Plenty of lingering questions following Pineda’s diagnosis
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Apr 26, 2012 
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Michael Pineda is not going to pitch this year, and it’s reasonable to wonder whether he’ll ever be an effective pitcher again. Elbow surgery has become routine. Shoulder surgery is still a giant risk.
Yesterday’s announcement raised plenty of long-term questions that can’t be answered here and now, but it also raised several short-term questions that can be addressed.
When was Pineda hurt?
Brian Cashman: “We believe this took place on that last singular pitch in the 15-pitch rehab outing.”
It’s hard to believe something like this could happen on one pitch, but Pineda went through two MRIs and multiple resistance tests before Saturday’s rehab start in Tampa. The MRIs came back clean, the resistance tests showed good arm strength, and Cashman said even Pineda’s bullpens had been sharp leading to Saturday’s extended spring training start.
“After the one inning where he walked off after 15 pitches and said he felt something in the end, that physical exam completely changed,” Cashman said.
Cashman acknowledges that “it’s real fair to speculate that there was something there, laying dormant,” but the Yankees are confident that Pineda’s labrum was not torn until Saturday.
Did the Mariners know something?
Brian Cashman: “We got a healthy player to the best of everyone’s knowledge.”
Cashman went out of his way yesterday to say that he does no believe the Mariners were hiding something, and Mariners general manager Jack Zduriencik has said the same thing.
“We had full access to his medicals, which were clean,” Cashman said. “We had the opportunity to do a full physical exam, which we did, which came out clean. Michael has never had a shoulder issue nor has he complained of one with the Mariners, nor has he ever had any tests on the shoulder with the Mariners. This is just an unfortunate circumstance that can happen.”
There has long been a theory that the Mariners made this trade strictly because they knew something the Yankees didn’t, but that theory can just as easily go the other way, that the Yankees would only trade a bat like Jesus Montero if they knew something the Mariners didn’t know. As Zduriencik told Andrew Marchand: “Before the trade, he was going to be our No. 2 starter.”
Did last year’s second half raise any red flags?
Brian Cashman: “There’s a little bit of a myth here.”
The myth Cashman’s refering to is the idea that Pineda’s second half was significantly worse than his first half last season. His ERA suggests that’s the case, but his strikeouts-per-nine and walks-per-nine stayed almost exactly the same (strikeouts-per-nine actually went up a little bit). As for velocity, that stayed relatively consistent as well except for his last start when he was pitching on 10-days rest and had gone through a kind of odd September as the Mariners tried to limit his workload.
“The bottom line, they were very similar, first half, second half,” Cashman said. “The important statistical categories that kind of measure how someone is pitching were fairly close, and his velocity in the first half and second half were fairly close. It wasn’t a radical change that’s been written about.”
Cashman isn’t the only one who feels this way. FanGraphs wrote the same thing immediately after the trade. There is this notion that the Yankees should have known they were getting damaged goods, but I’m just not sure the evidence is there.
Does this make the Montero trade a total bust?
Brian Cashman: “It’s certainly not a good situation.”
Oddly enough, in some ways, the current situation is exactly the reason the Yankees traded for Pineda in the first place. Pitchers get hurt, and young guys full of potential don’t always have sustained success at the big league level. The Yankees really believe that they can never have too much pitching, and they prefered a good young pitcher instead of a good young hitter. It just so happens that good young pitcher they acquired has a serious injury before throwing a single pitch for the team.
“There’s obviously always risk involving pitchers,” Cashman said. “But obviously this was a big move that I pursued this winter. You always know, you go in with eyes wide open if you pursue this with pitching. But to experience this on the front end, it’s extremely difficult.”
Knowing what they know now about Pineda’s shoulder, there’s no way the Yankees would make the same trade again. To judge it completely at this point would be short-sighted — the deal was always about much more than 2012 — but if the Yankees could take it back, they would. And that’s not a good sign.
“Hopefully the surgery will go as well as can be expected,” Cashman said. “And the rehab will go as well as could be expected, and we’ll get a player back that we hoped we would be getting. At the same time, you can’t deny that there’s a lot of risks associated with his circumstance now and the asset that we’ve acquired because of what has occurred. There’s no way of spinning this as anything other than a very unfortunate circumstance that will certainly affect us here in 2012 and may affect us going forward. But hopefully for the player’s sake as well as our franchise’s sake — certainly I was counting on this player — hopefully everything will go as well as you could possibly hope giving the unfortunate setting that we’re in.”
Associated Press photo
Chip April 26th, 2012 at 11:55 am
DONNYBROOK April 26th, 2012 at 11:19 am
- CHIP -
The risk factor is FAR different between Losing $$$ on signing a Chucker that goes Bust, and losing a player like Montero inna trade for a Chucker. NO comparison. This is why the Yanks shoulda been All-In on Darvish.
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No it’s not Donny and you’re way too smart to not get that. Not with the new CBA structure. What the Yankees were and are trying to do is build a young, INEXPENSIVE rotation to balance out the fact that they have so much payroll tied up in 4 players and will need to spend more on Cano and Granderson going forward.
Had they signed Darvish to what the Rangers are – there is a very real possibility that it would cost them one of those two guys. They just wouldn’t have been able to fit it all under the budget. And if Darvish got hurt or was ineffective, he would have been stuck on the payroll taking up a ton of space and potentially crushing the Yankees ability to make moves the way that the Joe Mauer deal is killing the Twins.
Its a shame that we Yankees fans have to be concerned with years of control and how much Cano will cost long term to keep. Shallow Hal and Stank will never be their father. Schmoes.
No it’s not Donny and you’re way too smart to not get that. Not with the new CBA structure.
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The Yankees desire to save money is not a valid response to ‘Just paying money is better than trading a player+paying money’
“Al Leiter had the same surgery that Pineda will and he said a year rehab and he was throwing as hard as he had prior to surgery.”
The doctors are optimistic based on what they saw on the MRI.
Leiter did recover 100%…..and Pineda may…but the unpredictablity of the injury is what stinks…… if it was Tommy John surgery then he’d be out the same amount of time but it’d be much easiest to swallow because we know that the success rate is pretty high for that procedure
Once Pineda recovers, we should trade him for Jesse Barfield
Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 11:55 am
The 4 years of control, and the fact that 2013 may not be a “100% year” is the hardest part to swallow, IMO.
You can root for him to recover and I’m cautiously optimistic of that, but how long will it take?
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Yes, it is why I didn’t like the trade. Pitchers are more likely to get hurt, and get hurt for BIG periods of time. TJS you’re looking at 1-1.5 years+some time to recover lost form. With this shoulder issue, we’re looking at 1 year at a minimum, but shoulders have more of a chance to flare up extra surgeries or extended recovery time to regain form (if ever).
So 1 injury and you’ve suddenly traded 6 years of Noesi+Montero for <=4 years of Pineda.
Argh, it just sucks. Its not quite worst case scenario for the trade (the no rotator cuff damage is good?) but its close.
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Don't forget Campos. He is not just a throw in. He is already highly ranked in the Yankees org. He was not a 1 for 1 for Noesi, as you don't get Campos for Noesi straight up.
Don’t forget Campos. He is not just a throw in. He is already highly ranked in the Yankees org. He was not a 1 for 1 for Noesi, as you don’t get Campos for Noesi straight up.
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Campos is in A ball. Sorry but there are a lot of obstacles between him and the majors. Noesi & Montero were ready for the big leagues at the time of the trade.
Campos is a big kid with a nice fastball and not much else. I’ll root for him, and he has been outstanding in Low A, but … its Low A. Lots of guys get stuck there or never quite make it.
“There’s obviously always risk involving pitchers,” Cashman said. “But obviously this was a big move that I pursued this winter. You always know, you go in with eyes wide open if you pursue this with pitching. But to experience this on the front end, it’s extremely difficult.”
——————
Obviously.
Cano is not worth a break-the-bank contract. He’s showing you that this season.
But on a value basis you can’t ignore Campos in the Montero trade. You don’t get Campos for just Noesi, even with Noesi having a little ML experience.
Dont forget Campos. Campos and MannyBanny and Betances will be nothings just like Joba, IPK, Phil. If the org. would treat them with no hope and just emergency starters as they did Wang and Nova, maybe they might be something.
Shame Spencer April 26th, 2012 at 12:02 pm
“Well the muzzlers and spin doctors haven’t succeeded, try as they may.”
Lol, and they certain won’t now!
If Pineda never made a start in AAA this season does that mean randy still lost his bet to stuckey?
Cano is a dont get it type of player. He just doesnt get it and never will. He’s probably the most talented offensive player and defensive player in MLB, but too often he just doesnt give full effort. And SJ44 has said the same thing.
But on a value basis you can’t ignore Campos in the Montero trade. You don’t get Campos for just Noesi, even with Noesi having a little ML experience.
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I get that, Campos has prospect value, but 75% of the trade was in immediate player value and it was BY FAR the most important point of the trade.
Campos, if he makes it to the big leagues, is 3-4 years away. This trade was designed specifically to help the Yankees during those 3-4 years, and the players they traded were both guys that could have contributed in that time frame.
Campos has more upside and I like having him…but id rather have Noesi right now because he’s in the big leagues and has made it. Campos is three years away…..he may never make it at all…..when you had Pineda set in the rotation you coukd afford to take that risk on Campus’s upisde…..right now you lost a guy that’s in a rotation for a kid in A ball……
I didn’t love the trade in the beginning and the whole thought of it now just makes me sick to my stomach.
This is going to be a tough one to get over. The fact that the “braintrust” of the Yankees decided to deal a plus young bat who can catch away and this is what we have to show for it is so disturbing. I really wish they never promoted Montero last September. If I had never seen the ability that was there before my eyes and seen how when he came to the plate the Yankees were top stepping his at bats I wouldn’t be this angry. I know what we gave up and he was healthy.
Cashman’s a fool. He tried to get Lee, Felix and Hallyday and settled for a guy with no track record who still needed to learn to pitch and who had a Hughes-ian up & down season.
The people who predicted Pineda was damaged goods or was not worth the expense were all correct in here and a lot of you owe Randy an apology for the way you went at him when he was calling it like he saw it.
This isn’t a speed bump. This is a devastating deal. Another bad job in a long line of bad jobs Cashman has done trying to procure pitching.
The thing that covers for him is Mo, Jeter and the tenor that’s been set in the locker room where monkey business isn’t allowed. It’s not Cashman’s team building acumen.
The only thing he’s good at is using the checkbook when Daddy lets him have it.
As for Phil Hughes, my wish for him? Send him down to AAA and hire David Cone to be his pitching advisor/mentor for a month and let Coney mentor and tutor the kid and help turn him into something useful. He needs instruction and inspiration and he needs it now.
Brian Cashman: “We got a healthy player to the best of everyone’s knowledge.”
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Brian Cashman is either a) stupid b) desperately trying to cover his @$$ or, most likely, c) both.
If you’re Brian Cashman, at this point, how can you HONESTLY look anybody in the eye and say that? Michael Pineda has CLEARLY not been right from the moment he showed up to spring training.
I guess you say it because you know there are a bunch of Kool Aid-guzzling sheep out there ready to lap up everything you serve. I honestly believe if Cashman came out today and said, “the sky is pink,” there’s a certain group of people who would line up around the block to agree with him.
I despise these spin-doctoring muzzlers… they are worse than authoritarians, worse even than totalitarians… basically they are attempting to commit blog genocide. We must fight them with everything we have. Ugh, they make my skin crawl.
Campos, if he makes it to the big leagues, is 3-4 years away. This trade was designed specifically to help the Yankees during those 3-4 years, and the players they traded were both guys that could have contributed in that time frame.
Pretty hard to argue with that.
Has any other organization had starters under 25 come into camp with diminished velocity (and end up having the entire season be a wash) in back to back seasons?
Repost
J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 12:08 pm
I am not advocating doing anything with him other than letting him pitch. My point is, as is was with Montero and would be with almost anyone, they have to prove they can succeed. Whether he will is completely unknowable.
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Two different things, IMO.
Betances has great stuff. That’s a fact. That stuff wll translate, I have no doubt of that. If he can’t repeat his delivery, well then, he can’t be a ML starter. Based on seeing him as much as I have, I’m betting on him.
Montero hitting and hitting for average and power over his career, barring injury, is a slam dunk.
COuld not agree with you more, GLove.
Cashman is VERY fortunate to be working for an organization that, at least to this point, has been able to cover up most of his ridiculous decisions by spending 33% more on payroll than ANY OTHER FRANCHISE IN BASEBALL and 100% more than most.
Were he working for virtually any other franchise in the sport, he’d have been fired LONG ago and that organization would be YEARS trying to dig their way out of the obscene mistakes Cashman buried them with.
Leiter said he was throwing 95 after surgery.
Said he was probably physically ready before he was mentally ready because he was afraid to let it loose for fear of something tearing again.
Will Pineda be able to play the piano after his surgery???
Nick – Who won the randy/stuckey bet?? Does this make it a wash if Montero never starts at AAA this season?
Here’s what Cashman still has to explain. If Pineda was healthy, why was he throwing 88mph fastballs at the start of spring training while his 42 yo closer was hitting 93mph right out of the gate?
That’s why Cashman is full of it and that’s why he deserves to be canned.
I’m sick of the lying game the manager and the front office play with the media. It feels like Boston Bellicheck nonsense.
I hated how Torre played favorites and used the pen, but he was honest when he was asked a question.
Now it’s all spin, spin spin. Sick of it.
It really stinks when you loathe the front office of your favorite team and have to just swallow their stupidity because you’re a fan of the team since birth. I guess this is what it feels like to root for the Mets.
From bad to worse: now I have that horrible “Two Princes” song by Spin Doctors stuck in my head.
Thanks guys.
“I didn’t love the trade in the beginning and the whole thought of it now just makes me sick to my stomach.”
Yes, and just when I begin to feel better, Cashman opens his mouth about it, and it gets worse again.
He really needs to go, as does anyone who voted in favor of this trade.
“The only thing he’s good at is using the checkbook when Daddy lets him have it.”
Daddy is gone….if he wasn’t Cashman would be filing unemployment this morning.
“Will Pineda be able to play the piano after his surgery???”
I’m not sure, but there is a good chance he could carry one on his back.
CashmanLovesPsychoHookers April 26th, 2012 at 12:14 pm
Brian Cashman: “We got a healthy player to the best of everyone’s knowledge.”
=================================
Brian Cashman is either a) stupid b) desperately trying to cover his @$$ or, most likely, c) both.
If you’re Brian Cashman, at this point, how can you HONESTLY look anybody in the eye and say that? Michael Pineda has CLEARLY not been right from the moment he showed up to spring training.
I guess you say it because you know there are a bunch of Kool Aid-guzzling sheep out there ready to lap up everything you serve. I honestly believe if Cashman came out today and said, “the sky is pink,” there’s a certain group of people who would line up around the block to agree with him.
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Hey, it’s CashmanSUX. Is that you, Randy?
“Leiter said he was throwing 95 after surgery.”
Its encouraging that it can happen…..but the facts are that this type oinjury and surgery aren’t as predictable as with others like TJS…….if he had hurt his elbow it will still suck…..but at least we could feel fairly confident that a year from now he’d be close to where he was…..with this we just don’t know.
If we are using the Al Leiter story as a hopeful example for Pineda, who plays the role of Dallas Green?
Actually Leiter said he was throwing 97 after the surgery.
If I had to guess when he hurt it…..it was in his last ST outing when he was left out there to struggle despite clearly not throwing the ball correctly …..dropping his arm angle and cutting his fastball like crazy……I know they said the MRI was clean…..but who really knows.
The people who predicted Pineda was damaged goods or was not worth the expense were all correct in here and a lot of you owe Randy an apology for the way you went at him when he was calling it like he saw it.
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Love your post, GLove but I don’t know that anyone owes randy an apology. And I love randy on principle lol! But many of the charges against him were focused on his assumptions about Pineda’s work ethic and Cashman’s ugly mistress, not about his opinion of the trade for which a lot of people agreed with him.
I think its fair to say almost every poster on here knew what the risks would be and that we’d have to wait and see how things played out…. but I doubt any of us expected this to happen so quickly and dramatically because as you said this is an absolutely devastating blow. All you need to do is look at Jerkface’s assessment of years of control traded vs. years of control gained to see we lost value. It just makes me feel like throwing up.
You’re spot on about the attempts to trade Montero for Lee, Halladay and Felix…. Pineda + Campos does not even get you a guy that could shine their shoes, quite frankly. Those other guys are in a totally different class. I’d love it if one of Campos or Pineda got there of course but those other trades were bringing home a sure thing. That was the only thing you were supposed to trade Montero for. A sure thing. Potential for potential is always a dangerous game to play.
At this point I think he hurt it last year, or began to develop the problem. And then his lack of conditioning exacerbated it in spring.
His lack of velocity all spring was the sign. There was a chart on ‘lost velocity’ on Fangraphs, and the only reason Pineda wasn’t #1 on that list by an entire mph was because he was busy being dead on the DL.
My guess is that he had an incipient injury when he came to camp, and then the issue becomes when did it get worse. blake’s guess makes sense to me in that context.
blake, I’m thinking maybe he started the damage a little then, but not enough to notice in an MRI, and then in the rehab bullpen session it finally just tore.
We’ll see what Cashman can do as Shallow Hal and Stank tighten the purse strings even more.
He may have had some inflammation last year…..but I doubt he actually tore it until this spring……either way…….this is why you don’t trade good bats for pitchers unless they are established guys with track records of performance and health.
I don’t know exactly what provisions they made in their bet, but I think this means that neither of them has won.
Stuckey said he would pay me what he owes for losing our own bet before the one-year anniversary, but no payment has been received and the anniversary came on went 10 days ago. Sad times.
Jacksquat,
Maybe….that’s the first time he mentioned pain.
Rich in NJ April 26th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
“I didn’t love the trade in the beginning and the whole thought of it now just makes me sick to my stomach.”
Yes, and just when I begin to feel better, Cashman opens his mouth about it, and it gets worse again.
He really needs to go, as does anyone who voted in favor of this trade.
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Will we ever know if anyone WASN’T in favor of this trade? They can stay.
stuckey never came across as the type of person with enough dignity or character to pay his debts.
My guess is that over the next few years, we will read reports of all the players Cashman turned down for Montero, and cringe with increasing frequency.
This whole mess will be great as Oliver Stone’s next movie. Russell Martin will appear as himself. Best quote from the film? Jesus Montero commenting off the record to Bob Costas “it sure doesn’t look like Napoli’s defense is costing Texas any wins”
It is CashmanSUX, but I have no idea who this “Randy” you’re referring to is.
JAP
I think people my leak stuff over time. But it’s why I wouldn’t be willing to support Oppenheimer to replace Cashman until I know where he stands. (note: this is for purposes of discussion, in case anyone thinks that I am suggesting that I expect to find out any time soon)
Rich in NJ April 26th, 2012 at 12:39 pm
My guess is that over the next few years, we will read reports of all the players Cashman turned down for Montero, and cringe with increasing frequency.
================================
What about those that he was willing to trade him for that we don’t know of?
Yeah, that too, luis.
Since the prevailing meme around here is that pitching wins or good pitching beats good hitting, can even the most optimistic people on here feel comfortable with Cashman as the GM given his track record with pitching?
Blake,
Your post about Cashman looking for unemployment benefits is spot on. Had the Boss been alive he would have thrown him out no questions asked.
Rich,
All Cashman did today was trying to spin this thing out in order to save his butt. The problem i see is that i feel that Hal is on board with him.
I really don’t see why Cashman would be lying about any of this. Is there proof he’s lied to the press about his own guys before? He seems pretty straight up. He doesn’t show his hand, but I’ve never questioned his integrity.
Look at Pedro Feliciano as an example. He went after the Mets when Feliciano had to have surgery.
Both Cashman and Dr Ahmad are in CYA mode.
Hassey April 26th, 2012 at 12:41 pm
This whole mess will be great as Oliver Stone’s next movie. Russell Martin will appear as himself. Best quote from the film? Jesus Montero commenting off the record to Bob Costas “it sure doesn’t look like Napoli’s defense is costing Texas any wins”
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LOL
Monteros asking price was a bonafide ace but the brass saw $$$ saved with Pineda and jumped.
My wife always says something about those that try to pay nothing end up paying twice.
luis
As I have posted, I think (just an opinion) Hal is a complacent guy. He makes a ton of money. His team makes the playoffs almost ever year. He likes Cashman personally (if not, you’d think the public mess over the affair would be a problem). So he has no motivation to make any changes.
Cashman has some beat writers making excuses for him today. Cultivating their loyalty is what he excels at.
“Look at Pedro Feliciano as an example. He went after the Mets when Feliciano had to have surgery”
In hindsight, don’t you think that signing was moronic? That maybe the guy simply doesn’t get it? and is unable to recognize it, therefore his continuous blunders?
I’ve always defended Cashman….and think he’s done some nice things in his tenure including last year with the additions of Garcia and Colon and just piecing together a rotation there……..had what’s worked in the last worked…..and Cliff Lee took their money then we probably never get to this point we are at now.
However ….having said that…..if ownership is going to limit the spending and require the Yanks to operate on this strict budget line then perhaps they would be better off with a front Office that has had success in that arena……success evaluating and developing pithing etc…..if Hal is going to keep Cashman then perhaps he should let him sign Cole Hamels.
Yes, we can’t assume that Oppenheimer can be trusted either. No one’s hands are clean in that vile cesspool of dishonor.
They should all be sent to Montero Purity Camp and we needn’t concern ourselves about those who don’t come back.
Rich in NJ April 26th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
JAP
I think people my leak stuff over time. But it’s why I wouldn’t be willing to support Oppenheimer to replace Cashman until I know where he stands. (note: this is for purposes of discussion, in case anyone thinks that I am suggesting that I expect to find out any time soon)
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My reason in the first place for advocating for Oppenheimer as a successor is I like his drafts, and I don’t believe in just tearing the thing up completely. He’s got an inside clue about guys in the system, many of whom he drafted, and where they are. The last thing I’d want is a new guy coming in to this high pressure spot and trying to make a gaudy statement by blowing away a package of high upside prospects…that sor of thing.
Although it would be interesting to know who thought what. Boy, it’s going to be tempting to be that annoying guy who goes up and talks to Yankee honchos at Trenton games this year. Eh, probably not
Bronx Jeers April 26th, 2012 at 12:50 pm
Monteros asking price was a bonafide ace but the brass saw $$$ saved with Pineda and jumped.
My wife always says something about those that try to pay nothing end up paying twice.
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The problem here is that with Montero you saved a lot $$$ as well, probably more than with Pineda…How can this guy could not see that is beyond me.
I think everyone on this entire board would bust a vein if after the season the plan was scrapped and they went after Hamels and on top of that tried to sign Napoli to catch.
They’re excellent at having a plan one year and throwing it out the next year.
An offensive catcher will be behind the plate here again and it will probably happen before Sanchez is ready.
They will not give Russell Martin even a 3 year 30 million contract unless he hits the cover off the ball the rest of the way.
“Yes, we can’t assume that Oppenheimer can be trusted either”
This is such nonsense. I merely said I don’t know.
Montero was going. If the organization got this one wrong in the short run, I believe they got it right in the long run. That means I believe Pineda will come back and pitch for the Yankees after his rehab.
Only time will tell.
G. Love keeps insisting that Montero could catch. It either means he doesn’t undertand that the Yankees preferred Romine’s catching (their right to choose the catcher they feel would be best for their organization) – or it means he doesn’t understand that the Yankees preferred Romine’s catching.
Don’t know how Harper feels in light of the newest discovery, but this is how he felt at the end of March.
http://articles.nydailynews.co.....ng-montero
luis April 26th, 2012 at 12:51 pm
“Look at Pedro Feliciano as an example. He went after the Mets when Feliciano had to have surgery”
In hindsight, don’t you think that signing was moronic? That maybe the guy simply doesn’t get it? and is unable to recognize it, therefore his continuous blunders
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That has nothing to do with the point I made, but OK. I’m just disinclined to believe in conspiracy theories.
How does insurance for ballplayers work? Will they be compensated his full salary for the lost season?
Rich,
Sadly, you make a lot of sense.
blake,
Don’t give Cashman too much credit for Colon. That was Tony Pena’s recommendation and if you don’t remember, Colon was amazing in the spring and the team still wouldn’t commit to him as a starter until they had to when Hughes flamed out.
Colon wasn’t a bold calculated move. It was a lottery ticket they didn’t want to have to use.
“I think everyone on this entire board would bust a vein if after the season the plan was scrapped and they went after Hamels and on top of that tried to sign Napoli to catch”
That’s what they should do…..they shouldn’t compound the problem by failing to do what they shoukd have planned to start with.
“Cashman has some beat writers making excuses for him today. Cultivating their loyalty is what he excels at.”
Of course it couldn’t be that they truly believe what they’re writing.
RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 12:18 pm
UnKnown April 26th, 2012 at 12:15 pm
Is the salary really the biggest problem with trading Soriano? There are several teams who can use a closer and it would be easy to slide Hughes into that bullpen spot.
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And what does forcing Soriano out and Hughes into the bullpen do to make the team better?
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Hopefully they can get a decent player that can contribute at the Major League level for Soriano otherwise don’t make the trade. And it also gives someone else a shot in the rotation.
NY is bordering on insanity by giving Hughes start after start with no good results. I do think that Hughes can be just as good as Soriano is in the pen right now so you don’t lose anything in the bully by replacing Sori with Hughes.
“Of course it couldn’t be that they truly believe what they’re writing.”
Oh, I think they believe it.
Kev,
i am not talking about conspiracy theories, i am talking about factual blunders that you can see being repeated time and time again. Is his track record that shows that maybe he just doesn’t get it.
And, yet again, Chad makes the point that this is pretty much the reason why we made this trade. You can never have too much pitching. We just got burned on this one.
It’s not like Betances or Banuelos are lighting the world on fire so far (in this young season).
It’s tough to accept the sheer randomness of this game, but it’s the truth. There’s a whole ton of numbers running in the background of baseball, but those huge sample sizes give way to odd happenings year in and year out.
LGY April 26th, 2012 at 12:44 pm
Since the prevailing meme around here is that pitching wins or good pitching beats good hitting, can even the most optimistic people on here feel comfortable with Cashman as the GM given his track record with pitching?
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That meme is a strawman’s fraud. It completely chooses to ignore that people against this trade were thoughtfully against it, and considered age in the lineup, declining numbers against RHP, pitching depth in the organization, including five starters at AAA.
The strawman, of course, is trying to dumb down the trade opponents into people who are overly visceral, and who are naive about how important pitching is.
How does insurance for ballplayers work? Will they be compensated his full salary for the lost season?
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It depends on the individual and if the Yankees even have insurance on Pineda.
There’s not a lot of information out there but it’s supposedly very expensive for teams to insure professional athletes in general and often cost prohibitive to insure those with prior injury issues.
Pineda missed all of 2009 with an elbow issue so that would raise a red flag when determining his insurance premiums.
G. Love,
I just meant he’s done a nice job acquiring depth….wade, Chavez, Jones, Garcia etc……Cashman does well when he has money to spend……he’s never had to fill holes without spending money and if that’s what the ownership is going to start asking him to do then maybe they should get someone who has had success doing that.
luis April 26th, 2012 at 12:58 pm
Kev,
i am not talking about conspiracy theories, i am talking about factual blunders that you can see being repeated time and time again. Is his track record that shows that maybe he just doesn’t get it.
————-
Yeah, you addressed my comments with a totally different subject. All I said was, I don’t think there’s cause to believe Cashman is lying. You in short said Cashman is an idiot. A bit incongruous, right?
G. Love keeps insisting that Montero could catch. It either means he doesn’t undertand that the Yankees preferred Romine’s catching (their right to choose the catcher they feel would be best for their organization) – or it means he doesn’t understand that the Yankees preferred Romine’s catching.
–
This argument doesn’t make sense, because the Yankees believing Montero can’t catch or preferring Romine over Montero does not absolve them from either being a wrong choice. It is their choice, and their choice could be wrong / illogical / dumb. Some teams think Yuniesky Betancourt is a viable major league short stop, while pretty much every scout, metric, and fan thinks otherwise.
That they made the choice to do it doesn’t shield them from criticism.
Doesn’t understand? You’re the one that doesn’t understand. Clearly we all understand the Yankees didn’t want to catch Montero, DUH, they traded him! That is the argument!
The Yankees should have traded for Tim Tebow.
Even if you accept the premise that you can never have too much pitching, it doesn’t necessarily follow that you trade your only ML ready potential impact bat for a pitcher in the injury matrix.
If one of the reasons to trade Montero was that they believed Romine was better, then i rest my case. They have no idea what they are talking about.
It’s not like Betances or Banuelos are lighting the world on fire so far (in this young season).
///
SMH
And, yet again, Chad makes the point that this is pretty much the reason why we made this trade. You can never have too much pitching. We just got burned on this one.
——————
The you can never have too much pitching notion comes from the fact that pitchers are very fragile.
So if that’s the case, why would the Yankees trade their prime asset for a pitcher with a number of red flags?
trisha,
Romine had a bad back last season. He’s out with a bad back this season.
The GM of the team counting on him to be his future catcher maybe wasn’t the wisest thing to do.
And Montero can catch. He did so last night for a perennial Cy Young award winner.
Napoli also can catch by the way, but Girardi would have to be drawn and quartered to ever agree with that statement.
You love the Yankees trisha – aren’t you at least aware of the fact that all our great Yankee teams had offensive forces behind the plate? It’s what made the Yankees, the Yankees. We historically had guys up the middle who outhit guys in the rest of the league. It gave the Yankees a competitive advantage over their competition that led to more titles than anyone.
If the mantra of these current fools is we can put a weak hitting catcher behind the plate because that’s better than having good offense, than they don’t have one iota of a clue of what seems to be a historic part of great Yankee teams.
Munson, Yogi, Dickey, Posada are part of multiple titles for a reason.
blake – If we could’ve found room for Felix we should be able to find some for Hamels.
I don’t think they do the insurance for the low salary guys.
Kev,
Point taken.
luis April 26th, 2012 at 1:00 pm
If one of the reasons to trade Montero was that they believed Romine was better, then i rest my case. They have no idea what they are talking about.
///
He’s a good prospect. Montero’s bat is simply on another planet. Plus Romine had a back injury that was somewhat worrisome. I saw him in AA and it was affecting his hitting, his throwing, etc. I’m some guy in the stands. What were the Yankees thinking??
Maybe, in addition to pitching, they have a tough time evaluating bats?
LGY April 26th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
And, yet again, Chad makes the point that this is pretty much the reason why we made this trade. You can never have too much pitching. We just got burned on this one.
——————
The you can never have too much pitching notion comes from the fact that pitchers are very fragile.
So if that’s the case, why would the Yankees trade their prime asset for a pitcher with a number of red flags?
————–
Because they valued pitching more. That’s the long and the short of it.
“Even if you accept the premise that you can never have too much pitching, it doesn’t necessarily follow that you trade your only ML ready potential impact bat for a pitcher in the injury matrix.”
Two MRIs and strength tests that showed no decline in strength. Does not sound like someone in the injury matrix to me.
The question that will always remain, I believe, is exactly when the tear occurred. I also believe there will never be any definitive answer to that question, just a lot of posturing and speculation.
I think that’s a good point, Shame. If he comes free, they should have the money. The issue is can they beat out the Dodgers/Phillies.
G Love,
Amen
Well if we can never have enough pitching its clear we need to let Cano & Granderson walk, sign Hamels, trade Gardner for whatever we can get, trade Nunez for whatever we can get, as long as they are all pitchers. Gary Sanchez should have some buzz, trade him too.
Its fine to acquire a multitude of pitching through the draft, free agency, & trades, but perhaps you don’t trade your incredible premium asset for the highly volatile one.
“Two MRIs and strength tests that showed no decline in strength. Does not sound like someone in the injury matrix to me.”
The injury matrix refers to the years before a pitcher reaches 26 when he is more susceptible to injury.
Oh my god, I completely forgot about Pedro Feliciano!!! LMAO!!! Great job Cashmoney!!!
And Marte, who helped us win the 2009 WS, barely ever pitched for us.
Because they valued pitching more. That’s the long and the short of it.
——————
Again, then why not actually acquire a lower risk pitcher?
Does not sound like someone in the injury matrix to me.
–
By merely being a young, unestablished pitcher Pineda invited himself into the matrix. Took the wrong pill as well.
Bleacher report asks : Is Cashman the most overrated GM in baseball ?
Well he really can’t be considered overrated when he was never that good to begin with. Only three successful pitching decisions out of 100 failures. Spending over a billion dollars and only developing one young pitcher: Nova (and that was an accident)
And one World Series ring because he was lucky to get CC and Tex in a free agent year.
The problem here is that with Montero you saved a lot $$$ as well, probably more than with Pineda…How can this guy could not see that is beyond me.
————–
Their thinking is that they already have the offense. And they do as of right now.
J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 1:03 pm
luis April 26th, 2012 at 1:00 pm
If one of the reasons to trade Montero was that they believed Romine was better, then i rest my case. They have no idea what they are talking about.
///
He’s a good prospect. Montero’s bat is simply on another planet. Plus Romine had a back injury that was somewhat worrisome. I saw him in AA and it was affecting his hitting, his throwing, etc. I’m some guy in the stands. What were the Yankees thinking??
Maybe, in addition to pitching, they have a tough time evaluating bats?
====================================
Again you only reinforce my point. By the way i was not trying to diss Romine in any way shape or form. I just think that Montero was and is a much better prospect, not that Romine was bad.
I hoe the New York media hounds Cashman constantly. Cashman, Girardi, and Levin need to exit stage left.
For anyone who believes a word of what Cashman says, there’s a bridge or two in Brooklyn available.
Cashman has just been too preoccupied with tending bar in bizarre wigs, scaling tall buildings, and sleeping with his girlfriend to pay attention to what he’s supposed to be doing. It’s time for the Yankees to show his sorry butt to the door.
LGY April 26th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
And, yet again, Chad makes the point that this is pretty much the reason why we made this trade. You can never have too much pitching. We just got burned on this one.
——————
The you can never have too much pitching notion comes from the fact that pitchers are very fragile.
So if that’s the case, why would the Yankees trade their prime asset for a pitcher with a number of red flags?
///
This is hilarious. High comedy. The fact that Pineda is hurt is vindication for making this dumb trade, because his injury is a prime example of why you can never have enough pitching.
Specious much?
“blake – If we could’ve found room for Felix we should be able to find some for Hamels.”
Yea…..how does that make sense? Felix makes 20 million a year and they were going to give half the farm system in addition to that for him……
How premium is a career DH?
Montero may or may not be a career DH, or an OK 1B, but if he isn’t a C, he’s just not as “premium.” I have nothing against Montero, it’s just that very few people believe in his catching ability. And they could be wrong too. I’m just explaining the logic, and I appreciate the logic.
I have no idea what’s right or wrong, I just believe the team has not acted in an illogical, irrational, or stupid manner.
“This is such nonsense. I merely said I don’t know.”
My bad, I thought I read “He really needs to go, as does anyone who voted in favor of this trade.”
This mess is enough to drive Cashman into the arms of another woman
LGY April 26th, 2012 at 1:05 pm
Because they valued pitching more. That’s the long and the short of it.
——————
Again, then why not actually acquire a lower risk pitcher?
———–
If elbow risk was a non factor. This is the sheer frickin randomness of baseball.
*His elbow
By the time the playoffs come Girardi will have figured out which inning belongs to each guy and everyone on the staff just throws one inning a piece. No problem…
Their thinking is that they already have the offense. And they do as of right now.
=========================
Jeers,
Yes, but what about next season or the next after that one? I didn’t watch last night game, but the offense again didn’t do it’s job against a supposedly inferior pitcher.
This is the sheer frickin randomness of baseball.
–
Yea that pesky ‘randomness’ that seems to happen all the time to a particular subset of baseball players.
luis April 26th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 1:03 pm
luis April 26th, 2012 at 1:00 pm
If one of the reasons to trade Montero was that they believed Romine was better, then i rest my case. They have no idea what they are talking about.
///
He’s a good prospect. Montero’s bat is simply on another planet. Plus Romine had a back injury that was somewhat worrisome. I saw him in AA and it was affecting his hitting, his throwing, etc. I’m some guy in the stands. What were the Yankees thinking??
Maybe, in addition to pitching, they have a tough time evaluating bats?
====================================
Again you only reinforce my point. By the way i was not trying to diss Romine in any way shape or form. I just think that Montero was and is a much better prospect, not that Romine was bad.
///
No, I didn’t think you were dissing him. I was simply agreeing with and supporting your point. Yes. No excuse to wave the Romine flag as a reason to get rid of Montero. Pul-leaze.
This is all Cliff Lee’s fault.
“My bad, I thought I read “He really needs to go, as does anyone who voted in favor of this trade.””
IF he voted for the trade.
IDK if he did.
But yes, IMO, I don’t think anyone who thought that this trade was a good idea should be retained.
So yeah, you’re bad.
JAP,
I forgot, yes you have a point, they apparently don’t know how to evaluate a bat either.
Trisha – I think at this point there’s only one way to evaluate the trade, and Jerkface had it earlier:
We traded 6 years of control of Noesi and Montero for what is now likely somewhat less than 4 years of control for Pineda.
No matter how you slice it at this point, it just doesn’t look good. Now of course a championship does wonders and that could soften the blow for all of us
but at this stage we didn’t get the best end of the deal.
The problem isn’t even just the trade, and I think that’s what’s frustrating to most of us on here – its the lack of a plan.
There, despite what some have claimed, has been a ton of inconsistency regarding the spending and personnel decisions. The fact that the Montero talks even started because Cash was trying to acquire a $20 million a season pitcher basically says it all.
And that’s not to say you can’t be flexible with your planning.. that if the circumstances change you can’t adapt (ie: the $189 limit recently imposed).. but they have been all over the place the last three off-seasons. Half the time they’re telling us they have no money and the other half they’re signing (multiple!) relief pitchers to big money contracts. It just makes such little sense…. sometimes I wonder if the front office is simply that divided at this point that they appear schizophrenic. At least that would make some sense.
G Love, then maybe they decided to trade Montero for other “unspecified” reasons? I certainly don’t know whether that’s the case, but I did see posters talk about problems with his attitude (?) something they didn’t like that he was or was not doing.
By the way, I do think Romine is a better defensive catcher, at least from the games I saw him catch. I am betting that is actually statistically accurate. And as someone who prefers defense to offense I personally would rather have thee better defensive catcher.
In any event, and another thing that some in the Montero camp refuse to get through their heads since they believe they know better how to run an organization, the Yankees were NOT committing to a full-time DH since they have aging veteran contracts.
So I’ve seen different organizational schema and different suggestions on how Montero could have “easily” fit into the Yankees scheme even if it wasn’t as BUC – but none of them take into account the way the Yankees are actually configured. As if they were going to restructure the entire organization to accommodate a bat with great potential but not great defense – in their estimation.
This is a billion dollar organization. And they are not offense poor.
blake April 26th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
This is all Cliff Lee’s fault.
========================
LMAO!! But i wouldn’t have traded Montero for him either.
“LMAO!! But i wouldn’t have traded Montero for him either.”
At least they’d probably have another WS and they’d actually have a co-ace for CC…..
blake April 26th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
This is all Cliff Lee’s fault.
————
Actually, this is all Andy Petitte’s fault.
Too bad George isn’t alive and well because he would have fired Cashman especially after yesterday’s news. And thanks for reminding people about the Pedro Feliciano deal another in a long line of Cashman failures.
Blake,
If he had signed an extension….We know now that he was not to going to. of course in hindsight
Jesus Montero, the “career DH” has 30% of his PAs so far this season at catcher.
Meanwhile the M’s having been putting a beat down all week long on the Tigers.
I didn’t read any earlier posts.
But here is something to consider.
In all of Cashman and Torre’s tenure with the Yankees, have they managed to develop ONE successful pitching prospect?
The answer, NO!!!
Maybe Nova, if he lasts, but he was on no one’s radar and cashman didn’t have a chance to baby him.
17 years and not ONE single pitcher.
Something is seriouslywrong with how the Yankees organization handles pitching prospects.
Look at Texas, they have career scrubs who are dominating now.
Let the kids pitch.
Stop the pitch counts, stop the babying!!!!
Pedro Feliciano, the worst deal since the Babe Ruth trade.
Who are these perfect GMs? Where can we buy one?
Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 1:04 pm
Well if we can never have enough pitching its clear we need to let Cano & Granderson walk, sign Hamels, trade Gardner for whatever we can get, trade Nunez for whatever we can get, as long as they are all pitchers. Gary Sanchez should have some buzz, trade him too.
Its fine to acquire a multitude of pitching through the draft, free agency, & trades, but perhaps you don’t trade your incredible premium asset for the highly volatile one.
///
Um…ye-ah.
Shame,
Very good post
Seriously ….here is the ripple effect from Lee saying no and choosing Philly…..Andy retires…..Soriano is signed….Montero is traded…..Pineda is hurt……and here we are two years later….still needing pitching ….not having our #1 prospect and paying Soriano to be a 7th inning guy.
I also love this phantom logic that it was Montero’s lack of a position that kept him off our roster… what is Ibanez’s position, exactly??
If one of you answers ‘left fielder’ you’re getting a demerit.
I have not read through this whole thread, so if I am repeating someone else’s point, I apologize. However, the key to me is whether the MRIs done at the time of the trade and when he first had issues this spring were dye contrast MRIs. To my knowledge, only the last one was a dye contrast MRI, and that is the technology which revealed the tear. If the other two MRIs were not dye contrast ones, then there is no way to tell whether the Yankees received damged goods or not. Chad, this would be an interesting qquestion to ask Cashman.
LGY April 26th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
Jesus Montero, the “career DH” has 30% of his PAs so far this season at catcher.
———-
And that’s totally reasonable! Any team would force that guy behind the plate – the question is does he stick?
“Actually, this is all Andy Petitte’s fault.”
Ah….but Andy maybe doesn’t retire if they sign Lee…..
We traded Montero, who would have been a .950-1. OPS bat at Yankee Stadium.
Aw, shucks.
Well, Nobody’s perfect!
This is a billion dollar organization. And they are not offense poor.
———————–
True but the offense is aging. There are going to be days in Boston when everything clicks but there will also be days when you’re reminded how much age the line-up has
JAP,
Did Miss Cleo tell you that one?
blake April 26th, 2012 at 1:18 pm
Seriously ….here is the ripple effect from Lee saying no and choosing Philly…..Andy retires…..Soriano is signed….Montero is traded…..Pineda is hurt……and here we are two years later….still needing pitching ….not having our #1 prospect and paying Soriano to be a 7th inning guy.
——————
Andy retiring because he didn’t want to have to answer a few awkward questions really f*cked us.
Rich, I’m not sure what irks you here. You want to get rid of anyone who was in favor of the trade. You don’t automatically trust Oppenheimer because you don’t know that he didn’t support the trade. Isn’t that why he should be sent to Montero Purity Camp with the rest of them?
“… what is Ibanez’s position, exactly??”
I think he sits next to Girardi.
Timing is everything, blake. I don’t think the timing of Andy’s sabbatical was a coincidence but I’m also not trying to push that opinion on others.
I just don’t like that he left us hanging two off seasons in a row. Making moves without all the information… me no like.
17 years and not ONE single pitcher.
Something is seriouslywrong with how the Yankees organization handles pitching prospects.
—————————
In 17 yrs you should at least luck into one you know what I mean. They didn’t even have that.
“…but at this stage we didn’t get the best end of the deal.”
I certainly have to agree with that Shame.
But Montero was going. If it wasn’t for that deal it would have been for another one. And I think Montero had to go, as tough as that is for those who grew to love him (and I was in that camp – my posts are all on record to be seen). I’m pragmatic about things though and don’t dig my heels in if things seem to make sense. There was no place on the team for Montero. This isn’t a fan popularity contest, it’s an organization determining its needs. There is no question that pitching was needed. You’re staring that in the face right now. Just as there is no question that they preferred the catcher they felt provided the better defense, just as there is no question that there is no way they could tie up a DH position with their current roster.
blake April 26th, 2012 at 1:18 pm
Seriously ….here is the ripple effect from Lee saying no and choosing Philly…..Andy retires…..Soriano is signed….Montero is traded…..Pineda is hurt……and here we are two years later….still needing pitching ….not having our #1 prospect and paying Soriano to be a 7th inning guy.
==========================
Blake we could go a little further….The Joba screw up, if he is developed as a SP we don’t need Lee, i think Pettitte retired because he was afraid about the Clemens trial and having to face the media every day about it.
“I also love this phantom logic that it was Montero’s lack of a position that kept him off our roster… what is Ibanez’s position, exactly??
If one of you answers ‘left fielder’ you’re getting a demerit”
Part-time bench, part-time fielder. Who got hired for peanuts and who plays when they decide he’ll play.
Come on Shame, you’re smarter than that. Montero was not going to be a part-time bench player for the Yankees.
Its easy to say now that Cashman is overrated but when he pulled the trade a lot of analyst were giving him credit for pulling of this trade. Ppl tend to forget he is the same GM who pulled of Abreu, Swisher and Granderson for what amounted to two good players. Also he has devolop some really nice pieces for the present and hopefully more to come. Of course this one hurts because we all heard about him since he was signed and saw thepotential in Montero bat.
I tend to lean that Cashman is a good GM that has unlimited resources making his mistakes easier to hide. But all GMs make mistakes. Hopefully this mistake can correct itself next year.
does any of this stuff count as “trolling”? (again, whatever that is)
or would even the old-timer lords of the LHBlogs be OK with the tone of this discussion?
Nick
I don’t know why you need to invent something to post about.
Oppenheimer has been suggested by some as a successor to Cashman.
I have said that I think Oppenheimer has done a good job with the draft.
But because I view this trade as the product of flawed and reckless thought process, I am of the opinion that anyone who voted in favor of it should not be considered as Cashman’s replacement, should an opening arise.
If you have a problem with any of the foregoing, try to rebut it.
How could the Yankees possibly carry Montero on the roster!? A “career DH.”
It’s not like they had to sign two players in Ibanez and Jones to fill the DH spot and also let go of a potentially very useful 4th OF in Justin Maxwell.
And don’t forget. The Yankees also had the opportunity to acquire Chris “One of the 60 best catchers in the game” Stewart once they got rid of Jesus.
Either way…..as I said earlier……the Yankees should never have to trade their top prospect to get something they need.
Nick,
Oppenheimer has done an incredible job in the drafts. You need some kind of continuity and that actually knows what he has in the farms.
Part-time bench, part-time fielder. Who got hired for peanuts and who plays when they decide he’ll play.
Come on Shame, you’re smarter than that. Montero was not going to be a part-time bench player for the Yankees.
–
Montero could easily get 500 PA. ‘He had no place’ is an illogical argument.
Come on Shame, you’re smarter than that. Montero was not going to be a part-time bench player for the Yankees.
——————
Why couldn’t he DH and catch 30-40% of the time?
17 years and not ONE single pitcher.
Something is seriouslywrong with how the Yankees organization handles pitching prospects.
__________________________________________
Doesn’t Nova count?
Question to the forum:
Who would you rather have in the DH spot an aging star or an in his prime 800-900 OPS bat?
RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 1:20 pm
JAP,
Did Miss Cleo tell you that one?
//
Who is Miss Cleo?
“True but the offense is aging. There are going to be days in Boston when everything clicks but there will also be days when you’re reminded how much age the line-up has”
Against, no question. But that again plays into why the Yankees would not tie up their DH position as a permanent position. They’ve already been rotating through the lineup using diffferent players as DH.
We might not like the reality, but it is the current-day Yankee reality.
Rich, you may just have missed the joke. If that’s not true, try to rebut it.
luis April 26th, 2012 at 1:29 pm
Question to the forum:
Who would you rather have in the DH spot an aging star or an in his prime 800-900 OPS bat?
///
The 900 OPS guy, who can also catch 50 or so games?
Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWyHiV3l3MA
Doesn’t Nova count?
///
The good penny? Apparently not – as that illusive “No. 2.” They traded Montero for the No. 2, when they had him here at home all the time.
For shame.
Luis,
That’s not a legitimate hypothetical. What the heck are we supposed to do with A-Rod? He’s signed – it’s a reality. Is he going to play 3B through the life of the contract? Could we actually trade him, would that be beneficial?
luis, I have nothing against Oppenheimer.
Nick
I don’t think I missed a joke.
J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 1:30 pm
luis April 26th, 2012 at 1:29 pm
Question to the forum:
Who would you rather have in the DH spot an aging star or an in his prime 800-900 OPS bat?
///
The 900 OPS guy, who can also catch 50 or so games?
==============
So what do the aging star do then?
Odds, the only way our org in the last 10 years gets a good SP from within, its when we luck into it. Wang and Nova. Anything this org puts its hands on they screw up. Sickening. Joba Rules!! Phil Rules!! IPK Rules!! And they all are crap
“Why couldn’t he DH and catch 30-40% of the time?”
It appears that they didn’t believe he had the defensive catching skills to do it. And no BUC is catching 40% of the time, on top of it. Try 20%.
They keep their DH position for their aging veterans. That’s nothing new LGY. And as the veterans get older, it’s even more important to keep that position fluid.
That’s what I mean when I say that it’s beyond ludicrous to think the Yankees were going to reconfigure their entire operation to accommodate a player just because certain fans had fallen in love with him. They didn’t fall in love with him apparently. And they get the final vote.
Nick, why do you have such an affinity for the Wang beast?
RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 1:33 pm
Luis,
That’s not a legitimate hypothetical. What the heck are we supposed to do with A-Rod? He’s signed – it’s a reality. Is he going to play 3B through the life of the contract? Could we actually trade him, would that be beneficial?
====================================
It is. If you are playing to win. If he is aging and is no longer capable of playing and produce, he should be relegated for players that can. The Yankees shouldn’t be a nursing home for vets you know?
“So what do the aging star do then?”
luis
Why not worry about that when it becomes a problem? It isn’t right now.
Fair enough, Rich. We’ll agree to disagree on that one.
“They didn’t fall in love with him apparently. And they get the final vote.”
So they must be right, then?
RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWyHiV3l3MA
///
No, I got it from watching him bat for several years.
I don’t need a push-button psychic to give me a preview of the damage he could have done at Yankee Stadium.
Before he was so rudely interrupted:
Montero at Yankee Stadium:
500 .583 .900 1.483
That’s what I mean when I say that it’s beyond ludicrous to think the Yankees were going to reconfigure their entire operation to accommodate a player just because certain fans had fallen in love with him. They didn’t fall in love with him apparently. And they get the final vote.
——-
How’s that working out for them?
“Montero could easily get 500 PA. ‘He had no place’ is an illogical argument.”
That he had a place is the illogical argument. The Yankees had already put him up as a chip. He had no place in their estimation. That’s what counts. Not the wishlist of the lohud forum. Is that really so hard to understand?
They keep their DH position for their aging veterans. That’s nothing new LGY. And as the veterans get older, it’s even more important to keep that position fluid.
That’s what I mean when I say that it’s beyond ludicrous to think the Yankees were going to reconfigure their entire operation to accommodate a player just because certain fans had fallen in love with him.
–
No aging Veteran spends 100% of the time in the DH spot. You have to catch your backup catcher atleast 40 games.
Oy vey. Trisha is back with her perpetual arrogance.
That he had a place is the illogical argument. The Yankees had already put him up as a chip. He had no place in their estimation. That’s what counts. Not the wishlist of the lohud forum. Is that really so hard to understand?
–
You’re mistaking arguing against as misunderstanding, consistently & constantly. There are tons of ways to get Montero PA without having to ‘re-organize the team’ or whatever nonsense you pull out.
Heard an interview Girardi did the other day talking about Granderson and he said that his pull power was what made him so valuable at Yankee stadium……he said “you want LH pull power and RH hitters with opo power” ……I thought….what?
luis, on some days, he puts his excellent scouting talents to use from the dugout?
Rich in NJ April 26th, 2012 at 1:35 pm
“So what do the aging star do then?”
luis
Why not worry about that when it becomes a problem? It isn’t right now.
=============================
Because if part of the logic to trade Montero is that you need the DH spot as a revolving door for the older players, it has merit right now and going forward. If you want to play to win, the vets that no longer produce at the level they are supposed to, they should accept a lesser role. Regardless of contract.
“Oy vey. Trisha is back with her perpetual arrogance”
Pal you’re not even supposed to be posting here so don’t push your luck.
“Nick, why do you have such an affinity for the Wang beast?”
Affinity for Taiwan.
And Wang was a great pitcher for the Yanks when he was healthy.
When I am king, Cashman will be first against the wall.
Whats funny is arguing that the Yankees won’t reconfigure their entire operation to play a premium bat, but you’re expecting them reconfigure their pitching development structure into something that works.
blake
Girardi actually said that about Montero last Sept. after his display of power to RF.
Alas.
Touche, Trisha. But dont you get tired of defending every move the Yankees organization makes, even when its clearly the wrong one?
“or whatever nonsense you pull out.”
Call it what you will. I understand the trade. You don’t have to.
The Yankees are worth about 2.5 billion dollars if not more. Hal’s new found frugality, although his right, is a big part of the problem.
No argument there, Nick. I liked him too when he was with us.
“Because if part of the logic to trade Montero is that you need the DH spot as a revolving door for the older players, it has merit right now and going forward. If you want to play to win, the vets that no longer produce at the level they are supposed to, they should accept a lesser role. Regardless of contract.”
luis
Well, only two players are actually in a true aging category, and even if you DH each once a week, that leaves four or five games for the Prospect Formerly Known as Montero.
Call it what you will. I understand the trade. You don’t have to.
–
No one misunderstands the trade, maybe you should try understanding that. Hilarious.
darbodla, the 2 sons are jokes, theyre nothing like their father, theyre going to run us into the ground. I hope they sell to a rich guy that has no problem losing money to win. Like Roman Abramovich.
J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 1:40 pm
luis, on some days, he puts his excellent scouting talents to use from the dugout?
=========================
Yup, and maybe later become the owner
“Touche, Trisha. But dont you get tired of defending every move the Yankees organization makes, even when its clearly the wrong one?”
I don’t defend every move they make. I didn’t like the Vazquez trade, I didn’t like the Kuroda trade. Those are two of the more recent. And I’ve spoken about those.
I don’t think their trading Montero was wrong. And I was a Montero supporter. But I understand why they did it. And I still think trading him was the right move. I can see why they did it. That’s all I’m saying. I am being pragmatic rather than emotional about it.
J. Alfred Prufrock April 26th, 2012 at 1:37 pm
RadioKev April 26th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWyHiV3l3MA
///
No, I got it from watching him bat for several years.
I don’t need a push-button psychic to give me a preview of the damage he could have done at Yankee Stadium.
Before he was so rudely interrupted:
Montero at Yankee Stadium:
500 .583 .900 1.483
—
You are seriously making a definitive statement based on 30 at bats?
That’s like saying Pineda when healthy is going to be a perennial 20 game winner and Cy Young contender.
Alright. Im wrong then. The Vazquez one was sheer stupidity.
I just think if we were going to trade Montero, it should have been for a top flight pitcher with an established track record, because this org. cant develop starting pitching, (Nova and Wang notwithstanding, because we basically lucked into them).
“The Yankees are worth about 2.5 billion dollars if not more. Hal’s new found frugality, although his right, is a big part of the problem.”
Its a problem when you ask a front Office to shift the way they operate to a mindset they aren’t familiar with…..and its also a problem when the ownership itself saddled the team with a couple of the contracts they are having to work around.
Arod will be a full time DH in 2-3 seasons.
I mean right now he may need to be the full time DH tomorrow but as of Jan. 11th it appeared that he would be a DH somewhere in the not so distant future. 2014-2017
Arod will be a full time DH in 2-3 seasons.
–
If he doesn’t hit he won’t be.
“No one misunderstands the trade, maybe you should try understanding that. Hilarious.”
Okay jerkface, let me try to break it down to its basics so that you won’t have to come back with a little shot. I believe that trading Montero was the right move for the Yankee organization to make, based on what they have determined their needs to be. And I also believe in their right to determine their needs and I also believe they know more than the lohud posters do about how to run an organization and also about what their needs are.
I don’t particularly care whether you agree or disagree.
Rich in NJ April 26th, 2012 at 1:44 pm
“Because if part of the logic to trade Montero is that you need the DH spot as a revolving door for the older players, it has merit right now and going forward. If you want to play to win, the vets that no longer produce at the level they are supposed to, they should accept a lesser role. Regardless of contract.”
luis
Well, only two players are actually in a true aging category, and even if you DH each once a week, that leaves four or five games for the Prospect Formerly Known as Montero.
=================================
I know that. I just wanted to point out how ludicrous this revolving DH spot for vets is. How philosophically flawed that way of thinking is. So i put it in absolute terms.
blake April 26th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
Well stated
What’s happened with Pineda happened…..now they need to send Hughes down and try to fix him…..they need to put Phelps in the rotation and see what he is…..they need to hope Pettite comes back close to what he was…..they still need to be looking for a bat to trade for……and Hal needs to start a Cole Hamels fund.
blake April 26th, 2012 at 1:40 pm
Heard an interview Girardi did the other day talking about Granderson and he said that his pull power was what made him so valuable at Yankee stadium……he said “you want LH pull power and RH hitters with opo power” ……I thought….what?
///
Either he had no say in this (unlikely) or he is blinded by over rating “catcher defense.”
versonine April 26th, 2012 at 1:34 pm
Odds, the only way our org in the last 10 years gets a good SP from within, its when we luck into it. Wang and Nova.
————————————–
It does seem like when certain pitchers fly under the radar they have a better chance of exceeding expectations. I think Cashman bears the brunt of the criticism. Remember yrs ago the pressure put on Generation Trey. He expected them to be saviors of the rotation.
Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 11:57 am
No it’s not Donny and you’re way too smart to not get that. Not with the new CBA structure.
–
The Yankees desire to save money is not a valid response to ‘Just paying money is better than trading a player+paying money’
——————
But they didn’t pay money. This wasn’t like the Johan Santana deal where you trade away prospects and then have to sign the guy to a $150 mil contract. They traded away a promising, talented, low cost player for a promising, talented, low cost player.
Would it hurt them if Pineda never pitches as well again as he did last season? Absolutely. Would it be as crippling as if they signed a guy to an $11 mil/year contract. No.
I don’t know why everyone is 100% blaming Cashman for trading Montero, when it’s probably Girardi that Cashman went to for the last word about his catching ability, and it’s Girardi that likely prefers a defense first type of catcher. And it’s also probably Girardi that is a proponent of the rotating DH.
I don’t particularly care whether you agree or disagree.
–
Then you can prolly take off then from the DISCUSSION blog right?
But they didn’t pay money.
–
They do pay money for Pineda. And infact now pay for him to do nothing.
“I believe that trading Montero was the right move for the Yankee organization to make, based on what they have determined their needs to be.”
Except until the trade was made, Cashman said he needed an ace (not a potential one).
“And I also believe in their right to determine their needs and I also believe they know more than the lohud posters do about how to run an organization and also about what their needs are.”
Who turned out to be right?
Hint: it wasn’t the non-lohud posters.
blake April 26th, 2012 at 1:54 pm
What’s happened with Pineda happened…..now they need to send Hughes down and try to fix him…..they need to put Phelps in the rotation and see what he is…..they need to hope Pettite comes back close to what he was…..they still need to be looking for a bat to trade for……and Hal needs to start a Cole Hamels fund.
———————-
Honestly – not sure that Hughes can be fixed. I mean, first you have to identify something to fix. Last year it was easy, his velocity was down. This year his velocity is back, he’s even getting strikeouts, he’s just not pitching well. I don’t know if that’s something that needs to be corrected or if he’s just not a good pitcher…
Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 1:56 pm
But they didn’t pay money.
–
They do pay money for Pineda. And infact now pay for him to do nothing.
——————–
Not the kind of money that would prevent them from making other moves.
“I just think if we were going to trade Montero, it should have been for a top flight pitcher with an established track record, because this org. cant develop starting pitching, (Nova and Wang notwithstanding, because we basically lucked into them).”
But the problem is that nobody was going to give up an established ace, straight up, for Jesus Montero. So then you talk about having to trade away other assets along with Montero. I don’t remember which starters were on the market in the off season. They definitely needed starting pitching. Posters have said that they could have easily done it by just getting Kuroda and Freddy. Well they were wrong about that, and nobody knew Pettitte was going to come along and say he wanted to pitch. He had told Cashman he wasn’t ready to make that decision and that’s when Cashman pulled the trigger for Pineda and then Kuroda. As it is both Freddy and Hughes are looking like a wash, though I am hoping Freddy’s is more a mental block than anything. We’ll see in a few days.
It’s easy to say what a team should or should not have done but the reality of pulling it off is a lot harder.
he said “you want LH pull power and RH hitters with opo power” ……I thought….what?
——————————
Translation: Call them and tell me we f’d up – Tony Montana.
Every team that signs a player, makes a trade, or drafts a guy is thinking its the right choice to make. Silly silly silly.
Trish – That’s not quite Hallmark-esque
Not the kind of money that would prevent them from making other moves.
–
But by trading Montero they have indeed removed possible moves from their strategy folder. Same thing. Paying money means you can always trade Montero later, or perhaps have no need to do it.
“Hint: it wasn’t the non-lohud posters.”
rich,
monday-morning quarterbacking is easy. And this just goes in circles because if you believe they should have known about his inury, then you can say it isn’t monday-morning quarterbacking.
Things happen. They’ve been wrong before. All teams have. Not every move works out. Not much else to say.
monday-morning quarterbacking is easy.
–
Good thing many people have well established positions on the matter that predated the trade itself.
Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 1:57 pm
Every team that signs a player, makes a trade, or drafts a guy is thinking its the right choice to make. Silly silly silly
___
Thats not true at all. When teams trade a guy to the Red Sox, like with Jed Hoyer and the Padres and Gonzalez, its solely to gift the player to the Red Sox. So I guess you may be correct, the Padres thought it was the right choice to make… for the Red Sox.
I agreed with the trade.
I also agree that the best way for a ship to navigate its way through an iceberg field is full steam ahead.
You are seriously making a definitive statement based on 30 at bats?
That’s like saying Pineda when healthy is going to be a perennial 20 game winner and Cy Young contender.
///
Nope. Saw that bat at Trenton. Saw how his bat stays in the hitting zone, saw his level swing, saw how strong his wrists are and how the ball takes off. Saw how he chased outside slop the first couple times last year and then laid off and how they couldn’t get him out after that, and how ML pitchers attempted to pitch around him after that. Saw how he doesn’t get himself out. Saw him in BP at Yankee Stadium. Saw him in games at Yankee Stadium. Saw him rake at Yankee Stadium.
As for the sample size, whose fault is that, that it is not larger.
jacksquat April 26th, 2012 at 1:55 pm
I don’t know why everyone is 100% blaming Cashman for trading Montero, when it’s probably Girardi that Cashman went to for the last word about his catching ability, and it’s Girardi that likely prefers a defense first type of catcher. And it’s also probably Girardi that is a proponent of the rotating DH.
=============================
That’s why i want them both out
trisha
The trade was made on a Friday. The adamant opposition at the quarterback position started that day. Another words, saying that those opposed to the trade were only opposed with the benefit of hindsight is not accurate.
It wasn’t about knowing about the injury. It was about knowing about the risk of injury.
“Trish – That’s not quite Hallmark-esque”
What isn’t, telling Jerkface I don’t care whether he agrees or disagrees?
If it’s that, it’s a statement of fact. I’ve never seen his certificate of authenticity in terms of calling everything right, by the way, despite his obvious belief otherwise.
yeah, like why Joe felt it necessary to push Pineda in ST, saying that was a big start. Why Cashman obviously agreed. I wish they’d both just be fired, not that that would help Pineda.
As MTU said, I think the Yankees are done trying to develop Phil and I don’t blame them. He’s almost 26; in order to turn into even a serviceable starter, he’d have to be completely remade in the minors and that’s not happening. He simply does not have the tools to start.
trisha – true pinstriped blue April 26th, 2012 at 1:37 pm
“Montero could easily get 500 PA. ‘He had no place’ is an illogical argument.”
That he had a place is the illogical argument. The Yankees had already put him up as a chip. He had no place in their estimation. That’s what counts. Not the wishlist of the lohud forum. Is that really so hard to understand?
——————————
Let’s say he indeed had no place if the trade for Pineda didn’t go down what would they have done with Montero. Guys like Gio and Latos were traded already, Danks signed an extension, guys like Cain and Hamels weren’t going to be moved for him. Where would he have been if he didn’t get traded? I doubt it would have been the minors.
“Honestly – not sure that Hughes can be fixed. I mean, first you have to identify something to fix”
Nah I think he can….whether he will or not I have no idea. He needs a better breaking ball….and that would be a start.
JAP (and others), keep in mind when I argue with you guys, my reaction to the trade was also “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!”, and I thought and still think that Montero would have fit as a DH/C just fine. But you can’t say with certainty that Montero is going to be a .950-1.000 OPS hitter, nor do I think you can really criticize the trade any other way than from the strategic perspective.
Also, I don’t believe for ONE moment that Pineda was damaged goods. I think he just had weakness like Phil did and had he been shut down, he would have been fine. Instead, he was pushed – and this is the result. Gross negligence and total incompetence.
Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 1:58 pm
Not the kind of money that would prevent them from making other moves.
–
But by trading Montero they have indeed removed possible moves from their strategy folder. Same thing. Paying money means you can always trade Montero later, or perhaps have no need to do it.
——————————
But again, you have to go back to the original part of what I said. Trading Montero for Pineda was done with an eye towards building a young, INEXPENSIVE, rotation to compensate for the contracts already on the books and the ones yet to be paid (Cano & Granderson). Had they signed Darvish, whether he went kerfluie or not, I don’t believe the Yankees would have the room to sign both of those players and get under the $189M cap.
So based on that – along with the team’s positional needs – trading Montero for a young, talented, pitcher made all the sense in the world and if Pineda never pitches again (which is unlikely) it still doesn’t prevent the Yankees from building a young, inexpensive rotation and keeping Cano and Granderson – it makes it harder for certain because now you have to rely on the Yankees system to develop more starting pitchers, something they’ve been very poor at doing, but it’s still possible.
On the other hand, if you signed Darvish and he blew up, then you don’t have Darvish and you probably lose one of Cano or Granderson.
“Another words, saying that those opposed to the trade were only opposed with the benefit of hindsight is not accurate.”
You’re exactly right on that. For those who said they were opposed to the trade because of risk of injury.
Blake we could go a little further….The Joba screw up, if he is developed as a SP we don’t need Lee,
——————————-
The botched rehab for Wang and then everything else follows in regards to what you and blake posted.
But again, you have to go back to the original part of what I said. Trading Montero for Pineda was done with an eye towards building a young, INEXPENSIVE, rotation to compensate for the contracts already on the books and the ones yet to be paid (Cano & Granderson). Had they signed Darvish, whether he went kerfluie or not, I don’t believe the Yankees would have the room to sign both of those players and get under the $189M cap.
–
The Yankees do not HAVE to get under the 189 limit. And thus there is a huge difference between losing a player+money and losing only money.
“Nah I think he can….whether he will or not I have no idea. He needs a better breaking ball….and that would be a start.”
I think it’s logical to think that it would be achievable because he had a very good curve, and a good slider in high school. He needs a teacher. I think if he was sent down, he could have an improved curve and/or slider by August.
“Miss Cleo” says……Cameron Diaz will make a return appearance at some point. Maybe not now but someday they will be back together.
“Then you can prolly take off then from the DISCUSSION blog right?”
If you were the only other poster here, I “prolly” would. But you’re not.
Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 2:06 pm
But again, you have to go back to the original part of what I said. Trading Montero for Pineda was done with an eye towards building a young, INEXPENSIVE, rotation to compensate for the contracts already on the books and the ones yet to be paid (Cano & Granderson). Had they signed Darvish, whether he went kerfluie or not, I don’t believe the Yankees would have the room to sign both of those players and get under the $189M cap.
–
The Yankees do not HAVE to get under the 189 limit. And thus there is a huge difference between losing a player+money and losing only money.
————-
You’re right the team will not cease to exist if they don’t. But the punitive measures that they would face are pretty extreme and so I don’t begrudge ownership for making that one of the goals Cashman has to achieve.
“You’re exactly right on that. For those who said they were opposed to the trade because of risk of injury.”
That’s most of us, trisha. Sure, we hated to see a potential impact bat with a perfect power swing for the short porch in RF go, especially with key players aging and no other near ML ready impact bats in the pipeline, but the reason it was so intolerable was the injury matrix.
But the punitive measures that they would face are pretty extreme and so I don’t begrudge ownership for making that one of the goals Cashman has to achieve.
–
I begrudge them for wanting to meet it and their methods in doing so
Oops… cut and paste the wrong tweet….
MarianoRivera
I’ll be at @macys today at 4pm to meet fans and to pick up some @YanksFragrance for myself. See you there – http://www.facebook.com/marian.....3178828148
““Miss Cleo” says……Cameron Diaz will make a return appearance at some point. Maybe not now but someday they will be back together.”
Then I hope she is staying buffed!
Rich in NJ April 26th, 2012 at 2:06 pm
“Nah I think he can….whether he will or not I have no idea. He needs a better breaking ball….and that would be a start.”
I think it’s logical to think that it would be achievable because he had a very good curve, and a good slider in high school. He needs a teacher. I think if he was sent down, he could have an improved curve and/or slider by August.
——————–
If he gets sent down his teacher would likely be Nardi Contreras. If that’s the case I would rather he work with Larry Rothschild.
nor do I think you can really criticize the trade any other way than from the strategic perspective.
=========================
This is spot on. My criticism is based mostly on the strategic thinking. That’s why i am on record saying that no matter what, this trade was bad from the start. Their thinking is fundamentally flawed. That’s why i say Cashman needs to go.
But i do think that Montero will hit very well in the bigs. And there is plenty of consensus in that regard. I think he is going to catch reasonably well.
I don’t want to see Hughes start another game for the Yankees anytime in the near future. What they do with him is up to them. But putting him back out there makes no sense, at least to me.
Hassey April 26th, 2012 at 1:26 pm
does any of this stuff count as “trolling”? (again, whatever that is)
or would even the old-timer lords of the LHBlogs be OK with the tone of this discussion?
______________
The “impenetrable wall of ‘logic’” in these posts effectively make any response to the contrary useless, given the “superiority” of those who “knew” Pineda would be injured, and that Montero would put up a “.9 – 1.0 OPS at NYS. There are probably more injured shoulders in here, from self-back-patting than in Major League Baseball. I never voiced an opinion of the trade, and don’t really intend to until all this settles out, so I really don’t care what the passions of the moment are, but…
Chip
If he stays in the rotation, they risk losing games. If he’s not in the rotation, they risk losing arm strength because he might not get regular work.
We need a Plan C!!!!
rich, I think I saw a good number who also felt that they just wanted Montero as a Yankee, period. Not everyone spoke about the potential for injury.
Hughes has the tools, meaning the physical ability. He has a very good 4 seam fastball, just inconsistent command right now. His changeup is a work in progress. His curveball sucks most of the time, as it has for years now. He should just ditch it. I wouldn’t teach him the slider, too much arm risk there. I’d have him try a 2 seamer/sinker, and a split (which I never felt was a stress on the arm, but there are mixed opinions on that). Then he has the 4 seamer, the 2 seamer to get contact outs, and the split as a put away pitch. Two new pitches would probably require some time in the minors.
TominGA – It is rough in here, isn;t it…like an old East Side Kids film…
I think I saw a good number who also felt that they just wanted Montero as a Yankee, period. Not everyone spoke about the potential for injury.
–
Good thing the people that you’re actually conversing with do not fall into that former category.
That is false that Hughes does not have the tools to start. His stuff and pitches are fine. It is his command of them that is the problem. It is 99% a location issue. He misses his spots, he leaves balls up and over the plate. He can’t hit the glove, corners, etc.
That having been said, it’s a big problem. If you don’t have good command against major league hitters you won’t win much.
Rich in NJ April 26th, 2012 at 2:11 pm
Chip
If he stays in the rotation, they risk losing games. If he’s not in the rotation, they risk losing arm strength because he might not get regular work.
We need a Plan C!!!!
——————-
Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m for sending him to the minors – I just don’t believe that it will do any good.
Though if you want a Plan C here it is – deal Soriano to the Giants and move Hughes to the seventh inning role. I’m not an advocate of turning young starters into relievers, but I don’t think Hughes can start at this level.
Trish,
Most of us in one way or another agreed on the basic arguments. Some concentrated in the risky of pitching, some concentrated in the pitching depth we already had, some concentrated in the lack of bats above A ball. Rich was the champion of the under 26 pitching, but that didn’t mean we all agreed on the basic logic of his argument. And some concentrated in the strategic thinking of the organization.
Very few if any were irrational about it.
He already tried the slider again a year or so ago and it didn’t take.
The only tool Phil really has is a good FB, but that’s not nearly enough to be even a mediocre starter, nevermind a good one.
Hassey,
Yeah, it is, but a lot of it is composed of “Nya, nya nanayas”, which is all I’m saying.
*But that didn’t mean that we didn’t agree with his logic, we do* I wrote it the wrong way.
His stuff and pitches are fine.
–
Only 1 of his pitches is fine. Bad curve, below average change, bad cutter.
luis, I’m saying that there were those who talked about the injury risk and then there were those who wanted Montero at any cost and felt he should not have been traded, period. I’m not saying that those posters did not give their reasoning. Just that not everyone was on the injury-risk bandwagon, and that’s the one that is currently in view. That’s all.
Outside of that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 2:19 pm
His stuff and pitches are fine.
–
Only 1 of his pitches is fine. Bad curve, below average change, bad cutter.
–
I disagree and so do David Cone and Ken Singleton who know a bit about pitching and hitting. Hughes problem is missing the glove. His stuff is fine.
I disagree and so do David Cone and Ken Singleton who know a bit about pitching and hitting.
–
The Rangers disagree with them. And the David Cone you’re quoting, as you did at the time, was from 1 flyball out (not even a swing and a miss) during a game inwhich IMMEDIATELY AFTER Hughes said he needed to get a better curve because it wasn’t good.
Hilarious. You come back to fail again and again.
If Hughes curveball was any good, he’d get swings & misses on it. He gets way below average swings & misses. Case closed.
Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 2:09 pm
But the punitive measures that they would face are pretty extreme and so I don’t begrudge ownership for making that one of the goals Cashman has to achieve.
–
I begrudge them for wanting to meet it and their methods in doing so
——————-
As is your prerogative. I see nothing wrong with saying “you know what – even at $189 we’re going to have the highest payroll in baseball – let’s get there so there so we don’t have to pay one dollar for every dollar over $189 we are.”
Beyond that – and this might be Cashman’s undoing – Brian has been saying for years that he didn’t need the money to build a winner. Hal, much to his credit, has now asked him to prove it. If he can’t – then he’s out.
Hitters bat over .300 on his curve.
Betsy April 26th, 2012 at 2:20 pm
Outside of that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
——————–
lol
Tom,
I understand that you want to evaluate the trade as a simple exchange of talent. If this was the case, i would say that you are spot on on reserving judgement. The problem is that this trade impacts so many other facets of the organization that you can’t only view the exchasng of talent in a vacuum.
I do respect your position though.
Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 2:24 pm
If Hughes curveball was any good, he’d get swings & misses on it. He gets way below average swings & misses. Case closed.
–
That is your opinion. Hughes problem is poor command. I have seen Girardi say it, I have seen Cashman say it, I have seen the YES broadcasters say it.
I don’t think most of us relish saying this stuff about Phil, but it’s sort of hard not to acknowledge the truth. He looks like he should be talented, he has the minor league pedigree to be……..but he’s just not THAT good. It happens, unfortunately.
Oh yeah, the cutter, not good, should ditch that also. Another feel pitch like the curve that he seems to not have the ability for. Two seamer and split, they are both just slightly different than the fastball that don’t require as much “feel”. He can throw those in the same manner as his fastball.
That is your opinion.
———————-
Stats to back it up coming in 3…2…1
Betsy, I have to say that you’ve been calling it on Phil for a while, and it appears you’ve called it correctly. I was thinking that he was going to come back re-invented and have the season of his life. I no longer feel that way.
I’m starting to get that same “wave of nausea” I got when they kept parading Hughes and Kennedy out to the mound in 2008. Ten losses between them was definitely the difference in making the playoffs and not making the playoffs.
And you know that I am patient beyond belief when it comes to giving players their due. But on this one I’ve gotten to the “enough is enough” point. I don’t know what combination of factors turned his career around, and I’m really sad for him because it looked like he had an amazing career in front of him. But I don’t want to sacrifice precious wins, especially the way the AL East is stacked up this season, to continue to try to let him learn on the job when it’s obvious that it’s not happening.
Hughes problem is poor command. I have seen Girardi say it, I have seen Cashman say it, I have seen the YES broadcasters say it.
–
Command is a component of a pitch. Even when he commands his curve into the dirt no one swings & misses at it. So how good a pitch is it? Its not.
Every opposing hitter says it. Hughes himself said it.
That’s fine Trisha. I respect that.
darbodla April 26th, 2012 at 2:27 pm
Jerkface April 26th, 2012 at 2:24 pm
If Hughes curveball was any good, he’d get swings & misses on it. He gets way below average swings & misses. Case closed.
–
That is your opinion. Hughes problem is poor command. I have seen Girardi say it, I have seen Cashman say it, I have seen the YES broadcasters say it.
—
His command is a major problem. But you can command that crappy curve and middling cutter anywhere and they still aren’t good pitches. The action on the pitch matters, not just where you locate it.
If you roll a crappy breaking ball up the plate middle middle, the location is bad, but the fact its a roller with no action is just as bad.
One need only look at the swings and the reactions of the players to Hughes curve. No flinches. Good swings. Lots of hits. No whiffs.
And none with 2 strikes. How can he get strike outs if he can’t elicit a swing on 2 strikes?
CASHMAN SHOULD RESIGN! He could never develop young pitching properly – he can do a decent job with veterans but can’t gauge young talent – in this offseason they need to sign Cole Hamels and forget the payroll limit if they want to fill a stadium with over priced seats and food
Well guys have a good one
I will say – and I’ve also said this before – that I don’t necessarily recognize the Yankee organization anymore. Maybe it should have been predictable that things could change without the Boss around. But I used to be able to read their moves really well because they were at least predictable. Those days are gone. I have no idea who’s running the hen house and no idea about the quality level involved in the different layers of responsibility.
Not a great feeling of comfort, I’ll say that.
I’m going to give my opinion and that’s all it is.
The way I see it people need to check their priorities.
Three yrs. ago I had bladder cancer and have to be checked peroidically. I just got another clean test several weeks ago.
To me that matters.
I just went to a new Dr. tues. to see if I can’t get help with back pain that has kept me from working the last 7 yrs.
To me that matters.
I also am trying to quit smoking so I can enjoy time with my wife of 40yrs. and my children and grandchildren.
To me that matters.
I enjoy baseball and it’s a big part of my enjoyment during the season but isn’t even close to the importance of the people in my life.
If I’m going to spend my emotional energy it isn’t going to be wasted on entertainment.
Rant over.
You too luis. I think I’ll find something to cheer me up. Reading posts in light of everything happening certainly isn’t it!
Hughes has decent control/command….but nobody has perfect command Ns that’s what you need if you have no secondary pitches….Greg Maddux couldn’t have survived even with his fastball command if he threw 4 seamers and nothing else. Hughes doesn’t have good enough pitches ….and that allows himto zero leeway with his command…
“But as confounding as Hughes has been with his command problems this season…”
David Waldstein NY Times
“Hughes is guy who has tremendous confidence in his fastball,” Russell Martin said. “For him to be successful, he’s got to locate.
“I wasn’t happy with my command,” Phil Hughes told MLB.com.
“Fastball command is a must against a lineup as stacked a the Rangers. Clearly, Hughes did not have it. He was done before he could finish off the third.”
Marc Carig
“In the bullpen before the game, Martin said that the pitcher was nearly flawless, rarely making him move his catcher’s mitt because Hughes consistently hit his targets. Then, the game started. He lost the ability to locate his pitches.”
Russell Martin
Cashman’s not resigning, nor is he being fired, nor will he be asked to kill himself like a disgraced samurai.
Injuries happen – the fact that this one happened to a high profile player that Cashman traded for is bad luck, but if Pineda was the one in the rotation and Nova was the one who got hurt would that make it any better?
Yea fastball command is why his curve is below average when compared to any other major leaguers curveball.
More than 1 thing can be wrong with Hughes. Atleast his fastball works.
Phil Hughes’ curveball was not working. There was no deception, no knee-buckling feedback from the hitters to show that the pitch had the right stuff.
“It never looks like a strike,” Hughes said. “And I just wasn’t getting the reactions that I really should be getting out of a curveball.”
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....z1tAoR9GJd
Maine,
Hear, Hear! There are bigger demons out there than Cashman’s trading philosophy. Hope the back gets better. Meanwhile, lets go Yanks!
“I’m excited about it because it’s been so long since I’ve really had that good swing-over-the-top curveball that I became accustomed to like in Double-A,” he said.
Maine – thank God for that clean test. And I hope you get good news on the pain front.
Your post is spot on.
There’s no upside in getting that drawn into events over which you have no control anyway.
Missing location with good pitches is a lot better than missing location with bad pitches….
If Montero was a Yankee and started the season like he has he would be getting torched on this blog. That is the truth.
Just to be clear, I do discuss other things than the Yankees in the real world.
I’m not so sure about others though.
I think he needs to try a slider….its what Humber did and it may have revived his career….he scrapped his cutter and now throws a wipeout slider…..only started throwing it last year I think…..
tom & Trisha
Thanks.
Bronx Jeers,
If you were in blake’s office with a dam and cotton stuffed in your mouth, I suspect you’d hear about the Yankees, without being able to change the subject!
“If you were in blake’s office with a dam and cotton stuffed in your mouth, I suspect you’d hear about the Yankees, without being able to change the subject!”
Lol.
I wonder if these sports writers just save their old articles on Phil Hughes for republication.
” Where’s that old article on his crappy curve?”
” Where’s that old article on his crappy curve?”
Beside the ones about Mo being finished.
I remember when I was getting a wisdom tooth pulled, I wanted to scream “Enough about Beltran! The Yankees aren’t interested in him!” but I couldn’t.
I COULDN’T.
” Where’s that old article on his crappy curve?”
Beside the ones about Mo being finished,
and one drawer down from the “Jeter’s Washed Up” one.
As long as he’s not stingy with the novocaine he can talk all the Yankees he wants.
TBTimes_Rays
#Angels Pujols snaps career worst 0-for-21 with ground ball single, then is thrown out trying to stretch to a double
Nick,
I’ve heard rumors that blake was the villain in “Marathon Man”, and Bronx, he used NO novacaine.
He kept on saying “Bidding on Yu Darvish… is it safe?”
pat April 26th, 2012 at 3:03 pm
TBTimes_Rays
#Angels Pujols snaps career worst 0-for-21 with ground ball single, then is thrown out trying to stretch to a double
—————————————————————————–
See Cashman was smart enough to pass on at least one FA.
:
Even the everyday posters are going toe to toe today. Crazy !
I’ve been reading ( and sometimes posting ) on this blog for about 4 years now, and I bet if you go back and look at all of the April blogs, you will see the same kind of angst.
Let’s chill out for awhile and see what happens.
And Maine Yankee, thanks for the perspective.
Look, Cashman pre-empted this whole discussion by admitting the trade was a big risk when it was made – it was the potential for injury (much more likely for a young pitcher) vs. success. Whether he was coerced into making this trade (or something like it) by Mini-Me Boss we may never know. He knows the fanbase isn’t stupid.
I was in the camp of not trading Montero unless it was for an established ace (at least that was the line we had previously been fed). Strategically, it made no sense. The $189 mil magic number (and let’s be real here, it’s not set in stone by any means b/c we all know s**t happens) caused Cashman (& probably others within the organization) to jump the gun with Montero.
What was the rush exactly? No place for him? Give me a break. He couldn’t catch 50-60 games & DH another 50-60? How was that going to disrupt the entire team? Say Montero’s upside is Posada (who was also not known as a defensive catcher)? Are you going to sour on his defense that easily as a means to get rid of him? You’ve got Martin, Girardi, Pena, etc. to mentor this kid, with Romine (& others in the low minors) waiting in the wings. What was the rush? You have multiple pitching prospects in AAA, why are you looking at an “inexpensive potential future ace” instead of a more established one that’s not in that “injury matrix”?
You’ve got an aging offense, and look – the Yankees are disrupting their whole team over one guy – and its ARod (gotta leave that DH spot warm for him for the next 5 years, you know) plus any other potential impact bats are at least 2-3 years away. I think the point of many people’s frustration (mine at least) was that it was a flawed strategy from the beginning, and the organization basically outsmarted themselves trying to stay under “the magic $189 million”. And guess what, don’t be shocked if that now gets tossed out the window as well.