The difficulty of replacing Brett Gardner
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jul 20, 2012 
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Nothing about the Yankees roster changed yesterday — they’ve been without Brett Gardner since mid-April — the only thing that changed was the hope that Gardner might return.
“I always make the assumption, you just manage the guys you have in the room anyway,” Joe Girardi said. “You can’t say, ‘If we get this or we get that.’ We’re going to get it cleaned up. Let’s get him healthy and get him back on the track where he can help us next year.”
With Gardner heading for season-ending surgery, the Yankees could look to replace him, but there’s no real indication that they’re going to be particularly aggressive in trying to fill a spot that’s been open most of the season.
Solid production as it is
The most obvious reason that the Yankees don’t necessarily have to replace Gardner is the only reason that really matters: They have the best record in baseball. Sure, the lineup has gone through dips when a run creator like Gardner would be helpful, but how much better would their record be if they had Gardner? I’m one of the biggest Gardner believers out there — I’m pretty far away from the camp that believes he’s an overhyped fourth outfielder — but the Yankees are clearly able to win without him, and if that’s the case, why go overboard to replace him? Andruw Jones and Raul Ibanez are far from complete players, but they’ve hit for power, just like the Yankees expected. In this lineup, the left fielder is a complimentary piece anyway, and the Yankees already have that.
Still something left
A left-handed-hitting outfielder is hurt, so it makes sense to replace him with a left-handed-hitting outfielder. Right? Maybe not in the Yankees case, partially because Eric Chavez has been playing so well — keeping Ibanez in the field frees Chavez to play everyday against right-handers — and partially because the Yankees have plenty of left-handed, outfield role players. Dewayne Wise is already in New York, and the Triple-A outfield has Chris Dickerson, Kosuke Fukudome and Jack Cust (not to mention Russell Branyan if the Yankees wanted to give him regular DH at-bats). That might explain why Jon Heyman reports that the Yankees have no interest in Juan Pierre or Rick Ankiel, two left-handed outfielders who would seem to be quality role players.
The system works
Remember when the Yankees were in spring training and Girardi explained that Eduardo Nunez would be a regular starter against left-handers? He indicated that either Alex Rodriguez or Derek Jeter would regularly DH vs. LHP, meaning Jones would be in left field and Gardner would be on the bench. If the Yankees planned for Gardner to be a part-time player from the beginning, then the plan is still working. His absense has basically allowed Chavez to play more often — which has been a good thing — at the expense of some outfield defense. Instead of Nunez resting Jeter or Rodriguez against left-handers, Chavez has rested Rodriguez against righties and Jayson Nix has rested Jeter against lefties. It’s not a completely new lineup construction. It’s just a slightly altered version of the orginal plan.
What’s the alternative?
At the end of the All-Star break, Brian Cashman acknowledged that this is an awkward roster to upgrade. “You’d have to put the pedal to the metal to overpay or significantly pay to find something that everybody says, ‘This just significantly upgraded this aspect of the club,’” Cashman said. That’s still true after news of Gardner’s upcoming surgery. The Yankees still have a pretty good thing happening in their outfield, and a role player or platoon player wouldn’t necessarily help that situation. Shane Victorino is one of my favorite guys I’ve ever covered — I’d love to see him show up in the Yankees clubhouse — but he’s not having a very good year, and what exactly would his role be? Would Peter Bourjos or Denard Span play everyday for this team? Is Josh Willingham, Carlos Quinton or Justin Upton worth the prospect cost considering it isn’t an overwhelming need in the short-term? Clearly the Yankees could upgrade with an acquisition, but the bigger the upgrade, the greater the cost.
Associated Press photo
I think they should just sit tight. As long as we have a solid late inning defensive replacement ( Wise or Dickerson ), there is no need to give up the farm.
Everytime Joe laments that the speed element is missing I want to yell at him that his speed is raking in the minors, just waiting for a call-up. I am obviously talking about Dickerson, and while he couldn’t do any more at the plate right now than Wise has, he would certainly add the missing speed.
mick July 20th, 2012 at 12:20 pm
again…they will not be able to buy low on upton.
if they gave him away, i’d take him…
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Well, if the report Heyman just gave is correct and they asked Boston for Ellsbury and Bard – I don’t see that as an indication that they’re willing to sell low.
If they asked Boston for Ellsbury and Bard and Boston turned it down they are idiots. I make that trade twice a day and three times on sunday.
Being able to acquire Upton at all is buying low on him. Players of his talent level are just not traded that often. This is a unique situation where ownership wants to move him, and the GM is just trying to get the best deal possible.
Is anyone surprised Gardner ended up needing surgery?
Imagine if the Angels or Texas managed to acquire Upton and Hamels to make a push this year? I’d be able to float down the river of LoHud tears.
Ellsbury comes with a whole bunch of injury risk and Bard… is he even working as the Sox closer? That’s like us giving up Robertson and Gardner for Upton.
“trish–listen to his pre and post game remarks…he talked around it but he mentioned the word “start” in both of them, glossed over them but he knows what he’s got.
this kid looked so good that nova and hughes better watch out come playoff time.”
mick, I only heard postgame. I didn’t think Phelps was being brought up as a starter so I’m not surprised if Freddy goes again on Tuesday. But neither will it surprise me if Joe thinks about it in the meantime and comes up with another game plan. Life is fluid and the game is fluid.
My only caution would be that if Phelps shows himself to be human, some people will once again become the victims of their own expectations. He looks great, no question. If he sustains that over the long haul (he’ll definitely get the chance to show his stuff as a starter), then that’s a good thing. It’s unfortunate that people can’t just let things unfold without having to overlay their own expectations on situations – and then somehow turn against the player if things go awry.
Not like that hasn’t happened here many times.
“I think they should just sit tight. As long as we have a solid late inning defensive replacement ( Wise or Dickerson ), there is no need to give up the farm.”
I would agree with that. I’m thinking their course of action will depend on whether Girardi feels that the guys at hand can sustain it over the rest of the season and into the postseason. If he thinks they can, I’m betting that they don’t make a move.
shame, gardner is not even in ellsbury’s league in terms of how rest the baseball see them, I think.
mick July 20th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
yanks might be buying low but they would pay dearly
would you include phelps in that deal?
—————–
Phelps has undoubtedly showed promise, but he’s the flavor of the moment. If the Yankees can flip an unproven pitcher (who has never projected to be this good…) for a reliable, proven player, yes. You have to.
Phelps might be really good right now, but remember, he was compared to a poor man’s IPK, who was a poor man’s Mussina. I’ll still stick with that summary.
Jerkface July 20th, 2012 at 12:24 pm
If they asked Boston for Ellsbury and Bard and Boston turned it down they are idiots. I make that trade twice a day and three times on sunday.
Being able to acquire Upton at all is buying low on him. Players of his talent level are just not traded that often. This is a unique situation where ownership wants to move him, and the GM is just trying to get the best deal possible.
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I tend to agree.
luis July 20th, 2012 at 12:32 pm
Kev,
Good point…I just don’t view Granderson as part of the core of the team, but a very good complimentary piece…I would say that even though at some point this was Arod’s team, I never viewed him as an integral part of the core…And I love Arod
RadioKev July 20th, 2012 at 12:32 pm
mick July 20th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
yanks might be buying low but they would pay dearly
would you include phelps in that deal?
—————–
Phelps has undoubtedly showed promise, but he’s the flavor of the moment. If the Yankees can flip an unproven pitcher (who has never projected to be this good…) for a reliable, proven player, yes. You have to.
Phelps might be really good right now, but remember, he was compared to a poor man’s IPK, who was a poor man’s Mussina. I’ll still stick with that summary.
——————–
David Phelps is a back of the rotation starter – he’s not the center of any trade nor is he someone who is going to hold up a trade – he’s Hector Noesi. And that’s coming from someone who likes Phelps.
The New York Yankees are not getting Justin Upton who is 24, signed long term and very very very good – for Phil Hughes and David Phelps…it’s not happening at all.
Cashmoney July 20th, 2012 at 12:30 pm
shame, gardner is not even in ellsbury’s league in terms of how rest the baseball see them, I think.
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Ellsbury’s upside is much, MUCH higher than Gardner’s, no doubt…. but Ellsbury has lost a lot of playing time to injury. I wouldn’t be so sure I’d get 140-150 games out of him next season. Of course, he’s coming up on a contract year so I’d like to think he would be posting 2010-esque numbers. I still wouldnt take a year (or two, with arb control) of Ellsbury and a jerked around closer for a few years of controlling Upton.
never been an arod fan…I was happy when he opted out, we know the rest.
I get what you saying shame, I was just saying I can see Ellsbury and bard getting it done for boston, but i dont see gardner and robertson getting it done as pieces for Dback. simply cuz other ppl view ellsbury much higher of value than Gardner.
Travelbug,
Dickerson is absolutely no faster than Wise is. Wise would easily beat Dickerson in a race. So why would they replace Dickerson with Wise on the grounds of they need more speed?
Jeremy Guthrie dealt for Jonathan Sanchez…blech.
Cash – Agreed.. I’m just trying to figure out how the Sox could get a deal like that from Zona. That’s got to be wishful thinking on the part of Sox-happy journalists because there’s no way those two are enough for Upton. And if they are, there’s no reason we should have to gut the farm to get him. For a reliever to be the second major piece in that deal….. I just can’t see that being legit. I think Robertson is a lot better than Bard. I love Robertson but if Towers was like, “We’ll take Williams/Austin, Gardner, Robertson, and Betances for Upton I’d probably do that deal. They get two MLB players (albeit an injured one but I’m basing this on the interest in Ellsbury), two prospects and we get to keep our rotation in tact.
I do that deal if I was Boston btw, Crazy Larry was barking about doing something big in his weekly state of redsux nation as I was reading the other day…
If Boston was offered that deal and didn’t do it they should be sailed out into the ocean on a boat and then sunk with a giant rock.
well shame, I think err… potentials… bard has the potential to be a lights out closer, Ellsbury, a prennial all star with similar toolset to J.Upton. so … i can realistically see Dback asking for that in return.
I’d wait to sign a free agent outfielder,instead of giving up 3-4 high end player/prospects for upton.
Just to much to give up.
Of course i’d love to have upton,but in 3 short years,he either is not that good,he leaves for fa,or he becomes very expensive.
Tex,and cc will only have a year left,arod 2 years,jeter,mo will be gone.
It is almost impossible to win in a trade.
I know about uptons upside,but ibanez is putting up better numbers as a pt player.
Ellsbury,and bard does not get you upton.
Cash – Do you really believe Bard has greater potential as a closer than Robertson? I know Bard’s at least had the opportunity in more instances… Maybe I’m blinded by my love for Robertson.
ron July 20th, 2012 at 12:54 pm
Ellsbury,and bard does not get you upton.
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okay, ron.
And Cash – The only other issue is really that they’d be getting Ellsbury for one year, then he goes to arb, then he can be an FA. It’s 2 years of control for a guy that’s locked up for I think 4 more years.
….Who came up with this rumor again lol?? We’re probably splitting hairs over something completely unfounded.
Cash – Do you really believe Bard has greater potential as a closer than Robertson?
——-
honestly i dont know. they both pretty good eigs… robertson been better. But Bard is bigger, trhows harder and prolly sturdier. I say both be pretty good closer if healthy down the line. the dif is marginal imo. But prolly Robertson I guess.
The Jays and Stro’s just completed an 8 player swap.
Mostly Minor leaguers but a few ML players were involved including
Ben Francisco who went from the Jays to the Stro’s.
A few blips staring to appear on the radar.
A sign of things to come.
Robertson > Bard
Ellsbury is a FA after next year so its not like Arizona is building around him.
if they get paul, lin will be an afterthought…
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They have no way of getting Paul.
I can see the yankees going after an outfielder where they won’t have to give up any high end prospects.
Someone like victorino.
Maybe they sit still,and use wise,dickerson,mesa,etc…
sp: starting. sorry.
Jerkface July 20th, 2012 at 1:00 pm
Robertson > Bard
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I love how justice has been served. Bard now lives in Robertson’s shadow.
Sorry, I must have missed this, but where is this Ellsbury+Bard for Upton Congo coming from?
*convo* not Congo!!
LOL
Difficult to replace Gardner’s defense, other than that IMO he is a marginal player. Lifetime BA 265 and 125 Rbi’s over 5 years certainly not an offensive machine and struck out over 100 times in 2010. I feel the yanks can get by with what they have and would be foolish to trade for someone like Victorino etc. Jones , Ibanez and Wise can get the job done and put up better offense than Gardner.
The Yankees have the best record in baseball.
I doubt they feel any pressure to do anything.
Now if something happens to drop into their lap…….. That’s another story.
john heyman, lgy.
Chad,
Very good piece by the way…I just read it…You make a lot of sense…Kudos
A fully healed elbow is worth its weight in gold, but getting to that point of health is a challenge most don’t expect. Brett just learned that lesson. Unfortunately his elbow barks when he swings the bat. Recurrence of injury will be the biggest risk and may end his career. Not good.
Two winters ago, one of the trades the Diamondbacks considered was with the Red Sox for Jacoby Ellsbury and Daniel Bard.
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Glad we discussed a theoretical trade from 2 years ago from noted idiot Jon Heyman
You can trade for an outfielder,or use wise,dicherson,cust,branyon,etc…,to get enough production,instead of giving up 3-4 top players/prospects for upton.
It is almost impossible to fleece another gm,as they are looking to get a better deal than you are.
Leave what is working alone.
Also,gardners offense is not hard to replace.
It is his d,and speed that will be missed.
“Is Josh Willingham, Carlos Quinton? or Justin Upton worth the prospect cost considering it isn?t an overwhelming need in the short-term?”
something doesn’t have to be an overwhelming need to do it….especially if it solves long term problems at the same time it makes the current team even better than it is.
Justin Upton is one of the 5 most talented players in the game today…..he might have the most pure bat speed in baseball.
Jon Heyman ?@JonHeymanCBS
#brewers did offer Zack Greinke $100M PLUS (maybe even $112.5M). but signs say hell be free agent. http://cbsprt.co/PqY3YD
Upton is fantasy IMHO.
Towers would want Nova + Sanchez/Williams + Betances + Nunez
According to Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe, last season it was rumored that D-Backs GM Kevin Towers was willing to deal Upton to Boston if he got a package similar to what San Diego received in the Adrian Gonzalez trade, or if he could get Clay Buchholz in return.
According to Nick Piecoro of AZCentral.com, there were also rumors later in the year that Arizona wanted a package involving Ellsbury and Daniel Bard in exchange for Upton.
Ditto JF
“Towers would want Nova + Sanchez/Williams + Betances + Nunez”
probably….if you put Hughes in and Williams instead of Sanchez I’d think about it…..I’d deal Nova for him but it would have to be close to straight up.
The deal doesn’t work without Nova IMHO. You could maybe swipe out Sanchez/Williams and put in Austin.
http://riveraveblues.com/
Axisa’s new top 30 Yankee prospects post draft. I can’t argue with it much based on what I know…
“The deal doesn?t work without Nova IMHO. You could maybe swipe out Sanchez/Williams and put in Austin.”
It depends on how Towers evaluated the players…..Nova is more controllable but it’s possible he would see Hughes as a better pitcher with more upside….and maybe he’d care more about that. Hard to say….I wouldn’t want to deal Nova because he’s cheap and also because I like him….but Hughes is starting to look more like what we all thought he’d be….he’s not a #1….but a work horse 2 or 3 is within reach and that’s extremely valuable.
Towers would have to be the dumbest GM in the league to value one year of a two pitch pitcher over 5 years of a pitcher with a bag full of tricks. The second piece (Austin) isn’t close enough to the majors to throw Towers off Nova and onto Hughes either IMHO.
The Yankees can afford to stand still at the trading deadline unless:
Ibanez has the month offensively he had in June again for the rest of the year. He picked it back up in July.
One of the starters between now and when Pettitte returns developes that “tired arm” syndrome, forcing extra work on the patchwork, surprisingly good bullpen.
One of the position players gets injured and we have to rely on players in AAA.
One or both of the Angels and Rangers, two very good teams add a significant piece now.
I don’t believe in keeping up with the Joneses, but with Gardner’s season ending surgery, I believe it wise to find an outfielder who can play all 3 positions, hit righty, have some speed. If the price is right-Shane Victorino can do all that.
If you feel the need for a super utility type to provide more insurance and a better bat than Nix, then consider Omar Infante.
Just don’t stand pat and rest on your laurels. This team is one or two more key injuries from falling back in the heat of the summer.
Just my 2 cents.
is Manban coming back at all this year? it’s like the case of Romine, you hear about the vagaries of an injury, next thing u know, they out for the year.
Good post Trader…I agree completely with it…
Since Cashman values his prospects so highly, I agree that Victorino would be a good choice. He shouldn’t cost too much and adds a lot of speed. And much better than Jones/Ibanez in the field.
DeJesus is having a better season than Victorino, would cost less in terms of prospects than Victorino and provides insurance if Swisher leaves or if Gardner’s not healthy next year.
He’s my pick.
If you couldn’t tell.
Towers wants a major league ready 3rd baseman, or now, if they dump the other player the owner maligned, Stephen Drew, they want a SS foremost.
Danie Hudson out. JJ Putz not getting the job done as closer. Also who steps in and replace Upton-it won’t be Gerardo Parra who can’t hit lefties.
The Yankees are just not a match if major league ready position players are Towers main need in return for Upton.
Look for a 3rd team to get involved that has the position players, while the Yankees provide the pitchers.
But when Towers insists on cost controlled Nova don’t be surprised if Cashman is forced to walk away.
The Playoffs are an entirely different Animal than the regular season. NOT replacing Gardner, based on the Yankee regular season record, is a road map to Exactly where last season ended. FAILURE in Rd 1.
The Yankees will need a stolen base in the late innings at some point during the playoffs (ala Dave Roberts)…who will do that? I think Victorino might be the best option at this point.
Chip
DeJesus is a lefty who is hitting lefties way below the Mendoza Line-.132. He doesn’t offer much more than Wise if you compare their current stats and Wise, unlike DeJesus can steal bases unlike DeJesus who was 2 for 7 as of the 15th per my USA Today Sports Weekly,
Find me a righty bat who can play all 3 positions. Jones can’t do that.
Yanks will miss the boat on buying Upton low just like they missed out on Haren. And in both cases, the same rationale exists: they were “the best team in baseball” who didn’t “need” those players, so unless they could rob the other team, it was not worth it.
As July 31 gets closer, and the DBacks continue to Tank, And the owner continues to Order Towers to, “Dump Upton”, the price will drop, and drop, and drop.
But would Towers want to pay Hughes when his contract is up? Once they trade Upton, they probably don’t have realistic visions of contending this year anyway, so having Hughes for this year isnt a real benefit, aside from personally evaluating him. So really, it is only for next year. I’d imagine for Upton, they’d want a long-term guy to slot into their rotation cheaply.
wasn’t aware there is an ultimatum to trade J UP at DT.
Chip-
Thru the 15th of July, Shane Victorino was hitting .305 vs lefties, stolen 19 out of 21 tries, had 7 assissts and 0 errors[JF-I know that means nothing if he just doesn't cover the ground].
Granderson vs lefties .257; Wise .125; Swisher .241; Jones .242, Ibanez .194; Nix .238.
Anyway Amaro needs to unload Victorino to free up more dollars to retain Hamels.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it-for now!
how come no one ever thought about Nunez as option in LF? I thought if the yanks had just kept Nunez in LF, SS and 2b, he would have been fine.
So where would the Yanks bat Victorino??? Grandy has the 2 Hole, and Jeet Owns leadoff. You can put a stick like Upton anywhere in the Yankee order.Part of the Philly Failure is due to players playing that shouldn’t be playing, and guys batting, (Victorino) where they shouldn’t be batting. Take heed.
With the kind of lead the Yankees have in the division right now, I don’t foresee them doing anything dramatic. Even Victorino sounds too sexy for them unless his cost in trade is minimal.
While I don’t agree with that approach and think teams should always try to get better, I also don’t see who on the 25 man roster is wasting a spot right now.
Nix is a big part of this club and you can’t get rid of our only UTIF for an OF.
Wise is also handling his role very well. Could you upgrade him? Absolutely, but I honestly think after the Pineda debacle Cashman is going to be terrified to do anything big where he could be 2nd guessed.
Anything he does will be for the smallest cost in players you can imagine. I even think if he does anything, it will be for players to be named later or guys who are clearly no longer in the Yankees possible plans system wise.
This team is winning a lot. You don’t want to mess up chemistry unless someone else goes down and gets injured.
As it stands, while the LF platoon of Ibanez/Jones isn’t exactly the most athletic, it’s providing offense and in some cases game changing offense. Those 2 players don’t seem to hit meaningless HR’s when they go yard.
I think the trade deadline will be a snoozer for the Yankees and I think they won’t even dare chase Upton because of the cost.
I’m not sure what the plan is long term to find replacements for Swisher and potentially Gardner who you no longer can rely on as a projected starter with his injury history. Bret gets hurt every season without fail. It’s not his fault. It’s just his body isn’t responding well to the all out style play he needs to be a major leaguer.
At this point, Gardner’s a wild card at best. You have no idea if he’ll make it through a month of starting.
The Yankees should find 2 corner OF’ers next season. They just aren’t going to worry about that right now.
Cash-
I mentioned that it would help to have Nunez also play some left field, to turn him into a capable super utility type. The Yankees felt his value was as backup mainly at SS and 3rd. It doesn’t matter now, as Nunez was injured almost immediately and didn’t return until 4 days ago.
YT, yanks got still got ample time to put Nunez in LF before the playoff… you dont have to give up a thing and a guy you acquire will have speed , some pop and can hit lefty.
There is no difficulty replacing Brett Gardner. From a practical point of view he does not exist. He has never been there, and while he is not altogether untalented, it turns out to be a big yawn.
G Love-
Good points. This trade was mentioned a few days ago, and some thought it was too much to give up for Victorino who is having a bad year, average wise, in his walk year. If you were the GM would you give up Warren and Adams for 2.5 months of Victorino?
And I agree there is no wasted space on the 25 man roster-well Chad Qualls being the exception.
If Omar Infante were available for the same two players would you trade for his right handed bat, playoff experience, and ability to play every OF and IF position, some better than others, and put Nix thru waivers, unless he has options. I like Nix but if the Yankees could get Infante do you pull the trigger?
The Yankees tried to make Nunez a super utility guy & ended up demoting him to focus on just being a SS.
He will not be our LF. If he’s proven anything, defense at the major league level can overwhelm him. Making him play out of position set him back developmentally.
Yankee Trader,
We all know Qualls is just keeping the seat warm for Joba. He’ll be gone shortly.
Warren & Adams for Victorino sounds like something Cashman would do right now if it was available.
They’re both blocked by better players and don’t appear to be can’t miss types.
I think those are the kind of names Cashman will deal without 2nd thought. I don’t think he’ll deal anyone with truly high upside though. He has to cut costs in the future and in order to do that he’s going to need to keep as many of those guys as he can and hope a couple pan out.
There is one right handed bat in AAA in Ronier Mustelier, who when I last checked hasn’t been hitting all that well lately. I don’t know if he’s been playing mostly a corner OF spot now, or back at 2nd.
GLove-
OK. If the price comes to that for Victorino we can agree that the Yankees should do the deal. It might take another week for that price to drop.
Have to go. Have a great day everyone. Until later.
I’d be fine with Victorino if the price is right and there is no way they can get Upton.
I would hold onto Adams until the Cano negotiations are wrapped up. Once he is a Yankee long term, then I let him go.
I think Adams has a legitimate stick and all indications are he can field the position well. The challenge for him is to stay healthy and rack up the ABs.
Warren I would suspect has limited trade value but I wouldn’t hesitate to move him for a Victorino. I might offer Warren and Schaefer Hall or DJ Mitchell, PHIL Choice.
“Hunter Pence is attracting as much interest as anyone on the Phillies, including Hamels. However, the Phillies have downplayed their interest in trading the right fielder.”
from Stark on MLBTR
I’d give a little bit for Pence….he’s pretty good and he’s controlled through next year. I don’t know what they’d want for him though….
Also, forget Upton, IMO despite the bat speed, he is over-rated and ARI will demand the moon for him. Very curious why ARI is trying to move him. Typically with guys having the skill sets he allegedly has with a very reasonable salary are guys you build around not be public about trading. Something going on there.
if the Yanks can think out of the box on this one, they will realize Nunez is better option than the lights of Vic and Dejesus. G. love I see no development issue with Nunez except he could benefit playing everyday somewhere. with Jeter entrench til at least 14, Nunez can boost his own value by playing in the of in which i think his athleticism are more than apt to handle. His D problem stems mostly from his poor footworks on the infield, he actually looks pretty good the few times he was in the OF.
IMHO, the outfield defense needs to get better for the playoffs. Nunez in LF is not the answer. Victorino would be a defensive upgrade and gives the team some of the speed lacking with Gardner out. He’s a switch hitter which gives you options if he’s coming off the bench but personally I’d bat Victorino 9th and let him start in LF. Raul and Andrew share the DH spot and minimize any defensive liabilities in the outfield. Chavez plays a bit less but then the bench gets deeper.
Nunez in LF is not the answer
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Nunez needs a few weeks to get accustomed to playing LF. He has the arm and speed to be more than adequate LF.
You can part with a warren,and a few other not so big prospects for a victorino,but i’m not giving any high end prospects for upton,and his 7 hr/35 rbi when ibanez is putting up better numbers in 100 or so less ab.
I know upton has a ton of upside,but we have to hang onto our cost controlled good prospects,and build a nice core while drafting smarter.
We are never going to get great draft picks.The commisioner is to bent on making every team equal,and knocking the yankees off the top of the mountain.
We have to make our draft picks count,and i think we are doing well in that area by taking the best player available,instead of by positions,etc…
We can still compete almost as well with the 189,we just have to be smarter.
“Also, forget Upton, IMO despite the bat speed, he is over-rated and ARI will demand the moon for him. Very curious why ARI is trying to move him. Typically with guys having the skill sets he allegedly has with a very reasonable salary are guys you build around not be public about trading. Something going on there.”
I think ownership has soured on him and Towers is trying to turn 1 chip that is about to get expensive in to 3 or 4 pieces…..his contract is affordable….but it’s not cheap especially starting next year. Maybe Towers thinks that trading him now could result in a net positive going forward…..
Sounds like the Dempster deal could go down soon….lots of tweeting about him today.
Ibanez does NOT play RF. A big part of a possible Upton deal, would be replacing Swish in RF in 2013. Focusing on merely numbers, will give you short-sightedness.
The AAV of Upton’s contract is NOT expensive.
Just because the Yankees are cranking without Gardner doesn’t mean they dont miss him.
They can still win without him, but the OF will need to be addressed inthe OF. I don’t see Swisher, mainly because they want to address the payroll issue.
Of course, you could trade for Upton. Assuming you can land him. But his contract is back-loaded and might want an extension (to which I say no thanks until issues-shoulder, good fit?, can he play in NY?are resolved) to waive his NTC.
Another option is a Torii Hunter type or a non-tendered player at the end of the season.
But Gardner can’t be dismissed because if our record. His speed, patience, and defense would be welcome, no matter how we’re doing.
Victorino is ops’ing .616 against righties.
This is why cashman said the cost is not worth maybe little to no upgrade at all.
No way am i giving up much for victorino,and his 8 hr/38 rbi,when he is ops’ing .616 against rh pitching,wich he will face 2/3 of the time.
That’s offseason. Not OF.
upton again, eh…
i think he’d take at least one of hughes/nova and i just don’t see the yankees messing with this team that much. but im open minded.
If it were so simple to morph Nunez into a starting capable LF, then why are the Yankees only having him play SS in the minors?
I think the answer is he doesn’t hit enough to be corner OF & they realized flip flopping the kid all over the field set him back.
They didn’t demote him and restrict him to SS because he was succeeding at this level.
The demoted him & restricted him to SS to have an actual backup to Jeter & also to build up his trade value again since the Super Utility role didn’t work out at all.
You guys latch onto some of the prospects & think it’s easy for them to just change positions and become starters. Nunez has some great tools. He’s fast, he barrels the ball up and has bat speed. Defensively he was a nightmare at any position they put him at, so they decided to put him back at the position he was most comfortable with in the hopes of salvaging his career.
If Nunez could do what Jayson Nix does defensively, he would be in the majors. He can’t.
Let the kid be a SS. Seeing what happened with Mo & having a solid backup in Soriano this season should make us all hope that our break glass in case of emergency SS is someone like Nunez (with a better glove) and not Ramiro Pena.
Yanks wanted a “jack of all trades” and turned Nunez into a “jack of NO trades”. Like Joba, this is ALL on them.
“The AAV of Upton’s contract is NOT expensive.”
no….but team’s like the Dbacks don’t care as much about AAV because they don’t pay luxury tax anyway…..they care more about the actual dollars paid out that season….and Upton starts making 15 million a year in 2014…..which is in fact a lot for a team with a 75 million dollar payroll.
Agreed. I’m looking at it from the Yankee side.
From the Yankees side he’s cheap because all they do care about is AAV and it would be around 12 million…..
Nunez can’t hit enough to play LF
The Upton deal comes down to whether you think the Yanks will deal a SP from the 5 Man. I believe Cashman would part with Hughes. Not Nova. Towers may want a 3B, but his owner just wants Upton outta there. THAT, is gonna make Towers get Whatever he can for Upton.
Nunez is the only near-term internal option for SS that can hit a lick. Bernier has an outstanding glove but no stick and Pena has a good glove but no stick.
NY needs to keep Nunez at SS at least until they find another option. If Jeter goes down, they will need Nunez. Best thing to do is play Nunez at SS everyday at AAA or AA as soon as he is healthy enough to do so. Glad he appears to be over his thumb injury.
I agree he does not hit enough to warrant playing a corner OF spot. He certainly hits enough profiling as a SS.
I would trade Nunez for Upton
blake July 20th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
http://riveraveblues.com/
Axisa’s new top 30 Yankee prospects post draft. I can’t argue with it much based on what I know…
____
Jose Ramirez is a big omission.
I would trade Nunez for Upton….
I would trade Nunez for Asdrubel Cabrera.
Jose Ramirez is a big omission.
———————-
agreed….he might be top 10
I would trade Nunez for Asdrubel Cabrera.
__________________________
So would I but the Indians wouldn’t
I would trade Nunez or Phelps for Upton. But not both.
Grienke is nuts if he doesn’t take that offer from Brewers. He won’t get more in FA, not even close. Maybe he just wants out of Milwaukee
“I would trade Nunez or Phelps for Upton. But not both.”
you serious?
YF,
good call on Ramirez….that’s interesting that he’s not on there.
You would be stupid not to trade nunez,and phelps for upton.
My guess is Towers would ask for Hughes and Phelps +. Then Look elsewhere down-the-road for his 3B.
Either, but not both. I’m not married to Phelps. but I’m not married to the idea of Upton either.
I wonder if the Yankees would consider renting Ichiro for the rest of the season. If its only money and a low to middle prospect it might make sense. It won’t affect the 189 target in fact it might make it easier to meet than other options to bring in an outfielder.
Nunez is a back up infielder and Phelps even though I like him a lot is probably a 4th or 5th starter in the big leagues in the AL….Upton is one of the most talented players in baseball and he’s actually younger than both Nunez and Phelps!
I’d drive Phelps and Nunez to Arizona if that was all they wanted for Upton.
Phelps isn’t even our 6th starter with Andy healthy and Nunez is replacing Jeter the way Bubba Crosby was replacing Bernie.
I guess, Blake. I’m just trying to get a player giving up as little major league ready players as possible (as they can actually help us).
I’m not high on Nunez or super-pumped about Phelps like some here are. But I’m hesitant.
Remind me who went in the Granderson deal? Jackson, Kennedy, Coke? I guess you’d need something similar. I may be severely under-reaching but am not totally sold on Upton. Though I’m not sure why. If he’s simply a salary “dump” what hoer teams have a need and will take that on? How many teams are seriously in in Upton?
“How many teams are seriously in in Upton?”
I would guess all 29 have called and the ones who actually have enough to get him have seriously talked about it at least…..
DKnobler
?@DKnobler
Follow
Tigers’ goal on trade market remains a difference-making starting pitcher. Not sure they’ll be able to get one.
Wouldn’t Garza be considered a difference maker? I’m assuming they’re not talking top-tier pitchers.
@Jpmatrixfan88
“Dickerson is absolutely no faster than Wise is. Wise would easily beat Dickerson in a race”
And I am guessing you know there times for the 100m sprint? To me Dickerson seems faster and a better baserunner. Who wins in a race? I obviously don’t know for sure but either way I think it would be pretty close and neither would be the other one “easily”
m – Big difference is Garza isn’t controlled at a reasonable AAV the way Upton is.
$12 million AAV for a five tool outfielder who isn’t even 25 is a pretty nice deal.
*their times /*beat the other one ~ brainfart moment… TGIF
I think Garza would be a good pick up for Detroit….he’d at least give them innings. Their biggest problem is that they have no idea who Scherzer is from start to start…..he’s a #1 some days…..he’s awful the next…..too bad the Yankees saw good Scherzer in the playoffs.
Hello again,
M,
You bring up the Granderson trade, which i think is very on point. When we traded for Granderson, you traded future for present, and it turned out very good for us Then…This is a completely different environment…We need to do things the other way around, trade present for future…Wouldn’t you like to have jackson roaming CF nowadays?….As big a talent as Upton can be, I don’t think gutting the farm, taking away current roster players and on top of it, pay for a fairly expensive contract, makes sense for the Yankees. This are not the good old days when you could cover mistakes with money or you could simply replenish the farm with IFA…OTOH, the core of the team is old and needs to be replaced, therefore you need as many players with upside in order to rebuild it.
I was talking Garza for Detroit, referring to the tweet blake posted.
Upton-maybe-for us.
I think Upton would be great, it’s just a matter of prying him out of their hands for less than would be expected. Donnybrook has convinced me that the market for Upton is not all that great. But Phelps + Hughes is a no-go for me.
“Donnybrook has convinced me that the market for Upton is not all that great. ”
it’s better than you’d think…..Towers could still get a load for him…he won’t be selling him cheap
$12 million AAV for a five tool outfielder who isn’t even 25 is a pretty nice deal.
============================
Shame,
If he becomes what he is supposed to become, yes…But what happens if he doesn’t?…Then it is a very expensive deal for us..
We don’t really need to make a trade. Especially 2 good starters for an outfielder who may or may not play well here. And he certainly won’t give you 24hr 62rbi in the 2nd half
Not to mention that he is probably going to require an extension and that 12 mil AAV goes to 14-15 AAV?
towers is a good baseball man, why does he want to sell low on upton?
“As big a talent as Upton can be, I don’t think gutting the farm, taking away current roster players and on top of it, pay for a fairly expensive contract, makes sense for the Yankees”
If the top guys they had in the minors were in AAA I’d agree…..but the issue is that that group of players won’t be in the big leagues until 2014 at the earliest and it may be 2015 or 2016 before they hit their stride and really contribute for the Yankees…..the current team will need offensive help probably starting next year and the farm isn’t ready to provide it unfortunately.
I wouldn’t gut the farm system…..but I’d be aggressive if I could get a young impact outfielder…..
igotid88 July 20th, 2012 at 4:33 pm
We don’t really need to make a trade. Especially 2 good starters for an outfielder who may or may not play well here. And he certainly won’t give you 24hr 62rbi in the 2nd half
======================
Even if he does, is not enough
“towers is a good baseball man, why does he want to sell low on upton?”
he won’t….if he trades him he’ll get close to regular value for a guy that’s underperforming…..because Upton is very highly thought of in the game.
luis – Fair point but it all comes back to what you’re giving.
If we had to trade Phelps or Hughes, the same argument could be made about them living up to potential. Same for anyone that thinks Nunez could help you get Upton.
Anyway, m was talking about trading Nunez + Phelps for Upton lol… and I’d take that risk any day of the week! I do agree with her though that you can’t include two MLB ready pitchers in the deal unless one of them is named Garcia.
“Not to mention that he is probably going to require an extension and that 12 mil AAV goes to 14-15 AAV?”
now if he tries to use his no trade to do this…..then that’s a different story.
“If the top guys they had in the minors were in AAA I’d agree…..but the issue is that that group of players won’t be in the big leagues until 2014 at the earliest and it may be 2015 or 2016″
This is a really key point.
We are lacking AAA talent. We could be gripping over trading a Williams or Austin or Sanchez that don’t come anywhere near being the big league talent we’re envisioning.
blake July 20th, 2012 at 4:35 pm
“Not to mention that he is probably going to require an extension and that 12 mil AAV goes to 14-15 AAV?”
now if he tries to use his no trade to do this…..then that’s a different story.
—————-
Absolutely. If he blocks us or the Dbacks know he will then it’s sort of a non-starter.
If Gary Sanchez, Mason Williams, and Tyler Austin were all sitting there in AAA raking and knocking on the big leagues door then the Yanks wouldn’t need to do anything at all…….
now you could argue that maybe that’ll happen in 2 years and it might….but it might not and also I care about whether the club wins this year and next also…..actually I think 2012 and 2013 is a championship window for the Yankees….
blake – If they can win one this year that’d go a long way to mitigate the growing pains in the next two seasons while we wait for some big $$ contracts to fall off.
Maybe Zona will want Pineda
Blake,
What you say is very on point…This is one of the reasons i didn’t like the Montero trade…I knew that at some point they would be needing to trade for a bat…You are right, they are not in triple A, but I am willing to bet that at least two, maybe three become serviceable to very good Mayor leaguers…One player does not make a team, and I am a believer of the homegrown core…You told me that we are exchanging prospects in areas of need? I would be open to it…Or are we going to trade some current roster players for MLB players, I am in… I just don’t think that a Granderson like trade ( which saving the distances, this is pretty much like it) will be smart in the current environment
im definitely warming on the upton idea but i also think they are going to want nova instead of hughes plus two good prospects.
“actually I think 2012 and 2013 is a championship window for the Yankees”….
=======================================
Blake,
I think this is the crux of the issue for me…I think that 2012 is a championship year, but from then on, it should be staying competitive while rebuilding period…Maybe a little down turn might happen…Too many holes to fill and no money to do so.
“I just don’t think that a Granderson like trade ( which saving the distances, this is pretty much like it) will be smart in the current environment”
I think it depends….the Granderson trade has worked out for the Yankees ok….Jackson still isn’t as good as him IMO and their pitching is ok without Kennedy. Also….Upton is significantly young than Granderson was…..he’s almost like trading for a prospect.
* No money to cover them* that is
This hypothetical deal all depends on what it costs you. We’re trying to evaluate something we don’t know the value of/cost of.
Like YS just said, they might want Nova and two good prospects. Who would the good prospects be? Is Zona content to have guys that wont be MLB-ready until 2014+? It’s just hard to say and of course these guys aren’t going to be tipping their hands with proposed deals that have been floated until after the fact (think Felix trade talk).
Blake,
LOL!! well not exactly a prospect (he is being paid very well already
) But I get your drift…Still hesitant though
“LOL!! well not exactly a prospect (he is being paid very well already ) But I get your drift…Still hesitant though”
I just meant he’s almost a prospect’s age….meaning that you’d have like 10 good years out of him….he’s still 2 or 3 years away from his prime age.
Would you guys trade Nova/Hughes straight up for Upton?
“Would you guys trade Nova/Hughes straight up for Upton?”
yes
I just meant he’s almost a prospect’s age….meaning that you’d have like 10 good years out of him….he’s still 2 or 3 years away from his prime age.
========================
I know Blake, I was just messing with you on that one
blake July 20th, 2012 at 5:07 pm
“Would you guys trade Nova/Hughes straight up for Upton?”
yes
=========================
I would too…What about Pineda for Upton?..I like this one better
blake July 20th, 2012 at 5:07 pm
“Would you guys trade Nova/Hughes straight up for Upton?”
yes
—————-
Stop running him out of town, blake!!
(I totally would too lol. If it only costs you one pitcher when you currently have 7 viable starters and than yes, I think you do that.)
then yes* ugh..
“I would too…What about Pineda for Upton?..I like this one better”
Yes….any pitcher not named Sabathia I would run out of town for Upton
id grit my teeth hardest on Nova.
Shame!!!
I love your sense of humor man!!
Blake,
I don’t want Nova traded to tell you the truth…he has a very rare combination of stuff and make up…I honestly think that he is an ace in the making…In any case, I don’t think Towers trades Upton straight up either
The thing is.. we have a lot of pitching. Nova is also the one I’d rather keep at all costs if it really came down to a choice between Hughes/Nova. Sort of how when it came down to Kennedy/Hughes, I gave a sigh of relief knowing we’d still have the Phranchise in pinstripes.
Times change though.. and the more Hughes wins the more unlikely it is we can keep him. Us having control over Nova sort of works against him in that respect.
luis – Thank you
Things are slow with West Coast play and until the deadline passes/Upton is traded we’ll keep having this discussion for lack of anything better to talk about and a strong desire to avoid doing actual work at all costs.
I take avoiding doing work very seriously. I can only hope to get a little better at it as each day passes.
Not sure who wins that Guthrie v Sanchez trade.
I would do Nova but it woukd have to be real close to straight up.
Also….most of my opinions on this stuff are based on the assumption that Hal isnt going to let Cashman spend any money …..now if he has told him that he will be abke to spend to fix the offense if need be in the future then that would change my opinion a bit.
I love your sense of humor man!!
======================
are you calling Shame a man?
“Not sure who wins that Guthrie v Sanchez trade.”
Nobody
I hope Upton’s a star in MLB for 15 years, as many of you think he will be. I hope Montero is the “generational” bat as many of you think he will be. However, I like the team as it is now. You all want to trade everybody for somebody. Why? The “future”? The Yanks have done pretty well taking care of that. We don’t need anybody now. Let the off-season take care of itself. 3 of 4 in Oakland should help.. Let’s go, boys!
Mr Tom
The future is now!
Mr. mick,
Amen, Brother.
Blake I think your right there.
tom – When you quote the word “future” as if it’s not something the organization should concern itself with you lose me.
If they’re going to have a budget (they are) then they’re going to have to plan years in advance (we hope they are). That’s really all this discussion is born from. Everyone here knows we have a contender in 2012. We have a comfortable lead and the teams in our division have way more issues than we do. The Angels and Texas are x-factors only because they would look very formidable if they add a #1-like starter to either of those rotations.
No one here hates the Yankees. Sometimes we just forget to preface our posts with that.
“. You all want to trade everybody for somebody.”
Not really….just some people for some people…..i like the current team…it can always be better though and Id like next years team to be good as well.
Shame,
Keep at it, you are getting very proficient at dodging work!
Yes, I do hate West Coast play as well…And talking potential trades is part of the fun…Who doesn’t want to be a Gm for a day?!! 
I would keep Nova over Hughes, because i think he will be better in the long run. Not saying that Hughes won’t be very good, he will..I just think that Nova is better…But the years of control and the lack of flexibility does help Nova’s case.
Blake,
About your 5:21pm post…I know, we would be unwilling to trade if we could get the FA’s we need and they cost only money…I think we better get used to the small market mentality for two or three years
I hope Montero is the “generational” bat as many of you think he will be.
====================
Why?
He doesn’t play for us.
Mick,
I know Shame is a lady…But she is also one of the guys, if you get my drift
I know Randy Jackson calls women , “dudes,” and women call each other ‘guys,”I just have a problem calling women ,”men.”
mick July 20th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
I hope Montero is the “generational” bat as many of you think he will be.
====================
Why?
He doesn’t play for us.
========================
Because Tom is my friend and he wants me to be happy
Shame is also a founding member of Team Greed!
blake I will have to start calling you Gecko!
1. You guys are constructing Upton as a can’t miss star. Be careful.
2. If you trade Hughes and Nova for him, then who’s on the starting rotation in ’13 and ’14? Remember that salary cap/ luxury tax thing?
I don’t get the “rooting” for guys on other teams who once played for us.
Don’t root for Melky or Montero.
Could care less.
I root for this team.
Got to go…Be back later…have a good one…Shame, I hope that i didn’t offended by me using the term “man”..If i did, please excuse me.
Tom,
We have a great team and the best record in baseball, no one is complaining, it’s mostly a healthy mental exercise.
Later
1. You guys are constructing Upton as a can’t miss star. Be careful.
–
Career .276 .357 .476 .832 with great defense that is young as hell. He is kind of a star already, no worry on missing it. His upside is a .900 OPS RFer
Im not really greedy in real life….just in fake GM land.
2. If you trade Hughes and Nova for him, then who’s on the starting rotation in ’13 and ’14? Remember that salary cap/ luxury tax thing?”
Good chance Hughes isnt in the 2014 rotation anyway
I thought Yankee fans by definition were greedy?
Always expecting to win and all that comes with that…
Doc Joe,
Nice to see you…I wouldn’t like to trade for Upton…You raise a couple of very good points…In the off season, however I would trade Granderson for prospects though…We need to trade present for future to make the inevitable downward period shorter and build a stronger core for a long and lasting new dynasty.
to make the inevitable downward period shorter
================
why is it inevitable.
do you think these “financial restraints” will be so limiting that we won’t be able to field a competitive team?
we have minor leaguers we have big hopes for`a great IF we will keep for 4-5 years more , at least.
where is all this fear coming from?
we have a tradition of winning and will continue to do so and will prolly have the highest payroll in baseball for years to come.
luis,
Yes, I want you to be happy and free, and I don’t even care if you suggest trading everybody in Charleston and Tampa, because it makes you happy! I just don’t have to agree. I want to win now, and none of these suggestions make sense, now, or for the future.
minor leaguers we have big hopes for, a great IF we will keep for 4-5 years more , at least.
@jnorris427
Sounds like Jose Campos is done for the year, per Nardi Contreras. #Yankees
blake July 20th, 2012 at 5:39 pm
Im not really greedy in real life….just in fake GM land.
——————
Yea what you think of baseball doesn’t really translate into what you think of life despite the conclusions people try to draw.
Besides, see as how most of us are America, home of one of the finest sports ever to be played, I’d say being a part of Team Greedy is in our natural make up.
“I want to win now, and none of these suggestions make sense, now, or for the future.”
I dunno man, replacing Ibanez/Jones/Wise with Upton as your 3rd OFer along with Swish and Granderson makes us pretty good in the now as well as in the future.
And no one is trying to trade Hughes AND Nova.. in fact, Team Greedy is trying to figure out how we can keep one and still get what we want! That’s what Team Greedy is all about.
“see as how most of us are America”
Um wow.. “seeing as how most of us are American”
I hate my fingers.
Jerkface July 20th, 2012 at 5:52 pm
@jnorris427
Sounds like Jose Campos is done for the year, per Nardi Contreras. #Yankees
————————
Is it bad that whenever I see news like this I cry out ‘whyyyyy’ like Nancy Kerrigan?
Shame,
Let’s just get this year, and think about next year in the off=season. Can you think of a championship year (or the 1 in 16 non-winning years) when there were no good moves in the off-season?
Let’s just get this year, and think about next year in the off=season. Can you think of a championship year (or the 1 in 16 non-winning years) when there were no good moves in the off-season?
–
That is a silly strategy, because it means passing up good options for an uncertain future. It can also lead to paying higher prices (the yankees no extension plan). If a family doesn’t buy any ingredients for dinner until the time right before making it, they will incur lots of incremental costs. Its simply put, not the way to do business.
If your plan is to convince people that clearly enjoy speculating and discussing future moves, or moves now that impact the future, to stop doing that, I can tell you your actions are futile. You can sit and enjoy the immediate present, but leave us broad thinkers to our pleasures
JF,
Your menu strategies are of no interest to me. I can always shoot something, but I’m not giving up the title to the truck for a ham sandwich.
Your menu strategies are of no interest to me. I can always shoot something, but I’m not giving up the title to the truck for a ham sandwich.
–
Penalty, false analogy. Lose 10 yards. The Yankees would be trading sandwich materials, and possibly half of a sandwich, for a nice big sandwich. No one is a truck. And if your plan is to shoot something each night for dinner you’ll be SOL when there is nothing around to shoot.
tom – I like this year just fine, though.. and have been enjoying watching the team play. Really! But we know about the budget, we know we’re stuck with a lot of long term deals that work against our budget goals, and we know we need to find a way to mitigate that while still staying competitive. I don’t see much of a problem with thinking long term or trying to strategize to see what can be done to make the years we are still stuck with the bloated contracts of aging players more manageable. I know LoHud isn’t the war room but I hope the powers at be are thinking long term.
No comment.
Shame,
The comment after your was meant for JF. I don’t think for a minute they’re not thinking about that., and I don’t mind pie-in-the-sky proposals. Budget, and saving $50 million is no small thing for any enterprise.
tom – I’m sure they are as well and I’d be just as sure someone in the organization at least checked in on the asking price for Upton. They’ve probably done the same with Pence and Victorino and other players we know teams are dangling.
We just aren’t privy to those conversations so we have them ourselves lol.
Waiting until the off-season isn’t a bad strategy but in Upton’s case specifically we know he’s getting moved before the deadline since Zona has made that much apparent. If they end up hanging onto him unexpectedly there will probably be plenty of Upton talk this winter as well. I can already tell you there’s going to be a lot of Melky and Cano talk.
Shame,
Honestly, do you think we’ll pick up a big deal this summer?
Even if you’re not a basketball fan, you’ll enjoy this.
Kyrie Irving as an old man playing a pick-up game with a bunch of young guys, funny!
http://devour.com/video/uncle-drew/
Hello again,
Mick,
What I mean by downward period is that we may still be competitive, but we won’t have the same advantages we used to have. We will have to rely on pitching since our lineup is aging, and it is doing so at a faster rate that i anticipated. And yes, it is because of the budgetary restrains and the limitations the new CBA imposes on the draft and the IFAs.
We have too many bad long term deals and they are not going anywhere..Contrary on what you believe, our IF, especially the right side won’t be very good in a couple of years. And due to the budget, we will have to wait for the prospects to pan out. The best way to speed that process is by trading current roster players ( Like Granderson ) in order to get either more prospects closer to MLB play or for cost controlled MLB players.
After this season, If we win a WS in 2013 or 2014 for me is gravy. I rather trade those years for ten more afterwards of utter dominance. We would probably still make the PS in those “down” years though and who knows?
Tom,
Thank you my friend…FTR, I am a prospect hugger…There isn’t anything more rewarding for me than watch the prospects make it to the show…So I wouldn’t want to trade the farm…We may not agree on some things, but we do agree on many others..
the Yankees biggest weakness is that they fall in love with their prospects. its inexcusable to let guys like Eduard Nunez, Alan Horne, David Adams, and Andrew Brackman prevent you from landing elite, major league proven talent. then they turn around and exile guys (Kennedy, Clippard, Melancon, and Tabata) for next to nothing in most cases.
jmills, if you’re around, I’m wondering what you thought of the trade.
And for the love of Mike (make it any Mike you want) GO JAYS!!!!!
waka,
They don’t fall in love with their prospects…They have a tendency to trade them for more established players…But I think the new CBA is going to force them to rely on them like they have never before in the “Steins Era” with the exception of the early 90′s…There is no coincidence that the core that has given us so many satisfactions was draft and develop on those years
* drafted and developed on those years* it should say
also: getting tired of Cashman claiming that everyone “too much” for players. you’re not going to Bobby Abreu everyone, Brian. every single prospect he has ever traded (minus Montero) has, for some reason, lost stock in the teams eyes (Kennedy, Jackson, Tabata). you have to give to get or face the prospect of watching these guys get released or become minor league free agents.
“The Core” almost never happens. the Yankees incredibly lucky with Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Williams, and Pettitte. if the Yankees are forced to rely on their prospects then they’re going to be in for a rude awakening because they don’t have too many good ones that are close to ML ready.
Waka,
that’s why I say that we are heading for a downward period…How long or short will depend on how they manage their assets from here on out…This OS is going to be very interesting…The dynasties this team has enjoyed in the past, where in no small part thanks to their homegrown talent…
i don’t think they’re heading for a downfall per say. the Yankees have a lot going for them:
- i am in the minority but i think they will find a way to keep both Cano and Granderson.
- the CBA will have a league wide effect.
- they have a #1 under control for the foreseeable future.
- New York is always an attractive place to play and if the CBA has a drastic effect on salaries, players could be swayed into taking pay cuts to play in NY
- the second wild card will ensure that teams hoovering around .500 will be in the playoff hunt.
The Yankees traded away prospects year after year because of a “we must win now” mentality, fostered by George Steinbrenner and readily adopted and assimilated by a rabid fanbase. That same fanbase tends to show a schizophrenia because it on the one hand wants to hold onto key pieces of the farm system while at the same time wanting to bring in some established bat(s).
As the saying goes, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t want to win for today and hold off for tomorrow because those are pretty mutually exclusive.
Unless of course you realize that the way you can have both is to cool your jets and realize the team you have now is more than set up to win – and by cooling your jets, you can in turn hold onto key pieces of the farm system and let the kids from below start to be brought into the mix.
“i am in the minority but i think they will find a way to keep both Cano and Granderson.”
As do I. I also find that when you’re in the minority here, you usually end up getting it right. The majority tend to show a lack of patience. Successful teams aren’t run by impusive actions.
.Contrary on what you believe, our IF, especially the right side won’t be very good in a couple of years.
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luis
i assume you meant the left side, if you are dyslexic, forgive me.
Trisha,
You make a very good point.
Waka,
I didn’t used the term downfall…I used downward, I do think they still will be able to stay competitive…But they will have to rely in the farm system more heavily form here on out
Yes Mick, I was thinking from the pitching position and not from the C
luis – thank you.
Yes Mick, I was thinking from the pitching position and not from the C
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left side is ss and 3b no matter where you are standing
No problem Trish, credit where credit is due…I would say this though, most posters here just like to see what the future might hold and think of strategies to improve the team, i think is a good mental exercise …Personally, I never endorsed the “win now”mentality…But I am a confessed prospect hugger
luis , don’t you think the farm is rich in possible future stars?
Point taken Mick, I was just thinking like a pitcher, when I pitched they were at my right hand side, but yeah, they are on the left side of the field
Yes Mick…I do believe it, but it will take a while before they get here
New thread
I’ve got an extra ticket to tonight’s game that I’m giving away, anybody in the Bay Area want it?