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Press conference notes: Rivera, Pettitte, Cano, Nunez

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Oct 24, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Joe Girardi does an end-of-the-season press conference every year. It’s standard procedure, and it’s worth doing if only to get the manager’s take on several issues as the Yankees head into the offseason. Why was it so mundane this year?

Because there’s no real mystery for Girardi to address.

The offensive struggles of the postseason went on long enough that Girardi has already talked about them over and over again. Same for his handling of Alex Rodriguez, his take on Derek Jeter’s ankle and his opinion about whether certain players can be productive hitters when it counts. Anything Girardi says about the future is largely speculative because he’s not the final decision-maker.

“I believe we could have won a world championship with the players we had this year, I do,” Girardi said. “We didn’t, but I believe we could have. You look at Kuroda, he has to make a decision. Andy Pettitte needs to make a decision. Soriano has an opt out. Swisher, we have to make a decision on him. Granderson, we have to make a decision on. It just goes on and on and on. Cano is on an option. There’s a lot of players that we have to decide what we’re going to do, but I believe that when spring training starts next year, we’ll be a championship caliber club.”

What does that mean? I don’t know, it’s an optimistic manager speaking with optimism. It’s what we’ve come to expect from Girardi. There wasn’t much he could tell us today, but given the circumstances, there was little reason to expect anything else.

“There’s only going to be one team left standing when it’s over, so there’s going to be a lot of disappointed teams,” Girardi said. “It’s not easy for me to turn a baseball game on and watch it right now because I feel like if we would have played to our capabilities, one of those teams could have been us.”

Here’s Girardi addressing a few other topics:

Is Mariano Rivera coming back next season? 
Girardi said he hasn’t spoken to Rivera since the end of the year — and even in spring training Girardi never asked whether Rivera wants to play next season — but Girardi said his expectation is that he’ll have his closer back.

“From watching how he rehabbed, and everything that he was going through – picked up a baseball sooner than he was supposed to and got his hand smacked a little bit – that would tell me that would tell me that Mo probably wants to play,” Girardi said. “But in saying that, it’s a decision that I think he’ll sit down with his family, evaluate where he is maybe a little bit later in this process and how he feels and how his arm feels, to feel like if he can compete at the level he’s always competed at. But I don’t think that you push a rehab like he pushed it unless you have some interest in possibly coming back.”

Is Andy Pettitte coming back next season?
Similar story in that Girardi hasn’t asked Pettitte about his decision, but unlike Rivera, Girardi seemed to have no sense one way or the other about Pettitte’s future.

“There’s a lot of hunger and fire in him, I know that,” Girardi said. “We saw how he pushed himself to get back and to be a postseason and down-the-stretch pitcher for us going out there where he had 65 pitches, which is not normally something you do at this time of the year. I still think the fire is there, but every year as you get a year older, you have to ask yourself and your family, am I ready to give up eight months of my life. That’s something that he’s going to have to ask himself.”

When will Girardi address his own contract situation?
Next year is the final year of Girardi’s current contract. He said he has no plans of asking for an extension, and he’ll address the contract situation at the end of next season. It’s the same thing he did last time he was in the final year of a contract with the Yankees.

“I expect it to be the same,” he said. “I don’t expect it to change, and I don’t expect to ask to be changed. I understand. I understand how it works here, and I’m okay with that. I’m expected to do my job, and if I do my job, things take care of themselves.”

Does Robinson Cano need a lecture on hustle?
Many of you will be happy to know that Girardi did not dismiss the idea of talking to Cano about the need to hustle more often, especially running hard out of the box.

“Robbie plays every day,” Girardi said. “We expect our players to play hard, lead by example, and do those things. Sometimes frustration sets in. Maybe you don’t run as hard as you should, and that’s learning how to control your emotions. He had, for a little bit, a little tightness in his hip where we had to bring him out of a game, and we addressed that. I will address with every one of our players to play hard. You never know who’s going to drop a popup, or boot a groundball, and put pressure on a team. But sometimes frustration sets in, and that’s one of the things you have to learn to manage.”

Will the Yankees bring Ichiro Suzuki back to the Bronx?
This is the kind of question that’s most interesting heading into the offseason, but it’s also the kind of question Girardi’s not really in a position to answer.

“This is a guy that had a lot of fun playing here,” Girardi said. “You see it on a daily basis and seemed very happy here. Was great to be around, came to play every day, played hard and made adjustments in his game to me because we asked him to play left field, asked him to play center field. And he did those things. He was a treat to be around. As far as what we’re going to do as an organization, I can’t tell you that, but I enjoyed our time with him, I really did.”

What’s the role of Eduardo Nunez going forward?
Nuned was one of the few sparks in the Yankees ALCS lineup, but Brian Cashman has said he sees Nunez strictly as a shortstop, which creates real questions about whether Nunez has a role with the Yankees next year.

“It’s really hard to predict exactly what a guy’s role is going to be right now, because we don’t know who’s on the team,” Girardi said. “But I think this kid has something to offer us. I think we saw that in the Detroit series. There is talent there. There is speed, there is excitement, there is a guy who has the ability, I believe, to be a good shortstop. There is a lot to offer. He brings energy, and I’d have to say he’s one of the favorites in the clubhouse. The guys love him. But I’d say there’s talent there that we’ll try to bring out in him as much as we can.”

Didn’t Yankee Stadium seem to lack energy in the postseason?
Girardi said the relatively quiet postseason crowds at Yankee Stadium could be attributed to Yankees the lack of offense. If you were expecting the manager — especially this manager — to rip the fans or question ticket pricing, you’re crazy.

“I think our fans are very passionate about the Yankees,” Girardi said. “We see it on the road when we go on the road. They’re very passionate about us winning. They like to see us score runs, and when you don’t score runs, it seems like every (stadium) is quiet. There’s not a lot to get excited about. You can get in some great pitchers duels where it’s 1-0, but nothing excites a crowd like people running around the bases. That’s just the way it is. We didn’t really have any big offensive explosions during the playoffs, but I know I feel their love, I feel their passion and we feel their disappointment too when we don’t accomplish the things that we want. I think they’re tremendous.”

Associated Press photos

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285 Responses to “Press conference notes: Rivera, Pettitte, Cano, Nunez”

  1. mick October 24th, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    I believe I saw Bret’s face on a milk carton the other day…

  2. Patrick October 24th, 2012 at 5:25 pm

    I believe I saw Bret’s face on a milk carton the other day…

    Milk sales went down that day

  3. Against All Odds October 24th, 2012 at 5:27 pm

    mick October 24th, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    I believe I saw Bret’s face on a milk carton the other day…

    ———————–

    That’s not nice

  4. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 5:29 pm

    Irreverent Discourse,

    Can you please try to rationalize your erroneous claim that we would have had to “accept” not winning the 2009 World Series, in order to have a younger team today?

    And can you, attempt to explain how Melky/Montero/AJax would somehow be lost to us today, even though all three were in the Yankee organization when Cano flipped a groundball to Teixeira for the final out, and even though we used none of those players to get pieces to win that championship?

    Thanks.

  5. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Prufrock – Can you also go back and actually read the entire conversation that happened before the one post you decided to respond to? I am not responding to something I was not talking about.

    Thanks.

  6. Yankee Trader October 24th, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    I didn’t know this before, but RAB’s reported that in the last 16 innings that Rafeal Soriano pitched he gave up 5 homeruns.

    Personally I wish him luck elsewhere. I ran out of Tums watching him come into a one run Yankee lead, or worse yet a tie-just too hittable and too much like John Wetteland.

  7. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    I agree YT. If Soriano opts out it’s time for this FO to grow a spine and let him walk. The entire A-Rod ordeal was completely embarrassing for them, and only continues to get worse.

    Robertson can do the job.

  8. mick October 24th, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    Why would Girardi want to commit to a new contract until he knows the team he will have going into 2014′s Brave New World?

    I get the idea he’s not all about the money and could find significant money elsewhere if need be.

    Maybe he gets the Cub job, the team his Dad loved.

    He seems perturbed when facing the media during hard times and might want out of this pressure cooker.

  9. austinmac October 24th, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    I see little reason to think about past decisions. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. The question is what to do now. That’s why I never got worked up about a particular trade as it was done. I hoped for the best.

    The team will have many decisions made for them such as Soriano, Pettitte and Kuroda. What happens with them, affects a great deal financially and personnel wise. With them, they have pitching to trade. Without them, they need some. What would Pettitte in salary? Would he pitch all year? Would Kuroda take a one year deal and would the team offer two, if needed?

  10. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    Can’t let Soriano scare you in an opt out, gotta offer him that qual offer. Boras is only going to opt out if he knows he can get a multiyear deal.

  11. be reasonable... October 24th, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    Yankee Trader, can you let me know what “RAB” is? curious.

    Irreverent, would you really let him walk? Seems to me that with so many other questions it might make sense to lock down a more sure thing and have less to worry about. Didn’t Robertson struggle in that role?

    Or is there a better option, either via Free Agency or trade?

    One of the really great things about this blog is the exercise in playing GM. So, if I am playing GM, I think I keep Soriano. Curious to hear other viewpoints.

  12. austinmac October 24th, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    I have my doubts Robertson could close. He looked like a deer in the headlights this year in that role. I hope Mo can do it as I think Soriano is gone.

  13. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    Or is there a better option, either via Free Agency or trade?

    Qualifying offer to Soriano to get draft pick or retain @ 13.3 million.

    Sign Fujikawa for 2/8+option for 6.

  14. austinmac October 24th, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    I completely agree you have to make a qualifying offer to Soriano. He is not opting out and then signing a one year deal.

  15. blake October 24th, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    austinmac says:
    October 24, 2012 at 5:43 pm
    I completely agree you have to make a qualifying offer to Soriano. He is not opting out and then signing a one year deal.

    Nope….agree …gotta make the offer if he opts out

  16. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 5:44 pm

    soriano is hardly a sure thing. certainly not “sure enough” to spend another $13m on a set-up man. This is of course assuming Mo is coming back.

    I absolutely hate how he grooves fastballs all the time. I absolutely hate his post game antic of ripping his jersey out.

    His career has been good/bad/good/bad/good/bad with scattered injuries in between.

    Time to cut and run.

  17. Yankee Trader October 24th, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Focusing now on Chad’s new post:

    Rivera’s knee surgery was lesss extensive than expected. Come back for one more year.

    Pettitte-Try to decide soon whether you’re coming back, so the Yankees can decide if they can afford to trade a pitcher for a bat.

    Cano-Hire Larry Bowa in a meaningful capacity. Will light a fire under him.

    Ichiro-would love him back along with Kuroda and the Yankees going all out for Otani.

    Yankee Stadium- start handing out towels, no clappers or foam tomahawks, towels. Maybe you’ll get more fans standing and waving while cheering! :)

  18. Patrick October 24th, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    Soriano is not worth $13 million but I must say, I like the jersey untuck

  19. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    soriano is hardly a sure thing. certainly not “sure enough” to spend another $13m on a set-up man. This is of course assuming Mo is coming back.

    Yea but they have to let him walk AND get the draft pick for it. If he accepts the qual offer they trade him. 13.3 is more palatable for other teams than 14 million.

  20. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    jerkface – I guess. There is never a shortage of teams willing to overpay a closer though.

  21. be reasonable... October 24th, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    Jerkface,

    I haven’t seen Fujikawa pitch that frequently. In your view is he as good as Soriano or an upgrade?

    I keep coming back to you make the guy an offer and try to lock him up. You don’t know what you are getting with Mo…and the impact of having a failure in that spot is too dangerous. I mean just look at the Tigers. What are they going to do in the Series with their closer in a tight spot?

    Am I wrong in asserting that pitching (starters and bullpen) were a strength for the Yankees?

  22. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 5:48 pm

    Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 5:34 pm

    Prufrock – Can you also go back and actually read the entire conversation that happened before the one post you decided to respond to? I am not responding to something I was not talking about.

    Thanks.
    ///

    Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 3:33 pm
    If you want a younger team, you have to give back the 2009 world series. Do you all find that acceptable?
    ///

    So, “Do you all..” was a question you put to a select “all”? Or all as in all ? If the latter, which was my assumption, I don’t see how I need to qualify your rather straight forward question, and if I may, here’s my answer:

    Winning the 2009 World Series did not require the sacrifice of Melky Cabrera, Austin Jackson or Jesus Montero, who, had they been retained, undoubtedly would occupy 3 spots in the current Yankee lineup.

    They weren’t in fact dealt away before the Yankees had won the championship that year.

    So, I’m not getting why I would have had to “accept” not getting younger because we won the World Series, since those three guys werea actually still here?

    It’s a very simple question, really.

  23. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    Fujikawa is coming from the NPB. He throws a hard fastball in the mid 90s with a splitter as a punch out pitch. Has been the best and most untouchable reliever in the NPB for like the past 8 years. Coming over as a free agent. If they want to spend money on relief, I’d sign him. Japanese relievers tend to come pretty cheap and end up as good value.

  24. 86w183 October 24th, 2012 at 5:50 pm

    If the Yanks DID go all out for Otani, then having Kuroda and Ichiro on board would be a really good incentive.

    Add Matsui as a minor league hitting coach. I think he’d be very good at teaching guys how/when to go the other way.

    They need to know about Mariano, Soriano, Kuroda and Pettitte before things get too interesting.

  25. blake October 24th, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    Soriano isn’t worth. 13 million…..but chances are if he opts out he’s leaving so take the draft pick an if he comes back he comes back…..just makes the pen stronger

  26. Nick in SF October 24th, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    No qualifying offer unless he reveals what was written on his cap, even though it will be a letdown.

  27. Yankee Trader October 24th, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    RAB River Avenue Blues

    http://riveraveblues.com/2012/.....ano-78107/
    Soriano-
    “He did run into some homer problems late in the season (five homers in his last 16 innings), but nothing that would derailed him or the team.”

  28. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    “Winning the 2009 World Series did not require the sacrifice of Melky Cabrera, Austin Jackson or Jesus Montero, who, had they been retained, undoubtedly would occupy 3 spots in the current Yankee lineup.”

    I completely disagree with this statement.

    Melky would have been cut in 2010 when he was awful (probably before he started juicing).
    Montero has no place in this lineup. Ever. Give it up man. He was horrible this year.
    A-Jax vs Granderson is a tough debate, but it has NOTHING to do with what we were talking about. Teixeira is a age related declining player, A-Rod is a age-related declining player. You can’t sign either of those contracts either.

    NONE of them would have been inthe current Yankee lineup. NONE.

    It’s not a “simple question”, because you are basically having a conversation with yourself.

  29. blake October 24th, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    Sign all the Japanese pitchers

  30. be reasonable... October 24th, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    Jerkface, interesting theory and then you still have Mo and he has time to come back. What do you think Fujikawa would cost in terms of a contract? You could resign Ichiro (which I am in favor of) and that would perhaps make NY more comfortable for Fujikawa.

  31. be reasonable... October 24th, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    Thanks Yankee Trader…I’ve not seen that site.

  32. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    Montero has no place in this lineup. Ever. Give it up man. He was horrible this year.

    Factually untrue. And he would not have replicated this season in a different park in a different lineup.

  33. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    jerkface – Would he have replicated his inability to hit RHP?

  34. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    and you can look up his hit spray charts yourself. Nothing he hit would have been helped by YS. we’ve gone through this already this year.

  35. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    “Factually untrue.”

    AND… if that’s not true, than assuming Melky or AJax’s production in YS is just as wrong

  36. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    A split that didn’t exist until recently ? Maybe, but so what? He is a developing player. He could have caught some & DHed some. There was not ‘no room’ for him. That is the biggest farce statement that is constantly deployed on this blog.

  37. Yankee Trader October 24th, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    Boras, from LA, probably already has interest in Soriano from the LA Angels.

  38. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    I completely disagree with this statement.

    Melky would have been cut in 2010 when he was awful (probably before he started juicing).
    Montero has no place in this lineup. Ever. Give it up man. He was horrible this year.
    A-Jax vs Granderson is a tough debate, but it has NOTHING to do with what we were talking about. Teixeira is a age related declining player, A-Rod is a age-related declining player. You can’t sign either of those contracts either.

    NONE of them would have been inthe current Yankee lineup. NONE.

    It’s not a “simple question”, because you are basically having a conversation with yourself.
    ///

    Apparently not.

    See, just because this place doesn’t set up actual individual threads for discussion doesn’t mean you can just say something untrue and it’s on to the next entry and I’m going to forget about it, especially when it is so thoroughly soaked in condescension to “you all”.

    Now, you’re skewing this to your own conceit that Melky Cabrera, AJax and Montero’s exit was somehow inevitable any way, so that somehow retroactively proves your point that winning that 2009 championship meant not getting younger.

    When in fact, there is no direct correlation. You might have just said you had your years mixed up :shrugs:

    I would have forgiven you more easily.

  39. mick October 24th, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    Boras, from LA, probably already has interest in Soriano from the LA Angels.
    ===================================
    What about for Alex?

  40. blake October 24th, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    “Montero has no place in this lineup. Ever. Give it up man. He was horrible this year.”

    I guess you missed all those Jonesy ABs vs LHP?

  41. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    Seriously the team had to DH russell martin because they had no better choice.

  42. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    Prufrock- You can keep your “forgiveness” and learn how to follow a conversation.

    I didn’t say anything untrue and you continue to ignore my response.

    Get a hobby man, trolling me isn’t working.

  43. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    Does everyone remember how bad offensively Austin Jackson was for awhile? You can’t judge rookies on one season…..I still think Montero will hit…..and hit a lot

  44. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    http://www.baseball-reference......at%7CAB%7C

    Which one of those guys was Montero going to outproduce to get himself in the lineup on a regular basis?

    With his .260 BA and .298 OBP and extreme Lefty righty split?

  45. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    JAP is right though, ID, what does 2009 have to do with Melky, Ajax, & Montero? Why would you have to get rid of 2009 to have a younger team?

  46. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    blake- I think he will hit too, I have money invested in Montero still becoming a powerful force in MLB… but to pretend like he would have hit this year had he “only been wearing pinstripes” is ridiculous.

  47. be reasonable... October 24th, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    Well, I thought the Montero for Pineda trade was a good one (having had the opportunity to see Pineda pitch when I was visiting Seattle). Boy was I wrong. A catching platoon of Martin and Montero would be pretty good.

    I ended up getting MLB online (cut off cable with Time Warner here in New York) so while I couldn’t get any Yankee games, I got to see a lot of other teams (enjoyed listening to the Yankees on the radio).

    I watched Montero for a whole year and have to say that at times he looked lost at the plate but at other times he was really hitting the ball. Most surprising to me is that he was a much better catcher than I was led to believe. Was he a Molina? No, but he seemed pretty competent back there.

  48. Yankee Trader October 24th, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    I also think Kuroda will get offers to go back to LA-either Dodgers or Angels. He owned the Angels this year and the Angels might buy out Haren[3.5M] and Santana[1M]

  49. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    jerkface – I have no idea, i never said anything about those guys, he just made this crap up in his head.

    I was talking about the contracts given to Teixeira, A-Rod and Swisher.

    He can’t seem to follow that at all.

  50. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    “Which one of those guys was Montero going to outproduce to get himself in the lineup on a regular basis?”

    At the very least he would have DHd vs LHP and been a lot better than Jonesy there

  51. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    but to pretend like he would have hit this year had he “only been wearing pinstripes” is ridiculous.

    He would have hit BETTER this because SafeCo was a massive joke this year, and he showed a comfort level in NYS his first time up. Being in a beefier lineup would not hurt,

  52. mick October 24th, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    Do you think the Yankees care what we think as fans re: Montero or any other player?
    Aren’t their opinions based on seeing and knowing more than we do?
    So much on here is based on calling their FO idiots and therefore are biased from the start.
    They can only be wrong, never right.

  53. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    “blake- I think he will hit too, I have money invested in Montero still becoming a powerful force in MLB… but to pretend like he would have hit this year had he “only been wearing pinstripes” is ridiculous.”

    Wasn’t all about this year though…..just like for the tigers Ajax ‘s poor 2010 wasn’t just about tht season……

  54. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    I was talking about the contracts given to Teixeira, A-Rod and Swisher.

    But getting younger isn’t a problem because of them? Swisher was young at the time. Now he is going. We can get younger in his place. Tex & A-rod only block 2 spots, and Tex was in his prime during his contract.

  55. be reasonable... October 24th, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    Mick,

    I don’t know. They must be doing something right. They run the biggest sports franchise in the world. With the possible exception of GM on occasion, I am of the mindset that if you are running a billion dollar business you are probably not an idiot. And, while I know that in New York it is World Series or bust, what happen with the Angels and how the Rangers fell apart sure makes the Yankees run of getting to the playoffs and winning some rounds here and there pretty darn impressive.

  56. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    @DCameronFG: Mariners just announced they declined Olivo’s option and released Munenori Kawasaki. Huzzah to both.

  57. Yankee Trader October 24th, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    Mick-

    If ARod goes to Cashman requesting a trade and will waive the NT for a list of acceptable teams. going to the Angels might mean taking back 2 years of Vernon Wells. Don’t really like that one.

    Almost would want two years of Alsonso Soriano instead of Wellsl if getting a bad contract is necessary to complete a trade.

  58. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    jerkface – That’s exactly what i was saying.

    They were useful and young when they were signed. Not so much now. Crying about their “decline” like they were not going to get older is silly.

    Since the post was in response to about 15 others voer the course of an hour, i can’t imagine how someone could take it out of context as not making sense. that’s so strange.

  59. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    jerkface – I have no idea, i never said anything about those guys, he just made this crap up in his head.

    I was talking about the contracts given to Teixeira, A-Rod and Swisher.

    He can’t seem to follow that at all.

    Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 3:33 pm
    If you want a younger team, you have to give back the 2009 world series. Do you all find that acceptable?

  60. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    Cashman actually used Alfonso Soriano as an example of how older players can bounce back when discussing Alex……

  61. Yankee Trader October 24th, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    Why are we talking about Montero? Kevin Towers won’t make his star catcher available :)

  62. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    Since the post was in response to about 15 others voer the course of an hour, i can’t imagine how someone could take it out of context as not making sense. that’s so strange.
    ///

    What’s strange is your idea that the lineup couldn’t have been younger now, because we won a championship in 2009. My point: had we kept our 3 young position players, it would be much younger.

  63. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    Prufrock – Rumor has it that was not the first post ever posted on this blog. I bet you could check.

    I bet you won’t, because you just love being a turd.

  64. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    ID,

    The point stands, the question as you posed it makes no sense. The players who would be ‘young’ do not interfere with any of the 3 guys you mentioned.

  65. Yankee Trader October 24th, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    Blake-

    Thanks for the info. ARod will be the opening day third baseman, until he gets to the point of being miserable in NY, and requests Cashman to try and deal him.

  66. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    I didn’t even realize that AJax had an .856 OPS this year. Wow.

  67. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    This isn’t a political post but just something I learned today that those who enjoy chaos might find interesting……

    It’s possible that the electoral college could en in a 269-269 tie….in which case the House votes on the president and the senate votes on the Vice President ……so therefore it’s theoretically possible that Romneh could be elected president and Joe Biden Vice President …..

    It’s almost like Bud Selig came up with the tie breaker…..maybe they need to add a wild card!

  68. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    J. Alfred Prufrock says:
    October 24, 2012 at 6:14 pm
    I didn’t even realize that AJax had an .856 OPS this year. Wow.

    Combined with awesome CF defense watching Him makes me sad

  69. be reasonable... October 24th, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    Blake, they definitely need to add a wild card. :)

  70. G. Love October 24th, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    mick,

    As much as we call the front office “idiots” I’m sure they call us the same the way Cashman makes snide asides to things the fans are clamoring for.

    We’re even. It’s a distaste detente!

  71. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    I merely asked you for an explanation. But of course, there is none. Whatever.

    FTR, I’d take my 2009 WS, and my younger lineup.

  72. jacksquat October 24th, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:14 pm
    This isn’t a political post but just something I learned today that those who enjoy chaos might find interesting……

    It’s possible that the electoral college could en in a 269-269 tie….in which case the House votes on the president and the senate votes on the Vice President ……so therefore it’s theoretically possible that Romneh could be elected president and Joe Biden Vice President …..

    It’s almost like Bud Selig came up with the tie breaker…..maybe they need to add a wild card!

    And then Romney could just “fire” Biden, or no? I guess not, since it’s an elected position, not an appointment. Funny. Biden would drive Romney crazy. :D

    Do you know what combination of states leads to a tie?

  73. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    Blake, there’s a part of me that swells with pride when he runs a ball down. Saw him a lot in Trenton… Old habits…

  74. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:19 pm

    How Ajax has developed should really give the Yankees pause when considering trading assumed “expendable players” for things they need instead of just buying them….

  75. 86w183 October 24th, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    Why some of you can’t get over past transactions (ttrangressions?) is beyond me.

    Do we have to re-hash every friggin’ trade until hell freezes over?

    AJax is gone, so is Montero, and Kennedy and Clippard and Coke on and on and on…

    move on folks!

    Someone needs to make some new make bleieve trades so we can argue about the future rather than the past.

  76. Yankee Trader October 24th, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    Can we talk about something else? Yes I wish the Yankees never made the trade. I also have my strong doubts that Pineda will show any glimpses of his 1st half Mariner dominance. Poor prognosis to pitch with velocity and wrong way highway DUI doubting his mental makeup.

    So can you guys focus on someone else. I enjoy your takes on things but …………

  77. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    jerkface – His “point” can go jump off a cliff for all I care.

    the conversation we were having had nothing to do with the players he is still crying over. I think he has some serious abandonment issues.

    we were talking about Teixeira Arod and Swisher currently being old. nothing else.

    Seriously… why am i even bothering to explain this to two people that were not involved in the conversation in any way.

    I suggest you both go back and read it. or don’t. I don’t care. I’m not interested in reliving it with people who decided to jump into the conversation 6 hours later. Especially when they clearly DID NOT READ THE WHOLE THING.

  78. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    But prufrock has effectively turned the conversation back to the players he is always crying about.

    something we were never talking about at any point today.

    good job.

  79. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    “And then Romney could just “fire” Biden, or no? I guess not, since it’s an elected position, not an appointment. Funny. Biden would drive Romney crazy.

    Do you know what combination of states leads to a tie?”

    I have no idea….I saw on the news today where they worked it out to a tie….so it is possible….maye even more so than ever before

  80. G. Love October 24th, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    J.AP,

    I’m not saying this to make you feel good, but I’m really starting to see the the logic/benefit of keeping all the bats you mentioned.

    If the Granderson trade doesn’t lead to a WS title, and so far it hasn’t, that one is becoming a bitter pill to swallow.

    I know we got a lot of HR’s out of him and some good D, but we gave up great D, speed and a starter & a good LH reliever. Seeing Coke show the moxie he had in 09 made me wistful.

    As for Montero, I never would’ve dealt him as you know. He may have hit .260 but that was in Seattle. It also was about 50 points higher than our starting C.

    I disagree a bit about Melky only because of what has come to light this season but Cashman certainly gave him away for nothing in the end too in the Boone Logan trade which it will forever be remembered as.

    Melky has a chance for redemption next season. I doubt it will be here. That would elicit questions I’m sure Cashman doesn’t want to answer.

  81. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    Rule of thumb for the Yankees should be never to trade good prospects for things you can buy…..obviously that’s for the way the Yanks should be ran though…..not how they are ran

  82. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    But prufrock has effectively turned the conversation back to the players he is always crying about.

    something we were never talking about at any point today.

    ///

    Your intellectual dishonesty is so on display right now.

  83. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    “It also was about 50 points higher than our starting C.”

    Yet Montero still managed to have a lower OBP than Martin.

    Impressive really.

  84. G. Love October 24th, 2012 at 6:24 pm

    We’re letting Tex get off the hook with the “old” excuse? Really.

    He breezed through his prime years into his silver sneakers years in a blink.

  85. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    “Your intellectual dishonesty is so on display right now.”

    prufrock – Get a hobby, trolling me is over for today.

  86. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    Tigers management had to be hee hawin in their box with Jackaon in CF….Scherzer dominating us ….and Coke closing the games out …..while Granderson waved over another curveball……

    I like Curtis….he was good short term ….but it’s looking like long term the tigers are winning that deal pretty big…..Jackson is a young all star CF and Scherzer pitches like a #1 at times

  87. G. Love October 24th, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    And I know some of you hate to see old deals come up, but I think it’s pretty relevant to be evaluating the Grandy deal now that we’re 3 years removed from it.

    It’s an interesting topic.

    Knowing what we know now, do you still go make that deal?

  88. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    GLove,

    I don’t actually believe they would re-sign Melky, but I would. I don’t think too many Yankee fans would care about him getting busted, but of course, it’s not fan perception that would be the issue. I don’t know why Cashman’s ego, however, wouldn’t be stroked by playing that one as the magnanimous GM ready to dole out a second chance. And lo! Just happens to fit with the almighty budget.

    I agree about Granderson having been logical had they been able to win a title with him. That’s kind of tough, but considering the other moves (or non-moves) made, there actually was a very small window for that trade paying off. If you had the other pieces in place, then a LH power hitter who plays CF would seem a no brainer for the Yankees.

  89. Yankee Trader October 24th, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    Playing the electoral college to a tie is like trying to solve Rubik’s cube. But if you want to try here’s a link.

    http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/20.....ttleground

  90. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    blake – Doesn’t Detroit have to win a WS first, before it’s a win or a lose for anyone involved?

    I do expect them to win but… if the yankees have to win the WS or it’s a loss for them… then so do the Tigers.

  91. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    “Knowing what we know now, do you still go make that deal?”

    Knowing what we know now there is no way you could…..you sign Holliday and keep those players…

  92. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    You’re right about that. I don’t have a single thing to add.

  93. Yankee Trader October 24th, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    Blake-

    I think I’ll wait to see who the Yankees get back in a trade for Granderson this offseason

  94. G. Love October 24th, 2012 at 6:34 pm

    Yankee fans would be find if Melky was brought back. That being said, if he struggled a lot he’d have to deal with the PED spectre on a huge stage in a big media market.

    But I think it’s irrelevant because Cashman wanted him off the team. The only way I see a reunion is if it’s initiated by Melky and he comes cheap.

    George used to love stuff like that when the players wanted the pinstripes. It’s why we ended up with Sheff over Vlad.

  95. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    Melky has to prove he can hit without the drugs, and pinstripes is no place to do that.

    There is no way to know he didn’t start in KC last year. It would seem obvious that he did.

  96. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    He started in 2009 right before the ALCS :D.

  97. Ys Guy October 24th, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    personally i like melky but i also don’t expect too much from the post ped melky. i know he’ll come cheap but i still think you’ll get what you pay for.

    but even with what happened this year, he gets some credit from me for being the cf on a yankees WS winning team.

    i dont think melky can turn the yankees around and therefore he’s probably not worth the risk.

  98. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 6:42 pm

    Melky has to prove he can hit without the drugs, and pinstripes is no place to do that.

    Steroids don’t make you hit .300

  99. Lost October 24th, 2012 at 6:44 pm

    Remember this:

    The Florida Marlins and Detroit Tigers have agreed in principle on a trade that will send Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to Detroit for key prospects, Cameron Maybin, pitcher Andrew Miller, catcher Mike Rabelo and minor league pitchers Eulogio De La Cruz, Dallas Trahern and Burke Badenhop to the Marlins.

    The “Business” of baseball is changing. Deals you shake your head at happen and will continue. Good trades, bad trades, unexpected trades and of course the head-scratcher trades.. you never know what is going to happen but I expect quite a bit this winter.

    When this trade went down and it was known Miggy would be available we didn’t have a sport for him. Or at least we didn’t wanna “make a spot for him”. Another trade we missed out on. Hopefully this winter we’ll be the ones with the blockbuster trade.

    We’ll just need to wait and see.

    Melky:

    I am not even going to comment on the ridiculousness of suggesting Melky back to NY. Stop suggestions players that had a brief moment of glory, but Melky ? Again, no comment.

  100. Lost October 24th, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    “When this trade went down and it was known Miggy would be available we didn’t have a SPOT for him. “

  101. jacksquat October 24th, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    JAP, you keep mentioning the 2009 ALCS for Melky, but small sample sizes like that don’t mean anything, and you know it.

    He did display signs of possibly being a better hitter while with the Yankees, but on average, over 5 years, with plenty of at bats, he was average. You want to condemn Cashman as usual, but I don’t for that.

    That said, for 2013 I would sign him for 1 year if the price is right.

  102. NYY_Girl_Penny October 24th, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    “Stop suggestions players that had a brief moment of glory”

    LOL ! Welcome to the Mensa of the baseball world Lost !!

  103. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    jerkface – “Steroids don’t make you hit .300″

    Are you now a medical expert on every single way a steroid can help an athlete?

    Recovery from injury/fatigue, being able to work out harder/more can all result in better coordination and hand-eye ability with a bat. Any number of factors could have attributed to his ever increasing BABIP, and one of them is now steroids.

    It doesn’t “make” you hit .300. They don’t make you hit 70 HR’s either. They certainly do help, though.

  104. Ys Guy October 24th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    indians veterans must be psyched that tito is coming in as manager next season. the most player-friendly manager in the game today.

    stock up the brewski, order some wing and if we win 75 games, its an improvement.

  105. G. Love October 24th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    Some Melky things I’ll never get out of my mind are 2 defensive plays.

    One on his first game in Fenway as a rookie where he botched a fly ball that led to an inside the park HR. I felt horrible for him. I think he had just been promoted that game and put in CF.

    The other, robbing Manny Ramirez of a HR by going over the wall in LF in ’06 or ’07 I think.

    The old Stadium erupted and celebrated that catch for almost 5 minutes.

  106. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    Melky’s success as a hitter was predictable. And no, PEDS aren’t going to make you hit .300 from both sides of the plate. That is the definition of ridiculous, IMO.

    I also am dubious they re-sign him, although they should. Perfect player for what ails the lineup.

    Even though we’re out, I’m rather psyched to watch this WS. I picked the Giants in six, but it should be a good one.

  107. Ys Guy October 24th, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    id actuallly like to see the giants win (b/c they started out in renesslear county),

    but the tigers should win it and miguel cabrera deservs the coronation.

  108. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    The other, robbing Manny Ramirez of a HR by going over the wall in LF in ’06 or ’07 I think.
    ///

    Think it was ’06, because he was still playing LF. Farnsworth was the happiest man in the ballpark.

    The homer vs. Cleveland in 2007 ALDS and throwing Lofton out at the plate from CF would have been more memorable, had we won.

  109. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    They certainly do help, though.

    Dubious. Cannot get turned off from a .300 hitting switch hitter because of an unknown impact of drugs that is most likely statistically meaningless

  110. Ys Guy October 24th, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    you’re just dismissing melky’s atlanta experience. it was just as ‘predictable’ that melky would never sniff a

    major league ballfield again as it was that he would suddenly put it all together and win a batting crown.

  111. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    “blake – Doesn’t Detroit have to win a WS first, before it’s a win or a lose for anyone involved?

    I do expect them to win but… if the yankees have to win the WS or it’s a loss for them… then so do the Tigers.”

    The Yankees haven’t either and the Tigers probably are going to…..plus they have a cost controlled .800 OPS gold glove CFer

  112. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    He did display signs of possibly being a better hitter while with the Yankees, but on average, over 5 years, with plenty of at bats, he was average. You want to condemn Cashman as usual, but I don’t for that.
    ///

    Now see this is just wrong.

    I was against the trade at the time, and for two reasons. 1). I thought Melky would eventually figure it out, because he had always shown an ability to hit the breaking ball and because he had good plate coverage and a nice, compact swing. I thought it would one day add up to a very good hit tool. I got flack on many sites for opposing the “fourth OF” meme, so this is not some thoughtless excoriation or piling on of Cashman.

    2). I thought the Yankees should not have given up on Chamberlain in 2010 as a starter. I thought the Javy move was not going to work out, and that it would have been a much better plan to stick with Joba’s development as a starter.

  113. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    “Dubious. Cannot get turned off from a .300 hitting switch hitter because of an unknown impact of drugs that is most likely statistically meaningless”

    Sure I can. I already am turned off.

    Once you are found to be a cheater any prior success is suspect, especially immediate success. There is no guarantee that 2011-2012 Melky shows up, and 2010 Melky from Atlanta stays home in 2013.

    You can’t deny that even something as simple as hitting the ball harder (on average) can result in more base hits. Harder ground balls get through holes, and harder fly balls leave parks.

    I think he can be successful again (Braun certainly didn’t slow down), but how much 2013 payroll are you going to risk on such a huge question mark?

  114. blake October 24th, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    “Lost says:
    October 24, 2012 at 6:46 pm
    “When this trade went down and it was known Miggy would be available we didn’t have a SPOT for him. “

    Think what kind of pitcher we could have traded Miggy for!

  115. jacksquat October 24th, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Ha, anyone who thinks steroids don’t help has never used them. :)

    That said, I think Melky can be better than his Yankee/Braves years off the roids. For one thing he will probably maintain some of what he gained. He may also realize the benefits of being in good shape and be in better shape than he was with the Yankees. He also has more experience which has probably helped. I would predict roughly KC type numbers from him.

  116. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    You can’t deny that even something as simple as hitting the ball harder (on average) can result in more base hits. Harder ground balls get through holes, and harder fly balls leave parks.

    Sure, but I deny that steroids make players hit the ball harder.

  117. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    Ha, anyone who thinks steroids don’t help has never used them

    -

    They help in weight lifting, not baseball.

  118. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 7:01 pm

    Ys Guy October 24th, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    you’re just dismissing melky’s atlanta experience.
    ///

    Not dismissing it. I thought he’d break out in 2010, but it happened a year later than I thought. I thought Atlanta wasn’t representative. I do believe the last two seasons are closer to what I envisioned for him. Last season was obviously particularly awesome. Even if he doesn’t do that again, he can certainly repeat 2011. That was not, in my estimation of him, something that was surprising or beyond his abilities.

  119. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    I don’t understand how anyone could deny that steroids help an athlete perform his job, no matter what that job is.

    Baseball is not some special activity that is immune to the effects of bigger, stronger athletes performing… better. Quite the opposite. See: 1995-2007

  120. blake October 24th, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    I think steroids help….I don’t think in many cases that good players who took them all the sudden become terrible after they stop though…..I bet Melky has a good season next year…..better than he’s paid anyway

  121. blake October 24th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    I also think steroid help some players more tha.n others as well

  122. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    If those unnamed GMs, and trainers quoted are correct, that PEDs are a “big problem” and that synthetic testosterone is rampant, how can you gauge a player’s so-called “advantage”?

    Whatever these drugs do or don’t do, they are not turning a “fourth OF” into a hit tool machine. Maybe the “fourth OF” prognosticators had it wrong? Very like.

  123. J. Alfred Prufrock October 24th, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    Sounds like he’s going back to the Giants, any way.

    Time to prepare for non-Yankee baseball.

    Hard to believe our season is more than five months away.

    Go Zito!

  124. jacksquat October 24th, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    JF (and anyone), you can choose to believe whatever you want, but the fact is that being stronger can certainly allow you to move an object (the bat) with more force, i.e. faster. A quicker swing means balls hit harder and can allow you to hit for a higher average.

    Imo you kind of have to be burying your head in the sand to deny this.

  125. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    blake – it’s the ones that abused the drugs that fell apart… the ones that took them without abusing them would see tremendous physical gain at little cost. in reality, everyone should be taking some form of steroid in low doses. there are tons of health benefits to this beyond just the physical benefits.

    The point isn’t even that they “definitely helped Melky”.

    The point is that now that he has failed a test and been suspended, you can’t know how much they helped. The fact that his numbers have increased drastically over the last 2 seasons should only hinder the ability to assume this was a clean uptick in production. They help everyone differently. What if the only thing that was keeping Cabrera from knocking out 200hit seasons instead of 120 hit seasons was a little bit more bat speed?

    How do you justify spending millions of dollars on that?

  126. mick October 24th, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    One on his first game in Fenway as a rookie where he botched a fly ball that led to an inside the park HR. I felt horrible for him. I think he had just been promoted that game and put in CF.
    =========================
    I believe that was at the Stadium in RF and I believe I was there.

  127. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    Baseball is not some special activity that is immune to the effects of bigger, stronger athletes performing… better. Quite the opposite. See: 1995-2007

    Hm actually baseball kind of is. Strongest isn’t best, guys with similar physiques & benching / lifting ability provide vastly different performances. Throwing the ball & hitting the ball are 2 things where I do not think steroids help at all. For the most part your batspeed is your batspeed. If you don’t have the ability to whip the bat through the zone you’re not going to get it no matter how strong you are.

    I propose the ‘steroid era’ was not caused by steroids, but expansion & a change in the ball.

    http://deadspin.com/5937432/wa.....d+ball-era

  128. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:15 pm

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01.....score.html

  129. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    jerkface – What is the difference if the steroid helps him hit the ball, or recover quicker and have more opportunities to hit the ball since he isn’t taking days off? Or rounds out his muscle mass making his core muscle structure more balanced, giving him more bat control?

    I’m sure quite a few players in the league would be glad to know that working out and practicing more doesn’t actually help in baseball. This could be groundbreaking research.

  130. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    jerkface – Unless you have another link that proves the ball has been “changed back” in the last 4 years when the increased drug testing and penalties began… and offense disappeared… I don’t see what these links are proving other than wild speculation.

  131. 4 NYY October 24th, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    What is this ? Back To The Future ?

    Melky is gone, he screwed up, is NOT needed, nor wanted here. Couldn’t accomplish what he did in S.F. without the juice. Idiotic try at cover up. Giants don ‘t even want him.

    ( A-Rod is enuff )

    Ajax is a Tiger. Bye, good luck.

    Montero is a Mariner. Bye, good luck.

    Coke is a Tiger. Bye, good luck.

    Kennedy is a D-Back. Bye, good luck.

    How far shall we go back ?

    $ 189 Million is the future.

  132. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    What is the difference if the steroid helps him hit the ball, or recover quicker and have more opportunities to hit the ball since he isn’t taking days off? Or rounds out his muscle mass making his core muscle structure more balanced, giving him more bat control?

    I’m sure quite a few players in the league would be glad to know that working out and practicing more doesn’t actually help in baseball. This could be groundbreaking research.

    Well I think if you’re only using it for the ability to keep playing, then its not performance enhancing. Or else we could get rid of cortisone and everything else that keeps injured players playing.

    And of course I’m not talking about players not working out or practicing at all, but steroids don’t make a player better at baseball drills & the point of steroids is gain in muscle mass which is marginal over a players un-enhanced ability to work out. I think players reach a plateau without strength enhancing PEDs that additional muscle is unhelpful in baseball activities. And the muscles being bigger doesn’t have much to do with them firing faster or improving batspeed and what not.

    Kind of like how corked bats don’t do anything.

  133. 4 NYY October 24th, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    Nah, steroids, etc. didn’t help Bonds, Sosa or Mac !!! { coincidence } ( hundreds of others )

    Wanna buy a bridge ?

  134. jacksquat October 24th, 2012 at 7:25 pm

    Increased strength and corked bats are two totally different things.

  135. jacksquat October 24th, 2012 at 7:26 pm

    They don’t want to buy a bridge, they just don’t want to believe that some of their favorite players were possibly helped by steroids.

  136. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    Unless you have another link that proves the ball has been “changed back” in the last 4 years when the increased drug testing and penalties began… and offense disappeared… I don’t see what these links are proving other than wild speculation.

    Offense disappearing is more than just testing. We’ve had testing for a while now. You have to think about talent distribution, the quality of the players in the league. We’ve had multiple generational type hitters fade off the map, and no one to pickup the slack yet. Still, more HRs hit this year than in 1997 or 96, the middle of the steroid era?

  137. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:28 pm

    They don’t want to buy a bridge, they just don’t want to believe that some of their favorite players were possibly helped by steroids.

    Definitely NOT my argument. If they were helped everyone should be using them. The studies that show the level of power displayed between ERAs shows there was no effect from ‘steroids’.

  138. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    “the point of steroids is gain in muscle mass”

    This is not the only point of taking steroids. This is the disconnect.

    You cortisone example is a perfect example of that.

    No matter the reason they are taking them (see: andy pettitte), you fail the test just the same.

    “kind of like how corked bats don’t do anything”

    This is where absolutes do you no good. Corked bats don’t help you hit the ball farther, or allow you to hit them harder… which has been proven… but they certainly are lighter and allow a hitter to get the bat head to a ball he normally would not have hit at all. Hitting a ball is, the last time I checked… better than not hitting a ball.

    There ar ejust entirely too many factors and muscle groups int he human body to say that the benefits of working out while on steroids don’t translate to the activity of playing baseball. They do, in fact they must.

  139. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    You basically have to argue that suddenly and without warning, everyone in the league started using steroids at the same time & continued using at the same rate with no improvements for a very specific period. It is more likely an ‘era’ related to a common denominator, equipment.

  140. 4 NYY October 24th, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    If you want a good honest reference, see what the guy that ran Balco has to say now.

    Looks like he and Canseco are the only non liars in the bunch.

  141. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    Balco guy says 50% of players are using *right now* , so … who are these guys? Why aren’t we in a steroid era?

  142. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    jerkface – Or, even more likely… it’s both the ball and the drugs.

    The “outbreak” in the league in the 90′s were more a product of the ability to conceal steroid use, not that they were just suddenly invented.

  143. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:34 pm

    Why would they need to conceal it if it wasn’t tested? What would concealing have to do with it? Why all of a sudden?

    Players have stated steroids were used in the 80s. So what the hey?

  144. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    jerkface – Where are they? They are right here in front of you, and one of them is going to be the 2 time NL MVP. Another one of them probably would have won the NL batting title this year, but he got caught and actually suspended.

  145. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:36 pm

    Melky sure contributed to the steroid era with his 11 HRs.

  146. jacksquat October 24th, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    I hope the Giants win in 4 so we can get on with the postseason.

  147. 4 NYY October 24th, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    We are in a steroid era. Heard of micro dosing ? Did you notice during the season how many minor leagues were caught on the avg. of almost every other week ? ( no players union to hide and protect )

    I don’t know if he’s right or not about the 50%, but I would think he knows more than you or I.

  148. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    We are in a steroid era. Heard of micro dosing ? Did you notice during the season how many minor leagues were caught on the avg. of almost every other week ?

    Why doesnt it show up statistically?

  149. 4 NYY October 24th, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    Wonder why Melky’s avg. went so high ?

  150. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    jerkface- Why did you say above that steroids don’t help you hit home runs, and then equivocate the steroid era with players hitting home runs?

    There is nothing to suggest that more players would or could hit home runs with or without drugs. It may certainly allow different players to be successful in different ways, from a pitcher being able to throw a ball harder to a fielder being able to get to a line drive quicker, to a batter hitting a baseball with more solid contact, or a batter being able to move a bat faster and get to pitches he never could hit before.

    Putting your head in the sand as to the innumerable possible effects PED’s can have on ANY sporting event seems very narrow sighted of you.

  151. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    jerkface – “Why doesnt it show up statistically?”

    Maybe it’s showing up right now in all the pitchers doing steroids and shutting down hitting?

    Baseball is way more complex than you are allowing this arguement to account for.

  152. yankfan1 October 24th, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    Trish

    Giants in 6

  153. Against All Odds October 24th, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    Why some of you can’t get over past transactions (ttrangressions?) is beyond me.

    ————————–

    Because the Yankees are old and don’t have those young players to turn too. If their own kids were closer or already on the team there wouldn’t be constant talk about them.

  154. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    Oh thats it, we figured it out. We are in the steroid era where only pitchers & fielders are being helped! Instead of before where only hitters were being helped.

  155. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    Juiced?

    When baseballs were flying out of the park in the late 1990s and early 2000s, speculation abounded that the balls—and not just the players—were juiced. Nathan and Smith wanted to see if modern baseballs truly are livelier than those used decades ago. So they fired two sets of balls, one from the 2004 season and one from the late 1970s, against a solid, flat steel plate, and measured the COR. The result? Identical COR figures between balls present and past, suggesting that the difference was in the players.

    Read more: The Machine That Shatters Baseball Myths – Do Corked Bats Work? – Popular Mechanics

    http://www.popularmechanics.co.....ball-myths

  156. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    Maybe it’s showing up right now in all the pitchers doing steroids and shutting down hitting?

    Baseball is way more complex than you are allowing this arguement to account for.

    Its complexity is such that I discount any notion that PEDs help in the way many people argue, that the effects of all users cancel out, and in the end we must take all stats at face value. Getting back to my earlier comment, I don’t know why you would worry about Melky’s performance next season when he has clearly shown ability the past 2 years. The game is too complex for it to be the result of steroids. And even if I allowed the premise that it was, why would he stop using? Seeing as you apparently think Braun is using right now. So sign the guy! He’ll cheat and help the Yankees win.

  157. 4 NYY October 24th, 2012 at 7:46 pm

    I D, he’s just in denial.

  158. jacksquat October 24th, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    I hope the Giants win in 4 so we can get on with the *offseason*.

  159. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    jerkface –
    That you would mock my suggestion that pitchers are taking them and currently seem to have an advantage just shows your insistence of dragging this debate out.

    Why do you think the players would take steroids in the first place if they didn’t help?

    Do you think they just do it because they are bored? I think their own actions speak louder than any of our words.

    If taking steroids didn’t help at all as you are suggesting, people wouldn’t still be taking them. People wouldn’t be running companies dedicating to improving them and masking them either. They certainly wouldn’t be expensive if they didn’t work at all.

  160. Against All Odds October 24th, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    $ 189 Million is the future.

    ——————-

    That’s not exactly a good thing

  161. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:47 pm

    Yea and the study with balls from 99 & 2000 show a difference in COR.

  162. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:48 pm

    That you would mock my suggestion that pitchers are taking them and currently seem to have an advantage just shows your insistence of dragging this debate out.

    Why weren’t they taking them before? Why aren’t hitters taking them now? Why is only 1 group dominant at a time? Why would steroids possibly work that way?

  163. yankeefeminista October 24th, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    Against All Odds October 24th, 2012 at 7:47 pm
    $ 189 Million is the future.

    ——————-

    That’s not exactly a good thing
    _____
    It will be if they are forced to play the kids. :)

    Trish, Giants in 6!

  164. 4 NYY October 24th, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    J F, the blog God has spoken ! LMAO

  165. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    “The game is too complex for it to be the result of steroids. ”

    You can’t possibly know this until he comes back and hits now that you would assume he is not taking them.

    Until then you just want to assume they didn’t help him, which makes zero sense.

    They effect every player differently. Some will hit better, some will run faster, some will throw harder… that doesn’t meant hat overall it has the same effects on everyone’s statistics. The game still has to be played. if a player is playing with advantages, you cannot assume the same level of production without those advantages.

    “Seeing as you apparently think Braun is using right now”

    Reality check, jerkface. Braun FAILED his PED test last season and got off on a technicality. He dropped significantly in fantasy drafts before this season started because there was great reason to expect regression in his stats when he “stopped using”.

  166. 4 NYY October 24th, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    yankeefeminista October 24th, 2012 at 7:49 pm
    Against All Odds October 24th, 2012 at 7:47 pm
    $ 189 Million is the future.

    ——————-

    That’s not exactly a good thing
    _____
    It will be if they are forced to play the kids.

    Trish, Giants in 6!

    =========================

    Hey Y F, I’m with ya’ ! New blood is needed. Combination of young guys with experienced vets is what it’s all about.

  167. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    “Why weren’t they taking them before? Why aren’t hitters taking them now? Why is only 1 group dominant at a time? Why would steroids possibly work that way?”

    Who said they weren’t? That they aren’t?

    They are all taking them at all times. It effects the outcome of everything. Guys are simply not bulking up to the megalith stature of McGuire anymore because that’s entirely too obvious.

  168. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 7:54 pm

    If taking steroids didn’t help at all as you are suggesting, people wouldn’t still be taking them. People wouldn’t be running companies dedicating to improving them and masking them either. They certainly wouldn’t be expensive if they didn’t work at all.

    I’m not saying they don’t work, but that they have limited application in baseball. There is a lot more to baseball than pure athleticism or strength. If simply being stronger was the fix for batspeed, guys wouldn’t lose it. A-rod could simply get swole and stop having trouble catching up to fastballs. I think the core element of hitting is mostly a natural talent.

  169. 4 NYY October 24th, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    I D, you make way too much sense !

  170. Irreverent Discourse October 24th, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    jerkface – a natural talent dictated by athletic ability.

    I always understood the game better than I could play it. Steroids probably would have done me wonders if i could hit line drives over the fence instead of right at outfielders. :)

  171. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 8:01 pm

    They are all taking them at all times. It effects the outcome of everything. Guys are simply not bulking up to the megalith stature of McGuire anymore because that’s entirely too obvious.

    McGwire was a big boy without steroids though. There are hardly any 6’5 hitters in the game right now. Not for nothing A-rod is probably bulkier than McGwire, just shorter.

  172. Jerkface October 24th, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    And there are plenty of ultra jacked baseball players.

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