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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Garcia’s problems continue in loss to Detroit

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Apr 28, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Freddy Garcia gave the Yankees an unexpected boost last season, but he’s been unexpected drain this year. For a second consecutive start, Garcia failed to pitch out of the second inning. He gave up six runs in a 7-5 loss to the Tigers and saw his ERA swell to 12.51. Curtis Granderson and Nick Swisher each homered — Swisher went deep twice — and the bullpen allowed just one run through 7.1 innings, but Garcia’s outing was too much to overcome. A three-run ninth was enough to bring the tying run to the plate, but Eric Chavez flied to deep right field to end it. Although Joe Girardi has previous said the team has no plans of putting David Phelps in the rotation, Phelps delivered three hitless innings of relief and looks like a more reliable option than Garcia, who’s pitched through the fifth inning only once this season and has allowed at least five runs in each of his past three starts.

Associated Press photo

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196 Responses to “Garcia’s problems continue in loss to Detroit”

  1. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    repost:

    Actually just walked in the house in time to see the final out. I looked at the box score and apparently Freddy didn’t get the job done.

    Unless I read something that tells me none of the runs were ER, then I have to say that I really have given up on both Hughes and Freddy.

    I’m hoping there was no inordinate trashing of the offense. THE MORE THE STARTING PITCHNG PUTS THE OFFENSE IN THE HOLE, THE MORE THEY WILL START TO LOSE THE ABILITY TO COME BACK IN FASHION.

    It’s time for the Yankees to do something about Hughes and Freddy. Period.

  2. jacksquat April 28th, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    If Girardi just says “We’re going to keep putting him out there” again, I think people are going to show up at YS with pitchforks and torches.

  3. JM April 28th, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    This team does battle to the last out….Tough to do when your constantly down by a bunch of runs….

    Hopefully Phelps gets Freddy’s next scheduled start.

  4. Niblick April 28th, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    Since the Yankees starting pitching is so abyssmal, perhaps the Yankees should do what Red Auerbach, legendary coach of the Celtics once suggested: have 3 guys go 3 innings each every 3 days. With a 12 man pitching rotation, that would give them 3 extra pitchers for emergencies.

  5. austinmac April 28th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Trisha,

    Freddy was beyond awful. Every batter was hitting a line drive. Phelps looked great. I don’t see any reason to start Freddy again. He kills the bullpen.

  6. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    The Yankees did squat offensively, which is part of their problem. Boy oh boy, though, does their SP stink. Andy can’t fix it all even if he’s good when he returns.

  7. sunny615 April 28th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Garcia blows donkey balls. Time to cut him loose.

  8. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    This is on the manager. Garcia shouldn’t have had another start. The problem with him is not that he is in a slump, his stuff just isn’t good enough to navigate an MLB lineup. Phelps should have been starting this game. I simply don’t get it, they give every chance to the vet but they don’t give the chance to the kid that is clearly outpitching the vet.

  9. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    That’s where I’m at.

    No more Freddy. He’s just not gettin’ it done.

    Phelps or Mitchell get his next start.

    And Phil is one more bad start away from being pulled too.

  10. hardwired7 April 28th, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    “have 3 guys go 3 innings each every 3 days”

    binder_meltdown.jpg

  11. Jeremy April 28th, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    Well if Garcia just had a decent outing the Yankees could have won but Garcia can’t pitch period.

  12. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Early, that is…. this has always been their problem. They do nothing and then they try and play catch up.

  13. blake April 28th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Love Freddy but that’s it….they can’t start him anymore….they should have taken advantage of the schedule and started Sabathia today……but they didn’t and now Phelps has to make Freddy’s next start……he’s basically making them anyways just in relief with the team already down 6 runs each time …….

  14. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Betsy,

    CC is good, Kuroda is good, Nova is good. Put Phelps in place of Freddy and you swap Pettitte with Hughes and we have a PS caliber rotation

  15. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    Betsy, part of the problem is that NO offense can come from behind every single game and win every single game. And this offense doesn’t deserve any criticism from Yankee fans because they’ve been going to the well the majority of the games the Yankees have played. The ONLY reason the Yankees have a winning record is because of the offense.

    I think it’s pretty crappy to call the offense on the carpet.

    I warned everyone to pay attention to that scenario for a while now.

    When one part of the team has to constantly pick up another, it eventually starts to wear them out.

    Yankees are 3rd in the majors in runs.

    The Yankees are next to last in the majors in starting pitching.

    Do the math. (And the bullpen is also getting screwed.)

  16. PacoDooley April 28th, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    I feel like I need to say this again seeing this post…

    All 48 qualifying starters have a lower ERA that Freddie (he does not qualify). He has the worst ERA of all 87 pitchers that have thrown at least 10 innings this season. So he is now dead last in the AL in ERA unless you count guys that have thrown only an inning or two.

    How can he not be cut?

  17. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    Luis-

    It’s pointin’ in that direction.

  18. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    If you depend on your offense to win every game for you without help from your starting ptiching, you aren’t going to have a winning team. Eventually you’ll have a team that is under .500.

    They have to get rid of Freddy and Hughes, at least get them out of the starting rotation.

  19. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    Luis, you have absolutely no idea if Phelps will be effective here as a starter and let’s first see how Andy does. No way I’m calling anything a playoff caliber rotation until I see it.

  20. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Also, while I like Kuroda, enough with the good start/bad start stuff; he has to be more consistent.

  21. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    “This team does battle to the last out….Tough to do when your constantly down by a bunch of runs….”

    Bingo. Someone gets it.

  22. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    CC
    Nova
    AP
    Kuroda
    Phelps

    ;)

    That’s the ticket.

    Phil at AAA, Mitchell in the Pen.

    Freddy traded or released.

  23. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    MTU April 28th, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    Luis-

    It’s pointin’ in that direction.

    ==================

    Yup, i’ve saying it for a while. That rotation would be more than fine. Any recent hikes?

  24. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    “Luis, you have absolutely no idea if Phelps will be effective here as a starter and let’s first see how Andy does. No way I’m calling anything a playoff caliber rotation until I see it.”

    Absolutely fair and spot on.

    “Also, while I like Kuroda, enough with the good start/bad start stuff; he has to be more consistent.”

    Also fair and spot on.

    I agree that it is impossible to call what is a playoff caliber rotation. Nobody can say what the combination is because you don’t know until you see it.

    That said, I am more than willing to take a look at Phelps and other guys at this point, in the hopes that it might work out. I don’t want to see Freddy or Garcia again.

    And if Joe doesn’t see the velocity with Freddy and did see it in ST, maybe it’s time for an MRI?

  25. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Luis-

    Did one last evening.

    A photo shoot.

    https://picasaweb.google.com/109721757058432487394/CaveKnoll?authkey=Gv1sRgCNvg8Mv-wZzLwgE#

    There ya’ go.

    Enjoy.

    :)

  26. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    Luis, you have absolutely no idea if Phelps will be effective here as a starter and let’s first see how Andy does. No way I’m calling anything a playoff caliber rotation until I see it.

    ==============

    Betsy,

    Phelps has the repertoire, but more importantly the poise. Is he an ace?….No!, but he could very well be a good to a very good mid rotation guy. Pettitte as far as i know has shown very good stuff, the moxie he has so i am not overly concerned with him.

  27. RMS April 28th, 2012 at 7:17 pm

    If you depend on your offense to win every game for you without help from your starting ptiching, you aren’t going to have a winning team

    ————————————————————————————–
    Besides putting your offense in a hole, Garcia is killing the pen. Girardi has to pull him from the rotation.

  28. Against All Odds April 28th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    To piggyback off Rich it’s not just FAs/trades but it’s the development of pitchers as well. When you have to count 1 yr wonders as a bright spots it shows how difficult it has been. Is Cash the worst GM ever of course not but when it comes to pitching it is an area that he needs to improve on tremendously.

  29. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    Phelps, as a No. 5 starter, would not figure into the postseason rotation.

  30. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    Guys face it. It is ludicrous for anyone to say what would be a winning rotation. NOBODY knows whether a rotation would be more than fine, no offense luis. Heck, when people were talking about keeping Montero and talked about what rotation would have been fine, some of those pitchers have already bit the dust.

    I can understand suggesting a rotation, but please don’t say that you know a certain rotation would work, would be fine, etc.

    I am now more against that kind of talk than ever. We do not know squat at this point, other than what we know about the pitchers we’ve seen. We do NOT know how Phelps would work out, we do NOT know how Mitchell would work out. Truthfully we don’t have a clue.

    BUT – at this point I am at least more than willing to find out. Try out anything. And if it sticks, call that your rotation.

  31. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    MTU,

    Beautiful pictures!…You are blessed to live in such an incredible place!…I might take you on your invite for next year.

  32. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    Poor Freddy.

  33. blake April 28th, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    Phelps has been successful at every level of the minors….and he’s been successful as a reliever as well….time to find out what he can do.

  34. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    Luis-

    My pleasure. glad you liked them.

    That isn’t even the really good stuff.

    That’s just local.

    Anyway, if you want to visit let me know.

    JCPD will be here in 2 weeks. Gonna give him the grand tour.

    4 days worth anyway.

    :)

  35. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    “Besides putting your offense in a hole, Garcia is killing the pen. Girardi has to pull him from the rotation.”

    Absolutely. A drain on the offense and the bullpen.

    You don’t want it to be too late by the time you fix things. There are only so many bullets that can be used up before the gun is empty. We saw it before with a bullpen that was so spent helping out the starting rotation that by the time the playoffs came around, the bullpen fell apart. That was under St. Joe.

  36. j9d April 28th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    Start Phelps. If you are going to throw away games, at least use the ganes to develop young arms in the process.

  37. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    J Al – I too feel bad for Freddy.

  38. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    Blake-

    I’m with you.

    I want to know. I like what I’ve seen.

  39. JM April 28th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    The starting rotation must have an ERA over 6 at this point…..

  40. jmv April 28th, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    JAP,

    Yes, I feel sorry for Freddy. It’s tough to be at his position now. But something has to be done. In stead of throwing him to the lions, they should let Phelps at least do a spot start and then maybe, and just maybe, one last chance for him.

    At least today Valverde looked like the clown he is

  41. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    Trisha,

    With all due respect. I do believe that Phelps will excel as a 5th starter. It is my opinion, i could be wrong but the kid has that poise that makes me believe in him. A rotation of CC, Nova, Kuroda and Pettitte, is a very good to an excellent PS rotation. it is basically a rotation comprised on one ace and three number two’s. Not many teams can claim to have such a good rotation at least on paper.

  42. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    JM-

    We’re tryin’ to catch up with Boston’s.

    Just to make it fair.

    :)

  43. lounge lizard April 28th, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    theREALkevin April 28th, 2012 at 6:20 pm
    lounge lizard I’m sorry but unless you work for the Yankees you don’t know that. You are simply quoting chain of command. That is common knowledge and anyone could do that. Like I said, unless you work in the Yankees front office you don’t know how much Cashman listens to Girardi as far as roster moves go. Yes Girardi is technically an employee of Cashman’s. But it is possible that Cashman listens to Girardi’s opinions on the roster, rotation, etc. and allows him to have some influence on certain moves.

    ______________________________________________

    Sorry for delay in responding RealKev but, in case you’re out there: you’re correct that I am not privy to the precise demarcation line between Cashman and Girardi. However, this issue isn’t a close call. Four million guaranteed is a large chunk of change. Joe could not on his own have made the call to pull the plug on Freddy and start Phelps today. Could. Not. He may very well have a suggestion to make on where things go from here but it will be Cashman’s call.

  44. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    Start Phelps: it’s unanimous. The world will not end if give a rookie a shot at being the fifth starter.

  45. Niblick April 28th, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    Yankees starting rotation ERA – 6.37.

    Makes you long for AJ.

  46. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    blake – I am happy to see anything tried out that has a chance of success.

    I just don’t want to hear any guarantees anymore because I’ve seen too many turn to dust. I remember when everyone here thought Melancon was going to be the next great white hope and then the poor kid got up and just didn’t get the job done. His most ardent supporters, and just about everyone on this forum who didn’t stop screaming to get him up and deriding the manager for not immediately using him, in short order tired of him and were calling to get him out of Dodge.

    I’m willing to see anything tried. I just don’t want to hear anyone trying to sell “the perfect rotation”. Because it’s apparent nobody has a clue, including me. You don’t know until you do. Period.

  47. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 7:28 pm

    JAP-

    He’s already shown that he can handle some pretty good teams, and situations.

    I like him.

    I’ll be surprised if he’s not at least a league avg. starter or better.

    Try him at numero cinco.

    I think he can beat a 16 ERA.

    ;)

  48. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    luis, my point is that you can’t know. You can have a good feeling about it, and you may end up being right. And as I said, I’m all for trying anything. But I’m tired of hearing guarantees about certain young players. I’ve seen it fall apart too many times.

    At this point I am frustrated with the starting rotation and the drain they’ve already put on the bullpen and the offense. I want it fixed, but we won’t know the fix until we do.

  49. LockDown April 28th, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    Garcia with an ERA of 12.51 is just plain awful. He has nothing left. I don’t even see him having value in the bp as he struggles from the start. Maybe they can trade him. At least Hughes has a better shot of getting out of the 1st inning.

    As for the Knicks :?

  50. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    jmv April 28th, 2012 at 7:25 pm
    JAP,

    Yes, I feel sorry for Freddy. It’s tough to be at his position now. But something has to be done. In stead of throwing him to the lions, they should let Phelps at least do a spot start and then maybe, and just maybe, one last chance for him.

    At least today Valverde looked like the clown he is
    ///

    Oh, I agree. I just sank a little when I saw the lost look on his face, searching for answers, etc. This is what these guys do; to not be able to do it anymore…that’s devastating. I hope he can find a niche somewhere.

    I’m on board for Phelps, and them keeping an eye peeled toward SWB. Mitchell has got nasty, moving stuff and pitched great in ST. The Yankees have options. They just have to exercise them.

  51. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    Cano does not like the weather. He’s been sick, too. He’s the most slam dunk hitter in that lineup. Worrying about Cano is a waste of energy. He’s the “one guy you fear” for a reason.

  52. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    I think he can beat a 16 ERA.
    ///

    MTU, I’d say that’s a good bet.

  53. JK April 28th, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Mitchell has better breaking pitches than either Phelps or Warren but his fastball command needs work, he’s not ready yet.

    Start Phelps!!!

    With the schedule getting lighter after this series he could get on a roll.

  54. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    And I’m with Betsy on Kuroda. Don’t say he’s good. He certainly showed something really good against Texas. But other than that he’s been inconsistent. The next few games will tell us something. The best news will be for him to look the way he did in Texas.

    I don’t trust anything I read here, not because you guys don’t think you know – you do think so. And you’re basing it on things you believe in. But I’m just sick and tired of seeing sure bets turn out to be not sure bets.

    I’d rather take a wait and see attitude and keep my fingers crossed.

    If they want to pull up a pitcher from A ball, I don’t care. Let them do what they need to do. But let’s just wait and see rather than annoint anyone. That seems to be the certain kiss of death.

  55. austinmac April 28th, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    Phelps can throw a number of pitches at any count and his stuff is not bad. Garcia, at this point, has no chance of getting hitters out. His splitter isn’t working and without that he is batting practice.

    While Phelps pitched Wednesday, I would have liked more length. That does make me wonder if Girardi really isn’t going to give him a start. As others have said, what is their to lose. He will be better than Garcia.

  56. jmv April 28th, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    JAP,

    I was rooting for his 150 wins, and what better team than the Yankees? But the team goes first

    Maybe we should go on strike demanding “Phelps 5″

  57. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    I’m 99% confident that Phelps is now in the rotation.

  58. JK April 28th, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    83-86 mph for freddy today…

    You can’t run this guy out there again with that kind of stuff.

  59. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    JK, his sinker has so much movement, sometimes it’s difficult to harness. He did command it much better in last season’s second half, however, so strides have been made.

    I will have a chance to see DJ tomorrow in Allentown.

  60. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    Rich, judging from Girardi’s responses and the overwhelming logic pointing to him, I agree that Phelps is in the rotation.

  61. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    JAP

    They really have no choice. Garcia is non-competitive at this point.

  62. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    jmv April 28th, 2012 at 7:35 pm
    JAP,

    I was rooting for his 150 wins, and what better team than the Yankees? But the team goes first

    Maybe we should go on strike demanding “Phelps 5?
    ///

    Phelps Phive? I like ;).

    But I think we won’t have to.

  63. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    Trisha,

    I very seldom talk this way about prospects. I think this is the fourth time….Gardner, Nova, Voldemort and Phelps…I would have talked about Cano if i had been in the blog. The other kid i think can excel is Mitchell. I am not guaranteeing anything, i just voicing an opinion. I do understand your skepticism, but i think you are directing it to the wrong people.

    By the way, your comment that the offense can not be asked to climb a big hole every night is spot on.

  64. JK April 28th, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    J. Alfred

    Don’t get me wrong I love Mitchell. He has wicked fastball movement (Webb & Wang) a plus curve and plus change. He has better breaking pitches than Kennedy, but he needs to command that fastball to be successful in the majors.

  65. MikeK April 28th, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    Phelps to the rotation, Mitchell as the long man after DFA’ing Garcia. When Pettitte returns, Hughes to the pen.

  66. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    Kuroda isn’t good??

    He’s a veteran pitcher who throws 92 mph and knows how to pitch, not some guy we’re waiting to see if he can handle ML hitters.

    SMH

  67. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    No, Hughes has to go to the mL, not only to learn another pitch, but to remain stretched out given how in flux the rotation is likely to be this season.

  68. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    DJ does have to harness that sinker at times, but has picked up right where he left off last year. While others have been struggling, he is rocking a 8.22 K/9 and 2.74 BB/9 rate.

  69. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    Oh i forgot JOBA!!! how could I forget??!! is five

  70. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Wanna hear the good news ?

    When we get this Ro back to where it should be we’re gonna be awesome.

    :)

  71. tomingeorgia April 28th, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    CC gets them tomorrow.

    We do a lot of weddings and elopements here, and I’ve always had a roster of good judges and pastors who can do the job on short notice, but for a wedding next Saturday, couldn’t find anyone.

    Luckily, I am an ordained Reverend of the Universal Life Church ($65.00 on the Net) for just these eventualities. Other than the times when I was a charter boat captain, when I perfumed a few marriages (good for the duration of the voyage only), this will be my first marriage sanctioned by the State of Georgia.

    Basically, the bride and groom want a “do you? do you? by the powers invested in me, you’re hitched.” Piece of cake.

    Pardon the diversion from the doom and gloom, but I’m looking forward to it! Nice kids.

  72. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    JK April 28th, 2012 at 7:41 pm
    J. Alfred

    Don’t get me wrong I love Mitchell. He has wicked fastball movement (Webb & Wang) a plus curve and plus change. He has better breaking pitches than Kennedy, but he needs to command that fastball to be successful in the majors.
    ////

    Yeah I think he’s been getting after it, command wise. Haven’t seen him live yet, but hope to make it to tomorrow’s matinee. Loved what I saw of him, sinker and offspeed wise in ST. Sooner or later, they have to give these kids a chance.

  73. JK April 28th, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    I wonder if they don’t want to Jerk Phelps around like Joba with Pettitte coming back within 3 starts. They really have no choice right now.

  74. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    No, Hughes has to go to the mL, not only to learn another pitch, but to remain stretched out given how in flux the rotation is likely to be this season.

    ==============================

    If the team wants to recover his investment on Hughes, he should stay down the rest of the season. The reason is two fold: 1) he needs to learn and develop his secondary pitches and 2) the extra year of control. Otherwise you are basically prepping for another team.

  75. hardwired7 April 28th, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    1.08 WHIP and a .200 BAA so far this yr for Phelps.

    All we are saying is give youth a chance.

  76. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:43 pm
    Oh i forgot JOBA!!! how could I forget??!! is five
    ///

    :D
    Did you see where his arm feels “the best it’s ever felt”??

  77. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    “Pardon the diversion from the doom and gloom, but I’m looking forward to it!”

    No doom nor gloom. Their payroll is the great eraser. Hoping for a better decision-making is actually a display of optimism.

  78. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:48 pm

    All we are saying is give youth a chance.
    ///

    beautiful

  79. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 7:48 pm

    luis

    Sure, but I will settle for half a loaf if the secondary pitch(es) come around sooner and they have a need.

  80. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    Hoping for a better decision-making is actually a display of optimism.
    ////

    That would be a thinking man’s optimism :D

  81. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    Tom,

    From now on, you are “Reverend Tom” to me. Would you like anything your grace?? ;)

  82. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    Tom, congrats! Sounds like fun. Pics or it didn’t happen. ;)

  83. tomingeorgia April 28th, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    luis,
    A tithe would do.

  84. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:43 pm
    Oh i forgot JOBA!!! how could I forget??!! is five
    ///

    :D
    Did you see where his arm feels “the best it’s ever felt”??

    ============

    He is a guy they should be looking seriously as SP for 2013 and beyond. ;)

  85. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    luis, thanks. Again, I totally respect anyone vouching for someone they believe can get the job done. But guarantees are for the birds. Too many times we’ve gotten burned on someone’s favorite minor leaguer. ( not yours, I’m talking about in the past)

    My skepticism is only directed toward posters who think they KNOW what is going to happen with a player coming up from the minors. They just make themselves look stupid if it doesn’t work out.

    You had to be here when the talk of the forum was Mark Melancon and there was universal accord (I was not in on it because I don’t follow the minors closely enough) about the need to call him up YESTERDAY! There was so much screaming about his not being called up that I thought some people were going to stroke out. Well he was called up, the poor kid couldn’t get the job done, and the forum harpies who had formerly supported him wanted him to disappear immediately.

    The smartest people on this forum, to me, are the ones who are smart enough to know that they really don’t know. Guessing something may work out is fine. But unequivocally vouching for someone who hasn’t been totally game tested is nutso. You never know what someone is going to do under the pressure of the spotlight in the Bronx.

    Cripes, if the Yankee scouts think they have the handle on players and things don’t work out, how much moreso people behind a keyboard!

  86. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 7:43 pm
    DJ does have to harness that sinker at times, but has picked up right where he left off last year. While others have been struggling, he is rocking a 8.22 K/9 and 2.74 BB/9 rate.
    ////

    That’s pretty healthy right there.

  87. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    “All we are saying is give youth a chance.”

    That’s all you are saying. And I applaud you for saying that.

    There are a few who are a lot more bravado about it…

  88. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    He is a guy they should be looking seriously as SP for 2013 and beyond.
    ///

    It’s happenin’. :D

  89. theREALkevin April 28th, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    Lounge, fair enough, & you’re right that clearly with the 4 mil & decent year last yr they’ve been trying to give him every opportunity to turn it around.

  90. PacoDooley April 28th, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    Shocking that a team that had 7 potentially quality starters in camp might now need to start a guy like Phelps. He would be better than Freddie, almost no doubt about that, but still a shocking situation given where they were a few weeks ago.

    If Hughes fails, I see someone like Oswalt getting a call.

  91. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    Rich,

    I wouldn’t count on this guys to make the right choice unless they are forced to do so. I don’t think they are in as a bad shape as you think.

  92. tomingeorgia April 28th, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    yankeefem,
    I’ll post pics, I promise!.

  93. JK April 28th, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    yankeefeminista,

    Mitchell = Groundballs & Ks

    With this stadium the Yankees are going to have to target right handed pitchers with those attributes. It’s the main reason I feel Kuroda will eventually be good for the Yankees this season, he does both. It’s also the reason I don’t think Hughes has a future with this team, fly ball pitcher with no out pitch for lefties.

  94. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    Luis, that’s all well and good, but I can’t possibly judge how Phelps is going to perform as a starter based on some good outings out of the pen. We all thought Phil had poise in 2007…………I’m not comparing the two, I’m must saying that it’s way too small a sample. At this point, I’m fine with switching the two pitchers because Phelps can’t be any worse.

  95. luis April 28th, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    tomingeorgia April 28th, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    luis,
    A tithe would do.

    ======================

    Consider it done!! :D

  96. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    Both Freddy and Phil are killing the pen……… Joe has no more confidence in Phil, that’s obvious, as he removed him relatively early in the game in Texas. Rightly so, I might add. Both have to go.

  97. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    luis

    What do you mean by bad shape?

  98. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    “We all thought Phil had poise in 2007………”

    He did. He got hurt.

  99. blake April 28th, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    Honestly I think there is a good chance Freddy is hurt…..his velocity was up from last year in ST and now its down….you don’t lose velocity this time of year for no reason….his velo is down….he can’t command anything….maybe his shoulder is hurting and he’s trying to pitch through it to keep his job…..wouldn’t be surprised if a DL stint is coming and Phelps to the rotation….Mitchell called up.

  100. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    JK April 28th, 2012 at 7:55 pm
    yankeefeminista,

    Mitchell = Groundballs & Ks

    With this stadium the Yankees are going to have to target right handed pitchers with those attributes. It’s the main reason I feel Kuroda will eventually be good for the Yankees this season, he does both. It’s also the reason I don’t think Hughes has a future with this team, fly ball pitcher with no out pitch for lefties.
    ///

    Nova as well. Betances is also a GB/K guy, who attacks lefties very well. Nothing better than groundballs and Ks.

  101. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 7:57 pm

    luis

    What do you mean by bad shape?

    ===========================

    I meant that the rotation should be fine, i honestly don’t think that Phil will be needed. I rather wait until he is ready than push him back too soon.

  102. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:02 pm

    Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    “We all thought Phil had poise in 2007………”

    He did. He got hurt.

    =========================

    This….

  103. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 8:02 pm

    luis

    I don’t disagree, but it won’t be fine unless they are pro-active.

    If you think I was suggesting that it’s in bad shape because I said that Hughes should be recalled, if necessary, well, that’s a contingency plan. I hope it wouldn’t be necessary, but how can it be ruled out?

  104. JK April 28th, 2012 at 8:02 pm

    Phil showed a great change in 2007 & had a knock out curve. What in the world happened to his plus plus fastball command and curve?

  105. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    We have plenty of time to determine who our #5 SP is; the other 4 spots are set and with the May 7th off day, we should be fine. We didn’t even have a legit #5 starter the year we won the World Series… And Joba was a 157 innings #4 until he was shut down.

  106. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    JAP,

    Yes, Nova and Betances….Maybe they should teach Phil a two seamer

  107. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 8:04 pm

    “I can’t possibly judge how Phelps is going to perform as a starter based on some good outings out of the pen. We all thought Phil had poise in 2007…………I’m not comparing the two, I’m must saying that it’s way too small a sample. At this point, I’m fine with switching the two pitchers because Phelps can’t be any worse.”

    Betsy I totally agree on all points. And definitely on waiting to see what Kuroda brings to the table in his next several starts. Or at least to the point where we see consistency and feel he can be trusted. That hasn’t happened yet.

    He has a 1-3 record ando gave up 4 ER in one game and 6 ER in another and had his best start against a team he always faced in interleague play. That’s not necesarrily a rousing recommendation.

    He was great against Texas. Now we wait to see whether we see more of that Kuroda or the one who busted in the other games.

    You’re absolutely right not to annoint him anything right now.

    I still have to laugh at people who give guarantees. How many times do you have to be burned to realize that not everyone is cut out for the Bronx, despite their pedigree elsewhere?

    If people’s favs work out, all the better for us. But at this point I feel I can trust CC and Nova. The rest is a waiting game for me.

  108. Niblick April 28th, 2012 at 8:04 pm

    Jose Campos – 2 2/3 innings – 8 ER. ERA over 4.

    Looks like he finally caught Yankee pitcher disease.

    Great trade.

  109. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    Rich, I can’t keep blaming the injuries for everything that’s happened since. Also, poise is not something that should flit in and out; you either have it or you don’t. I was actually specifically referring to 2007 ALDS against the Indians – I thought the kid had ice water in his veins. Since then, he’s just not a very confident or poised pitcher. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that since he was a kid he was likely the best pitcher by far on his or the other team and now he’s at a point where others have passed him by and he’s not nearly as dominant as he once was. Perhaps that has rattled him subconsciously – I don’t know.

  110. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 8:02 pm

    luis

    I don’t disagree, but it won’t be fine unless they are pro-active.

    If you think I was suggesting that it’s in bad shape because I said that Hughes should be recalled, if necessary, well, that’s a contingency plan. I hope it wouldn’t be necessary, but how can it be ruled out?

    ============================

    Nope, you can’t rule it out unfortunately.

  111. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 8:06 pm

    luis – I think that ultimately the rotation will be fine. I’m honest enough to admit I have no idea what the component will be when that happens. Again, I’ve been fooled too many times. In fact we all have.

  112. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    JK, it was one game where he showed the great change and curve. Do we know that he really had those pitches? Perhaps it was just one day when everything was working. Either way, the fact is that Phil can’t throw the curve anymore, for whatever reason……..and he’s only recently shown an interest in the change. He’s a hard kid to figure out.

  113. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    We have plenty of time to determine who our #5 SP is; the other 4 spots are set and with the May 7th off day, we should be fine. We didn’t even have a legit #5 starter the year we won the World Series… And Joba was a 157 innings #4 until he was shut down.

    ==============================

    On point as usual.

  114. JK April 28th, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    JAP,

    Lefties + right handers that miss bats & get groundballs

    Banuelos, Betances, Nova, Phelps & Mitchell all fit the bill. Noesi didn’t & Hughes doesn’t.

  115. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:08 pm

    Trish, I’m not down on Kuroda like you are, but I just want to see him being more consistent.

  116. Niblick April 28th, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    “Miss bats” is one of the dumbest cliches ever to have overtaken certain aspects of baseball.

  117. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:03 pm
    JAP,

    Yes, Nova and Betances….Maybe they should teach Phil a two seamer

    ///

    I’m all for that. He was really down in the zone in ST. A little pressure would help him get some groundouts, like he was in ST.

  118. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    “Phil showed a great change in 2007 & had a knock out curve. What in the world happened to his plus plus fastball command and curve?”

    My guess is 1) he had two leg injuries in 2007, the original hamstring and an ankle when it rolled it over during rehab. Then he had the rib issue early in 2008. Young pitches need to pitch, both to maintain arm strength and to have a feel for their pitches. So at some point he lost the feel and/or was reluctant to push off the leg as a result of the injuries.

    Then 2), he is in the pen in 2009 and he has to go with what works in the here and now, and that turned out to be the FB and cutter. When he was put back in the rotation in 2010, he stayed with those, by and large.

    In 2011, he came to camp out of shape, and hurts the shoulder trying to compensate for the loss of velo. So what you have is a still young pitcher, who hasn’t pitched a lot of innings since 2007 (in the aggregate), and who has lost the feel for what made him special.

  119. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    Betsy

    You can do what you want. I think the facts are contra.

  120. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 8:11 pm

    “Phil showed a great change in 2007 & had a knock out curve. What in the world happened to his plus plus fastball command and curve?”

    My guess is 1) he had two leg injuries in 2007, the original hamstring and an ankle when it rolled it over during rehab. Then he had the rib issue early in 2008. Young pitches need to pitch, both to maintain arm strength and to have a feel for their pitches. So at some point he lost the feel and/or was reluctant to push off the leg as a result of the injuries.

    Then 2), he is in the pen in 2009 and he has to go with what works in the here and now, and that turned out to be the FB and cutter. When he was put back in the rotation in 2010, he stayed with those, by and large.

    In 2011, he came to camp out of shape, and hurts the shoulder trying to compensate for the loss of velo. So what you have is a still young pitcher, who hasn’t pitched a lot of innings since 2007 (in the aggregate), and who has lost the feel for what made him special.

    ================================

    And this in turns shakes his inner confidence and therefore his ability to succeed.

  121. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    blake, I wondered the same thing about Freddy. And I’m also wondering based on their recent bad experiences why they wouldn’t be asking for an MRI at this point.

    I have thoughts on things and I can never know how valid they are. But I have to wonder whether Brian Cashman’s distraction with his marriage falling apart, his being outed as having a mistress in upstate NY or wherever she was, and then his relationship with this latest floozie, have taken over so much of his time that he really doesn’t have the focus or capacity to put the time and effort in that he did in the past. Just something swirling around my mind. I’m hardly in a position to damn him to hell or to suggest that he is the reason for everything from the civil war to the current depression in the world.

  122. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    JK April 28th, 2012 at 8:08 pm
    JAP,

    Lefties + right handers that miss bats & get groundballs

    Banuelos, Betances, Nova, Phelps & Mitchell all fit the bill. Noesi didn’t & Hughes doesn’t.
    ///

    Yes, that’s a rotation of young live arms with a world of potential.

  123. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 8:13 pm

    True, luis, it’s like a negative feedback loop.

  124. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    Ok, Rich – I just place more importance on the player and you place it more on luck or the organization so we just definitely disagree philosophically.

  125. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    Hughes just needs to be able to pitch and work on his repertoire without having to worry about results. He can be a heckuva good pitcher still if he is handled correctly.

  126. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:16 pm

    JAP,

    I wouldn’t say that he needs the pressure. I think he needs to regain his confidence back, which in turn will enable him to finish his pitches. I do think that he has a confidence crisis. It’s a dominoes effect, that why he needs to go down to learn to trust his stuff again.

  127. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 8:17 pm

    “Trish, I’m not down on Kuroda like you are, but I just want to see him being more consistent.”

    Betsy, I’m not saying I’m down on him, especially after the performance he turned in against the Rangers. I was certainly more skeptical of him before that. But I’m not taking anything so simplistic as someone telling me Kuroda is good when he has the record he does so far. Yeah I know he was real good in the NL. That was then, this is now.

    He has to be more consistent to be of any value to the starting rotation.

    Frankly, I don’t remember the last time we had a starting rotation that was so unreliable. Well maybe 2008. But I don’t remember before that. Usually our starting ro was among the best.

  128. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:17 pm

    You can try to teach Phil the two-seamer and that would be fine, but he’s tried all sorts of newish pitches for him and none of them really stick. I’m not sure he would want to trade his high FB and Ks for less glamorous groundouts.

  129. tomingeorgia April 28th, 2012 at 8:17 pm

    luis,
    When might I expect the check?

  130. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 8:11 pm
    “Phil showed a great change in 2007 & had a knock out curve. What in the world happened to his plus plus fastball command and curve?”

    My guess is 1) he had two leg injuries in 2007, the original hamstring and an ankle when it rolled it over during rehab. Then he had the rib issue early in 2008. Young pitches need to pitch, both to maintain arm strength and to have a feel for their pitches. So at some point he lost the feel and/or was reluctant to push off the leg as a result of the injuries.

    Then 2), he is in the pen in 2009 and he has to go with what works in the here and now, and that turned out to be the FB and cutter. When he was put back in the rotation in 2010, he stayed with those, by and large.

    In 2011, he came to camp out of shape, and hurts the shoulder trying to compensate for the loss of velo. So what you have is a still young pitcher, who hasn’t pitched a lot of innings since 2007 (in the aggregate), and who has lost the feel for what made him special.
    ///

    You mean, it’s not the silver spoon in his mouth that’s done him in? ;).

    Seriously, I think people just have reached their Phil Hughes threshold and just don’t want to hear from him again. I think if they give a little reinvention a chance, he’ll be heard from again.

    25 years old is no time to fold.

  131. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    YF,

    Yes, you can’t work on your pitches at the same time that you are being required to succeed. That’s why i said that leaving him in the rotation was setting him up to fail.

  132. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:18 pm

    Trish, Kuroda HAS to be more consistent – even if he’s just consistently average. I’ve never seen a bullpen worked to death like it was early in 2009, but this is coming darn close – if it hasn’t surpassed it.

  133. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:19 pm

    tomingeorgia April 28th, 2012 at 8:17 pm
    luis,
    When might I expect the check?
    ________
    Pics, then check. ;)

  134. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    Betsy

    What did I say above that isn’t accurate?

    Since 2007, he has only pitched more than 86 innings one time in the ML, and that was in 2010.

    If you want to say he will never be healthy, ok, but if you think health or lack thereof is more the result of chance, as I do, and then factor in that he hasn’t suffered a debilitating injury that could permanently derail his career, what is the factual basis for disagreeing with my point that his development has been short-circuited?

  135. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    tomingeorgia April 28th, 2012 at 8:17 pm

    luis,
    When might I expect the check?

    ========================

    :D whenever you desire it, your grace!!

  136. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:16 pm
    JAP,

    I wouldn’t say that he needs the pressure
    ///

    Luis, sorry. I meant finger pressure :D.

  137. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    Consistency this early is asking a lot. Kuroda has pitched in only 4 games. Our top 4 should pitch to their norm, but it’s still April.

  138. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    I will say that leaving Phil in the rotation is only serving to destroy whatever confidence he has. It doesn’t help him and, more importantly, the team. So, either put him in the pen or send him down…….but I just don’t see the point of sending him to low minors. Who exactly do we trust to try and break him down and put him together again (if that’s even possible given what material there is to work with)?

    If the Yankees want to send him down there to be rebuilt, then it means they probably are going to have to re-sign him as a FA. That might not be so expensive as Phil’s options now are very limited; what team is going to spend big bucks on him? He might prefer to stay in the organization with a chance to start for the Yanks again……..or he might prefer to take his chances on the open market. If it’s the former, they might want to discuss this with him after the season and see where he stands.

  139. Jason22 April 28th, 2012 at 8:22 pm

    The good Tyler Austin 2-3 Two HR’s, one a grand slam, 8 on the season 6 RBI.

    The bad Campos 2.2 7 hits 8 runs 8 earned 3 walks 3 k’s

  140. mick April 28th, 2012 at 8:23 pm

    just got back from the game…almost witnessed a miracle…the real miracle is joe throwing away games, games he said could keep you out of the playoffs…..not only does phucken phreddy get shelled but “they cant figure it out!”, i can tell them whats wrong, HE STINKS!!…Last year was a fluke, he’s a mop up guy and Phelps ISN’T.Phelps gets his start next time out to put the pressure on Phil.

  141. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    Rich,

    I think Betsy is saying that Phil’s development or lack there of is Phil’s responsability and not the organization’s he plays for. I don’t agree on this, because it is very hard to develop and at the same time having to perform.

  142. tomingeorgia April 28th, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    yankeefem,
    First of all, I’ve got to see if I’ve got a suit that’s not full of moth holes, and then remember how to knot a tie. Pics next Sunday AM, lots friendlier crowd then. Whatever, you’ll see Reverend Tom tie the knot with these fold.

  143. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    Rich, good synopsis of Phil’s journey and good reason for his slow development. Here’s hoping he stays healthy and they handle him correctly, giving him every chance to succeed.

    Luis, yes, agree that it would be easier for him to thrive in a less result-oriented environment.

  144. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    luis

    Yes, that’s right, but I think that view lacks context.

  145. MikeK April 28th, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    Rich,

    Does Hughes still have options? If so, I agree it’s best to send him to AAA and reconstruct him, so to speak. I just don’t have any faith in the Yankees actually doing this.

    If he’s not pushing off his legs like he used to, as Phil the Thrill has suggested, then why haven’t the Yankees pointed it out to him? And if they had, why hasn’t he made the adjustment?

  146. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 8:26 pm

    Tyler Austin is just destroyin’ it.

    That boy needs a promotion.

    ;)

  147. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:26 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:16 pm
    JAP,

    I wouldn’t say that he needs the pressure
    ///

    Luis, sorry. I meant finger pressure :D .
    =======================

    Ahh! Ok! :D

  148. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    MTU April 28th, 2012 at 8:26 pm
    Tyler Austin is just destroyin’ it.

    That boy needs a promotion.
    ///

    trade bait ;) /thinkingalongwithbriancashmanpitchingwinsmantra

  149. Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    Mike

    Yes, he does.

    Who knows?

  150. mick April 28th, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    And Joe pushes back the entire staff back a day for freddy?
    Why are the relying on him?
    He’s a 5th starter or mop up guy.
    You push CC back a day when you know it breaks his rhythm.
    There is just no rhyme or reason other than abject loyalty on the binders behalf.
    He has a habit of throwing away games.

  151. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    Rich, everything you said was true, no doubt, but even through all of that, I find it hard to excuse the total disappearance of a once very good curve and the total overreliance of the cutter. Now maybe he’s not getting great guidance by Larry Rothschild because if he sees it’s not working, he needs to tell Phil not to throw it. I just don’t necessarily see that Phil has the tools necessary to be a good starter because he hasn’t shown them in years. He threw the curve in the pen, but stopped I believe because it wasn’t very good. He loses feel for his pitches easily, unfortunatley

    I’m fine with sending him to the minors because his role in the pen would be as a long man only, but I can’t just assume that reworking Phil will be successful. Of course, it might work………but who knows? I don’t think the Yankees will go this route, though; I think they’ve just about lost patience

  152. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    Rich in NJ April 28th, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    luis

    Yes, that’s right, but I think that view lacks context.

    ===========================

    Agreed

  153. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    YF, but in the meantime the offense and bullpen are taking it on the chin. I don’t want them to be so worn out that by the time we truly decide on our #5, they’ve had the crap beat out of them.

    I’m counting on Andy to come back big. But I certainly don’t know whether he will or not.

    I don’t get easily frustrated. I can tell you that the last time I felt this antsy was in 2008, when they kept trotting out Kennedy and Hughes, and they kept losing game after game. They ended up with 10 losses between them in short order. We didn’t make the playoffs that year for the first time in forever. Those 10 losses loomed large at the end.

    I don’t want 2008 redux. I want swift action, certainly more swift than they took in 2008. I want to feel that someone is on top of things and understands that you need to shore up the starting ro and you don’t use it as a potential training ground when someone just isn’t working out.

  154. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    Luis, what I’m saying is that a player’s career (not just Phil, by the way) is on him, not on the organization. At some point, you have to decide that a player just isn’t that talented – it happens. All the credit for a player goes to a player and all the “blame” (not the greatest word for the situation, but you know what I mean) has to go to him as well.

  155. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 8:27 pm

    MTU April 28th, 2012 at 8:26 pm
    Tyler Austin is just destroyin’ it.

    That boy needs a promotion.
    ///

    trade bait ;) /thinkingalongwithbriancashmanpitchingwinsmantra

    ==========================

    Yes, MTU we have to keep the good one under the radar or they will get traded for another pitcher or BUC. ;)

  156. comet April 28th, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    The Yankees can’t give Garcia another start until they find out what is wrong with him. So either they continue to do the same thing as in start Garcia and wonder why the results aren’t there, OR they trade for a SP, call up a SP, or give Phelps a shot. I hope they give Phelps a shot.

    Luis and Trish and Reverend Tom good to see you here.

    Later.

  157. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    JAP-

    That kid pretty much came out of Nowhere didn’t he ?

    Wasn’t even on the radar screen.

    He’s rising fast.

    I hope he keeps it up.

  158. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    Mike, if Phil is sent down to the minors, he has to go all the way down – AAA won’t cut it. They would need to have him spend all his time with, I suppose, Nardi Contreras……….it would be a long process.

  159. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Trisha, in 2008 we were breaking in young pitchers. In this case, we have 4 vet starters fronted by CC. The 3 and 4 are seasoned vets. We should have at least two pitchers who will eat 200 innings. Only injuries would derail us, and we do still have depth with Phelps and DJ. #5 pitcher whoever that may be with do fine.

  160. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Hughes just needs to work on his curveball; his fastball command should return and his changeup is coming along. I don’t see it as some kind of deprogramming process. He just needs one year of both health and velo. Once he has the curve down, he can worry about a 4th pitch.

  161. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    “Trish, Kuroda HAS to be more consistent – even if he’s just consistently average. I’ve never seen a bullpen worked to death like it was early in 2009, but this is coming darn close – if it hasn’t surpassed it.”

    Betsy, do you remember the forum going nuts and annointing him the number two starter when the trade was made? A little shortsighted I would say. In the very least they should have expected some kind of of adjustment period, but no he was going to swoop in and take over where he left off in the NL. That’s just nuts. As we’ve seen.

    The best we can hope for is that when he finally has his sealegs under him, he does a credible job and keeps the Yankees in the running. But as you said, what happens to the bullpen in the meantime – and the offense – is not pretty. And of course if Kuroda was the only inconsistent pitcher, we could deal with it. But with 2 out of the 5 just blowing apart and Kuroda being inconsistent, it’s a recipe for disaster.

  162. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    MTU,

    Never seen him play, but the results are there.

    Luis – LOL “BUC”.

  163. jmv April 28th, 2012 at 8:37 pm

    “That kid pretty much came out of Nowhere didn’t he ?”

    ————————————————————————–

    The best a prospect can do in the Yankee system

  164. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 8:37 pm

    JAP-

    GB was big on him from early on.

  165. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:38 pm

    Betsy, how do you know what the Yankees are advising Phil to do or not do with his pitches? See, AJ. See many pitchers. What is your source for saying it is all on Phil? He needs to take care of his health and work on pitches but do you really believe it is all on him? Then why have a pitching coach and coaches generally…

  166. mick April 28th, 2012 at 8:38 pm

    If they dont have the chutzpah to jerk Freddy from the rotation, they can pull that old Kitchen Knife aciident trick out of their bag of tricks.

    When is Andy’s next start?

    You give Phelps a start and put Freddy in the pen where he will wind up. This will wake Phil up who also appears to be done.

    If we have to go with him in the ALDS again, we are done.

  167. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:39 pm

    Trish, I had no problem with that at all, frankly. I’m sure Kuroda will be fine…….I’ll deal with the worst problems first, though, lol

  168. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    Betsy,

    I do understand your position. But when you add in to the equation what the kid has gone through and what has been required for him to do, it is very hard not to put some responsibility on the organization. He was not responsible for being called up too soon. He was not responsible for being put in the pen, which led to the abandonment of his CB and CU. He was not responsible for being given a spot in the rotation, even though he hadn’t had the innings in three seasons, and in doing so setting the likely scenario of another injury. Even though i would agree with you, that some of the blame is on him, he wasn’t handled well.

  169. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 8:40 pm

    jmv-

    Tell your wife I said NOT to scrimp on the lens.

    What good is a car with a big engine if it does have an equally good tranny to make use of all that power.

    Hand-in-glove amigo.

    ;)

  170. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:42 pm

    Yankeesfem, that’s just how I feel. Yes, IMO, how a player’s career turns out is on the player and his ability or lackthereof. I don’t care if Albert Einstein would arise from the grave and try to teach me quantum physics – I’m not going to get it because it’s above my head. Phil (or any player) might have the greatest coaches in the world, but it’s up to the player to execute; no one can do it for them. You can not teach talent – you either have it or you don’t.

  171. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:42 pm

    mick, Andy’s pitching Monday likely. Then I am guessing one more rehab start and starting at end of TB series, beginning of Mariners series. We were targeting May 10th, or so we said.

  172. jmv April 28th, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    MTU,

    Sure I will! Any advice on how to convince a wife of anything? LOL

  173. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    Luis, the only thing I will agree with is that the Yankees chose to put Phil in the pen in 2009 and thereby chose the present over the future. There was always going to be real issues with that decision – not just the future innings issue in 2011, but also issues regarding secondary pitches. That said, Phil has said before that being in the pen made him more aggressive with his FB, something he chalked his first half 2010 success to. So, it wasn’t all bad.

  174. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    Betsy, how about teaching technique or picking up some mechanical problem that is affecting command? Is that on Phil? Or any other pitcher? What about when Martin keeps calling cutters and then says he shouldn’t have called those cutters in said situations? All I am saying is being a pitcher is complex and there are many variables that go into executing pitches. Yes, you have to have talent but also guidance. So, I can’t agree about Phil or any pitcher that it is all on that pitcher.

  175. jmv April 28th, 2012 at 8:45 pm

    “yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:42 pm
    mick, Andy’s pitching Monday likely. Then I am guessing one more rehab start and starting at end of TB series, beginning of Mariners series. We were targeting May 10th, or so we said.”

    ———————————————————————————————–

    It’s like waiting for a new season…

  176. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    Hi Comet! good to see you around too.

    Well guys, time for to turn in. It’s 2:45 am, and i am supposed to take a flight tomorrow. So good night everyone!! good posts. We will get them tomorrow.

  177. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    Phil Hughes has no talent, Kuroda isn’t good.

    May is say, this is one of the more astute pitching seminars in here.

  178. J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    Luis, have a safe flight buddy :D

  179. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    Again, if they want to rebuild Phil completely, they should discuss this with him and find out whether he would be willing to re-sign with them before hitting FA. If not, then he’ll go out on the open market and take his chances… but if he wants to start, he’s going to very likely have to go through this process with some team, so why not the Yankees?

  180. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    And yes, the pen put him in a position of perhaps losing the feel on his curveball and retarding his changeup. Just as Phelps complained recently that by coming out of the pen, he doesn’t get to use all his pitches as he normally would as a SP, but Phelps at least already has developed secondary pitches from 500+ innings of miL development time.

  181. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:48 pm

    Betsy, the Yankees might not leave it up to Phil, probably won’t. They’ll just stick him in the pen if there is a need, and waste him just like they did Joba.

  182. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:48 pm

    Buenas noches, luis, and a safe flight.

  183. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 8:48 pm

    YF in 2008 we had three vets fronting the rotation, Hughes had been up the year before and had started 13 games for the Ys, and Kennedy was the only newbie being broken in.

    It doesn’t matter that we have four vet starters fronted by CC. If they’re not getting the job done, they’re not getting the job done. Losses are losses, and they’re piling up. And the offense and bullpen are paying. I’ve seen that story before. It doesn’t play well in the postseason.

    The configuration doesn’t matter. If the results aren’t there, something needs to be done.

    I said once before that it takes an act of congress for me to lose patience so when it starts to happen, I pay attention to it. It makes me believe I’m on to something.

    The Yankees need to make some fast moves. I hope they do it. And if those moves don’t work, they need to be prepared to think of some others. That’s if they hope to win anything this season.

  184. yankeefeminista April 28th, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    jmv, yes, very excited to have Andy back with us. :)

  185. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    Yankeesfem, I look at Martin as trying to cover for his pitcher; what’s he going to say?

    Of course pitchers need guidance, but still in the end, it’s on them to be successful…….or not. What about all the other pitchers in MLB history who have failed? Whose fault was it?

  186. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:49 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock April 28th, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    Luis, have a safe flight buddy :D

    =========================

    Take care my friend and thank you!! :)

  187. luis April 28th, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    Gracias YF, cuidate mucho!!

  188. Betsy April 28th, 2012 at 8:51 pm

    Yankeesfem, yes I think they will put him in the pen. I’m fine with anything they do at this point. If they want to try and rebuild him, great – if not, it’s fine as well.

  189. jmv April 28th, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Nite, Luis! Safe flight

  190. MTU April 28th, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    proximo hilo ——->

  191. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    One of the biggest criticisms I’ve received on this forum is that I’m too patient, that nothing bothers me, that I don’t get upset enough when the Yankees lose. It certainly hasn’t been that I’m a knee jerker or a whiner or that I am on players like a cheap suit.

    I’m bothered by what I am seeing with the rotation and I am bothered feeling that there is no Plan B in place.

    That won’t change until I see some action from the organization and see what the action is and what the results are.

    Too loosey goosey right now for my tastes.

    I’m very forgiving of offense that is struggling, because I know a quality rotation can make up for that. The opposite is disastrous.

  192. mick April 28th, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    The Yankees need to make some fast moves.
    =============================
    Andy will be up and Freddy will go somewhere.
    Phil is not long for the staff, Phelps has earned his spot.
    He does not belong in the pen. He is the perfect 5th starter where he can develop.
    It seems so obvious, it’s just a matter of time.

  193. jmv April 28th, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    I really need to look at Joe’s face when he’s asked aboput Phelps as numero cinco

  194. trisha - true pinstriped blue April 28th, 2012 at 8:56 pm

    “Andy will be up and Freddy will go somewhere.
    Phil is not long for the staff, Phelps has earned his spot.
    He does not belong in the pen. He is the perfect 5th starter where he can develop.
    It seems so obvious, it’s just a matter of time.”

    mick, I hope it happens in short order. Andy is nowhere ready to start. He himself has said that. Cashman said he’s going to give him all the time he needs. So we need some stopgap things in the meantime. It will be an interesting watch.

  195. tomingeorgia April 28th, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    comet,
    I don’t know if there are any real reverends on here, but if you need a rite performed, for cheap, I’m your man!

  196. mick April 28th, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Andy is one or two starts away from being back.

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