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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Lowe: “We’re in this for the long haul”

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Aug 14, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Here’s Derek Lowe talking about his first game in pinstripes:

“I think it’s pretty cool, because I hear a lot of people saying, ‘Derek, I love you.’ I don’t know if that’s for me, or for Jeter. I think it may be for me, so I think that’s kinda cool.”

As you can tell,l Lowe was in the mood for a few smiles last night. His four scoreless innings proved that he might not be a desperation signing after all. He’d spent the past week and a half or so in Florida getting his mechanics straightened out, and he gave the Yankees everything they could have asked for on his first night with the team.

“Outstanding sinker tonight is what I saw,” Joe Girardi said. “He may not have the velocity that he used to have, but he’s got an outstanding sinker and a slider and he got a lot of groundball outs tonight. That’s the Derek Lowe I remember.”

Impossible to say what kind of lasting impact Lowe might have. It seems all but certain he won’t pitch the next two games, and he might not pitch the next three, but he could certainly make a weekend appearance against his old team from Boston.

“The thing about a sinker is: When I can’t see the sink, it’s good,” Lowe said. “When I can see it, it stinks. Probably, people on TV, the ones that go ‘wheee,’ and that look great, they stay in the same plane. They may look great on TV, but when I throw a ball, and you can’t see the sink, it’s good because it’s going down at the right time. Whereas if I can see it moving, it’s not going to be very good. There’s only one way — hitters are the ultimate telltale. They’ll tell you how good your stuff is. I don’t care how good you think your stuff is, they’re the ultimate answer. If you’re getting positive results, then you’re doing the right thing. If you’re not, you’re not. It’s that simple.”

Lowe got positive results last night, and maybe he can scratch out a two-month role in this bullpen. If he’s as good as he can be, he could make the Yankees think about using him in some significant innings, but that’s a discussion for another day. For now, Lowe’s done his job on a night when the Yankees needed him. And he was all smiles afterward.

“Clearly you don’t throw as hard as you normally do, and when you lose your deception, you’re in for a world of hurt,” Lowe said. “So I had to get back to hiding the ball a little bit better. And so far, so good. I’m not going to do jumping jacks tonight because you pitch one good game. We’re in this for the long haul, and we’ve just got to continue to work.”

Associated Press photo

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255 Responses to “Lowe: “We’re in this for the long haul””

  1. Yankee Trader August 14th, 2012 at 9:05 am

    Paco-

    Just reporting the news. Jerkface is our resident statistician and might be able to answer your question.

    Austinmac-

    Phelps. 4 pitches, works fast, great pickoff move, doesn’t seem to get rattled. If he can hold down the 3rd best AL offense his next start vs Boston, he should stay in the rotation.

    Now Yankees give our Ace-Kuroda some run support for a change! :)

  2. Shame Spencer August 14th, 2012 at 9:09 am

    Loved what I saw from Phelps last night. That kid has a great pick off move!! I dunno how I missed that before.

    This.. ““No general manager in the game has surrounded himself with smarter people than Cashman. No general manager has more detailed scouting reports on players.” ”

    Is ….interesting.

  3. Shame Spencer August 14th, 2012 at 9:11 am

    I almost forgot myself, pardon my bad manners: Good morning, morning crew!

    “Jerkface is our resident statistician and might be able to answer your question.”

    Yeah thank god for JF. I still want him to run the # of runs scored via the HR for the 1961 season lol. Another big HR saved us yesterday.

  4. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 9:17 am

    . I still want him to run the # of runs scored via the HR for the 1961 season lol. Another big HR saved us yesterday.

    46.5% 385 runs

    The starter thing is too hard for me to do on my own because its not a kept stat. I can do the lead thing though.

    Yankees win 91% of the time when leading at the start of the 7th inning. League average is 88% Rangers: 93% WS: 88.9% Tigers: 86.5% Rays: 91% A’s: 87.5% Angels: 83.6%

  5. Cashmoney August 14th, 2012 at 9:23 am

    This.. ““No general manager in the game has surrounded himself with smarter people than Cashman. No general manager has more detailed scouting reports on players.”
    ——
    yeah, they were in hot pursuit of dempster, lmao.

  6. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 9:26 am

    Having lots of talented advisers and good intel can’t stop you from using the information and advice poorly.

  7. Bo knows August 14th, 2012 at 9:26 am

    Two things about last night game. I overspent all my superlatives on the pitching last night.

    Swisher probably had the two best swings I’ve seen from him in a couple of months. Both the HR and the single. He had a plan coming to the plate, waited on the pitch, and executed. Mind you, he seems to have the attention span of a gnat. He pulled a groin, doing one of his “Hero” swings a while back. Time will tell.

    Martin is another one – stroked a beautiful single to start the inning and then it was, “As you were, I wanna be a hero”

  8. blake August 14th, 2012 at 9:28 am

    “Who goes to the pen, and why, when CC comes back?”

    TBD

  9. Cashmoney August 14th, 2012 at 9:29 am

    “Outstanding sinker tonight is what I saw,” Joe Girardi said.
    ——-
    behind the iron curtain defense of Capt Martin, he made that possible.

  10. Cashmoney August 14th, 2012 at 9:30 am

    Having lots of talented advisers and good intel can’t stop you from using the information and advice poorly.
    ——-
    you ever read ‘the best the brightest’ by Halberstam, Jerk. a good read.

  11. blake August 14th, 2012 at 9:31 am

    “Martin is another one – stroked a beautiful single to start the inning and then it was, “As you were, I wanna be a hero””

    I watch Martin do that sometimes and I wonder why the next AB he will go up there and swing out of his shoes 3 times……I think Martin has the ability to.be a much better hitter than he is……

  12. Cashmoney August 14th, 2012 at 9:34 am

    humility blake, the the true capt does not want to outshine jeter and his fellow teammates. he only flash his reservoir of immense hitting talent in the most dire moments. rudimentary, Watson.

  13. Bo knows August 14th, 2012 at 9:37 am

    TBD

    ——–
    And isn’t that a sweet problem to have.

    Normally, I’d have toned down my yips about Phelps. “No book on him, the League will adjust etc”, but he used his full arsenal, pitched to all four quadrants, there was a plan on each at bat.

    Tough to book him, Dano.

  14. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 9:38 am

    MTU August 14th, 2012 at 8:27 am

    Want to trade a Pitcher in the OS ?

    Think about moving Hughes and keeping Phelps.

    *********

    WOW, never thought I’d hear that from you. You must really REALLY love Phelps. And I agree, even if money were not a factor.

  15. yanks61 August 14th, 2012 at 9:39 am

    Yankee Trader and Villa Nova Ya – Glad you both liked the article. You two always contribute among the best thought out and balanced remarks. Always good to read you.

    “they were in hot pursuit of dempster, lmao.”

    “Having lots of talented advisers and good intel can’t stop you from using the information and advice poorly.”

    Cashman /JF – you win some and you lose some. All I’m saying (as is the author) is that on balance, Yankee Mgmt has won a lot more than they’ve lost.

    Look up some of the dumb deals George Weiss concocted back in the 50s during the Third Dynasty. Still, he won far more than he lost. Obviously the times have changed dramatically and the game, going forward, is a lot tougher than it was then. Everyone has his own opinion. Mine simply is that Yankee Mgmt, all things considered, does a pretty darn good job.

    That’s not saying they should be immune from critcism, only that the positive and the negatives should both be weighed.Guys like YT, VNY, Blake and a number of others do that routinely. Some other folks just seem to have an ax or two to grind – continuously.

  16. Tackelberry August 14th, 2012 at 9:41 am

    How bout we keep both Hughes AND Phelps? Hughes has a couple of bad outings and of course, he gets thrown under the bus. Typical frontrunners. Same with Nova. Then these same hypocrites kill Cashman when he trades away our young players instead of givign them a chance to develop. He just can’t win

  17. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 9:42 am

    Freddy Garcia.

    Is it possible that CC will return before the August waiver wire deadline? CC is supposed to miss some starts but they said 2-3 which could mean just 2 starts missed. Plus they have Andy Pettitte due to return and must have an accurate read on his timetable. Maybe it’s sooner than we think?

    Maybe you can keep Phelps in the rotation and put Freddy Garcia on waivers and grab a prospect for him. Wouldn’t someone like LAD, Pitt or CIN grab Garcia for September?

    Is Garcia going to get a start in the playoffs? No.

    Is Garcia going to pitch out of the pen? No. Derek Lowe could be the long man and Phelps would be stretched out.

    Is Garcia going to pitch next year? No.

    So why not get something for him?

    Just sayin’

  18. Bo knows August 14th, 2012 at 9:43 am

    I watch Martin do that sometimes and I wonder why the next AB he will go up there and swing out of his shoes 3 times……I think Martin has the ability to.be a much better hitter than he is……

    ———–
    And last night, in the same inning. Score is 5-2, men on second and third, pitcher struggling. “Same as before, please, Thurman. Oh chit, he’s reverted” Expletive, Obscenity, Expletive. Something about pimples, posteriors and pismires.

  19. blake August 14th, 2012 at 9:46 am

    “How bout we keep both Hughes AND Phelps? ”

    Yea again the issue with Phil is that he will be a FA soon…..and I dont know that hed sign back with the Yanks anyway ……I wouldnt if I were him……Id head back home to the NL west where those parks better fit his style of pitching.

    So while I do think Hughes is trending in a positive direction overall…..he still has some warts he has to iron out and the Yanks need to decide this winter how to proceed with him….if he will be too costly to re-sign or if they can use him to fill other needs then they may need to consider that.

  20. Cashmoney August 14th, 2012 at 9:46 am

    All I’m saying (as is the author) is that on balance, Yankee Mgmt has won a lot more than they’ve lost.
    ——–
    on balance, lot of Yankee GM has won a lot more than they have lost. That single determinant does not equal to Cash and his Posse are the best and brightest out there. Cash definitely deserve credits for adding useful auxilliary pieces to a 200 mil dollars team this year. he deserves credits for that. leave at that, the conjecture of Cash surrounds himself with most knowledge people and smartest is really a stretch from that jumping point.

    just my 2 cents as well.

  21. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 9:49 am

    And now Blake releasing baby Hughes from his fatherly clutches? What is going on here lately?

  22. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 9:49 am

    Then these same hypocrites kill Cashman when he trades away our young players instead of givign them a chance to develop.

    Hughes is 1 year from FA. He isn’t a young player waiting to develop. He has had a lot of time to develop. He still isn’t there yet. They do not have to move him, but moving him could be smart.

  23. Cashmoney August 14th, 2012 at 9:51 am

    similar to your tearful farewell to Dejesus, Brett. ppl move on to more shining toys.

  24. Bo knows August 14th, 2012 at 9:51 am

    Oh, and chain Nova to Lowe for the rest of the season. “Lowe, your mandate is to talk sinker to Ivan, breakfast, lunch and supper. Sinker bedtime stories. Keep him away from Rothschild and his SO, one size fits all, mantras. I want two pitch at bats, weak grounders and short innings”.

  25. mick August 14th, 2012 at 9:52 am

    The Yanks have a good problem , an overabundance of pitching.
    If Phelps continues to shine, why put him back in the pen?
    He could be a factor in the post season.
    Joe likes to audition, remember the 6 man staff last year?
    Give Phelps 3 more starts, bring CC back with the Sept callups.
    Assess Hughes and Nova till then.
    Watch Freddy and Lowe……then let Sept play out til play offs.

  26. blake August 14th, 2012 at 9:52 am

    “And now Blake releasing baby Hughes from his fatherly clutches? What is going on here lately?”

    Nah thays basically what ive said all along…..I lije Hughes but they need to decide soon whether his future is in Ny or elsewhere……either offer him an affordable extension or deal him…..

  27. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 9:53 am

    Jerkface too?

  28. blake August 14th, 2012 at 9:55 am

    “Oh, and chain Nova to Lowe for the rest of the season. “Lowe, your mandate is to talk sinker to Ivan, breakfast, lunch and supper.”

    Yup…..

  29. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    Igotid88 is going to have to sneak in here and do some damage control.

  30. blake August 14th, 2012 at 9:57 am

    Hughes would be great for the Dodgers…..thats a great park for him and hes from there. Not saying they should trade him yet…..just that there are teams like that that should value him strongly…..the Padres too…..

  31. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 9:59 am

    Maybe Hughes would throw like Dempster in the NL and dominate, especially in a park like Petco.

  32. blake August 14th, 2012 at 9:59 am

    The Yanks basically need to decide this winter whether to offer Hughes a cheapo extension or to trade him……..hes a chip and if they dont see him being on the club beyond 2013 then they need to try and get value for him…..

    With the budget and restrictions on everything you cant afford to just let guys walk for nothing anymore…..its going to be too hard to get replacement talent.

  33. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 10:01 am

    If that’s the case then looks like they have to decide on Granderson as well. It’s a little trickier with him though because he’s a huge part of the offense while Hughes is a borderline starter in the playoffs. The Yankees could easily make do without him starting a playoff game.

  34. blake August 14th, 2012 at 10:01 am

    Dempster probably cost himself millions by choosing the Rangers over the Braves……and the Braves got lucky because they got to keep Delgado and wound up getting a guy thats pitching better and paid less for him

  35. Shame Spencer August 14th, 2012 at 10:03 am

    Jerkface – Thanks man, good stuff! I also got through a couple of the A Song for Ice and Fire books, btw.. I’m addicted. (I think it was you that also read them but if I’m mistaking you for another well read poster excuse my idiocy… Its the objective pipe’s fault.)

    I want to see Phelps get another start… he’s definitely going to, right?

  36. longtimefan August 14th, 2012 at 10:03 am

    Lowe did a nice job lastl night but lets wait to annoint him a savior–I was more impressed with what Phelps was able to do–everytime he has been asked to step up this season he has–kid knows how to pitch, is young and could figure into the yanks future plans–Lowe is a rental that may provide some help down the stretch, will be interesting to see where the chips fall once CC and Andy return!

  37. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    I agree unless the Yankees find a West Coast team where Hughes could sign an extension, he doesn’t have much value just having 1-year left in him. But then again, look what SF accomplished in riding Melky’s contract year.

  38. Cashmoney August 14th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    Mo be a better trade chip…especially if Yanks can get him at a disc. of course, If Sori opt out, I wont trade Mo. I trade Jeter as well, except his contract would scare lot of team away. but i doubt that would happen, because inflexibility of Yankee’s way.

  39. Yankee Trader August 14th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    Thanks all for your input.

    If “Mission Impossible” Phelps performs well against the 3rd best AL offense-Boston, I’d like to see him stay in the rotation.

    4 pitches, great pickoff move, works fast, seems to keep his focus when in trouble.

    Have to go now.

    Again, please give our Ace, Kuroda some run support for a change, tonight.

    Have a great day everyone.

    Until later.

  40. Bo knows August 14th, 2012 at 10:06 am

    Yep, if that’s the plan, sign Hughes to an extension and then trade him. A reasonable contract is more attractive than one yr term.

  41. Shame Spencer August 14th, 2012 at 10:06 am

    The question with Hughes is can he learn how to pitch without his stuff working for him. We’ve seen Nova battle through starts without his best stuff… Have we seen that from Hughes? Genuinely asking. I feel like, from the perspective of having no back up, that Nova has a better sense of how to pitch (between the ears) than Hughes does.

  42. randy l. August 14th, 2012 at 10:06 am

    “Mine simply is that Yankee Mgmt, all things considered, does a pretty darn good job.”

    you probably like Goldman Sachs too.

    the fact is the yankees have had the financial tables tilted considerably in their favor for years so there is no comparison to how well yankee management has done.

    they have trouble however beating a team like tampa on a regular basis even though they have a payroll that is multiples higher.

    take the money away, and yankee management is nothing special. now if you want to root for yankee money you’ll get no argument from me. i like it that they have it.

    i juts think it’s an embarrassment how little they do with it.

  43. blake August 14th, 2012 at 10:07 am

    “If that’s the case then looks like they have to decide on Granderson as well.”

    Yes

  44. Shame Spencer August 14th, 2012 at 10:07 am

    Cashmoney August 14th, 2012 at 10:04 am

    Mo be a better trade chip…especially if Yanks can get him at a disc. of course, If Sori opt out, I wont trade Mo. I trade Jeter as well, except his contract would scare lot of team away. but i doubt that would happen, because inflexibility of Yankee’s way.

    ————-

    Why you talk so crazy, bro?

  45. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 10:08 am

    Thanks man, good stuff! I also got through a couple of the A Song for Ice and Fire books, btw.. I’m addicted. (I think it was you that also read them but if I’m mistaking you for another well read poster excuse my idiocy… Its the objective pipe’s fault.)

    I want to see Phelps get another start… he’s definitely going to, right?

    It was me, good job. Phelps has to get another start. He has been dynamite.

  46. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 10:09 am

    He’s bored.

  47. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 10:10 am

    The question with Hughes is can he learn how to pitch without his stuff working for him. We’ve seen Nova battle through starts without his best stuff… Have we seen that from Hughes? Genuinely asking. I feel like, from the perspective of having no back up, that Nova has a better sense of how to pitch (between the ears) than Hughes does.

    Considering Nova’s record is worse, I’m sure we have seen it from Hughes. Neither are very consistent starters right now, but at least Nova is still relatively inexperienced.

  48. blake August 14th, 2012 at 10:10 am

    “I agree unless the Yankees find a West Coast team where Hughes could sign an extension, he doesn’t have much value just having 1-year left in him.”

    I think it depends……look what the Marlins just got for a half season of anibal Sanchez? If you find a club in win now mode that sees Hughes as an upgrade in their rotatation then they might give more than youd think.

  49. Shame Spencer August 14th, 2012 at 10:10 am

    Bo knows August 14th, 2012 at 10:06 am

    Yep, if that’s the plan, sign Hughes to an extension and then trade him. A reasonable contract is more attractive than one yr term.

    —————

    Depending on the contract you could get him to sign… it might just be better to keep him. Of course, if you’re trading him for Justin Upton you’ll get no arguments on here ;)

  50. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 10:13 am

    I would temper my expectations of Phil Hughes trade value right now. He could probably fetch some close to ML-ready prospect but I would think it’s a guy most haven’t heard of.

  51. Cashmoney August 14th, 2012 at 10:14 am

    Bo, something reasonable to the Yankees, might not be reasonable to others. Yanks FA normally don’t take disc (much like most of the FA) but sure, it wont hurt to test Hughes water to see if he is receptive to a disc which most likely will include a no trade clause.

  52. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 10:14 am

    i was happy with lowe, he had some nice movement on the sinker but it looked to me like he also hung a few that they either took or didn’t hit well. still, thats a nice pick-up even if he’s just a mop-up guy.

  53. Cashmoney August 14th, 2012 at 10:17 am

    shame, Mo has trade value so does Jeter. Yanks have apt replacements for both on their roster (my opinion) It’s not crazy to think along that line until you reach way of iconic Yankees that are untouchable way of thinking.

  54. Bo knows August 14th, 2012 at 10:17 am

    i juts think it’s an embarrassment how little they do with it.

    ———-
    Hah, all that Cashman praise got Randy out of the clutches of the Tootsie den.

    By the way, love your setup. “Once white man sell beads to natives, now we sell trinkets to tourists – Much wampum”

  55. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 10:17 am

    Looks like the Yankees don’t have the option of acquiring a prospect for Freddy Garcia on the waiver wire because the Orioles were so bad last year. They sit atop the list and would likely block Garcia from falling to a team like the Pirates or the Dodgers.

  56. DONNYBROOK August 14th, 2012 at 10:19 am

    A visiting team in Yankee Stadium needs (1) either a power SP\Verlander, or (2) a (L) SP to counter the (L) lineup the Yanks run out there. If your team is minus that, the odds are overwhelming your gonna get your hat handed to you.
    MLB needs to create a “15 Day Shell-Shock” DL for Chuckers like Dempster and Greinke. The DH eliminates the bottom of the lineup “escape hatch” these guys feed off of.
    Detroit Still reeling from the Yankee beat-down in the final 2 games in their own yard. Leyland knows that minus Konerko, this was Detroit’s opportunity to reclaim the Division.

  57. Bo knows August 14th, 2012 at 10:20 am

    I’ve been living and dying with Hughes ever since I first heard of him, something like eight years ago. Invested a lot of time and effort on him. Sometimes, you have to let them go free.

  58. Cashmoney August 14th, 2012 at 10:21 am

    donnie , nice narrative. you do realize Greinke won a CY in the American league,no?

  59. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 10:23 am

    Looks like the Yankees don’t have the option of acquiring a prospect for Freddy Garcia on the waiver wire because the Orioles were so bad last year.

    The waiver wire goes by current record. But if you think the Orioles would claim Freddy then it doesnt matter because it will go AL first then NL.

  60. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 10:24 am

    That sucks.

  61. blake August 14th, 2012 at 10:24 am

    Greinke had the stuff to dominate anybody on a given day…..AL or NL……probably will take him time to adjust to his new environment …..still think he will help them before its over.

  62. DONNYBROOK August 14th, 2012 at 10:24 am

    Sure, know all about Greinke. He got too much R-and-R over there in the NL.

  63. DONNYBROOK August 14th, 2012 at 10:25 am

    Yea, take him 15 days to adjust, hence the 15 Day Shell-Shock DL.

  64. Bo knows August 14th, 2012 at 10:25 am

    Depending on the contract you could get him to sign… it might just be better to keep him. Of course, if you’re trading him for Justin Upton you’ll get no arguments on here

    ———-
    Yep, empty the “asset bin” for someone like Upton. Hughes, Warren, Nunez, Austin. What would be the value of Joba/Montgomery et al?

  65. Shame Spencer August 14th, 2012 at 10:27 am

    JF – You’re probably right about them both.. it’s hard to trust either in a playoff game. I think I just lean towards Nova because of that borderline c0cky (this is censored?!) confidence. He doesn’t have stuff as good as Phil, IMO, but he seems like he’s able to work better with what he has. I hope his development continues whereas Hughes’ has stalled somewhat.

    Those books are like crack. I think the last two come out years from now so I should slow down…

  66. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 10:29 am

    Those books are like crack. I think the last two come out years from now so I should slow down…

    Decades probably. It took him 6 years to release ADWD and like 5 years for AFFC. Though by all accounts the popularity of the TV show and having HBO breathing down his neck has kicked him into a little higher gear.

  67. PacoDooley August 14th, 2012 at 10:30 am

    Yankee Trader August 14th, 2012 at 9:05 am
    Paco-

    Just reporting the news. Jerkface is our resident statistician and might be able to answer your question.

    ——————————-

    I wasn’t intending my comment as a criticism of your post – still an interesting stat. Just that I find it hard to make much of a statistic if I have nothing to compare it to. Like someone might say that some team has won 30 of the 35 games in which they have hit more than one HR. That might actually be about league average considering that the two HRs mean that their offence was scroring runs… But it may also be exceptional – who knows without something to compare it to.

  68. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 10:31 am

    I lose every stare-down contest with my dog. He’s good. Damn good. Be back in a bit.

  69. DONNYBROOK August 14th, 2012 at 10:34 am

    Phelps did a good job, but the cart-wheels around here are More than he merited. The 2 pick-offs were Huge.

  70. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 10:38 am

    Bret-

    My POV on Hughes is similar to Blake’s.

    He is talented but has not reached his cieling (He might).

    Problem is he is going to get expensive soon.

    If a reasonable extension can be worked out I say go for it.

    Otherwise look at a trade.

    I think Phelps is a ML Pitcher. Warren is not necessarily chopped liver, and next year Banuelos might take the step forward I was hoping he would this year.

  71. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 10:43 am

    And let’s not write off Pineda just yet.

    ;)

  72. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 10:44 am

    id have to concur with donny about phelps. he was falling behind most of the hitters, got his pitch count up but the pickoffs saved him. it was a nice result against a good team, but im not doing cartwheels either.

  73. just_another_handle August 14th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    Sorry, don’t have a link for this but if you can find it, check out Montero’s throw last night in the 9th against the Rays. Fuld strikes out and slo-mo molina is chugging towards 2nd base. A good throw has him out by 6+ feet. Instead Montero sails it 6 feet to the right and high to the first base side of 2nd and slo-mo slides, falls, rolls awkwardly into 2nd safe without the second baseman even getting a glove on him. Montero is a catcher like Tebow is a quarterback.

  74. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 10:48 am

    No one is doing cartwheels just acknowledging progress and ability.

    And commending a guy for a job well done.

    I’m not an expert but I see a lot of things to like w. Phelps.

    In spite of that I don’t expect miracles.

    IMO I see a sucessful ML Pitcher. No idea exactly how successful.

    He’s inexpensive. That’s another virtue.

  75. mick August 14th, 2012 at 10:53 am

    In reality we have a competition for the 4th starter in the ALCS at hand.
    One start.
    Maybe another in the WS.
    We have a month and a half to decide.
    The tougher decision might be who stays in the pen.

  76. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 10:54 am

    thats a strange club down in tampa. while longoria was out two of the guys they needed to carry them, upton and jennings, did nothing. now since longoria’s back, they are tearing it up. meanwhile longoria himself has done nothing.

    james shields who was turribull the first 2/3 of the year has gone 24 innings his last 3 starts, allowing all of 3 runs and 12 baserunners.

    i have no doubt that longo is going to hit but if those 3 key players continue to play well, tampa bay (currently the wild-card) is going to be heard from.

  77. mick August 14th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    hughes nova garcia lowe phelps joba eppley rapada, logan, drob, soriano….feliciano?
    that’s a crowded pen…

  78. DONNYBROOK August 14th, 2012 at 10:56 am

    The Yanks did Phelp’s developement as a SP a dis-service when they promoted him to the Yankee Pen. High ceiling as a SP, but right Now, he reminds me of Robertson. That’s certainly Not a bad thing, but Phelps is supposed to be a SP. When CC comes back, Phelps should remain in the rotation, and Garcia goes to the Pen or gets dealt. Of course, the Yankees position in the AL East looms large over who goes where when CC returns.

  79. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 10:58 am

    Mick,

    Hughes, Nova and Phelps will make the postseason roster regardless. I think you start the one who stands the best chance to perform against a specific opponent.

    Game 1: CC

    Game 2: Kuroda

    Game 3: Pettitte

    Game 4: Depends on matchup

  80. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 10:58 am

    The Yankees have put Phelps thru many tests already and he has passed every single one of them with flying colors.

    That should count for something.

    ;)

  81. mick August 14th, 2012 at 11:02 am

    Hughes, Nova and Phelps will make the postseason roster regardless.
    ==================================
    I could see Nova left off. Hughes or Phelps to the pen.
    Garcia off, Lowe on.
    2 leftys would be nice.
    That leaves 9 relievers, 4 starters, still too many…

  82. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 11:02 am

    nobody’s supposed to be anywhere. he’s a pitcher. they use him where they need him. im so sick of all this crybaby ‘they didn’t develop him right’ crap. the mound is still 60′ 6″ from the plate and ball still weights 5.25 oz., throw it past the batter enough times and you’ll find your place on the team. plenty of pitchers in the hall of fame started out as relievers.

  83. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 11:05 am

    Mick

    I count 7 in the pen with 4 starters in the rotation for the playoffs

    hughes nova phelps
    hughes nova phelps
    lowe
    joba
    logan
    drob
    soriano

  84. austinmac August 14th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    Paco,

    I agree comparative stats are necessary to assess the real meaning.

    Hughes should be a trade candidate this off-season. He has shown enough to have value, but, to me, not enough to consistently succeed in the AL and Yankee Stadium. I have tried and tried to get on his bandwagon, but every time I do he gets killed with 91 mph fastballs down the middle. Phelps pitches while Hughes challenges with fastball after fastball.

  85. randy l. August 14th, 2012 at 11:06 am

    “Montero is a catcher like Tebow is a quarterback.”

    he threw out 1 of 3 last night.

    33%

    you are a baseball expert like curt shilling is a financial expert.

  86. mick August 14th, 2012 at 11:07 am

    if cc pitches 8/24 then someone has to go for a week via demotion, trade or waiver.
    or cc can come back 9/1, miss 2 starts.

  87. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 11:07 am

    whitey ford, nolan ryan, sandy koufax, don drysdale, bob gibson all went back and forth from starting to the pen in their first season.

  88. DONNYBROOK August 14th, 2012 at 11:08 am

    I’m guessing Girardi goes with his patented 3 Man Rotation in the 7 Game Post Season Rds. Should the Yanks get up 3-0, he might throw Hughes or Garcia out there as a SP. But my guess is he goes with CC\Kuroda\Nova\kitchen sink if Down 0-3.

  89. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 11:08 am

    the mound is still 60? 6? from the plate and ball still weights 5.25 oz.,

    But relievers and starters need different conditioning. You have to factor in building stamina. Not to mention that there are plenty of guys who were ruined by the approach, and failing to factor in the different time periods.

  90. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 11:08 am

    Mick,

    And because both Hughes and Phelps have pitched so successfully out of the pen, I would think the Yankees are hoping Nova finds it and grabs that 4th start. Hughes plus Phelps make the pen much more formidable.

    Game 1: CC
    Game 2: Kuroda
    Game 3: Pettitte
    Game 4: Nova

    Soriano
    D-Rob
    Phelps
    Joba
    Hughes
    Logan
    Lowe

  91. mick August 14th, 2012 at 11:09 am

    I count 7 in the pen with 4 starters in the rotation for the playoffs
    =====================
    no eppley or rapada?

  92. UnKnown August 14th, 2012 at 11:10 am

    I wonder what was so wrong with going to the Braves from Dempster’s point of view?

    That would have been a much better spot for him.

  93. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 11:10 am

    Yes Mick, no Eppley, Rapada nor Garcia.

  94. mick August 14th, 2012 at 11:11 am

    Game 1: CC
    Game 2: Kuroda
    Game 3: Pettitte
    Game 4: Nova

    Soriano
    D-Rob
    Phelps
    Joba
    Hughes
    Logan
    Lowe
    ===========
    you dont need a 4th starter for the alds, do you leave nova off and bring eppley or rapada…depends who they are playing.

  95. UnKnown August 14th, 2012 at 11:12 am

    Pretty sure the Yankees will at least carry 12 pitchers on their postseason roster.

  96. mick August 14th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    whitey ford, nolan ryan, sandy koufax, don drysdale, bob gibson all went back and forth from starting to the pen in their first season.
    =======================
    don’t forget john smoltz, dennis eckersley and derek lowe , not in their 1st season but able to adapt

  97. DONNYBROOK August 14th, 2012 at 11:13 am

    Till Pettitte pitches a MLB game in Sept, he can Not be counted on in the Post Season.

  98. mick August 14th, 2012 at 11:14 am

    Girardi is crazy enough to start Freddy in game 4 ALCS.

  99. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 11:14 am

    If they carry 12 they can bring Rapada.

  100. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 11:15 am

    ron guidry, andy pettitte, pedro martinez all saw time in the bullpen their first season.

  101. randy l. August 14th, 2012 at 11:15 am

    “The Yankees have put Phelps thru many tests already and he has passed every single one of them with flying colors.

    That should count for something.”

    he’s paid his dues, learned his craft.

    what’s not to like.

    pair him up with a really good yankee offense and he’ll win a lot of games :)

  102. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 11:16 am

    whitey ford, nolan ryan, sandy koufax, don drysdale, bob gibson

    Whitey Ford threw 200 innings in a season in the minors. Through 112 in the majors his first year. And 95 in the minors that same year. WRONG.

    Nolan Ryan took 4 years in the majors before he threw over 200 IP. Good plan?

    It took 6 years for Koufax to throw 200 IP!!! Good plan!?!?!? You do that in a free agency major league baseball and you don’t get Koufax’s amazing run. Not to mention he had his arm amputated. Not exactly ringing endorsement.

    Drysdale threw 173 IP in the minors. And in his debut season once threw 300 pitches over 3 days with no rest. Not to mention he went to winter ball!

    Gibson threw 200 innings his first year in the majors between the majors and minors.

    You need better examples. Though I will say there is no sure fire way to develop pitching, but the moving people back and forth thing hasn’t worked out for the Yankees yet, so why do it? Why not try another way?

  103. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 11:16 am

    A 3-4 combo of Melky-Cano would be a really good Yankee offense for years to come.

  104. blake August 14th, 2012 at 11:16 am

    “Phelps did a good job, but the cart-wheels around here are More than he merited. The 2 pick-offs were Huge.”

    hard to do cartwheels over any 1 start….but given that he hasn’t even been starting….that he was facing arguably the best offense in baseball…..he did a really nice job…..even the pick offs show awareness….the one to second was totally on his own.

    one start a career doesn’t make….and he’ll like struggle at some point….but you can see the competitiveness…..you can see that his stuff is good enough….and you can also see that he knows how to pitch……so it’s ok to feel good about it. It’s legit….

  105. UnKnown August 14th, 2012 at 11:18 am

    If the Yankees go into the ALDS as the #1 seed they will definitely need at least 4 starters if the series goes 5 games.

    CC Game 1 on Sunday
    Kuroda Game 2 on Monday
    Pettitte Game 3 on Wednesday
    CC Game 4 on Thursday (short rest) OR Nova Game 4 on Thursday
    CC Game 5 on Friday (regular rest) OR Nova Game 5 on Friday.

    I doubt CC and Kuroda would both go on short rest in the ALDS but they could. So it is possible that they wouldn’t necessarily have to have 4 starters, but it is a good bet.

  106. mick August 14th, 2012 at 11:18 am

    better to have an abundance of good pitching than not.
    this happened last year with the 6 man rotation and now there appears to 7 or 8 that could potentially start.

  107. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    ron guidry, andy pettitte, pedro martinez all saw time in the bullpen their first season.

    Guidry literally went from reliever to starter ala CJ Wilson. Andy Pettitte threw 188 IP in his first season. Pedro did not throw 200 IP for like 4 seasons. And he had 177 in the minors as his high.

  108. austinmac August 14th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    My eyes tell me Phelps has average to above average stuff. He can throw a four seamer up to 93, a two seamer that has good movement at 90-91, a cut fastball at 88-89, a change at about 84 and a curve a 81. What he can do is throw any of these pitches for strikes and isn’t afraid to do so. That will win a lot of games. None of the pitches indivually is great, but the combination prevents a hitter from sitting on one pitch.

    Frankly, watching him pitch vs. Hughes, and I see more reason to expect him to pitch better in the future than 2 1/2 pitch Hughes.

  109. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 11:19 am

    catfish hunter, vida blue, dave stewart, greg maddux, jack morris all were relievers their first season

  110. mick August 14th, 2012 at 11:21 am

    CC Game 4 on Thursday (short rest) OR Nova Game 4 on Thursday
    =======================
    Don’t forget Freddy.

  111. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 11:22 am

    Freddy won’t be on the roster I bet.

  112. mick August 14th, 2012 at 11:23 am

    CC Game 4 on Thursday (short rest) OR Nova Game 4 on Thursday
    ===========================================
    If Joba and Lowe pan out I could see Phelps pitching game 4.

  113. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 11:23 am

    Freddy and Fanny.

  114. blake August 14th, 2012 at 11:23 am

    I think Phelps is fairing well more because he threw a bunch of innings in the minors and learned how to pitch there than because he has threw a few big league innings in the bullpen…..maybe he gained some confidence out there and proved to himself that he could get big league hitters out…..but in learned how to pitch throwing 500 + innings in the minors.

  115. ron August 14th, 2012 at 11:23 am

    Trading a hughes,or any other pitcher will depend on the condition of our offense,and financial flexibility going forward.
    Do we stay the course offensively,and strengthen the pitching to compensate?
    Do,or should we sign cano,and granderson,making it impossible to add any other pieces going forward,and maybe having to dump gardner,hughes,and some other players as they cost more.
    Me personally,i think the best course of action is too trade cano,and granderson for as many position pieces as possible.

    Cano,and granderson should be able to land us 4 great prospects.
    2 for each player,imo is not over asking.

    Maybe a 3b,2b,cf,rf.

    Then keep all of our pitching,and we free up a lot of money for free agents to replace the offense lost.

    Cano will be looking for a massive deal,especially since he,and boras believe he has been giving the yankees a huge discount,as has been reported.

    The toughest thing in the world to do is parting with cano because he is one of the best offensive players in baseball,and a homegrown yankee,but the first year on his new deal,cano will be 32 years old.
    Just not a good idea.
    If we can extend him for 5/125,i’d jump on it,but that ain’t happenin.

  116. DONNYBROOK August 14th, 2012 at 11:24 am

    I believe CJ Wilson’s arm blew up and they did a Steve Austin on him.

  117. blake August 14th, 2012 at 11:24 am

    “A 3-4 combo of Melky-Cano would be a really good Yankee offense for years to come.”

    how about Melky, Cano, Justin Upton!

  118. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 11:24 am

    Mick,

    But Phelps has had so much success out of the pen and gotten big outs. It’s better that Nova starts game 4. Nova has time to find it.

  119. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 11:24 am

    Randy-

    I’m all for that.

    I expect some significant changes to the O in the OS, and possibly a Starter to be gone.

    In addition, I’d like an upgrade at C.

    So I’m on your balanced bandwagon.

    :)

    Blake-

    “He’s legit.”

    Yup.

    ;)

  120. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 11:24 am

    david cone made 11 appearances 0 starts his first season.

  121. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 11:26 am

    catfish hunter, vida blue, dave stewart, greg maddux, jack morris all were relievers their first season

    jack Morris pitched 200 Ip in his first season. Maddux 230 IP first season. Stewart had 200 Ip in 78. Pitched 200 IP~ a season until he came back to the majors. Relieved for an entire year. Then was up and down until he turned 30. Once again, not a great developmental path. Vida Blue pitched 100+ innings in the minors in both of his first 2 seasons in the majors. Catfish Hunter ramped up his contributions his first 3 seasons from 130-170-200+ he also never pitched in the minors.

  122. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 11:27 am

    tommy john started out as a reliever. it was 12 seasons before his surgery.

  123. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 11:27 am

    tommy john started out as a reliever. it was 12 seasons before his surgery.

    He pitched 220 IP in his first major league season.

  124. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 11:28 am

    Notice that basically none of these guys are sitting in the bullpen for an entire season not getting innings…

  125. UnKnown August 14th, 2012 at 11:28 am

    I am extremely impressed how this team has been able to side step all the injuries and yet have the best record in the AL. That is amazing.

    Depth and other guys continually stepping up has been the difference. Every time it seems as if the Yankees can’t afford anyone else to go down, someone does but they just keep on winning.

    Impressive stuff!!

  126. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 11:29 am

    so what you’ve shown is there is no direct correlation between starting relieving and succeeding. some take time to develop, some become good starters as soon as they go into the rotation. thereby proving my point.

    if a guy can get major league hitters out bring him up and let him pitch.

  127. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 11:30 am

    Transitioning Pitchers from the Pen to the Ro and back can be a tricky buisness.

    The Rangers have had mixed success with it.

    Their biggest failure being Feliz.

    Maybe he was an accident waiting to happen anyway.

    Who knows ?

    IMO the Verducci rules are valid guidelines and tend to minimize injury.

  128. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 11:31 am

    Blake,

    If you have Melky and J. Upton at the corners, you would have 3 OF prospects in waiting (Tyler Austin, Mason Williams, Slade Heathcott) yet only one spot to fill in CF. There’s a surplus there. You could probably get away with trading two of them because you still have Gardner. If you were willing to offer Tyler Austin, Mason Williams and Manny Banuelos, you’d be able to compete with other GM’s pursuing Justin Upton.

  129. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 11:33 am

    so what you’ve shown is there is no direct correlation between starting relieving and succeeding. some take time to develop, some become good starters as soon as they go into the rotation. thereby proving my point.

    No, what I disproved of your examples is that these guys pitched HELLA INNINGS! Which phelps is not doing. These old guys pitched 200 innings in the minors. Phelps max was 150 and he only got 120 last year.

  130. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    You completely ignored all the development these guys were doing in the minors in the same seasons you were referencing!

  131. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 11:34 am

    my understanding of the verducci rules is that pitchers who increase their innings pitched by more than 30 over their previous career high tend to get injured. at least thats the way the yankees interpret them.

    phelps pitched 154 innings in 2010, so he’s good to go 184 next year.

  132. Bret The Hitman August 14th, 2012 at 11:35 am

    And you’d still have Granderson to replace Banuelos and Austin/Williams.

  133. trisha - true pinstriped blue August 14th, 2012 at 11:35 am

    PUH-LEASE!

    “RISP: Yankees are now 82 for 247 since the All Star Break with RISP, that’s a .332 batting average with RISP”

    “Yankees are 30 for their last 78 with RISP, .385 BA w RISP in last 8 games.”

    I’ve got a good idea! Let’s keep pretending the Yankees have no offense!

    Ignorance is bliss.

    Why complain because the Yankees have cobbled together a great team? Hurt your feelings that they’re not spending like drunken sailors?

    Simply amazing.

  134. blake August 14th, 2012 at 11:35 am

    I think it’s interesting that once pitchers get to a certain age you tend to see less injuries….is that because they build their arms and get through some “injury matrix” or is it because simply the guys that have the genetic ability to stay healthy actually get to that age and continue to be able to pitch?

    How many pitchers do we see that are injury prone when they are young and then suddenly stop being injury prone? I guess there are some examples of that but to me I think a lot of it is just that some guys have better ligaments….better bones….better tendons that match up with throwing a baseball…….

    Thats not to say you shouldn’t have a program to build innings in a safe way and I do think there is something to all that…..but It never made sense to me that pitchers would get less injury prone as they got older…..it should be the opposite……maybe survival of the fittest just weeds out a lot of the injuries so that it seems that older pitchers are more durable when really they always were….. just a thought.

  135. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 11:36 am

    my understanding of the verducci rules is that pitchers who increase their innings pitched by more than 30 over their previous career high tend to get injured. at least thats the way the yankees interpret them.

    phelps pitched 154 innings in 2010, so he’s good to go 184 next year.

    This didn’t work out for Hughes. He was fatigued in 2010 and then injured in 2011.

  136. trisha - true pinstriped blue August 14th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    “How bout we keep both Hughes AND Phelps? Hughes has a couple of bad outings and of course, he gets thrown under the bus. Typical frontrunners. Same with Nova. Then these same hypocrites kill Cashman when he trades away our young players instead of givign them a chance to develop. He just can’t win”

    I’m with you – but…

    CC, Kuroda, Pettitte, Hughes, Nova, Phelps?

    What if Kuroda and Pettitte both come back for at least another year? Then things get complicated.

  137. blake August 14th, 2012 at 11:38 am

    “If you have Melky and J. Upton at the corners, you would have 3 OF prospects in waiting (Tyler Austin, Mason Williams, Slade Heathcott) yet only one spot to fill in CF. ”

    well you’d probably have to trade at least one of those guys to get Upton…..but if they could make Melky and Upton on the corners happen I’m all for it……but I don’t know how realistic either of those things are…..I don’t think they’ll pay for Melky….and I don’t know if they’ll be able to find a match for UPton or give what it’ll take. I think it should be a priority though given his contract and upside…..

  138. jacksquat August 14th, 2012 at 11:39 am

    Yankee Trader August 14th, 2012 at 7:51 am
    Here’s a stat for you.

    “The Yankees entered Monday’s game with a record of 54-23 when their starter goes six innings. That doesn’t say, “six innings, allowing three runs or less.”

    That’s six innings, period. Thirty-one games over .500.

    http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde…..a_for.html

    That means their record is 14-20 when a starter fails to go 6 innings,

    That’s going to be the key to their success down the stretch while Pettitte and Sabathia are out-pitch enough innings to keep the bullpen from imploding.

    Not blowing up the bullpen is important, but the reason for that stat is, if the starter completes 6 innings, it usually means he is pitching a good game, at least enough to keep the team in the game.

  139. trisha - true pinstriped blue August 14th, 2012 at 11:40 am

    Jerkface – can you set up this equation for me? 1/3 is to 120 as 1/2 is to?

    I’m sure I could puzzle it out but I know you can do it without thinking twice.

  140. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 11:41 am

    I am not a calculator.

  141. blake August 14th, 2012 at 11:42 am

    If the season ended today…..both the Angels and Detroit would miss the playoffs and the Rays and Orioles would be the WC teams.

  142. Hassey August 14th, 2012 at 11:43 am

    tonight’s the key game of the series, because we know, or at least I personally think, we’ll need the pen in a big way tomorrow night

  143. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 11:45 am

    I’m not sure how the Verducci rules apply to being shuttled back and forth between the Pen and Ro.

    Are all innings created equal, or is there a qulaitative difference ?

    I’m also not quite sure I buy the max. innings portion especially if those innings were logged several years prior.

    Blake makes a good point about the age of a Pitcher.

    For whatever reason it is a factor.

  144. Warning Track Power August 14th, 2012 at 11:45 am

    Lowe was outstanding last night. The ESPN broadcasters each expressed how well Lowe was pitching for 4 innings. I think Lowe could have thrown another 3-4 innings while keeping the Rangers off the scoreboard.
    2 different times Girardi has someone warming up in the pen and Lowe pitched well enough to stay on the mound.

  145. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 11:47 am

    If Kuroda pitches the way he has for quite sometime tonight I can see us winning.

    Is he due for a clunker ?

  146. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 11:47 am

    kershaw increased his innings by more than 50 from 2007 to 2008
    verlander increased his innings by 89 from 2005-2006 (71 more than his previous high)
    cole hammels increased his innings pitched by 81 over his previous high in 2006

    thats 3 of the best pitchers in the game, none of them have had surgery since.

    kinda belies the verducci rule doesn’t it?

  147. jacksquat August 14th, 2012 at 11:47 am

    trisha – true pinstriped blue August 14th, 2012 at 11:40 am
    Jerkface – can you set up this equation for me? 1/3 is to 120 as 1/2 is to?

    I’m sure I could puzzle it out but I know you can do it without thinking twice.

    180

  148. blake August 14th, 2012 at 11:50 am

    “kinda belies the verducci rule doesn’t it?”

    Maybe they are special dudes with special genetics…….somebody should invent a genetic testing for pitchers and only draft guys with 80 shoulders and elbows.

  149. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 11:50 am

    Y’s-

    Just because you can find exceptions does not mean the rule is totally invalid.

    I think of it more as a guideline than an absolute “Rule”.

    In that sense, I think it works.

    Certainly seems to work more than having no plan.

    ;)

  150. blake August 14th, 2012 at 11:50 am

    “Is he due for a clunker ?”

    Nope….Hiro!

  151. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 11:54 am

    Blake-

    You know as well as I do that the act of Pitching itself is unnatural motion.

    The cleaner the mechanics, the greater the genetic endowment, and the more gradual the preparation the better the chances of avoiding injury are.

    Some argue for “body-type” but big guys succumb as well.

    And little guys sometimes do just fine.

    The selection process is fraught with error.

  152. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    thats 3 of the best pitchers in the game, none of them have had surgery since.

    Verlander had dead arm a year after.

  153. Hassey August 14th, 2012 at 11:55 am

    even id he is only able to go 3 innngs, I think we should start Lowe in one of the Sox games because, well, just because. Pour some salt deep, deep into the wounds

  154. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 11:57 am

    i didnt try to find exceptions, i went for the best pitchers in baseball, the only one i looked at that didnt fit was lee.

    at this point, all the theories about pitching development are just theories and none of them have been shown to prevent injuries or produce success any more than they produce injuries and failure.

    im all good with caution and consistency and gradually incrasing innings, but i think when a guy is ready to face major league hitters, you bring them up and have them face major league hitters. i dont think it matters if they are starting or relieving, the development comes from facing the best hitters on the planet.

  155. blake August 14th, 2012 at 11:57 am

    MTU,

    I wonder if 20 years from now they will be doing like bone density, cartilage quality etc tests on players before drafting them and stuff…….i agree on the mechanics …..but there has to be a better way to medically predict injury.

  156. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 11:59 am

    “Verlander had dead arm a year after.”
    ——————–

    he pitched 200 innings the next season and he seems to have gotten over it.

  157. Hassey August 14th, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    Blake – I think they’ll also want to see the medical records of guys’ parents and grandparents to predict longevity, potential problems at various ages, and probability of siring future successful LOOGYs

  158. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    he pitched 200 innings the next season and he seems to have gotten over it.

    He had a near 5 ERA and lost 5 mph off his fastball. Shouldn’t teams be trying to get the most possible out of their pitchers while under team control?

  159. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    Blake-

    Guys like Marshall are trying to provide scientific clues but they are still thought of as way out of the mainstream.

    I have often thought that we should have someone who helps with “injury prevention”.

    The more science is brought into the selection process the better off we will be.

    As it stands now there is a huge amount of risk with young arms.

    The things you mention certainly could be part of improving the odds.

  160. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    i forgot that a 25 year old pitcher’s development is supposed to be a straight line going straight up.

  161. blake August 14th, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    “He had a near 5 ERA and lost 5 mph off his fastball.”

    His avg fastball velocity in 2007 was 94.8. In 2008 it was 93.6 and in 2009 it was 95.6.

  162. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    i forgot that a 25 year old pitcher’s development is supposed to be a straight line going straight up.

    Shouldn’t that be the goal? :) Isn’t the goal to have upwards momentum of development? To not lose entire years to poor performance / injury? Isn’t that why these teams develop these programs?

  163. blake August 14th, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    MTU,

    Yea….its a mystery right now…..best course of action is to draft Verlanders and Sabathias

  164. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    His avg fastball velocity in 2007 was 94.8. In 2008 it was 93.6 and in 2009 it was 95.6.

    I was exaggerating a little bit but if you look at his velocity charts he barely exceeded 95 mph that year in most starts. Check the graph http://www.fangraphs.com/pitch.....8;pitch=FA

  165. blake August 14th, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    ” Isn’t that why these teams develop these programs?”

    It is…..but I dont know that there is much evidence these programs actually work. To me it just seems more either luck or purely more physical durability defines who gets hurt and who doesnt……

  166. randy l. August 14th, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    “You know as well as I do that the act of Pitching itself is unnatural motion.”

    mtu-

    not necessarily .

    there is a theory by william calvin that through natural selection driving the process the human brain became twice as big by throwing rocks at prey and killing from a distance.

    ” But what selective pressures conserved those useful gene combinations for sequencer lateralization and bigger brains, so that there would be even more in the next generation?
    Throwing has big advantages over the other candidates. First, the “new niche effect”: an immediate and fairly dramatic payoff in improved life-style, enabling new prey to be eaten with minimal risk, and the consequent ability of the species to expand into new habitats such as plains with lots of rabbits but no fruit trees.
    Second is the “fast ball effect”: the muscle sequencer should have had a tendency to operate faster and faster. That’s because higher-velocity projectiles would result in greater throwing range, better stopping power, and less time for the prey to react to the approaching rock. But once a short computation time becomes important–and more efficient hunting selects for it– you need some very fancy timing circuits. Maybe the brain reorganized itself to provide it, or maybe bigger brains in the next generation survived better.”

    http://williamcalvin.com/bk2/bk2ch4.htm

  167. Ys Guy August 14th, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    here’s the thing about the verducci rule, its good info but it’s backwards looking. he looked back and what already happened and tried to find something that tied them together. that is great work but by its very nature it just tells you what happened with a little hint of maybe why.

    in fact it’s the baseball equivalent of the guy who goes to the doctor and says ‘doc it hurts when i do this’ and the doctor says, then dont do that.

    the results verducci found dont address the question of why, which is the key to the kingdom.

  168. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    Blake-

    a riddle wrapped up in an enigma inside of a puzzle as part of a mystery.

    :)

  169. Jerkface August 14th, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    not necessarily .

    What you’ve posted does not refute MTU. The act of pitching can both be an unnatural motion AND be something that helped early human develop. The fact is the human body was not designed to throw things really hard without breaking down. Just like humans were not designed to eat clams, but we figured out a way.

  170. blake August 14th, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    Kinda why I think itll be nuts if the Nats dont pitch Strasburg in the playoffs……there is no legit evidence that shutting him down at aome arbitrary innings number will keep him from getting hurt……and the Nats may never even make the playoffs again before hes a FA

  171. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    Randy-

    Sometimes the opposite is true and the brain gets smaller when rocks are throw at it.

    But I get your drift.

    :)

  172. MTU August 14th, 2012 at 12:17 pm

    There’s a new thread over yonder —–>

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