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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Bullpen uncertainty: The impact of Joba Chamberlain

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Aug 30, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Joba Chamberlain’s pitch to Yunel Escobar looked like a pretty good one last night. It was a high fastball, 95 mph with a 2-2 count. Chamberlain was clearly trying to get Escobar to chase a pitch up and out of the zone, and Escobar did chase. It wasn’t the kind of pitch that hitters usually do much with if they hit it at all, and Escobar didn’t hit it especially well, but it dropped into right field – going in and out of Andruw Jones’ glove — for a two-run single.

“You make your pitch, stuff happens and you go on,” Chamberlain said. “You can’t let it fester.”

Chamberlain didn’t pitch all that poorly last night, but the result was familiar: Another letdown that let a winable game get out of reach. Obviously Chamberlain has not been a go-to reliever for the Yankees this season, but he brings considerable uncertainty because the team lacks better options.

With Chamberlain limited to low-leverage situations — or forced into high-leverage situations when no one else is available — the Yankees bullpen is essentially down to six pitchers, two of whom are strictly left-on-left and right-on-right specialists, and one of whom is the only true multi-inning guy available. They can only lean on Boone Logan, Dave Robertson and Rafael Soriano so much. Chamberlain was supposed to provide some late-season support, but it hasn’t happened yet, and now the team seems to be avoiding him at all costs.

“I have to continue to get out there to prove to them and prove to my teammates and everyone else that the ability is there to get people out,” he said. “Obviously it hasn’t been great, but this is obviously a start.”

It is a start, and it’s hard to place too much blame on a guy who’s coming back from two surgeries and pitching for the first time in more than a year. Chamberlain works hard, but he needs innings to find consistency, and without consistency, it’s hard to give him innings. It’s hard to know what to expect when he gets in a game. The velocity is there, but the results aren’t.

“It’s just getting in there,” Chamberlain said. “It doesn’t matter the situation. You have to go out there and be better.”

Associated Press photo

 
 

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158 Responses to “Bullpen uncertainty: The impact of Joba Chamberlain”

  1. fantasygame101 August 30th, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    The minors is where he can get innings and repetition. His outing in the minors is not whether he can get them out but how consistent are his pitches, are they good enough to get big league batters.

  2. RMS August 30th, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    You need solid pitching to win in the post season.

    CC-not having one of his better years
    Kuroda-#1 on this staff
    Phelps-will he start?
    Hughes-needs to continue stepping up
    Nova-not pitching well
    Andy-he has been sorely missed. A big game pitcher, can he come back?

  3. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    No worries, Pineda will ride in on his white horse and save the day.

  4. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    Joba just ain’t relief material :D

  5. Ys Guy August 30th, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    joba was fine last night. if jones breaks right on that ball, its a can of corn and maybe the runner doesnt even go from third. the hbp would have allowed a run in anyway, so you can pin one run on him but that’s it.

    he’s going to get a little better the more innings he gets and he’s going to work his way into the good graces of joe g. and high-leverage portion of the bullpen by the end of the season.

  6. mick August 30th, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    Who will Nova come back as
    Will Andy be ready

    Those questions are much more critical than whether a starter goes to the pen over an experienced reliever.
    ====================================
    All of that influences whether a starter goes to the pen and who the 3rd or 4th starter will be.

  7. Ys Guy August 30th, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    joba posted a 1.04 whip last year. that is bullpen material.

  8. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Jones is playing on knees with rends in them, apparently. A guy like that does not forget how to field. I doubt he’s going to refuse to play, so it’s up to the GM and manager to figure out that the guy is not serviceable.

    Joba needs to go back into the rotation next season.

  9. mick August 30th, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    I don’t mind Joba earning a spot in the pen but I don’t want it at the expense of someone who could help us more.

  10. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    Sure, so is David Price, and Verlander, etc. Price flat out refused to be a bullpen guy, even in the short term. Joba just needs his agent to lay down the law to Cashman. My guy’s playing for a contract – he’s starting.

  11. Benny Blanco August 30th, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    JAP,

    I’m not making a declaration of any kind. I’m not a prospect hugger and I certainly value patience when it comes to prospects. However, there are a few (not you) that automatically assume certain prospects are “can’t miss.”

    I’m just as frustrated like any other yankee fan when it comes to Dellin and Manban. You could make a legitimate case that the two of them could be helping the yankees now if they weren’t injured and met there inning requirements.

  12. Ys Guy August 30th, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    agreed, mick. im looking for joba to force himself into the conversation as the last few weeks go by. competition is a good thing.

  13. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    Both guys can get outs but neither has had enough innings, despite Betances’ years in the system (was out 2009 and didn’t pitch much in some other seasons). They both need to build up their arms. Manny, needless to say, needs to get his health back. I don’t like them hand waving “tendinitis” on Betances, either. Shut him down. He still has next season.

  14. mick August 30th, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    competition is a good thing.
    ==================
    indeed. it is girardis creed. as with the 6 man staff last year he will audition now for October.
    this is really a crucial month , not only a pennant drive, but a time to build momentum and get hot with all the regulars healthy. who the 4th starter and the last man in the pen is, are the finishing touches.

  15. mick August 30th, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    i thought the whole joba is a starter thing was ancient history.

  16. RMS August 30th, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    . Joba just needs his agent to lay down the law to Cashman. My guy’s playing for a contract – he’s starting.

    ————————————————————————————–
    Because Joba is playing for a contract, Cashman is going to have him start? Joba’s agent will demand nothing from Cashman. Joba is not a star, far from it at this point in his career.

  17. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    I’m frustrated too, but not because I expect these guys to just convert automatically. What frustrates me is the Yankees’ self-imposed “pressure to win now”, which is crap. They’ve wasted more resources due to their own impatience – not the fans’. The fans boo Chamberlain off the mound in 2009 when he coughs it up in those abbreviated innings (what CC and Pettitte out loud said were poor conditions for anyone to learn to pitch out of) and they fold their tent on him. Thank goodness they showed some stick-to-it-ness with Hughes. Whether that’s Cashman’s undernourished ego at play or not, I don’t care. I get to see Hughes evolve.

  18. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    Joba is one of the brightest options the Yankees have for the rotation next season. No one said he was a “star,” what he is a four pitch guy who is 26 and should be starting.

  19. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    And Cashman should have him start because he gives them a potential plus arm in the rotation. Theoretically, it’s Cashman’s job to improve the team.

  20. mykyl1 August 30th, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    Anyone see Mike and Mike this morn? Guest star L. T. the registered sex offfender. ESPN who is all over Penn State made a hero out of this guy. I am shocked and ashamed for Greeni as he kissed LT’s butt. How Hypocritical is that. If it is for ratings its cool to ignore the obvious

  21. theREALkevin August 30th, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    Chad, you need to do better research. The pitch to Escobar was supposed to be on the outside corner. Joba missed his spot horribly and the pitch ended up being way high and inside. Joba was NOT trying to go high out of the zone. I mean, do you even watch the game?

    Joba has been awful. He was not “fine” or “OK” the other day. He’s missing his location in brutal fashion time after time and it’s costing him. He’s not even close to right. His stuff is still good but he has to do a better job locating or he’s going to keep allowing base runners and runs.

  22. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    I’ve been consumed with work and didn’t really get to see Chamberlain’s outing. The kid has been off the mound for quite a while. Maybe expecting him to snap into routine is asking a bit much.

  23. RMS August 30th, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    what he is a four pitch guy who is 26 and should be starting.

    ——————————————————————————————–
    Since you want Joba to start, how many innings is he going to pitch? He threw 157 innings in 2009. After that his innings went steadily down. You think he will have an innings limit? I do.

    Yanks should have made him a SP or RP. They didn’t seem to know what they wanted him to be. I say, pick one and leave him there.

  24. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    MA: Could you foresee guys coming up from Tampa at the end of the year up here? This team is a little thin right now…

    Newman: “Yeah, that’s possible. Tampa’s still in it, so we’ll worry about that when it happens. The thing that’s going to drive all this is call-ups in New York on September 1st. We’re not sure what that’s going to be, but that affects…we’ve got right Scranton right now, these guys have a good chance, Tampa’s got a chance. If all three of them in the playoffs, that could get hairy.”

    _____
    J-Ram to Trenton, please. :)

  25. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    Is Cash serious about Alex being back Monday vs. Tampa?

  26. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    “pcaldera Brian Cashman not saying it’s likely or unlikely, but “I guess it’s possible” that A-Rod could be in the Yanks’ lineup Monday @ Tampa Bay.”

  27. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    Joba’s location is definitely off right now. He’s got a month to get it together. But the more he pitches the better. It’d be nice if we could get him some more low leverage innings… Low leverage? What is that? :roll:

  28. luis August 30th, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    Good evening guys,

    Primo!! You have been missed!! Good posts as usual. Got to go, but it sure is nice to see you posting aroung

  29. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    RMS August 30th, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    . Joba just needs his agent to lay down the law to Cashman. My guy’s playing for a contract – he’s starting.

    ——————–

    The only way Joba starts is if he plays for another team.

  30. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    Yes they’ll have to build him up, but with guys like Montgomery in the system, there’s no need for Chamberlain to spend a superfluous Yankee future in the bullpen. He’s still quite young, and we saw what his potential is from 2008. Have him prepare to start.

  31. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    Primo! You slippery fellow! :D .

    Come back and chat sometime, will ya? Missed ya too, buddy.

  32. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    Yanks should have made him a SP or RP. They didn’t seem to know what they wanted him to be. I say, pick one and leave him there.

    ————————–

    That was the biggest mistake they tried to do both in the same yr 3 yrs in a row smh.

  33. RayVT August 30th, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    Let’s see! Pearce batting 4th or a rusty ARod batting 4th! I’d let ARod get his cuts needed at the MLB level & not the MiLB level. LOL!

  34. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    Odds :D

    We’ll have to wait and see. He’s a better starter than reliever, IMO.

  35. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    Yankeefem – Jo-Ram in Trenton :drools:

  36. luis August 30th, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    RMS,

    Two things.. He is 26, so the risky threshold of injury has passed.. Second, he will be a 5th starter, which means going somewhere around 160 innings, he has done that before. He should be an option for the rotation next season.

    You are right though, that the messing around with his role didn’t help much.

  37. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    Odds, I’m hoping Joba outlasts Cashman as a Yankee, but the way things are going, it might be because Eppler replaces him…

  38. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    primo, how can anyone take Cashman and his pitching mantra seriously, if they don’t put Chamberlain back where he belongs, and where his value would be highest. Not holding my breath, however.

  39. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    Odds, I’m hoping Joba outlasts Cashman as a Yankee, but the way things are going, it might be because Eppler replaces him…

    ——————————

    You would have to wish on every star in the sky. Cashman wants to this his design through the end. I would bet everything I have on him being here longer than Joba.

  40. blake August 30th, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    Im not sure why anybody would expect Joba to be great given that hes coming off two very seriois injuries and hes really not gotten to pitch consistently enough to find any sort of command.

    Yea they probably should have given him more league time…..but the big league pen needed help and they rushed him hoping he coukd help……now the minor league season is almost over and there isnt much time for that…..and the race is too close to put him in a lot of games at the big leagie level.

  41. luis August 30th, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    Slippery? Come on man! ;) I am not the one who had banished from the blog ;) Great to see you around, but now I have to go. Come friday I think I will some more time in my hands. Later

  42. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    Pruf, you seen Bird yet? I am hoping to make it out there Wed. if I can. Too bad that SI isn’t making the playoffs. Feliciano is pitching there tomorrow. Tyanks gets Alex starting tomorrow. I ‘m sure she will shoot some video.

    Trenton could use some pitching. Love to see J-Ram or as per 2010 playoffs, Pettitte there in a rehab playoff start.

  43. igotid88 August 30th, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    I hope Alex comes back on Sunday when I’m there. If the Yankees lose the first 2 and don’t have run production in those games. It could happen. Even if he goes 0-8 in his rehab.

  44. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    He should be an option for the rotation next season.

    ————————

    That’s the tact they should take make him an option not a lock to make the rotation. They need bodies next yr more than anything and we all know they aren’t spending money on starters this off season. Anyway this is kinda meaningless since they aren’t going to let him start.

  45. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    Sure, Odds, I agree. The ownership really doesn’t really know the difference between Cashman and anyone else. My biggest errors in judgment were being a staunch Cashman supporter and favoring Girardi over Mattingly.

  46. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    RayVT good point. I’ll even take the ARod watered down vs. of the .882 OPS vs. LHP. We are that desperate.

  47. igotid88 August 30th, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    If Joba starts next year he will have to throw in one of the winter leagues or something.

  48. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    Yea they probably should have given him more league time…..but the big league pen needed help and they rushed him hoping he coukd help

    ————————

    Basically what they did 5 yrs ago. Joba has caused some of his own short comings in major league baseball but since he came up in 07 they haven’t handled him right. Everything they did before then was good.

  49. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    watered down *version, that should read.

  50. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Pruf, sounds like if not for the injury, Dellin would have played winter ball.

  51. randy l. August 30th, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    this was one of my better calls.
    or luckier :)

    “there’s an unusual mixture of management and coaching personnel with the orioles.
    duquette, showalter, and rick peterson is a very interesting mix. maybe it will blow up because duquette used to be a total a hole but he did lay the ground work for the red sox world series teams.
    showalter and peterson both have their resumes of success.
    my inner psychic baseball quiji board says watch out for them ”
    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/201...../#comments

    but seriously, petersen and showalter and duquette- that’s some serious baseball personalities. it was ether going to blow up or be very creative.

  52. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    My biggest errors in judgment were being a staunch Cashman supporter and favoring Girardi over Mattingly.

    —————————–

    We all make mistakes ;)

  53. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    yankeefem – have not seen Bird, just have read about him. I have been all over the tri-state area in the past few weeks, living out of a suitcase. I never thought, when I attended SI’s season opener, that I might not get to see those kids again this year. I thought that was the first of many. Kind of glad to have the distraction: this has been one of the least inspiring baseball seasons in memory. Jeter, though, is always worth watching, as are the young pitchers. I will just sit back and hope they do something, but I’m not counting on it.

  54. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    “Anyway this is kinda meaningless since they aren’t going to let him start.”
    ___
    If we can saying it, it just may happen. Ya never know…

  55. igotid88 August 30th, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    I get the feeling that if Hughes has four 20 win seasons. There’ll still be people saying he needs to pitch better. And have a 47 year old Andy Pettitte pitch game 3 over him and have him battle for the 4th spot with a rookie.

  56. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    My biggest errors in judgment were being a staunch Cashman supporter and favoring Girardi over Mattingly.

    —————————–

    We all make mistakes ;)
    ///

    I did not realize how literal minded they were in their saber leanings. I actually welcomed advanced metrics as part of their toolshed for evaluations, I never thought they had nothing to augment that stuff with. They are worse than Theo in his “run prevention” year. It’s been a nightmare – not so much in terms of what they will or won’t do this season, but the realization that this is the way they think…

    Mattingly, I wish the very best to. Always loved and respected him as a player, I just had this idea that Girardi would be cutting edge, that, ironically, he’d be the guy to really mentor guys like Montero and Sanchez. I wanted him around, too, for the young pitching.

  57. blake August 30th, 2012 at 6:42 pm

    Personally I think they should keep pitching Joba….he hasnt been good but his stuff is close and he has a chance to get better with more tine…..Eppley and Lowe are badly and likely to stay bad.

    The Yanks need another plus arm besides Robertson and Soriano…..if they arent making a trade and they arent going to try Montgomery then the only other option to me is to keep throwing Joba out there and hope he finds it in time.

  58. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    igotid,

    He’s pitching very well, his time has arrived. What stupid people think or say, forget about. Enjoy his success. Just a thought ;)

  59. RayVT August 30th, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    Mattingly wasn’t ready when they chose Girardi. The real mistake was letting Torre go when they did. They should have given him a farewell tour (1-yr) & then brought in Mattingly.

    Cashman kind of reminds me of the Cowboy’s owner, he intrudes in areas of little expertise and tinkers. Joba rules, Wang, Hughes, etc. It just seems systemic when it comes to hurting Pitchers. (Not as bad as the Blue Jays mind you but close.)

  60. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    “Anyway this is kinda meaningless since they aren’t going to let him start.”
    ___
    If we can saying it, it just may happen. Ya never know…

    ————

    Maybe but it hasn’t happened yet. His best chance was in 2011 when they had guys like Garcia and Colon getting starts in the rotation

  61. blake August 30th, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    I dont see Girardi as a problem……I actually think hes been great this year……he doesnt have a ton to work with here and thats not his fault.

    Woukd I rather have Mattingley? Does it annoy meto hear hiw the Dodgers pkayers would run throufh a wall for him? Sure……but it is what it is and I think Joe does a pretty good job….especially this year with this group of stars mixed with scrubs.

  62. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    They should try Montgomery. It’s not like he’s a guy who has to worry about seeing guys 3 and 4 times through a lineup. When I saw him pitch, he located his fastball well on both sides of the plate and his slider was really good. They’re conservative, though, and there is the 40-man thing.

  63. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    I agree that they should keep pitching Joba. Just pick your spots and evaluate as you go.

  64. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    Blake-

    I wouldn’t keep throwing Joba out there when he is not commanding the baseball. It’s gonna cost games. Games they can’t afford to lose.

    It’s a chicken or egg problem.

    He needs innings to get better but unless he’s better he shouldn’t get innings.

    They should have sent him down when they had a chance.

    Very few guys come back effective right away after what JC has been thru. It’s not Joba’s fault.

    Just as an example. It took Joe Nathan a year to regain his command.

    How could the Yankee brass ever think otherwise.

    Poor planning, or as you say desperation.

  65. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    Cashman kind of reminds me of the Cowboy’s owner, he intrudes in areas of little expertise and tinkers. Joba rules, Wang, Hughes, etc. It just seems systemic when it comes to hurting Pitchers. (Not as bad as the Blue Jays mind you but close.)

    —————————-

    It’s almost as if he’s throwing darts at a board when it comes to this pitching philosophy. And he gets so bent out of shape when ppl say they haven’t developed starters. Then he starts pulling out names like Kennedy and Karstens. Isn’t it a bad thing when you name pitchers that no longer pitch for the club?

  66. igotid88 August 30th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    Joba was never going to be a full time bullpen guy. He was only brought up in ’07 because he was nearing towards his innings limit for that year. And they decided to have him use it up here in the pen. At the time they were talking about how he had good makeup. And a really good fastball. Having a great season in the pen is what hurt his chances as a starter. He wouldn’t have been given enough time. Which is what almost happened to Hughes.

  67. RayVT August 30th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    Just think where the Yanks would be if they hadn’t signed Soriano which BTW was against Cashman’s will!

  68. blake August 30th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    And Re: Cashman ……I just have a hard time evaluating him because I dont know hiw.much power he really has and what Hal will approve him to do…..I speculate that his hands are somewhat tied…..

  69. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    . There’ll still be people saying he needs to pitch better.

    ————————-

    No one would say that about Hughes

  70. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Girardi though is saddled with scrubs because he and Cashman share a philosophy that dismisses anything but OPS. He’s helped mold the philosopher’s stone that has him doing an admirable job with “scrubs.” He’s part of the problem, IMO.

    The Dodgers, OTOH, went out and got more bats to complement Kemp. Good for them. I hate the Dodgers, and always will, but hell, good for them, and good for Mattingly, who understands the value of good, in-prime hitters.

  71. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Blake-

    Blame it all on Bud Selig.

    ;)

  72. blake August 30th, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    “I wouldn’t keep throwing Joba out there when he is not commanding the baseball. It’s gonna cost games. Games they can’t afford to lose.”

    But Eppley and Lowe are costing them games too….and my poi t is that Joba might get better with more innings……those guys most likely wont.

  73. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    igotid, cherishing slights will make you sad ;) . No one smart is saying Hughes sucks.

  74. blake August 30th, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    “The Dodgers, OTOH, went out and got more bats to complement Kemp. Good for them”

    Thats their owner though……dont you think Ned Colletti would have neen doig this last year if his owner would have let him?

  75. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    McElroy behind center… thrilling. Giving the starters a blow before the season starts, I guess.

  76. The Return of Stoneburner August 30th, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    It’s the mainstream Yankee fan – not the prospect observers who actually take that pulse – who need a lesson in patience with prospects.

    Brian Cashman is another one who needs the lesson.

    ***********

    http://www.baseball-reference......ph01.shtml

  77. igotid88 August 30th, 2012 at 6:53 pm

    I think most of us were against having 2 bullpen guys making over $13 million.

  78. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    blake, that’s a good point, but have you heard the rhetoric from Cashman and Girardi? Their words embrace what this team looks like and this team looks like this because that’s what they prioritized. Both show a reckless disregard for the need for young or in prime, real hitters. Sorry, there’s nothing ambiguous about it. Cashman harps on and on about certain stats without any kind of qualifiers. It’s just weird. Girardi was not faking when he crowed about the rotating DH: he was thrilled, he might have rubbed his hands together when he said it. That’s who they are. I would prefer a management team with a less narrow idea of success.

  79. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    I just have a hard time evaluating him because I dont know hiw.much power he really has and what Hal will approve him to do

    ———————

    But he’s is operating the way he wants them too. How many times have we heard: Cashman is upset ppl think he’s only good because the Yankees have money

  80. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Having a great season in the pen is what hurt his chances as a starter. He wouldn’t have been given enough time. Which is what almost happened to Hughes.
    ////

    You’re right, and it just goes to show how uncreative they are. They got this instant sensation and they didn’t really want to give up that buzz, even though they came out with a lot of tough talk. What’s slightly remarkable is, they just forgot about how well that man pitched as a starter in 2008. It seems many fans forgot, too.

  81. RayVT August 30th, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    blake August 30th, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    Although I was against Joe G being the Manager, I find little fault in his managing. I just prefer Mattingly over him

    Cashman’s ego is really over the top. I mean really stating that he wasn’t surprised about Colon or Melky just made me angry. He is a limelight seeker in a very dim room!

  82. The Return of Stoneburner August 30th, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    Both show a reckless disregard for the need for young or in prime, real hitters.

    *******

    Going into 2012, the following hitters were still considered to be in their prime: Cano, Swisher, Gardner, and Granderson. They also gave a shot to Nunez, who is young to be on the bench.

    http://www.baseballprospectus......cleid=9933

  83. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    Blake-

    I’m not as convinced as you that Joba is an upgrade from the other two.

    The liklelyhood is not in his favor.

    They should try to identify someone else.

  84. blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    JAP,

    I think there is some truth to that…..but in the end I think it all comes back to Hal …….its his team and I bet hes pulling more strings than we realize.

  85. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 7:02 pm

    They got this instant sensation and they didn’t really want to give up that buzz,

    —————————–

    It’s more of an indictment on Cashman. No reliable relievers on the roster or in the farm at the time

  86. blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    “Cashman’s ego is really over the top. I mean really stating that he wasn’t surprised about Colon or Melky just made me angry.”

    Someone surgically removed his filter about two years ago…..

  87. RayVT August 30th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:03 pm

    How true! Sad but true!

  88. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    The Yankees are no longer able to buy their way out of trouble.

    Hal has seen to that w. 189.

    Gonna be that way thru 2014.

    Trades are the only potential salvation.

  89. blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    MTU,

    I think fhey should try Montgomery…..they shoukdnt be worried about a reliever’s development and if hes got the arm and stuff everyone says he does then they should try him…..

    But aside from hin where else are they getting the arm they need? Its not Eppley……its still in Joba somewhere…..Id rather see him try to find it than to keep throwing journeyman and matchups out there that arent working either.

  90. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    Cashman prescribes too much to formulaic saber stats and a run prevention mentality.

  91. blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Anothe guy Id try as a short reliever when he comes back……Ivan Nova…..just for the rest of the year……he can K guys….

  92. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Not me blake.

    I’m into whoever can help us win games. I don’t see Joba as that right now either.

    I agree with you on MM but I doubt the Yankees will unfortunately.

    Maybe Newman will invoke his “all hands on deck” mentality and convince Cashman.

  93. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    ..and tries to balance that with SLG.

  94. blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    “Cashman prescribes too much to formulaic saber stats and a run prevention mentality.”

    That does seem to be the case…..

  95. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    Blake-

    I’d give Warren another shot too.

    He might be much more effective in relief ?

  96. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    prescribes too much formulaic saber stats and a run prevention mentality.

    ———————

    Isn’t that what the Red Sox did in 2006

  97. mick August 30th, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    Next year they could have CC-Kuroda-Hughes-Nova + Phelps and Andy.
    Where would Joba fit in?
    Good chance they can get something for him from a team that still would like to give him a starting shot.

  98. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    Mick-

    You’re forgetting Pineda mid-season next year.

    ;)

  99. blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    “I’m into whoever can help us win games. I don’t see Joba as that right now either.”

    Who is though? If not Joba then who? Thats the question……

  100. blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Warren’s stuff isnt in the same ballpark as Jobas…..Id try Nova if nothing else.

  101. mick August 30th, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Pineda and maybe a player to be named later MTU.

  102. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    Blake-

    We named some possibilities.

    Nova, Warren, MM.

    If you make me GM instead of Director of Entertainment I’ll see what I can do.

    Until then that’s all I got.

    ;)

  103. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    Cashman’s ego is really over the top. I mean really stating that he wasn’t surprised about Colon or Melky just made me angry. He is a limelight seeker in a very dim room!
    ///

    I agree wholeheartedly, and what’s even more irksome is the lack of class he has shown in his disturbing trend of taking shots at ex Yankees.

    According to people here who get things right, I was told Cashman referred to Ian Kennedy as “an NL pitcher.” C’mon. That makes me wince. Just what? The guy has success, and, unlike Mark Newman and David Aldred, who wished him well and were happy for him, Cashman has to say something as demeaning as that? Does he think it doesn’t reflect badly on the pinstripes, that he’s so spiteful?

    Melky hits .350, and suddenly Kevin Long is alluding to a drinking problem when he was here. We get it: we knew he was good, but he was a reprobate. Now, he gets busted for testosterone, and he’s “I’m not surprised – we had his ceiling as fourth OF.”

    Is Cashman just stupid? If testosterone could turn .270 hitters into .350 hitters, the game would be littered with them; a guy hits over .300 from both sides of the plate for two years running, and you’re going to say the PED gave him a suddenly awesome hit tool, from both sides of the plate? Mattingly had a different slant on it: he said ‘I wasn’t surprised that Melky hit .300. Always thought he was a good young player.” But Cashman must always seek to prop himself up, to discredit in order to justify what he has done.

    Worse: he tells Derek Jeter to go out and shop it. I mean, this is what he says publicly. He says Posada’s “the DH, unless he plays himself off it,” and then he proceeds to try an humiliate him on national television against the Yankees’ biggest rival.

    Cashman does not represent the Yankees well. He’s a disgrace to the pinstripes.

  104. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    Mick-

    You’re tryin’ to trade Pineda next year ?

  105. mick August 30th, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    If they get a pitcher to be named later, don’t know what FA’s are out there, but a 1 year deal like Kuroda’s could get done, and not only Joba but Nova could be gone.
    We could prolly get good return for 2 guys under control but won’t be soon enough.

  106. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    Blake-

    Warren’s stuff in int he same park because he knows where the plate is.

    I think you’re underestimating him.

  107. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    He’s a disgrace to the pinstripes.

    ———————–

    I wouldn’t go that far but he has taken a strange tact over the past few yrs.

  108. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 7:16 pm

    To boot: he’s just traded for a young pitcher coming off a great rookie season. The guy hasn’t even thrown a pitch for the Yankees, and Cashman is already taking a pre-emptive strike in case his deal goes awry, warning that if the guy doesn’t develop a change up, the deal will have been a mistake…. Great way to welcome the new guy…he’s….lost.

  109. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 7:17 pm

    Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 7:09 pm
    prescribes too much formulaic saber stats and a run prevention mentality.

    ———————

    Isn’t that what the Red Sox did in 2006
    ____
    Cash has himself said that he was mentored by Theo. Scary thought. I didn’t realize how prescriptive he was until recently based on some of the things he has said over the past year. He really sticks to the saber partyline. And an outdated one to boot.

  110. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    Blake-

    If Warren were to simplify his approach like Hughes did he might be very effective out of the Pen.

    He throws hard, has good 2ndary offerings, and decent control.

    That might just be better than what Joba can offer at this time.

  111. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    Cash has himself said that he was mentored by Theo.

    ————————-

    The student schools the teacher. He did indeed follow what the Red Sox were doing because he saw how much it worked for the time being.

  112. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    Well, Theo dumped the cowboy up crew though, and his new toy, run prevention at the cost of offense, failed miserably.

  113. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    a pre-emptive strike in case his deal goes awry, warning that if the guy doesn’t develop a change up, the deal will have been a mistake

    —————-

    That was weird you don’t really hear that from a GM after a trade. Maybe he just feels like the new ownership gives him a chance to be honest and speak his mind

  114. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    Team greedy votes for getting rid of Martin, and bringing in a young 5-tool OF’er in the OS.

  115. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    Cashman prescribes too much to formulaic saber stats and a run prevention mentality.
    ////

    Right, and this isn’t some little side nuisance, this is how they create their Yankee model. That’s a problem.

    Girardi may handle the bullpen well, rest players, and have his pitchers throw inside, but Girardi also managed an ALDS like it was a game in June. I’m not going to throw flowers at Girardi for his managing.

  116. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    I’ll be happy if Scioscia gets the boot.

    :)

  117. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    Well, Theo dumped the cowboy up crew though, and his new toy, run prevention at the cost of offense, failed miserably.
    ///

    ….and this is Brian Cashman’s role model.

  118. blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:24 pm

    MTU,

    Warren is a Tarheel so you know I love him but he just doesn’t have the same sort of stuff Joba does….doesnt have the velocity….doesn’t have the same depth and velocity on his slider etc…..now that doesn’t help Joba if he can’t command the ball….but I would want to find out if he can find it because IMO he has the sort of ability they need right now…..

    Theo actually is more of a Cashman clone than the other way around…..though Cash has admitted to stealing a few ideas from Theo

  119. blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    Team greedy says to trade for Joe Mauer and then get rid of Martin :)

  120. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    Blake-

    Guess we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on that one.

    But I hope you’re right.

    :)

  121. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    Team greedy votes for getting rid of Martin, and bringing in a young 5-tool OF’er in the OS.
    ///

    Keep dreamin’. They’re in love with Russ and his “athleticism.”

  122. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    FTR, I would not use Warren out of the bullpen.

  123. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    Warren doesn’t have the K’s. Only 6.31/9 and his breaking stuff can be inconsistent, esp. his CB. Not really swing and miss stuff.

  124. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:28 pm

    JAP-

    You know I will.

    Do I ever stop ?

    It’s what makes life worthwhile.

    Take away a Man’s dreams and you’ve vaporized their soul.

    You ought to know that.

    So yes Martin will be gone.

    ;)

  125. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    I’m outvoted on Warren.

    :(

  126. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    Sorry, MTU. Not seeing him in the pen b/c not enough K’s and better vs. lefties… Prefer a better righty split out of the pen.

  127. mick August 30th, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    If Joba can develop the confidence of Phelps it would go a long way in his development.
    Come right at the hitters and stop nibbling.
    With his purported stuff, why does he have trouble getting through the 5th under 100 pitches?
    Phelps gets to the 7th under 100 pitches. He doesn’t nibble. Explain that one….
    Joba had swagger when he came up as Phelps does now.
    Listen to Joba postgame and he intellectualizes his game away much like IPK did.
    Phelps is like CC- they don’t parse words, they tell it like it is, short and sweet, sort of like their approach to pitching.
    Clean not sloppy. Efficient.

  128. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    If Joba can develop the confidence of Phelps it would go a long way in his development.

    ———————–

    He used to have that confidence where did it go.

  129. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    YF-

    I’m just tryin’ to help.

    But I failed.

    By the way, Mrs. MTU is on sabbatical from yours truly and went to the GFS today.

    Of course, she loved it.

  130. blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    If I were Cash and Girardi I would bring a select group of guys in and say look…we need a shut down short reliever and you guys have one month to prove to pus who belongs on the postnseason roster as the bridge to the 8th inning….

    Bring in Montgomery…..nova,,.Joba….Warren etc…..best Man wins and if none of those guys step up then just let Phelps do it come october as he might be the best option anyway

  131. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    Mick-

    Ill take a stab at it.

    Phelps has terrific command of pitches.

    Joba doesn’t. Especially now after his TJS.

  132. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    Joba doesn’t. Especially now after his TJS.

    ————————-

    And yet they decided after a few rehab games he’s ready to go

  133. RayVT August 30th, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    I concur!

  134. mick August 30th, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    He used to have that confidence where did it go.
    ============================
    It went to the same place his electric stuff went.

  135. Ys Guy August 30th, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    im taking joba one outing at a time. yesterday was better than the previous, hopefully his next is better than that.

  136. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    I love pitchers who throw strikes and don’t hurt themselves.

    Phelps is such a Pitcher.

  137. mick August 30th, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    And yet they decided after a few rehab games he’s ready to go
    =====================
    They treat him like a rented mule.
    Funny thing is, they will prolly get something worthwhile for him in the OS to a team that will want to start him.

  138. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    AAO-

    That is on them. Not on Joba.

  139. Ys Guy August 30th, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    he’s still only got 8 innings in since the injury. it takes time. but the potential is there for him to contribute this year if he keeps progressing.

  140. The Return of Stoneburner August 30th, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    7.61 k/9, 4.32 bb/9, 1.20 HR/9 – who am I?

  141. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    Mick-

    They treat a lot of their guys like rented mules.

    Or more appropriatley, like yo-yo’s.

    ;)

  142. mick August 30th, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    If batters stay off his slider he wouldn’t get anybody out.
    It’s always in the dirt in front of the plate.
    They don’t make sliders like they used to. Guidry and Gossage sliders that had a piece of the strike zone.

  143. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 7:38 pm

    mick August 30th, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    He used to have that confidence where did it go.
    ============================
    It went to the same place his electric stuff went.

    ——————————————————

    :(

    Although his stuff seems to be better post TJS

  144. Against All Odds August 30th, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    AAO-

    That is on them. Not on Joba.

    ————————-

    My point exactly as mick said to them he is a rented mule. Why should we be surprised this is the same org. that decided he was ready to pitch in a lost season coming off a shoulder injury.

  145. mick August 30th, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    Joba just doesn’t know how to pitch yet.
    He could learn.
    He’s sort of like AJ, who always relied on great stuff, overpowering stuff.
    Now he’s a nibbler. He must have lost something .

  146. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    Theo actually is more of a Cashman clone than the other way around…..though Cash has admitted to stealing a few ideas from Theo
    ///
    How so? I always worried that they’d over react to what the Red Sox would do, because of the fan reaction. There was always too much of a knee jerk response to what Boston did.

  147. Ys Guy August 30th, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    everybody who hits vs. a slider pitcher says to himself, lay off the slider and you’ll get a fat one. most of them are still saying on their way back to the dugout bat in hand.

  148. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    The Yankee way of developing young Pitchers is to throw them into the deep end of the pool and see if they can swim whenever it’s expedient.

  149. yankeefeminista August 30th, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    Joba only had under 50 innings in the minors before being called up. He never went back down except for rehab. Phelps had over 500 MiLB innings. Phelps should be polished.

  150. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    Pineda had a great slider.

    :(

  151. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:43 pm

    YF-

    Phelps is polished.

    Like a shiny granite countertop.

    :)

  152. mick August 30th, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    The Yankee way of developing young Pitchers is to throw them into the deep end of the pool
    ===========================
    They don’t have much experience or need for young pitchers.
    Not til lately with 2014 approaching.
    How should they know what to do with them?

  153. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    RayVT August 30th, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    I concur!
    ///

    Figured you might ;) . Seriously, though, I am so over Cashman. I used to fight for him on boards, especially when the Hughes for Santana stuff was erupting. I’m glad they didn’t bite on that one.

  154. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Mick-

    It shows.

  155. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    New thread —>

  156. J. Alfred Prufrock August 30th, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    Take away a Man’s dreams and you’ve vaporized their soul.

    You ought to know that.

    So yes Martin will be gone.
    ///

    Sorry, he’s just too darn good at framin’.

  157. MTU August 30th, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    JAP-

    That would be just fine if he were a carpenter but he’s a Catcher.

    So he’s outta here.

    ;)

  158. blake August 30th, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    JAP,

    I answered you in the new thread.


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