Tuesday night notes and links: Wow
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 13, 2012 
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If I’m following all of this correctly, today’s blockbuster — should that be blockbustre? — goes a little something like this.
Toronto gets
Josh Johnson, Mark Buehrle, Jose Reyes, John Buck, Emilio Bonifacio and $4 million
Miami gets
Yunel Escobar, Adeiny Hechavarria, Henderson Alvarez, Justin Nicolino, Jeff Mathis, Jake Marisnick and Anthony DeSclafani
It’s going to take all of us a little bit of time to wrap heads around that one. Huge, huge trade. Significant impact in the American League East. Amazing to see a deal like that come together.
A few other notes and links from today:
• Joe Girardi finished fifth in the Manager of the Year voting. Oakland’s Bob Melvin won the award, with Buck Showalter second, Robin Ventura third and Joe Maddon fourth. Girardi got five third-place votes to finish ahead of Jim Leyland and Ron Washington, who had two third-place votes each.
• Joel Sherman notes that Rafael Soriano took a significant chance when he turned down the Yankees qualifying offer.
• Yankees prospect David Adams was named the Player of the Week in the Arizona Fall League. He hit three home runs
while batting .571.
• The Rockies have announced that they’ve hired Dante Bichette as their hitting coach. Bichette is a close friend of Girardi and the father of Yankees prospect Dante Bichette Jr.
• MLB Trade Rumors noted that today was the four-year anniversary of the Yankees trade for Nick Swisher. Has to go down as one of Brian Cashman’s best moves.
• One more starter is off the market. Scott Baker signed with the Cubs.
Associated Press photo
It won’t take any time at all Chad.
It’s a clear win for the Jays.
And a strenghtening of the already competitive AL East.
The Yankees worst case scenario is other teams in the AL east going all out to compete with stuff like this. The Yankees can’t roll with austerity and expect to waltz to a playoff spot when teams in their division are stocking up for playoff runs.
Dont be mad that Josh Johnson got traded. Earlier today some of you were saying that Josh Johnson was injury prone.
Gotta at least be asking about Giancarlo Stanton now right?
The extra WC also gives even more teams a chance to eat pie.
That’s additional motivation.
if rays get upton and orioles get hamilton. the red sox and yankees will be fighting to be…………….. out of the bottom.
Asking but only hear a click on the other end.
@Ken_Rosenthal: Source: Nolasco could be next #Marlins player traded.
The Sox have money to spend.
The Yankees have sawdust.
Blake-
We need a bat not another Pitcher.
Isn’t competition a wonderful thing ?
One difference between Martin and Napoli is that Martin is a full time catcher and Napoli never has been…..
Napoli’s career high in games caught is 87 and that was in 2009…..it’s the only time he’s caught 80 games…..so even if you’re ok with his defense you still have to plan on somebody else catching a whole lot of games…..maybe you could catch Romine half and him half and just let him DH a lot …..but you have to be confident that Romine is ready to do that…..
MTU-
Yes I found the answers in the #’s, and it doesn’t look good until some of the baby Bombers are permitted to contribute.
The Red Sox and Marlins were able to clean house because they don’t give out any NT clauses in their contracts.
Will FA’s look at the Yankees as a desirable place to play and live?
BTW, can players traded in the middle of their contracts, still demand a trade?
Thats why a Napoli / Ross platoon would have been ideal. Ross handles RHP well, Napoli should handle LHP but on a good year handles both. Could have DHed when Ross was behind the plate. Plenty of room for Romine to come up at the ASB to get starts too.
Now its looking like they’re either going to run Martin & Stewart/Whiteside behind the plate again, thus assuring a sub .700 OPS catcher tandem with average defense.
Blake-
Worrying bout Napoli is like missing the Forest for the trees IMO.
Look at the the Elephant in the room.
It ain’t pretty.
Blake-
We need a bat not another Pitcher.”
Unless Kuroda leaves…..
YT-
I’m glad for you.
They’ll find it desirable if they are being paid well and the desire and commitment to winning each and every year still burns brightly.
Unfortunately, both of those conditions may not be operative right now.
@jonmorosi: Now let’s get to the real question: What does this mean for Maicer Izturis?
Good question
If the R.ays get Justin Upton they are losing a starter, perhaps Shields, Hellickson, or even Wade. Plus they are losing brother Upton, so they would not be significantly better unless other pieces are added.
Heathcott is 4-5 with a homer and Adams is 3-6.
Blake-
If AP returns ( I think he does) they can manage.
Kuroda is the cherry on top of the cake.
The gear that engages other gears.
Both Alex and Tex need to take salary cuts to help the team reach their goals even if is for just one year. Can you imagine what moves we’d be able to do if Arod and Tex gave the yankees a new contract that backloaded their last 2 years.. Steve Jobs took a $1 salary.. these guys are hurting the team, shoot give them a percentage of ownsweship but somehow get these handcuffs to loosen a few notches. They can’t live up to their salaries by even performing as all star level let alone the legends they are paid for and sure as heck are not.
If Arod wants fans to like him he’ll act. But wait, if he gives them a season for minimum pay he’ll only have 250mil in the bank instead of 270mil OH NO !!! I won’t be able to pay my electric bill.
Team players my tush.. we fans need to be vocal about getting these bums out of NY or at least stop deadlocking us from making the team better. It’s one thing if they earned it, its another that they are playing like 5million dollar players !!!
So disgusting and frustrating !!!!!!!!!!
Don’t watch Napoli enough to weigh in on him, but I will say the best part of Martin’s game is not something you really can quantify. That is his working to his pitchers strengths and his game calling. Now I’m not saying he’s great at it, but I think he’s pretty good. And I do think the Yankee pitchers like throwing to him.
Pat M did I understand correctly, you had to give 4 points with Duke? It would seem the higher ranked team would especially playing at home would have to give points. Personally I think Duke is going to win easily.
“Thats why a Napoli / Ross platoon would have been ideal.”
Well yea but that’s over…..I think they have almost boxed themselves into a corner where they either have to give Martin too much money or just go with Romjne and maybe try to trade for a better back up
The media is finally starting to see the light. Can we pray for fan backlash and the Yankees responding?
BTW, can players traded in the middle of their contracts, still demand a trade?
–
No. That rule is no longer in the CBA. And under the old rule it would only take place at the end of the season following the trade.
austinmac says:
November 13, 2012 at 9:18 pm
Heathcott is 4-5 with a homer and Adams is 3-6.
Those guys are killin it…..They need to give Adams a strong look….he reminds me of Micheal Young….not that he will be that good….but he has a similar swing and look in the box…..and Heathcott needs to start at Trenton
Girardi got five third-place votes to finish ahead of Jim Leyland and Ron Washington, who had two third-place votes each.
—
Who the heck votes ? Did they even watch Girardi .. 5 third place votes ? WTH is wrong with people ?
YT-
IMO the Rays can afford to lose pitching w/o even batting an eyelash.
They are loaded.
The Yankees are a in a very difficult situation – but one that is seen frequently in other industries.
They are a market leader straddled with enormous legacy costs that has come under new ownership that is intent on doing one of two things: redefining the organization’s business model or selling.
These situations generally don’t turn out to well. Assuming for now the intent isn’t to sell, it really tends to depend on either the new(ish) ownership being willing to either 1) invest new funds into the enterprise to get them through a restructuring of those legacy costs; 2) be exceptionally shrewd and identify undervalued market assets/ opportunities; 3) simply minimize costs, allow performance to diminish so that you can maximize profits.
That’s an overly simple frame work – in practice those goals can be mixed. But that’s roughly how I see the yankees situation now.
It’s pretty clear #1 is out. So the question is how much are the yankees #2 vs #3.
And there’s really not a lot of evidence to support them being able to succeed via route #2 to be honest. Not in this new competitive environment. But ultimately that’s to be determined. And this off season will go a long way towards determining that.
Do the Yankees move in the direction of needed innovation or do they continue to pretend that the legacy costs are bearable and that they don’t need to change the way they do business?
Heathcott and Adams are both looking good in the showcase.
They are both on fire right now.
Their trade value has risen.
I’m not a big fan of AJ Pierzynski, but a platoon of him and Romine and a cheap FA ready in AAA might work.
Anyway, unless the Yankees give Martin 3 years, he could very well be a Ranger, now that Torii Hunter, who was high on the Ranger’s radar might be going to Detroit.
Heathcott hit a homer today too
CB-
great to see you.
You laid it out and I pretty much agree.
I think they’re leaning hard into #3.
And I wouldn’t rule out a sale at some point as a real possiblity either.
Hey CB….good to see you….I think they like option #3 unfortunately
@MinorLeagueBlog: #Yankees Slade Heathcott went 4-5, HR, 2RBI today to boost his Arizona Fall League average to .371
CB-
Good to “see” you. If it’s #3 and even #2 the Yankees could very well have to contend with decreased attendance and sales of merchandise.
Christmas just came early,and Yunel is far, far away, fading fast……
Money talks and shrewdness walks.
Cashman isn’t all that shrewd IMO.
There are others who are better.
Blake-
Will Heathcott do a Ted Williams ?
I am pretty sure Heathcott will start at AA. He is 22 and seems very ready. The AFL is pretty good.
I am all for giving Adams a shot. He is the type of hitter they need.
The AFL is pretty good… for a hitters league
Its offensive heavy, but I love that Adams & heathcott are crushing it. They should. I agree Heathcott should start at AA. Adams should be on the big league bench…
“Will Heathcott do a Ted Williams ?”
I’ll take a good big league regular
Blake-
Can you give me examples of players that jumped straight from AA or even high A and made an impact on their parent team. Do we really have to wait for Adams or Montgomery or even Austin or maybe Heathcott?
Mac-
Also possible those cattle are being fattened up for sale.
CB……What direction would you like to see them go and what would be your first few key moves ?????/
Blake-
I meant hit .400
@Joelsherman1: Every outside exec spoken to doesn’t think #Marlins will trade Stanton. 2 said Mia said all availables at GM Meetings, Stanton not on list
Blake-
Of course not. He’s cheap.
tAR…..Yes Duke was favored and the line opened at 1.5 and shot up to 4…..Knicks on a role and without Linsanity
“do they continue to pretend that the legacy costs are bearable and that they don’t need to change the way they do business?”
I think the company line is that the legacy costs are indeed bearable. They can still win in the present. BUT they are definitely putting out there that they need to change how they do business (or spend) going forward.
So they feel that they can win with the legacy costs and lower spending. Pipedream.
Thanks Pat I still like your play.
Can you give me examples of players that jumped straight from AA or even high A and made an impact on their parent team. Do we really have to wait for Adams or Montgomery or even Austin or maybe Heathcott?
–
Miguel Cabrera
Giancarlo Stanton.
Mike Trout, but he kind of sucked (he was only 19 though)
David Wright started the season in AA and was in the majors by July in 2004.
Garcia on the Tigers went from AA to the majors.
Alex Avila on the tigers went from AA to the majors.
Alexei Ramirez went from Cuba to the Majors.
Pujols went from A ball to the majors
Tar-
Sort of depends on your view of the Farm.
Or on how willing they are to trade.
Hechevarria is going to be a nice player. Perhaps every bit as good as Reyes.
“Can you give me examples of players that jumped straight from AA or even high A and made an impact on their parent team. Do we really have to wait for Adams or Montgomery or even Austin or maybe Heathcott?”
Some players (Harper, kershaw ect) jump either jump from AA to the bigs or spend very little time at AAA….(AA is a phone call away is an old saying ) .the Yanks are pretty cautious though and tend to move really slow….I think they should be more aggressive at times.
Heyward essentially went from AA to the majors.
@AndrewMarchand: “@Joelsherman1: With Reyes and Buehrle gone, #Marlins will have no $$ committed to payroll in 2014.” (Hal’s dream!)
The writers are starting to get it
Jerkface says:
November 13, 2012 at 9:42 pm
Heyward essentially went from AA to the majors.
Yup….that actually wasn’t the plan but he just killed it so much in ST that year that Cox made them take him north
Maybe Mac is onto something and there will be a backlash ?
Maybe this 30 yo Marlin outfielder is available?
http://miami.marlins.mlb.com/t.....='ALL‘
A peasant’s revolt.
YT-
Stop looking in the scrapheap for a new motor.
That’s not where you get them.
And if it’s not a new motor they need then it’s certainly a new transmission.
You won’t find that there either.
Nick Castellanos’s name has come up several times this off season. He’s a strong trade chip for Detroit.
He was drafted in 2010 and at the time he was considered to be one of the best pure hitting high schooler in the draft. He didn’t get taken until the supplemental round however due to his price.
I remember hoping the Yanks might take him but it was a kind of abstract hope. I knew it wouldn’t happen because the Yanks simply wouldn’t want to make that investment.
When Hal and Hank took over it was unclear what was going to happen. It was going to take time to see enough of what they’d do to draw conclusions.
And it’s been around 5 years. We’ve gotten a decent picture.
What’s striking to me looking back at this is how globally the Yanks have decreased spending. Roughly after the Brackman pick the yanks stopped spending big on the draft – even before the new spending rules came in place. They stopped spending big on the international draft as well – again before the new spending rules came in place.
Investment in the major league level – that’s been well chronicled. But ownership has decreased spending at multiple levels. Even at levels that would produce growth in the future.
The Yankees could really use Nick Castellanos right now – even just to trade for Justin Upton.
But they don’t have him. Detroit does.
You stop making those kinds of investments because you are very focused on maximizing margins and in turn cash flow.
Organizations who behave this way are at risk for either taking a generic “management” point of view where you don’t need to understand much of what the business does in substance past looking at a a spread sheet or are being prepared to be sold.
blake November 13th, 2012 at 9:45 pm
Jerkface says:
November 13, 2012 at 9:42 pm
Heyward essentially went from AA to the majors.
Yup….that actually wasn’t the plan but he just killed it so much in ST that year that Cox made them take him north
———
Let’s hope Heathcott forces their hand. That would be something.
Hal loves his spreadsheets and his #’s.
He said as much.
I’d say he is pretty focused on the bottom line.
RNolasco47
Huh?…….
LoMoMarlins
I bet Canadians are feeling a little better about NAFTA tonight…
“He was drafted in 2010 and at the time he was considered to be one of the best pure hitting high schooler in the draft. He didn’t get taken until the supplemental round however due to his price”
He was taken 44th overall…..Cito Culver was taken 32nd
MTU,
The peasants are revolting. They certainly are.
“I bet Canadians are feeling a little better about NAFTA tonight…”
People of Miami feel like it’s SHAFTA.
CB, good point. It’s been my contention that the Steins are preparing this franchise for sale. That makes the most sense.
Mac-
OK then. It’s time for Levine to whisper in Hal’s ear that there’s a problem down on the Dell.
That the natives are restless.
Tucker-
Maybe the next owner will have a passion for baseball and winning then.
Sell the Yankees to Mark Cuban.
Let’s hope for a sale and quickly. Save the franchise by selling like George did by buying.
A few thoughts:
1. Marlins are a joke. Jeff Loria destroyed the credibility of the Expos before ruining the franchise and he’s doing the same thing in Florida. That the tax payers of Miami paid for that stadium which will now be filled with minor leaguers is a travesty.
2. If Johnson and Morrow are able to stay healthy that’s a deep, young and talented rotation and their lineup is outstanding:
SS Reyes
2B Bonifacio
RF Jose Bautista
DH/1B Edwin Encarnacion
1B/DH Adam Lind/free agent
3B Brett Lawrie
CF Colby Rasmus
C J.P. Arencibia
LF Free agent/Rajai Davis
3. How stupid does John Farrell feel right now?
4. Giancarlo Stanton is right now on the phone with his agent demanding a trade.
5. Torii Hunter is going to sign with the Dodgers
6. The Rangers are probably on the phone with the Marlins trying to get Hecciveria to use in a deal for J-Ups.
Jeter wants to be an owner … We know he has a passion for winning …
“What direction would you like to see them go and what would be your first few key moves ?????/”
Pat,
It’s difficult to say as it’s unclear what the organization’s priorities are for the intermediate term. The picture really fits well with the club being prepared for a sale.
But as a fan – I think the club needs to: 1) beg Kuroda to come back. If it takes 1 yr 18M – do it. They are in a world of trouble without him. Replacing him will be inordinately expensive if not practically impossible for what they have in the budget 2) trade Granderson; 3) Explore the market for Cano; 4) See if there’s any interest in trading Tex given how much teams are looking to improve.
If they are able to bring back Kuroda and Pettite they need to also explore trading Hughes or Nova. I’d see what a package of Granderson and Hughes/Nova would bring back.
I wouldn’t do all of those – but I’d explore all of them. The time for being “in between” with these legacy costs and thinking you’re ok for the future has passed.
Others moves I’d make are long standing ones that won’t happen. I’d invest very, very heavily in domestic and international scouting and hire top notch statisticians to run a quantitative department in the organization.
I would think Arencibia has a strong chance to go next for left field help. Enjoy Boston, John F.,…at least Wade Boggs said up front, ” F Canada.” ( Is that what falls out of one’s mouth post 60 Miller Lites ? )
Biggest trade here since McGriff, Fernandez / Alomar, Carter
nickcafardo
Source: Red Sox made a push for both Jose Reyes and Josh Johnson, but Jays just blew Marlins away.
Jeter and A-Rod together.
@nickcafardo: Source: Red Sox made a push for both Jose Reyes and Josh Johnson, but Jays just blew Marlins away.
Source: Cashman talked to Raul Ibanez then took a nap in his office
A forecast by the media of a second division team will cause significant income loss, I have to believe. I’m not sure they believe that yet. It will be sudden and dramatic. Fans already have a bad taste from the season’s end. Once the NY principal papers explain where this is headed, that will start the consequences flowing.
5. Torii Hunter is going to sign with the Dodgers”
Tigers or Rangers
Blake-
I was very hopeful when Hal took over. Smart guy, doesn’t meddle in baseball affairs. I figured Hal’s checkbook and Cashman’s baseball smarts and the organizational philosophy of investing in the farm would be a sustainable, winning combination.
I was wrong.
The team stopped investing in the draft as well as internationally. Now hey are limited by how much they can spend.
But Hal’s spreadsheet looks better.
Others moves I’d make are long standing ones that won’t happen. I’d invest very, very heavily in domestic and international scouting and hire top notch statisticians to run a quantitative department in the organization.
–
Don’t need Nate Silver to know the Yankees are in trouble, but we could use Nate Silver in the quantitative department
Reading that article where the Yankees had like half as many scouts as the Rays/Red Sox was always depressing. We should have the most eyes on the rest of baseball & all over the world. Academies in every country which plays baseball. Academies in countries that are yet to play baseball. We should have 1 scout at every NPB game, every KBO game, every TWB game.
CB….I still believe that The NY Yankees will be on the market within the next 5 years…..Everything they’re doing rings of Corporate sale……I’ve seen this up close from my days of consulting at The Corp level…….I’m not advocating they scale down to the point of being The Marlins or The Expos….However I can see them reducing overhead to pump up their marketability and still have an inexpensive yet promising future with young players…..Extend Hughes, extend Joba and move Granderson and shop Cano…….The win now menatlity requires additional dough and long term contracts and that’s not good for selling the club ……..Good to see you as always
One of my concerns this off season is that Hal and Levine will force some stupid move trading a bunch of kids for some marginal trade to continue with the pretense that this is a well honed machine on the cusp of winning multiple world series.
The possibility for dumb is exceedingly high this off season because they know how difficult selling tickets for a visibly “sub-par”/boring team will be in the expensive sections.
Mac-
You don’t need to be a fortune teller to read the tea leaves.
Or a handwriting expert to read the writing on the wall.
The Yanks will let Granderson walk for a draft pick and they’ll sign Cano to a bad contract and then complain about it 5 years from now and refuse to do anything because of it…..prepare yourselves
CB,
All of those moves need to be considered. I don’t pretend to know the value of the players in a trade, but I have to believe Granderson is worth far more than a draft pick and Cano far more than that.
They are still seemingly stuck in the past while facing a changed landscape for the future. I see no sign of a coherent policy or direction.
I think you express much of what I wish the team would do.
Blake-
I’m preparing myself for the next owner.
“One of my concerns this off season is that Hal and Levine will force some stupid move trading a bunch of kids for some marginal trade to continue with the pretense that this is a well honed machine on the cusp of winning multiple world series.”
Matt Garza….come in down
“Reading that article where the Yankees had like half as many scouts as the Rays/Red Sox was always depressing.”
It’s simply awful and inexcusable. Dumb beyond belief.
But why spend 100K on another FTE when you can remove that row from the spread sheet and you’ve magically increased profits for the year by 100K.
That’s literally the level of thinking that I believe is going on right now. It’s generic “management” almost like you find after take overs/ buy outs.
“They are still seemingly stuck in the past while facing a changed landscape for the future. I see no sign of a coherent policy or direction.”
Get under 189 at all costs.
That’s the policy. That’s the direction.
It isn’t the one you prefer but it’s there. In full force.
Austinmac, exactly.
Sustained media attention on this bare-bones spending philosophy is the only thing that will pressure the FO to assess it’s course.
Keep in mind, this is the first offseason where the national media has picked up on the Yanks spendthrift ways. It’s been going on for three years.but even last year, the Yanks were tied to every big-name free agent … Not this year. The national media finally believes that the Yanks are in cost cutting mode.
Not only will this strategy hurt the Yanks revenue, it will also generate hope in other corners in the AL East. Perennial doormats like the Orioles and Rays no longer fear the Yanks. And you know what? They are right.
As of tonight, the Yanks are the fourth best team in the division.
MTU,
The moving finger having writ moves on. I have always wanted, for no apparent reason, to work that into a conversation.:)
“However I can see them reducing overhead to pump up their marketability and still have an inexpensive yet promising future with young players…..Extend Hughes, extend Joba and move Granderson and shop Cano…….”
Pat,
That’s what it honestly feels like. I know you’ve brought up the issue of a sale some time ago. I felt like it was an open issue – didn’t have enough data.
But that data is there now. It’s the simplest explanation for what we’re seeing.
They want to maximize cash flow to maximize their selling price and make sure that a new group that may have to take on enormous leverage can service the debt.
Oh joy. That will be fun to watch.
Mac-
Pretty cool counselor. I’m not trying to top that one.
“The Yanks will let Granderson walk for a draft pick and they’ll sign Cano to a bad contract and then complain about it 5 years from now and refuse to do anything because of it…..prepare yourselves”
Most likely outcome. Agree there. Cano will be the superstar “face” to anchor a possible sale or “put fannies in the seats.”
CB,
On a different note…. What do you think of the wave of position players the yanks have coming? Personally I feel like that group may make or break the club for the next few years if they continue on the current path….because they aren’t spending money anymore and impact players just aren’t as available as they used to ……
They really really need at least a couple of those position players to hit and then obviously they need the young pitching including Pineda to pan out
Tucker,
You are so correct. In every other year, the media connected the Yankees to all free agents. Now, I see many pundits shaking their heads. I give it until after the winter meetings when Hal should step away from the electric fan.
” hire top notch statisticians to run a quantitative department in the organization.”
————————————————————-
CB-
Exactly what the Rays have done with their analysts,the past few years in utilizing “The Shift” against teams like the Yankees, whose lefties were mostly incapapble or unwilling to hit it the other way. Of course it takes a good group of pitchers to pitch it to maximize the chance that the batter hits into the shift, which the Rays pitchers were taught to do.
How much does Hal get if McCourt got what he did for the Men in blue ?
A King’s ransom. Get out before the Economy goes into the tank.
Better hurry Hal.
Last winter I remember Blake asked me if I’d trade Montero for Profar.
Because Montero was further along in his development and Profar was still so early as of last winter I said no
((((
Hate you blake!!!!!!
“Sustained media attention on this bare-bones spending philosophy is the only thing that will pressure the FO to assess it’s course.”
This is part of what worries me. There’s a high probability that the “natural” response of this FO to that kind of public scrutiny will be – dumb.
CB,
I saw Profar play in the Sallly league last year….you could tell in 5 minutes he’s a star….I was trying to figure out the whole game how the Yanks could get him
Every team in baseball will get an extra 25 million starting in 2014 from the new MLB TV. The Marlins don’t even have 25 million on the books for 2014
This big trade has highlighted the issue of the Yankee’s future plans and stimulated some great discussion.
I’m thankful for that.
And thankful to those of you who might be seeing something that was
heretofore not totally spelled out.
I really think we’re onto to something.
We got you now Hal. We caught you.
It is pretty amazing how the ultra talented stick out quickly. I have seen a number of kids become pro athletes. They were different from the first look.
” The Marlins don’t even have $25 million on the books in 2014.”
Shhh. Don’t let Hal hear.
austinmac says:
November 13, 2012 at 10:23 pm
It is pretty amazing how the ultra talented stick out quickly. I have seen a number of kids become pro athletes. They were different from the first look.
Yea…I saw Bumgardner pitch in high school and it was funny….not even fair
“What do you think of the wave of position players the yanks have coming? ”
Blake,
In general it makes me very queasy when all of an organization’s top prospects are in the low minors – especially when it happens for a few years clustered together.
There’s just so much uncertainty.
But overall I’m hopeful about them. Especially because so many of them are up the middle talents. That said, I don’t trust the leadership at the top to necessarily use that young talent optimally.
Given how things are going – I agree with your assessment. If this group of kids doesn’t come through and do so in a major way or are traded for the right high upside cost controlled young talent – the organization is in major trouble.
So much of the organization’s competitive future hinges on Heathcott, Wiliams and Sanchez not only panning out – but turning into all stars/ border line all stars.
All that is of course contingent on at least some of the young pitching panning out on top of the position players.
Even if the team wants to spend big in free agency it’s not as if any organization can even be certain that there will be talent worth spending on. Too many players – position players in particular – get locked up early now.
On another note- I’d really like to see the organization move Gumbs to SS. Wish they’d done it before.
Hal has that 25 million earmarked for a private island off the coast of somewhere beautiful
“On another note- I’d really like to see the organization move Gumbs to SS. Wish they’d done it before.”
At this point they have to try anybody who could play there….I don’t know where they are getting Jeter’s replacement when that time does come
“Every team in baseball will get an extra 25 million starting in 2014 from the new MLB TV. The Marlins don’t even have 25 million on the books for 2014″
Loria is a flat out thief. He bilked the tax payers of Florida for millions so that he can sit back and collect his revenue sharing hand outs.
In what industry are you literally guaranteed profits.
Listening to owners act as “masters of the universe” who are fully committed to free enterprise and competition is sickening.
CB
But as a fan – I think the club needs to: 1) beg Kuroda to come back. If it takes 1 yr 18M – do it. They are in a world of trouble without him. Replacing him will be inordinately expensive if not practically impossible for what they have in the budget 2) trade Granderson; 3) Explore the market for Cano; 4) See if there’s any interest in trading Tex given how much teams are looking to improve.
————————————–
Yes.
…Yes.
All of this would be doable, IMO. They do have options… but now that I think about it, I’m not sure when the last time the Yankees pulled off a big move was that didn’t involve straight cash. Their blockbusters are usually FAs.
Hal plans to push Arod off the fiscal cliff
Blake-
Then you’d better stop raggin’ on him or you’ll never get to see it.
Do you know I lived on a tropical Island once ?
Quit my job. Walked away. And me and the Mrs. played Mr. and Mrs. beach bum and bumette.
We built a house high up on a hill overlooking the Carribean.
Did the whole thing on a shoestring.
See. Hal aint got nothin’ on me.
I think if the Yankees don’t think they can make any drastic personnel moves, they should let every hole in the line-up be filled by a player from the minors lol.
“I saw Profar play in the Sallly league last year….you could tell in 5 minutes he’s a star….I was trying to figure out the whole game how the Yanks could get him”
Blake,
First time I really had a chance to see him I thought I was going to fall out of my chair.
It actually made me sad because he was a world away from what the Yankees had and the kind of talent you can no longer count on buying in the market.
And the kind of talent that is uncovered by a premier scouting and talent development organization – which Texas is and the Yankees are not.
“Do you know I lived on a tropical Island once ?
Quit my job. Walked away. And me and the Mrs. played Mr. and Mrs. beach bum and bumette.”
Doesn’t surprise me at all
that island has never been the same I’m sure
Blake-
The more I hear this talk the more I’d like to go back there.
“And the kind of talent that is uncovered by a premier scouting and talent development organization – which Texas is and the Yankees are not.”
How is this possible? How can the Yankees not have the best and most scouts ?
“.I don’t know where they are getting Jeter’s replacement when that time does come”
I’ll let you in on a secret, magical special place of enchantment and wonder.
Starts with Dumpster….
Blake-
Because for a long time the Yankees just bought what they wanted.
“I’m not sure when the last time the Yankees pulled off a big move was that didn’t involve straight cash. ”
Shame,
Would have to be Granderson.
So painful watching Jackson in the playoffs…
“I’ll let you in on a secret, magical special place of enchantment and wonder.
Starts with Dumpster….”
Oh that’s Cash’s favorite
“Loria is a flat out thief. He bilked the tax payers of Florida for millions so that he can sit back and collect his revenue sharing hand outs.”
——————————————-
Then the commissioner’s office is aiding and abetting him, for allowing the Marlins to make this lopsided deal.
SJ used to say that the most fundamental thing a team needed to be able to do is to self-scout.
What happened to the Yankees ?
YT-
And you respect Smellig because……. ?
Good discussion, folks.
My main concern is the Yanks are not committing to a direction.
If hey are truly committed to 189, they should trade tradable assets and rebuild. Hire the scouts, invest in the farm system. Spend your money elsewhere in the organization to grow that new crop of players.
You are either growing toward a championship or you should tear down to your foundation and start over.
The Yanks are caught between. They don’t want to spend 189 but they don’t want to risk rebuilding and the lost revenue that would entail. That would not look good on the books for the eventual sale.
So they will field a decent team that does not have much hope of winning a world series.
“How is this possible? How can the Yankees not have the best and most scouts ?”
There’s a view of the world where what really matters is management. Whether you run say GE or Home Depot it doesn’t matter. Where you can really just sit there and look at a spread sheet and chalk up things to “waste.” You can understand very little about the actual business you run but demand “accountability” for every line on that spread sheet.
Every row you can cut out of the spread sheet will literally make your yearly expected profits magically increase at the bottom of the Excel sheet.
This point of view can work if you’re really, really smart or really, really lucky. Otherwise….
I think that’s what’s going on with the Yanks. That’s how they are being run. Lines on the spread sheet magically disappear tickling fingers with delight.
Tucker-
with the way the AL East is evolving I’m not sure the Yankees can even do that.
“So painful watching Jackson in the playoffs…”
As Jackson led off…..Scherzer dominated…..Coke closed us out and Granderson swung at another breaking ball in the dirt you had to sit there and wonder what both Cashman and
dombrowski were thinking.
CB – I’m not saying it wasn’t a big move for us as an org, and maybe it’s just semantics at work here, but would you call that a blockbuster? I feel like the Yanks don’t do deals like what we’re seeing with the Rays and Marlins here because generally they wouldn’t need to….
“SJ used to say that the most fundamental thing a team needed to be able to do is to self-scout.”
SJ was right. That is the most important thing. That’s where it starts.
There’s perhaps never been a more important principle stated in baseball. The person who first said that was Branch Rickey.
Some things don’t change in baseball.
The Yankees need their own Branch Rickey.
Branch Rickey never chalked up winning to finding “big hairy monsters.”
Good night everyone.
“I think that’s what’s going on with the Yanks. That’s how they are being run. Lines on the spread sheet magically disappear tickling fingers with delight.”
Well they had better start running a baseball team again….
I think it’ll be interesting to start seeing the response from the org when the media does start to make the spending a story. It’s really only a matter of time and I think it probably begins once ST starts because up until that point I think people will still expect the Yankees to be players.
I’m just curious to see how Cash starts to respond to going from getting criticized for having the highest payroll to being criticized for cutting it lol.. he won’t like that. At least we can be entertained by something
Night CB.
MTU,
I don’t have a private island but I have a row boat that you could probably paddle to somewhere sorta nice if you want
I’m out too…..I’ll dream of a giant void of blackness
Signifying the Yankees future
Damn, that CB is a bright guy, erudite well reasoned, etc. A pleasure reading his posts.
One thing I’d like to add. When the Yankees draft was put on budget, they no longer had the money to go after college players and were forced to draft and gamble on HS players. This increased the risk of flame outs and due to the fact they were losing at least two years in development, this created the hole in the minors at the present time, at the AA, AAA levels. From the people that brought you the A Rod, Soriano contracts.
Good night everyone.
Tonight’s discussion was both enlightening as well as depressing.
I’m going to dream of better times in Yankeeland, or failing that, of a beautiful tropical island.
See you on the sunnyside.
Goodnight all. See you at the Breakfast Club.
I heard more wisdom from CB tonight than from Cashman in twelve years.
There’s an interesting trend going on right now in baseball with regards to teams with high payrolls. Its called “closing the wallets”. Conversely, there’s a faction of small money market teams that have the financial flexibility of opening up their wallets and absorbing payroll.
Just look at all of the teams that don’t give a damn and put the prospects up to make a deal happen. It happens every off-season. There’s always that one team that “go’s for it.”
Yes it was pretty sucky watching Granderson vs Jackson in the playoffs. On the other hand it was pretty awesome in 2011 watching Grandy hit .262/.364/.552 with 41 bombs and Jackson become basically a replacement hitter.
I understand the frustration of that trade now that Jackson is a great player, just trying to give a little perspective…
There’s an interesting trend going on right now in baseball with regards to teams with high payrolls. Its called “closing the wallets”.
–
Except for the Dodgers, Tigers
What I would like to see is a comprehensive examination on all lines of spending within the organization.
189 is the headline, but the cuts go deeper. The lack of spending on IFAs, cutbacks in overall draft spending, scouting cuts, player development,’etc.
The 189 was the public face, the goal if you will, for cuts that have been takin place for three plus years.
The Boston Globe blew the story open on beer and chickengate. It really would be nice if somebody took amused, comprehensive look at all aspects of the Yankees spending.
It would make for a very interesting article, Tucker.
It’s a not that difficult to get a few pitchers to tell you that they enjoy beer and chicken from time to time. Getting a full report of the Yankees finances would be a lot more difficult. And the general public really wouldn’t care
Great seeing CB around tonight.
I also think it’s time for Yankees fans who support this team via season tickets to seriously re-evaluate that choice.
If the spoiled passionless owners are just trying to tidy up the books for a profitable sale, I certainly don’t want to help them any longer.
This is what it looks like to watch a great team be run into the ground by people owning it that don’t want it.
Passing on Cespedes, Darvish, Chapman, etc. never would’ve happened under George.
What some of us in here realized over the past few seasons is the way the team goes about it’s business, the way they held the players accountable, has slowly been eroding.
Something dramatic needs to happen with this team. If it’s going to be sold, make it sooner rather than later so we can have an owner that wants to win on the field and not in the ledger sheet.
You think the fans on this blog were conflicted “rooting” for this team this year? Wait’ll you get a load of what goes on in here next year.
This is what it felt like to grow up loving Star Wars only many years later end up sitting in the theater watching The Phantom Menace wanting to strangle George Lucas who laughed all the way to the bank.
Patrick,
If one could get the information and across the board cuts are shown, a good reporter can press a point to the Yankee fans. Public relations is always critical.
Unfortunately most journalists nowadays are not really investigative or looking to write those kind of exposes. Truly, truly unfortunate.
What’s happening to this organization is very sad. As CB said above, they have had 5 years to demonstrate how they’re going to run the Yankees after taking over for George, It’s becoming heartbreaking and I don’t have comfort that it won’t get worse. With that said, a lot can happen quickly, as we saw again tonight with Miami/Toronto. Before anybody declares disaster, let’s just see what happens.
I like to see my Yankees competitive as much as the next guy and I’d hate to have to go through the 80′s again but historically, the Yankees don’t make the playoffs every year.
I am also not particularly happy with the decisions made on this team but then again it’s not my team.
I am going to follow this team whether they are competitive or not. It has been more fun when they are competitive but a fan is a fan.
I’ve been saying all along to trade cano,and granderson,and not many agreed.
Now,a lot more people are open to it.
There is a way to get better,younger,lower payroll,and still have a financial advantage because most teams still won’t spend 189,and are now spending money that they will be getting from tv deals.
So spending money they don’t have yet.
You trade cano,and granderson because they will become expensive,or you lose them for a far away pick,when you can get much more than that now,and what you get now is more advanced prospects.
In addition,Cano,and granderson gave you their best years for the most part.
You trade the two for a nice package of almost ready prospects,then spend in fa where it makes sense,and look at other players like tex,and arod to move,while collecting draft picks.
We have a nice group of prospects,and in addition to what cano,granderson can get us,and our draft picks,financial might,we can build a powerhouse.
The Yankees have themselves to blame being in the position their in.
THe team is stuck is because of Arod and Tex and if they were what we thought they’d be we’d be in much better shape. the problem is Arod has becom an average player and tex is just defense with an occasional HR. Most of his HR’s this year didn’t even matter. Only the boston one stands out and I remember maybe one other time he tied the game. besides the point.. we have 55million on on first and 3rd and if they were paid what their production is it would be -40million. YOu know what we can do with 40 million a year ??? and again .. we fans are being punished by the yankees stupidity with arod. makes me ill !!!
face it we have idiot owners, idiot gm, idiot manager and idiot players.. 200 million worth of idiots !!!!!!!!!!! LOL
If the Dodgers were still in Brooklyn, the Yankees would be in big, big trouble.
post vanished again. great.
Guys – I know we are all marvelling at the flexibility other teams seem to have that we seemingly don’t, but before we proclaim Reyes the MVP, remember how injury prone his legs are and how many games he’s likely to miss on that turf. I think Toronto can’t help but score more runs next year, but who’s to say guys like Arencibia and Lawrie haven’t already peaked? If they were Yankees, that’s exactly what this board would be saying. Buerhle back in the AL won’t play, and maybe Josh Johnson won’t be abe to stay healthy ever again.
Either convice Arod to reduce his restrictive overpaid salary or boo him out of NY. Same with Tex. sick of those two 3 and 4 hitters playing like garbage pretending they can carry the team.
It’s 3 years now since Arod hit .300 and 3 years since tex hit above .250
That being said, I’m not relishing the prospect of Reyes getting 90 ABs against us next year either
What does he do now with the little black book he built over a year in FL? A whole season of hotties
The Yankees currently have 4 players that each are due more in 2013 than the entire Marlins payroll…
Loria is a sleazebag, and his BFF Selig is his accomplice.
I am going to have my roomate create a website petition for Arod to reduce his salary. Tell Arod we’d love to keep you here in NY if you lower your salary to 10mil.. same for The Coughing guy.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees
love this pic !!! says 1000 words
The vibe around the game was that after winning in 09, the front office felt they could squeze one more ring out of Jeter group with a few tweeks, hence the Granderson , Vasquez trades….However once they whiffed twice on Cliff Lee it just seemed to me that the mindset was to run out the clock until Derek and Mariano hung them up……When they passed on Cespedes and to some degree Yu Darvish ( posting fee freaked Hal out ) , the handwriting was becoming very visable on the wall……I’ve asked this in the past, does anybody here know what the Yankee Stadium mortgage payments are ???? That’s what seperates them from The Dodgers as the new ownership group owns everything outright and they’ll be making huge money with the new TV deal…..Then there’s the 4 million or so who’ll be flocking to Chavez Ravine
Anyone think that the Jays might turn around and flip Reyes to AZ now for Upton?
That would be wild.
Never mind Reyes is owed to much money. Scratch that.
I don’t see how driving the team to mediocrity is going to pump up any potential sale price. They’re not that stupid. Or are they?
The Yankees got their stadium with tax free bonds from NYC so I don’t see how the mortgage could be that bad. They got hefty breaks on revenue sharing as well because of the new stadium.
It would hurt short term, but they really should try to use Cano to unload Arod, if at all possible. That would get rid of a lot of bad money. You could get two really good players for what Arod takes from the budget, and you wouldn’t sign Cano until he was 38 or more. Restart from almost scratch. It might take a year or more to get the right players to spend money on, but it would be worth it imo.
CB November 13th, 2012 at 10:05 pm
One of my concerns this off season is that Hal and Levine will force some stupid move trading a bunch of kids for some marginal trade to continue with the pretense that this is a well honed machine on the cusp of winning multiple world series.
The possibility for dumb is exceedingly high this off season because they know how difficult selling tickets for a visibly “sub-par”/boring team will be in the expensive sections.
______
This.
The stadium revenue break was only good for a few years I believe and regardless of the tax free bonds, the 1.5 billion is going to be paid back by the club during the tenure of their lease, or there about…..So once again does anyone really know how many millions of dollars they pay every month ????? It’s a huge nut one has to think
I don’t see the yanks for sale in the imminent future. I think the self imposing mandate has lot to do an organizational thoughts that the Yankee can compete with less. This probably is echoed from Hal to levine and endorsed by Cash. I think in no small part, Cashman want to prove he can orchestrate the skill sets of a gm who can operate under modest payroll and winning via ways of self replenishment from the farm and shrew FA investments.
But, the empirical evidences suggest otherwise. The road to YS is littered unrealized potentials and miss opportunities what one would assume as risk avoidance.
all of which leaves me with low confidence in Yankees ability to sustain long term success goinf forward unless something drastic happens, which doesn’t appear so imo.
The quality of the team may not be of utmost importance if a large number of the expensive season tickets are being bought by corporate types that will by them regardless to hand out to customers, that are just written off as business expenses. How many rich individuals actually buy season tickets inside the moat? I’d guess it’s mostly business deals. Those seats may be half empty, but I bet a lot of them are paid for, the tickets just aren’t used, the people don’t show up, or they sort of watch the game in ritzier parts of the stadium.
JS, ys entertainment is driven by two things. Winning and Stars… I think as we stand on nov 14, yanks may be lacking in both. JMO though. i don’t think the season tickets will suffered as much as TV rating which is in no small part to this cashcow.
barring injuries, i am digging this Ryu guy from kbo, I think he will do well in tinsel town. he reminds me a lot of David Wells with a better repertoire and maybe a mile off the fb.
oh yeah, I see the Jays and Loria consummated a small trade tonight… jays looks to be clear winner though it’s probably because i don’t recognize half the names that went the fish way.
but more importantly, is Stanton available? That’s a beast there.
Pat M. November 14th, 2012 at 1:04 am
The stadium revenue break was only good for a few years I believe and regardless of the tax free bonds, the 1.5 billion is going to be paid back by the club during the tenure of their lease, or there about…..So once again does anyone really know how many millions of dollars they pay every month ????? It’s a huge nut one has to think
—
Old article, but good read:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/1...../index.htm
Cashmoney…..I read the other day that The LA Lakers as things are right now will be writing a check for 30 million dallars for violating the new Lux Tax rules ( 100 milion dollar payroll )…….Apparently this still hasn’t changed the Buss family’s outlook about wanting to win and spend the coins to do so…….However if they were going to consider putting the club on the market they wouldn’t be saddling the organization with a huge payroll which handstraps the new onwership’s hands …….Hal is all about business first and somewhere down the line, he’s a fan or a fan’s owner……Their seat ticket pricing drove away the very fans who helped build the clubs value back in the mid-late 90′s……..That was the backbone to the club’s fianacial sucess……When they start becoming a .550 ballclub the Stadium will seat about 30 k at the most…….Ownership greed will in the end accelerate thhe Yanks decline….They need to get back to what made them successful on the field as well as bring back the bluecollar type fans to get them back to square one…….Sacrifice the next few years and acquire good young players by moving Granderson and possibly Cano who’s going to demand 175-180 million dollar contract……..
Stanton is still really cheap, so he would probably have to complain excessively to be traded.
The Marlins listed everyone that was available at the recent GM meetings, and Giancarlo was not on the list.
Pat M, I think definitely is number guy first and quite frankly i don’t know if he likes baseball. Anywho, strangely enough the Yankees are in a position maybe rebuilding really would serve them well in long term instead of impulsive buys in FA (mainly because there really isn’t much out there). The change of guards are coming and needed imo.
I really need to understand the full scope what the Yankees stands to benefit if they stay below the self imposed threshold … the question left unanswered are- would they revert back to the old ways of doing business once the punitive monetary years are over. Would the FO finally realize the importance of having good-great scouting dept and like CB suggested a first rate statistician to balance out the quantitative side.
I don’t see it, i don’t see that in Hal, Hank and Cash. I don’t see that realization. but I been wrong before. i could very well wrong again.
jacksquat….Good read and a good find…I remember that piece and I still don’t fully understand the 50 million a year debt that they are responsible for in great detail…….All I really know is that they have a huge overhead for the Stadium but I never fully understood plus I wasn’t paying close enough attention when it was explained back in 2010……The one thing that has come to bear, the whole heavy spending money to make money is no longer a sound blueprint as it once was…….I just think they’re in a jam and it’s time to start over because they’ve been nuetralized moneywise ….Well according to Hal’s mantra
Hal definitely…
anyway night gents. I just don’t see a cohesive plan…I think the FO trying to do things half way in deference to the financial side….that is no good imo.
Just had to stop by and give my two cents on that morally bankrupt slithering human refuse vomitus, Selig’s butt buddy Jeffrey Loria.
Absolutely unbelievable. The slimeball Jeffrey Loria is once again in the process of setting up armageddon for an unsuspecting baseball city. Either that or it’s reparation to Canada for screwing them out of one of their teams, though I’m not sure the good people of Montreal would consider Toronto’s windfall any victory for them. You can bet your boots that Loria is up to no good and this is just the beginning. But wait! I’m sure the commissioner’s office will want to have a say in this, ha ha ha. Just like Selig put a halt to the after-the-deadline trade of Ugeth Urbina to the Sux for a bag of balls in return! Oh yeah, seems the Expos were owned by one Jeffrey Loria at the time. The very same year that let’s see now, John Henry then-owner of the Marlins bought the Sux and sold the Marlins to one Jeffrey Loria!
(This is what Murray Chass had to say at the time about the sanctity of the Urbina trade: On a deadline day that was dominated, not unexpectedly, by the pursuit of pitchers, the Montreal Expos traded a pitcher and made club history yesterday. In trading Ugueth Urbina, their closer, to the Boston Red Sox for two young pitchers, the Expos also sent along $1 million to defray the remainder of Urbina’s salary. Imagine that, the cash-poor Expos giving rather than receiving. And to a far wealthier club no less. )
When ESPN named Loria number 9 of the top ten greediest owners in baseball, he was actually voted number 4 by the fans, 3 behind the number one fan pick for greediest owner in sports, Bud Selig.
Loria is Selig’s slimy seedy scumbag minion, and he has the full blessings of his amoral master, just as he did when he eviscerated the Montreal Expos behind the scenes while promising the people of Montreal he would do everything he could to keep the Expos in Montreal.
Loria just jammed it to the people of Miami. He waited for the new stadium to be built before he started to dismantle the team. Look for the Marlins to eventually be retracted or relocated and for John Henry’s Liverpool soccer team to find new digs in America. I guarantee you this is just the beginning. Slime doesn’t reinvent itself as beneficence.
All of that said, we are going to have one barn burner of an AL East! jmills, you have to feel like Santa just made up for every bad Christmas you ever had.
Well Mrs. Trica, I waited and you certainly didn’t disappoint regarding the Hump Jeffery Lioria……..I just knew you were going to express your position in a very restraint manner and with great clarity……..He ruined baseball in Montreal, bottom line
This is what ESPN used as a description of Loria as one of the ten greediest owners in sports:
The whole Expos-Marlins-Red Sox ownership deal looked awfully fishy. Loria failed to build a decent franchise in Montreal, so MLB bought the Expos, which Selig said were no longer worthy of existence, and then let their owner, Loria, buy another franchise. Meanwhile, Marlins owner John Henry takes his $150 million-plus chunk of change to buy a piece of the Red Sox. Is Loria interested in good teams, or just a good shell game?
And the beat goes on.
Hey Pat M! I’ve been really busy with other things but still reading Chad’s lead-ins when I get a chance so I can at least get some notion of what’s going on. I have to admit this one absoutely stopped me in my tracks.
“He ruined baseball in Montreal, bottom line”
And I fear Miami is going to become another one of his footnotes, Pat M.
Keep the fires warm, my friend. And let me know if anything major jumps off in Yankeeland, in case I don’t get to read about it first.
Check that …..Ms. Tricia……I used to wonder what Loria and Henry had on Bud because he certainly aided them in all their get richer schemes regadless who they walked on and over to do so…….
One thing that Sherman didn’t stress in the cost of Soriano is that a team not only needs to sign him to a deal, but also sacrifice a first round draft pick to do so. So a team is being asked to pay a premium for a reliever while also losing their top pick. That will drive his value down further as teams need to factor in the opportunity cost via the draft when signing him to a deal./
This Marlins situation is even sleazier than what people are portraying. The contracts for the players they are sending north were largely back-loaded, so they didn’t even pay out that much salary this year. You see numbers for their 2012 payroll, but that is really misleading since it represents the annualized average, not what it actually cost them. That should also mean that Toronto is on the hook for a larger relative proportion of those contract values.
Morning.
Last night was quite a night around here with the the return of several of our esteemed members.
Their presence was greatly appreciated. Hope they continue to comment.
The distinct impression I got from the ensuing discussion was that the Yankee’s are likely being made ready for sale somewhere down the road.
All the indicators seem to be there.
Just like when a cow is being fattened up for slaughter.
Under those circumstances the primary objective is making the animal look as attractive as possible to the potential buyer.
In a baseball setting it means that costs need to be pared as much as possible.
If Hal wants to sell I hope it’s over ASAP so the new mgmt can take the Yankees in the direction the Franchise and the Fans deserve.
Sell it to Jeter. He loves the Yankees.
Sell it to Mark Cuban. He loves to compete.
Whatever.
I really hope I’m wrong and Hal/Cashman surprise us but I doubt it.
My apologies for the long post.
Look for the Yankees to make cosmetic moves only.
Anything else will be a surprise.
Throw the dogs a bone. Nothing more.
As Marie Antoinette once said “Let them eat cake”.
Hal would be wise to remember what happened next.
In that regard, to maximize profit the Yankees should make every effort possible to delete A-Rod.
He’s basically a sunk cost at this point anyway. Dragging the ship down.
A 30 Mil/yr DH.
I agree that it makes a world of sense to shop and hopefully move Granderson too.
My bet is that they’ll tweak the team and kick the can down the road.
If the noise gets loud enough maybe they make a trade.
Dealing assets maybe no one but them would want to lose.
Prove me wrong Hal/Cash. I dare ya’.
I can see Hal sitting by the fire, playing his fiddle, will the Yankees burn.
If the Yankees FO does not make significant moves, just to get to $189, they’ll, IMO, lose much more than the tax would cost, in fans sitting it out.
Yes, we’ll always love our team, but, I’ve pledged not to buy the BB package from DIRECTV, not go to games, and not buy things like shirts and hats, nothing that will put money into Hal’s tight little pocket.
If the Jay’s can manage to stay healthy, IMO, they could be the best in the AL East. Also, remember the Red Sox have a ton of money to spend, and if they do so wisely, which is always a big question mark, they also could be near the top in the AL East. Don’t think the O’s will stand pat, they also should be improving.
With that being said, it sure makes you think, what the h*ll are the Yankees plans to remain a top team. I’m of the opinion if Hal and Co. continue to make huge profits, we’ll continue to see more and more decline and dumpster diving moves by Cashman, sad!
Al-
Good morning. Or is it ?
Anyway, If you read through last night’s discussion I can’t see how one wouldn’t come away w the distinct impression that the Yankee’s
might be sold at some point.
When that’s the objective this is the behavior you’d expect.
The Fans are 2ndary in that scenario.
I would love to be proven wrong but the indicators seem to be there, and the die might be cast.
I’d love to be wrong and to have to apologize.
It sickens me other teams are able to pull off these great trades, but, the Yankees can’t.
I’ll repeat what I’ve said numerous times; Hal, please sell the NYY to a Mark Cuban type owner, one that will put winning above cost, just like George did.
There isn’t any evidence the Yankees will do anything but add on the cheap. It does make sense if they are considering buying. I hope they do and the process isn’t interminably long.
The Yankees as we have known them is no more. They may be again but not any time soon. I can draw no other conclusion.
This is a .500 team at the moment. That may be looked upon fondly in the years ahead.
Al-
I agree. Let’s get it done. The sooner the better.
Good morning Mike.
My hope is the team will be sold, if, its to a Mark Cuban type owner.
I don’t believe the sons of George have the same love of team and game their dad did.
Someone earlier made a point that both A-Rod and Tex could re-do their contracts to be backloaded, thus giving the team more room to bring in the necessary talent.
If the Marlins are in a selling mode, why not call them today, and see what it would take to get RF Stanton, that sure would go a long way in improving the middle of the order, as well as a much needed piece in the OF.
Alright.
Now what other cheery things can we talk about this AM.
The decline of the US ?
The Mayan doomsday prophecy ?
See it’s easy.
I know little about selling a team, but it didn’t appear the Dodgers empty seats and less than stellar record influence their price. Maybe cheap payroll means more at that point than winning or drawing big crowds.
I can pretty much guarantee a significant loss of income next year from empty seats and declining revenue. The fans lack enthusiasm and optimism. Soon they will be anger.
Any of you folks out there with a few billion to spare? Everyone on the board is preferable.
Yankee fans need to voice their displeasure … The only way to get ownerships attention is in their pocketbook…..let Hal see his bottom line and write those checks to Arod with an empty stadium……
Al-
I don’t think players want to sacrfice for greedy owners.
Stanton would be a godsend but he’s cheap and the Marlins like cheap.
Mike -
I understand wanting the team to be showing major profits, if you’re intentions are to sell, but, any potential buyer will also be looking to the future, and they will want a winning team that will continue the profits growing, and not a fan base in decline.
I did write the team the other day and express my displeasure. No doubt that will fix things.
You folks are a bunch of rabble rousers.
Be quiet and get back in your seats.
Signed,
The Mgmnt
P.S. I have to at least try to lighten up the mood.
Another article from the Miami Herald-Fans and Players react to the trade:
http://www.miamiherald.com/201.....other.html
From Giancarlo Stanton on Twitter: “Alright, I’m pissed off!!! Plain & Simple.”
The Marlins don’t appear to be interested in trading Stanton. Even if they did, we lack the pieces to deal as we all know.
Mike -
I’d offer them a home town boy, A-Rod for Stanton, with the Yankees paying all but $10M per year of his contract. Yes, its a big bullet to bite, but, it could open many productive doors going forward.
A-Rod is loved in Miami, and could help them draw in more fans, and if he does ever get close to the HR record, he’d be a huge draw there.
Al-
That’s a good point but everyone knows the value of the Yankee brand.
Whether or not it looks good at that moment or not.
Look at what GMS did with it.
It isn’t hard to strike gold when you own the gold mine.
The Marlins only have one more expensive player-Ricky Nolasco.
Giancarlo changed his avatar from him marlins uniform to just a head shot of him
Al-
Even at that too expensive.
A-Rod would never wave his no trade to go to that loser of a team anyway.
Yankee Trader says:
November 14, 2012 at 7:37 am
The Marlins only have one more expensive player-Ricky Nolasco.
They should check on him anyway
Add either Hughes or Nova to my deal above, they did lose a SP afterall.
sp: waive
Mike -
Tell A-Rod Adams is the starting 3B next year, and he may get into 2 or 3 games a week as DH, against LHP only. That, and going home, might be enough to just play out his contract.
“I’d offer them a home town boy, A-Rod for Stanton, with the Yankees paying all but $10M per year of his contract. Yes, its a big bullet to bite, but, it could open many productive doors going forward.”
I don’t think the marlins are trading one of the best young players in baseball for Arod
I don’t think the Marlins have much interest in fielding a competitive team.
The Miami fans should abandon Loria. That whole City was snookered.
It’s obvious that no real long term intention to build a franchise exists.
Loria has a bad history. He should be dealt with.
Too bad Loria already got what he wanted.
He’s like a Madoff. A crook.
MTU November 14th, 2012 at 7:29 am
Alright.
Now what other cheery things can we talk about this AM.
The decline of the US ?
The Mayan doomsday prophecy ?
See it’s easy.
*********************************************************
Didn’t that already come to pass, I think it was Nov. 6
They might could get the Marlins to take Arod if they gave nothing in return and the Yankees paid like 80% of his contract…..but even then Arod wouldn’t wave his no trade now.
The best chance to move Arod now is one of te LA teams most likely
The Red Sox and Marlins were able to pull off these trades because they don’t issue NT clauses in their contracts.
Jose Reyes, playing on turf, will turn singles into doubles and doubles into triples after he steals third, on our current starting catcher-Eli Whiteside.
MTU,
We still have the financial cliff to plummet over….so there’s that to look forward to
No Al.
Everything is just peachy.
“The Red Sox and Marlins were able to pull off these trades because they don’t issue NT clauses in their contracts.”
Crawford and Beckett both waved no trade rights to get outta Boston
Yes Blake.
I almost forgot about that one.
You have MLB to blame for allowing Loria to continue being an owner, after all the damage he’s done, where ever he’s been.
This type of owner is OK, but, MLB keeps trying to deny Mark Cuban the right to own a ML team. They tried that with George at one time, and George brought baseball back to new life, and not just in NY.
The problem with Stanton is that even if he demands a trade and they do move him…..there are a whole bunch if teams that would jump in and top anything the yanks could offer…..Texas would be all over that….
Anyone who wants to come to my Island just let me know.
We’ll work it out.
The Dodgers are spending.
The Jays are spending.
The Halos are spending.
The Sux are spending.
The Tigers are spending.
The Yankees aren’t spending.
Blake-
The Yankees would have to take back Vernon Wells from the Angels, who I believe also has a NT.
I’m beginning to wonder if Cashman’s next call will be to Theo for Alfonso Soriano. Owed 18M X 2. Cubs pick up 2/3rds, 24M and get a prospect, then the Yankees bring back Ichiro and voila the outfield problem is………………………………………………..Not solved!
Mike -
I thought Fantacy Island was in DC, not Utah, lol.
Mark Cuban would be awesome…..he wouldn’t waste money and he’d keep them on a budget but he’d also be bold and he’d have a great will to win…..he’d be incredible …..as long as Selig is around though can’t see it happening
Fantasy Dah
Trader,
Please no……I do worth that if Kuroda leaves that Theo will sell Garza to Cashman for way too much
YT-
The only problem that Hal wants solved is how to fatten up his prize steer for eventual sale.
That does not mean acquiring any more cattle for the Ranch.
The herd is being pared back not added to.
Comprendo Hombre ?
Nolasco’s contract ends in 2013 so he is a possibility if Kuroda leaves, I suppose. He is not nearly as good, but this team needs warm bodies at this point. Or as Hal says, luke warm is fine.
Selig should nix this deal…..it’s gonna kill the marlins franchise ….but he won’t
blake -
I’d sure enjoy Mark Cuban taking MLB to federal court if Selig continues to block him from buying a MLB team. Just can’t wait for Bud to say good-bye.
Blake-
Cuban is not part of the good old boys network.
YT,
The Yankees are not picking up Soriano’s big 2014 salary. They shouldn’t.
blake -
Selig has approved every Loria deal, they’re in bed together. Every team Loria has been a part of got raped by him.
Blake-
You’re right. My bad. I thought I had read that the RS dont issue NT clauses.
I now have a solution where players on the Yankees will waive their NT clauses to leave. Fire Girardi, hire Bobby Valentine.
@Ken_Rosenthal: From late last night: My thoughts on why Loria and the #Marlins finally have gone too far. http://t.co/wVM0DB9u
Kenny rips into Loria
As Garfield said, “Whatever”.
What sucks is that the marlins get to sit back and now take in revenue sharing money ….the 25 million each team gets from the TV deal etc……it’s a joke
Austinmac-
Not endorsing this, but if the Cubs pick up 12M/year of the 18M/year his [Soriano's]AAV is 6M for each of 2013 and 2014. Correct?
This deal does carry risk for the Jays….Buerle has terrible numbers against AL east teams in his career…Johnson is always an injury risk and is a FA after 2013 and Reyes always has the leg injuries and playing on turf can’t help those…….
But there is a scenario where it all comes up roses for them and they are very good in 2013
@Joelsherman1: Column http://t.co/QSr3CJt1 #Bluejays are early winter champs. Like #Marlins last yr and #Redsox yr b4. Mmmm, what do they have in common?
Blake-
It was a bold move.
The Jays needed pitching. Especially an Ace. Johnson is that.
Beurhle is solid.
It does depend on them staying healthy but they didn’t want to be left out in the cold.
If things break right they’ll be right there.
Where will we be the way we’re going ?
Poor Tino Martinez. Hired to be the batting instructor and now he gets to instruct players “pissed” off at still wearing the Marlin’s uniform.
Big AL,
“Someone earlier made a point that both A-Rod and Tex could re-do their contracts to be backloaded, thus giving the team more room to bring in the necessary talent.
”
Doing a backloaded deal has no impact on the 189mm. The tax is based off AAV.
Therefore, you would actually have to extend them, adding years where they are paid 500K to bring th AAV down. This is similar to the Devils and Ilya K. But the NHL hit the Devils with a heavy fine and removed some draft picks.
As mentioned above, the issue is Hal and his tight pocktes.
I don’t think anyone is saying the Yankees NEED to spend to win, but since Cashman has done nothing to promote building from within in 14 years and our minors are spotty, at best, you need to spend until you can rebuild the farm.
Set a realistic deadline – 2018 (after Arod, Tex, and CC are off the books)
Hire a new director of scouting and talent development. Relieve Cashman of that responsibility.
Let Cashman buy players, since that is all he is good for.
Trades, involving minor leaguers, must be cleared through this new director.
Hal and Hank created this payroll mess.
They shouldn’t make the fans pay for their bad negotation skills.
blake -
If teams won on paper, the Giants would never have won the 2 WS they recently did.
Yunel Escobar should be a fan favorite Miami right
“If teams won on paper, the Giants would never have won the 2 WS they recently did.”
Maybe not the first one….but they were pretty darn good on paper this year…….awesome rotation….. The MVP in Posey, Pence, Panda, etc
brianlopez22 November 14th, 2012 at 8:08 am
************************************************
Great points!
Yea I wonder if Tino is a happy camper right now? He probably doesn’t care…..expectations will be nothing and he can work with youngsters
“Hal and Hank created this payroll mess.
They shouldn’t make the fans pay for their bad negotation skills.”
Only way to get their attention is in their pocket book
The Jays were 73-89 last year with a decimated starting staff and no Bautista.
Let’s say it’s going to take 95 wins to make the playoffs again and the WC’s need 93 wins again. At this point in time only the Jays in the AL East, if the trade goes thru, have made the most significant moves.
Can a healthy Jays team get an extra 20-22 wins this season?
blake -
When the Giants lost Melky, a big part of their offense, I thought they might get hurt, but they continued to win.
I still don’t believe, on paper, they were the best team in the NL, perhaps just a bit luckier than others. The Nats should have been the NL team in the WS.
Can a healthy Jays team get an extra 20-22 wins this season?
———–
Without a doubt I’d say. The only doubt is….health.
“Can a healthy Jays team get an extra 20-22 wins this season?”
If Johnson stays healthy, if Romero bounces back, if Bautista is healthy, if Morrow stays healthy ….etc then yes…..but a lot of things will have to be answered yes for it to happen. They could be very good if things fall right
YT -
I believe the answer to you’re question is; Yes.
” The Nats should have been the NL team in the WS.”
That was over when they say their best pitcher
BTW Kyuji Fujikawa of the Hanshin Tigers is now officially an unrestricted free agent.
The Yankees need to hurry and sign Jonesy and Freddy to counter this move by the Jays
blake -
Not going to happen, they cost to much! LOL
Blake-
The Yankees are bold too.
They’re working on Raul aren’t they ?
Kyuji Fujikawa is planning to (may already have) tour facilities belonging to the Dodgers, Angels, and Diamondbacks. Source: Sponichi 11/14/2012
“Not going to happen, they cost to much! LOL”
But they are old enough that they can handle NY
If Texas seceded from the union will the Rangers still be in MLB? If not can we have Beltre and Profar?
11/14/2012: Hiroki Kuroda
by Gen on Nov.14, 2012 @ 5:18 pm, under MLB
The New York Post’s Joel Sherman on where Hiroki Kuroda might end up going (via Nikkan Sports):
… Comfort is vital. Kuroda rejected more money last offseason, for example $13 million from Arizona, to sign a one-year, $10 million deal with the Yankees because he thought the more cosmopolitan atmosphere was right for him and his family. Kuroda also might want to go year-to-year because he wants to finish his career in Japan while he is still an effective pitcher. In fact, one NL executive who has tried to sign Kuroda previously predicted he will return to Japan for the 2013 season.
… Nevertheless, because the Yankees made the tender offer, the Dodgers would lose their first-round pick to sign Kuroda, who will turn 38 in February. Los Angeles general manager Ned Colletti told me that was an important issue to weigh because the Dodgers’ farm system needs rebuilding.
The Red Sox, because they had one of the majors’ 10-worst records, would lose a second-round pick if they signed Kuroda. There remain questions of whether or not Kuroda would broaden his considerations beyond New York, Los Angeles and Japan. One AL official said “definitely” when asked if Kuroda would go to the Red Sox, noting the cosmopolitan nature of the city.
Nevertheless, another AL official said, “not for $20 million a year. This is a player that values comfort and familiarity, and he is not familiar with the team and the Red Sox had chaos last year. No shot.”
Blake-
You cannot have Profar no matter how much you scheme so just give it up.
Come to my island instead.
You’ll be happier.
What are the tax rates on your island?
We don’t have any.
November 14, 2012 at 8:30 am
We don’t have any.
When can I move?
Whenever you want.
Mike -
Are you going to charge taxes to live on that waste land?
If Texas does secede, I’m packing my packs and moving west. They have the 15th largest budget in the world, and a balanced budget. They need some of that thinking world wide.
Mike for President of Utah, go Mike. No taxes, move over, here I come.
MTU,
Are you trying to sell me oceanfront property in Utah?
Kuroda is not going to Boston, not even worth discussing. He came to NY to win and play in the NY atmosphere. Boston has been in chaos and will not be a very good team next year. Not what he wants from what we hear, especially when he can get a lot of cash from another team.
The Yankees really value payroll flexibility for 2014, but I imagine that they will be in ‘match’ mode on any offers to Kuroda within MLB. Returning to Japan is obviously a wildcard.
Al-
I’m starting my own buisness.
Supplying quality sand to beach communities worldwide.
Our prices are fantastic.
We live off the fat of the Land.
OK. It’s time for the Yankees to get Kuroda and Rivera on board, “signed, sealed, delivered,” they’re ours this week.
Get an answer from Pettitte and figure out who your primary catcher is.
Then Cashman start fielding offers for Granderson and Cano.
If Kuroda goes to Japan I think we should get a pick in their draft
Good morning folks —-
I am really stunned by this trade. I knew the Marlins wanted to move some $$$, most notably Buerhle but didn’t think they had a prayer of moving that Reyes contract.
Baby Doc Selig should step in and block this trade in the “best interests of baseball”. Letting the Marlins scam South Florida taxpayers out of $ 600 M for a stadium is outrageous.
then again, the Marlins now have the payroll flexibility to take on a big contract. Hmmmmmmm
So which teams both have enough and would give enough to trade Cano…..lets hear some realistic offers
“then again, the Marlins now have the payroll flexibility to take on a big contract. Hmmmmmmm”
They won’t though…..
I love the idea of Pettitte coming back, but, can you really expect him to give you a full season at his age?
The Yankees need 5 SP, and a BU plan to cover injuries, with real talent, not hopeful dreams.
Blake-
They’re not trading Cano.
blake -
If, and that’s a big if, the Yankees ever moved Cano, I’d hope it would be to the NL, or at least to the west or central.
I wonder if Tino is happy about this whole thing or not…maybe he’d prefer to work with kids, but maybe he would have preferred to work with a guy like Reyes, who;d make him look like a genius
“They might could get the Marlins to take Arod if they gave nothing in return and the Yankees paid like 80% of his contract…..but even then Arod wouldn’t wave his no trade now.”
and that would only free up under $6 million a year that ownership would pocket and they’d still have to add someone to play 3B.
“Poor Tino Martinez.”
Mike Redmond said he knew this was the plan when he accepted the job in Miami. Tino may have been in the loop too before he signed on or is just happy to get a place to get a start building a resume.
MTU,
I know they won’t…..what they will do is wait until the offseason after 2013…..the Dodgers, Angels, Tigers, rangers, and Red Sox will all drive his price sky high and the Yanks will sign Cano to a 9/216 contract……
Mike -
I know Boras can be difficult to deal with, but, the player has the final say. I’d tell Cano, we want you to remain a NYY, but, in order to win we need flexibility in our contracts. We’ll give you a 4 year deal, with a mutual option for year 5. If this is not acceptable, we’ll attempt to trade you to a team of your choice.
“and that would only free up under $6 million a year that ownership would pocket and they’d still have to add someone to play 3B.”
Correct ….
Have to go soon so where will these Yankee FA’s go IF, Hunter, gets an offer from the Tigers and accepts?
Martin-Will the Rangers give him 3 years?
Kuroda- Japan or NY, or do the Dodgers give up a draft pick to select him?
Ibanez-Back or signed by another team?
Ichiro- Last gasp in September or rebirth?
Soriano-Did Boras miscalculate his worth on the open market?
That’s it Blake.
He’s the window dressing for the sale as CB pointed out last night.
(I think it was CB)
Al-
They’ll keep Cano to keep butts parked in the seats before the sale.
If the Yankees allow Cano to reach free agency then there will be so many teams in on him and boras will have so much leverage that the Yankees will either have to give him a 200+ million dollar deal or they will just have to let him walk for a draft pick…..
This is why I have been suggesting that if they can’t work out a discounted deal with him now…..then they should consider Hamilton as a cheaper Cano replacement and plan on Robbie leaving after 2013.
Hamilton carries risk yes….but his contract figures to be both cheaper and shorter on term than Cano’s will be and it would allow the Yankees to keep a middle of the order hitter in the lineup should they have to part ways with Cano……plus youd have them both in 2013.
Signing Hamilton to a 5 year deal starting in 2013 is much better than signing Cano to an 8 or 9 year deal starting in 2014……
Some truths supercede and encompass others.
Selling a team is one of those.
It swallows everything else whole.
If that’s where Hal is headed little else matters until the deed is done.
Breadcrumbs are out there. Let’s see where they lead.
Yankee Trader November 14th, 2012 at 8:50 am
Soriano-Did Boras miscalculate his worth on the open market?
—————————————–
I think so, especially when an offer includes losing your first round selection (I don’t see one of the 10 worst teams offering a large contract to a closer).
Or they could sign Hamilton and trade Cano for the max return they could get…..try to get a young 3B or SS and pitching help…..
Anything is better than waiting around for the inevitable hammer to fall after 2013 and having to sign Cano to a deal that you know will end ugly and you know will hamstring the organization for years…..the next CBA will be even worse for the Yankees…..they always get worse for the Yankees
New one —>
As for Tino – I have to imagine that he is just happy to have a Big League job where he can prove himself, and in his role he will be judged by individual performance and improvement, not the team’s success. His job doesn’t really depend on the presence of star talent to be fun, rewarding and potentially recognized within the game. So I wouldn’t cry for Tino.
@Buster_ESPN: A major, major loser in all this will be Jose Reyes, who goes from the tax haven of Florida to Canada, where tax is about half of income.
Why players fight for NT clauses…
Buster Olney?@Buster_ESPN
A major, major loser in all this will be Jose Reyes, who goes from the tax haven of Florida to Canada, where tax is about half of income
Mike -
If the sale comes this season, Cano is still here, and the new owner can re-sign him or not.
I love Cano, but with the contracts on hand, he may be worth more as trade bait than playing for the Yankees.
I admit I’m nuts, but, I’d trade Cano, make A-Rod the DH, bring up Adams and Corban Joseph, get a young OF like J. Upton, and 1 more OF. Then use a Dickerson as a #4 OF and bat off the bench. It’s time to get young and agressive. Young talent plays hungry, too many older players appear to be too complacent.
The Yankees, we determined cannot fit another long term 20M plus contract within budget with Sabathia, CC, Tex, all signed thru the full operating years of the current CBA.
There are too many other expenses-benefits, marketing bonuses that will come into play possibly 2015 for ARod, arbitration cases, free agents after this season-Hughes, Joba, Logan, etc. Plus they need to allow for Jeter’s increase in salary 2014 and inseason acquisitions.
The Yankees need to field offers for Cano, and get either major league ready top prospects or reasonably cost controlled young players in return.
I question whethter another team, knowing Boras is the agent, will allow the acquiring team to give him an extension. If not, then his value is dimished.
Blake-Rangers to make up for the loss of lefty bat Hamilton?
Morning All – Does last night mean CB is officially part of the know-nothing group of complainers on here that can’t just seem to be thankful for the existence of the NY Yankees?
It appears the consensus is the following;
Hal should sell the Yankees
Cano should, or will be, traded
Yankees should try to obtain J. Upton, G. Stanton
Trade Granderson
Re-sign Kuroda & Andy
Pray Mo is able to come back, and be the old Mo
Sign a better C, to a short term contract
Should all or none of the above happen, I’m sure the sun will still rise in the east tomorrow.
It’s so sad. The poor, poor Yankees have no money to spend, while their major competition has tons of money and are ready to spend it to improve their team.
The next thing we’ll hear is Hal making an announcement the team regrets having to increase the cost of seats at YS, parking will now be $75, the meals will double, and the YES network will be charging an extra $5 to those that carry their programming.
I agree, its so sad to watch a once great and powerful franchise on its knees, and about to become irrelevant in the world of MLB.
Let us pray ……………..
Chad,
I wish you would ask Cashman or whomever you have access if the Yankees are concerned about fan disinterest and declining income. The stands were partially empty and YES ratings we’re down last year by 8%. I think they should anticipate a greater effect next year and thereafter. Do they?
We are not nearly as ignorant as the Yankees seem to believe. There is no way without major changes they can be remotely competitive in the oncoming years. Fans will react.
Others have mentioned corporations will still buy tickets. Perhaps, but empty seats still lose a fortune in opportunity costs for stadium expenditures. In the longer term, corporations will see less interest in the games from their clientele and spend the entertainment money elsewhere in a city with many options.