The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Angels in the mix for Kuroda

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Nov 15, 2012 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

If Hiroki Kuroda wants to return to Los Angeles, the Dodgers might not be his only option.

According to Jon Heyman, the Angels have also entered into the market for Kuroda. There’s also still a chance that Kuroda will decide to pitch in Japan, and reports have also put the Red Sox in the mix.

For the Yankees, Kuroda seems to be the most important target on the market. His willingness to sign a one-year deal means he fits perfectly with their cost-cutting plans for 2014, and his production this season suggests he’s a reliable No. 2 starter to fill the hole at the top of the Yankees rotation.

If not Kuroda, who? Aside from Andy Pettitte, all of the impact starters on the market seem certain to sign long-term deals, which hurts the Yankees chances significantly.

 
 

Advertisement

133 Responses to “Angels in the mix for Kuroda”

  1. Mike in Harrisburg November 15th, 2012 at 1:53 pm

    I’m getting the increasing impression that the Yankees front office is getting caught with their pants down this offseason, relative to the competition. It’s worrying that we seem highly inflexible and uncreative.

  2. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    I’m not sure the Yankees are doing this because they’re greedy so much as they’re just tired of paying more than everyone else and they may as well use this to their benefit for the time being.

    They are definitely doing it because of greed. They spend less on players as a share of revenue than most teams in baseball. It is just that their revenues are so large their lower percentage = one of the highest payrolls in baseball, but they don’t really reinvest the money fans spend like other teams do.

  3. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Nate Silver dropping science on all you b-words: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.n.....for-m-v-p/

  4. The Return of Stoneburner November 15th, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    This all rests on the assumption that other owners would act the same way if their revenue streams were 400 million plus like the Yankees. Would these other owners blow past the 200 million or even 300 million threshold to stay with their previous revenue to spending ratio – highly unlikely – I do not agree with your assumption – - – -but just my opinion – maybe the Twins would really spend that much – but probably not – - – -

  5. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    This all rests on the assumption that other owners would act the same way if their revenue streams were 400 million plus like the Yankees. Would these other owners blow past the 200 million or even 300 million threshold to stay with their previous revenue to spending ratio – highly unlikely – I do not agree with your assumption – – – -but just my opinion – maybe the Twins would really spend that much – but probably not – – – -

    If all revenues were that high you wouldn’t have a luxury tax set at less than 50% of revenues, so spending would be increased. But all the owners are greedy, it is not something unique to the steinbrenners. It just so happens that some teams who are more than capable of paying 40-50% of revenue back into the team to increase their profits are spending 70-80% instead.

  6. Villa Nova-Ya November 15th, 2012 at 2:04 pm

    jerkface -

    That seems contrary to everything I’ve ever heard or read about the Yankees, including right here. How one of the best things about the Yankees is they re-invest in the team. (Now, maybe over the last couple of years that changed?)

    But assuming that’s true, they don’t base the LT on % of revenue spent on payroll, right, just the flat out dollars? So, what’s the incentive for the Yankees to spend more in terms of %?

    And having the highest payroll hasn’t gotten them what they aim for every year and they’ve been sorely disappointed many years after paying very high prices for players, with the exception of 2009 when the investment in Sabathia and Teixeira (and AJ) paid off in a WS.

    I don’t necessarily want/need them to have the highest payroll for players on the field.

    I have a hard time poking at the Yankees for not spending enough money.

  7. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:07 pm

    Villa,

    The Yankees spend the most of any team in baseball, that is commendable. They do so because their revenues are insanely high. Between NYY & YES Network their payroll is 50% or less of revenues. If the Yankees, counting luxury tax, wanted to spend the same as the Tigers in terms of % of revenue, the payroll would be 350 million+luxury tax on that amount.

    The incentive for the Yankees to spend more is to win lots. I honestly do not give a damn about team profits or whatever. Baseball teams should be breaking even or in the red. Its sports, not investment banking.

  8. Villa Nova-Ya November 15th, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    Jerkface -

    Just a thought – the LT the Yankees pay is an expense for them that I’m guessing they possibly look at as “real salary”.

    So if you include the luxury tax they pay on those salaries, plus the salaries themselves, wouldn’t that bring the % up? It’s not technically investing the money in the team, but essentially, it is.

  9. blake November 15th, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    blake says:
    November 15, 2012 at 2:09 pm
    JF,

    How come you ignore the games Trout didn’t play and that Tori Hunter was their best player down the stretch?

    Again if Trout wins I won’t have a problem with it…. He’s awesome….but Id vote for Miggy

  10. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    This NoMaas article runs it down: http://nomaas.org/2012/01/the-.....seriously/

  11. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    How come you ignore the games Trout didn’t play and that Tori Hunter was their best player down the stretch?

    Again if Trout wins I won’t have a problem with it…. He’s awesome….but Id vote for Miggy

    Did you not see Trouts final 2 weeks? Or that his team won more games? Or that Trout ended up with 92% of Miggy’s plate appearances on the season? Or that he was still more valuable in the smaller sample?

    You’re ignoring defense & base running. Why don’t you factor that in?

  12. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    Just a thought – the LT the Yankees pay is an expense for them that I’m guessing they possibly look at as “real salary”.

    So if you include the luxury tax they pay on those salaries, plus the salaries themselves, wouldn’t that bring the % up? It’s not technically investing the money in the team, but essentially, it is.

    It brings it up, but still not close to the Tigers. And as I said, if you considered total revenues the Yankees could have a payroll of 350 million. That, including luxury tax on that amount, would equal the amount the Tigers paid as rate. Read that NoMaas article, its pretty good.

  13. austinmac November 15th, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    One cannot act as if the current ownership leader played a role in the older, expensive contracts. One can say since Hal took over, their have been no expensive deals. They used to reinvest much more than they are now willing going forward. How do I know this? They told us.

    Their is no reason to reduce spending by 20% or more except for profit. Their saving money does not help my team.

    If Kuroda goes elsewhere, this team is in deep trouble, particularly if Pettitte doesn’t return. It is troubling we haven’t heard from Andy. Lost suggested he is waiting to see the direction of the team. I sure hope not.

  14. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    DONNYBROOK November 15th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
    Very intelligent Rountable Discussion over at MLB Network\ Hot Stove, regarding the AL MVP\ Cabrerra vs Trout. Had Mad Dog and Keith Olbermann on the panel. Olbermann was a Stat Geek and had index cards of info at the ready, and a paper back book he was waving around. Mad Dog was Old School, and rattled off thoughtfully intelligent arguments right off the top of his head. Of course, the Old School’ers carried the day. The fact that Olbermann issa Poster Boy for the New Stats that some of you worship, says plenty about this approach to constructing\evaluating a team or a player.

    Long live ignorance!

    NOT

    Sometimes I think this must be an act, because no one could be this stupid.

  15. tucker November 15th, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    The more important issue for the Yanks, IMO, is propping up the ratings for YES. The ratings declined last year. Advertisers will press the Yes Network for more favorable rates. That’s the real cash cow even though it may not be “Yankees” revenue.

    They have to figure out how to make this team exciting yet again. Because fans are not going to tune in to watch ARod plow through HR records, which must have been the reasoning when the team signed him to that absurd contract.

  16. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    Thank you JF

    And for anyone that is interested they are having the AL MVP roundtable debate on the MLB Network right now.

  17. blake November 15th, 2012 at 2:15 pm

    Virtually every player interviewed that I’ve heard says they’d vote for Cabrera…..

  18. blake November 15th, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    “You’re ignoring defense & base running. Why don’t you factor that in?”

    I do….it just doesn’t change my opinion.

  19. Villa Nova-Ya November 15th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Obviously I posted before I refreshed so I didn’t see your 2:07 post, Jerkface.

    My only argument is spending more doesn’t necessarily mean winning more. They would (and have) continue to win in the regular season. But the post-season is something else, especially with the wild card scenarios in play these days.

    Baseball is a business, though. Profit is always good for a business, no matter the field. I think the Yankees have done decently in terms of both fielding a winning (contending) team and making a profit. I don’t think you’ll ever see an owner of any sports franchise who would operate in the red or break even on purpose.

  20. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Virtually every player interviewed that I’ve heard says they’d vote for Cabrera…..

    Thats not an argument. McCarthy says Trout is the MVP at any rate.

  21. blake November 15th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Who is the NL MVP to change the subject? Id go Posey

  22. Villa Nova-Ya November 15th, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Jerkface, I’m on my way out, but I’ll take a look at NoMaas later. Thanks.

  23. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    I do….it just doesn’t change my opinion.

    Why not? You agree that Trout is far superior in those categories? How does that not tilt a close offensive contest?

  24. blake November 15th, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    I don’t think Kuroda will leave unless he decides to go back to Japan or the Yankees really low ball him…..

  25. Tar November 15th, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    You Sabre geeks should just drop the defensive aspect to WAR. At least until its more accurate. Give us non- sabers something less tangible to grasp on to. It would Kind of like losing the battle to win the War.

    Couldn’t resist :D

    I would vote for Trout.

  26. adrs87 November 15th, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    do you guys think the Yankees have a back up plan ?

    I just keep getting the feeling that they are just waiting on kuroda and andy like teenage girls at a Justin bieber concert. what if Kuroda decides to go else where and andy never comes back ? Also, i’m pretty sure that if Kuroda goes else where andy wont come back.

    I think pettite is at a time in his career where if he sees that our chances of winning a world championship are slim, due to the lack of Idk, believe, a good line-up or a rotation ; he Just wouldn’t come back.

    I hope i’m completely wrong and this is Just me ‘freaking out” but i do believe that they could start working on the outfield holes while waiting on Kuroda and andy, though.

  27. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:22 pm

    Baseball is a business, though. Profit is always good for a business, no matter the field. I think the Yankees have done decently in terms of both fielding a winning (contending) team and making a profit. I don’t think you’ll ever see an owner of any sports franchise who would operate in the red or break even on purpose.

    The business end of baseball is for MLB to worry about, but its insanely healthy right now. Owners of sports teams should operate in the red or break even on purpose because sports teams are not a family business that is built from the ground up or whatever. It is not a true business. Sports teams are a hobby for an incredibly rich person. It is, in general, not the thing with which a person gets rich from. It is something a rich person buys because they want it. By purchasing the sports team, the owner must be willing to spend money to put a good team on the field. A lot of clubs simply do not, when they could if they wanted to.

    The Yankees are so dang profitable the Steinbrenners COULD increase payroll by 100 million and not bat an eyelash. Spending more money does not guarantee a world series, but if you could cut A-rod lose and replace him without it hurting profits, why not? Or why not have the best players? Why not have the best facilities, the most scouts, the biggest front office (or the most well paid?)?

    I offer no sympathy for rich people who buy a hobby franchise & then choose profits over fan experience.

  28. tucker November 15th, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    I’m worried that the Yanks may be trying to lowball Kuroda. He only wants one year. I don’t buy these reports that he is seriously considering other MLB teams. Hal needs to pay the man — he earned it.

    Another possibility is Kuroda wants to win a World Series before he goes back to Japan. If that’s the case, the Yankees are not his best option.

  29. Tar November 15th, 2012 at 2:25 pm

    “I offer no sympathy for rich people who buy a hobby franchise & then choose profits over fan experience.”

    Damn where was this JF during the Jeter negotiations.

  30. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    Damn where was this JF during the Jeter negotiations.

    I offer equal amounts of no sympathy for baseball players past their prime demanding premium contracts. If the Yankees had a budget more in line with their revenues they could pay Jeter whatever he wanted, but if you want to frame his contract in light of the Yankees original budget (~210mm) and propose future budget (~189mm) then you have to argue what is the most efficient use of resources.

  31. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 2:28 pm

    Maybe Andy is waiting for Kuroda to make a decision, thinking if Kuroda goes elsewhere, he’ll have more leverage.

    And maybe Kuroda is doing the same!

  32. trisha - true pinstriped blue November 15th, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    Tar, wasn’t sure whether you saw my response to you.

    “BTW “One never knows when an Aaron Small is going to appear” sounds like a mantra that Cash repeats every night. Unfortunately it’s not a sound strategy for making your team better. ”

    Tar, I think you missed my point there. It had nothing to do with strategy. It had to do with the reality that it’s that it is impossible to know the outcome of a season based on names on a paper. It’s impossible to know that a Tim Lincecum might have a terrible season, any more than it’s possible to know that a Barry Zito might put in a dandy season. That’s what I was talking about when I talked about the uncertainty. There is no certainty. If there were Murderers Row and Cano would have sported WS rings and the same with the 2011 Suxers.

    My true belief is that anything short of a World Series victory will have a large number of posters in here in a finger-pointing tailspin because they cannot accept anything short of winning the whole thing.

    ************

    And since for me the interocking NY is more than enough, I leave all of you to solve whatever you believe needs to be solved.

    ;)

  33. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    JF, I don’t think owners see a baseball team as a hobby, I think they see it as a cash cow monopoly.

  34. tucker November 15th, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    Yanks have been very rigid in the sequence of their offseason approach. Really, it’s almost binder-like.

    It has been sign minor league cast-offs, secure starting rotation then take care of the rest of the roster.

    They do not sign corner OFs before they take care of the rotation. They want to see how much they have to spend on the rotation first. Then they figure they can just wait out the market for corner OFs until prices drop enough to match Hal’s spreadsheet figures.

  35. G. Love November 15th, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    I truly hope Cashman and the front office are not trying to get a deal on Kuroda and wait for the market to set itself.

    He’s exactly what they chase after year after year. A top of the rotation starter who can pitch in NY.

    Give him 16 million for a season and if he turns that down or wants a multi-year deal, get it done.

    If they’re sitting around waiting for the Dodgers, Angels, Red Sox etc. to set his market, they will lose him.

    As for Andy, he played for 2.5 million last year. If the Yankees expect him to play for pocket change again he’ll probably stay retired.

    The whole “patience” angle the front office tries to sell us is just them sitting on their checkbooks waiting for players and agents to come back to them begging for scraps. That strategy will net us Pavano in place of Kuroda. Kuroda is arguably the best free agent pitcher on the market if you have reservations about Greinke.

    If you know a guy is perfect for your team, why play poker. The only reason you do that is because playing the game is more fun that signing the player.

  36. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    JF, I don’t think owners see a baseball team as a hobby, I think they see it as a cash cow monopoly.

    Well definitely, but as I said no owner got rich from baseball. Its just a tertiary or worse revenue stream for them. The guys who are buying in are doing so because they are part of an old boys club and see the billion dollar industry, but they should be buying in because they want to deliver championships.

  37. Chambliss November 15th, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    I wish the Yankees would get it over with and just overpay a few million for Kuroda for one year. If Kuroda’s value on the open market is $16M, give him $18M and some incentives. He was very good last year in the regular season and in the postseason.

    At this point A-Rod makes probably two or three times what he is worth. It seems silly to risk losing a very valuable pitcher like Kuroda over $1M or $2M.

  38. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    You have these hucksters like Loria who don’t care about the product on the field, but about gaming the system. Get them out.

  39. Tar November 15th, 2012 at 2:36 pm

    “then you have to argue what is the most efficient use of resources.”

    My “fan experience” was wanting the Yankees to come to a middle ground. And certainly not publicly haggle over by what your own estimates is nothing more than chump change.

  40. Run it Out November 15th, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    JF Most rich people are rich because they didn’t go around making bad business decisions.

  41. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    My true belief is that anything short of a World Series victory will have a large number of posters in here in a finger-pointing tailspin because they cannot accept anything short of winning the whole thing.

    ————————

    That’s not true because a number of the ppl on here aren’t WS or bust fans.

  42. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    May – August (4 months)

    Trout: .341/.404/.590 (492 pa)

    Cabrera: .335/.397/.594 (473 pa)

    Not even counting defense and baserunning, Trout wins on offense alone for 4 out the 6 months of the season! MVP!

  43. Tar November 15th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Trisha

    I’m on my phone but I didn’t miss understand. I was just being a smart aleck. Sorry. :sad:

  44. MoRings42 November 15th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Yankees are selling some of the Yes Network to Newscorp.

    It’s the beginning of the end, folks.

  45. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Most rich people are rich because they didn’t go around making bad business decisions.

    Arguable. And spending more on a baseball team is not necessarily a bad business decision.

  46. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    Most rich people like to get richer, and a baseball team is one pretty safe way to do that, if you can get in on it. I wonder how much Selig’s palms have been greased during his reign. His Cayman account must be stuffed.

  47. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 2:42 pm

    G Love throwing haymakers

  48. Benny Blanco November 15th, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Pettite has to hurry up and make a decision. The longer it takes the the less chance the the yankees have to making other moves if any.

  49. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Yankees are selling some of the Yes Network to Newscorp.

    It’s the beginning of the end, folks.

    Nah, the Yankees share isn’t decreasing. Its the minority partners in YES that are selling some.

  50. bruceb November 15th, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    I wish the Yankees would get it over with and just overpay a few million for Kuroda for one year. If Kuroda’s value on the open market is $16M, give him $18M and some incentives. He was very good last year in the regular season and in the postseason.

    That’s exactly what you can’t do when you’re looking to trim payroll by 20 percent. Why not overpay Russell Martin 3/24 and Torii Hunter 2/26 too?

    I want Kuroda back way more than I want Martin; in my opinion, we need him way more than Martin. But the fact remains that he will be 38 next season. There is no guarantee he will able to reproduce his 2012 numbers and, perhaps of even more significance, he’s not part of the Yankees’ long-term future. I love Hiro but he’s simply not worth a $5 million pay rise in the current NYY economy.

  51. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    Maybe the Yankees aren’t “playing poker”, maybe Kuroda and Pettitte just don’t want to make a decision yet and the Yankees just have to wait or make other plans.

    With Kuroda it’s probably not the money.

    With Andy, who knows, he does this crap all the time.

  52. Bronx Jeers November 15th, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    Yankees are selling some of the Yes Network to Newscorp.

    It’s the beginning of the end, folks.

    ————————————-

    Yankee Global Enterprises (The Yankees) will retain its 34% stake in YES.

    But they’re definitely getting in bed with a snake.

  53. DONNYBROOK November 15th, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    Well, Trout’s a cinch to win the Joe Girardi 3 Ring Binder Award.

  54. Run it Out November 15th, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    JF If the owner’s business plan calls for a certain % of reinvestment then they will follow that model. Jacksquat said it best. “Most rich people like to get richer.” If rich people are looking to lose money or break even then their are plenty of opportunities to do that (thoroughbred horses) where the initial investment is not nearly as substantial. You must also remember that many clubs are not a single owner, therfore there are other investors to consider.

  55. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    Run it out,

    They chose to invest in a sports team, its on them. Rich people wanting to get richer is not a virtue, it is the exact thing I am arguing against.

  56. Shame Spencer November 15th, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    Can we please stop this trope that because the Yankees spent the most money in X year but failed to win a WS that spending doesn’t help your team get to the ultimate goal?

    It is kind of dumb.

  57. G. Love November 15th, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Odds,

    I’m just getting started. Between the way the team is handling it’s business & the way a lot of us are constantly lectured in here just to be grateful that the NY Yankees even exist on our beautiful planet (barf), I’ve got plenty to say.

    And we’re not WS or bust fans. When we lost in 2001, I didn’t see anyone in the fanbase cry foul. When we lost to the Marlins they flat out beat us. What we want to see players that inspire us. Not just schmo’s wearing the laundry. The only thing Arod & Mark Teixeira inspires in me are do-overs on their contracts which now hinder the team from improving & the team uses as an excuse to not spend.

    We want to see a front office that made moves well in advance of this budget decree to set themselves up for it. Instead, they did nothing other than Pineda which wasn’t enough to get them set up for slashing the payroll for several seasons. They ignored International Free Agents, the could have traded Swisher or Granderson last off season for something to help with the budget plan…all they are doing is strip mining.

    We want to see owners that will lower the cost of supporting the team if they are intentionally going to spend less money to make more money. The prices they charge were built on the idea that this team would do whatever it took to put a winner on the field. Now they will do whatever it takes to get the budget under 189 million.

    The angst in the fanbase isn’t because we think the team is doing great, it’s because we see the lack of planning, lack of initiative and lack of self awareness this team is showing.

    The team’s never been perfect. Living through George before he got banished was tough as a fan at times.

    But the team has never intentionally cut corners in my lifetime. I wasn’t around in the 60′s when they did that so forgive me if for the first time in my lifetime I’m a little ticked off that all of a sudden we’re building the club with extreme coupon’ing. I’m sure Cashman is checking the back of his supermarket receipt for a coupon on Ibanez right now.

  58. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Manny homered in his first winter league AB, maybe we can sign him for Rf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0FVx5Cy0Ss

  59. Run it Out November 15th, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    JF…So you’re saying investors who are interested in investing $600 mil in a sports team must be willing to accept a loss or breakeven every season. Go find 30 owners with that philosophy. You are arguing against capitalism; like it should not apply in a sports franchise.

  60. Bronx Jeers November 15th, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    What’s odd about the News Corp deal is that they own the NY Post.

    So now reporters that get paid to criticize the Yankees could potentially damage the company they’re paid to write for.

  61. Tar November 15th, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    GLove

    Good post and I feel the same way.

  62. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    So you’re saying investors who are interested in investing $600 mil in a sports team must be willing to accept a loss or breakeven every season. Go find 30 owners with that philosophy. You are arguing against capitalism; like it should not apply in a sports franchise.

    Uh yea, I think if you want to invest in a sports team you need to be willing to support the sports team. It should be a vehicle for profit. Capitalism isn’t the best to thing ever exist, nor should it apply to many areas of life (healthcare for 1)

  63. Shame Spencer November 15th, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    Team Greedy: I will not be thankful for the Yankees until they start saving babies. No baby saving, no thankfulness. I reserve that sh*t for real life. Baseball is just a game and when I play a game I like to JUST WIN BABY!!!

    It’s like when I play soccer with my nephew. He always wins. Do I like that he always wins? No, but it’s just a game and I know he likes to win. In this scenario, I am my nephew and the Yankees are me. So the question is, really: Why won’t the Yankees just let me be great?!

  64. Shame Spencer November 15th, 2012 at 3:02 pm

    Losing teams in MLB make more money than winning teams.

    There is a lesson in there….

  65. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    “Why not? You agree that Trout is far superior in those categories? How does that not tilt a close offensive contest?”

    Because I think Cabrera did more to help his team when the games counted the most down the stretch and I think he played a significant number more of games……and I think it’s close enough that I give him the nod for that….. Doesn’t mean I don’t think Trout is a better overall player in general

  66. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:04 pm

    @sabometrics

    Miguel Cabrera hit better last year than this year and lost MVP to a pitcher.

  67. Run it Out November 15th, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    JF….I just found the bottom line to your argument. No further comment from me.

  68. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    Because I think Cabrera did more to help his team when the games counted the most down the stretch and I think he played a significant number more of games……and I think it’s close enough that I give him the nod for that….. Doesn’t mean I don’t think Trout is a better overall player in general

    But why do games down the stretch count more? They all count the same actually. How do you reconcile that with Trouts team winning more games? How do you reconcile the last 2 weeks of the season where Trout was much better than Cabrera? How is the stretch of the stretch not the most important thing when you want to start breaking it down? He only played in 22 more games, and Trout ended up with nearly the same number of PA. And in those games Trout was far better.

    I really think you’re just ignoring base running & defense because you really love narrative.

  69. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    It should be a vehicle for profit

    It should NOT be a vehicle for profit I mean.

  70. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    “May – August (4 months)

    Trout: .341/.404/.590 (492 pa)

    Cabrera: .335/.397/.594 (473 pa)

    Not even counting defense and baserunning, Trout wins on offense alone for 4 out the 6 months of the season! MVP!”

    Except they play 6 months…..and Trout didn’t play the first month and was outperformed by Cabrera in September.

  71. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:08 pm

    “But why do games down the stretch count more? They all count the same actually”

    Ok why don’t the games count from April when Trout was in AAA

  72. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    ” He only played in 22 more games, and Trout ended up with nearly the same number of PA. And in those games Trout was far better.”

    The number of PA is irrelevant …..the point is that Cabrera affected 22 more games than Trout did.

  73. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:09 pm

    Ok why don’t the games count from April when Trout was in AAA

    They do count, Blake, I am not ignoring them. You don’t seem to get that. They count and Trout is still ahead because he was SO MUCH BETTER. He stole near 50 bases. He played GG defense. Cabrera is a negative on both sides of that coin! It doesn’t matter that he was playing in April, because it is so utterly 1 sided the rest of the time.

  74. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:10 pm

    The number of PA is irrelevant …..the point is that Cabrera affected 22 more games than Trout did.

    He affected 22 games on 1 side of the ball positively, on 2 sides of the ball negatively. Trout affected 139 games positively on all sides of the ball.

    More sides = better than

  75. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    The Tigers weren’t even above .500 in april/may :>

  76. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    I really think you’re just ignoring base running & defense because you really love narrative.”

    I’m not…..I just don’t think there is enough value there to cover: 1) all the games he missed 2) that Cabrera outperformed him in crunch time…….

    you can say what you want about all the games counting the same but Cabrera took his team past the White Sox and Trout didn’t do the same………

  77. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Very well said by G Love and he has a point. It’s the lack of foresight that hurts the club moving forward. Many ppl point to A-rod and the new CBA but over the past few seasons they have been cutting back on the draft, IFAs, the major league team, etc. This is the first time in a long time when money is an issue. JF said it best they could increase payroll and now bat an eye but they are choosing to pull things in. That’s fine because it’s their money but no one should be surprised if the team starts to decline more than it already has

  78. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    I’m not…..I just don’t think there is enough value there to cover: 1) all the games he missed 2) that Cabrera outperformed him in crunch time…….

    How??? How is there not enough value? 90% success rate on 49 steals. GG defense at a premium position. He outperformed Cabrera in ‘all time except crunch time and he even outperformed cabrera in double crunch time’

  79. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    “Cabrera is a negative on both sides of that coin! It doesn’t matter that he was playing in April, because it is so utterly 1 sided the rest of the time.”

    That’s Advanced metrics mumbo jumbo…..There is no way to accurately say that Cabrera playing 3B negatively affected te Tigers more than Trout not playing at all

  80. Shame Spencer November 15th, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Who saves more babies: Trout or Cabrera?

  81. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:07 pm
    “May – August (4 months)

    Trout: .341/.404/.590 (492 pa)

    Cabrera: .335/.397/.594 (473 pa)

    Not even counting defense and baserunning, Trout wins on offense alone for 4 out the 6 months of the season! MVP!”

    Except they play 6 months…..and Trout didn’t play the first month and was outperformed by Cabrera in September.

    It was tongue in cheek. My point is, if people are going to start cherry picking months (September), so will I.

    Trout was still more valuable, even though he missed almost a full month. His far, far superior defense and baserunning just take him over the top.

  82. UnKnown November 15th, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    Man Ram went the other way with that 91mph Fastball cookie out of the plate. Those fans and teammates went absolutely nuts.

  83. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    That’s Advanced metrics mumbo jumbo…..There is no way to accurately say that Cabrera playing 3B negatively affected te Tigers more than Trout not playing at all

    Cabrera playing when Trout didn’t doesnt matter, because when they played at the same time Trout was 3 times the player Cabrera was.

  84. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    Shame Spencer November 15th, 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Who saves more babies: Trout or Cabrera?

    ——————

    Trout he’s faster

  85. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    1 x 6 will always be less than 3 x 5

  86. DONNYBROOK November 15th, 2012 at 3:16 pm

    I agree with the sentiment that was posted around here throughout the season, “The 2012 Yankees were tough to really root for”. This was a team going through the motions, managed by a numbers crunching, politically correct, Boring, Mgr. Cano NOT diving for decisive ground balls just outta his grasp, Swish playing to the crowd, and then failing when it counted in RF and at the plate, Grandy doing the Wind Mill for 162, A-Rod, ( minus the James Brown cape), being his erudite Self, and Jones I’m not even gonna get into. THIS team was Boring. Their enormous talent advantage got ‘em to the ALCS. Once the heart-and-soul was removed, (Jeet), the remaining cast of characters were just that. Merely characters.

  87. jacksquat November 15th, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    JF, I wasn’t arguing that the rich trying to get richer is virtuous, just observing reality.

    Personally, if I owned the Yankees and would still make a fat profit with a 300 mil payroll, there would be a 300 mil payroll.

  88. Shame Spencer November 15th, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Who saved more babies in April?!

  89. UnKnown November 15th, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    In 1947 Ted Williams won the Triple Crown but lost the MVP to Joe DiMaggio.

    Winning the Triple Crown proved back then that it didn’t guarantee the MVP. With that said I think I vote for Miggy.

    On another note, I am more than pleased that Verlander lost the CY to Price. Can’t stand Verlander…

  90. adrs87 November 15th, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Manny homered in his first winter league AB, maybe we can sign him for Rf:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0FVx5Cy0Ss

    ——-

    The only thing coming to mind while watching that is , why can’t our fans at the stadium be that loud in the playoffs ? i’m sure it would make things a lot more interesting ….

  91. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    “Cabrera playing when Trout didn’t doesnt matter, because when they played at the same time Trout was 3 times the player Cabrera was.”

    3 times? Come on now…..you’re putting more stock in defense than Brian Cashman does at catcher!

  92. Against All Odds November 15th, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    Shame Spencer November 15th, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    Who saved more babies in April?!

    ———————–

    Miggy because Trout wasn’t known or up here yet lol

  93. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    When does Otani sign? Who would you compare him to in the majors for his potential?
    Klaw (1:48 PM)

    He’s under control to the NPB club that drafted him. Unless he’s posted, he ain’t coming.

    This is incorrect right ?

  94. G. Love November 15th, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    We need to sign Manny. At least he knows how to take a pitch to the opposite field.

  95. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    3 times? Come on now…..you’re putting more stock in defense than Brian Cashman does at catcher!

    Its reasonable. Cabrera is a negative at third or first, and a bigger negative at third. He is a fatty, he can’t run. Trout was the best base runner and defender in the game this year. Cabrera was not ahead of Trout enough offensively to handwave defense & base running. He only beat Trout by .030 points in OPS and he played in an easier park to hit in than Trout did. In an easier division full of easier hitting stadiums overall.

  96. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:29 pm

    He’s under control to the NPB club that drafted him. Unless he’s posted, he ain’t coming.

    This is incorrect right ?

    Yes.

  97. DONNYBROOK November 15th, 2012 at 3:30 pm

    Where were all you Trout Hounds when he did NOT getta Gold Glove ??? Shoulda made your case on his defensive prowess then. Now, the statute of limitations has taken effect. DENIED

  98. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    Cabrera was -12 on baserunning+Defense. Trout was +23.

  99. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:31 pm

    @mlbtraderumors: Cubs Sign Dioner Navarro http://t.co/rKms4F7a #mlb

  100. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    Trout won the fielding bible award, the only one that matters.

  101. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:33 pm

    Jerkface says:
    November 15, 2012 at 3:31 pm
    Cabrera was -12 on baserunning+Defense. Trout was +23.

    Trout was -22 on playing games in April…..Miggy was + 22

  102. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    Law is saying that Otani can’t leave now that he’s been drafted and would have to be posted …..

  103. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    Well thats not true. The Ham Fighters won the rights to negotiate with him, they did not win rights to him forever. The gentleman’s agreement may keep MLB teams off him until March, but once the signing window closes up Otani will come over here as he wishes.

  104. 86w183 November 15th, 2012 at 3:37 pm

    Jerkface/Blake —– if you two can’t play nice…….

    Guys it’s a legit debate and some of the best baseball analysts disagree on this vote.

    To me VALUABLE is the key work in Most Valuable Player

    Cabrera came up big when the post-season was on the line and Trout did not. That sways my vote to his side.

    If we were debating the “Player of the Year” I would vote for Trout. Trout was the best all-around player in the game….. but Cabrera was more valuable.

  105. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:38 pm

    So for April Miggy provided -1.63 baserunning & defense. Trout then beats him 23 to -10.3 the rest of the year. Literally 3 times as many runs.

  106. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    “Jerkface/Blake —– if you two can’t play nice…….”

    We are…..we argue but it’s all in good fun…..

  107. 86w183 November 15th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    On to other things… wouldn’t Brandon McCarthy make a lot of sense as a starter who wouldn’t cost a ton AND might want a short term deal to build his value?

  108. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    Analysts aren’t split on Trout. Pundits maybe. But not analysts.

  109. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    Jerkface says:
    November 15, 2012 at 3:38 pm
    So for April Miggy provided -1.63 baserunning & defense. Trout then beats him 23 to -10.3 the rest of the year. Literally 3 times as many runs.

    Says the sabermetrics

  110. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    “Analysts aren’t split on Trout. Pundits maybe. But not analysts.”

    What about players and managers….

  111. 86w183 November 15th, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    Analysts aren’t split on Trout. Pundits maybe. But not analysts.

    *************************************************

    Huh? there’s a difference? Lemme guess…

    Analysts agree with you and pundits are morons who don’t understand modern statistics.

    did I come close?

  112. DONNYBROOK November 15th, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    The sad part is the argument presented by 1 side is ALL numbers. There IS a beautiful game out there.

  113. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    Those ignorant players and managers all pick Cabrera…..mathletes know better!

  114. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    Analysts agree with you and pundits are morons who don’t understand modern statistics.

    did I come close?

    Its the difference between Nate Silver & Dick Morris. These pundits are just going by their ‘feel’ and gut and narrative. They aren’t looking at the numbers, and honestly they can hardly be looking at the actual game either.

  115. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    The sad part is the argument presented by 1 side is ALL numbers. There IS a beautiful game out there.

    Its true that the Cabrera side is presenting all numbers. They cannot appreciate Trouts grace in the field or on the base paths. Truly the multi-facted, all around player teams wish they had.

  116. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:51 pm

    “Its the difference between Nate Silver & Dick Morris. ”

    Didn’t Dick Morris get Clinton elected twice

  117. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    Didn’t Dick Morris get Clinton elected twice

    Dick Morris the ‘election analyst’ has been hilariously wrong about everything ever for the past decade.

  118. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    As reference: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm.....cal-pundit

  119. 86w183 November 15th, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    Its true that the Cabrera side is presenting all numbers. They cannot appreciate Trouts grace in the field or on the base paths. Truly the multi-facted, all around player teams wish they had.

    ***************************************************************************

    As Colonel Potter might say, BUFFALO BISCUITS!!

    My argument for Cabrera as MVP is his productivity down the stretch, which was the difference in the Tigers winning the Division.

    Trout’s non-production down the stretch may have been the difference in the Angels NOT making the post-season.

    But I really don’t care who wins…. I do like my idea of signing Brandon McCarthy

    gotta run, happy Thursday night!

  120. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    “Dick Morris the ‘election analyst’ has been hilariously wrong about everything ever for the past decade.”

    He wasn’t wrong in 2010…..he still analyses ….he doesn’t just guess…..it just turned out this time that his analysis was wrong……he predicted the turnout numbers would go back to closer to the way they always have been…..and they didn’t…..it was just like 2008……he wasn’t the only one that was way wrong…..sometimes analytics are wrong !

  121. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    My argument for Cabrera as MVP is his productivity down the stretch, which was the difference in the Tigers winning the Division.

    Trout’s non-production down the stretch may have been the difference in the Angels NOT making the post-season.

    You cite numbers down the stretch. As if the stretch is the only thing that matters. When Trouts team won more games in a harder division.

    And as I posted… last 2 weeks of the season

    Miggy: .313 .353 .500 .853

    Trout: .361 .465 .694 1.160

  122. blake November 15th, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Either way the point wasn’t whether dick Morris was good at his job or not…..

  123. blake November 15th, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    “And as I posted… last 2 weeks of the season”

    What about the whole month?

  124. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    He wasn’t wrong in 2010…..he still analyses ….he doesn’t just guess…..it just turned out this time that his analysis was wrong……he predicted the turnout numbers would go back to closer to the way they always have been…..and they didn’t…..it was just like 2008……he wasn’t the only one that was way wrong…..sometimes analytics are wrong !

    Actually he was kind of wrong in 2010, and no one who is a real analyst predicted the election the way they did. He wasn’t guessing, he was wishing. And dealing with narrative, gut, ‘how the country feels’, and all sorts of stuff that in the end doesn’t matter. Just like playing down the stretch doesn’t matter when you look at an entire season, and why the triple crown doesn’t matter, and more.

  125. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    What about the whole month?

    What about the whole season?

  126. blake November 15th, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    “Actually he was kind of wrong in 2010, and no one who is a real analyst predicted the election the way they did.”

    He predicted a big win for republicans in the house that year and he missed by a little ……nobody predicted the election like he did but a lot of folks predicted romney would win by a significant margin……a lot of folks thought that the polls were skewed towards a turnout model in 2008 that wouldn’t repeat in 2012…..and a lot of research actually supported that this might happen……it just didnt

  127. blake November 15th, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    “What about the whole season?”

    Including April?

  128. blake November 15th, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    Again Im not saying Morris is good at his job cause clearly he isn’t…..

  129. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    and a lot of research actually supported that this might happen

    No real research supported it. Their own facts for unskewing the polls weren’t even based in any logic. It was all wishful thinking. And a lot of people predicted very incorrectly the election, like Dick Morris, and none of them were using the polls & stats. The people who looked at the polls predicted correctly. This is my point. The Dick Morris’ of the world will skew and scrimp and wish and say stuff like ‘Miguel Cabrera was hot down the stretch!’ and ignore the 66% of the game he doesn’t play or what all the stats are saying.

    The republicans lost in 2004 or 2008 turnout. The unskewing was based on MAKING UP a number of republicans based on ‘enthusiasm’ and what not, when the truth is the electorate is getting less white and that will not change.

    Just like the baseball electorate is getting more advanced stat friendly.

  130. Jerkface November 15th, 2012 at 4:13 pm

    Including April?

    Yes including April, because Trout for 5 months > Cabrera for 6. It showed up in the win totals, and in Trouts stats

  131. saucY November 15th, 2012 at 4:20 pm

    I think Trout deserves it more and hope he wins.

    that is all…..

  132. Duh Innings II November 15th, 2012 at 6:00 pm

    ‘Love how Theo Epstein is out-general managing Brian Cashman.

    He signs Scott Baker for a year and $5.5M base then Dioner Navarro who has a career 30% success rate.

    Cashman? He claims Eli Whiteside off waivers. What a joke.

    Can we trade Cashman for Epstein?

  133. Duh Innings II November 15th, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    Navarro has a career 30% success rate throwing out basestealers.


Sponsored by:
 

Search

    Advertisement

    Follow

    Mobile

    Read The LoHud Yankees Blog on the go by navigating to the blog on your smartphone or mobile device's browser. No apps or downloads are required.

Advertisement

Place an ad

Call (914) 694-3581