R\Sox do to Aceves, to get him up to 95\96 MPH ???”

    Papi’s milkshakes?

  139. blake April 26th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    “While we are discussing developing Chuckers, just what did the R\Sox do to Aceves, to get him up to 95\96 MPH ??”

    Made him the closer…..he’s been overthrowing and lost his movement and command….which is why he hasn’t been very good.

  140. Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 11:09 am

    I hope that the killer B’s work out. Right now many don’t feel confident because of the Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy experience.

  141. luis April 26th, 2012 at 11:10 am

    Hi JAP!,

    I am worried. This is exactly when Cashman gets dangerous. He might trade some prospects in order to bolster the ever in need rotation.

  142. RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 11:11 am

    Maybe Hughes can benefit from being sent to the minors, but I honestly don’t know if it well help the team to replace him. Maybe Phelps, Mitchell, or Warren can take a shot – but there’s nothing guaranteed with those guys either. Hughes could just be a few tweaks away from performing better.

    Both choices, sticking with Hughes or putting him in the minors, carry immediate risk.

  143. Hassey April 26th, 2012 at 11:11 am

    “the Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy experience”

    I think I shared a toke with them at Woodstock

  144. DONNYBROOK April 26th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    - BLAKE -
    Aceves has had 2 Horrible games, which make his numbers in general look bad. The truth is, the guy has been pretty good on the whole. You rely solely on numbers to evaluate a player and your gonna get Burnt.

  145. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    blake April 26th, 2012 at 10:55 am
    JAP,

    I agree they should stay the course with Betances for now….because as you say he doesn’t have much trade value and they don’t need him in the pen…..but 2010 is getting farther away and at some point you have to start wondering if he will ever be able to lhyscially repeat his delivery well enough to reach his potential.
    ///

    Well, life’s a risk :D. But I don’t just say he’s not got much value, and that they don’t need him in the pen (I’d say he is wasted in the pen, with an emphasis on “wasted”); I add to that, if he can regain that control he had in 2010, you have a stud. The combination of those things says to me: you don’t dare trade him.

  146. Chip April 26th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    Sorry if any of this has been repeated – I just logged on and haven’t read all the posts.

    3 Things

    1. I’m tired of Hughes. It’s no longer inconsistency it is just bad play on his part. Good velocity or bad velocity he gets too deep into counts, throws too many pitches and is not getting enough positive results.

    2. On Pineda – I do not consider the trade a disaster nor do I blame Cashman for this. This was (and might still be) a good trade. We don’t know the extent of the damage to Pineda’s shoulder. If it can be fixed with the scope, great…that’s relatively good news, the cuff hasn’t shown any damage yet he is very young – both good things for a recovery. If they have to do more extensive work – well then you start getting into Mark Prior/Brandon Webb territory. But at the end of the day, these things happen. Some people didn’t like the trade when it was made, and that’s fine…but Pineda getting hurt is not going to change my mind. The trade was one Cashman should have done, just like signing Carl Pavano and trading for Javy Vazquez (the first time) were deals that should have been done – that they didn’t work out and that Pineda is hurt stinks, but they don’t retroactively make the premise behind them bad.

    3. All of that being said – this organization is snakebit recently when it comes to bringing in pitching – I don’t get it. I truly believe that if Cashman had traded for Gio or Latos or had signed Wilson or Darvish those guys would have gotten hurt as well. In the last 20 years I can only think of 7 pitchers who have been brought in from outside who have performed at the level they did prior to being Yankees: Jimmy Key, David Cone, Roger Clemens, Moose, El Duque, David Wells, CC Sabathia…other than that it has been a complete disaster:

    Roger McDowell
    Jose Contreras
    Kei Igawa
    Hideki Irabu
    Kenny Rogers
    Jim Abbott (no hitter not withstanding)
    Pavano
    Jaret Wright
    Corey Lidle
    Denny Neagle
    Jeff Weaver
    Kevin Brown
    AJ Burnett
    Javy Vazquez
    Randy Johnson

    and don’t even get me started on the relievers…

    And it can’t be about evaluation because many of these pitchers have gone on to be successful after leaving the Yankees just as they were successful before coming to the Yankees.

  147. BD (Boston Dave) April 26th, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Aceves has been decent. He was outstanding last year.

    He’s really ticked about losing out on a rotation spot and wasn’t happy about being the closer.

    Even Aceves successful saves have been shaky.

  148. raymagnetic April 26th, 2012 at 11:17 am

    Aceves has been using the preparation H workout plan which he said has been pretty good for him on the whole.

  149. austinmac April 26th, 2012 at 11:17 am

    JAP,

    I do believe a professional pitcher should not walk a batter per inning. Neither should one is college or even high school.

    He has a very good curve when he gets it over the plate. The velocity I have seen is 93-94. Good, but not Randy Johnson either.

    I am not advocating doing anything with him other than letting him pitch. My point is, as is was with Montero and would be with almost anyone, they have to prove they can succeed. Whether he will is completely unknowable.

  150. mick April 26th, 2012 at 11:18 am

    How could you leave Ed Whitson off that list?

  151. RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    And maybe I’m just brainwashed here – but I really don’t think the Yankees should sign Hamels. I don’t have anything against the guy – I don’t question his talent. It just seems unwise to have to big contract commitments in the rotation.

  152. DONNYBROOK April 26th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    - CHIP -
    The risk factor is FAR different between Losing $$$ on signing a Chucker that goes Bust, and losing a player like Montero inna trade for a Chucker. NO comparison. This is why the Yanks shoulda been All-In on Darvish.

  153. raymagnetic April 26th, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Chip,

    The trade is a disaster. The main proponent of the trade has a bum shoulder. Oh by the way, he’s a pitcher.

    If that’s not a disaster of a trade I don’t know what is.

  154. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 11:20 am

    uis April 26th, 2012 at 11:10 am
    Hi JAP!,

    I am worried. This is exactly when Cashman gets dangerous. He might trade some prospects in order to bolster the ever in need rotation.
    ///

    Luis! :D

    Be afraid; be very afraid :(

  155. Gary April 26th, 2012 at 11:21 am

    “I think we’re pitching deep, but like anything else, I think we have some of our guys have got to get going,” Brian Cashman said.

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    The spin machine is going

  156. Chip April 26th, 2012 at 11:22 am

    BD (Boston Dave) April 26th, 2012 at 11:16 am

    Aceves has been decent. He was outstanding last year.

    He’s really ticked about losing out on a rotation spot and wasn’t happy about being the closer.

    Even Aceves successful saves have been shaky.
    ———————

    Bill Barnwell over at Grantland.com has an interesting take on Aceves which is that for years his stuff hasn’t been as good as his results but that as a reliever, he’s been used in small enough increments that it hasn’t caught up to him.

    He basically compares Ace, who now has just over the amount of ML innings that a full year of starting would give him, to Joe Mays who also had great results that didn’t match up with what he was throwing…essentially he says that the same way a player who has a really high BABIP probably can’t maintain his great batting average over the course of a career a pitcher like Ace or Mays can’t reproduce sterling results year after year.

  157. raymagnetic April 26th, 2012 at 11:23 am

    We will never see Mason Williams or Gary Sanchez in pinstripes.

    Tyler Austin is in serious danger of being traded if he keeps playing so well.

    Not that we need them anyway. We need pitching, pitching and more pitching.

  158. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 11:24 am

    Austinmac, those numbers are his fastball sitting early in season, and more like sitting up to 96 (multiple times). He tops out at @99 in the later summer.

  159. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 26th, 2012 at 11:25 am

    I don’t want to see Hughes in the rotation anymore. This is feeling like 2008 redux.

  160. Shame Spencer April 26th, 2012 at 11:25 am

    How can you put Johnson on that list? Sure he got hurt but I’d take 2 season of 17 wins and 200+ from a 40 year old Andy Petitte any day of the week.

  161. Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 11:26 am

    It’s hard to look at Cashman’s pitching successes because he has only had three during his tenure. Mussina, CC, and the trade for Roger Clemens. The rest of his decisions have pretty much been failures and I think the media need to hold him accountable. Most Gm’s would have been fired long ago with a record like that.

  162. DONNYBROOK April 26th, 2012 at 11:26 am

    In regards to Now appraising the Montero-Pineda trade, I am reminded of the Obi-Wan Kenobi line: “There is another”.

  163. jacksquat April 26th, 2012 at 11:27 am

    yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 11:02 am
    jacksquat, is that where you are located? The weather here in the East for baseball has been brutal.

    Yes, I am in Albuquerque. Definitely better weather here, most of the time. Nice fairly new ballpark.

    http://www.milb.com/team1/page.....8;sid=t342

    Currently home to the Dodgers’ AAA team, which I’m not all that excited about.

  164. Jeremy April 26th, 2012 at 11:29 am

    Shame Spencer

    They got Johnson when he was old and at the twilight of his career. One thing the Yankees have been known for since the 2000′s is getting washed up players who are past their prime. example : Raul Ibanez.

  165. RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 11:30 am

    Hm, maybe it is best to send Hughes to the minors. I remember CB said his kinetic flow just wasn’t right, and I agree. He is very top heavy with his mechanics, and I swear it wasn’t always like that. Do we have confidence that our organization is equipped to handle breaking him down?

  166. PacoDooley April 26th, 2012 at 11:31 am

    The worst part is that this is a team that was nominally built around pitching (yes, with a great offence), but they now are near the bottom of the league in pretty much all measures of pitching success. They have room to rebound, but the team that we all thought was going to lead the AL East by out pitching their competition, while scoring a nice number of runs, will is currently simply outscoring their opponents – that is unlikely to be a sustainable success, and is clearly not what you need to win in the postseason.

  167. DONNYBROOK April 26th, 2012 at 11:32 am

    I’m fairly familiar with Albuquerque, due to it frequently being the host city on COPS.

  168. PacoDooley April 26th, 2012 at 11:32 am

    Shame Spencer

    They got Johnson when he was old and at the twilight of his career. One thing the Yankees have been known for since the 2000?s is getting washed up players who are past their prime. example : Raul Ibanez.
    ———————————-

    Totally unfair comparison. They have used guys past their prime like Ibanez as cheap one year players that have no real cost (i.e., no trade involved). That is a departure from the approach of trading away youth to get washed up players that were once great.

  169. RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 11:33 am

    pretty much all measures of pitching success.
    ————-

    Especially that awful bullpen…

    Who cares how your rotation does in April? I sure don’t. CC and Kuroda will find more consistency as the year wears on, and Nova has been very good. And we’ve got Pettitte coming back too. Hardly doom and gloom for our 2012 rotation just yet.

  170. austinmac April 26th, 2012 at 11:33 am

    YF,

    I didn’t see velocity like that in his brief appearances for the Yankees last year. It may well have been reduced by nerves in trying to throw strikes in the bigs.

    One of his bad games this year was in Rochester. It was 86 degrees that day. He has significant mechanical problems. No doubt that is related to his heighth. He isn’t getting any shorter so he will have to figure it out to succeed. I ardently hope he does.

  171. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    If you have the money (of course they “have” the money), how can you not pursue Hamels, who is young, a stud, and a LHP?

    From a prospect standpoint, I always am concerned FA types block younger arms, or get them traded, but you still need to sign that kind of arm; the guy isn’t even 30 years old. A guy like that may actually shield, rather than block, the good younger arms. There will be less eyes casting in their direction, and it buys them more time to hone their craft.

    But since they just wasted a guy who will hit for a high average and lots of power and who is currently crouching behind the plate for a ML team and who could have sat, to the dread of AL pitchers, in the middle of our order for the next 10 years, because they insist they had no other way to get “a No. 2″ – I’ll be plenty more pissed, in a way, if they say ‘Oh, well, guess we could spring for Hamels, after all.”

  172. ant928 April 26th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    Hmmm…Burnett went 7.0 with no earned runs and onlty three hits… :-)

    OK…shoot me now!

  173. Chip April 26th, 2012 at 11:39 am

    raymagnetic April 26th, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Chip,

    The trade is a disaster. The main proponent of the trade has a bum shoulder. Oh by the way, he’s a pitcher.

    If that’s not a disaster of a trade I don’t know what is.
    ——————————-

    It’s a disaster if Pineda never pitches (or pitches well) again. Losing a season out of someone you’re going to control for 6 seasons doesn’t make it a complete loss.

    For all we know, Pineda comes back from this like Chris Carpenter did and has a strong career from here on out and this injury is a blip on the radar.

    Calling it a disaster now would be like saying that it was an epic win if Pineda had been healthy this year and Montero broke his leg and missed the year. It’s too short sighted.

    Right now, it doesn’t look good – but this wasn’t a one year deal.

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  175. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 11:40 am

    Austinmac, I think we just need to give him the time to work on his mechanics, which have been actually pretty good a good percentage of the time. He did it in spurts last year, and more consistently in 2010. I have seen him make in game adjustments many times, but his height is and will likely always be a factor. Still he is more mechanically sound than people give him credit for, and miles ahead of Brackman, which is an inept comparison that I often hear. Also in those mlb starts the nerves and overthrowing really had him out of whack, so I wouldn’t put too much stock in those sss innings.

  176. Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 11:42 am

    Losing a season out of someone you’re going to control for 6 seasons doesn’t make it a complete loss.

    They only had Pineda for 5 years (compared to 6 for montero) so now thats down to 4

  177. UnKnown April 26th, 2012 at 11:43 am

    Why was Chavez DH’ing last night and not Arod. Chavez is the better glove man and it gives Alex one of those famous “half-days” off. If Chavez is going to be in the lineup it should be to play 3B and DH Alex on those days.

  178. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 11:43 am

    raymagnetic April 26th, 2012 at 11:23 am
    We will never see Mason Williams or Gary Sanchez in pinstripes.

    Tyler Austin is in serious danger of being traded if he keeps playing so well.

    Not that we need them anyway. We need pitching, pitching and more pitching.
    ///

    And might I add: pitching? :roll” ;)

  179. austinmac April 26th, 2012 at 11:43 am

    YF,

    Agreed. He has talent not many have. He needs to harness it. So does Manny.

  180. RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 11:45 am

    For those curious, Brackman has 16 ERs in 16 IP this young season.

  181. jacksquat April 26th, 2012 at 11:46 am

    DONNYBROOK April 26th, 2012 at 11:32 am
    I’m fairly familiar with Albuquerque, due to it frequently being the host city on COPS.

    Heh, that’s just Albquerque trying to get attention. I’ve been to many cities and Abq is pretty safe.

  182. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 11:46 am

    Again, not worried about our SP with C, Nova, Kuroda and Pettitte and someone else to fill our back end of Hughes/Freddy/Phelps…

    As for AJ, he went back to his pre-Yankee delivery, saying he hoped to regain his power and velocity. So, we shall see if he sustains the good AJ pitching, now that he is free of the Yankee “tinkering…”

  183. Shame Spencer April 26th, 2012 at 11:48 am

    “Who cares how your rotation does in April?”

    I agree with the general sentiment but as far as I can tell the games count just as much now as they will at the end of September.

    Patience can only take you so far. At some point, something has to change about who we’re running out there every 5 days. Like you Kev, I’m also hoping Andy comes back with a lot left in the tank.

    But this Pineda thing is a much bigger blow than having Hughes suck again…

  184. BD (Boston Dave) April 26th, 2012 at 11:48 am

    JF,

    The 4 years of control, and the fact that 2013 may not be a “100% year” is the hardest part to swallow, IMO.

    You can root for him to recover and I’m cautiously optimistic of that, but how long will it take?

  185. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 11:49 am

    Calling it a disaster now would be like saying that it was an epic win if Pineda had been healthy this year and Montero broke his leg and missed the year. It’s too short sighted.
    ///

    No, it wouldn’t. You can’t call people short-sighted who commented regularly on the inherent risk of trading an everyday position player for an arm under 26, and one susceptible to sophomore year syndrome. Even Cashman tried to pre-empt criticism by admitting this risk. The implication is that the other side, the Montero side, was the much surer thing. Could he get hurt? Of course. Is it as likely as a pitcher blowing out his arm? No. That was the point.

  186. blake April 26th, 2012 at 11:49 am

    They should have planned to pursue Hamels from the start (or Darvish) and not made the Pineda trade…… I don’t expect them to because Hal won’t allow it….but thats what they should do…….the Yankees should never have to trade their best prospect for something they need ….

  187. versonine April 26th, 2012 at 11:52 am

    The amount of years for Pineda is irrelevant if he gets back to what he was 1st half of 2011. But that is unlikely. Probably less likely than hell freezing over.

  188. pat April 26th, 2012 at 11:53 am

    Al Leiter had the same surgery that Pineda will and he said a year rehab and he was throwing as hard as he had prior to surgery.

  189. Chip April 26th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    DONNYBROOK April 26th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    - CHIP -
    The risk factor is FAR different between Losing $$$ on signing a Chucker that goes Bust, and losing a player like Montero inna trade for a Chucker. NO comparison. This is why the Yanks shoulda been All-In on Darvish.
    —————————-

    No it’s not Donny and you’re way too smart to not get that. Not with the new CBA structure. What the Yankees were and are trying to do is build a young, INEXPENSIVE rotation to balance out the fact that they have so much payroll tied up in 4 players and will need to spend more on Cano and Granderson going forward.

    Had they signed Darvish to what the Rangers are – there is a very real possibility that it would cost them one of those two guys. They just wouldn’t have been able to fit it all under the budget. And if Darvish got hurt or was ineffective, he would have been stuck on the payroll taking up a ton of space and potentially crushing the Yankees ability to make moves the way that the Joe Mauer deal is killing the Twins.

  190. versonine April 26th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    Its a shame that we Yankees fans have to be concerned with years of control and how much Cano will cost long term to keep. Shallow Hal and Stank will never be their father. Schmoes.

  191. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 11:30 am
    Hm, maybe it is best to send Hughes to the minors. I remember CB said his kinetic flow just wasn’t right, and I agree. He is very top heavy with his mechanics, and I swear it wasn’t always like that. Do we have confidence that our organization is equipped to handle breaking him down?
    ///

    He was striding out well in ST, and getting the ball down and getting groundouts. Maybe he got used to the shorter, maybe compensatory stride (for the hammy) and is reverting to that habit, even though seemingly healthy. Send him down. Do him a favor. Don’t put him on a cross, just to prove some point.

  192. RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    I agree with the general sentiment but as far as I can tell the games count just as much now as they will at the end of September.
    ——————————-

    Shame Spencer, yeah that’s true — but rarely does a team make it into the playoffs based on the strength of their April. Team’s usually average out throughout the season, and down the stretch things change with the pressure and the playoff race.

    This is a information gathering time. The team will figure out their needs as we go along in this next month and adjust. Then we’ll know what we have in this 2012 team. On paper things are still looking pretty good – but obviously losing Pineda is a blow. Pettitte’s return and contributions from the farm good mitigate that blow.

  193. Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    The 4 years of control, and the fact that 2013 may not be a “100% year” is the hardest part to swallow, IMO.

    You can root for him to recover and I’m cautiously optimistic of that, but how long will it take?

    Yes, it is why I didn’t like the trade. Pitchers are more likely to get hurt, and get hurt for BIG periods of time. TJS you’re looking at 1-1.5 years+some time to recover lost form. With this shoulder issue, we’re looking at 1 year at a minimum, but shoulders have more of a chance to flare up extra surgeries or extended recovery time to regain form (if ever).

    So 1 injury and you’ve suddenly traded 6 years of Noesi+Montero for <=4 years of Pineda.

    Argh, it just sucks. Its not quite worst case scenario for the trade (the no rotator cuff damage is good?) but its close.

  194. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 26th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    “Al Leiter had the same surgery that Pineda will and he said a year rehab and he was throwing as hard as he had prior to surgery.”

    The doctors are optimistic based on what they saw on the MRI.

  195. Shame Spencer April 26th, 2012 at 11:56 am

    blake April 26th, 2012 at 11:49 am

    They should have planned to pursue Hamels from the start (or Darvish) and not made the Pineda trade…… I don’t expect them to because Hal won’t allow it….but thats what they should do…….the Yankees should never have to trade their best prospect for something they need ….

    ———————-

    Spot on.

    It’s pretty funny to me, actually, the number of people trying to get this blog to stop focusing on that trade…

    That trade will never stop being relevant. The logic and planning (assuming there was some) surrounding it can continue to be called into question. I’ll be the very first to admit it is still too early to evaluate this trade.. but I don’t think that means its too early to evaluate the front office. They’ve been operating without much of a solid plan in terms of personnel or spending. That’s pretty evident at this point and also pretty scary.

  196. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Campos tonight?? Oliver should have been scheduled to pitch tonight for the RiverDogs, but the Dogs’ website is listing the pitcher as TBA. I don’t know if Oliver is going to pitch or not; however, if he doesn’t pitch, we could see Campos pitch because he last pitched Sunday (Monday was an off day, so Campos would be on regular rest.) Something to keep an eye on tonight with the Dogs last game of the Lexington series being streamed live on milb-tv.

  197. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 11:57 am

    pat April 26th, 2012 at 11:53 am
    Al Leiter had the same surgery that Pineda will and he said a year rehab and he was throwing as hard as he had prior to surgery.
    ///

    He’s also young. Dunno about ever throwing 98 though. Maybe down the road, if all goes exceedingly, ideally well.

  198. blake April 26th, 2012 at 11:59 am

    Lender did recover 100%…..and Pineda may…but the unpredictablity of the injury is what stinks……if it was Tommy John surgery then he’d be out the same amount of time but it’d be much easiest to swallow because we know that the success rate is pretty high for that procedure

  199. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 11:59 am

    It’s pretty funny to me, actually, the number of people trying to get this blog to stop focusing on that trade…

    That trade will never stop being relevant. The logic and planning (assuming there was some) surrounding it can continue to be called into question.
    ///

    Well the muzzlers and spin doctors haven’t succeeded, try as they may.

  200. Shame Spencer April 26th, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    2 years in a row of having to deal with inexplicable diminished velocity in pitchers under 25.

    That does make me feel gross….

  201. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    “What the Yankees were and are trying to do is build a young, INEXPENSIVE rotation to balance out the fact that they have so much payroll tied up in 4 players and will need to spend more on Cano and Granderson going forward.”

    That’s nice, but they might have relied instead on Noesi or Phelps, DJ, rather than take such a huge risk in trading for young pitching. It wasn’t good in theory and is now not good in practice. All we can do is hope for the best at this point.

  202. Shame Spencer April 26th, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    “Well the muzzlers and spin doctors haven’t succeeded, try as they may.”

    Lol, and they certain won’t now!

    If Pineda never made a start in AAA this season does that mean randy still lost his bet to stuckey?

  203. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    Should read *second to last game re: RiverDogs on milb-tv

  204. J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    I am not advocating doing anything with him other than letting him pitch. My point is, as is was with Montero and would be with almost anyone, they have to prove they can succeed. Whether he will is completely unknowable.
    ///

    Two different things, IMO.

    Betances has great stuff. That’s a fact. That stuff wll translate, I have no doubt of that. If he can’t repeat his delivery, well then, he can’t be a ML starter. Based on seeing him as much as I have, I’m betting on him.

    Montero hitting and hitting for average and power over his career, barring injury, is a slam dunk.

  205. yankeefeminista April 26th, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    How hard did Leiter throw before and after though?

  206. UnKnown April 26th, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Is the salary really the biggest problem with trading Soriano? There are several teams who can use a closer and it would be easy to slide Hughes into that bullpen spot.

  207. RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    UnKnown April 26th, 2012 at 12:15 pm
    Is the salary really the biggest problem with trading Soriano? There are several teams who can use a closer and it would be easy to slide Hughes into that bullpen spot.
    —————–

    And what does forcing Soriano out and Hughes into the bullpen do to make the team better?

  208. PittsburghYankeeFan April 27th, 2012 at 3:35 am

    Not quite sure how the Yankees lose a year of control here. Wasn’t Pineda on a minor league option for his rehab start?

    The Yankees will be fine and in the hunt all year. Their bats are fine, and they will have at least four decent starters and a shutdown BP.

    That should be good enough to go .600. With a front three of CC, Nova, and Kuroda, and Andy backing them up, they will be just fine. We are arguing about a number 5 here.

    Phelps, Mitchell, Freddy, Hughes all could be 10-10, which is all you need from the number 5.

    Sure, this stuff about Pineda is a bummer. Let’s see where we are in August.

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